Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?
March 18, 2021 5:50 PM Subscribe
...but if Trump did commit crimes of some sort, even if they're kind of, you know, sort of ordinary business crimes, if he did, it's important that there not be a culture of impunity in this country, that there needs to be a message sent that there are consequences, no matter how rich and important you are, if you break the law, and that that message is more important almost than anything else when it comes to protecting democracy.Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?
But read this and prepare to weep:
...So as you point out in the article, if he's found guilty, he could be sent to prison. That is a possibility. But you're right that a felony conviction wouldn't disqualify Trump from a second term. And I was frankly astonished to read that.
See also
Can Cyrus Vance, Jr., Nail Trump?
Please note: You will need to make an account using your email and a password of your choosing in order to RTFA. Which means the New Yorker can email you with ads. A small price to pay, imho.
a felony conviction wouldn't disqualify Trump from a second term.
It would if he's rotting in jail for at least the next five years.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:03 PM on March 18, 2021 [28 favorites]
It would if he's rotting in jail for at least the next five years.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:03 PM on March 18, 2021 [28 favorites]
And I doubt he'll make it to 2028.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:04 PM on March 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:04 PM on March 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
(I would like to ask people to avoid "he'll never face any consequences" comments, please; I think they add nothing to the conversation and are discouraging to those of us who take time to encourage our legislators to exercise oversight.)
I am acquainted with some fairly low information voters - the kind who try to keep up and consider it a civic duty to read the news, but who don't always get the best information, due to terrible decline of the press in the past few decades - who can be semi-sympathetic to some Republican talking points, but who seriously took notice when it came out that Trump paid $750 in taxes. "He paid Stormy Daniels more than he paid in taxes," one told me - that's the piece of information that stuck in their mind.
There are a LOT of American voters who are not tuned in to everything going on in DC, but who pick up occasional stories and have strong opinions about them. In my experience, those people are not happy about tax cheats and scammers.
The Republicans have been running on law and order for a long time. I'm sure there'll be a narrative of "it's a political hit job!" on any prosecutions, but as actual evidence hits the papers, there'll be some people - I think a large number of people - who'll be pretty disgusted by Trump's illegal dealings. I think it'll become politically risky for Republicans to keep shielding him and excusing him.
posted by kristi at 6:06 PM on March 18, 2021 [53 favorites]
I am acquainted with some fairly low information voters - the kind who try to keep up and consider it a civic duty to read the news, but who don't always get the best information, due to terrible decline of the press in the past few decades - who can be semi-sympathetic to some Republican talking points, but who seriously took notice when it came out that Trump paid $750 in taxes. "He paid Stormy Daniels more than he paid in taxes," one told me - that's the piece of information that stuck in their mind.
There are a LOT of American voters who are not tuned in to everything going on in DC, but who pick up occasional stories and have strong opinions about them. In my experience, those people are not happy about tax cheats and scammers.
The Republicans have been running on law and order for a long time. I'm sure there'll be a narrative of "it's a political hit job!" on any prosecutions, but as actual evidence hits the papers, there'll be some people - I think a large number of people - who'll be pretty disgusted by Trump's illegal dealings. I think it'll become politically risky for Republicans to keep shielding him and excusing him.
posted by kristi at 6:06 PM on March 18, 2021 [53 favorites]
Trump campaigning to MAGA movement supporters from the cafeteria of a prison would make an incredible reality tv series. It's the only way I'd give him my attention.
posted by firstdaffodils at 6:20 PM on March 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by firstdaffodils at 6:20 PM on March 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
Full New Yorker article on archive.org
Thank you so so much for that, aniola. I will try to remember to do that from now on.
posted by y2karl at 6:21 PM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
Thank you so so much for that, aniola. I will try to remember to do that from now on.
posted by y2karl at 6:21 PM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
Would have much preferred the article to have the title:
Can Donald Trump Avoid Getting Locked Up?
Can Donald Trump Escape Cyrus Vance, Jr.?
Because of Betteridge's Law of Headlines.
posted by otherchaz at 6:22 PM on March 18, 2021 [23 favorites]
Can Donald Trump Avoid Getting Locked Up?
Can Donald Trump Escape Cyrus Vance, Jr.?
Because of Betteridge's Law of Headlines.
posted by otherchaz at 6:22 PM on March 18, 2021 [23 favorites]
as actual evidence hits the papers
Sadly, I think it's gonna have to hit NetFlix to move the needle in America.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:26 PM on March 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
Sadly, I think it's gonna have to hit NetFlix to move the needle in America.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:26 PM on March 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
No worries, y2karl. There are probably people who prefer the subscribe method, too.
posted by aniola at 6:46 PM on March 18, 2021
posted by aniola at 6:46 PM on March 18, 2021
"..decisions for charges made within nine months-" wow!
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:03 PM on March 18, 2021
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:03 PM on March 18, 2021
It would if he's rotting in jail for at least the next five years.
No, it wouldn't. Eugene V. Debs ran for office from prison. There are reasons not to leave eligibility for office up to prosecutors.
That we have a totally dysfunctional political system that can't hold anyone accountable for insurrection is a different problem, but don't compensate by transferring the decision over to the criminal justice system with all its documented inequities
posted by mark k at 7:17 PM on March 18, 2021 [40 favorites]
No, it wouldn't. Eugene V. Debs ran for office from prison. There are reasons not to leave eligibility for office up to prosecutors.
That we have a totally dysfunctional political system that can't hold anyone accountable for insurrection is a different problem, but don't compensate by transferring the decision over to the criminal justice system with all its documented inequities
posted by mark k at 7:17 PM on March 18, 2021 [40 favorites]
its walls are lined with what looks like glimmering copper foil, to block remote attempts to tamper with digital evidence. It’s a modern equivalent of Tutankhamun’s tomb.
So it was looted, resealed, and with-in a year buried again in a few feet of flood wash while the father-in law rules then your general after that who erases the past.
posted by clavdivs at 7:18 PM on March 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
So it was looted, resealed, and with-in a year buried again in a few feet of flood wash while the father-in law rules then your general after that who erases the past.
posted by clavdivs at 7:18 PM on March 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
Eugene V. Debs ran for office from prison.
And which president was he?
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:21 PM on March 18, 2021 [14 favorites]
And which president was he?
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:21 PM on March 18, 2021 [14 favorites]
(My main point was that I don't see how he could actually act as president - assuming he could even win - while in prison).
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:26 PM on March 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:26 PM on March 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
I mean, most people who have a felony conviction, it's really hard for them to get any kind of job. To think that with a felony conviction you could become president is, I think, astonishing...This is an interesting extension that Americans make about their criminal justice system; that criminal conviction is supposed to be disenfranchising, not just from formal civil rights (voting, jury service, public office) but from social and economic life too. Many other countries, maybe even most, don't make that leap, or at least not to the same extent; prison is supposed to be punishment enough in its own right. Bobby Sands became a British MP from prison.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:39 PM on March 18, 2021 [19 favorites]
This is an interesting extension that Americans make about their criminal justice system; that criminal conviction is supposed to be disenfranchising, not just from formal civil rights (voting, jury service, public office) but from social and economic life too. Many other countries, maybe even most, don't make that leap, or at least not to the same extent; prison is supposed to be punishment enough in its own right. Bobby Sands became a British MP from prison.
It makes more sense when you understand that modern incarceration was developed in order to replace chattel slavery through exploitation of loopholes in the Thirteenth Amendment.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:48 PM on March 18, 2021 [56 favorites]
It makes more sense when you understand that modern incarceration was developed in order to replace chattel slavery through exploitation of loopholes in the Thirteenth Amendment.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:48 PM on March 18, 2021 [56 favorites]
Super interesting to hear stories pop relating prisoners/etc who transitioned into political figures after sentencing.
posted by firstdaffodils at 8:00 PM on March 18, 2021
posted by firstdaffodils at 8:00 PM on March 18, 2021
Of course there's always The Onion's optimistic reminder. The thought of him dying in prison sure gets me jumping for joy with my heels a-clickin'!
posted by Catblack at 8:06 PM on March 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 8:06 PM on March 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
(My main point was that I don't see how he could actually act as president - assuming he could even win - while in prison).
Fair enough, but the answer is that while some functions can't be run others can be. Unless you support an arbitrary lockdown that serves no security benefit but cuts off outside communication entirely. Prison officials like it, of course, but special exceptions and suspended sentences happen. (And no, I'm not above snarking that Trump's idea of presidenting was just watching Fox News and spending time on Twitter anyway.) It'd be a legitimate constitutional crisis if he won.
States are criminalizing saying mean things to cops, to make it easier to prosecute BLM protesters. I would not be surprised if a progressive (perhaps after winning) faced a prosecution. It's supposed to be up to Congress, not local prosecutors, to decide who goes down.
Super interesting to hear stories pop relating prisoners/etc who transitioned into political figures after sentencing.
Nelson Mandela, of course--the joke was going to prison and then winning an election is doing it in the wrong order. Vaclav Havel. I'm sure someone from the Vietnam Era, but the closest I can come to a specific name is Tom Hayden, who's career in public office followed a conviction that was overturned.
The granddaddy of them all in the (white) American tradition is John Wilkes, radical, spendthrift and attendee of Black Masses, who repeatedly won races for Parliament and was expelled. He was eventually convicted (slander I think, but maybe unpaid debts?) and ran from prison--and still won. He was kicked out again, I believe, but doing so was a huge scandal and an example of overreach by the Crown that the founders were well aware of.
posted by mark k at 8:13 PM on March 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
Fair enough, but the answer is that while some functions can't be run others can be. Unless you support an arbitrary lockdown that serves no security benefit but cuts off outside communication entirely. Prison officials like it, of course, but special exceptions and suspended sentences happen. (And no, I'm not above snarking that Trump's idea of presidenting was just watching Fox News and spending time on Twitter anyway.) It'd be a legitimate constitutional crisis if he won.
States are criminalizing saying mean things to cops, to make it easier to prosecute BLM protesters. I would not be surprised if a progressive (perhaps after winning) faced a prosecution. It's supposed to be up to Congress, not local prosecutors, to decide who goes down.
Super interesting to hear stories pop relating prisoners/etc who transitioned into political figures after sentencing.
Nelson Mandela, of course--the joke was going to prison and then winning an election is doing it in the wrong order. Vaclav Havel. I'm sure someone from the Vietnam Era, but the closest I can come to a specific name is Tom Hayden, who's career in public office followed a conviction that was overturned.
The granddaddy of them all in the (white) American tradition is John Wilkes, radical, spendthrift and attendee of Black Masses, who repeatedly won races for Parliament and was expelled. He was eventually convicted (slander I think, but maybe unpaid debts?) and ran from prison--and still won. He was kicked out again, I believe, but doing so was a huge scandal and an example of overreach by the Crown that the founders were well aware of.
posted by mark k at 8:13 PM on March 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
Wilkes + Mandela I am familiar with, always thinking they were odd exceptions. Curious to hear stories about all these other folks coming out of the woodwork.
"He can still do it!" Very optimistic, Metafilter.
posted by firstdaffodils at 8:19 PM on March 18, 2021
"He can still do it!" Very optimistic, Metafilter.
posted by firstdaffodils at 8:19 PM on March 18, 2021
I think that the most physical punishment we can expect is his wearing an ankle bracelet. And even so, that would have to be after his lawyers dragged it out for years and years. Possibly he won't live that long; his rotten health is the only sure punishment he has brought upon himself.
The important thing is that we're seen to do it, to make the rusty old gears of the law turn in front of the nation. This is the alternative to the sour apple tree, which was threatened in the last civil war. But then, of course, that Confederate president was never held to account, and died in his bed after years of freedom. We must see to it that we make sure this Confederate president doesn't get away as clean.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:22 PM on March 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
The important thing is that we're seen to do it, to make the rusty old gears of the law turn in front of the nation. This is the alternative to the sour apple tree, which was threatened in the last civil war. But then, of course, that Confederate president was never held to account, and died in his bed after years of freedom. We must see to it that we make sure this Confederate president doesn't get away as clean.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:22 PM on March 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
I like the descriptor Confederate President. Curious to hear the NPR segment opinion (uncertain which speaker, sorry) had suggested Donald would flee, asap, if heat became too hot.
..Russia?
posted by firstdaffodils at 8:36 PM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
..Russia?
posted by firstdaffodils at 8:36 PM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
[my comment above sounds kinda menacing, here to clarify that it shouldn't be, we are civilized now and law is the work of civilization]
Anyway, I am hearing that Trump is dithering these days, that he doesn't have a clear plan for how to attack the nation, or the GOP, or whatever he feels like doing. It doesn't mean that he won't have it, but his current weakness is helpful to the workings of justice.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:49 PM on March 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
Anyway, I am hearing that Trump is dithering these days, that he doesn't have a clear plan for how to attack the nation, or the GOP, or whatever he feels like doing. It doesn't mean that he won't have it, but his current weakness is helpful to the workings of justice.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:49 PM on March 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
relating prisoners/etc who transitioned into political figures after sentencingUnless you exclude 'political' crime, it's hard to escape the well-known German leader of the 20thC who did it. Other countries also have their own peculiar histories (in China both Deng Xiaoping and Xi Jinping were 'rusticated' during the Cultural Revolution and Hu Yaobang was purged twice, most of the early Soviet leaders had had pre-Revolutionary brushes with the law in many countries, or were in and out of camps in the 1930s, any number of postwar European politicians had been prisoners during WWII). None of those places are a good comparison for the modern USA.
In my own country, William Holman was jailed for fraud before entered Parliament, became NSW Premier, and one of the founders of the Labor Party. John Curtin was jailed for refusing a military medical examination in 1917, before he became Prime Minister during WWII. Bob Brown (then a doctor) went to prison in 1983 for protesting a hydroelectric dam, then began a political career that involved founding the Australian Greens. Any number of respected public figures of the 19thC were former convicts, of course.
Silvio Berlusconi is a better comparison, he's been in and out of court since the early 2000s, and was elected to the European Parliament after serving a six-year ban for tax fraud, and it's unclear whether he'll be eligible to run again.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:59 PM on March 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
(My main point was that I don't see how he could actually act as president - assuming he could even win - while in prison).
Genuine question, if someone were elected president while imprisoned, could they then pardon themselves as their first act post-inauguration? How would inauguration even work in that case?
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:01 PM on March 18, 2021
Genuine question, if someone were elected president while imprisoned, could they then pardon themselves as their first act post-inauguration? How would inauguration even work in that case?
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:01 PM on March 18, 2021
Fiasco, protestors/etc. contextually make sense as far as election concerns go, tax fraud or other morally ambiguous routes start to get really interesting.
I'd been somewhat interested in presidential history, I hadn't considered sordid presidential history.
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:13 PM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'd been somewhat interested in presidential history, I hadn't considered sordid presidential history.
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:13 PM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
But you're right that a felony conviction wouldn't disqualify Trump from a second term.
IIRC, in Australia our federal constitution explicitly forbids anybody who has been convicted of a crime that carries the potential of a jail term of a year or more from being an MP.
Note it only has to be the potential. They don't have to get an actual sentence of a year or more.
posted by Pouteria at 9:19 PM on March 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
IIRC, in Australia our federal constitution explicitly forbids anybody who has been convicted of a crime that carries the potential of a jail term of a year or more from being an MP.
Note it only has to be the potential. They don't have to get an actual sentence of a year or more.
posted by Pouteria at 9:19 PM on March 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
Eugene V. Debs ran for office from prison.
And which president was he?
So far no prisoner has ever been elected president. Some of us recall an era when no spray-tanned former game show host had ever been elected president either.
Everything is unprecedented until it’s not.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:46 PM on March 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
And which president was he?
So far no prisoner has ever been elected president. Some of us recall an era when no spray-tanned former game show host had ever been elected president either.
Everything is unprecedented until it’s not.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:46 PM on March 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
"spray tanned former gameshow host" *the deepest shudder*
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:54 PM on March 18, 2021
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:54 PM on March 18, 2021
How does this translate in Russian:
- Americo Capelli: He's okay. He always was. Remo, what do you think?
- Remo Gaggi: Look... why take a chance? At least, that's the way I feel about it.”
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:56 PM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
- Americo Capelli: He's okay. He always was. Remo, what do you think?
- Remo Gaggi: Look... why take a chance? At least, that's the way I feel about it.”
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:56 PM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
DC Mayor Marion Berry was still Mayor during his crack cocaine trail, although he lost the race in which he ran for a council seat in an election right before his sentencing.
But, after he he released he won a council seat and then a final term as Mayor.
posted by sideshow at 11:37 PM on March 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
But, after he he released he won a council seat and then a final term as Mayor.
posted by sideshow at 11:37 PM on March 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Genuine question, if someone were elected president while imprisoned, could they then pardon themselves as their first act post-inauguration? How would inauguration even work in that case?
Short answer is who knows?
In this case the charges are state, and the president could not pardon anyone except for federal charges. But if we imagine a different situation, the easy part of this is inauguration, which doesn't need to be a big ceremony. Coolidge was sworn by his father after Hoover died. (His father was a judge, not just some total rando, but still.)
Once inaugurated, it's still debated whether the president can pardon himself. It seems to me the bulk of scholars think the answer is "no" but there is no court precedent. So the Supreme Court would have to choose to involve itself, and then make a ruling.
Congress could also impeach in this case for abuse of power. You only need *one* functional branch to stop this, but that's one more than we've had . . .
posted by mark k at 12:06 AM on March 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
Short answer is who knows?
In this case the charges are state, and the president could not pardon anyone except for federal charges. But if we imagine a different situation, the easy part of this is inauguration, which doesn't need to be a big ceremony. Coolidge was sworn by his father after Hoover died. (His father was a judge, not just some total rando, but still.)
Once inaugurated, it's still debated whether the president can pardon himself. It seems to me the bulk of scholars think the answer is "no" but there is no court precedent. So the Supreme Court would have to choose to involve itself, and then make a ruling.
Congress could also impeach in this case for abuse of power. You only need *one* functional branch to stop this, but that's one more than we've had . . .
posted by mark k at 12:06 AM on March 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
Part of Trump’s appeal is that he faces no consequences. His followers love that he can do shit that would they would wind up being divorced, fired, or imprisoned for if they tried it. Trump can still sing a grievance song about being unfairly prosecuted but being caught would make him a bit less magic. Alternative realities notwithstanding, losing an election, losing a bunch of money, and going to prison would take some of the shine off Trump’s story. We’ll have to see anything actually happens this time around.
It’s not an accident that he said he could shoot someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. He’s telling the audience how to think about him, telling them that that invulnerability is part of his legend.
posted by rdr at 12:44 AM on March 19, 2021 [32 favorites]
It’s not an accident that he said he could shoot someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. He’s telling the audience how to think about him, telling them that that invulnerability is part of his legend.
posted by rdr at 12:44 AM on March 19, 2021 [32 favorites]
If Trump goes to prison, chances are he won't be in with the general population. His cell will be generously proportioned and his own. I don't see why they can't put a desk in and allow him to sign executive orders and fulfil his presidential duties to the same extent he did in his first term.
posted by acb at 3:33 AM on March 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by acb at 3:33 AM on March 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think it'll become politically risky for Republicans to keep shielding him and excusing him.
I want to believe this, but people have been saying stuff like this since he started campaigning. The blatant racism, the documented assaults on women, the pedophilia, the pee tape, the North Korea missile fiasco, the Heil Hitler salutes, the invasion of Charlottesville ... and that was just Year 1.
Hell, Republicans kept shielding and excusing him even after he literally directed a flaming mob to hunt them down and murder them. Not just the actual Senators, but also most of the "regular folk" Republicans I know. (Which is admittedly not many; I dropped most anyone who kept licking his boots after August 2017.)
That's the danger of a demagogue -- he has managed to twist people's already-twisted minds to the point where their identity is wrapped around his. It's going to take some serious denazification to get "regular folk" Republicans back to the reality the rest of us inhabit.
posted by basalganglia at 5:08 AM on March 19, 2021 [8 favorites]
I want to believe this, but people have been saying stuff like this since he started campaigning. The blatant racism, the documented assaults on women, the pedophilia, the pee tape, the North Korea missile fiasco, the Heil Hitler salutes, the invasion of Charlottesville ... and that was just Year 1.
Hell, Republicans kept shielding and excusing him even after he literally directed a flaming mob to hunt them down and murder them. Not just the actual Senators, but also most of the "regular folk" Republicans I know. (Which is admittedly not many; I dropped most anyone who kept licking his boots after August 2017.)
That's the danger of a demagogue -- he has managed to twist people's already-twisted minds to the point where their identity is wrapped around his. It's going to take some serious denazification to get "regular folk" Republicans back to the reality the rest of us inhabit.
posted by basalganglia at 5:08 AM on March 19, 2021 [8 favorites]
Simple answer.
No.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:35 AM on March 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
No.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:35 AM on March 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
I personally think that felons, even ones who are currently imprisoned, should not be barred from voting or running for office. Because otherwise, charging people with crimes can turn into a political tool to bar representation to the people that those in power dislike.
posted by fings at 7:22 AM on March 19, 2021 [23 favorites]
posted by fings at 7:22 AM on March 19, 2021 [23 favorites]
I might be less concerned about whether a hypothetically-imprisoned Trump still gets to vote, and more concerned about the fascist political movement he has inspired in various Southern states, which aims to disenfranchise those who are already legally able to. You can easily buy a gun and commit mass murder on the same day, but you can't register and vote on the same day. Trump and his conspirators regularly conspire to make the former easier and the latter even more difficult. I can't say I'd be too sympathetic to his hypothetical plight.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:59 AM on March 19, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:59 AM on March 19, 2021 [13 favorites]
I'm surprised we got this far in this thread with no mention of Boston mayor James Curley, who was convicted of fraud while in office and served out the end of his final term as mayor from a jail cell in Connecticut.
posted by briank at 1:18 PM on March 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by briank at 1:18 PM on March 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
If we are writing speculative futures I think the reason Trump is so terrified of jail is that would end his current 'treatment' regime that he believes is keeping him alive. I mean its likely just vitamin d and cat pee, but he strikes me as the sort of magical thinker that is a true believer in woo.
posted by zenon at 1:27 PM on March 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by zenon at 1:27 PM on March 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
Amazed no one's posted this link, which sums things up nicely: Donald Trump is Drowning in Criminal Investigations and Legally Screwed.
posted by zardoz at 1:46 PM on March 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 1:46 PM on March 19, 2021 [7 favorites]
" A man who once used the law to swamp his enemies, overwhelming them with claims and legal bills, is finding himself on the other side of the wave, unable to control what comes next.
Until recently, “at his level, there was no such thing as being in ‘legal trouble,’ in the way that ordinary people think about it,” said Michael D’Antonio, who wrote a 2015 biography of Trump. He said Trump usually had something he could hold over the head of his opponents: withholding donations, bad press or a messy countersuit. Today, D’Antonio said, in the urban and liberal jurisdictions where Trump is facing the most peril, “nobody needs him now.”
Ty.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:15 PM on March 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
Until recently, “at his level, there was no such thing as being in ‘legal trouble,’ in the way that ordinary people think about it,” said Michael D’Antonio, who wrote a 2015 biography of Trump. He said Trump usually had something he could hold over the head of his opponents: withholding donations, bad press or a messy countersuit. Today, D’Antonio said, in the urban and liberal jurisdictions where Trump is facing the most peril, “nobody needs him now.”
Ty.
posted by firstdaffodils at 2:15 PM on March 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
Did the brits forget to formally charge George Washington?
posted by pwnguin at 5:42 PM on March 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by pwnguin at 5:42 PM on March 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
You will need to make an account using your email and a password of your choosing in order to RTFA
or look it up on archive.org or perhaps install Bypass Paywalls Clean.
posted by flabdablet at 4:42 AM on March 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
or look it up on archive.org or perhaps install Bypass Paywalls Clean.
posted by flabdablet at 4:42 AM on March 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
As aniola pointed out in regards to the former. But thank you for the latter.
posted by y2karl at 5:12 AM on March 20, 2021
posted by y2karl at 5:12 AM on March 20, 2021
I'd be very surprised if he was ever charged with anything. And if he was charged, I'd be very surprised if he was convicted. And if he's convicted I'd be very surprised if he didn't just walk away with the wrist-slapping of a lifetime, doing no time. And if he was sentenced to do some time they'd probably let him serve it at one of his residences.
I'm as hopeful as everyone else here but made sure to be pre-disappointed.
posted by drstrangelove at 9:32 AM on March 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm as hopeful as everyone else here but made sure to be pre-disappointed.
posted by drstrangelove at 9:32 AM on March 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Being a convicted felon would not stop Trump from running for office.
But let's assume the absolute best outcome: not only is Trump convicted (along with several of his family members) but he is actually sent to prison.
What, exactly, would be the logistics if he was sentenced to 10 years in prison in 2023, and won in 2024?
Just as the Constitution doesn't say a person can't be a convicted felon and also be President, there's nothing in the Constitution that says a person currently serving a prison sentence can't be President. Legally Trump could be our first incarcerated President.
But how does that work in practice?
Oddly, here in Texas, we have a bit of experience with that question. State Sen Drew Nixon (no relation to Richard) was convicted for soliciting a prostitute and weapons charges, and sentenced to two six month prison terms. WHile he was a member of the Texas Lege.
The way Texas arranged it was a grimly hilarious example of the absurdity and evil of the carceral system.
While the lege was in session Sen Nixon was let out of prison every Monday morning and would spend from that time until Friday evening in the lege and basically free. Then on Friday evening he'd go back to prison and be put in a cell for the weekend until they let him back out on Monday to go be a lawmaker.
I'm having a difficult time seeing that work for a President, because in theory being President is a 24/7/365 job. Plus a mere state Senator doesn't get a USSS protective detail.
I'll confess it would be hilarious to watch President prisoner Trump eating in the mess wearing a prison orange jumpsuit while being surrounded by USSS guards in three piece suits. But it seems unlikely.
Not that the hilarity would make up for a second Trump term, but it would at least make our decent into doom more amusing.
posted by sotonohito at 8:13 AM on March 23, 2021
But let's assume the absolute best outcome: not only is Trump convicted (along with several of his family members) but he is actually sent to prison.
What, exactly, would be the logistics if he was sentenced to 10 years in prison in 2023, and won in 2024?
Just as the Constitution doesn't say a person can't be a convicted felon and also be President, there's nothing in the Constitution that says a person currently serving a prison sentence can't be President. Legally Trump could be our first incarcerated President.
But how does that work in practice?
Oddly, here in Texas, we have a bit of experience with that question. State Sen Drew Nixon (no relation to Richard) was convicted for soliciting a prostitute and weapons charges, and sentenced to two six month prison terms. WHile he was a member of the Texas Lege.
The way Texas arranged it was a grimly hilarious example of the absurdity and evil of the carceral system.
While the lege was in session Sen Nixon was let out of prison every Monday morning and would spend from that time until Friday evening in the lege and basically free. Then on Friday evening he'd go back to prison and be put in a cell for the weekend until they let him back out on Monday to go be a lawmaker.
I'm having a difficult time seeing that work for a President, because in theory being President is a 24/7/365 job. Plus a mere state Senator doesn't get a USSS protective detail.
I'll confess it would be hilarious to watch President prisoner Trump eating in the mess wearing a prison orange jumpsuit while being surrounded by USSS guards in three piece suits. But it seems unlikely.
Not that the hilarity would make up for a second Trump term, but it would at least make our decent into doom more amusing.
posted by sotonohito at 8:13 AM on March 23, 2021
Sidney Powell legal update: A key member of the legal team that sought to steal the 2020 election for Donald Trump is defending herself against a billion-dollar defamation lawsuit by arguing that “no reasonable person” could have mistaken her wild claims about election fraud last November as statements of fact. In a motion to dismiss a complaint by the large US-based voting machine company Dominion, lawyers for Sidney Powell argued that elaborate conspiracies she laid out on television and radio last November while simultaneously suing to overturn election results in four states constituted legally protected first amendment speech. (The Guardian, March 23, 2021)
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:50 PM on March 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:50 PM on March 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
If memory serves me correctly, she is taking a page directly from the Fox News playbook, which successfully dodged a defamation claim by arguing in court that "no reasonable person" would consider Tucker Carlson actual news.
(Which is baffling, as though I am not a lawyer, I was unaware of the "I was only kidding" defense to defaming people before a national TV audience.)
posted by Gelatin at 1:20 PM on March 23, 2021
(Which is baffling, as though I am not a lawyer, I was unaware of the "I was only kidding" defense to defaming people before a national TV audience.)
posted by Gelatin at 1:20 PM on March 23, 2021
If memory serves me correctly, she is taking a page directly from the Fox News playbook, which successfully dodged a defamation claim by arguing in court that "no reasonable person" would consider Tucker Carlson actual news.
If I understand it correctly, the real issue is that she put those allegations into complaints filed with the Court -- which the Court expects to be truthful or there's ethics and bar issues.
posted by mikelieman at 2:56 PM on March 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
If I understand it correctly, the real issue is that she put those allegations into complaints filed with the Court -- which the Court expects to be truthful or there's ethics and bar issues.
posted by mikelieman at 2:56 PM on March 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
If I understand it correctly, the real issue is that she put those allegations into complaints filed with the Court -- which the Court expects to be truthful or there's ethics and bar issues.
The whole "judges expect you not to actually lie to them" thing is why all of Trump's election lawsuits crashed and burned. In some cases they had to admit in court that they had no evidence backing up their public statements.
Let's hope the judge takes as dim a view of Powell's actions as we do.
posted by Gelatin at 3:52 AM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
The whole "judges expect you not to actually lie to them" thing is why all of Trump's election lawsuits crashed and burned. In some cases they had to admit in court that they had no evidence backing up their public statements.
Let's hope the judge takes as dim a view of Powell's actions as we do.
posted by Gelatin at 3:52 AM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
lawyers for Sidney Powell argued that elaborate conspiracies she laid out on television and radio last November while simultaneously suing to overturn election results in four states constituted legally protected first amendment speech
Even if that were actually the case, surely all it would mean is that the US Government couldn't come after her for saying those things? Dominion isn't the US Government.
posted by flabdablet at 10:52 AM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
Even if that were actually the case, surely all it would mean is that the US Government couldn't come after her for saying those things? Dominion isn't the US Government.
posted by flabdablet at 10:52 AM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
Once the court systems are involved, the government is involved. This isn't like Dominion banning Powell from their message boards; they are asking the state to enforce a judgment against her, seize her property and transfer it to them.
posted by mark k at 12:51 PM on March 24, 2021
posted by mark k at 12:51 PM on March 24, 2021
Sidney Powell's Ridiculous Defense (She Lied the Whole Time?) (YouTube, LegalEagle)
posted by flabdablet at 8:19 AM on March 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 8:19 AM on March 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Once the court systems are involved, the government is involved. This isn't like Dominion banning Powell from their message boards; they are asking the state to enforce a judgment against her, seize her property and transfer it to them.
That's because we have these things called "laws" that say that while the government can't stop you from telling lies -- at which conservatives everywhere heave sigh of relief -- someone you lie about can sue you for damages, First Amendment notwithstanding.
posted by Gelatin at 4:18 AM on March 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
That's because we have these things called "laws" that say that while the government can't stop you from telling lies -- at which conservatives everywhere heave sigh of relief -- someone you lie about can sue you for damages, First Amendment notwithstanding.
posted by Gelatin at 4:18 AM on March 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
My point was that, while the First Amendment doesn't apply to private actions, laws and courts are not private and can't violate it. Libel and slander laws need to balance first amendment right with as other public interests when they regulate speech, and can't for example make all "lies" actionable.
So it isn't automatically irrelevant if a private actor sues you. Here's a discussion with Fox using precedents along those lines in one of its voting rights cases--per the article it seems like an uphill battle but not legal nonsense.
To be clear I haven't seen anyone say Powell's free speech claim makes sense, but that's not because "Dominion isn't the US government" (which was the question I responding to.)
posted by mark k at 10:24 AM on March 29, 2021
So it isn't automatically irrelevant if a private actor sues you. Here's a discussion with Fox using precedents along those lines in one of its voting rights cases--per the article it seems like an uphill battle but not legal nonsense.
To be clear I haven't seen anyone say Powell's free speech claim makes sense, but that's not because "Dominion isn't the US government" (which was the question I responding to.)
posted by mark k at 10:24 AM on March 29, 2021
The bigger issue is that free speech "absolutists" have worked to extend the expanse of the First Amendment to some frankly ridiculous extents. (Case in point: famed First Amendment litigator Floyd Abrams is currently arguing that the First protects facial recognition, which if successful will make it near impossible to regulate.) Defamation is all but a dead letter these days because of how "free speech" is viewed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:54 AM on March 29, 2021
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:54 AM on March 29, 2021
TBH I'm fine with defemation being close to impossible to prosecute. It keeps the rich from being able to abuse those laws and silence their critics.
Can you imagine what Trump, Musk, Bezos, etc would do with loser defemation laws?
posted by sotonohito at 11:38 AM on April 1, 2021
Can you imagine what Trump, Musk, Bezos, etc would do with loser defemation laws?
posted by sotonohito at 11:38 AM on April 1, 2021
TBH I'm fine with defemation being close to impossible to prosecute. It keeps the rich from being able to abuse those laws and silence their critics.
Can you imagine what Trump, Musk, Bezos, etc would do with loser defemation laws?
Those tighter laws allowed Musk to openly defame a critic and face no legal repercussions for doing so, remember. The idea that by binding our hands we bind theirs has been sorely lacking in evidence.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:35 PM on April 1, 2021
Can you imagine what Trump, Musk, Bezos, etc would do with loser defemation laws?
Those tighter laws allowed Musk to openly defame a critic and face no legal repercussions for doing so, remember. The idea that by binding our hands we bind theirs has been sorely lacking in evidence.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:35 PM on April 1, 2021
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posted by aniola at 5:56 PM on March 18, 2021 [16 favorites]