"Fighting is in their nature."
September 19, 2011 4:18 PM Subscribe
Afghans unapologetically cheer on dogfights. 'The blood sport, technically illegal, is lucrative and popular even among government officials. In a culture accustomed to violence, few see it as barbaric.'
The dogs, 'Kuchis, which take their name from a nomadic tribe, can weigh as much as 175 pounds, their backs as tall as 3 feet. Bred to guard livestock and kill wolves, they're said to be naturally aggressive.'
'"I used to beat my dogs to make them tougher," said Ahamad, sporting a neatly trimmed beard and a green vest over his traditional shalwar kameez. "But they'd get so scared. They'd pee when they saw me, so I stopped."
Animal welfare is a rather foreign concept in Afghanistan. There's little history of keeping pets in this country, which traditionally has had barely enough to feed itself, with animals expected to plow, guard or otherwise earn their keep. And many Muslims consider dogs unclean.
Three decades of war has made brutality part of life's daily fabric, analysts said, not to mention the residual effect of years living under the Taliban, which killed dogs and beat their owners (although dog owners said betting on fights continued in secret).'
'Not all Afghans are fans of dogfights.
"It's not instinct that makes them fight and bleed; they're trained that way," said Ramin Raha, 25, a music student. "Not that I necessarily blame their owners. With no human rights in Afghanistan, how can you expect animal rights?"
Ahamad and Qadir said they each keep two dogs, their best prospect and a second in case the first one loses. After a loss, dogs are often abandoned to avoid the expense of feeding them. Owners say it's a blessing because they're finally free. Animal lovers say it sentences them to a life of subsistence, disease and fighting.'
The dogs, 'Kuchis, which take their name from a nomadic tribe, can weigh as much as 175 pounds, their backs as tall as 3 feet. Bred to guard livestock and kill wolves, they're said to be naturally aggressive.'
'"I used to beat my dogs to make them tougher," said Ahamad, sporting a neatly trimmed beard and a green vest over his traditional shalwar kameez. "But they'd get so scared. They'd pee when they saw me, so I stopped."
Animal welfare is a rather foreign concept in Afghanistan. There's little history of keeping pets in this country, which traditionally has had barely enough to feed itself, with animals expected to plow, guard or otherwise earn their keep. And many Muslims consider dogs unclean.
Three decades of war has made brutality part of life's daily fabric, analysts said, not to mention the residual effect of years living under the Taliban, which killed dogs and beat their owners (although dog owners said betting on fights continued in secret).'
'Not all Afghans are fans of dogfights.
"It's not instinct that makes them fight and bleed; they're trained that way," said Ramin Raha, 25, a music student. "Not that I necessarily blame their owners. With no human rights in Afghanistan, how can you expect animal rights?"
Ahamad and Qadir said they each keep two dogs, their best prospect and a second in case the first one loses. After a loss, dogs are often abandoned to avoid the expense of feeding them. Owners say it's a blessing because they're finally free. Animal lovers say it sentences them to a life of subsistence, disease and fighting.'
This post was deleted for the following reason: The combination of animal abuse and odd leading headline make this post a poor fit for MetaFilter and a thread that is going poorly. -- jessamyn
cue the Michael Vick comments...
and, let me be the first to say... fuck them.
posted by tomswift at 4:24 PM on September 19, 2011
and, let me be the first to say... fuck them.
posted by tomswift at 4:24 PM on September 19, 2011
"With no human rights in Afghanistan, how can you expect animal rights?"
Can I expect both?
posted by Malice at 4:25 PM on September 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
Can I expect both?
posted by Malice at 4:25 PM on September 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
Yep, I found that statement odd as well.. I'm not sure which is the cart and which is the horse as we compare/contrast human vs. animal rights...
posted by tomswift at 4:26 PM on September 19, 2011
posted by tomswift at 4:26 PM on September 19, 2011
and, let me be the first to say... fuck them.
They've already been fucked by the West enough to last a thousand lifetimes.
posted by blucevalo at 4:28 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
They've already been fucked by the West enough to last a thousand lifetimes.
posted by blucevalo at 4:28 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
"They've already been fucked by the West enough to last a thousand lifetimes."...
Doesn't give a free pass to abuse dogs....
posted by tomswift at 4:31 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Doesn't give a free pass to abuse dogs....
posted by tomswift at 4:31 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
For happier Afghan dog news, see also, One Dog At A Time by Pen Farthing
posted by IndigoJones at 4:32 PM on September 19, 2011
posted by IndigoJones at 4:32 PM on September 19, 2011
I had thought dogs were considered unclean etc
"The story of extreme cruelty raises the question of the source of this belief that dogs are "unclean." Actually, there are "sectarians" like even the American Sharia-supremacist KA El Fadl who seem to like dogs.
But mainstream Islam draws on the following sources in regarding dogs as filthy:
From Sahih Bukhari, the "rightly guided" course of action is rather clear!:
Narrated Abu Talha:
The Prophet said, "Angels do not enter a house witch has either a dog or a picture in it."
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If somebody keeps a dog, he loses one Qirat (of the reward) of his good deeds everyday, except if he keeps it for the purpose of agriculture or for the protection of livestock. "
Narrated Sufyan bin Abi Zuhair Ash-Shani:
That he heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If somebody keeps a dog that is neither used for farm work nor for guarding the livestock, he will lose one Qirat (of the reward) of his good deeds everyday."
"
posted by Postroad at 4:34 PM on September 19, 2011
"The story of extreme cruelty raises the question of the source of this belief that dogs are "unclean." Actually, there are "sectarians" like even the American Sharia-supremacist KA El Fadl who seem to like dogs.
But mainstream Islam draws on the following sources in regarding dogs as filthy:
From Sahih Bukhari, the "rightly guided" course of action is rather clear!:
Narrated Abu Talha:
The Prophet said, "Angels do not enter a house witch has either a dog or a picture in it."
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If somebody keeps a dog, he loses one Qirat (of the reward) of his good deeds everyday, except if he keeps it for the purpose of agriculture or for the protection of livestock. "
Narrated Sufyan bin Abi Zuhair Ash-Shani:
That he heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If somebody keeps a dog that is neither used for farm work nor for guarding the livestock, he will lose one Qirat (of the reward) of his good deeds everyday."
"
posted by Postroad at 4:34 PM on September 19, 2011
Yep, I found that statement odd as well.. I'm not sure which is the cart and which is the horse as we compare/contrast human vs. animal rights...
It's called Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:40 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
It's called Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:40 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
When dogs are in short supply, they stick fur on preteen boys and make them spar.
posted by Renoroc at 4:41 PM on September 19, 2011
posted by Renoroc at 4:41 PM on September 19, 2011
Doesn't give a free pass to abuse dogs....
What gave us a free pass to destroy their country for three decades and then complain about behavior that happens in our own backyard? I find it strange to complain about animal rights when we don't respect human rights. If dog fighting was -- and of course, it isn't -- the worst thing the Afghanis did, they would still be much better than we are.
posted by notion at 4:42 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
What gave us a free pass to destroy their country for three decades and then complain about behavior that happens in our own backyard? I find it strange to complain about animal rights when we don't respect human rights. If dog fighting was -- and of course, it isn't -- the worst thing the Afghanis did, they would still be much better than we are.
posted by notion at 4:42 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
cue the Michael Vick comments...
Uh-huh. Culture plays a role in how people treat animals. This is an example of it. But hey, there are other fun games:
The steppes' people were skilled riders who could grab a goat or calf from the ground while riding a horse at full gallop. The goal of a player is to grab the carcass of a headless goat or calf and then get it clear of the other players and pitch it across a goal line or into a target circle or vat.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:43 PM on September 19, 2011
Uh-huh. Culture plays a role in how people treat animals. This is an example of it. But hey, there are other fun games:
The steppes' people were skilled riders who could grab a goat or calf from the ground while riding a horse at full gallop. The goal of a player is to grab the carcass of a headless goat or calf and then get it clear of the other players and pitch it across a goal line or into a target circle or vat.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:43 PM on September 19, 2011
Yeah, but the carcass of a headless goat makes for a shitty pet and is totally not cute at all.
posted by Hoopo at 4:52 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Hoopo at 4:52 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
tomswift: Doesn't give a free pass to abuse dogs....
No, it doesn't, but when your country and its people have been repeatedly bombed, raped, and pillaged by others, with no sustainable rehabilitation, it's not hard to understand why many Afghans find this disgusting practice acceptable. Unfortunately, respect is gained through power, and power is attained through money and might, epecially in a country like Afghanistan. It's all many of them know. And I say this as a dog person.
posted by gman at 4:52 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
No, it doesn't, but when your country and its people have been repeatedly bombed, raped, and pillaged by others, with no sustainable rehabilitation, it's not hard to understand why many Afghans find this disgusting practice acceptable. Unfortunately, respect is gained through power, and power is attained through money and might, epecially in a country like Afghanistan. It's all many of them know. And I say this as a dog person.
posted by gman at 4:52 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
and, let me be the first to say... fuck them.
Of course, exactly the same article could (and has been) written about the USA and it's relationship with dog fighting as well.
So for consistency's sake, you need to add... 'and fuck us too.'
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:53 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Of course, exactly the same article could (and has been) written about the USA and it's relationship with dog fighting as well.
So for consistency's sake, you need to add... 'and fuck us too.'
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:53 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Please note, the "fuck them" was not directed towards Afghans in general, but against dog fighters.. I could give a shit what nationality they are.
posted by tomswift at 4:59 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by tomswift at 4:59 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
So for consistency's sake, you need to add... 'and fuck us too.'
What an utter load of horseshit. Unlike Afghanistan, dog fighting is simply not accepted as a popular or even remotely humane form of entertainment in the United States. Full stop.
posted by dhammond at 5:15 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
What an utter load of horseshit. Unlike Afghanistan, dog fighting is simply not accepted as a popular or even remotely humane form of entertainment in the United States. Full stop.
posted by dhammond at 5:15 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
We do much crueler things to the commercial farm animals we eat. It's fair to criticize this, but let's not pretend we're angels either. And we don't even have generations of endemic poverty as an excuse.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:16 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 5:16 PM on September 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Sorry. That was very US-centric of me. I meant that last comment in reference to Americans and others in the West.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:18 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by saulgoodman at 5:18 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Of course, exactly the same article could (and has been) written about the USA and it's relationship with dog fighting as well."
... and factory farming.
posted by wondrous strange snow at 5:28 PM on September 19, 2011
... and factory farming.
posted by wondrous strange snow at 5:28 PM on September 19, 2011
We do much crueler things to the commercial farm animals we eat.
Yeah but at least there's a pretense of a rationalization there in that eating animals actually utilizes them for some vaguely productive purpose.
No-holds-barred cruelty and murder of animals purely for entertainment value? There's a qualitative difference there, even if our behavior is pretty fucking terrible, too.
posted by Ryvar at 5:29 PM on September 19, 2011
Yeah but at least there's a pretense of a rationalization there in that eating animals actually utilizes them for some vaguely productive purpose.
No-holds-barred cruelty and murder of animals purely for entertainment value? There's a qualitative difference there, even if our behavior is pretty fucking terrible, too.
posted by Ryvar at 5:29 PM on September 19, 2011
According to some of the training my wife got in dental school a couple of years ago, child-abuse laws grew out of animal abuse laws. I believe they were told one story about a case in NYC where the child welfare advocates brought animal control in on a case, and got a judge to award the child to the animal control organization, because they proved that if the child had been an animal that is what would have happened. A cursory search brings up this:
In the early 1870s, child abuse captured the nation's attention with news that an eight-year-old orphan named Mary Ellen Wilson was suffering daily whippings and beatings at her foster home. With no organization in existence to protect abused children, the orphan's plight fell to attorneys for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA). These attorneys argued that laws protecting animals from abuse should not be greater than laws protecting children. Mary Ellen Wilson's case went before a judge, who convicted the foster mother of ASSAULT AND BATTERY and gave her a one year sentence. More significantly, the orphan's case generated enough outrage over child abuse that in 1874, citizens formed the New York Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children.
posted by postel's law at 5:32 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
In the early 1870s, child abuse captured the nation's attention with news that an eight-year-old orphan named Mary Ellen Wilson was suffering daily whippings and beatings at her foster home. With no organization in existence to protect abused children, the orphan's plight fell to attorneys for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA). These attorneys argued that laws protecting animals from abuse should not be greater than laws protecting children. Mary Ellen Wilson's case went before a judge, who convicted the foster mother of ASSAULT AND BATTERY and gave her a one year sentence. More significantly, the orphan's case generated enough outrage over child abuse that in 1874, citizens formed the New York Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children.
posted by postel's law at 5:32 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
a pretense of a rationalization
The best justification ever. A pretense of a rationalization!
posted by xmutex at 5:42 PM on September 19, 2011
The best justification ever. A pretense of a rationalization!
posted by xmutex at 5:42 PM on September 19, 2011
Let me get this straight. Americans kill Afghan civilians with bombs and drone strikes, and then Americans call Afghans 'cruel' and 'inhumane' for watching dogs fight?
posted by grounded at 5:49 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by grounded at 5:49 PM on September 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
So... what are we supposed to do with this post exactly? Get outraged and THEN do nothing? They beat dogs to make them meaner? Why do you think Afghans act this way? It's not because they're genetically bad people, they are a beaten society. Dog fighting is VERY common in poorer countries. When people's lives aren't valued, they don't value other lives. It is sad all around, but trying to fix THIS will not happen until we fix that other thing first.
posted by lubujackson at 5:51 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by lubujackson at 5:51 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Let me get this straight. Americans kill Afghan civilians with bombs and drone strikes, and then Americans call Afghans 'cruel' and 'inhumane' for watching dogs fight?"
nope... you didn't get it "straight"...wanna try again?
posted by tomswift at 5:52 PM on September 19, 2011
nope... you didn't get it "straight"...wanna try again?
posted by tomswift at 5:52 PM on September 19, 2011
Tribal elders also molest adolescent boys.
Let's just say it's not all peaches and cream over there.
Also, their version of "unclean" if far different from ours.
posted by Bridymurphy at 6:02 PM on September 19, 2011
Let's just say it's not all peaches and cream over there.
Also, their version of "unclean" if far different from ours.
posted by Bridymurphy at 6:02 PM on September 19, 2011
So my parents (and aunts and uncles, etc) grew up in Afghanistan, and they are almost all weird about dogs. By which I mean they are either scared of them and/or think they're unclean. All my efforts to convince my parents otherwise are for naught. Apparently one too many of my relatives had the unfortunate experience of being chased or bitten by a feral street dog when they were kids. Now though, a few of my aunts and uncles do have dogs as pets, albeit the tiny, harmless dogs. They like the companionship since their kids are all grown up. My parents only knew one person who had a pet dog in Afghanistan, a distant cousin of some sort. And that ended badly too, albeit Fry's dog badly, and not awful dog fights badly. (If anyone is interested in a hideously depressing dog story, I can tell it, but it is basically as depressing as Jurassic Bark, fyi.)
I think the different attitude towards pets, and especially dogs, is definitely a cultural thing. That obviously doesn't excuse this kind of horrific treatment of dogs, but just something to keep in mind: keeping a dog as a pet is really rare in Afghanistan. The way your average American treats a beloved pet as a member of the family is a very foreign thing to your average Afghan, not least because your average Afghan is struggling to put food on the table and eke out a living in terrible conditions.
posted by yasaman at 6:03 PM on September 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
I think the different attitude towards pets, and especially dogs, is definitely a cultural thing. That obviously doesn't excuse this kind of horrific treatment of dogs, but just something to keep in mind: keeping a dog as a pet is really rare in Afghanistan. The way your average American treats a beloved pet as a member of the family is a very foreign thing to your average Afghan, not least because your average Afghan is struggling to put food on the table and eke out a living in terrible conditions.
posted by yasaman at 6:03 PM on September 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
No, it doesn't, but when your country and its people have been repeatedly bombed, raped, and pillaged by others, with no sustainable rehabilitation, it's not hard to understand why many Afghans find this disgusting practice acceptable.
Oh please.
"Oh, Allah no! I only started this in 2001, after the Americans came. Before that, I ran an RSPCA outlet and a shelter for battered women!"
"I ran a record store and organised workshops with prominent atheist philopsophers!"
"I campaigned for children's rights and democratic elections!"
"...."
"AAHHAAHAAAAAAHHHAH! We're kidding! Oh, your face!"
posted by obiwanwasabi at 6:15 PM on September 19, 2011
Oh please.
"Oh, Allah no! I only started this in 2001, after the Americans came. Before that, I ran an RSPCA outlet and a shelter for battered women!"
"I ran a record store and organised workshops with prominent atheist philopsophers!"
"I campaigned for children's rights and democratic elections!"
"...."
"AAHHAAHAAAAAAHHHAH! We're kidding! Oh, your face!"
posted by obiwanwasabi at 6:15 PM on September 19, 2011
obiwanwasabi: Oh please.
"Oh, Allah no! I only started this in 2001, after the Americans came. Before that, I ran an RSPCA outlet and a shelter for battered women!"
"I ran a record store and organised workshops with prominent atheist philopsophers!"
Two thousand and what? I didn't say a damn word about the United States or post-9/11.
posted by gman at 6:24 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Oh, Allah no! I only started this in 2001, after the Americans came. Before that, I ran an RSPCA outlet and a shelter for battered women!"
"I ran a record store and organised workshops with prominent atheist philopsophers!"
Two thousand and what? I didn't say a damn word about the United States or post-9/11.
posted by gman at 6:24 PM on September 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
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