"I Will Never Again Harm Another Human Being"
October 14, 2011 4:52 AM Subscribe
Over the objections of federal prosecutors and Ronald Reagan's family, John Hinckley, Jr. is on the verge of freedom. "Which should prevail—the belief that anyone who tries to kill a President should never be free? Or a judicial system that rests on laws that spell out pathways to wellness and freedom for people deemed mentally ill when they commit violent acts?"
Which should prevail—the belief that anyone who tries to kill a President should never be free?
Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, a follower of Charles Manson, was released in 2009 having served 24 years for pointing a loaded gun at Gerald Ford.
Granted she didn't actually shoot him, but was convicted of an assassination attempt all the same.
posted by three blind mice at 5:04 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, a follower of Charles Manson, was released in 2009 having served 24 years for pointing a loaded gun at Gerald Ford.
Granted she didn't actually shoot him, but was convicted of an assassination attempt all the same.
posted by three blind mice at 5:04 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, the key fact is that he's a Gemini and they're very changeable.
posted by Wolfdog at 5:10 AM on October 14, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by Wolfdog at 5:10 AM on October 14, 2011 [5 favorites]
Granted she didn't actually shoot him ...
Only because the gun didn't fire when she pulled the trigger.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:11 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Only because the gun didn't fire when she pulled the trigger.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:11 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, the key fact is that he's a Gemini and they're very changeable.
I always thought too little attention was given to the Egg McMuffin wolfing but now, thank God, this article has set the record straight.
posted by Abiezer at 5:12 AM on October 14, 2011
I always thought too little attention was given to the Egg McMuffin wolfing but now, thank God, this article has set the record straight.
posted by Abiezer at 5:12 AM on October 14, 2011
So, let's ask the candidates for the republican nomination what they think about....
posted by R. Mutt at 5:17 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by R. Mutt at 5:17 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Only because the gun didn't fire when she pulled the trigger.
She didn't have a round in the chamber.
I am not a fan of Pope John Paul II - who was a friend of Reagan and also the victim of an assassination attempt by Mehmet Ali Ağca - but here again is another instance where the good Christians could learn something.
To his credit, after he was shot JPII didn't hesitate to forgive his assailant and asked people to "pray for my brother (Ağca), whom I have sincerely forgiven." JPII corresponded with Ağca, he visited him in prison, and he also corresponded and met with his family and did not oppose his release from prison.
posted by three blind mice at 5:22 AM on October 14, 2011 [21 favorites]
She didn't have a round in the chamber.
I am not a fan of Pope John Paul II - who was a friend of Reagan and also the victim of an assassination attempt by Mehmet Ali Ağca - but here again is another instance where the good Christians could learn something.
To his credit, after he was shot JPII didn't hesitate to forgive his assailant and asked people to "pray for my brother (Ağca), whom I have sincerely forgiven." JPII corresponded with Ağca, he visited him in prison, and he also corresponded and met with his family and did not oppose his release from prison.
posted by three blind mice at 5:22 AM on October 14, 2011 [21 favorites]
I had a photo of some graffiti- "FIRST THE GOOD NEWS: REAGAN'S BEEN SHOT. NOW THE BAD NEWS: HE'S STILL ALIVE".
posted by dunkadunc at 5:23 AM on October 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by dunkadunc at 5:23 AM on October 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
American Prisons: Punishment or Reformation?
posted by blue_beetle at 5:37 AM on October 14, 2011
posted by blue_beetle at 5:37 AM on October 14, 2011
American Prisons: Punishment or Reformation?
"We have no idea!"
posted by josher71 at 5:37 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
"We have no idea!"
posted by josher71 at 5:37 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
Another ten years for missing!
posted by telstar at 5:38 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by telstar at 5:38 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
I was playing a few blocks from the "Hinckley Hilton*" on that day. A man came running down the road shouting, "The President's been shot! The President's been shot!" I told my dad, who told me to ignore him as he was clearly a kook. Then we headed out to go to the Air and Space museum, but we couldn't get more than a short distance down the street before a cop stopped us and said, "you can't go through there, don't you know the President's been shot?"
Is till file that away as one of those little moments where you see yourself growing up. I was right and my dad was the one who had to admit it!
*As it has ever since been called by locals
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 5:39 AM on October 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
Is till file that away as one of those little moments where you see yourself growing up. I was right and my dad was the one who had to admit it!
*As it has ever since been called by locals
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 5:39 AM on October 14, 2011 [7 favorites]
One of my favourite sick jokes has always been, i don't know how people think Hinkley is crazy, he wanted to kill Reagan and fuck Jodie Foster.
Now that I have that out of the way, John Waters new book has a long essay about Leslie Van Houten, the essay is really interesting and about a bunch of things--about the possibility of redemption, about treating prisoners like people, but mostly about how it seems that the more notorious a crime, the less we are willing to acknowledge that forgiveness can actually happen, or even mental illness's effects.
posted by PinkMoose at 5:46 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Now that I have that out of the way, John Waters new book has a long essay about Leslie Van Houten, the essay is really interesting and about a bunch of things--about the possibility of redemption, about treating prisoners like people, but mostly about how it seems that the more notorious a crime, the less we are willing to acknowledge that forgiveness can actually happen, or even mental illness's effects.
posted by PinkMoose at 5:46 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
If Panic Room and Nell came out in the 80s, Hinckley wouldn't have done so much as tied Reagans shoelaces together.
posted by dr_dank at 5:46 AM on October 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 5:46 AM on October 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
So long as he is cured or at least he has managed his illness to such an extent he is not a danger to himself and others, yeah, he has got to be freed. In a sense I am glad that the fact that he tried to kill the president hasn't factored in this - except in the court of public opinion.
But I am also dismayed because if Hinckley wasn't a scion of a wealthy connected family, not only would he likely not even be considered for release, but I am guessing might not have been able to successfully use an insanity defense.
I mean this guy is in prison. Not to minimize his crime or the pain the victim's family went through, however, it seems to me this is a textbook reason for the insanity defense. The guy was practically begging to live in a psych hospital because he couldn't control himself, but he isn't making lanyards in St. Elizabeth and likely will never be released from prison. Nobody is arguing that the guy isn't dangerous, but well, he should be in the NYS equivalent of St. Elizabeth's.
posted by xetere at 5:49 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
But I am also dismayed because if Hinckley wasn't a scion of a wealthy connected family, not only would he likely not even be considered for release, but I am guessing might not have been able to successfully use an insanity defense.
I mean this guy is in prison. Not to minimize his crime or the pain the victim's family went through, however, it seems to me this is a textbook reason for the insanity defense. The guy was practically begging to live in a psych hospital because he couldn't control himself, but he isn't making lanyards in St. Elizabeth and likely will never be released from prison. Nobody is arguing that the guy isn't dangerous, but well, he should be in the NYS equivalent of St. Elizabeth's.
posted by xetere at 5:49 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
Panic Room, and her performance in Panic Room was genius.
posted by PinkMoose at 5:50 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by PinkMoose at 5:50 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
So was he insane? Or just evil? Or just dumb?
I question the idea that he should have been in prison in the first place. I think a hospital for the criminally insane might have been a better choice.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:50 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I question the idea that he should have been in prison in the first place. I think a hospital for the criminally insane might have been a better choice.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:50 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
OH MAN. CANCEL THAT.
My bad, he was in a hospital for the insane. Well alrighty then.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:52 AM on October 14, 2011
My bad, he was in a hospital for the insane. Well alrighty then.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:52 AM on October 14, 2011
Hinckley was immediately confined to the maximum-security John Howard Pavilion at St. Elizabeths. The hospital barred him from making phone calls or walking the grounds, but he could write letters.
“The shooting outside the Washington Hilton hotel was the greatest love offering in the history of the world,” he wrote to the New York Times. “At one time Miss Foster was a star and I was the insignificant fan. Now everything is changed. I am Napoleon and she is Josephine. I am Romeo and she is Juliet.”
If I read that last part in the voice of Pepe Le Pew it doesn't sound crazy at all.
Oh Jodie, you are ze corned beef to me, and I am ze cabbage to you.
posted by three blind mice at 6:02 AM on October 14, 2011 [5 favorites]
“The shooting outside the Washington Hilton hotel was the greatest love offering in the history of the world,” he wrote to the New York Times. “At one time Miss Foster was a star and I was the insignificant fan. Now everything is changed. I am Napoleon and she is Josephine. I am Romeo and she is Juliet.”
If I read that last part in the voice of Pepe Le Pew it doesn't sound crazy at all.
Oh Jodie, you are ze corned beef to me, and I am ze cabbage to you.
posted by three blind mice at 6:02 AM on October 14, 2011 [5 favorites]
Hinckley wasn't a hero, and wouldn't have necessarily become one had he succeeded, but Ronald Reagan was a villain. All the kids in third grade math class cheered when the principal told us over the loudspeaker. I think the teacher was a touch embarrassed. Then again, when our class held a mock election John Anderson won by a landslide. A change we could believe in. We were wiser than our parents.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 6:03 AM on October 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 6:03 AM on October 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
Obviously we can never release Hinckley. He might try to kill Reagan again!
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:04 AM on October 14, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:04 AM on October 14, 2011 [11 favorites]
Of course they can't release him. Nobody wants to be The One Upon Whose Watch Hinckley Was Released.
The really great thing will be when the CYA approach will be to assume people are innocent until they are proven guilty.
posted by DU at 6:07 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
The really great thing will be when the CYA approach will be to assume people are innocent until they are proven guilty.
posted by DU at 6:07 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
"All the kids in third grade math class cheered when the principal told us over the loudspeaker. I think the teacher was a touch embarrassed. "
I, too, was in math class (8th grade, Algebra I) when the announcement was made, and there were cheers in my class as well. Our teacher, however, went off on an impressive tirade about what a great man Reagan was and how dare a bunch of snot-nosed brats cheer the news that he had been shot. I always thought he would have made a better point about respecting the office instead of allowing his personal views to take over, but I was only 13 so what did I know?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:12 AM on October 14, 2011
I, too, was in math class (8th grade, Algebra I) when the announcement was made, and there were cheers in my class as well. Our teacher, however, went off on an impressive tirade about what a great man Reagan was and how dare a bunch of snot-nosed brats cheer the news that he had been shot. I always thought he would have made a better point about respecting the office instead of allowing his personal views to take over, but I was only 13 so what did I know?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:12 AM on October 14, 2011
On of the real tragedies of the whole Hinckley mess is that it caused a change in federal and a lot of state laws to make it harder to be found not guilty based on an insanity defense, with pretty serious consequences for people like Jared Laughner, who would probably have had a good shot at being found insane in the early 80s. A few states abolished it altogether, which seems like complete madness, especially considering this was all based on a case where people were pissed off about who the defendant tried to kill, rather than his actual mental health.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:14 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:14 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
Of course they can't release him.
Obama can pardon him. It's not like it would lower his dismal approval ratings and he's gonna need that vote.
posted by three blind mice at 6:21 AM on October 14, 2011 [9 favorites]
Obama can pardon him. It's not like it would lower his dismal approval ratings and he's gonna need that vote.
posted by three blind mice at 6:21 AM on October 14, 2011 [9 favorites]
I was 14 then. When my father came home from work that night, I told him I was extra-glad to see him. Being a pedagogic sort, he asked me if I understood why. I said because the President is a father figure. He said that was correct and I felt glad for having gotten the answer right. He said that anyone who would attempt to assassinate a US President would have to be insane.
posted by Trurl at 6:25 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Trurl at 6:25 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
When my father came home from work that night, I told him I was extra-glad to see him. Being a pedagogic sort, he asked me if I understood why. I said because the President is a father figure.
FATHER: YOUR COMPUTATION IS CORRECT.
SON: THANK YOU, FATHER.
FATHER: ...THIS UNSEEMLY DISPLAY OF EMOTION IS UNBECOMING.
posted by DU at 6:34 AM on October 14, 2011 [43 favorites]
FATHER: YOUR COMPUTATION IS CORRECT.
SON: THANK YOU, FATHER.
FATHER: ...THIS UNSEEMLY DISPLAY OF EMOTION IS UNBECOMING.
posted by DU at 6:34 AM on October 14, 2011 [43 favorites]
I've always enjoyed the "Shots from the Bushy Knoll" chapter in Jonathan Vankin's Conspiracies, Cover-ups and Crimes. One of the claims is that on the night of the assassination attempt Neil Bush had a dinner appointment with Scott Hinkley, John Hinkley's brother.
Sadly, the Lizard People are not invoked in this explanation.
==========
"In the original trial, prosecutors argued that Hinckley was sane and responsible for his actions and should go to jail; now they argue he’s insane and should not be released from the mental-health system."
==========
Sadly, the Lizard People are not invoked in this explanation, either.
posted by warbaby at 6:48 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sadly, the Lizard People are not invoked in this explanation.
==========
"In the original trial, prosecutors argued that Hinckley was sane and responsible for his actions and should go to jail; now they argue he’s insane and should not be released from the mental-health system."
==========
Sadly, the Lizard People are not invoked in this explanation, either.
posted by warbaby at 6:48 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
In principle, I'd really like to see him walk free.
But....
In actuality, this is a patient with a clear history of lying to/manipulating and outright fooling his psychiatrists. The article says that in 1987, his psychiatrist, Glenn Miller, testified that Hinckley was no longer obsessed with Jodie Foster and hadn't been for three years. The Judge ordered that Hinckley's room be searched, and that search turned up 57 photos of the actress. Oops.
So okay, that was 20+ years ago. He's been in treatment for two decades since.
But the article also says that he is "obsessive" and stalkerish towards women, and backs up the claim with quite a bit of anecdotal evidence. A hospital pharmacist. Leslie DeVeau. Other girlfriends. His mom's quote about DeVeau seems telling, "Leslie 'handles so many of John’s problems. She’s just been our angel.'"
Politics aside, are we as sure as we can be that he's not a danger to others? Shouldn't that be where the question of "should he be freed?" begins and ends?
It's a thorough editorial, but I feel like the author made up his mind and tried to build a case, (the title is "Free John Hinckley") instead of giving us a more clinical, objective framing of the situation.
posted by zarq at 6:50 AM on October 14, 2011 [14 favorites]
But....
In actuality, this is a patient with a clear history of lying to/manipulating and outright fooling his psychiatrists. The article says that in 1987, his psychiatrist, Glenn Miller, testified that Hinckley was no longer obsessed with Jodie Foster and hadn't been for three years. The Judge ordered that Hinckley's room be searched, and that search turned up 57 photos of the actress. Oops.
So okay, that was 20+ years ago. He's been in treatment for two decades since.
But the article also says that he is "obsessive" and stalkerish towards women, and backs up the claim with quite a bit of anecdotal evidence. A hospital pharmacist. Leslie DeVeau. Other girlfriends. His mom's quote about DeVeau seems telling, "Leslie 'handles so many of John’s problems. She’s just been our angel.'"
Politics aside, are we as sure as we can be that he's not a danger to others? Shouldn't that be where the question of "should he be freed?" begins and ends?
It's a thorough editorial, but I feel like the author made up his mind and tried to build a case, (the title is "Free John Hinckley") instead of giving us a more clinical, objective framing of the situation.
posted by zarq at 6:50 AM on October 14, 2011 [14 favorites]
I was in my back yard working on my bike when my very elderly neighbor poked her head over the fence. "Did you hear the news?" I looked at her blankly. "President Reagan has been shot -- by a Caucasian!"
When I told this story to a friend at work, he laughed, shook his head, and said "Send them all back to Caucasia!"
posted by Killick at 6:51 AM on October 14, 2011 [10 favorites]
When I told this story to a friend at work, he laughed, shook his head, and said "Send them all back to Caucasia!"
posted by Killick at 6:51 AM on October 14, 2011 [10 favorites]
I remember where I was when the assasunation attempt happened. I am NOT a fan of Reagan. I despise damn near all he stood for. That said, if someone even tries to kill the President, he or she needs to stay locked up. The Pope John Paul II example is all very well and good. I respected what the Pope was trying to do, however killing the president disrupts events terribly.
There are after-effects to both attempted and successful assassinations which are just totally awful.
I was not happy about them letting out Squeaky Fromme either. The only way I could be for letting someone like that out is total proof of innocence.
Assassination used to be a death penalty crime.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:53 AM on October 14, 2011
There are after-effects to both attempted and successful assassinations which are just totally awful.
I was not happy about them letting out Squeaky Fromme either. The only way I could be for letting someone like that out is total proof of innocence.
Assassination used to be a death penalty crime.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:53 AM on October 14, 2011
killing the president disrupts events terribly
I just pictured Rahm Emanuel saying, "I'm in charge here!"
That was a gruesome way to start the morning.
posted by Trurl at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
I just pictured Rahm Emanuel saying, "I'm in charge here!"
That was a gruesome way to start the morning.
posted by Trurl at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm no Reagan fan but I'm not convinced releasing Hinckley is the right move.
I have to wonder, given the outpatient medical system in this country, particularly with regard to mental health, whether Hinckley would get the care he needed to stay on the straight and narrow (or to enforce it if he's faking) once he gets out. Money can buy a lot but there are limits.
posted by immlass at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have to wonder, given the outpatient medical system in this country, particularly with regard to mental health, whether Hinckley would get the care he needed to stay on the straight and narrow (or to enforce it if he's faking) once he gets out. Money can buy a lot but there are limits.
posted by immlass at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Besides Reagan, three other men were shot in the incident. James Brady ended up in a wheelchair permanently. Hinckley deserves life incarceration.
posted by knoyers at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by knoyers at 7:00 AM on October 14, 2011 [6 favorites]
however killing the president disrupts events terribly.
No kidding. I just had a terrible, terrible thought: Imagine how horrible it would have been if Reagan was replaced by his VP and George Herbert Walker Bush became President.
We can really thank out lucky stars that that Hinckley guy was a bad shot.
posted by three blind mice at 7:05 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
No kidding. I just had a terrible, terrible thought: Imagine how horrible it would have been if Reagan was replaced by his VP and George Herbert Walker Bush became President.
We can really thank out lucky stars that that Hinckley guy was a bad shot.
posted by three blind mice at 7:05 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have to believe that Jodie Foster is just thrilled with the idea of that whackjob out on the streets again.
posted by TDavis at 7:06 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by TDavis at 7:06 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Trurl: " I just pictured Rahm Emanuel saying, "I'm in charge here!""
Line of Succession:
Obama
Biden
Boehner
Inouye
Clinton
Personally, I'd be more worried about #3 on the list than Emanuel.
posted by zarq at 7:06 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Line of Succession:
Obama
Biden
Boehner
Inouye
Clinton
Personally, I'd be more worried about #3 on the list than Emanuel.
posted by zarq at 7:06 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Katjusa Roquette: "Assassination used to be a death penalty crime."
In this case, Reagan was not assassinated. It was attempted assassination only. It's amazing to me how much Reagan's reputation grew into this legendary thing for the Republicans in the subsequent years after he was in office. While he was President, I remember him as this basically amiable guy who was good with the Press (former actor, no wonder), but really didn't accomplish much at all, other than the disastrous "trickle down" theory of Reaganomics. And he had a really tone-deaf sense of humor--nuclear strikes are not funny.
But what I remember most about the Hinckley Shooting when it happened (I was in school, too) was that Brady was declared dead, but then we had a true Monty Pythonesque "I'm not dead yet!" moment and he was alive after all. Back then, it seemed miraculous that he survived.
Even though Hinckley did not end any lives directly, Brady was paralyzed on that day, so Hinckley is responsible for putting a man in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. Which led to the Brady Bill, a very good thing for gun control which never would have passed if the shooting had not happened. It's bizarre how such awful things can bring about positive change.
posted by misha at 7:06 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
In this case, Reagan was not assassinated. It was attempted assassination only. It's amazing to me how much Reagan's reputation grew into this legendary thing for the Republicans in the subsequent years after he was in office. While he was President, I remember him as this basically amiable guy who was good with the Press (former actor, no wonder), but really didn't accomplish much at all, other than the disastrous "trickle down" theory of Reaganomics. And he had a really tone-deaf sense of humor--nuclear strikes are not funny.
But what I remember most about the Hinckley Shooting when it happened (I was in school, too) was that Brady was declared dead, but then we had a true Monty Pythonesque "I'm not dead yet!" moment and he was alive after all. Back then, it seemed miraculous that he survived.
Even though Hinckley did not end any lives directly, Brady was paralyzed on that day, so Hinckley is responsible for putting a man in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. Which led to the Brady Bill, a very good thing for gun control which never would have passed if the shooting had not happened. It's bizarre how such awful things can bring about positive change.
posted by misha at 7:06 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
If I were Brady or Foster or a Reagan, I would hope that Hinckley never ever ever got out.
From a distance, though, it looks like it's time to let him start working at a homeless shelter or the like, maybe with an ankle bracelet to make sure he spends his evenings at home whacking off to Jodie Foster movies and not sitting on a tree branch outside Jodie Foster's bedroom window, because he sure looks like a dangerous loon when he's off his medication and on a roll.
posted by pracowity at 7:10 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
From a distance, though, it looks like it's time to let him start working at a homeless shelter or the like, maybe with an ankle bracelet to make sure he spends his evenings at home whacking off to Jodie Foster movies and not sitting on a tree branch outside Jodie Foster's bedroom window, because he sure looks like a dangerous loon when he's off his medication and on a roll.
posted by pracowity at 7:10 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
misha: "but really didn't accomplish much at all"
No, he did. He really, really did.
His administration funded resistance movements against communism throughout the world, which led to destabilizing power struggles. Some of which helped bring about the fall of the Soviet Union. Others made bad situations far worse.
He ignored the AIDS crisis. That's not just a research funding issue. Educating the public about AIDS and HIV years earlier could have saved lives by letting people know there were precautions they could take to protect themselves.
By issuing an ultimatum to air traffic controllers during their strike, he defanged unions to a large degree and made strikes much less common, thus strengthening big business while weakening labor.
We're still feeling the effects of these decisions and acts 25 years after he left office.
posted by zarq at 7:20 AM on October 14, 2011 [11 favorites]
No, he did. He really, really did.
His administration funded resistance movements against communism throughout the world, which led to destabilizing power struggles. Some of which helped bring about the fall of the Soviet Union. Others made bad situations far worse.
He ignored the AIDS crisis. That's not just a research funding issue. Educating the public about AIDS and HIV years earlier could have saved lives by letting people know there were precautions they could take to protect themselves.
By issuing an ultimatum to air traffic controllers during their strike, he defanged unions to a large degree and made strikes much less common, thus strengthening big business while weakening labor.
We're still feeling the effects of these decisions and acts 25 years after he left office.
posted by zarq at 7:20 AM on October 14, 2011 [11 favorites]
I just pictured Rahm Emanuel saying, "I'm in charge here!" That was a gruesome way to start the morning.
Try living in Chicago. Gruesomer by the day.
posted by enn at 7:22 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Try living in Chicago. Gruesomer by the day.
posted by enn at 7:22 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
A: The belief that anyone who tries to kill a President should never be free.
posted by caddis at 7:22 AM on October 14, 2011
posted by caddis at 7:22 AM on October 14, 2011
President Reagan has been shot -- by a Caucasian! should have been recorded by the Dead Kennedys
posted by Ironmouth at 7:26 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 7:26 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Line of Succession:
Obama
Biden
Boehner
Inouye
Clinton
How far down the line of succession do you have to go before you get to mayors of midwestern cities?
posted by shakespeherian at 7:30 AM on October 14, 2011
Obama
Biden
Boehner
Inouye
Clinton
How far down the line of succession do you have to go before you get to mayors of midwestern cities?
posted by shakespeherian at 7:30 AM on October 14, 2011
Besides Reagan, three other men were shot in the incident. James Brady ended up in a wheelchair permanently. Hinckley deserves life incarceration.
In that case, you disagree with the original jury decision, which was that, by reason of insanity, Hinckley was not legally responsible for the shootings. He was not incarcerated because of the crime; he was incarcerated because his mental illness made him a threat to himself and/or others. The circumstances of the shooting are not relevant to the current question of Hinckley's release, because the shooting is not the the justification for his incarceration.
posted by layceepee at 7:40 AM on October 14, 2011 [6 favorites]
In that case, you disagree with the original jury decision, which was that, by reason of insanity, Hinckley was not legally responsible for the shootings. He was not incarcerated because of the crime; he was incarcerated because his mental illness made him a threat to himself and/or others. The circumstances of the shooting are not relevant to the current question of Hinckley's release, because the shooting is not the the justification for his incarceration.
posted by layceepee at 7:40 AM on October 14, 2011 [6 favorites]
shakespeherian: " How far down the line of succession do you have to go before you get to mayors of midwestern cities?"
Hopefully Chicago is at the very bottom of whatever list exists.
posted by zarq at 7:40 AM on October 14, 2011
Hopefully Chicago is at the very bottom of whatever list exists.
posted by zarq at 7:40 AM on October 14, 2011
I'm sort of disappointed the line of succession ends at Napolitano. Not that I've got anything against her. But I had somehow imagined that the rules would amount to a total order over the entire federal government, such that some schlub in an agency office somewhere could proudly claim to be the very last person in line for the presidency.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:46 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:46 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
I like to believe there is a line of succession that would end up with me as president. Like 90% of the population is somehow incapacitated, maybe by some sort of alien stasis fields, and everyone else is like "fuck it, let's give this guy a shot, can't get much worse". Gin Rickeys for everyone! I don't even like gin but seems like a cool drink for everyone to try.
posted by Ad hominem at 7:53 AM on October 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by Ad hominem at 7:53 AM on October 14, 2011 [8 favorites]
In that case, you disagree with the original jury decision,
"The verdict of "not guilty" for reason of insanity in the 1982 trial of John Hinckley, Jr. for his attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan stunned and outraged many Americans. An ABC News poll taken the day after the verdict showed 83% of those polled thought "justice was not done" in the Hinckley case. Some people--without much evidence--attributed the verdict to an anti-Reagan bias on the part the Washington, D. C. jury of eleven blacks and one white. Many more people, however, blamed a legal system that they claimed made it too easy for juries to return "not guilty" verdicts in insanity cases--despite the fact that such pleas were made in only 2% of felony cases and failed over 75% of the time. Public pressure resulting from the Hinckley verdict spurred Congress and most states into enacting major reforms of laws governing the use of the insanity defense.
The Hinckley trial highlights the difficulty of a system that forces jurors to label a defendant either "sane" or "insane" when the defendant may in fact be close to the middle on a spectrum ranging from Star Trek's Mr. Spock to the person who strangles his wife thinking that he's squeezing a grapefruit." (emphasis added)
It would seem after almost three decades of incarceration that the mental health professionals in are in a better position in 2011 than the jury in 1982 to determine Hinckley's mental state.
Gin Rickeys for everyone!
That gets my vote. Ad hominen for President.
For me it's 1700 CET on a FRIDAY. It's boozing time..... TBM out.
posted by three blind mice at 7:59 AM on October 14, 2011
"The verdict of "not guilty" for reason of insanity in the 1982 trial of John Hinckley, Jr. for his attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan stunned and outraged many Americans. An ABC News poll taken the day after the verdict showed 83% of those polled thought "justice was not done" in the Hinckley case. Some people--without much evidence--attributed the verdict to an anti-Reagan bias on the part the Washington, D. C. jury of eleven blacks and one white. Many more people, however, blamed a legal system that they claimed made it too easy for juries to return "not guilty" verdicts in insanity cases--despite the fact that such pleas were made in only 2% of felony cases and failed over 75% of the time. Public pressure resulting from the Hinckley verdict spurred Congress and most states into enacting major reforms of laws governing the use of the insanity defense.
The Hinckley trial highlights the difficulty of a system that forces jurors to label a defendant either "sane" or "insane" when the defendant may in fact be close to the middle on a spectrum ranging from Star Trek's Mr. Spock to the person who strangles his wife thinking that he's squeezing a grapefruit." (emphasis added)
It would seem after almost three decades of incarceration that the mental health professionals in are in a better position in 2011 than the jury in 1982 to determine Hinckley's mental state.
Gin Rickeys for everyone!
That gets my vote. Ad hominen for President.
For me it's 1700 CET on a FRIDAY. It's boozing time..... TBM out.
posted by three blind mice at 7:59 AM on October 14, 2011
How far down the line of succession do you have to go before you get to mayors of midwestern cities?
Let me check:
1: President
2: Vice President
...
65611: Director General of SeaWorld
65612 through 65613: The hosts of Cash Cab
65614 through 65632: Mayors of major cities on the Eastern Seaboard
65233 through 65644: Mayors of Midwestern cities
65645 through 65685: Other mayors
65686: Stanley Tucci
posted by Iridic at 7:59 AM on October 14, 2011 [13 favorites]
Let me check:
1: President
2: Vice President
...
65611: Director General of SeaWorld
65612 through 65613: The hosts of Cash Cab
65614 through 65632: Mayors of major cities on the Eastern Seaboard
65233 through 65644: Mayors of Midwestern cities
65645 through 65685: Other mayors
65686: Stanley Tucci
posted by Iridic at 7:59 AM on October 14, 2011 [13 favorites]
this is a patient with a clear history of lying to/manipulating and outright fooling his psychiatrists. The article says that in 1987, his psychiatrist, Glenn Miller, testified that Hinckley was no longer obsessed with Jodie Foster and hadn't been for three years. The Judge ordered that Hinckley's room be searched, and that search turned up 57 photos of the actress. Oops.
Not only the example you give, but also in 2000. He was given unsupervised furloughs, and then that was revoked when he smuggled in photos of Jodie Foster.
posted by Houstonian at 8:02 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
Not only the example you give, but also in 2000. He was given unsupervised furloughs, and then that was revoked when he smuggled in photos of Jodie Foster.
posted by Houstonian at 8:02 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
Forty-something Mefites Unite!
This is the first historical event that I can distinctly remember. I was sick and home from school, sitting in my parents den, painting a paint-by-numbers set which my mother always bought me from the local drug store when I was sick as a kid.
I had the TV on in the background as I looked for more #8's on the board. They cut into whichever talk show/soap opera with the announcement of the attempt.
That was thirty years ago? Damn, time does slip away.
posted by Sphinx at 8:02 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is the first historical event that I can distinctly remember. I was sick and home from school, sitting in my parents den, painting a paint-by-numbers set which my mother always bought me from the local drug store when I was sick as a kid.
I had the TV on in the background as I looked for more #8's on the board. They cut into whichever talk show/soap opera with the announcement of the attempt.
That was thirty years ago? Damn, time does slip away.
posted by Sphinx at 8:02 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
His administration funded resistance movements against communism throughout the world, which led to destabilizing power struggles. Some of which helped bring about the fall of the Soviet Union.
Wrong. Everyone knows Kim Philby's death is what really caused the fall of the USSR.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:02 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Wrong. Everyone knows Kim Philby's death is what really caused the fall of the USSR.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:02 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Sadly, the Lizard People are not invoked in this explanation.
The article says that in 1987, his psychiatrist, Glenn Miller...
Connecting these two statements is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by steambadger at 8:04 AM on October 14, 2011
The article says that in 1987, his psychiatrist, Glenn Miller...
Connecting these two statements is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by steambadger at 8:04 AM on October 14, 2011
And on THIS VERY DAY, a statue of Reagan was unveiled in Newport Beach. COINCIDENCE?!
Yes.
posted by Brocktoon at 8:30 AM on October 14, 2011
Yes.
posted by Brocktoon at 8:30 AM on October 14, 2011
Hinckley wasn't a hero, and wouldn't have necessarily become one had he succeeded, but Ronald Reagan was a villain. All the kids in third grade math class cheered when the principal told us over the loudspeaker. I think the teacher was a touch embarrassed. Then again, when our class held a mock election John Anderson won by a landslide. A change we could believe in. We were wiser than our parents.*
Whoah. Dude, did you go to my school? Anderson also won by a landslide at our school, because we figured a) Jimmy Carter already got to be president, and it's no fair to let him hog it, b) Ronald Reagan is a liar. How did we know he was a liar? No idea. But Anderson took the nomination. I don't think any of us knew what Anderson stood for, but the logic behind our decision was iron clad. And for many of my classmates, hasn't changed much since.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:33 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Whoah. Dude, did you go to my school? Anderson also won by a landslide at our school, because we figured a) Jimmy Carter already got to be president, and it's no fair to let him hog it, b) Ronald Reagan is a liar. How did we know he was a liar? No idea. But Anderson took the nomination. I don't think any of us knew what Anderson stood for, but the logic behind our decision was iron clad. And for many of my classmates, hasn't changed much since.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:33 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
Arguably the most interesting part of this story is that while Republicans get worked up about an attack on Reagan, Carter was also considered for assassination.
posted by MuffinMan at 8:34 AM on October 14, 2011
posted by MuffinMan at 8:34 AM on October 14, 2011
I think this bit is interesting for what it says about how stories like this get written:
posted by OmieWise at 8:44 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
At St. Elizabeths, Hinckley recently moved into a new building that offers spacious rooms and an enclosed courtyard. He’s pretty much free to walk the campus, compose songs on his guitar, feed his cats. He works at the hospital’s library every morning and cares for the small garden in front.The paragraph is technically correct, and it isn't particularly editorial (that is, the content isn't really presented in the service of making a point, say, about Hinckley's relative comfort, I don't think), but it's also a bit false in that all patients at St. Elizabeths have moved into that new building because they built a new hospital to replace the old one. One could imagine hay being made from the revelation that he moved into a "new" building, and that his room is "spacious." If one did not know that the building and rooms are the standard for St. Elizabeths it might look like he was getting special treatment. Newspaper reporting can be weird like that.
posted by OmieWise at 8:44 AM on October 14, 2011 [2 favorites]
One of my favorite concise political poems, by Aaron Belz.
Reagan to Bradyposted by nicebookrack at 8:57 AM on October 14, 2011 [6 favorites]
The bullet
headed
for my head
hit yours instead,
and as I age
my curse will be:
I won't remember
you took it
for me.
" ... Nancy is downright sexy. One day you and I will occupy the White House and the peasants will drool with envy.”
Insanely delusional? I mean, Sarah Palin also believes this.
I remember my Mom was practically in tears when I came home from school that day. Not because she was a fan of Reagan (she wasn't), but because she'd lived through the assassinations of the '60s and she feared it was all happening again. CBS called Walter Cronkite out of retirement to report on the event. In retrospect, it seems like one of the last times I can recall that a TV news reporter tried to allay fears instead of stoking them.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:57 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
Insanely delusional? I mean, Sarah Palin also believes this.
I remember my Mom was practically in tears when I came home from school that day. Not because she was a fan of Reagan (she wasn't), but because she'd lived through the assassinations of the '60s and she feared it was all happening again. CBS called Walter Cronkite out of retirement to report on the event. In retrospect, it seems like one of the last times I can recall that a TV news reporter tried to allay fears instead of stoking them.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:57 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
I've always enjoyed the "Shots from the Bushy Knoll" chapter in Jonathan Vankin's Conspiracies, Cover-ups and Crimes. One of the claims is that on the night of the assassination attempt Neil Bush had a dinner appointment with Scott Hinkley, John Hinkley's brother.
The connection between George Bush and John Hinckley Senior is well documented: "According to the March 31, 1981, edition of the Houston Post, and reported by AP, UPI, NBC News and Newsweek, Hinckley is the son of one of George H.W. Bush's political and financial supporters in his 1980 presidential primary campaign against Ronald Reagan; John Hinckley, Jr.'s elder brother, Scott Hinckley, and Bush's son Neil Bush had a dinner appointment scheduled for the next day."
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 9:11 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
The connection between George Bush and John Hinckley Senior is well documented: "According to the March 31, 1981, edition of the Houston Post, and reported by AP, UPI, NBC News and Newsweek, Hinckley is the son of one of George H.W. Bush's political and financial supporters in his 1980 presidential primary campaign against Ronald Reagan; John Hinckley, Jr.'s elder brother, Scott Hinckley, and Bush's son Neil Bush had a dinner appointment scheduled for the next day."
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 9:11 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm only half-joking when I wonder if coming out of the closet had been more acceptable back then if Hinckley's obsession with Jodie Foster would have been alleviated in any way and possibly prevented the attacks he performed in her "honor", or if he would have just transferred that obsession onto someone else and continued on with his plan regardless.
If Panic Room and Nell came out in the 80s, Hinckley wouldn't have done so much as tied Reagans shoelaces together.
Replace Panic Room, which was a Grade A thriller, with Flightplan, possibly one of the worst movies I've ever seen, and I'm on board.
posted by The Gooch at 9:11 AM on October 14, 2011
If Panic Room and Nell came out in the 80s, Hinckley wouldn't have done so much as tied Reagans shoelaces together.
Replace Panic Room, which was a Grade A thriller, with Flightplan, possibly one of the worst movies I've ever seen, and I'm on board.
posted by The Gooch at 9:11 AM on October 14, 2011
octobersurprise: "In retrospect, it seems like one of the last times I can recall that a TV news reporter tried to allay fears instead of stoking them."
Agreed.
On 9/11, most of the local New York news teams tried their best to allay fears. They did the same during the 2003 blackout. But unfortunately, it's a rare thing.
posted by zarq at 9:15 AM on October 14, 2011
Agreed.
On 9/11, most of the local New York news teams tried their best to allay fears. They did the same during the 2003 blackout. But unfortunately, it's a rare thing.
posted by zarq at 9:15 AM on October 14, 2011
And about 9/11 and local NYC news teams, I'll never forget this...
There was a moment before the towers fell when Chuck Scarborough (WNBC) was speaking with a man on a live call who was on the scene. The person started describing people who were, in front of his eyes, falling from the towers. The sound of horror and panic in his voice was so clear that the station cut the caller off. Scarborough then said something along the lines of "Well, we're going to end that call so we don't incite a panic."
These days, FoxNews would have aired the whole conversation unedited with a chiron underneath reading, "US Doomed: Black Democrat President Fails Terrified Nation."
I've never watched the news broadcast footage archive. Having lived through it as a local, I just can't bring myself to. But I wonder if that moment was saved for posterity.
posted by zarq at 9:30 AM on October 14, 2011
There was a moment before the towers fell when Chuck Scarborough (WNBC) was speaking with a man on a live call who was on the scene. The person started describing people who were, in front of his eyes, falling from the towers. The sound of horror and panic in his voice was so clear that the station cut the caller off. Scarborough then said something along the lines of "Well, we're going to end that call so we don't incite a panic."
These days, FoxNews would have aired the whole conversation unedited with a chiron underneath reading, "US Doomed: Black Democrat President Fails Terrified Nation."
I've never watched the news broadcast footage archive. Having lived through it as a local, I just can't bring myself to. But I wonder if that moment was saved for posterity.
posted by zarq at 9:30 AM on October 14, 2011
I think when you attempt to murder someone and are tried and convicted, and that person dies of other causes while you are incarcerated, you should be released.
posted by Renoroc at 9:42 AM on October 14, 2011
posted by Renoroc at 9:42 AM on October 14, 2011
I think when you attempt to murder someone and are tried and convicted, and that person dies of other causes while you are incarcerated, you should be released.
Because mission accomplished??
What?
posted by Floydd at 9:45 AM on October 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
Because mission accomplished??
What?
posted by Floydd at 9:45 AM on October 14, 2011 [4 favorites]
One of the claims is that on the night of the assassination attempt Neil Bush had a dinner appointment with Scott Hinkley, John Hinkley's brother.
Not so mysterious since they were both part of the 1%.
posted by Obscure Reference at 9:48 AM on October 14, 2011
Not so mysterious since they were both part of the 1%.
posted by Obscure Reference at 9:48 AM on October 14, 2011
Hinckley permanently disabled Press Secretary Jim Brady in his assassination attempt; he's suffered for years trying to recover. He nearly killed Secret Service agent Tim McCarthy. This joke is revolting.
This thread is depressing. Some are trying to address the issue of mental illness and crime seriously. But sick jokes and the relating of how (admittedly young) students cheered? Ugh.
I just have memories of so many assassinations and attempts, back to JFK, and including not only his brother, MLK but John Lennon and Anwar Sadat. Right on up to Giffords. (I've followed news of her closely and every once in awhile I see comments on news sites and her FB page like "He should've finished the job." Perhaps someday someone will post on the internet, "I was 8 when she was shot and boy, did I cheer.")
posted by NorthernLite at 9:49 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
This thread is depressing. Some are trying to address the issue of mental illness and crime seriously. But sick jokes and the relating of how (admittedly young) students cheered? Ugh.
I just have memories of so many assassinations and attempts, back to JFK, and including not only his brother, MLK but John Lennon and Anwar Sadat. Right on up to Giffords. (I've followed news of her closely and every once in awhile I see comments on news sites and her FB page like "He should've finished the job." Perhaps someday someone will post on the internet, "I was 8 when she was shot and boy, did I cheer.")
posted by NorthernLite at 9:49 AM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
Renoroc: "I think when you attempt to murder someone and are tried and convicted, and that person dies of other causes while you are incarcerated, you should be released."
Oh, I don't think you really believe that, do you? You meant to say that if you aren't a danger to yourself or society you should be released, right?
I think one problem with our current system is the, "Not guilty by reason of insanity" wording. Juries have this idea that returning this verdict will let the (alleged) perpetrator hang out in some nice cushy hospital getting served meals in bed or something.
The kind of mental hospitals these people go to are scary. They do good work, but they are, by definition, filled with people who are very sick or dangerous or both. You do not want to be a patient there. Given a choice, you might even prefer jail; in jail, I imagine you could convince a threatening convict that you have something to barter that would be more beneficial than beating you up, but if you get on the wrong side of a paranoid schizophrenic who has been off meds for two long that's not going to work.
But, as I said, people don't always see it that way. A better way to phrase it would be, "Guilty while under the influence of psychosis," something that makes it clear that the illness is what caused this person to think, "Aww, she doesn't even know I'm alive. How can I get her attention? Obviously, by assassinating the President!"
posted by misha at 9:57 AM on October 14, 2011
Oh, I don't think you really believe that, do you? You meant to say that if you aren't a danger to yourself or society you should be released, right?
I think one problem with our current system is the, "Not guilty by reason of insanity" wording. Juries have this idea that returning this verdict will let the (alleged) perpetrator hang out in some nice cushy hospital getting served meals in bed or something.
The kind of mental hospitals these people go to are scary. They do good work, but they are, by definition, filled with people who are very sick or dangerous or both. You do not want to be a patient there. Given a choice, you might even prefer jail; in jail, I imagine you could convince a threatening convict that you have something to barter that would be more beneficial than beating you up, but if you get on the wrong side of a paranoid schizophrenic who has been off meds for two long that's not going to work.
But, as I said, people don't always see it that way. A better way to phrase it would be, "Guilty while under the influence of psychosis," something that makes it clear that the illness is what caused this person to think, "Aww, she doesn't even know I'm alive. How can I get her attention? Obviously, by assassinating the President!"
posted by misha at 9:57 AM on October 14, 2011
I mean if I try to assassinate somebody, fail, and wind up behind bars while the good lord decides to fell them in the meantime with a completely unrelated heart attack or a stroke, why should I still be stuck behind bars? God should take my place, hypothetically speaking.
posted by Renoroc at 9:57 AM on October 14, 2011
posted by Renoroc at 9:57 AM on October 14, 2011
I remember where I was when the assasunation attempt happened. I am NOT a fan of Reagan. I despise damn near all he stood for. That said, if someone even tries to kill the President, he or she needs to stay locked up.
Oh god. Why not, or it'll send the wrong message to later potential president killers? He only served two-and-a-half decades in prison. You are not approaching this rationally; you are saying what "needs" to happen, and adjusting your arguments around that, giving it primacy. This is exactly the kind of thinking that got us into Iraq and Afghanistan, the desire to make people pay. It is no way to run a criminal justice system, which is supposed to be an agent of fairness in an unfair world, not a club for people to swing around on a whim.
To any person who has ever asked himself "WWJD," well, Jesus would be at the head of the line campaigning for his release.
posted by JHarris at 10:01 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh god. Why not, or it'll send the wrong message to later potential president killers? He only served two-and-a-half decades in prison. You are not approaching this rationally; you are saying what "needs" to happen, and adjusting your arguments around that, giving it primacy. This is exactly the kind of thinking that got us into Iraq and Afghanistan, the desire to make people pay. It is no way to run a criminal justice system, which is supposed to be an agent of fairness in an unfair world, not a club for people to swing around on a whim.
To any person who has ever asked himself "WWJD," well, Jesus would be at the head of the line campaigning for his release.
posted by JHarris at 10:01 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Whoah. Dude, did you go to my school? Anderson also won by a landslide at our school, because we figured a) Jimmy Carter already got to be president, and it's no fair to let him hog it, b) Ronald Reagan is a liar. How did we know he was a liar? No idea. But Anderson took the nomination. I don't think any of us knew what Anderson stood for, but the logic behind our decision was iron clad. And for many of my classmates, hasn't changed much since.
I think all little kids love third party candidates. Ross Perot carried every single class at my elementary school, even though he looks like a monster designed to frighten children; I think there must be an appeal to picking the outsider option.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:01 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think all little kids love third party candidates. Ross Perot carried every single class at my elementary school, even though he looks like a monster designed to frighten children; I think there must be an appeal to picking the outsider option.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:01 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
PinkMoose: Now that I have that out of the way, John Waters new book has a long essay about Leslie Van Houten, the essay is really interesting and about a bunch of things--about the possibility of redemption, about treating prisoners like people, but mostly about how it seems that the more notorious a crime, the less we are willing to acknowledge that forgiveness can actually happen, or even mental illness's effects.
That John Waters piece is terrific. Actually, so is the whole book.
three blind mice: Imagine how horrible it would have been if Reagan was replaced by his VP and George Herbert Walker Bush became President.
But George Herbert Walker Bush did become president. 8 years later. I'm not convinced that Bush as President in 1981 would have been materially worse (let alone horrible) than Reagan as President in 1981, or for that matter, Bush as President in 1989. Though it would definitely have made for a much different alternate history for the 1980s, that's for sure.
posted by blucevalo at 10:12 AM on October 14, 2011
That John Waters piece is terrific. Actually, so is the whole book.
three blind mice: Imagine how horrible it would have been if Reagan was replaced by his VP and George Herbert Walker Bush became President.
But George Herbert Walker Bush did become president. 8 years later. I'm not convinced that Bush as President in 1981 would have been materially worse (let alone horrible) than Reagan as President in 1981, or for that matter, Bush as President in 1989. Though it would definitely have made for a much different alternate history for the 1980s, that's for sure.
posted by blucevalo at 10:12 AM on October 14, 2011
I mean if I try to assassinate somebody, fail, and wind up behind bars while the good lord decides to fell them in the meantime with a completely unrelated heart attack or a stroke, why should I still be stuck behind bars?
How many people think you're actually John Hinckley writing about yourself in third person?
posted by octobersurprise at 10:18 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
How many people think you're actually John Hinckley writing about yourself in third person?
posted by octobersurprise at 10:18 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I was pretty little but I remember a mock Mondale/Ferraro election at school. Reagan crushed, this was a neighborhood where people had pictures of Kennedy up next to pictures of the pope. But Reagan turned all those people into republicans, and by extension their kids. Wasn't long till "liberal" was barely understood insult thrown around school
"shut up liberal"
"you're a liberal"
"you and your whole generation, times infinity"
"yeah your generation, infinity plus one!"
We thought "your whole generation meant entire family" and we knew liberals were bad things to be.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:27 AM on October 14, 2011
"shut up liberal"
"you're a liberal"
"you and your whole generation, times infinity"
"yeah your generation, infinity plus one!"
We thought "your whole generation meant entire family" and we knew liberals were bad things to be.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:27 AM on October 14, 2011
I don't know whether he should be released or not, but I do know that if I were Jodie Foster, I would be hiring bodyguards, plus PIs to keep tabs on Hinckley.
posted by Flunkie at 11:11 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 11:11 AM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Another good thing the assassination attempt brought us: Buckwheat Buys the Farm, from Saturday Night Live.
posted by raysmj at 11:21 AM on October 14, 2011
posted by raysmj at 11:21 AM on October 14, 2011
But sick jokes and the relating of how (admittedly young) students cheered? Ugh.
You're wrong to lump my memories in with sick jokes. I always thought that the cheering said a lot about the neighborhood I grew up in and what sort of things our parents talked about in front of us. It's a pretty interesting recollection, and almost every time I've brought it up, there's been at least one person whose class did the same thing.
I grew up a child of government workers in an area full of federal jobs; many of my classmates had parents in the public sector. Our folks put their money where their mouths were as far as doing for their country was concerned, but they all despised Reagan enough that the disdain trickled down to their kids. Did Reagan cut their workforce? Were they disgusted by his policies? Were they wiser than most of the fallout from the Nixonian abuses, and overly mistrustful of the very government for which they worked? We were relatively privileged and sophisticated children, and most of us were actively taught to eschew violence in thought and action.
I still think it's strange that elementary schoolers cheered the news; it's notable that children who knew that people shouldn't try to kill the president actually cheered like we'd won the Cold War or killed a wicked witch. That strangeness, that notability, made it a worthwhile contribution here.
But don't let me interrupt your holier-than-thou preening; it's really important to show that you're morally superior to a class of rambunctious eight year-olds.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:05 PM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
You're wrong to lump my memories in with sick jokes. I always thought that the cheering said a lot about the neighborhood I grew up in and what sort of things our parents talked about in front of us. It's a pretty interesting recollection, and almost every time I've brought it up, there's been at least one person whose class did the same thing.
I grew up a child of government workers in an area full of federal jobs; many of my classmates had parents in the public sector. Our folks put their money where their mouths were as far as doing for their country was concerned, but they all despised Reagan enough that the disdain trickled down to their kids. Did Reagan cut their workforce? Were they disgusted by his policies? Were they wiser than most of the fallout from the Nixonian abuses, and overly mistrustful of the very government for which they worked? We were relatively privileged and sophisticated children, and most of us were actively taught to eschew violence in thought and action.
I still think it's strange that elementary schoolers cheered the news; it's notable that children who knew that people shouldn't try to kill the president actually cheered like we'd won the Cold War or killed a wicked witch. That strangeness, that notability, made it a worthwhile contribution here.
But don't let me interrupt your holier-than-thou preening; it's really important to show that you're morally superior to a class of rambunctious eight year-olds.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:05 PM on October 14, 2011 [3 favorites]
this was all based on a case where people were pissed off about who the defendant tried to kill, rather than his actual mental health
Who, Reagan or Hinkley? 'Cause Reagan was coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs.
By issuing an ultimatum to air traffic controllers during their strike, he defanged unions to a large degree and made strikes much less common
Reagan fired 11,345 striking air traffic controllers in 1981. As a giant F.U. to them, National Airport was renamed after Reagan in 1998.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:59 PM on October 14, 2011
I'll make up my mind about his release after the next election.
posted by timsteil at 1:44 PM on October 14, 2011
posted by timsteil at 1:44 PM on October 14, 2011
One of my favorite concise political poems, by Aaron Belz.
Awesome sauce. Aaron was a fellow coworker and is still a pal. Good stuff.
posted by readyfreddy at 2:07 PM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Awesome sauce. Aaron was a fellow coworker and is still a pal. Good stuff.
posted by readyfreddy at 2:07 PM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
A woman I know had her 5th grade class interrupted with the news of RFK's shooting. When it was announced that the children would be sent home early, the class cheered.
Kids love getting out of school. It was nothing personal. It would take an exceptionally petty man to resent it.
posted by Trurl at 3:07 PM on October 14, 2011
Kids love getting out of school. It was nothing personal. It would take an exceptionally petty man to resent it.
posted by Trurl at 3:07 PM on October 14, 2011
I was around to hear the announcement of President Kennedy's death by assasination. To actually have seen Bobby Kennedy's assasination in real time on T.V. And yeah, Jim Brady, a genuinely good man, who could have given so much to this country.
Look, Reagan's presidency was a terrible time for this country. The attempted assasination made it harder for people who were opposing Reagan's policies.
I do believe one reason to confine people, in prisons or institutions for the criminally insane is to protect society. Another reason is to make an example of such criminals. Another is actually to keep the criminal from being harmed. I did not like Reagan. I wish he had not been elected. He has a fan base still. Maybe it's not so safe on the outside for Hinkley. Just sayin'
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 4:23 PM on October 14, 2011
Look, Reagan's presidency was a terrible time for this country. The attempted assasination made it harder for people who were opposing Reagan's policies.
I do believe one reason to confine people, in prisons or institutions for the criminally insane is to protect society. Another reason is to make an example of such criminals. Another is actually to keep the criminal from being harmed. I did not like Reagan. I wish he had not been elected. He has a fan base still. Maybe it's not so safe on the outside for Hinkley. Just sayin'
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 4:23 PM on October 14, 2011
This post should have a Jodi Foster tag. Related: the important issue about this case shouldn't be so much who he tried to hurt in the past, but who he might try to hurt in the present. He's not a danger to Reagan right now. He may be a danger to Jodie Foster. He may also be a danger to any president (current or past), or any other public office right now. He may be a danger to anybody at all. I don't know. I don't think I am qualified to diagnose if he is a threat. I'll leave it to the professionals, and I'll try to be satisfied with their decision.
posted by BurnChao at 4:24 PM on October 14, 2011
posted by BurnChao at 4:24 PM on October 14, 2011
Ross Perot carried every single class at my elementary school, even though he looks like a monster designed to frighten children
Funny, I thought he looked like a muppet designed to entertain children.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:51 PM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
Funny, I thought he looked like a muppet designed to entertain children.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:51 PM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
I remember the assassination attempt as well, being in 5th grade at the time. Our teacher was no fan of Reagan and nor was my family, and I seem to recall similar feelings among a lot of the students' families, but nobody cheered. We watched the news coverage in class that day and discussed it later, so it was became something of a current events educational thing.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:57 PM on October 14, 2011
posted by krinklyfig at 4:57 PM on October 14, 2011
All the "I remember my teacher announcing it" posts are really, really weird to me, because I distinctly remember being at a friend's house. So until I saw all these posts, I always imagined that it happened on a weekend, or during summer. I guess maybe my school was on Spring break or something.
posted by Flunkie at 5:53 PM on October 14, 2011
posted by Flunkie at 5:53 PM on October 14, 2011
In that case, you disagree with the original jury decision, which was that, by reason of insanity, Hinckley was not legally responsible for the shootings. He was not incarcerated because of the crime; he was incarcerated because his mental illness made him a threat to himself and/or others. The circumstances of the shooting are not relevant to the current question of Hinckley's release, because the shooting is not the the justification for his incarceration.
posted by layceepee at 7:40 AM on October 14
That "the shooting is not the justification for his incarceration" is utterly moronic. If someone attempts mass murder, they should be imprisoned permanently regardless, both for punishment and to protect society.
posted by knoyers at 5:53 PM on October 14, 2011
posted by layceepee at 7:40 AM on October 14
That "the shooting is not the justification for his incarceration" is utterly moronic. If someone attempts mass murder, they should be imprisoned permanently regardless, both for punishment and to protect society.
posted by knoyers at 5:53 PM on October 14, 2011
knoyers, I think the point you are not getting here is that Hinckley's mental illness is what made him a threat. If that illness could be effectively treated, he *might* not be a threat to society any longer.
From what I'm reading in this thread, it seems his obsessiveness with Jodi Foster and other women are still an issue, though, and since that was his original motivation for shooting Reagan, I would understand if he is still deemed unsafe for society.
posted by misha at 5:58 PM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
From what I'm reading in this thread, it seems his obsessiveness with Jodi Foster and other women are still an issue, though, and since that was his original motivation for shooting Reagan, I would understand if he is still deemed unsafe for society.
posted by misha at 5:58 PM on October 14, 2011 [1 favorite]
That "the shooting is not the justification for his incarceration" is utterly moronic. If someone attempts mass murder, they should be imprisoned permanently regardless, both for punishment and to protect society.
Did John Hinckley attempt "mass murder"? I thought he just tried to kill one person and hit three people. This data is old, but the recidivism rates for released murderers are relatively low; they're lower than the recidivism rate for any other crime, and the number of released murderers who are rearrested for murder is incredibly low (1.3%). There's probably a lot going on there, not least of which is that murderers are incarcerated for a long time and have generally aged out of their criminal years by the time that they are released. So yeah, the data shows we can release plenty of murderers without posing any serious danger to society. Hinckley's a good example; if he's no longer mentally ill, then there's no reason to believe that he's dangerous, what justice is there in locking someone up to protect society when he doesn't pose it any kind of danger?
This applies, by the way, beyond the context of mental illness. Take a hypothetical murderer, say someone who kills several people in a gang related shooting. You convict that guy and lock him up for 20 years; 20 years later he's almost 40, he's not the kid he was 20 years before, his gang is probably gone. The reason he killed isn't there, and he's not the same person he was when he did the killing; there's plenty of reason to believe that he's no more a threat than you or I, and keeping him locked up permanently in the name of "protecting society" is just vengeance couched in other language.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:40 PM on October 14, 2011
Did John Hinckley attempt "mass murder"? I thought he just tried to kill one person and hit three people. This data is
This applies, by the way, beyond the context of mental illness. Take a hypothetical murderer, say someone who kills several people in a gang related shooting. You convict that guy and lock him up for 20 years; 20 years later he's almost 40, he's not the kid he was 20 years before, his gang is probably gone. The reason he killed isn't there, and he's not the same person he was when he did the killing; there's plenty of reason to believe that he's no more a threat than you or I, and keeping him locked up permanently in the name of "protecting society" is just vengeance couched in other language.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:40 PM on October 14, 2011
Someone capable of doing what Hinckley did is enough of a threat, regardless of what they say. Even if it was true that he is not a threat, his crime deserves permanent incarceration anyway (and would just as much if Reagan was not president).
Reagan was Hinckley's target, but he was obviously very willing to kill anyone who got in his way. He attempted to kill the others that he shot.
posted by knoyers at 7:10 PM on October 14, 2011
Reagan was Hinckley's target, but he was obviously very willing to kill anyone who got in his way. He attempted to kill the others that he shot.
posted by knoyers at 7:10 PM on October 14, 2011
Flunkie, this definitely happened on a school day. I was in a classroom in Richland, Wash., at the time, in 7th grade. Nobody cheered as I remember.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:54 PM on October 14, 2011
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:54 PM on October 14, 2011
Charles Guiteau, the fellow who assassinated Garfield, was also housed at St. Elizabeth's Hospital. He was there while he unsuccessfully mounted an insanity defense, but he didn't stay there 30 years harassing female patients and pharmacy staff. The National Museum of Health and Medicine has most of the skeleton, the brain, and the spleen of Charles Guiteau in their collection.
Pre-emptive strike: yes, this Garfield, not the furry one who hates Mondays and loves lasagna.
posted by Cassford at 12:07 AM on October 15, 2011
Pre-emptive strike: yes, this Garfield, not the furry one who hates Mondays and loves lasagna.
posted by Cassford at 12:07 AM on October 15, 2011
So many people disliked 'Dutch'; his gravesite had to be specially designed because of people like Monte and Palin.
Inside a coffin inside a vault inside a poured-concrete tomb buried under the memorial seems safe. It would take considerable effort to get at it. It may have to be guarded longer than Tut lasted to deflect the lasting interest.
posted by Twang at 12:57 AM on October 15, 2011
Inside a coffin inside a vault inside a poured-concrete tomb buried under the memorial seems safe. It would take considerable effort to get at it. It may have to be guarded longer than Tut lasted to deflect the lasting interest.
posted by Twang at 12:57 AM on October 15, 2011
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posted by Meatbomb at 5:03 AM on October 14, 2011 [29 favorites]