April 23, 2002

5:45 PM

Is this Israel's Rodney King video? Warning: graphic depiction of an execution. Mahmoud Salah was subdued, stripped and then executed by Israeli soldiers who must have not realized they were being taped. Also reported here. This article makes the assertion that the regular police opposed the killing and Special Forces committed this act.
posted by n9 (99 comments total)

I know, I know, another post about the Middle East. I know. I thought it was an important story.
posted by n9 at 5:46 PM on April 23, 2002

There would appear zero continuity between the first three and second three pics. And, adbusters?
posted by ParisParamus at 5:50 PM on April 23, 2002

a bbc article about this.
posted by kickingtheground at 5:57 PM on April 23, 2002

The only discontinuity that I can see is that the Jeep/RangeRover moved, the other two cars are in the same place. The larger images in the other two links ought to make this clearer.
posted by n9 at 5:58 PM on April 23, 2002

Worst case scenario: he lived 1/2 hour longer than he should have.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:01 PM on April 23, 2002

You're advocating summary executions now Paris?
posted by skallas at 6:07 PM on April 23, 2002

AND THUS IT BEGINS!!!
posted by solistrato at 6:09 PM on April 23, 2002

Actually, not: summary would have been to shoot him while still "armed." It's just that my energies are limited, and I'll save my pursuit of injustice for some other cause.

But somehow, I suspect the 30 minute delay is a fiction. But I'm open to being proven wrong.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:10 PM on April 23, 2002

i'm really getting tired of this shit. the media regale us day after day with pictures of dead palestinians and flattened refugee camps covering mass graves, but what of the flattened towers covering the squashed entrails of 3000 new yorkers in the dust. excuse me, but fuck the suicide bombing assholes.
posted by quonsar at 6:22 PM on April 23, 2002

Though Paris sounds harsh, if this person was indeed a suicide bomber he got half his wish - just did not take out any innocents with him.
posted by scottfree at 6:24 PM on April 23, 2002

Hey quonsar, wrong country, wrong people, and wrong cause. Equating palestinian bombers with 9/11 is a great attempt at non-think. You sound a lot like those people who think Walker Lindh killed Johnny "Mike" Spann, and if he didn't who cares - he's one of *them* he might as well be found guilty.
posted by skallas at 6:32 PM on April 23, 2002

quonsar: you're absolutely right: one terrible, cruel, nightmarish killing justifies another terrible, cruel, nightmarish killing. Which justifies the next one. And so on.

That's how the Israelis and Palistinians got into this mess in the first place. Looks like we're headed down the same road.
posted by ook at 6:35 PM on April 23, 2002

I am not harsh!
posted by ParisParamus at 6:36 PM on April 23, 2002

Well, my turn. First: I have seen cam shots of "wounded" Arabs jumping out of the ambulances they were in. I am suspicious of any photographs that are issued by either side. Either.
Why strip the guy? looking for something? could be bombs?
The robot brought in after?how do we know this.Confirmed by activists? Who and were are they ?
The source would be more believable if it were from the Israeli army rather than the PLO. Finally, and I hate to say this, but isn't this Brigade the group that so proudly boasts every time they have a suicide bomber kill kids and women in pizza places and malls? Gosh. He must have been not a bad guy. Admusters? I didn't know they did this sort of thing too.
posted by Postroad at 6:36 PM on April 23, 2002

I'm still waiting for the name of hundreds of documents civilians massacred by the IDF. I think its all a big crock of elimnated hummus.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:38 PM on April 23, 2002

How about when Palestinian gunmen summarily execute their own people? Seems like they have no problem with trial-free executions.
posted by evanizer at 6:41 PM on April 23, 2002

From the link: Activists in Israel have confirmed that these images are real.

In related news, Majority Whip Tom DeLay has recently confirmed that Bush actually won the 2000 presidential election.
posted by gd779 at 6:42 PM on April 23, 2002

...andthis: the photo that started it all because of mixups, faked photos, shabby reporting etc. this one blogger began to srat trying to clarify issues that he felt distorted
posted by Postroad at 6:44 PM on April 23, 2002

Equating palestinian bombers with 9/11 is a great attempt at non-think.

Guess, again, Skallas. The plight of the Palestinians was one of the many reasons Osama bin Laden cited for the 9/11 attacks. That, along with the presence of American soilders in Saudi Arebia and the corruption among the Arab leadres were some of the reasons cited and continue to be the focus of the Islamists hatred of America/Israel.

And, by the way, did you perhaps forget the footage of the celebrating Palestinians after 9/11? For that reason alone, I absolutely second quonsar's sentiments: Fuck the suicide bombers!
posted by Rastafari at 6:44 PM on April 23, 2002

Is this Israel's Rodney King video?

It would have been much more convincing if it in fact had been a video, instead of a bunch of photos. Who's to say what happened between the times the pictures were taken? Just looking at the pictures I can't even tell that it's the same guy in all of them.
posted by epimorph at 6:55 PM on April 23, 2002

Rastafari, we all know you're belligerently anti-[need I elaborate?], but to equate Palestinians with 9/11 just because Osama opportunistically did so is dumber than dirt.
posted by donkeyschlong at 6:56 PM on April 23, 2002

It's not as dumb as dirt when Saudi Money was behind both. You people.....
posted by ParisParamus at 6:59 PM on April 23, 2002

I am not harsh!

Actually, yes, you are and you also appear to not understand the meaning of forgiveness or compromise. Get a grip. I'm sick of your harping on. How about having a little more interest in how to end this thing in a way both sides can live with, instead of more and more killing on either side?

Where I live we've had people like you ranting on for years and it's achieved sweet fuck all, except for more lives flushed down the toilet.

Sorry. Rant over.
posted by tomcosgrave at 7:02 PM on April 23, 2002

It would have been much more convincing if it in fact had been a video, instead of a bunch of photos

Hey, video is kind of pricey. Especially when you're spending all you're money on concealable bombs, and uncle Yasser can only get so much money from the EU...
posted by ParisParamus at 7:03 PM on April 23, 2002

I am not harsh!

Noooo, you're positively fluffy...
posted by inpHilltr8r at 7:04 PM on April 23, 2002

I'll save my pursuit of injustice for some other cause.

first i'll assume you mean your pursuit of justice, which is, at best, a questionable assumption.

justice: The quality of being just; fairness.

fair: Having or exhibiting a disposition that is free of favoritism or bias; impartial: a fair mediator.

selective justice cannot exist, the terms are exclusive. what you are calling for is execution without trial based on either information given by the group wanting to perform the execution, or certain characteristics i can only assume to be mostly racial. if you are willing to take at face value any rationale used by any force wanting to kill someone i cannot see how that policy would lead to anything but chaos. i will assume you are not in favor of any group killing whomever they want. if that is not the case, then you either believe the israeli special forces should be trusted with superjudicial powers, or you think all people that fit this man's characteristics should be killed.

most thinking people agree that military forces should not be given superjudicial powers as is seen in the 5th amendment of the US Constitution, Article 6 of the European Convention of Human rights, and article 10 and 11 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. i'm sure everyone has read most of these documents before, but apparently rereading wouldn't hurt. i think now we need to honor the ideals that make our civilization good, and not sink into hate, fear, and violence. comparisons to other people who have trial-free executions are irrelevant, if one person does something unethical, does it then become ethical? defending one groups unethical actions by bringing up another's instead of comparing the actions to our collective standards will only lead us to more unethical action.
posted by rhyax at 7:05 PM on April 23, 2002

Actually, yes, you are and you also appear to not understand the meaning of forgiveness or compromise.

What? If I didn't believe in those things, I wouldn't advocate that Israel abandon almost all of its settlements. If I didn't the PA would have to wait 100 years before the idea of a Palestinian state would even be discussable.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:06 PM on April 23, 2002

ook: the press attempts to incite sympathy in me for the horrors visited upon those people who have been visiting horror on the world for decades. and please everybody, save the innocent bystander claptrap: i've seen too many pictures of gun-toting 8 year olds to beleive any fairy tales about collateral civilian casualties.
posted by quonsar at 7:07 PM on April 23, 2002

what you are calling for is execution without trial based on either information given by the group wanting to perform the execution, or certain characteristics i can only assume to be mostly racial.

No, I'm simply willing to treat warriors as warriors. When you kill someone in a war, there's no due process problem. Case closed.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:08 PM on April 23, 2002

shot 8-9 times in the head-took 45 minutes to die? maybe with a .22 0r .25 but come on. the guy had his boots on...? The 2nd and 3rd photo shows him crouched (looks like his hiding something) then #4 shows him being stripped, but no head shot, i mean no view of the guys head. (though more visible in the 3rd link 'article') Seems the way the guy is crouched, hes trying too conceal, protect or control something and it looks like he ain't givin it up. Usually people go down "spread eagle" when being searched. This seems real fishy but it could be true. The witness who claimed "he saw no blackbelt" probably did not, look at the way the guy is crouched.... Why not send a fake bomber into an area, put a hidden camera on him and start a show, curse, piss off the solders, chances are, they would kill.(crazy idea) Are these the only photos? Pic 3 shows the big feller in the white shirt standing. he is also detaining someone (a total of three now) this is shown in the 3rd link in n9s' post.
posted by clavdivs at 7:10 PM on April 23, 2002

Snopes chimes in on the situation.

Also I can't seem to find all eleven photos in the series on one site... some of the above linked have mostly the same photos but a few different ones... I don't see why they can't show us the entire set, you know, all the proof.
posted by Keen at 7:11 PM on April 23, 2002

Paris, I'm amazed and somewhat impressed with your ability to recontextualize every single little horror. I don't doubt that your grasp of the middle east situation is considerably stronger than most people, but that having been said, I'm struck by your dettachment from the situation.

Furthermore, hummus is delicious. You cannot expect people to ignore the human element in this event - and so however justified or insignificant this may be in the larger picture, it is still no fun to watch someone die.

I'd be insulting you if I were to remind you that you're entitled to your own opinion, all the same, I cannot fathom how you can take this chance to remind us all of the truth of the matter. I'd really like to see you just once say "good god that was absolutely horrible, and cultural affiliations aside, there is no way that this sort of thing is the answer, since death is something which we as humans cannot fathom, since it is such an ultimate penalty etc." You can copy and paste if you like.




FREE KEVIN!!
posted by Settle at 7:14 PM on April 23, 2002

Had I stock in the value of human life, I'd be selling it right about now.

At a loss.
posted by Opus Dark at 7:17 PM on April 23, 2002

you're right quonsar, i have maybe even seen 50 gun toting children* i guess all 8 year old kids in palestine are terrorists, women too, i mean they started bombing recently. and once i see more than 5 people of any class doing something illegal i assume they are all doing that illegal activity.

* the fact that they were not all palestenian is irrelevant.
posted by rhyax at 7:17 PM on April 23, 2002

Is this Israel's Rodney King video?

No, for the simple reason that the Rodney King video got a ton of airplay while this has not and will not. It absolutely should though; regardless of who's side you're on, we have a right to see how our tax dollars are being used and/or abused.
posted by homunculus at 7:25 PM on April 23, 2002

well whatever. the news is one-sided. interesting how you're obsessed with making me out an inhuman monster because i noted it. fuck the suicide bombers. oh, and where is palestine, anyway?
posted by quonsar at 7:25 PM on April 23, 2002

good god that was absolutely horrible, and cultural affiliations aside, there is no way that this sort of thing is the answer

Copying, and pasting. Because it's true.
posted by ook at 7:29 PM on April 23, 2002

It continues to amaze me how people just seem to pick sides to shit on in this mess, like it's a sporting event. People are fucking dying. Everyone's losing.
posted by donkeyschlong at 7:29 PM on April 23, 2002

"good god that was absolutely horrible, and cultural affiliations aside, there is no way that this sort of thing is the answer, since death is something which we as humans cannot fathom, since it is such an ultimate penalty etc."

We're way beyond that. The death of innocents is tragic, but the Palestinians have, in substantial part, brought it upon themselves. They annointed, and retain Yasser and the even more radical groups. On the other hand, Israel, a fairly human, civilized place (even for the Arabs living there), is fighting for its survival against, essentially, barbarians. The issue isn't that death--anyone's--is horrible. The issue is coming to the defense of Israel as it is pummeled daily by clueless journalists; econowhore Europeans who want Arab oil money; and millions of impoverished and/or uneducated Muslims who, unable to face their economic and societal failures, blame their fate on Israel. Show me a hint of civilization amongst those who want to destroy Israel, and I'll dwell more on the horrors of hapless, bystander Palestinian Arabs.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:29 PM on April 23, 2002

I watched the film Promises and wept at the humanity of the children on both sides. I don't think that it is possible to prove the worth of these lives to you, Paris. You don't seem want to view many of these people as human beings, so we are never going to be able to see these situations the same way.
posted by n9 at 7:38 PM on April 23, 2002

I just don't care who brought it on who, at this point. Nobody can lay claim to any higher moral justification for their actions, at this point, than "well, he started it" -- and both sides claim that one, so it doesn't get us anywhere either.

Not that acknowledging this fact would stop any more killing. But maybe it could help a few bystanders to get off their damn high horses. On *both* sides, please.
posted by ook at 7:40 PM on April 23, 2002

Show me a hint of civilization amongst those who want to destroy Israel, and I'll dwell more on the horrors of hapless, bystander Palestinian Arabs.

That makes no sense. Should I have to supply a huggable Klan member to make a case for the average American?
posted by skyline at 7:45 PM on April 23, 2002

Boy, I'm sure glad Metafilter's back up. I was really, really wondering what sort of enlightened, unbiased commentary ParisParamis had to contribute to today's discussion of the tragedy in the Middle East.
posted by Optamystic at 7:46 PM on April 23, 2002

I watched the film Promises and wept at the humanity of the children on both sides. I don't think that it is possible to prove the worth of these lives to you, Paris.

Nothing I have written suggests a lack of valuing anyone's life. On the other hand, the refusal of so many to see Israel's right to neutralize those who, so obviously, seek to kill Israelis suggests a gross indifference to the value of Israeli lives. The real problem is that Israel was, for months and months, too wimpy. Now, however, things seem to have changed. The result will be less dead Palestinians as well as Israelis (remember: dozens of Palestinan Arabs have been killed by Palestinian Arabs as "collaborators." On the other hand, Adam Shapiro is still, very much, alive).
posted by ParisParamus at 7:49 PM on April 23, 2002

Should I have to supply a huggable Klan member to make a case for the average American?

No, but that's because, by a factor of 1000 or 10,000, the a-holes who seek to shoot or bomb their way to a Palestine are more representative of Palestinian Arabs than the few remaining Klansmen are of the United States.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:52 PM on April 23, 2002

Adam Shapiro got his share of death threats, Paris.
posted by donkeyschlong at 7:55 PM on April 23, 2002

I know, I know, another post about the Middle East. I know. I thought it was an important story.

no, it wasn't.

same shit, different day. Welcome back from the MeFi blackout.


Here we go again.
posted by lampshade at 7:56 PM on April 23, 2002

Hrm, according to the snopes site, it is a serise of photos. without timestamps.

Anyway, both the israeli and palistinian stories are totaly consistant with the images.

So who knows.
posted by delmoi at 7:58 PM on April 23, 2002

The construct of the 'people' as in the 'palistinian people' is a rather impersonal simplification of matters (in this case). But you're right.

Personally, I'd complain more about the European/American side of the issue, simply because as an American, that's how it affects me. The ignorance and self interest in the issue disgusts me. However, all criticism and distant evaluation of cultural groups is useless to me, even if it is accurate. That Israel is dealing with barbarians means nothing to me personally - it seems like an easy way of characterizing what in my mind is the actions of individuals - a great many individuals, perhaps a great many with a great deal in common, but individuals none the less. No solution to the I/P problem will be found in anything other than the concerns of individuals, which are varied, and for which one allows some forgiveness, and from which one can draw conclusions that differ from the most obvious.

I cannot accept that a group of people brings something upon themselves. That is not how human beings act in groups. Groups of people believe they are right, because they are in a group. Their interests are holy to them because they believe they cannot be accused of selfishness, simply due to their numbers. So when shit happens, and when the groups make mistakes, they don't step back and say, wow guys, gee, look what we brought upon ourselves. They are angered and offended. And I think we all know how this individual reaction translates to a group reaction.

This characterization applies even more so to groups which are small and angry. So when you say that the Palestinians brought this upon themselves, you in a sense deny humanity to the Palestinians, and although it is somewhat less relevant, you deny any nation or culture humanity when you personify their actions, holding each and every person who falls within your definitions of a group personally accountable for behavior that can only exist in a group, indeed, behavior that is unique to groups.

Donkeyschlong is right - this is not a sporting event. Everybody is losing, and our current mode of thinking is clearly not providing the answers we are convinced it must. Don't waste your time on me - I present to you the most uncivilized Palestinian Arab and I challenge you to convince him he is wrong. You get a gold star if you have the Moxie to do it over IRC.
posted by Settle at 7:58 PM on April 23, 2002

"Show me a hint of civilization amongst those who want to destroy Israel, and I'll dwell more on the horrors of hapless, bystander Palestinian Arabs." Paris, it is beyond "showing you", you will have to seek that out for yourself. i talked to a man who survived the warsaw ghetto at the holocaust museum in Michigan, he was a kid then, sneaking food into the ghetto. When our history class was filing out to our cars (all wide-eyed), i lingered behind in thier library. My friend found me weeping on the floor, inchoate. you see Paris, my great grandfather sold Fords, alot of them, even met the old man. So I'm giving you a glimpe into my family history concerning views towards Jewish people. (they are good people, just dont trade with them, was my great grandfathers secret credo) I related this to a one time girlfriend whom is Israeli. She said "what?, your looking for forgiveness, for what?"((Zah-sheb Serit:)) She was anti-arab and shrugged when I rushed up to her work place to tell her Rabin was killed. SO...why am i o.k. but an arab not?... The only bad thing about love is its selectable nature.
posted by clavdivs at 8:09 PM on April 23, 2002

Sweet Jesus, I normally don't read I/P threads, never realized how everyone goads you on, Paris. I think you are preaching to the out-of-earshot here, Mr. P. I hope it doesn't seem I'm going after you.

TV PARTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111
posted by Settle at 8:10 PM on April 23, 2002

Opus, I'll take... Bickering Inc., 10,000 shares at 2 cents.
posted by clavdivs at 8:16 PM on April 23, 2002

You're down, clavdivs. Unlimited growth potential. Specifically, their Oroborous division...
posted by Opus Dark at 8:19 PM on April 23, 2002

Show me a hint of civilization amongst those who want to destroy Israel, and I'll dwell more on the horrors of hapless, bystander Palestinian Arabs.

I was really, really wondering what sort of enlightened, unbiased commentary ParisParamis had to contribute to today's discussion of the tragedy in the Middle East.

I think hate speech might be a more appropriate term.
posted by rhyax at 8:24 PM on April 23, 2002

Settle's in Providence! I didn't think anyone was in Providence!

*penny on the tracks*
posted by solistrato at 8:32 PM on April 23, 2002

two groups of people fighting over a pile of dirt? let it happen.

but then again, i put bugs in jars to see whom eats who.

too bad their innocent people involved. :/
posted by jcterminal at 8:50 PM on April 23, 2002

Amother example that war is hell and I am sick of it. I'm tired of people killing other people and then using it as an excuse to kill more people. Finger pointing and name calling is wrong and that's what I was taught in kindergarten. Killing someone because they killed someone else does not solve anything it only gives someone else a reason to kill. Anger and hatred lead to more. Judiasm and Islam teaches that it is wrong to kill and some men have decided that it is only wrong to kill sometimes.
posted by MaddCutty at 9:14 PM on April 23, 2002

posted by y2karl at 9:17 PM on April 23, 2002

12 of 56 posts by ParisParamus so far is the discussion better for his participation. I believe he has every right to post all he wants, but that the discussion is less for his participation. I find the photos disturbing, but not suprising. The words of war are those of dehumanizing ones opponents. The world can be a horrible place and this is the poster child.
posted by onegoodmove at 9:19 PM on April 23, 2002

A plague on both their houses. Push the Israelis into the sea, but start pushing behind the Arab lines.

Then the whole area can be a resort for wealthy educated retired British couples, the way God explained in the real book.
posted by crunchburger at 9:19 PM on April 23, 2002

Of course, madcutty is quite right.

The result will be less dead Palestinians as well as Israelis.

Oh yeah. Violence is such a good deterrent of violence.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 9:37 PM on April 23, 2002

ParisParamus,

I've read your comments in almost every single Middle East thread so far, although I'm sure I've missed some. When someone proposed the voluntary moratorium, I automatically thought of you and was thrilled to see you agree that it was a good idea.

Then the plan was discounted. And I still wished you would stop posting on the topic, hoped you would honor the voluntary moratorium you had supported and thought of suggesting it to you. But I realized that you feel a need to post as a means of defending what you consider to be an embattled position.

I have always supported Israel, often times almost blindly, as many Americans have for decades. Very little has changed that, but I'm now saddened to say that despite having numerous reasons to support Israel, reading your knee-jerk responses over time has made me significantly less supportive.

I learn a great deal from this forum, much of it from smart people given an opportunity to speak freely and openly, to listen to and respond intelligently to other smart peoples' opinions. And I find nothing more difficult to observe or follow than a smart zealot who is clearly unable - or at least unwilling - to discern alternate interpretations of events. Sadly, that is how you appear.

I say this with great sadness because while I don't doubt your faith or dedication, I thought you might want to know that at least for me, your aim of educating your MeFi cohorts, defending Israel and gaining supporters for her has not only failed, but is now having the reverse effect.
posted by Sinner at 9:38 PM on April 23, 2002

"An accountant, Abedramo Alkulli, called for continued suicide bombings. "We must have more in order for Sharon to understand his operation was a failure," Mr. Alkulli said, referring to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon." from RJ Reynolds' above link.

How can anyone sympathise with people who call for more suicide bombings?
posted by Zool at 9:53 PM on April 23, 2002

Well, I don't necessarily sympathize with "an accountant, Abedramo Alkulli," but I certainly sympathize with all the men, boys, women, girls who are just trying to make a go of it and are getting bulldozed and suicide bombed into oblivion. Israeli and Palestinian alike.
posted by donkeyschlong at 9:59 PM on April 23, 2002

Alas, 63% of Palestinians supported "suicide bombings against Israeli civilians" in a recent poll by a peace group {see Q.13}. Also, 55% of Palestinians think Arafat is in control at least to some degree, reversing what many Palestinian-supporters in the West believe.

Palestinians are so wedded to the suicide bombing tactic that Israeli troops have forced them to invent a new international symbol of surrender {another}.

Are they exaggerating their fears? Do they believe suicide bombers are everywhere, rather than only being a few fanatics? No: Palestinian tactics in Jenin have ranged from booby-traps to sucker games including false surrenders, civilians used as human shields, spotters, or bait, and assassination of medical teams. Propaganda? No. These are Arabs speaking to other Arabs, in Egypt's largest daily newspaper, freely admitting to war crimes. War crimes, apparently, that the UN will never feel the need to gin up a fact-finding team to investigate -- but that double standard is something we're getting used to.

The credulous reporting of indymedia is also telling. Suicide bombing OK; killing suicide bombers before they blow up, not OK. Maybe that's not their intent, but then, they don't appear to have thought this through very deeply at all.
posted by dhartung at 10:55 PM on April 23, 2002

You sound a lot like those people who think Walker Lindh killed Johnny "Mike" Spann, and if he didn't who cares - he's one of *them* he might as well be found guilty.

It's WW2, and there's a Nazi soldier while you're an Allied soldier. Do you put a bullet between his eyes or wait to find out if he personally killed any Allies?
posted by owillis at 10:56 PM on April 23, 2002

Although I completely disagree with Paris, I actually read most of his comments. I feel he is deprived of any ability to look at this matter in an object manner and this may not be any of his fault. But I find his posts very enlightening as to understanding the mentality of the parties involved in the middle east conflict. In the words of Graham Fuller, Its The Occupation, Stupid.

As long as the photos are concerned, I only see one IDF personel holding the Palestinian down. The supposed bomb was wrapped around his waist and the button was on the abdomen area. It would have been very easy for him to just blow himself up right there and then rather than wait to be shot dead. I dont see his both hands being tied behind his back.

And if he had blown up with IDF personel around him, I would have supported him because it would have been for a just cause. Better here than in a pizza place.
posted by adnanbwp at 11:04 PM on April 23, 2002

How would people feel about Palestinians dropping bombs from F-16's on Israeli civilian targets? Is part of the reason suicide bombing is so abhorrant (to myself as well) because of the level of madness and personal sacrifice needed to carry out the act?

Are Palestinians "so wedded to suicide tactics" as dhartung so breathlessly puts it, because of they are somehow less-than-human? Or is it because they have found a tactic that they can afford and actually works? Are war crimes in defense against an occupying power invading your home as bad as war crimes by an occupying power?

Even ParisParamus believes the settlements should go, and the occupation should be ended. But does he do anything about it? Does he pressure his leaders in the US to take a stand against them? Do any but the most extreme peace activist Israelis do a thing to try to end the occupation? Does Palestinian suffering exist, as Paul Wofowicz attests, or is it 'propaganda' dreamed up by fanatics who live only to kill Jews?

Does terrorism, when the cause is just, work? How did Israel get its state? What were Begin and Sharon before they were PMs of a state? Does violence solve problems, or just some people's problems?
posted by chaz at 11:47 PM on April 23, 2002

To make things clear, I have never lived in Israel. I am not Jewish. I don't have a personal stake in the current crisis. I do not even know enough about this situation to make an even fairly-intelligible breakdown of the current situation.

Nor have I had an aquaintance die in a suicide bombing or felt much personal pain from this situation thousands of miles away.

I'm not going to pretend to think that what was done was right, but this is a wartime situation. Decisions are made. Mostly rash, rarely fair. I'm not currently nor ever have been in that situation. Still, I can imagine the anger that drove this act. It's certainly not uncommon. The fight-or-flee mentality breeds this. Ask your relatives who were frontline participants in WWII. It's just war. Survival instincts and revenge run high. I really don't think we can judge between right and wrong unless we were in the exact same situation. My suspicion is that if these soldiers, mostly kids, would do it, so would the rest of us when put in the exact same situation. It's quite easy to be a critic from a distance where the damage is so minor.
posted by ttrendel at 11:51 PM on April 23, 2002

Not to stray from the path of conversation but...

Last time I saw Arafat on TV he wasn't looking so healthy - he looked pale and he was visibly shaking. If I'm not mistaken he's at least 72 years old. I can't imagine the chaos that would ensue if he passed away while "confined" by the Israelis.

SCARY!
posted by LoraT at 11:57 PM on April 23, 2002

owillis: It's WW2, and there's a Nazi soldier while you're an Allied soldier. Do you put a bullet between his eyes or wait to find out if he personally killed any Allies?

I hate to say you've postulated a ridiculous argument, but that's a ridiculous argument. You might as well have said, "Kill 'em all. Let God sort 'em out!" Not only that, your analogy is off.

It's one thing for an designated (and by designated, I mean armed and dressed as such) soldier to meet another designated soldier of an opposing force, but something completely different when a designated soldier comes across people who might be soldiers or might be civilians, but can't tell because they aren't designated as such. You seem to be advocating just shooting first and asking questions later.

Let's say you're white woman in an elevator in New York and a black man gets on. Do you eye him suspiciously and cling to your purse tighter because he may be a thief, or wait till he steals your purse and then run after him.

Does that ring close to home?
posted by mikhail at 12:00 AM on April 24, 2002

I'd like to invite everyone to think of a virtually identical conflict when considering this one:

South Africa was a colonial-settler state established by Europeans in the midst of a long established "native" population. Its guiding philisophy defined citizenship as being available to only a specific, racially based group--at the exclusion of the pre-existing community, who were robbed of their land, their heritage, and their most basic rights after they resisted the newcomers. Apartheid's opponents engaged in terrorism--a horrible unfair random violence, but the only way for a crushed people to oppose their oppression. The neighboring states that shared ethnic and cultural ties gave supported them in their struggle.

The only real difference is, in South Africa most of the international community saw where the problem was.

When you think of the Palestinians, think of the blacks of South Africa facing apartheid. Think of native Americans facing the relentless onslaught of Europeans. Think of how the situation turned out for them.

Are many Palestinians in support of terrorism? Of course they are. But mostly, they are interested in justice for their situation. Most would be happy to just have normal rights that we in the west expect.

What would YOU think if you were Palestinian? How would you behave? Do you have the ability to walk in someone else's shoes?
posted by noodler at 12:21 AM on April 24, 2002

I nominate you for Troll of the Week, mikhail. Everyone knows that whites and blacks are constantly at war, especially against the backdrop of the apocalyptic hellscape that is NYC.
posted by ttrendel at 12:31 AM on April 24, 2002

mikhail:

Perhaps if there were entire organized cells of black people bent on eradicating all the white people your silly race-based ("hey, he's black - let's make the whole argument about his skin color!") analogy would make some sort of sense. But last time I checked that's not the case. Or at least I didn't get the memo.

Did they start the revolution and forget to tell me again? Oops, I've said too much.

I'm not advocating either side, I think the Palestinians have legitimate gripes but also have endorsed people who have no qualms about killing innocents. I also think the Israelis have a right to self-defense, but a moral obligation to not blindly strike out at all Palestinians.
posted by owillis at 12:42 AM on April 24, 2002

YOU WILL ALL PERISH IN THE WAR OVER THE GREEN PLANET. I WILL TAKE YOUR PLACE, INSTALLING RECIEVERS INTO YOUR VERY MINDS. I HOPE YOU LIKE LISTENING TO GARY NUMAN.
posted by Settle at 1:10 AM on April 24, 2002

Thanks for plagiarizing me!
posted by ParisParamus at 1:46 AM on April 24, 2002

who is rodney king
posted by johnnyboy at 1:49 AM on April 24, 2002

Well, if it is, then let's forget altogether about an Arab Palestinian state. If it is, it's obvious that Palestinian Arabs would have a much higher quality of life living in Israel.

No, actually, the premise of a PA and a Palestinian state is predicated upon a collective notion. You can't have it both ways.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:49 AM on April 24, 2002

the construct of the 'people' as in the 'palistinian people' is a rather impersonal simplification of matters (in this case).

Well, if it is, then let's forget altogether about an Arab Palestinian state. If it is, it's obvious that Palestinian Arabs would have a much higher quality of life living in Israel.

No, actually, the premise of a PA and a Palestinian state is predicated upon a collective notion. You can't have it both ways.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:50 AM on April 24, 2002

I can't imagine the chaos that would ensue if he passed away while "confined" by the Israelis.

After a few days, it would be an improvement. As it is, then entire Arab world blames its problems on Israel, so how could it be worse? Moreover, however he dies, Israel will be blamed. So lets get it over with, already!
posted by ParisParamus at 1:57 AM on April 24, 2002

Guess the situations not like South Africa afterall. Berkeley: ick.
posted by ParisParamus at 2:06 AM on April 24, 2002

Paris: The death of innocents is tragic, but the Palestinians have, in substantial part, brought it upon themselves. They annointed, and retain Yasser and the even more radical groups.

As we, here in America retain who? With this justification it's no wonder the world chomps at the bit for war. Not, mind you, that we, as the world's denizens, have personal qualms with anybody, anything! The saturation of propaganda has just simply been effective. A+ for getting us all to take sides. When the only fliggin floggin side one ordinary soul be on is that of the human condition. Which is, actively, publically not taking sides, even though we're admonished that we all must. We'll all die violently should it come to it. Fuck those who can make it so.

In a moment of emergency we Americans rallied (albeit briefly) by BushII. In the continual state of emergency that seems to consume Israel and Palestine (from my comfortable Seattle apartment) why shouldn't they do the same? If it is, that they felt anything at all close to how I felt September 11th 2001. But you see Paris, I'm in fucking Seattle, not New York. Yet, I still felt scared, feel scared. I'm also human, much like your average Israeli/Palestinian. Luckily I live thousands of miles away where terrorism occured in my country. If only they could be so lucky.
posted by crasspastor at 2:25 AM on April 24, 2002

In a moment of emergency...why shouldn't they do the same?

Actually, I'll go even futher. Yes, Stalin helped win WWII, but thereafter, the US "still had the Cold War.
And even if the Soviet people rallied around Stalin and subsequent Soviet leaders, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have sought to overthrough the Soviet Union.

I've never suggested there aren't innocent, very decent Palestinian Arabs. What I have said is that they aren't in control, not with Arafat, and not with the even worse "leaders." And those with the guns and bombs need to be opposed and destroyed, even if some of the innocent, very decent Palestinian Arabs suffer in the process.

Even if you don't have faith in Israel's ability to act in good faith, you can probably have faith in the ability of the world to exert pressure, real pressure on Israel, should it act in an inappropriate way (as opposed to the fake, pseudo-pressure being exerted on it by the Europeans--they'll never do anything; they're just trying to appease their Arab customers; they really don't care).

At this point, there is such an ensemble of depraved "leaders" amongst the Palestinians, that if I were a Palestinan living in the territories or Gaza, I would trust Israel more than my own "leaders" to improve my lot (or said another way, nothing good can come from the present thug/terrorist leadership). It's as much in Israel's interest to establish a viable Palestinian state, you know.
posted by ParisParamus at 2:55 AM on April 24, 2002

Take off your blinders Paris. And quit taking sides. You have as much to do with the leadership of Israel as you do Palestinian influentialism amongst their own. We're all down here on Earth and your raucous side-taking does nothing to ameliorate.
posted by crasspastor at 3:29 AM on April 24, 2002

owillis:

I would not shoot an axis soldure with his hands behind his back laying on the ground, no.

There is a better 'black/white' example to be made. Suppose you were a white cop and you come across a black man walking around or whatever. Should you make sure he dosn't actualy have a gun before you shoot him?

As you should know, lots of innocent black people get shot by stupid, racist cops.

----

Assuming that any Arab man walking around is a terrorist is no diffrent then the situation above, except it happens far more often.

Paris: If the isralis were acting in good faith, the settlements would have been gone long ago. Why are they still there anyway? What military purpose do they serve?
posted by delmoi at 3:49 AM on April 24, 2002

i *like* numan.

i vote settle for world conquerer.
posted by jcterminal at 4:44 AM on April 24, 2002

Israel blocks UN mission to Jenin

'Hours after a chorus of Israeli officials, including the foreign minister, Shimon Peres, said Israel had nothing to hide, the prime minister, Ariel Sharon, decided the team, announced just 24 hours earlier by the UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, was no longer acceptable.'

The fact that all journalists were refused entry to Jenin, during and directly after the conflict, is certainly not a good sign. I think that given the pressure, danger, death of fellow soliders etc. that it is quite possible that some Israeli soliders did loose the plot for a while and go on a bit of a killing spree. I wonder if we'll ever find out what really happened?
posted by RobertLoch at 6:03 AM on April 24, 2002

donkeyschlong nails it:

Everyone's losing.

The problem with this case is that it really is inconclusive. We don't know what happened exactly, making it hard to make it a touchstone in the same way that the Rodney King video was here in the states (and Los Angeles in particular).
posted by artlung at 7:32 AM on April 24, 2002

Ho Hum.......

This again ?
posted by a3matrix at 10:24 AM on April 24, 2002

ParisParamus says: " The Palestinians brought this on themselves"

The rapist says: "That woman brought it on herself because she wore a short skirt."

Yertle asks Paris out curiosity:

"Are you on the payroll of the Israeli government?"

What occurs in the photos is disturbing to most human beings who have any respect for life just as what the suicide bombers do is disturbing to most human beings.

What's at issue here though is this particular incident captured on film. I for one find it disgusting and I willingly take the side of the principle enshrined in my nation's laws:
"INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW".



What I can't believe Paris is your almost insatiable and vitriolic hatred for the Palestinians as evidenced by your callous rants for vicious violence above principles that have been proven to make our civilization function reasonably well.
posted by yertledaturtle at 11:04 AM on April 24, 2002

Paris, if you were a bot I'd fail you on the turing test. You are a totally deterministic finite state machine with a 100% predictable hard-coded agenda. My only question is this: have you ever found any dip-switches on your person that might be used for reconfiguration?
posted by n9 at 12:08 PM on April 24, 2002

ttrendel: I nominate you for Troll of the Week, mikhail.

Really? Well perhaps you didn't know my comment was related to owillis' comment here. Perhaps owillis doesn't remember it either.

My point was that owillis' comment in this dicussion comes off as stereotyping, profiling, and racist. The fact that he would condone shooting all Palestinians because you can't tell the civilians from the fanatic/soldiers is rather hypocritical. And basing it on some WWII situation in which he brings the Nazi's (just for effect right?) into it was just ridiculous.

And just for your own archive of info ttrendel, I am from that apocalyptic hellscape that is NYC.
posted by mikhail at 2:28 PM on April 24, 2002

"apocalyptic hellscape"???

You are a whining little baby with no conception of the reality of living conditions worldwide. Your concerns are trite, your opinions are worthless. If NYC is an apocalyptic hellscape, it is only because of your decision to live there.

I will not have your babies.
posted by Settle at 3:57 PM on April 24, 2002

"I am from that apocalyptic hellscape that is NYC." ???
posted by clavdivs at 6:24 PM on April 24, 2002

i like consistency.
posted by clavdivs at 6:27 PM on April 24, 2002

scroll up
posted by mikhail at 6:38 PM on April 24, 2002

Sorry Mik, I am sorry to have said that without checking my facts first.

ttrendel, NYC is a hell of a lot nicer than bloomington or even indianapolis - I've been to both. Everything I said about mik applies to you I suppose.
posted by Settle at 7:19 PM on April 24, 2002

"To me, the web consists of two things: MeFi and Porn.

I rubbed my penis damned-near raw.
posted by ttrendel at 12:53 AM PST on April 24"

This applies as well.
posted by Settle at 9:52 PM on April 24, 2002

My point was meant to be sarcastic, Settle. I personally love New York.
posted by ttrendel at 12:42 AM on May 4, 2002