Racism at a gaming company
October 2, 2012 3:16 PM Subscribe
This post was deleted for the following reason: At this point, the sole link is dead and I'd have to assume that's by the blogger's intent, so this is kind of a skunked post. If there's some sort of post-worthy denouement to all this down the line a more substantial post about the whole Kixeye thing would be fine. -- cortex
Man, those awful, awful Kixeye ads. I'm not surprised their culture is like that. Be sure to take their "Are You One Of Us" quiz. (Warning: auto-play audio)
posted by brundlefly at 3:25 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by brundlefly at 3:25 PM on October 2, 2012
Is "neoliberal colonizer" a real term?
In any case the people in that company sound like a bunch of oafish, sexist, racist buffoons.
posted by Justinian at 3:26 PM on October 2, 2012
In any case the people in that company sound like a bunch of oafish, sexist, racist buffoons.
posted by Justinian at 3:26 PM on October 2, 2012
Are these the Robot Unicorn Attack guys? That seems suprising, somehow.
posted by Artw at 3:28 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by Artw at 3:28 PM on October 2, 2012
OMG it's Kixeye??? I've been applying to game companies up and down the west coast and was kind of excited about what they're doing but fuuuuuuuck this nonsense . . . I hope this poor guy gets some compensation.
posted by chaff at 3:28 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by chaff at 3:28 PM on October 2, 2012
The company in question is Silicon Valley gaming startup KixEye. They are also infamous for their brogrammer (yes, this is an actual word. Apologies for repeating it) culture and being assholes.
The discussion over at Hacker News is - with some exceptions - incredibly insensitive, immature and, well, racist. Startup culture has a long way to go when it comes to dealing with misogyny and racism.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 3:31 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
The discussion over at Hacker News is - with some exceptions - incredibly insensitive, immature and, well, racist. Startup culture has a long way to go when it comes to dealing with misogyny and racism.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 3:31 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
Artw: "Are these the Robot Unicorn Attack guys? That seems suprising, somehow."
I don't think so. According to Wikipedia, that would be Spiritonin Media Games.
Using shiny new edit feature: Or, what you said.
posted by brundlefly at 3:32 PM on October 2, 2012
I don't think so. According to Wikipedia, that would be Spiritonin Media Games.
Using shiny new edit feature: Or, what you said.
posted by brundlefly at 3:32 PM on October 2, 2012
Using shiny new edit feature: Or, what you said.
Please don't use the shiny new edit feature for that. Just make another comment if you missed it before you commented. Public service message, thank you, carry on, etc.
posted by cortex at 3:34 PM on October 2, 2012 [14 favorites]
Please don't use the shiny new edit feature for that. Just make another comment if you missed it before you commented. Public service message, thank you, carry on, etc.
posted by cortex at 3:34 PM on October 2, 2012 [14 favorites]
I have a friend who used to work at a small company that made billing software for the health care industry (I think). He's told me all kinds of stories about his boss and fellow employees with the point generally being that he was in a culture of unabashed racist, sexist, homophobic assholes and how much he'd rather be working somewhere else. Let's just say I'm not exactly shocked that a small software firm (gaming, or otherwise) could be like this.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 3:35 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 3:35 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
"kixeye PR is holed up in a conference room right now trying to decide which rage guy to end their 28 panel public statement comic with"
posted by brundlefly at 3:36 PM on October 2, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 3:36 PM on October 2, 2012 [9 favorites]
Well that was pretty horrible.
My mostly-software-people company isn't brogrammery at all, although I am pretty embarassed by how few black people I've seen above the level of security guard.
posted by DU at 3:37 PM on October 2, 2012
My mostly-software-people company isn't brogrammery at all, although I am pretty embarassed by how few black people I've seen above the level of security guard.
posted by DU at 3:37 PM on October 2, 2012
These guys ever hear of a "hostile workplace environment"?
posted by 2N2222 at 3:38 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by 2N2222 at 3:38 PM on October 2, 2012
This article tells me, more or less, everything I wanted to know about Kixeye.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 3:41 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 3:41 PM on October 2, 2012
I'm trying to think of a term to refer to programmers who are not bigots. "Forward-compatible programmer"? Too long perhaps.
posted by LogicalDash at 3:42 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by LogicalDash at 3:42 PM on October 2, 2012
The discussion over at Hacker News is - with some exceptions - incredibly insensitive, immature and, well, racist
Yes, they all focus on the calculator comment, which was admittedly random and I don't know why that was part of the guy's list of grievances, and yes, maybe he shouldn't have thought dumbwhite about the woman who said it...but...there's those two things against the whole rest of the things he said he experienced at this job. Which were extremely disappointing, horrifying, racist, etc, yep yep.
posted by sweetkid at 3:43 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yes, they all focus on the calculator comment, which was admittedly random and I don't know why that was part of the guy's list of grievances, and yes, maybe he shouldn't have thought dumbwhite about the woman who said it...but...there's those two things against the whole rest of the things he said he experienced at this job. Which were extremely disappointing, horrifying, racist, etc, yep yep.
posted by sweetkid at 3:43 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
I can't even imagine what it's like to work in an environment with that. Fuck the "Steves" of the world.
posted by maxwelton at 3:46 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 3:46 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
I'm trying to think of a term to refer to programmers who are not bigots.
Programmers. The ones who are bigots? Assholes.
posted by Sternmeyer at 3:48 PM on October 2, 2012 [30 favorites]
Programmers. The ones who are bigots? Assholes.
posted by Sternmeyer at 3:48 PM on October 2, 2012 [30 favorites]
I'm trying to think of a term to refer to programmers who are not bigots.
"Programmers" is fine.
posted by DU at 3:49 PM on October 2, 2012 [5 favorites]
"Programmers" is fine.
posted by DU at 3:49 PM on October 2, 2012 [5 favorites]
Man, I'm hoping that guy wore a wire to work to get hours of delicious audio so he could sue them into a smoking crater.
posted by Hollywood Upstairs Medical College at 3:49 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Hollywood Upstairs Medical College at 3:49 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
The discussion over at Hacker News is - with some exceptions - incredibly insensitive, immature and, well, racist
Not surprising. HN is a more distilled version of all that's wrong with reddit.
posted by Sangermaine at 3:50 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
Not surprising. HN is a more distilled version of all that's wrong with reddit.
posted by Sangermaine at 3:50 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
The discussion over at Hacker News is - with some exceptions - incredibly insensitive, immature and, well, racist
Look. What you don't understand is that startup people are inherently good, because they work on worthwhile things like A/B testing advertising algorithms. That means they're better and smarter than the bad people who work in things like finance. A side-effect of this is that they don't need to address the fact that their industry is substantially more hostile to women and minorities than almost any other that I can think of.
posted by atrazine at 3:54 PM on October 2, 2012 [22 favorites]
Look. What you don't understand is that startup people are inherently good, because they work on worthwhile things like A/B testing advertising algorithms. That means they're better and smarter than the bad people who work in things like finance. A side-effect of this is that they don't need to address the fact that their industry is substantially more hostile to women and minorities than almost any other that I can think of.
posted by atrazine at 3:54 PM on October 2, 2012 [22 favorites]
One Sunday night I was listening to an old school beats program on the radio. There was a song that opened with a whole bunch of "Can I kick it?"s that I liked but didn't know who did it. And this was back before google search was as good as it is now.
Anyhow, I'm your basic American white guy, and back then I shared a cubicle area with a Kenyan/British guy, who I was pretty sure was in to hip-hop — not sure why I was, as we had not discussed it before. So on Monday morning I remember the song and I start off by asking him "Hey, you're in to hip-hop, aren't you?"
The slow, measured, slightly questioning "yeeesssssss" I got back makes me laugh now. Just the sheer level of "oh fuck what kind of stupid-ass question/comment must be coming after that." was amazing. I guess he'd had experiences similar to the guy in the article.
(The song turned out to be these guys, for those of you who didn't immediately identify them.)
posted by benito.strauss at 3:58 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
Anyhow, I'm your basic American white guy, and back then I shared a cubicle area with a Kenyan/British guy, who I was pretty sure was in to hip-hop — not sure why I was, as we had not discussed it before. So on Monday morning I remember the song and I start off by asking him "Hey, you're in to hip-hop, aren't you?"
The slow, measured, slightly questioning "yeeesssssss" I got back makes me laugh now. Just the sheer level of "oh fuck what kind of stupid-ass question/comment must be coming after that." was amazing. I guess he'd had experiences similar to the guy in the article.
(The song turned out to be these guys, for those of you who didn't immediately identify them.)
posted by benito.strauss at 3:58 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
This is a great blog post because it doesn't just explain what he saw and heard, it details his own feelings about what he experienced. I like how he didn't mute or blunt his own feelings and gives an accurate representation of the anger and powerlessness he felt at his job. Often in stories like these, the protagonist will filter themselves somewhat -- I can see why, because people seize on the victim's reaction and attempt to use it as justification, which I guess is what you can see on HN.
posted by cell divide at 4:03 PM on October 2, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by cell divide at 4:03 PM on October 2, 2012 [9 favorites]
The discussion over at Hacker News is - with some exceptions - incredibly insensitive, immature and, well, racist
Not surprising. HN is a more distilled version of all that's wrong with reddit.
I'm fairly new to HH and haven't really spent much time looking at the comments. But for this story I did and my response to the above is "Yes" and "Yes".
posted by tommasz at 4:03 PM on October 2, 2012
Not surprising. HN is a more distilled version of all that's wrong with reddit.
I'm fairly new to HH and haven't really spent much time looking at the comments. But for this story I did and my response to the above is "Yes" and "Yes".
posted by tommasz at 4:03 PM on October 2, 2012
Now I'm double glad that Kixeye did not hire me. But I am still pissed off at them for declining to provide me a proper interview because they found my "lack" of friends on Facebook "suspicious."
posted by TwelveTwo at 4:10 PM on October 2, 2012 [16 favorites]
posted by TwelveTwo at 4:10 PM on October 2, 2012 [16 favorites]
Wow. I would definitely view that as a bullet dodged, TwelveTwo.
posted by brundlefly at 4:13 PM on October 2, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 4:13 PM on October 2, 2012 [7 favorites]
Wow, TwelveTwo, I'm sorry the job didn't work out too -- but talk about confirming the biases I now I have for the company and the insecurity within based on that article in one short comment.
(Their ads and website seem to do that too.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 4:13 PM on October 2, 2012
(Their ads and website seem to do that too.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 4:13 PM on October 2, 2012
they found my "lack" of friends on Facebook "suspicious."
I couldn't help but to read that line in Darth Vader's voice.
posted by Aquaman at 4:16 PM on October 2, 2012 [17 favorites]
I couldn't help but to read that line in Darth Vader's voice.
posted by Aquaman at 4:16 PM on October 2, 2012 [17 favorites]
It's amazing (not really) how quickly the word "thug" can come to describe a person when you're a racist jackass. Unrelated, but when they announced the casting of Lenny Kravitz as Cinna in the Hunger Games (if you're from the Let Love Rule Era), their was quite a dust up about casting a "thug" for a hero's role.
Yeah. Good advice: think really hard about yourself when you're about to use the word thug, because you're probably basic.
posted by itsonreserve at 4:18 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah. Good advice: think really hard about yourself when you're about to use the word thug, because you're probably basic.
posted by itsonreserve at 4:18 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
You forgot quotes around "friends" as well, TwelveTwo.
And seeing that douchebag king getup with the nuke behind him, it's like...
Like he entered the game Diakatana and went back into time into the 90s and is now living the life of John Romero. Totally Romero Redux.
Also, I didn't know you could program games in Rails (badum-tsh)
posted by symbioid at 4:19 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
And seeing that douchebag king getup with the nuke behind him, it's like...
Like he entered the game Diakatana and went back into time into the 90s and is now living the life of John Romero. Totally Romero Redux.
Also, I didn't know you could program games in Rails (badum-tsh)
posted by symbioid at 4:19 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
My facial expressions as I was reading this article:
o.o
O.o
O.O
@.@
posted by wolfdreams01 at 4:20 PM on October 2, 2012 [21 favorites]
o.o
O.o
O.O
@.@
posted by wolfdreams01 at 4:20 PM on October 2, 2012 [21 favorites]
Ugh. Those Kixeye posters are all over BART and look like they're selling games to 14 year-old boys, not recruiting adult employees. They seem to be working, in the sense of attracting 14 year-olds in adult bodies. Anybody who didn't get hired there should be proud. And I hope the blogger wins his case, or at least puts a big dent in those shirtless laser-eyed unicorns frat boys. Ugh.
posted by Quietgal at 4:21 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by Quietgal at 4:21 PM on October 2, 2012
am half way reading this and am angry, almost in tears and ready to get a panic attack. i just ..... #GRAR
posted by liza at 4:23 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by liza at 4:23 PM on October 2, 2012
Now might be a good time to read Anna Anthropy's memoir/manifesto/how-to Rise of the Videogame Zinesters, about how we can do away with this unacceptable bullshit.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 4:33 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by GameDesignerBen at 4:33 PM on October 2, 2012
I hope he makes a bajillion dollars and also puts these guys out of business with this.
And I REALLY hope he kept the Skype transcripts, if those were IM conversations.
posted by NoraReed at 4:36 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
And I REALLY hope he kept the Skype transcripts, if those were IM conversations.
posted by NoraReed at 4:36 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
I was offered the job while I was at a coffee shop... Literally, he walked up to me as I was drinking coffee and doing computery things and asked “Excuse, do you play video games?”
This is my amazed face that this did not turn out to be an excellent job with discerning people.
posted by cribcage at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
This is my amazed face that this did not turn out to be an excellent job with discerning people.
posted by cribcage at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
ahhh, the old, "I'm from the South - I know what racist is - and I'm not being racist" excuse...
posted by Chuffy at 4:41 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 4:41 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
This is my amazed face that this did not turn out to be an excellent job with discerning people.
He could easily have been shanghai'd and sent to a parking lot to sell cologne...
posted by Chuffy at 4:42 PM on October 2, 2012
He could easily have been shanghai'd and sent to a parking lot to sell cologne...
posted by Chuffy at 4:42 PM on October 2, 2012
The gun was real, Will Harbin, chief executive and founder, confirms. “We have very passionate users, we had a couple of visitors at our old offices who turned up wanting to talk to somebody and that made us nervous,” he says.
posted by unliteral at 4:47 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by unliteral at 4:47 PM on October 2, 2012
i work at a woefully unhip grungy midwestern factory and i'm pretty shocked - this shit would not be tolerated for a minute at my workplace
one time an unknown person left some papers with some racist and sexist jokes in one of the break rooms and no 1 made a personal speech to everyone that, no, we don't do this here, it will not be tolerated and anyone who gets caught doing it will lose their job
it's a simple matter of choice - they can choose to say it won't be tolerated and they can choose to enforce it - that they are this careless about this says much about them
posted by pyramid termite at 4:51 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
one time an unknown person left some papers with some racist and sexist jokes in one of the break rooms and no 1 made a personal speech to everyone that, no, we don't do this here, it will not be tolerated and anyone who gets caught doing it will lose their job
it's a simple matter of choice - they can choose to say it won't be tolerated and they can choose to enforce it - that they are this careless about this says much about them
posted by pyramid termite at 4:51 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
Their security guard wears green camo? Is their employee lounge a freaking jungle or what?
posted by koeselitz at 4:52 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by koeselitz at 4:52 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
I read this earlier today, along with the HN thread. This conversation happened over IM with my partner.
Me: I just read an article detailing some incredibly awful racism this one guy face at a gaming startup
Me: And then I read a Hacker News thread about that article
Me: Guess which one enraged me more?
SO: noooooooo I am too late
posted by Phire at 4:53 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Me: I just read an article detailing some incredibly awful racism this one guy face at a gaming startup
Me: And then I read a Hacker News thread about that article
Me: Guess which one enraged me more?
SO: noooooooo I am too late
posted by Phire at 4:53 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Their security guard wears green camo?
Their black uniforms with the red arm bands were too retro.
posted by TwelveTwo at 4:59 PM on October 2, 2012
Their black uniforms with the red arm bands were too retro.
posted by TwelveTwo at 4:59 PM on October 2, 2012
OK... so this is pretty terrible... but what's going on with this?
And this is Run DMC:posted by Jahaza at 5:01 PM on October 2, 2012
[Picture of Run DMC with all three members wearing jeans]
Yes, what the fuck is indeed the correct response. Run DMC wear sweatpants and adidas, not skinny jeans and wingtips.
Dumbwhite**********
It's interesting how you can be "too sensitive", but you can never be too much of an asshole.
posted by worbel at 5:03 PM on October 2, 2012 [15 favorites]
posted by worbel at 5:03 PM on October 2, 2012 [15 favorites]
Quietgal: "Those Kixeye posters are all over BART and look like they're selling games to 14 year-old boys, not recruiting adult employees. They seem to be working, in the sense of attracting 14 year-olds in adult bodies."
In some cases literal 14 year-olds. Retweeted by @KIXEYE.
posted by brundlefly at 5:03 PM on October 2, 2012
In some cases literal 14 year-olds. Retweeted by @KIXEYE.
posted by brundlefly at 5:03 PM on October 2, 2012
Brogrammer culture at Kixeye (Slate)
So what was programmer culture like before it was flooded with startup money?
posted by mecran01 at 5:05 PM on October 2, 2012
So what was programmer culture like before it was flooded with startup money?
posted by mecran01 at 5:05 PM on October 2, 2012
I'm from the South - I know what racist is - and I'm not being racist
We didn't lynch you or drag behind a truck! See? We're progressive!
posted by Brocktoon at 5:07 PM on October 2, 2012
We didn't lynch you or drag behind a truck! See? We're progressive!
posted by Brocktoon at 5:07 PM on October 2, 2012
Ok, can I now bitch about the kixeye posters on busses around here. They have a picture of insanitywolf and say something like WORK AT KIXEYE BE MORE AWESOMER and all I can think is "why would I want to work at a internet company that is trying to be cool but doesn't actually understand what that meme means?" Seriously, it's like saying "only an crazy idiot would work here."
posted by aspo at 5:08 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by aspo at 5:08 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
So what was programmer culture like before it was flooded with startup money?
Neckbeards.
posted by asterix at 5:08 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Neckbeards.
posted by asterix at 5:08 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
You can take their beard off their neck, but you can't take their neck out of their ass.
posted by TwelveTwo at 5:18 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by TwelveTwo at 5:18 PM on October 2, 2012
I have never been so relieved to hear that a disgruntled ex-employee was pursuing legal action. I hope he takes them to the cleaners.
posted by availablelight at 5:19 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by availablelight at 5:19 PM on October 2, 2012
Me: And then I read a Hacker News thread about that article
Me: Guess which one enraged me more?
It's hard to tell if that hackernews article is satire or not. If it is, it is absolutely pitch-perfect.
posted by mhoye at 5:20 PM on October 2, 2012
Me: Guess which one enraged me more?
It's hard to tell if that hackernews article is satire or not. If it is, it is absolutely pitch-perfect.
posted by mhoye at 5:20 PM on October 2, 2012
Not entirely sure how anyone can read an article that includes the phrase "They say the word "bro" every other sentence" and still assume that every single word in the article is absolute truth. The only place people say "bro" every other sentence is in some made-up sitcom world. And if you still believe that's real then here's another site that's obviously full of 100% true things then.
Granted these guys sound like dicks, but from my reading of this the only actual racist asshole is Steve (assuming even half of what he wrote is true). Not sure how it goes from one racist dickbag to an entire racist company except in the same imagination that assumes all cops are bad because there are some bad cops.
And anyway the thing around his neck DOES look like a calculator.
posted by condiments at 5:21 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Granted these guys sound like dicks, but from my reading of this the only actual racist asshole is Steve (assuming even half of what he wrote is true). Not sure how it goes from one racist dickbag to an entire racist company except in the same imagination that assumes all cops are bad because there are some bad cops.
And anyway the thing around his neck DOES look like a calculator.
posted by condiments at 5:21 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Anyone taking a new job anywhere really should start a little notebook from Day One with notes about how the day went, including any odd interactions with individuals in the company or corporate "policy". Often it's the little things which happen early on which indicate a larger problem with the culture of the business. Also, it's important to show that things were NOT going badly early on if they then go sour later on, so you can prove that when you got the job you weren't putting up with bullshit and then suddenly 4 years later decided you had enough and were digging up shit on the company to try to make your exit more comfortable.
I've talked with lawyers about this kind of thing, for reasons I won't go into here. And they've all said exactly the same thing -- take notes on any job you have from day one. Dates, times, locations, potential witnesses, and exactly what happened. Positive or negative. It's often the only "armor" you have as an employee when confronted with a negative workplace environment. And if you have those things, you're already 90% of the way towards building a case which is nearly impossible for the workplace to refute, because they won't be keeping similar notes.
Do it daily, do it more than once in a day, and do it for the good as well as the bad. Trust me on this.
posted by hippybear at 5:23 PM on October 2, 2012 [5 favorites]
I've talked with lawyers about this kind of thing, for reasons I won't go into here. And they've all said exactly the same thing -- take notes on any job you have from day one. Dates, times, locations, potential witnesses, and exactly what happened. Positive or negative. It's often the only "armor" you have as an employee when confronted with a negative workplace environment. And if you have those things, you're already 90% of the way towards building a case which is nearly impossible for the workplace to refute, because they won't be keeping similar notes.
Do it daily, do it more than once in a day, and do it for the good as well as the bad. Trust me on this.
posted by hippybear at 5:23 PM on October 2, 2012 [5 favorites]
Um. I'm feeling a bit of hatred towards startups and startup culture here, and I just wanted to say that not all San Francisco startups (full disclosure, I work for one) are like that. I know that no one is saying they all are, but there's a lot of LOOK AT THESE SAN FRANCISCO RACIST STARTUPS attitude here, which I don't think is completely justified.
If the facts are as stated in the post, then he should have an fairly easy case in court, if they don't settle with him. I would like to see the lawsuit; as is, I can only say that what allegedly happened is pretty reprehensible.
posted by Han Tzu at 5:24 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
If the facts are as stated in the post, then he should have an fairly easy case in court, if they don't settle with him. I would like to see the lawsuit; as is, I can only say that what allegedly happened is pretty reprehensible.
posted by Han Tzu at 5:24 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
condiments: "Not entirely sure how anyone can read an article that includes the phrase "They say the word "bro" every other sentence" and still assume that every single word in the article is absolute truth."
Yes, I'm sure he intended that sentence to be taken completely literally.
posted by brundlefly at 5:25 PM on October 2, 2012 [6 favorites]
Yes, I'm sure he intended that sentence to be taken completely literally.
posted by brundlefly at 5:25 PM on October 2, 2012 [6 favorites]
I work for a startup that has no brogrammers. I read that post and wished our company was in Oakland so he could come work for us and experience a sane working environment where people treat each other with respect and don't make stupid insulting jokes.
posted by A dead Quaker at 5:26 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by A dead Quaker at 5:26 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
I guess "Dumbwhite**********" is just ironic racism and is perfectly acceptable.
posted by stavrogin at 5:28 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by stavrogin at 5:28 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
I guess "Dumbwhite**********" is just ironic racism and is perfectly acceptable.
Context my friend! Words expressed in reactionary anger are not great, but not institutionalized. Context yay!
posted by Think_Long at 5:31 PM on October 2, 2012 [11 favorites]
Context my friend! Words expressed in reactionary anger are not great, but not institutionalized. Context yay!
posted by Think_Long at 5:31 PM on October 2, 2012 [11 favorites]
I guess "Dumbwhite**********" is just ironic racism and is perfectly acceptable.
alternative theory: most people understand what someone says when ranting is not a perfect representation of their views, and are able to accept that and move on without feeling insulted and acting as if ~your personal feelings~ triumph over or even fucking matter in the case of this dude's treatment
and by most people I do not mean most people on HN
posted by ReadEvalPost at 5:33 PM on October 2, 2012
alternative theory: most people understand what someone says when ranting is not a perfect representation of their views, and are able to accept that and move on without feeling insulted and acting as if ~your personal feelings~ triumph over or even fucking matter in the case of this dude's treatment
and by most people I do not mean most people on HN
posted by ReadEvalPost at 5:33 PM on October 2, 2012
I'm sure there's always an excuse for racism that will appeal to someone.
posted by stavrogin at 5:33 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by stavrogin at 5:33 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Context my friend! Words expressed in reactionary anger are not great, but not institutionalized. Context yay!
Honestly, it's kind of impossible to have conversations like these with people who don't believe institutional racism is a thing.
posted by sweetkid at 5:33 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
About 50% of my social media connections are game industry folks, and I am pleased (but not surprised) that so far every single reaction to this has been "wow, those guys are tools."
posted by restless_nomad at 5:34 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by restless_nomad at 5:34 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Institutional racism is obviously a thing. That doesn't mean it's acceptable to use the same tactics. If you think racism is bad, then all racism is bad. No exceptions for special snowflakes.
posted by stavrogin at 5:35 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by stavrogin at 5:35 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
So unless you are perfect you can't criticize or object to racist etc. behavior and actions?
posted by rtha at 5:37 PM on October 2, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by rtha at 5:37 PM on October 2, 2012 [7 favorites]
I'm still trying to figure out what ********** stands for. motherfucker? asshole? neither of those have the right number of letters. Cocksucker does, but surely he's not actually going there...
posted by hippybear at 5:37 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by hippybear at 5:37 PM on October 2, 2012
How about you don't sink to the same level. Even if you feel like saying "Dumbwhite**********" because you're angry, you don't.
posted by stavrogin at 5:38 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by stavrogin at 5:38 PM on October 2, 2012
The company sounds awful, but the whole piece gives me a pretty toolish vibe as well.
Yes, what the fuck is indeed the correct response. Run DMC wear sweatpants and adidas, not skinny jeans and wingtips.
Stupid gotchas are stupid gotchas, even if done to enormous racist tools.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 5:38 PM on October 2, 2012
Yes, what the fuck is indeed the correct response. Run DMC wear sweatpants and adidas, not skinny jeans and wingtips.
Stupid gotchas are stupid gotchas, even if done to enormous racist tools.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 5:38 PM on October 2, 2012
How about you don't sink to the same level. Even if you feel like saying "Dumbwhite**********" because you're angry, you don't.
He didn't say it, he wrote it. And then bleeped it out. On a blogpost. Written months after the fact. After having his hours cut for standing up for himself.
Honestly, if that's what offends you so much, maybe there's something to the attribution.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 5:40 PM on October 2, 2012 [9 favorites]
He didn't say it, he wrote it. And then bleeped it out. On a blogpost. Written months after the fact. After having his hours cut for standing up for himself.
Honestly, if that's what offends you so much, maybe there's something to the attribution.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 5:40 PM on October 2, 2012 [9 favorites]
I'm not surprised this happened at a startup. It's not an indictment of all startups or of startup culture as a whole, but I can see a startup run by people who do not get it misinterpreting the relaxed rules and reduced professionalism of startup culture as 'there are no rules, just do whatever you want'. Except there are still rules, and they're going to find out in court (assuming this is at all accurate and there is evidence).
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:41 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:41 PM on October 2, 2012
How about you don't sink to the same level. Even if you feel like saying "Dumbwhite**********" because you're angry, you don't.
Okay, fine, but does that change what actually happened or the merit of his anger?
posted by Think_Long at 5:41 PM on October 2, 2012 [7 favorites]
Okay, fine, but does that change what actually happened or the merit of his anger?
posted by Think_Long at 5:41 PM on October 2, 2012 [7 favorites]
Using asterisks as taboo avoidance while not making the number of asterisks match up to the number of elided characters is a thing I've seen happen a ton. Whether its with intention to obfuscate the word in question or just out of a disinterest in worrying about a character-for-character correlation has always struck me as an interesting linguistic survey project. Someone else get on that, I'm busy.
But it feels like the intended reading doesn't depend too much on resolving that mystery. I read it as "motherfucker", personally, because that just rolls off the brain for me. Gives the phrase a good cadence as frustrated internal-muttering curses go.
Even if you feel like saying "Dumbwhite**********" because you're angry, you don't.
Maybe you don't say it but later you say it on your blog. Tiered levels of venting are an interesting thing. I have a hard time hanging much on it in this context, but then you should hear the shit I say to my monitor before I type something more polite into my keyboard.
posted by cortex at 5:42 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
But it feels like the intended reading doesn't depend too much on resolving that mystery. I read it as "motherfucker", personally, because that just rolls off the brain for me. Gives the phrase a good cadence as frustrated internal-muttering curses go.
Even if you feel like saying "Dumbwhite**********" because you're angry, you don't.
Maybe you don't say it but later you say it on your blog. Tiered levels of venting are an interesting thing. I have a hard time hanging much on it in this context, but then you should hear the shit I say to my monitor before I type something more polite into my keyboard.
posted by cortex at 5:42 PM on October 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
id software minus talent
posted by fleacircus at 5:43 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by fleacircus at 5:43 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
In a formal logical system, finding one incorrect statement or deduction invalidates the whole system. People whose work involves a lot of logical systems can start to think that human interaction is (or should be) the same. This strategy is often used to avoid dealing with something uncomfortable.
Also, why did I read that Hacker News post? It's hosted on Y Combinator, and I want to yell "You doofuses are giving lambda calculus recursion a bad name!".
posted by benito.strauss at 5:48 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Also, why did I read that Hacker News post? It's hosted on Y Combinator, and I want to yell "You doofuses are giving lambda calculus recursion a bad name!".
posted by benito.strauss at 5:48 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
He didn't say it, he wrote it. And then bleeped it out. On a blogpost. Written months after the fact. After having his hours cut for standing up for himself.
Honestly, if that's what offends you so much, maybe there's something to the attribution.
So, he's not even saying it in the heat of the moment. And you're calling me a "dumbwhite******" now? I'm not sure what's so offensive about staying above the racist assholes at his former employer.
Okay, fine, but does that change what actually happened or the merit of his anger?
Jesus. What happened to him his not ok. He should be angry. He should sue the shit out of them. That doesn't mean it's suddenly ok to be another racist douchebag.
posted by stavrogin at 5:49 PM on October 2, 2012
Honestly, if that's what offends you so much, maybe there's something to the attribution.
So, he's not even saying it in the heat of the moment. And you're calling me a "dumbwhite******" now? I'm not sure what's so offensive about staying above the racist assholes at his former employer.
Okay, fine, but does that change what actually happened or the merit of his anger?
Jesus. What happened to him his not ok. He should be angry. He should sue the shit out of them. That doesn't mean it's suddenly ok to be another racist douchebag.
posted by stavrogin at 5:49 PM on October 2, 2012
The people in question are not "brogrammers" anyway, they're entry-level QA people. Although they are generally fine folks, I have seen more than my share (that is, a nonzero number) of Bigoted Manchild Gamer QA Testers (just like how there's usually that one guy whose desk is encrusted with questionably appropriate anime figurines, and at least one or two "out" furries, or more recently, bronies. Not that they're remotely equivalent). However, unlike this dude, they're usually dealt with swiftly and decisively; my employers have had pretty strict zero-tolerance policies for harassment / hate speech. I've actually watched people get frogmarched out for crossing the line with a "joke".
I hope that happens (maybe it's about to?) at Kixeye, but I hope our dude cleans up in court, so that other companies are less accepting of the "QA pit = WELCOME 2 THA JUNGLE BABY, YO GONNA DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻" management style.
posted by jake at 5:49 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
I hope that happens (maybe it's about to?) at Kixeye, but I hope our dude cleans up in court, so that other companies are less accepting of the "QA pit = WELCOME 2 THA JUNGLE BABY, YO GONNA DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻" management style.
posted by jake at 5:49 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
The above comments about the discussion on Hacker News are inaccurate. If anything, I'm surprised by the amount of commenters who bring up the differences between the insults "dumb white" vs. "dumb black", that racism isn't merely about race but about power relations, and the issues of privilege. Plenty of the commenters are on the side of the blogger, not Kixeye. If anything, the comments in this MeFi thread are showing their privilege by mocking "those startup geeks who only know numbers and algorithms unlike us enlightened non-engineers."
posted by Apocryphon at 5:52 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 5:52 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
brundlefly: Yes, I'm sure he intended that sentence to be taken completely literally.
Is that like how everything in the Bible is 100% accurate absolute truth except for the convenient few things that aren't meant to be taken literally?
posted by condiments at 5:54 PM on October 2, 2012
Is that like how everything in the Bible is 100% accurate absolute truth except for the convenient few things that aren't meant to be taken literally?
posted by condiments at 5:54 PM on October 2, 2012
Jesus. What happened to him his not ok. He should be angry. He should sue the shit out of them. That doesn't mean it's suddenly ok to be another racist douchebag.
Sorry stavrogin, I don't mean to knee-jerk imply that you're okay with what happened. It's just that in a disturbing amount of these situations, the perpetrators and their friends will attempt to distract from the issue by attacking the defendant to downplay or spread the blame. Your comments kindof play into that, even though I know you don't mean it that way.
posted by Think_Long at 5:57 PM on October 2, 2012
Sorry stavrogin, I don't mean to knee-jerk imply that you're okay with what happened. It's just that in a disturbing amount of these situations, the perpetrators and their friends will attempt to distract from the issue by attacking the defendant to downplay or spread the blame. Your comments kindof play into that, even though I know you don't mean it that way.
posted by Think_Long at 5:57 PM on October 2, 2012
In a formal logical system, finding one incorrect statement or deduction invalidates the whole system. People whose work involves a lot of logical systems can start to think that human interaction is (or should be) the same. This strategy is often used to avoid dealing with something uncomfortable.
Yeah, there's that, but there's also the fact that in looking at the testimony of a witness to something, you expect them to tell the truth and if there are things in the story that are obviously untrue, it subjects the rest of it to a higher level of scrutiny. It's not that there's one error and the structure falls, it's just that each additional error or misstatement or exaggeration makes a witness less reliable and skepticism about other parts of her account increases. It's not "invaliditing," but it's not something that has to be glossed over either.
posted by Jahaza at 5:58 PM on October 2, 2012
Yeah, there's that, but there's also the fact that in looking at the testimony of a witness to something, you expect them to tell the truth and if there are things in the story that are obviously untrue, it subjects the rest of it to a higher level of scrutiny. It's not that there's one error and the structure falls, it's just that each additional error or misstatement or exaggeration makes a witness less reliable and skepticism about other parts of her account increases. It's not "invaliditing," but it's not something that has to be glossed over either.
posted by Jahaza at 5:58 PM on October 2, 2012
from the Slate article:
Besides, [Kixeye vice president of marketing Brandon Barber] added, "Chicks who are hardcore gamers, they understand that kind of humor."
posted by zippy at 5:59 PM on October 2, 2012
Besides, [Kixeye vice president of marketing Brandon Barber] added, "Chicks who are hardcore gamers, they understand that kind of humor."
posted by zippy at 5:59 PM on October 2, 2012
brundlefly: Yes, I'm sure he intended that sentence to be taken completely literally.
Is that like how everything in the Bible is 100% accurate absolute truth except for the convenient few things that aren't meant to be taken literally?
Oh FFS, it was a guy venting on his tumblr, not a deposition. Challenging the "truth" of someone's experience because they use a(n assumed) hyperbolic figure of speech is silly. No one is meant to believe that the guy had a spreadsheet of the number of times the word "bro" was uttered. Most people get that. It doesn't invalidate the other things he's written.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:02 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Is that like how everything in the Bible is 100% accurate absolute truth except for the convenient few things that aren't meant to be taken literally?
Oh FFS, it was a guy venting on his tumblr, not a deposition. Challenging the "truth" of someone's experience because they use a(n assumed) hyperbolic figure of speech is silly. No one is meant to believe that the guy had a spreadsheet of the number of times the word "bro" was uttered. Most people get that. It doesn't invalidate the other things he's written.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:02 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Everyone in the story comes out as really quite impressively racist, including the author.
Avoiding San Francisco, because you believe it to be a hotbed of racism, is pretty far out there in terms of paranoia. It's one of the most liberal and tolerant cities anywhere, not the town from the Dukes of Hazzard. He returns to this theme throughout the article, it's not a one-off comment.
Racially abusing a co-worker for saying your african pendant looks like a calculator, when it does in fact look just like a calculator. Also a red flag.
Racially abusing another because he says you dress like RUN DMC when you actually dress like Kanye West on a budget? Also not good.
It's lame that he undermines his own case against his asshole co-workers like that.
posted by w0mbat at 6:02 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Avoiding San Francisco, because you believe it to be a hotbed of racism, is pretty far out there in terms of paranoia. It's one of the most liberal and tolerant cities anywhere, not the town from the Dukes of Hazzard. He returns to this theme throughout the article, it's not a one-off comment.
Racially abusing a co-worker for saying your african pendant looks like a calculator, when it does in fact look just like a calculator. Also a red flag.
Racially abusing another because he says you dress like RUN DMC when you actually dress like Kanye West on a budget? Also not good.
It's lame that he undermines his own case against his asshole co-workers like that.
posted by w0mbat at 6:02 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
w0mbat: His comments, written outside of work, did not contribute to a hostile workplace. Whether he is racist himself or not is not the issue, but the racist comments made against him at work are. To claim that anything he writes undermines his position is to make a false equivalence and is a form of derailment of the discussion.
Guess where I got that link from? That's right, the Hacker News discussion thread.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:07 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
Guess where I got that link from? That's right, the Hacker News discussion thread.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:07 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
I have seen more than my share (that is, a nonzero number) of Bigoted Manchild Gamer QA Testers (just like how there's usually that one guy whose desk is encrusted with questionably appropriate anime figurines, and at least one or two "out" furries, or more recently, bronies
Because They Want To Be In Games (note: this is different from Wanting To Make Games), they don't want to actually do any valuable work. Not that programmers are immune from it, but there's a higher percentage of people who are there for the paycheck or there for the work or there for something other than Neckbeard Manchild reasons. Or if they are Neckbeard Manchildren, they had most of that crap beaten out of them at their elitist neoliberal colonizer/gentrifier four year institutions.
I hope that happens (maybe it's about to?) at Kixeye, but I hope our dude cleans up in court, so that other companies are less accepting of the "QA pit = WELCOME 2 THA JUNGLE BABY, YO GONNA DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻" management style.
I think outsourcing is sadly more likely, plus also a great deal more automation. It's a shit job but it still pays well and is actually one of the last few "good blue collar jobs" out there, which means it will be on the chopping block way before programmers and artists. There's definitely a big class-based component that goes into which bright teeenagers interested in videogames wind up as programmers and which wind up as testers. Although I'm sure this is not conscious on the part of companies like EA, part of the bro culture/Want To Be In Games thing actually helps keep the labor cost of big publishers down. That this kind of "divide and conquer" shit is an age-old tale familiar to anyone who knows the least little bit about the history of labor organizing, is noteworthy only in as much as it's intriguing how it's still going on in a complete vacuum of populist consciousness, #OccupyWallstreet notwithstanding. I mean, back when all these old fights were happening within unions and the labor movement more generally, the Forces of Evil were still making their xenophobic/racist/sexist/nativist arguments within a framework of populism and pro-labor attitudes. You really don't see that any more outside of the kind of people who blame Mexicans for taking "their jobs", and yet the same old stuff goes down. It's interesting. Also depressing as shit.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 6:10 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Because They Want To Be In Games (note: this is different from Wanting To Make Games), they don't want to actually do any valuable work. Not that programmers are immune from it, but there's a higher percentage of people who are there for the paycheck or there for the work or there for something other than Neckbeard Manchild reasons. Or if they are Neckbeard Manchildren, they had most of that crap beaten out of them at their elitist neoliberal colonizer/gentrifier four year institutions.
I hope that happens (maybe it's about to?) at Kixeye, but I hope our dude cleans up in court, so that other companies are less accepting of the "QA pit = WELCOME 2 THA JUNGLE BABY, YO GONNA DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻" management style.
I think outsourcing is sadly more likely, plus also a great deal more automation. It's a shit job but it still pays well and is actually one of the last few "good blue collar jobs" out there, which means it will be on the chopping block way before programmers and artists. There's definitely a big class-based component that goes into which bright teeenagers interested in videogames wind up as programmers and which wind up as testers. Although I'm sure this is not conscious on the part of companies like EA, part of the bro culture/Want To Be In Games thing actually helps keep the labor cost of big publishers down. That this kind of "divide and conquer" shit is an age-old tale familiar to anyone who knows the least little bit about the history of labor organizing, is noteworthy only in as much as it's intriguing how it's still going on in a complete vacuum of populist consciousness, #OccupyWallstreet notwithstanding. I mean, back when all these old fights were happening within unions and the labor movement more generally, the Forces of Evil were still making their xenophobic/racist/sexist/nativist arguments within a framework of populism and pro-labor attitudes. You really don't see that any more outside of the kind of people who blame Mexicans for taking "their jobs", and yet the same old stuff goes down. It's interesting. Also depressing as shit.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 6:10 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that there's probably a whole world of difference between uttering "dumbwhite" on your personal blog after being subjected to day after day of racism, and subjecting a co-worker to day after day of racism. They're not equivalent, they're not in the same ballpark, they're not even the same damn sport, and microscoping on this utterance of his seems utterly beside the point.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:12 PM on October 2, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:12 PM on October 2, 2012 [9 favorites]
when it does in fact look just like a calculator
It only looks like a calculator to people whose backgrounds tell them that. It probably has meaning within Nairobi culture, or else it's just decorative. I find it interesting, and would never say it looks like a calculator. That's the kind of ignorant culturally-blind basically racist thing people have said for centuries when confronted by symbols and artifacts for which they have no context.
What is the shame about that particular moment is that he didn't say "no, it might look like a calculator, but it's actually a [insert name of object here] which in Nairobi is {symbolic of X} / {used in Y} / {given to people during Z}" or whatever the actual context for that pendant is.
The whole "white man doesn't understand something from another culture and belittles or misunderstands it by comparing it to something he is familiar with" thing has been going on forever, and it's a tired tired schtick. I'm totally with the guy on this one. That woman was being a dumbwhite**********.
posted by hippybear at 6:12 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
It only looks like a calculator to people whose backgrounds tell them that. It probably has meaning within Nairobi culture, or else it's just decorative. I find it interesting, and would never say it looks like a calculator. That's the kind of ignorant culturally-blind basically racist thing people have said for centuries when confronted by symbols and artifacts for which they have no context.
What is the shame about that particular moment is that he didn't say "no, it might look like a calculator, but it's actually a [insert name of object here] which in Nairobi is {symbolic of X} / {used in Y} / {given to people during Z}" or whatever the actual context for that pendant is.
The whole "white man doesn't understand something from another culture and belittles or misunderstands it by comparing it to something he is familiar with" thing has been going on forever, and it's a tired tired schtick. I'm totally with the guy on this one. That woman was being a dumbwhite**********.
posted by hippybear at 6:12 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Oh FFS, it was a guy venting on his tumblr, not a deposition. Challenging the "truth" of someone's experience because they use a(n assumed) hyperbolic figure of speech is silly. No one is meant to believe that the guy had a spreadsheet of the number of times the word "bro" was uttered. Most people get that. It doesn't invalidate the other things he's written.
It does suggest that if he's being hyperbolic, that he might be exaggerating other details as well, or maybe even slightly misremembering what people actually said. The point is that it seems like the entire internet is taking everything some random guy that no one ever heard of before today as absolute fact.
I'm all for crucifying bad guys but you should be damn sure they deserve it before you nail them up. You can't un-nail them if you're wrong.
posted by condiments at 6:12 PM on October 2, 2012
It does suggest that if he's being hyperbolic, that he might be exaggerating other details as well, or maybe even slightly misremembering what people actually said. The point is that it seems like the entire internet is taking everything some random guy that no one ever heard of before today as absolute fact.
I'm all for crucifying bad guys but you should be damn sure they deserve it before you nail them up. You can't un-nail them if you're wrong.
posted by condiments at 6:12 PM on October 2, 2012
Avoiding San Francisco, because you believe it to be a hotbed of racism, is pretty far out there in terms of paranoia. It's one of the most liberal and tolerant cities anywhere, not the town from the Dukes of Hazzard. He returns to this theme throughout the article, it's not a one-off comment.
Do you live here? It is a hotbed of racism. There should probably be a ban on Nice White Girls quoting Dave Chappelle, but: "WELCOME TO OAKLAND, BITCH!"
That lots of white yuppies here like falling all over ourselves to show everyone how tolerant and hip not not Republican we all are doesn't mean we're not racist. And the Financial District is really more like, I don't know, the Northern outpost for the douchier parts of the Valley.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 6:15 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
Do you live here? It is a hotbed of racism. There should probably be a ban on Nice White Girls quoting Dave Chappelle, but: "WELCOME TO OAKLAND, BITCH!"
That lots of white yuppies here like falling all over ourselves to show everyone how tolerant and hip not not Republican we all are doesn't mean we're not racist. And the Financial District is really more like, I don't know, the Northern outpost for the douchier parts of the Valley.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 6:15 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
And the Financial District is really more like, I don't know, the Northern outpost for the douchier parts of the Valley.
It is the first and strongest barrier to protect Orange County from Oregon, Washington and British Columbia. Winter is Coming.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:17 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
It is the first and strongest barrier to protect Orange County from Oregon, Washington and British Columbia. Winter is Coming.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:17 PM on October 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
MeFi: That lots of white yuppies here like falling all over ourselves to show everyone how tolerant and hip not not Republican we all are doesn't mean we're not racist.
posted by Apocryphon at 6:19 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by Apocryphon at 6:19 PM on October 2, 2012
That's the kind of ignorant culturally-blind basically racist thing people have said for centuries when confronted by symbols and artifacts for which they have no context.
Oh for crying out loud. It does look like a calculator. Pointing and laughing hysterically while you shout, "Look at the dude wearing the calculator!!" would be ignorant and culturally blind. Asking what something is while observing, "its appearance reminds me of this other thing" is not offensive except to people who are looking to be offended.
That woman was being a dumbwhite**********.
Flagged as racist. Can we not do this?
posted by cribcage at 6:20 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Oh for crying out loud. It does look like a calculator. Pointing and laughing hysterically while you shout, "Look at the dude wearing the calculator!!" would be ignorant and culturally blind. Asking what something is while observing, "its appearance reminds me of this other thing" is not offensive except to people who are looking to be offended.
That woman was being a dumbwhite**********.
Flagged as racist. Can we not do this?
posted by cribcage at 6:20 PM on October 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
It does suggest that if he's being hyperbolic, that he might be exaggerating other details as well, or maybe even slightly misremembering what people actually said. The point is that it seems like the entire internet is taking everything some random guy that no one ever heard of before today as absolute fact.
So when he and the other black guy were told they were dressed too "thuggish," they were misremembering?
posted by sweetkid at 6:21 PM on October 2, 2012
So when he and the other black guy were told they were dressed too "thuggish," they were misremembering?
posted by sweetkid at 6:21 PM on October 2, 2012
Well. I guess that when it comes to the topic of race, you really shouldn't ever read the comments. Even at MetaFilter. Good to know.
posted by skye.dancer at 6:21 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by skye.dancer at 6:21 PM on October 2, 2012 [4 favorites]
I think the calculator-girl thing was incidental - but it bears more than just a passing resemblance to a calculator. If you wear an obtrusive calculator looking thing around your neck, I think you ought to be prepared for it to be misinterpreted. (I sure as hell would.) And really, what is the big deal if she thinks it is a calculator? Rolling your eyes at people for their so-called cultural ignorance of your obscure decoration is really stacking the deck.
posted by borges at 6:23 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by borges at 6:23 PM on October 2, 2012
Oh for crying out loud. It does look like a calculator.
Does it? It has numbers on it? Your calculators have decorative gold leaf patterns and circles around several of the keys?
posted by hippybear at 6:23 PM on October 2, 2012
Does it? It has numbers on it? Your calculators have decorative gold leaf patterns and circles around several of the keys?
posted by hippybear at 6:23 PM on October 2, 2012
So when he and the other black guy were told they were dressed too "thuggish," they were misremembering?
I don't know. Neither do you. Neither does anyone except these two black guys and the guy who allegedly told them this. That's the point.
posted by condiments at 6:25 PM on October 2, 2012
I don't know. Neither do you. Neither does anyone except these two black guys and the guy who allegedly told them this. That's the point.
posted by condiments at 6:25 PM on October 2, 2012
Post on Tumblr is gone. Anyone have the original somewhere?
posted by Lukenlogs at 6:26 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by Lukenlogs at 6:26 PM on October 2, 2012
Jesus. What happened to him his not ok. He should be angry. He should sue the shit out of them. That doesn't mean it's suddenly ok to be another racist douchebag.
OK. Let's take it from the top.
You have confused "bigoted" with "racist." The two are not synonymous. The author made an ethnic insult, which, while showing some level of bigotry, is entirely harmless venting. Outside of the fever dreams of republican candidates, black people are not systematically denigrating and assigning second-class citizen status to white people.
Because that's what racism is. It's using racial denigration to belittle and demean someone from a different ethnicity as a means of keeping them in line and institutionally subservient. So when Steve was calling him out for dressing thuggish, or made an ebonics joke, or asked if he could rap... he was creating a hostile environment. He was engaged in active harassment. He wasn't making a bigoted joke in bad taste. He was laying down a culture of subservience based on race. This is absolutely, emphatically not a "both sides are bad" situation. Cite.
And now you want to whine at the author for not "taking it" with more dignity? That's really your contribution here?
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:29 PM on October 2, 2012 [15 favorites]
OK. Let's take it from the top.
You have confused "bigoted" with "racist." The two are not synonymous. The author made an ethnic insult, which, while showing some level of bigotry, is entirely harmless venting. Outside of the fever dreams of republican candidates, black people are not systematically denigrating and assigning second-class citizen status to white people.
Because that's what racism is. It's using racial denigration to belittle and demean someone from a different ethnicity as a means of keeping them in line and institutionally subservient. So when Steve was calling him out for dressing thuggish, or made an ebonics joke, or asked if he could rap... he was creating a hostile environment. He was engaged in active harassment. He wasn't making a bigoted joke in bad taste. He was laying down a culture of subservience based on race. This is absolutely, emphatically not a "both sides are bad" situation. Cite.
And now you want to whine at the author for not "taking it" with more dignity? That's really your contribution here?
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:29 PM on October 2, 2012 [15 favorites]
Avoiding San Francisco, because you believe it to be a hotbed of racism, is pretty far out there in terms of paranoia. It's one of the most liberal and tolerant cities anywhere, not the town from the Dukes of Hazzard.
The author had moved from San Francisco to Oakland, so it seems less like a instance of "belief" and more one of "experience". A city doesn't have to be a hotbed of racism in order for a person to have experienced racism. I can't imagine telling black person that they must be paranoid if they think they've been at the receiving end of prejudicial behavior just because they lived in the City; how on earth could you know? San Francisco may be liberal and tolerant, but it doesn't keep men on the street from catcalling me. It doesn't stop San Franciscans I have known from calling Oakland "the ghetto" either. Whatever cities like to say about themselves as a place is always going to break down when you talk about individual lives and experiences.
At any rate, compared to Oakland, San Francisco is certainly more racially segregated.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:29 PM on October 2, 2012 [8 favorites]
The author had moved from San Francisco to Oakland, so it seems less like a instance of "belief" and more one of "experience". A city doesn't have to be a hotbed of racism in order for a person to have experienced racism. I can't imagine telling black person that they must be paranoid if they think they've been at the receiving end of prejudicial behavior just because they lived in the City; how on earth could you know? San Francisco may be liberal and tolerant, but it doesn't keep men on the street from catcalling me. It doesn't stop San Franciscans I have known from calling Oakland "the ghetto" either. Whatever cities like to say about themselves as a place is always going to break down when you talk about individual lives and experiences.
At any rate, compared to Oakland, San Francisco is certainly more racially segregated.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:29 PM on October 2, 2012 [8 favorites]
So when he and the other black guy were told they were dressed too "thuggish," they were misremembering?
I don't know. Neither do you. Neither does anyone except these two black guys and the guy who allegedly told them this. That's the point.
Why is that the point? That story about "dressed too thuggish" is pretty key to the whole account of his treatment there. Either you're saying he made the whole thing up, or exaggerated a comment like "hey, maybe don't wear sneakers when clients are here" into "you're dressed too thuggish" which would be ridiculous.
Why is it important to make a comment that he could have made the whole thing up? Anything on the internet can be made up. And who cares if we haven't heard of him before?
posted by sweetkid at 6:29 PM on October 2, 2012
I don't know. Neither do you. Neither does anyone except these two black guys and the guy who allegedly told them this. That's the point.
Why is that the point? That story about "dressed too thuggish" is pretty key to the whole account of his treatment there. Either you're saying he made the whole thing up, or exaggerated a comment like "hey, maybe don't wear sneakers when clients are here" into "you're dressed too thuggish" which would be ridiculous.
Why is it important to make a comment that he could have made the whole thing up? Anything on the internet can be made up. And who cares if we haven't heard of him before?
posted by sweetkid at 6:29 PM on October 2, 2012
Huh. I work directly with as many women as men, my last boss was an African-American man and my current boss's boss is a woman...and there are women and minorities all the way up the chain of command. Guess there's something to be said for working at a non-startup internet company. I can't imagine what I'd do if a brogrammer showed up. Be shocked, I suppose.
posted by davejay at 6:32 PM on October 2, 2012
posted by davejay at 6:32 PM on October 2, 2012
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posted by MCMikeNamara at 3:24 PM on October 2, 2012