Cool Story, Bro
May 5, 2016 8:10 AM Subscribe
The NYTimes Style Section has identified a new trend: Men reading books! In clubs! Which obviously need ultra-manly names. Never fear, Twitter to the rescue with #ManlyBookClubNames. Whether you read with the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Patriarchy or The Great Fratsby, Goodreads has some suggestions for your new ultra-manly reading life.
"Reading Rainbro" popped up SECONDS after I hit post, I totally would have titled it that!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:14 AM on May 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:14 AM on May 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
“I was always a little jealous of my wife’s book clubs,” Mr. McCullough said. “Now our wives are jealous of us. We’ve created something that is more durable. The book club my wife belongs to — there’s a lot of changeover.”
you must be a delight to be married to
posted by Kitteh at 8:17 AM on May 5, 2016 [107 favorites]
you must be a delight to be married to
posted by Kitteh at 8:17 AM on May 5, 2016 [107 favorites]
seems like you would get eyestrain reading in clubs
posted by dilaudid at 8:18 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by dilaudid at 8:18 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
I totally came to MF looking for this. I read the original article and it made me ... like yeah, eyeroll-y, but also just kinda sad. Like they really felt like they had to make a rule about not reading any books about women, by women? What about reading a book authored by one of half of the human race, or about one of half of the human race, was so threatening to their group identity that they actually had to institute a BAN?
It sucks how so many books featuring men as MCs, or only featuring men, are heralded as about "humanity," but if you reverse the genders it's "chick lit" or "women's fiction" only ... and somehow not only not worth reading, but also necessitating active defense. Like women are some sortof creeping infectious disease.
posted by alleycat01 at 8:19 AM on May 5, 2016 [60 favorites]
It sucks how so many books featuring men as MCs, or only featuring men, are heralded as about "humanity," but if you reverse the genders it's "chick lit" or "women's fiction" only ... and somehow not only not worth reading, but also necessitating active defense. Like women are some sortof creeping infectious disease.
posted by alleycat01 at 8:19 AM on May 5, 2016 [60 favorites]
Our wives are jealous of us, we built a bookclub of STEEL and RICH RECLAIMED TEAK and THE SMOKE FROM CIGARS
posted by beerperson at 8:20 AM on May 5, 2016 [41 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 8:20 AM on May 5, 2016 [41 favorites]
wait why can't men and women be in the same book club?
/reads article
oh
these clubs sound fucking terrible
posted by Hoopo at 8:21 AM on May 5, 2016 [23 favorites]
/reads article
oh
these clubs sound fucking terrible
posted by Hoopo at 8:21 AM on May 5, 2016 [23 favorites]
*prepares for stampede*
Actually, last night at my store we had an event based around a photo book called Hot Guys Reading or something like that, there were free cocktails and cupcakes involved. It happened after I punched out, so I don't know what the turnout was.
posted by jonmc at 8:21 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Actually, last night at my store we had an event based around a photo book called Hot Guys Reading or something like that, there were free cocktails and cupcakes involved. It happened after I punched out, so I don't know what the turnout was.
posted by jonmc at 8:21 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I kind of feel like I need to stop reading books now.
posted by dersins at 8:22 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by dersins at 8:22 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
What about reading a book authored by one of half of the human race, or about one of half of the human race, was so threatening to their group identity that they actually had to institute a BAN?
Men are very fragile and emotionally volatile. That's why they should be kept out of serious fields like science and politics.
posted by praemunire at 8:22 AM on May 5, 2016 [109 favorites]
Men are very fragile and emotionally volatile. That's why they should be kept out of serious fields like science and politics.
posted by praemunire at 8:22 AM on May 5, 2016 [109 favorites]
"Hey, bro. This novelization of Pushups: The Movie totes takes the piss out of the stability of existing heteronormative power structures during the early days of Reaganomics. I give it four our of five brozingas!"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:23 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:23 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
And the conspiracy for the patriarchy to take over and reclaim the 1950s continues.
posted by Melismata at 8:23 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 8:23 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can you imagine a MAN president? Constantly swayed by his EMOTIONS and FEAR OF FEMININITY
posted by beerperson at 8:24 AM on May 5, 2016 [61 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 8:24 AM on May 5, 2016 [61 favorites]
I stumbled across this article earlier by accident, like alleycay01, and all I could think was: who's so awful they had to find a way to use book clubs for evil?
Like they really felt like they had to make a rule about not reading any books about women, by women?
RIGHT? My all-male book club (coincidence!) has so far had our best conversation about a woman-penned, women-centered book. Because SERIOUSLY. BOOKS. are for PEOPLE.
Comparatively, our current Neal Stephenson travesty is like Orbital Dynamics: The Novel and I cannot wait to move on.
posted by psoas at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Like they really felt like they had to make a rule about not reading any books about women, by women?
RIGHT? My all-male book club (coincidence!) has so far had our best conversation about a woman-penned, women-centered book. Because SERIOUSLY. BOOKS. are for PEOPLE.
Comparatively, our current Neal Stephenson travesty is like Orbital Dynamics: The Novel and I cannot wait to move on.
posted by psoas at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
The book club my wife belongs to — there’s a lot of changeover
I've been in the same book club for 18 years, jackass. And yes, we have a guy. Only one: the others we've invited either think we're too loud, or not intellectual enough. Bah.
posted by suelac at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been in the same book club for 18 years, jackass. And yes, we have a guy. Only one: the others we've invited either think we're too loud, or not intellectual enough. Bah.
posted by suelac at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is it too early for an ungendered book club? Or would it end up infected with cooties and feminised by default, like formerly-masculine names like Lesley and Ashley?
posted by acb at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by acb at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Okay, I am all for men creating book clubs if it means they can actually enjoy forming close friendships, but shit, you can totally do that without being a-holes. If they didn't sound like a-holes, I wouldn't be mocking them.
posted by Kitteh at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [18 favorites]
“The first rule of Book Club is: you do not talk about Book Club”
posted by acb at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by acb at 8:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
I liked this point, from this piece:
There’s also a real problem with setting up a book club devoted to manliness in which writing by women is excluded. Because the fact is, in my experience as a man and (dare I admit) a reader, the most daring, thoughtful, and insightful discussions of masculinity have been written by women.posted by babelfish at 8:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [42 favorites]
This isn’t some sort of bizarre accident. It’s rooted in the same cultural givens which led some significant number of men to think that they’d look more manly if they put the word “MANLY” in the title of their book group. Women, for their own well-being, have to know how masculinity and the patriarchy work; men, for their own perceived well-being, have to keep themselves ignorant.
I've never had the patience for book clubs. Partly because I always regret devoting the time to reading a book I probably wouldn't be reading otherwise and partly because they always feel like a class I didn't want to take mixed with a party I didn't want to attend.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 8:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [22 favorites]
Wait, this 'reading' thing sounds suspiciously like it isn't CONSTANT PUNCHING
posted by beerperson at 8:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 8:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [30 favorites]
Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?
The International Ultra Manly Book Club, of Kansas City, Kan.!
posted by MonkeyToes at 8:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [44 favorites]
The International Ultra Manly Book Club, of Kansas City, Kan.!
posted by MonkeyToes at 8:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [44 favorites]
“No books by women about women (our cardinal rule)”
Toxic masculinity means asking another man to empathize with a woman's perspective is indistinguishable from directly insulting him.
posted by almostmanda at 8:30 AM on May 5, 2016 [76 favorites]
Toxic masculinity means asking another man to empathize with a woman's perspective is indistinguishable from directly insulting him.
posted by almostmanda at 8:30 AM on May 5, 2016 [76 favorites]
I get the knee-jerk reaction to this, and perhaps for some of the groups described it may be warranted, but some of them do sound like they're using the books to interrogate notions of "what it means to be a man."
posted by dnash at 8:30 AM on May 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
He said he understood her reaction. “Fiction is designed to examine empathy,” Mr. Nawotka said. “Men aren’t encouraged to talk about their feelings or emotions in public. When your friend gets divorced, you don’t sit around with the guys wondering, ‘How do you think Jon feels about getting divorced?’”In light of our recent thread about "teaching men to be emotionally honest" I have to say these clubs seem like a step in the right direction.
But over discussions of José Saramago, Haruki Murakami and Anthony Doerr, the 15 members of his group have formed a bond. “We’ve seen each other through family tragedies,” Mr. Nawotka said. “When I needed a divorce attorney, I turned to these guys.” And when the founding member’s wife died from cancer, all the club members attended the funeral.
posted by dnash at 8:30 AM on May 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
And a book club devoted to "manliness" could only be infinitely worse. You run along, dears. I'll just sit over here and read.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:32 AM on May 5, 2016
posted by octobersurprise at 8:32 AM on May 5, 2016
They read books only by men, in which the main characters are men—tomes like Henry Miller’s Tropic of Cancer
lol of course they do
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:32 AM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
lol of course they do
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:32 AM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
The idea of a book club for men sounds fine. The part where no books by/about women, no recommendations from women, so much awesomer than a group including women which would have constant churn: not so fine.
posted by jeather at 8:33 AM on May 5, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by jeather at 8:33 AM on May 5, 2016 [28 favorites]
Yeah I think it's kind-of a case of the NYT Style Section's special skill for making even cool things as annoying and off-putting as possible by finding its worst possible iteration. But! The Twitter club names makes it all worthwhile! Bros before Prose! Gone Girl! Edgar Allen Bro! The He-Man Franzen Lovers Club!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:34 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:34 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
There is also this weird impression that somehow when we women form book clubs, we read with our ladybits and not our brains.
posted by Kitteh at 8:36 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:36 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
I mean this is basically Esquire Magazine become animate.
posted by beerperson at 8:36 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 8:36 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
My first impression is that this is a great idea! Why shouldn't men be able to have a club like this? Ima just gonna read the article and —
(rules against books by women, snark over 'chick lit')
Ah, crud. They sound like awful people. Nevermind.
posted by kikaider01 at 8:40 AM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
(rules against books by women, snark over 'chick lit')
Ah, crud. They sound like awful people. Nevermind.
posted by kikaider01 at 8:40 AM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
“No books by women about women (our cardinal rule)”
If I had but palms enough to face.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 8:41 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
If I had but palms enough to face.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 8:41 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
They read books only by men, in which the main characters are men—tomes like Henry Miller’s Tropic of Cancer
lol of course they do
You laugh but you don't know what conversation they had about it. I could be giving them a too generous or optimistic reading of the article, but how do you know the group's discussion of Tropic of Cancer didn't center around "jeez, guys, Henry Miller had some seriously fucked up issues with women! What's up with that?" And isn't that exactly the sort of thing you'd want them to be talking about re: Miller?
posted by dnash at 8:41 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
lol of course they do
You laugh but you don't know what conversation they had about it. I could be giving them a too generous or optimistic reading of the article, but how do you know the group's discussion of Tropic of Cancer didn't center around "jeez, guys, Henry Miller had some seriously fucked up issues with women! What's up with that?" And isn't that exactly the sort of thing you'd want them to be talking about re: Miller?
posted by dnash at 8:41 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I feel for these guys just a bit, tho. Whatever they do will be subject to ire and scoffing. Maybe they should just go back to the drum circles.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:42 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 8:42 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
In light of our recent thread about "teaching men to be emotionally honest" I have to say these clubs seem like a step in the right direction.
Def don't disagree with this in general. Part of the problem is that the article rolled ALL men's book clubs under the umbrella of Ultra Manly Men Punching Things Because Feeling Are for Wimps clubs. When I read the piece I sort of thought, Oh man, I don' t know if the Houston Men's Book Club (whose member you cited) and the NYC Gay Guys’ Book Club are gonna like being lumped together with these other bros. Those clubs don't seem as aggressively"no cooties" as the ones that headed the article. E.g., they seem more about reading/fostering discussion than protecting some idea of endangered manhood.
posted by alleycat01 at 8:45 AM on May 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
Def don't disagree with this in general. Part of the problem is that the article rolled ALL men's book clubs under the umbrella of Ultra Manly Men Punching Things Because Feeling Are for Wimps clubs. When I read the piece I sort of thought, Oh man, I don' t know if the Houston Men's Book Club (whose member you cited) and the NYC Gay Guys’ Book Club are gonna like being lumped together with these other bros. Those clubs don't seem as aggressively"no cooties" as the ones that headed the article. E.g., they seem more about reading/fostering discussion than protecting some idea of endangered manhood.
posted by alleycat01 at 8:45 AM on May 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
Our cardinal rule is: No books by women! No books about women! Also, gee, Henry Miller seems to have some issues with women, and
posted by beerperson at 8:45 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 8:45 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'd never join a men's book club. Total sausage fest.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:46 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:46 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
In five years it'll turn into a "constantly re-reading Updike's Rabbit books" book club and they'll have no idea how it happened but everyone will be okay with it.
posted by griphus at 8:47 AM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by griphus at 8:47 AM on May 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
There is also this weird impression that somehow when we women form book clubs, we read with our ladybits and not our brains.
You turn the pages with your fingers, right?!? /Horrified
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:48 AM on May 5, 2016
You turn the pages with your fingers, right?!? /Horrified
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:48 AM on May 5, 2016
The He-Man Franzen Lovers Club!
No, it's #IreadalltheFranzenGlädjé. Heavens, try to be a little clever about this.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
No, it's #IreadalltheFranzenGlädjé. Heavens, try to be a little clever about this.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
But what really is Portnoy complaining about?!
posted by beerperson at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
"the men's fitness guide to home workouts" doesn't count as a book.
posted by boo_radley at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2016
posted by boo_radley at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2016
Liver problems.
posted by griphus at 8:50 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by griphus at 8:50 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
The International Ultra Manly Book Club, of Kansas City, Kan.Mansas City, Man.!
posted by uncleozzy at 8:52 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by uncleozzy at 8:52 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh noes! Women reading bodice busters, kids reading comic books, oldsters reading newspapers, teens reading glossy magazines, men reading books about men, whatever. People are reading. And, bonus, people are talking about what they read! People reading = good thing. Let 'em read.
posted by Elly Vortex at 8:55 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Elly Vortex at 8:55 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think I saw the headline on my occasional morning scan of NYTimes.com (free sub through work). I was dismayed, although perhaps what dnash suggests above will come to be - that, in spite of their initial attitudes, these men will have a greater emotional intelligence at the end of this.
But when I first saw the headline, I was pretty disappointed. I, a 40 year-old cisgender white dude have discovered women-writers-writing-about-women in my last five years, and they have generally been the best books I have read in my whole life. Sure, The Crying of Lot 49 or The Wind-up Bird Chronicle are great books, but my world actually tilted on its axis after reading Poisonwood Bible and Clan of the Cave Bear. The older I get, though, the more I see that the work of life is never finished.
posted by Slothrop at 8:55 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
But when I first saw the headline, I was pretty disappointed. I, a 40 year-old cisgender white dude have discovered women-writers-writing-about-women in my last five years, and they have generally been the best books I have read in my whole life. Sure, The Crying of Lot 49 or The Wind-up Bird Chronicle are great books, but my world actually tilted on its axis after reading Poisonwood Bible and Clan of the Cave Bear. The older I get, though, the more I see that the work of life is never finished.
posted by Slothrop at 8:55 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
As I got older it struck me that my Mom and her friends and I actually like to read a lot of the same kind of stuff. I actually got my mom interested in American Gods by Neil Gaiman a few years back and she got her book club reading that. She did not like how it started (main character starts out a bit of a macho manly man) but loved it by the end. So that was kinda neat. She also recommended to me another book the club did about 10 years back, called the Alienist. She sent it to me while I was living in Japan and I read it and it was this gruesome story about tracking down a mass murderer, it was like how the hell were you guys upstairs drinking and eating and laughing discussing this stuff and didn't invite me?
Though I still did eat all the left over appetizers and hors d'oeuvres so it's kind of like I was in the club
posted by Hoopo at 8:58 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Though I still did eat all the left over appetizers and hors d'oeuvres so it's kind of like I was in the club
posted by Hoopo at 8:58 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
men reading only books about men and listening only to music by men
because only other d00ds really get us, you know? we're totally Going Our Own Way
posted by Existential Dread at 8:59 AM on May 5, 2016
because only other d00ds really get us, you know? we're totally Going Our Own Way
posted by Existential Dread at 8:59 AM on May 5, 2016
> but how do you know the group's discussion of Tropic of Cancer didn't center around "jeez, guys, Henry Miller had some seriously fucked up issues with women! What's up with that?"
Anything is possible. But put this in the context of a group where the founder seems unaware that saying stuff like “We do not read so-called chick lit,” he said. “The main character cannot be a woman" and how his book club is so much more durable that his wife's (because there's less changeover?) can sound kind of problematic. They do not seem interested in women's experiences in literature at all, so I don't quite believe they would interrogate Miller's book in this way.
posted by rtha at 9:01 AM on May 5, 2016 [18 favorites]
Anything is possible. But put this in the context of a group where the founder seems unaware that saying stuff like “We do not read so-called chick lit,” he said. “The main character cannot be a woman" and how his book club is so much more durable that his wife's (because there's less changeover?) can sound kind of problematic. They do not seem interested in women's experiences in literature at all, so I don't quite believe they would interrogate Miller's book in this way.
posted by rtha at 9:01 AM on May 5, 2016 [18 favorites]
People reading = good thing. Let 'em read.
I've always found this opinion and the "all printed books are precious jewels!" opinion to be equally confounding. There's a lot, lot, lot of garbage out there that we would be better off if no one read and was never published or written in the first place.
posted by griphus at 9:02 AM on May 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
I've always found this opinion and the "all printed books are precious jewels!" opinion to be equally confounding. There's a lot, lot, lot of garbage out there that we would be better off if no one read and was never published or written in the first place.
posted by griphus at 9:02 AM on May 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
You know - I'm really getting tired of men making me embarrassed to be a man. And I'm tired of white people making me embarrassed to be white. And I'm tired of straight people making me embarrassed to be straight. And I'm tired of cis people embarrassed to be cis.
And - obviously! - this is not to say in any way that my annoyance holds a candle to the difficulties that non male/white/straight/cis people have to put up with. But I AM just fucking fed up with people sharing my demographics being assholes. STOP BEING ASSHOLES ALREADY
posted by Chrysostom at 9:05 AM on May 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
And - obviously! - this is not to say in any way that my annoyance holds a candle to the difficulties that non male/white/straight/cis people have to put up with. But I AM just fucking fed up with people sharing my demographics being assholes. STOP BEING ASSHOLES ALREADY
posted by Chrysostom at 9:05 AM on May 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
I don't quite believe they would interrogate Miller's book in this way.
And besides, if they're going to read Miller they should read Big Sur and the Oranges of Hieronymus Bosch or The Colossus of Maroussi or What Are You Going to Do about Alf? instead.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:10 AM on May 5, 2016
And besides, if they're going to read Miller they should read Big Sur and the Oranges of Hieronymus Bosch or The Colossus of Maroussi or What Are You Going to Do about Alf? instead.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:10 AM on May 5, 2016
Here's how my own toxic masculinity reads this: The instant that you specifically identify something as "manly", it's automatically the case that the people participating are not. Having to identify something as "manly" is a sign of anxiety about your masculinity, and anxiety is a sign of weakness, and anxiety and weakness are womanly.
If you want to maintain unimpeachable masculinity, at least according to my toxic masculinity meter, you can't give up the Default Human framing. As soon as you identify something as a subculture, it's no longer masculine. Explicitly calling something masculine makes it a subculture, which makes it no longer masculine.
Some of these guys are trying to move from Default Human toxic masculinity to recognizing masculinity as a thing, something that can be talked about, something to which there's an alternative. (They can talk about their feelings at these clubs! The can make real friends!) But there's something Uncanny Valley about it, something that squicks people out about the in-between space that's neither the Default Human man nor the Emotionally Comfortable man.
posted by clawsoon at 9:12 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
If you want to maintain unimpeachable masculinity, at least according to my toxic masculinity meter, you can't give up the Default Human framing. As soon as you identify something as a subculture, it's no longer masculine. Explicitly calling something masculine makes it a subculture, which makes it no longer masculine.
Some of these guys are trying to move from Default Human toxic masculinity to recognizing masculinity as a thing, something that can be talked about, something to which there's an alternative. (They can talk about their feelings at these clubs! The can make real friends!) But there's something Uncanny Valley about it, something that squicks people out about the in-between space that's neither the Default Human man nor the Emotionally Comfortable man.
posted by clawsoon at 9:12 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
(It isn't widely known that Henry Miller wrote about Alf. He was his biggest fan.)
posted by octobersurprise at 9:14 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by octobersurprise at 9:14 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Only books by men, about men? How do they even find such a thing?
posted by everybody had matching towels at 9:17 AM on May 5, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by everybody had matching towels at 9:17 AM on May 5, 2016 [16 favorites]
everybody had matching towels: Only books by men, about men? How do they even find such a thing?
A history book club would be pretty much that, at least if you stuck to books written before, what, the '70s or so?
posted by clawsoon at 9:19 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
A history book club would be pretty much that, at least if you stuck to books written before, what, the '70s or so?
posted by clawsoon at 9:19 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
"the men's fitness guide to home workouts" doesn't count as a book.
bro do you even lift
posted by the webmistress at 9:24 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
bro do you even lift
posted by the webmistress at 9:24 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
How do they even find such a thing?
you laugh, but george eliot has given them trust issues.
(more seriously, don't any of you folk have aging fathers who are lonely and clueless and culturally tone deaf? i'd love for my father to be in one of these. yeah, maybe i'd try explain to him a little about privilege, and maybe i'd wince at the whole idea, but i'd also be glad he was doing something, in all honesty, that involved friendship and books and conversation. old men are culturally in a weird place once work ends.)
posted by andrewcooke at 9:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
you laugh, but george eliot has given them trust issues.
(more seriously, don't any of you folk have aging fathers who are lonely and clueless and culturally tone deaf? i'd love for my father to be in one of these. yeah, maybe i'd try explain to him a little about privilege, and maybe i'd wince at the whole idea, but i'd also be glad he was doing something, in all honesty, that involved friendship and books and conversation. old men are culturally in a weird place once work ends.)
posted by andrewcooke at 9:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
Hear me out here. A while back, my local library had these recommended reading lists for women taped up on the shelves. It was just a seemingly random selection of books by or featuring women. Like, there was some Toni Morrison, a couple of books by men about women, books about gal pals shopping and talking about boys. It was sticking in my craw, so I emailed the head librarian about it, she emailed back that she thought it was silly too, but some people had asked for something like that, and she told me I should see the "Chick Lit" one she'd rejected. (Apparently, they subscribe to some sort of service that makes lists like that?)
Anyway, I told her that if she ever needed a pro bono "Pros for Bros" reading list, I'd be happy to provide her one. Also I sort of threatened that if I ever saw that chick lit one, I was just going to go tape them up myself.
I actually made one, too. Just random books. Some Dan Brown, some cheesy looking Star Wars fan fiction thing, and some books about manliness by women. It was poorly implemented, though, because there were too many words for me to fit all the clip art I wanted. (I had sports things, cars, sexy ladies, and a classy guy tipping his hat, I think.)
posted by ernielundquist at 9:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
Anyway, I told her that if she ever needed a pro bono "Pros for Bros" reading list, I'd be happy to provide her one. Also I sort of threatened that if I ever saw that chick lit one, I was just going to go tape them up myself.
I actually made one, too. Just random books. Some Dan Brown, some cheesy looking Star Wars fan fiction thing, and some books about manliness by women. It was poorly implemented, though, because there were too many words for me to fit all the clip art I wanted. (I had sports things, cars, sexy ladies, and a classy guy tipping his hat, I think.)
posted by ernielundquist at 9:28 AM on May 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
i'd love for my father to be in one of these.
I think we can simultaneously be concerned with late-age male alienation and bonding and express the idea that the No Gurl Buks Aloud part of the club is inexcusably dumb as shit.
posted by griphus at 9:29 AM on May 5, 2016 [32 favorites]
I think we can simultaneously be concerned with late-age male alienation and bonding and express the idea that the No Gurl Buks Aloud part of the club is inexcusably dumb as shit.
posted by griphus at 9:29 AM on May 5, 2016 [32 favorites]
Only books by men, about men? How do they even find such a thing?A history book club would be pretty much that, at least if you stuck to books written before, what, the '70s or so?
*woosh*
I used to be involved in this social circle where the wives would hang out separately from the husbands a good chunk of the time. Since the wives had a book club, the dudes countered with "Magazine Club." Because the dudes obviously couldn't be expected to read whole books and have discussions about them. I don't hang out with any of those people anymore.
Book clubs in general are such a weirdly gender-coded thing, that I do kind of applaud the idea of a "Men's Book Club." I kind of hate the "only books by men about men" thing though. Hopefully, once their masculinity is made a little less fragile (by, you know, reading), they'll "experiment" with a few lady books now and then.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:30 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
And when the founding member’s wife died from cancer, all the club members attended the funeral.
That's..basic human decency? Do they want gold stars for recognizing a wife might be important or something?
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:34 AM on May 5, 2016 [39 favorites]
That's..basic human decency? Do they want gold stars for recognizing a wife might be important or something?
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:34 AM on May 5, 2016 [39 favorites]
I did like "Girl Interrupted, Again" as a possible group title.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:39 AM on May 5, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:39 AM on May 5, 2016 [28 favorites]
Just wait til they read these classics by George Sand, Currer Bell, and Isak Dinesen!
And if they prefer science fiction, I understand that James Tiptree Jr. has written some very interesting stories about masculinity...
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:39 AM on May 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
And if they prefer science fiction, I understand that James Tiptree Jr. has written some very interesting stories about masculinity...
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:39 AM on May 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
sparklemotion: *woosh*
Wait... whuh... ohhhhh.
I'll just sit over hear being dumb.
posted by clawsoon at 9:39 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wait... whuh... ohhhhh.
I'll just sit over hear being dumb.
posted by clawsoon at 9:39 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
All I know is that as a young man in a new city about a year ago, I tried to find a book club to make friends and discovered that every single one in my city advertised anywhere online was for women only. It had never even occurred to me that a book club might be a gendered activity. I never did make any new friends.
posted by unknownmosquito at 9:40 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by unknownmosquito at 9:40 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
I am a male librarian who reads a lot, but book clubs...*trails off* I'm sure there must be good ones, but all of the meetings I've facilitated at work have generally been collections of people who want to a) show off their intellectual superiority, b) start passive-aggressive fights or c) both.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:41 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:41 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Book clubs in general are such a weirdly gender-coded thing, that I do kind of applaud the idea of a "Men's Book Club."
Maybe where you are it's gender-coded. Both the book clubs I've checked out actually had slightly more men than women, there was no gender theme required and no one made a big deal about it.
(And may I take this opportunity to pitch for the one that I still belong to, because its focus is on a very specific niche of fiction, which has drawn a really cool mix of people and it has been going on for eight years and is awesome so if you are in NYC come check it out.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:41 AM on May 5, 2016
Maybe where you are it's gender-coded. Both the book clubs I've checked out actually had slightly more men than women, there was no gender theme required and no one made a big deal about it.
(And may I take this opportunity to pitch for the one that I still belong to, because its focus is on a very specific niche of fiction, which has drawn a really cool mix of people and it has been going on for eight years and is awesome so if you are in NYC come check it out.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:41 AM on May 5, 2016
all of the meetings I've facilitated at work have generally been collections of people who want to a) show off their intellectual superiority, b) start passive-aggressive fights or c) both.
So, like, live action internet role-playing?
posted by octobersurprise at 9:48 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
So, like, live action internet role-playing?
posted by octobersurprise at 9:48 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Both the book clubs I've been involved with have been gender inclusive. They were started by friends, though - not ones I joined as a stranger. Despite having women in both clubs, we never had any books about shoe loving, cupcake baking, kitten petting, romance seeking, flighty young women on the list!
And oddly, in both clubs we read a wide-ranging list of books, fiction and non-fiction, by women and men, with all sorts of voices and lead characters. And I only ever had to read The Sportswriter once (which was one time too many.)
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:48 AM on May 5, 2016
And oddly, in both clubs we read a wide-ranging list of books, fiction and non-fiction, by women and men, with all sorts of voices and lead characters. And I only ever had to read The Sportswriter once (which was one time too many.)
posted by Squeak Attack at 9:48 AM on May 5, 2016
What is the point of reading if you're going out of your way to avoid experiencing outside perspectives? Shaking up one's worldview is the best part.
posted by zarq at 9:50 AM on May 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by zarq at 9:50 AM on May 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
anyway a big part of what makes this so funny is the NYT Style Guide tone of "reading? fOR MEN?"
I do feel a little for the Houston Men’s Book Club and the NYC Gay Guys’ Book Club which seem like pretty normal social/reading groups being lumped in with third graders afraid of cooties, but hopefully they're having a good laugh at this too.
posted by Krom Tatman at 9:51 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
I do feel a little for the Houston Men’s Book Club and the NYC Gay Guys’ Book Club which seem like pretty normal social/reading groups being lumped in with third graders afraid of cooties, but hopefully they're having a good laugh at this too.
posted by Krom Tatman at 9:51 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
You know - I'm really getting tired of men making me embarrassed to be a man.
I have started to feel angry on behalf of the non-asshole men I love, that "being a man=being an asshole" is the constant cultural refrain. They don't want to be assholes. They don't like assholes. But to people who don't know them, they have to be treated with caution, thanks to all the actual assholes who look like them.
That sucks. Not as much as it sucks to be an asshole's victim, but it sucks.
posted by emjaybee at 9:52 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
I have started to feel angry on behalf of the non-asshole men I love, that "being a man=being an asshole" is the constant cultural refrain. They don't want to be assholes. They don't like assholes. But to people who don't know them, they have to be treated with caution, thanks to all the actual assholes who look like them.
That sucks. Not as much as it sucks to be an asshole's victim, but it sucks.
posted by emjaybee at 9:52 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
(forgot to add that in my book club we have wine and cookies at every meeting seriously it is F'ING AWESOME people come check it out)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on May 5, 2016
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:53 AM on May 5, 2016
Kudos to you! You've managed to encapsulate the only male micro-demographic more annoying than the bros--the PC Anti-Bros!! You go, boy! Er, sorry. You go, white/male/straight/cis person!
That seems unfair. Is there no space for white/male/straight/cis people to express frustration that so many other white/male/straight/cis people are assholes who give the rest of us a bad name? Yes, obviously we know that this frustration is nothing compared to the actual oppression suffered by people who are not white/male/straight/cis, but the frustration exists nonetheless. Other (straight, white, cis) men are horrible, and sometimes I'm just sick of having to be lumped in with them.
Back on topic, this article made me sad. As a grown-up man who is a big reader and who has difficulty connecting with other grown-up men for exactly the reasons stated above, I would love to be in a book club with other men. [Sure, a co-ed book club is a fine idea, but I recognize that my wife needs a space in which to connect with other women, and why shouldn't I get the same opportunity with other guys?] So the "no books by or about women" thing in this article is incredibly frustrating. Women read books by and about men all the time (my wife's book club is currently reading Shadow of the Wind), but we have to be some kind of He-Man Woman-Haters Club? It's just ridiculous.
At work, I feel like I'm supposed to talk about the latest sports game instead of the interesting book I just read, and it can be exhausting. I'm not expecting pity or anything, but this sort of thing just makes me want to say "fuck it" and not bother.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:53 AM on May 5, 2016 [15 favorites]
That seems unfair. Is there no space for white/male/straight/cis people to express frustration that so many other white/male/straight/cis people are assholes who give the rest of us a bad name? Yes, obviously we know that this frustration is nothing compared to the actual oppression suffered by people who are not white/male/straight/cis, but the frustration exists nonetheless. Other (straight, white, cis) men are horrible, and sometimes I'm just sick of having to be lumped in with them.
Back on topic, this article made me sad. As a grown-up man who is a big reader and who has difficulty connecting with other grown-up men for exactly the reasons stated above, I would love to be in a book club with other men. [Sure, a co-ed book club is a fine idea, but I recognize that my wife needs a space in which to connect with other women, and why shouldn't I get the same opportunity with other guys?] So the "no books by or about women" thing in this article is incredibly frustrating. Women read books by and about men all the time (my wife's book club is currently reading Shadow of the Wind), but we have to be some kind of He-Man Woman-Haters Club? It's just ridiculous.
At work, I feel like I'm supposed to talk about the latest sports game instead of the interesting book I just read, and it can be exhausting. I'm not expecting pity or anything, but this sort of thing just makes me want to say "fuck it" and not bother.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:53 AM on May 5, 2016 [15 favorites]
> So, like, live action internet role-playing?
More like a university English class with no professor.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:55 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
More like a university English class with no professor.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:55 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
I've always found this opinion and the "all printed books are precious jewels!" opinion to be equally confounding. There's a lot, lot, lot of garbage out there that we would be better off if no one read and was never published or written in the first place.
Not to single you out but to iterate on the idea: "There is a lot, lot of garbage out there" and I think everyone everywhere is better off when people who read such "garbage" books also read other books and are exposed to other ideas which help said readers form a critical perspective according to which they can form their own opinions…
even if those opinions are different than the ones I would make using my critical perspective.
There are few things I believe more strongly than this.
posted by mistersquid at 9:56 AM on May 5, 2016
Not to single you out but to iterate on the idea: "There is a lot, lot of garbage out there" and I think everyone everywhere is better off when people who read such "garbage" books also read other books and are exposed to other ideas which help said readers form a critical perspective according to which they can form their own opinions…
even if those opinions are different than the ones I would make using my critical perspective.
There are few things I believe more strongly than this.
posted by mistersquid at 9:56 AM on May 5, 2016
which is to say that I really don't think there is such a thing as bad freedom of expression
posted by mistersquid at 9:58 AM on May 5, 2016
posted by mistersquid at 9:58 AM on May 5, 2016
That's..basic human decency? Do they want gold stars for recognizing a wife might be important or something?
Okay, so I am admittedly giving these guys a more charitable interpretation here because this particular bit refers to the Houston Men's Book Club, which as others have pointed out, doesn't seem quite as aggressively He-Man Woman Haters Club as some of the other clubs mentioned, but I think this was more to point out the emotional bonding that these men have done with each other on a level that transcends a simple recreational club. I'm a part of some clubs (via meetup) and I can't say that I would necessarily attend other members' relatives' funerals, nor would I want them at my hypothetical spouse's. We just... don't have much to do with each other outside of the club.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 9:58 AM on May 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
Okay, so I am admittedly giving these guys a more charitable interpretation here because this particular bit refers to the Houston Men's Book Club, which as others have pointed out, doesn't seem quite as aggressively He-Man Woman Haters Club as some of the other clubs mentioned, but I think this was more to point out the emotional bonding that these men have done with each other on a level that transcends a simple recreational club. I'm a part of some clubs (via meetup) and I can't say that I would necessarily attend other members' relatives' funerals, nor would I want them at my hypothetical spouse's. We just... don't have much to do with each other outside of the club.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 9:58 AM on May 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
Brose is a brose is a brose.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:00 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:00 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
yeah, and I read the funeral thing as being a response influenced by the reporter presumably asking about how the club has affected their relationships, which makes it substantially less weird than if someone just volunteered it out of the blue
posted by Krom Tatman at 10:01 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Krom Tatman at 10:01 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Two years ago, Edward Nawotka, 44, a writer and editor in Houston, was out for drinks with the guys from his reading group, the Houston Men’s Book Club, when a woman started hitting on its president.
“She asked how we knew each other, and when we said, ‘book club,’ she was like, ‘Wait, are you gay?’” Mr. Nawotka said.
Just in case you needed a reminder that women can also be horrible enforcers of the patriarchy. OMG, I just want to push people like this down a well.
I have actually been idly considering starting a book club (or sketching/drawing club, I haven't decided yet) that meets in my home, and have been putting it off because of logistics, but this is giving me a little push to do it and include men. I had been unconsciously envisioning it as a women-only thing, because most of the friends I want to get to know better are women, but you know, most of my social groups are unnecessarily gendered and I really, really hate it when e.g. an old friend is in town with her boyfriend (who I adore hanging out with because he's awesome) and oh no, he can't join us because he's a MAAAAN! Like I'm actually pretty sure that in most of my social circles she would actually make him go sit at a cafe by himself for an hour, or not meet up, or the person organizing the book club would move it to another night, and when I suggest they just join us I get "Oh no no no, it's girl time!" THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNDER MY ROOF, SO HELP ME GOD.
I just downloaded the Rock Clock and this is going to be my new goal. Every morning I shall be awakened by Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson smashing a harp, shouting "Jabroni!", and telling me to start an awesome gender-inclusive book club. TAKE THAT, TOXIC MASCULINITY
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:01 AM on May 5, 2016 [20 favorites]
“She asked how we knew each other, and when we said, ‘book club,’ she was like, ‘Wait, are you gay?’” Mr. Nawotka said.
Just in case you needed a reminder that women can also be horrible enforcers of the patriarchy. OMG, I just want to push people like this down a well.
I have actually been idly considering starting a book club (or sketching/drawing club, I haven't decided yet) that meets in my home, and have been putting it off because of logistics, but this is giving me a little push to do it and include men. I had been unconsciously envisioning it as a women-only thing, because most of the friends I want to get to know better are women, but you know, most of my social groups are unnecessarily gendered and I really, really hate it when e.g. an old friend is in town with her boyfriend (who I adore hanging out with because he's awesome) and oh no, he can't join us because he's a MAAAAN! Like I'm actually pretty sure that in most of my social circles she would actually make him go sit at a cafe by himself for an hour, or not meet up, or the person organizing the book club would move it to another night, and when I suggest they just join us I get "Oh no no no, it's girl time!" THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNDER MY ROOF, SO HELP ME GOD.
I just downloaded the Rock Clock and this is going to be my new goal. Every morning I shall be awakened by Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson smashing a harp, shouting "Jabroni!", and telling me to start an awesome gender-inclusive book club. TAKE THAT, TOXIC MASCULINITY
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:01 AM on May 5, 2016 [20 favorites]
What is the point of reading if you're going out of your way to avoid experiencing outside perspectives?
I think it would be a bit of an overstatement to imply that a man can't find an outside perspective in a book written by a man with a male main character. There's a lot of people out there with a lot of very different experiences than mine.
But yeah it seems kinda dumb to intentionally limit the scope of what you can read to this degree.
posted by Hoopo at 10:05 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it would be a bit of an overstatement to imply that a man can't find an outside perspective in a book written by a man with a male main character. There's a lot of people out there with a lot of very different experiences than mine.
But yeah it seems kinda dumb to intentionally limit the scope of what you can read to this degree.
posted by Hoopo at 10:05 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
> You know - I'm really getting tired of men making me embarrassed to be a man. And I'm tired of white people making me embarrassed to be white. And I'm tired of straight people making me embarrassed to be straight. And I'm tired of cis people embarrassed to be cis.
Where did you get the idea that people who shared your gender, or skin color, or sexual orientation, would be someone you share interests with, or looked at the world the same way, or shared the same standards of decency with? Every group has members who are assholes, inconsiderates, fools, etc. The trick is to say "I don't care if we're in the same group. You're an asshole.", and not to be fooled in to thinking that some mystic group ethos demands you ignore the assholishness of your fellow man, or white person, or straight-o, or whatever.
I'm a man, but the world of men has never asked my advice on how to behave, and honestly many men seem to frequently go exactly the opposite way I think is good or kind or proper. They're men, I'm a man. They're assholes, I'm not an asshole. If someone wants to lump me in with them 'cause they only look at my gender, and not my behavior, well .... I don't really know what to do about that. I really don't. It's just very tiring.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:05 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Where did you get the idea that people who shared your gender, or skin color, or sexual orientation, would be someone you share interests with, or looked at the world the same way, or shared the same standards of decency with? Every group has members who are assholes, inconsiderates, fools, etc. The trick is to say "I don't care if we're in the same group. You're an asshole.", and not to be fooled in to thinking that some mystic group ethos demands you ignore the assholishness of your fellow man, or white person, or straight-o, or whatever.
I'm a man, but the world of men has never asked my advice on how to behave, and honestly many men seem to frequently go exactly the opposite way I think is good or kind or proper. They're men, I'm a man. They're assholes, I'm not an asshole. If someone wants to lump me in with them 'cause they only look at my gender, and not my behavior, well .... I don't really know what to do about that. I really don't. It's just very tiring.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:05 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
>> I have started to feel angry on behalf of the non-asshole men I love, that "being a man=being an asshole" is the constant cultural refrain. They don't want to be assholes. They don't like assholes. But to people who don't know them, they have to be treated with caution, thanks to all the actual assholes who look like them.
>> At work, I feel like I'm supposed to talk about the latest sports game instead of the interesting book I just read, and it can be exhausting. I'm not expecting pity or anything, but this sort of thing just makes me want to say "fuck it" and not bother.
>> “She asked how we knew each other, and when we said, ‘book club,’ she was like, ‘Wait, are you gay?’” Mr. Nawotka said.
Well i mean that's what really sucks, getting down to the root of it. This kind of expectations narrative, that men-must-be-men-RAWR and being-a-man-means-NO-FEELINGS, hurts everybody. It hurts the the "victims of assholes," it hurts the people who aren't "assholes but look like them," it hurts the kids (boys and girls both) who grow up believing in & becoming part of it.
[So in summation, maybe I should instead get pissy at the reporter who wrote these clubs up with this specific angle? PERPETUATING STEREOTYPES etc.]
posted by alleycat01 at 10:06 AM on May 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
>> At work, I feel like I'm supposed to talk about the latest sports game instead of the interesting book I just read, and it can be exhausting. I'm not expecting pity or anything, but this sort of thing just makes me want to say "fuck it" and not bother.
>> “She asked how we knew each other, and when we said, ‘book club,’ she was like, ‘Wait, are you gay?’” Mr. Nawotka said.
Well i mean that's what really sucks, getting down to the root of it. This kind of expectations narrative, that men-must-be-men-RAWR and being-a-man-means-NO-FEELINGS, hurts everybody. It hurts the the "victims of assholes," it hurts the people who aren't "assholes but look like them," it hurts the kids (boys and girls both) who grow up believing in & becoming part of it.
[So in summation, maybe I should instead get pissy at the reporter who wrote these clubs up with this specific angle? PERPETUATING STEREOTYPES etc.]
posted by alleycat01 at 10:06 AM on May 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
If someone wants to lump me in with them 'cause they only look at my gender, and not my behavior, well .... I don't really know what to do about that. I really don't. It's just very tiring.
It is literally so ingrained that the NYT is doing it, and it is helped along by dudes who act like reading a book by or about a woman would undermine...something. You really can't understand why that would get Chrysostom down?
posted by Krom Tatman at 10:09 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
It is literally so ingrained that the NYT is doing it, and it is helped along by dudes who act like reading a book by or about a woman would undermine...something. You really can't understand why that would get Chrysostom down?
posted by Krom Tatman at 10:09 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
If someone wants to lump me in with them 'cause they only look at my gender, and not my behavior, well .... I don't really know what to do about that. I really don't. It's just very tiring.
I've found the answer to be "empathize with why they're doing that." Because unlike opinions of non-White Dudes, generally it's not stereotypes and rumors that get someone to that place as far as White Dudes are concerned.
posted by griphus at 10:09 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
I've found the answer to be "empathize with why they're doing that." Because unlike opinions of non-White Dudes, generally it's not stereotypes and rumors that get someone to that place as far as White Dudes are concerned.
posted by griphus at 10:09 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
I get that it can be tough for men being seen as outsiders, and that joining a predominantly female book club might be daunting, but everyone else deals with that sort of thing all the time.
Those guys in the California one seem particularly fragile. It would have been plenty easy to to start a book club with men without being so defensive and hostile about it.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:13 AM on May 5, 2016
Those guys in the California one seem particularly fragile. It would have been plenty easy to to start a book club with men without being so defensive and hostile about it.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:13 AM on May 5, 2016
very aware of mansplaining here, this will be my last post for a while
I think women-only book clubs make historical and cultural sense because, unfortunately, even large discussion groups are often dominated by a minority of one (unthinking and unchecked) man.*
Such participation imbalance was very clear to me in the literature classes I've taught and I employed various pedagogical techniques to ensure women had as level a speaking field as possible.
* FWIW, I also did my best to make sure I was not that single unchecked man.
posted by mistersquid at 10:13 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think women-only book clubs make historical and cultural sense because, unfortunately, even large discussion groups are often dominated by a minority of one (unthinking and unchecked) man.*
Such participation imbalance was very clear to me in the literature classes I've taught and I employed various pedagogical techniques to ensure women had as level a speaking field as possible.
* FWIW, I also did my best to make sure I was not that single unchecked man.
posted by mistersquid at 10:13 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's a lot, lot, lot of garbage out there that we would be better off if no one read and was never published or written in the first place.
Oh yeah, I agree. I see books every day that make me cringe. But it's not for me to decide what people choose to read or how they choose to read. People over history have freaked out about "x people reading x thing" over and over again. I think it's just kind of old to point and laugh at/judge/hate/etc what people are reading and how they choose to read.
posted by Elly Vortex at 10:19 AM on May 5, 2016
Oh yeah, I agree. I see books every day that make me cringe. But it's not for me to decide what people choose to read or how they choose to read. People over history have freaked out about "x people reading x thing" over and over again. I think it's just kind of old to point and laugh at/judge/hate/etc what people are reading and how they choose to read.
posted by Elly Vortex at 10:19 AM on May 5, 2016
People over history have freaked out about "x people reading x thing" over and over again.
that's not really what's happening here, and indeed it has not happened throughout history regarding the rugged manly men genre
posted by Krom Tatman at 10:21 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
that's not really what's happening here, and indeed it has not happened throughout history regarding the rugged manly men genre
posted by Krom Tatman at 10:21 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
There is also this weird impression that somehow when we women form book clubs, we read with our ladybits and not our brains.
You turn the pages with your fingers, right?!? /Horrified
Vagina tentaculata comes in handy.
posted by romakimmy at 10:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
You turn the pages with your fingers, right?!? /Horrified
Vagina tentaculata comes in handy.
posted by romakimmy at 10:25 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
All I know is that as a young man in a new city about a year ago, I tried to find a book club to make friends and discovered that every single one in my city advertised anywhere online was for women only.
I find this to be quite weird. I know there are some book groups that are explicitly women-only, but unless you're in, like, Riyadh, it can't be all of them. I've never even noticed a place where the majority of them were by rule women-only.
posted by praemunire at 10:29 AM on May 5, 2016
I find this to be quite weird. I know there are some book groups that are explicitly women-only, but unless you're in, like, Riyadh, it can't be all of them. I've never even noticed a place where the majority of them were by rule women-only.
posted by praemunire at 10:29 AM on May 5, 2016
Catch-22% Pay Gap
posted by ijoshua at 10:42 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by ijoshua at 10:42 AM on May 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
In light of our recent thread about "teaching men to be emotionally honest" I have to say these clubs seem like a step in the right direction.
Maybe. I recently left the men's book club I'd been part of for more than a decade. Bunch of successful, "progressive" Marin white guys. Lots of entitled, fratty behavior; I can't count the number of times the cops found it necessary to interact with us, and was always amazed at how they let us walk. And almost universal hatred for the two (two!) books by women (Barbara Ehrenreich and Donna Tartt) we read during my time. Things came to a head for me when I was ganged up on after protesting that, no, I wouldn't fuck a neo-Nazi chick, no matter how hot she was. I was in a frat in college; I have no interest in being in one in my 50s.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:44 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
Maybe. I recently left the men's book club I'd been part of for more than a decade. Bunch of successful, "progressive" Marin white guys. Lots of entitled, fratty behavior; I can't count the number of times the cops found it necessary to interact with us, and was always amazed at how they let us walk. And almost universal hatred for the two (two!) books by women (Barbara Ehrenreich and Donna Tartt) we read during my time. Things came to a head for me when I was ganged up on after protesting that, no, I wouldn't fuck a neo-Nazi chick, no matter how hot she was. I was in a frat in college; I have no interest in being in one in my 50s.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:44 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
but my world actually tilted on its axis after reading Poisonwood Bible and Clan of the Cave Bear.
Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale and Cat's Eye for me.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:50 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale and Cat's Eye for me.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:50 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh god, Cat's Eye. I wanted to go apologize to every woman I've ever met after reading that.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 10:53 AM on May 5, 2016
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 10:53 AM on May 5, 2016
Cat's Eye is Margaret Atwood's masterpiece as far as I'm concerned. (Though she has some short stories which are nearly as good.)
Fond memories of it kept me reading her SF for quite a while until it ground me down and I went back to reading enjoyable stuff. Guess what I'm saying is if you're someone who felt Oryx and Crate was sandpaper on the eyes, go read Cat's Eye.
posted by bswinburn at 11:03 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fond memories of it kept me reading her SF for quite a while until it ground me down and I went back to reading enjoyable stuff. Guess what I'm saying is if you're someone who felt Oryx and Crate was sandpaper on the eyes, go read Cat's Eye.
posted by bswinburn at 11:03 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lots of entitled, fratty behavior; I can't count the number of times the cops found it necessary to interact with us,
! I am amazed. I cannot imagine any circumstances under which my book club would interact with the cops.
(Although there was that story about the black women's book club that the Napa Wine Train thought was too loud, and kicked them off, and got roundly shamed, and now has settled a lawsuit.)
posted by suelac at 11:04 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
! I am amazed. I cannot imagine any circumstances under which my book club would interact with the cops.
(Although there was that story about the black women's book club that the Napa Wine Train thought was too loud, and kicked them off, and got roundly shamed, and now has settled a lawsuit.)
posted by suelac at 11:04 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I too would like to know more about the cops breaking up your book club.
posted by griphus at 11:07 AM on May 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by griphus at 11:07 AM on May 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
> You really can't understand why that would get Chrysostom down?
Of course it would. It gets me down. Lots of people suck. Lots of them base their suck in some identity they claim. The guys in the article sound like closed-minded doofuses who I wouldn't want to have much to do with. I just don't let them define what it is for me to be a man, any more than I let Esquire magazine.
> It is literally so ingrained that the NYT is doing it, and it is helped along by dudes who act like reading a book by or about a woman would undermine...something.
I've got higher hopes for the level of discourse at MetaFilter than the NYT.
> I've found the answer to be "empathize with why they're doing that." Because unlike opinions of non-White Dudes, generally it's not stereotypes and rumors that get someone to that place as far as White Dudes are concerned.
There are plenty of white dudes who are assholes specifically across gender and race lines. My heart breaks sometimes reading AskMe questions about the level of shit women report having to deal with. It's the generalizing it to all men and then promoting it as the image of all men that bothers me. I empathize with the suffering, and I criticize giving in to common tendency to turn it into a prejudice.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:10 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Of course it would. It gets me down. Lots of people suck. Lots of them base their suck in some identity they claim. The guys in the article sound like closed-minded doofuses who I wouldn't want to have much to do with. I just don't let them define what it is for me to be a man, any more than I let Esquire magazine.
> It is literally so ingrained that the NYT is doing it, and it is helped along by dudes who act like reading a book by or about a woman would undermine...something.
I've got higher hopes for the level of discourse at MetaFilter than the NYT.
> I've found the answer to be "empathize with why they're doing that." Because unlike opinions of non-White Dudes, generally it's not stereotypes and rumors that get someone to that place as far as White Dudes are concerned.
There are plenty of white dudes who are assholes specifically across gender and race lines. My heart breaks sometimes reading AskMe questions about the level of shit women report having to deal with. It's the generalizing it to all men and then promoting it as the image of all men that bothers me. I empathize with the suffering, and I criticize giving in to common tendency to turn it into a prejudice.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:10 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Does this mean bros will stop reading Ayn Rand? I'm all for that.
posted by cj_ at 11:17 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by cj_ at 11:17 AM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
I assume there's a lot of Philip K. Dick on display.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:24 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:24 AM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Just to avoid a longer derail on this, let's take it as a given that people are talking about "many men" or "men who have these views or do these behaviors," not literally all men.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:31 AM on May 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:31 AM on May 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
Just to avoid a longer derail on this ...
It isn't clear to me what rail this thread should be riding on. But anyways, if I may make a suggestion, let me recommend William Decker's cowboy novel To Be A Man to the next manly bookclub gathering. Selected by The New York Times as one of their top ten novels of 1967, Wallace Stegner called it "as authentic as sagebrush and dirt" and between Stegner, cowboys, and dirt, I don't think you're going to get much more manly. Why it's even got "man" in the title. Alternately, let me suggest Broadway Joe's I Can't Wait Until Tomorrow ...'Cause I Get Better Looking Every Day. I keep a copy of this in my bathroom and it never fails to delight. Here's a picture of Joe signing a copy to Peggy Fleming in 1969.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:50 PM on May 5, 2016
It isn't clear to me what rail this thread should be riding on. But anyways, if I may make a suggestion, let me recommend William Decker's cowboy novel To Be A Man to the next manly bookclub gathering. Selected by The New York Times as one of their top ten novels of 1967, Wallace Stegner called it "as authentic as sagebrush and dirt" and between Stegner, cowboys, and dirt, I don't think you're going to get much more manly. Why it's even got "man" in the title. Alternately, let me suggest Broadway Joe's I Can't Wait Until Tomorrow ...'Cause I Get Better Looking Every Day. I keep a copy of this in my bathroom and it never fails to delight. Here's a picture of Joe signing a copy to Peggy Fleming in 1969.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:50 PM on May 5, 2016
Dammit he's a man.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:53 PM on May 5, 2016
posted by octobersurprise at 12:53 PM on May 5, 2016
You know all of this is a front. The moment the reporter goes away they are all sniffling and saying, "Why did Little Dorrit have to die?"
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:12 PM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:12 PM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
Like when Joey had to put Little Women in the freezer!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:14 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:14 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm stoked dudes are bonding, but why do they so often have to take a shit on us to do it?
posted by supercrayon at 3:49 PM on May 5, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by supercrayon at 3:49 PM on May 5, 2016 [18 favorites]
old men are culturally in a weird place once work ends
Around here, at least, they join the local Mens Shed, where as far as I can tell they hang out with other older guys, cracking wheezy old guy jokes, growing tomatoes, fixing bicycles and teaching younger guys how to fix stuff.
posted by glitter at 4:18 PM on May 5, 2016
Around here, at least, they join the local Mens Shed, where as far as I can tell they hang out with other older guys, cracking wheezy old guy jokes, growing tomatoes, fixing bicycles and teaching younger guys how to fix stuff.
posted by glitter at 4:18 PM on May 5, 2016
"I'm stoked dudes are bonding, but why do they so often have to take a shit on us to do it?"
This, basically forever.
posted by XtinaS at 4:48 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
This, basically forever.
posted by XtinaS at 4:48 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Reading, discussion, bonding--yay! Doing it by explicitly rejecting any taint of the feminine? I get it, but it disappoints me. There are books by women that have a lot to say about redefining gender roles. Our liberations are entwined.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:56 PM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:56 PM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
The only time I've ever written a "letter to the editor" of any kind was in response to an article on Bookslut (RIP) that described a book as "a no-brainer for women's book groups because it's short, well-paced and full of ideas without seeming full of ideas."
That is, btw, one man describing a book written by another man.
The phrase, as I said, surprised and irked me because "I'm not really sure what the word women's is doing there, unless it's being used to imply that women prefer their books shorter, more readable, or somehow more easy-seeming than men. Now, I know you don't think that, and I'm quite sure that the writer of the piece doesn't think that, but that's how it sounds."
Jessa Crispin responded, delightfully: "Trust me, it irked me, too."
(also, apparently, this was in 2007 but I still have an extremely vivid memory of how grumpy I was after reading the article, and then how gleeful I was that she bothered to respond to me.)
posted by dizziest at 5:02 PM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
That is, btw, one man describing a book written by another man.
The phrase, as I said, surprised and irked me because "I'm not really sure what the word women's is doing there, unless it's being used to imply that women prefer their books shorter, more readable, or somehow more easy-seeming than men. Now, I know you don't think that, and I'm quite sure that the writer of the piece doesn't think that, but that's how it sounds."
Jessa Crispin responded, delightfully: "Trust me, it irked me, too."
(also, apparently, this was in 2007 but I still have an extremely vivid memory of how grumpy I was after reading the article, and then how gleeful I was that she bothered to respond to me.)
posted by dizziest at 5:02 PM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
(And may I take this opportunity to pitch for the one that I still belong to, because its focus is on a very specific niche of fiction, which has drawn a really cool mix of people and it has been going on for eight years and is awesome so if you are in NYC come check it out.)
My 12-year-old wishes he could be part of this group. He read Z for Zachariah and that was it: he was hooked on post-apocalyptic fiction.
posted by not that girl at 5:10 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
My 12-year-old wishes he could be part of this group. He read Z for Zachariah and that was it: he was hooked on post-apocalyptic fiction.
posted by not that girl at 5:10 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
> I'm stoked dudes are bonding, but why do they so often have to take a shit on us to do it?
Tell me about it.
posted by benito.strauss at 5:17 PM on May 5, 2016
Tell me about it.
posted by benito.strauss at 5:17 PM on May 5, 2016
I have to slightly defend the idea of men's book clubs. When my father was in the nursing home, I would bring in all my unwanted books as a donation. The recreation director appreciated it, especially, he said, because I brought in so many man-friendly books [It's true I favor Henning Mankell and George Pelicanos over mysteries where nuns or talking cats solve crimes]. He said the women played bingo, watched movies, went to sing-alongs, did arts and crafts, and ate cookies and ice cream at socials; the men stayed in their rooms and watched TV. And they read the books in their room. He was desperate for activities that would get the old men talking to each other. From my acquaintance with some of these guys, I would guess Civil War history books or WWII books might have gotten them out of their rooms.
posted by acrasis at 5:28 PM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by acrasis at 5:28 PM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the NY Times Style section is basically long-form trolling that puts 4chan kids with potty mouths to shame. They write pieces on kale that rile people up, they write pieces on "hipsters" that get people to debate what a hipster is and isn't and now they take what was probably a thirty-minute conversation about a book club and boil it down to one controversial out-of-context quote.
YHBT. HTH. HAND.
posted by GuyZero at 5:32 PM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
YHBT. HTH. HAND.
posted by GuyZero at 5:32 PM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
[So in summation, maybe I should instead get pissy at the reporter who wrote these clubs up with this specific angle? PERPETUATING STEREOTYPES etc.]
Yes. You literally have no idea what else was said in this interview. It's very biased writing that was likely done on purpose.
posted by GuyZero at 5:34 PM on May 5, 2016
Yes. You literally have no idea what else was said in this interview. It's very biased writing that was likely done on purpose.
posted by GuyZero at 5:34 PM on May 5, 2016
I feel sort-of bad for putting that link first, what I thought was hilarious was literary Twitter's punny, manly book club names, which also served as a fitting rejoinder to the annoying trend piece, which I thought I had to include to give context for the #ManlyBookClubNames. I maybe should have framed it differently to emphasize the humor and de-emphasize the reporter's talent for finding the two most irritating book clubs in America.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:44 PM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:44 PM on May 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Meh, it's fine, it's not like there's no humour about the situation. Maybe these really are the two worst book clubs in America. Manly book club names are funny. But maybe they're an otherwise pleasant group of guys that want to ready books by men about men. My point is: this is a Style Section piece, not exactly Watergate-level reporting here. There's no pretense to some absolute truth.
posted by GuyZero at 5:46 PM on May 5, 2016
posted by GuyZero at 5:46 PM on May 5, 2016
zarq: "What is the point of reading if you're going out of your way to avoid experiencing outside perspectives? Shaking up one's worldview is the best part."
While many of the behaviours of the featured clubs are deplorable is it really necessary to denigrate their choice of reading material. Is it not enough to let the good that the members enjoy the material stand without exclaiming they are doing it wrong like a bunch of neckbeards?
posted by Mitheral at 7:04 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
While many of the behaviours of the featured clubs are deplorable is it really necessary to denigrate their choice of reading material. Is it not enough to let the good that the members enjoy the material stand without exclaiming they are doing it wrong like a bunch of neckbeards?
posted by Mitheral at 7:04 PM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
But dash it! You don't read books in clubs! You tell STORIES in clubs! About "The MAN Who Would Not Shake Hands" or "The MAN with Copper Fingers" or "PickMAN's Model". Have you no sense of tradition, chaps?
posted by dannyboybell at 8:04 PM on May 5, 2016
posted by dannyboybell at 8:04 PM on May 5, 2016
> I have to slightly defend the idea of men's book clubs.
For true, you don't need to do it slightly! Because what you are defending is not what this thing seems to be. A group for/by men, reading books about men/things of interest to men? That sounds just dandy to me. But a group for men that seems to have parameters of "girls are icky, ewww, no girls because girls only write about chick lit stuff" does not sound like the kind of thing you think your dad would benefit from. So no need to defend at all, really.
posted by rtha at 8:57 PM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
For true, you don't need to do it slightly! Because what you are defending is not what this thing seems to be. A group for/by men, reading books about men/things of interest to men? That sounds just dandy to me. But a group for men that seems to have parameters of "girls are icky, ewww, no girls because girls only write about chick lit stuff" does not sound like the kind of thing you think your dad would benefit from. So no need to defend at all, really.
posted by rtha at 8:57 PM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's a Patton Oswalt routine where just as he's reaching a moment that tip-toes up to some heart-felt emotions a heckler interrupts him by screaming "Wooooo!". No insutlt, no comment, just "Woooo!". Patton rags on him a bit and finishes with "You truly don't fucking get it, do you? .... You're going to miss everything cool and die angry."
These no-woman-authors groups are never going to read Regeneration, by Pat Barker, and I can't stop thinking about that Patton Oswalt line.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:15 PM on May 5, 2016
These no-woman-authors groups are never going to read Regeneration, by Pat Barker, and I can't stop thinking about that Patton Oswalt line.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:15 PM on May 5, 2016
(And may I take this opportunity to pitch for the one that I still belong to, because its focus is on a very specific niche of fiction, which has drawn a really cool mix of people and it has been going on for eight years and is awesome so if you are in NYC come check it out.)
Finally a book club I would love to go to... and it turns out to be 3,000 miles away.
If I ever did join a book club (not something I'm at all opposed to, just not something I have tried), I have always assumed it would be coed. Why would I want to talk about books only with other men? And especially, why would I want to talk about books BY men FOR men WITH men? That is such a strangely reductive notion that I can't really relate. I would want to talk about interesting books with interesting people, and reducing the pool of both authors and readers just isn't going to get me there.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:16 PM on May 5, 2016
Finally a book club I would love to go to... and it turns out to be 3,000 miles away.
If I ever did join a book club (not something I'm at all opposed to, just not something I have tried), I have always assumed it would be coed. Why would I want to talk about books only with other men? And especially, why would I want to talk about books BY men FOR men WITH men? That is such a strangely reductive notion that I can't really relate. I would want to talk about interesting books with interesting people, and reducing the pool of both authors and readers just isn't going to get me there.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:16 PM on May 5, 2016
Mitheral: While many of the behaviours of the featured clubs are deplorable is it really necessary to denigrate their choice of reading material.
If they're deliberately not reading books by women, I don't think that's particularly praiseworthy. Would you be similarly leaping to their defense if they decided they only wanted to read books written by White men?
Is it not enough to let the good that the members enjoy the material stand without exclaiming they are doing it wrong like a bunch of neckbeards?
I don't think this is about social incompetence. I'm commenting on the fact that they're deliberately censoring their reading material to exclude outside viewpoints.
posted by zarq at 7:08 AM on May 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
If they're deliberately not reading books by women, I don't think that's particularly praiseworthy. Would you be similarly leaping to their defense if they decided they only wanted to read books written by White men?
Is it not enough to let the good that the members enjoy the material stand without exclaiming they are doing it wrong like a bunch of neckbeards?
I don't think this is about social incompetence. I'm commenting on the fact that they're deliberately censoring their reading material to exclude outside viewpoints.
posted by zarq at 7:08 AM on May 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Would you be similarly leaping to their defense if they decided they only wanted to read books written by White men?
I'm not exactly leaping to anyone's defense here—you can think that choosing to read only a small fraction of books produced by people just like you is myopic or purile, without thinking that it's actually morally dubious. If you accept that people want spaces to talk to and share the experiences of being with people just like them, then, yeah, given that they are otherwise harmless, myopia seems to be the only charge of which they might be guilty.
"What is the point of reading if you're going out of your way to avoid experiencing outside perspectives? Shaking up one's worldview is the best part."
And this is nobly stated, but I suspect it's something honored more in the breach by most people, even people commenting here. Absent students or a rare few, most people read for comfort or entertainment. Since the purpose of every book club I've encountered has been social, I imagine the number of them devoted to truly worldview-shaking books is pretty small.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:51 AM on May 6, 2016
I'm not exactly leaping to anyone's defense here—you can think that choosing to read only a small fraction of books produced by people just like you is myopic or purile, without thinking that it's actually morally dubious. If you accept that people want spaces to talk to and share the experiences of being with people just like them, then, yeah, given that they are otherwise harmless, myopia seems to be the only charge of which they might be guilty.
"What is the point of reading if you're going out of your way to avoid experiencing outside perspectives? Shaking up one's worldview is the best part."
And this is nobly stated, but I suspect it's something honored more in the breach by most people, even people commenting here. Absent students or a rare few, most people read for comfort or entertainment. Since the purpose of every book club I've encountered has been social, I imagine the number of them devoted to truly worldview-shaking books is pretty small.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:51 AM on May 6, 2016
My point is: this is a Style Section piece, not exactly Watergate-level reporting here.
This gets it exactly right. The whole story is the journalistic equivalent of stories about people wearing saggy pants or getting weird piercings or tattoos. It's "Hey, look at this tiny group of people who seem kinda off-beat and who knows they might even be kinda objectionable or threatening!"
posted by octobersurprise at 8:02 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
This gets it exactly right. The whole story is the journalistic equivalent of stories about people wearing saggy pants or getting weird piercings or tattoos. It's "Hey, look at this tiny group of people who seem kinda off-beat and who knows they might even be kinda objectionable or threatening!"
posted by octobersurprise at 8:02 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm commenting on the fact that they're deliberately censoring their reading material to exclude outside viewpoints.
And, lastly, just because I'm surprised to see you use the word "censoring" here. Don't be silly. That's no more an example of "censorship" than a mods decision that some topic doesn't belong here. It might or might not be intellectually beneficial to them to broaden their selection of books, but choosing not to do so isn't remotely "censorship."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:30 AM on May 6, 2016
And, lastly, just because I'm surprised to see you use the word "censoring" here. Don't be silly. That's no more an example of "censorship" than a mods decision that some topic doesn't belong here. It might or might not be intellectually beneficial to them to broaden their selection of books, but choosing not to do so isn't remotely "censorship."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:30 AM on May 6, 2016
And, lastly, just because I'm surprised to see you use the word "censoring" here. Don't be silly. That's no more an example of "censorship" than a mods decision that some topic doesn't belong here. It might or might not be intellectually beneficial to them to broaden their selection of books, but choosing not to do so isn't remotely "censorship."
True. Good point, thanks. That was a poor word choice on my part. My initial thought was to say they were "banning" those books but it seemed way too melodramatic so I went with the other. They're both not right.
In hindsight, I should have said something like, "....they're deliberately restricting their reading material to exclude outside viewpoints." Or that they were simply excluding books with outside views, etc.
posted by zarq at 9:01 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
True. Good point, thanks. That was a poor word choice on my part. My initial thought was to say they were "banning" those books but it seemed way too melodramatic so I went with the other. They're both not right.
In hindsight, I should have said something like, "....they're deliberately restricting their reading material to exclude outside viewpoints." Or that they were simply excluding books with outside views, etc.
posted by zarq at 9:01 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Although, really, they're not restricting their reading material to "exclude outside viewpoints." They're expressly refusing to consider books written by or about people who happen to have vaginas, out of an apparent fear of what people who happen to have vaginas might have to say.
It's one thing to say "I don't want to read war books" or "Westerns" or "sci-fi" or whatever. But excluding all books by women has nothing to do with the content of those books.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 10:48 AM on May 6, 2016
It's one thing to say "I don't want to read war books" or "Westerns" or "sci-fi" or whatever. But excluding all books by women has nothing to do with the content of those books.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 10:48 AM on May 6, 2016
They're expressly refusing to consider books written by or about people who happen to have vaginas, out of an apparent fear of what people who happen to have vaginas might have to say.
To be fair, I imagine they're not all that open to reading books by trans women either. (It's a shame; Evolution's Rainbow is a great read.) I don't think it's the vagina they're objecting to so much as the perceived inferiority of a woman's mind, which I think we can all agree is even more insulting.
posted by sciatrix at 11:13 AM on May 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
To be fair, I imagine they're not all that open to reading books by trans women either. (It's a shame; Evolution's Rainbow is a great read.) I don't think it's the vagina they're objecting to so much as the perceived inferiority of a woman's mind, which I think we can all agree is even more insulting.
posted by sciatrix at 11:13 AM on May 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think the annoying thing about the no girls allowed rule is that that is sort of how it's always been. Books written by, about, and for primarily female audiences have been dismissed, diminished, and pinkwashed pretty much forever, and it's really really bad for everyone, including for men. A lot of men have strange, foreign, childish perspectives on women, largely due to lifelong cootie avoidance and to having their demographics normalized as the default protagonists in fiction and real life.
It's just weird that they feel like it's super-important to explore the heteronormative male perspective to the exclusion of everything else. It's not like insight into how he-men's psyches is some great underexplored literary genre.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:36 AM on May 6, 2016
It's just weird that they feel like it's super-important to explore the heteronormative male perspective to the exclusion of everything else. It's not like insight into how he-men's psyches is some great underexplored literary genre.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:36 AM on May 6, 2016
You're absolutely right -- thanks for the correction.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:38 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:38 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by xingcat at 8:13 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]