We Have a Himars, Ho-Ho-Ho
December 27, 2022 4:00 AM Subscribe
Why are you guys just regurgitating propaganda?
It's not that simple. In the area where I live, (north-eastern Germany) Putin and his army is/was a plausible danger. A thing that sat just over the horizon, and threatened you. Yes, they sold us lots and lots of gas and oil (under the sad, sad, sad misapprehension that trade would tie them closer to western ideals of democracy. This has been a long, sad German story) but they were never truly "friendly."
And then they attacked Ukraine and the theoretical threat they posed became an actual one. And, for a couple months, we had to make sure our ducks were in order in case we had to leave.
Ukraine didn't provoke this, Europe didn't provoke this - it's all on Putin. And, it's going poorly which is great. In fact, I hope it spells the end of him, though he won't be replaced by some benevolent, peace-loving democrat-believing figure - fuck Putin.
In the meantime, anything celebrating the demise of Putin and his army, I will celebrate alongside. Not the defense contractors, or the arms dealers but the use of their weapons against Putin (in such a way that I don't care if the weapon is a hammer or a rock or an iron pan or a satellite-guided missile or a bullet that shoots around corners and costs a thousand bucks a pop.)
Fuck Putin and his army. May they loose catastrophically.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:07 AM on December 27, 2022 [78 favorites]
It's not that simple. In the area where I live, (north-eastern Germany) Putin and his army is/was a plausible danger. A thing that sat just over the horizon, and threatened you. Yes, they sold us lots and lots of gas and oil (under the sad, sad, sad misapprehension that trade would tie them closer to western ideals of democracy. This has been a long, sad German story) but they were never truly "friendly."
And then they attacked Ukraine and the theoretical threat they posed became an actual one. And, for a couple months, we had to make sure our ducks were in order in case we had to leave.
Ukraine didn't provoke this, Europe didn't provoke this - it's all on Putin. And, it's going poorly which is great. In fact, I hope it spells the end of him, though he won't be replaced by some benevolent, peace-loving democrat-believing figure - fuck Putin.
In the meantime, anything celebrating the demise of Putin and his army, I will celebrate alongside. Not the defense contractors, or the arms dealers but the use of their weapons against Putin (in such a way that I don't care if the weapon is a hammer or a rock or an iron pan or a satellite-guided missile or a bullet that shoots around corners and costs a thousand bucks a pop.)
Fuck Putin and his army. May they loose catastrophically.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:07 AM on December 27, 2022 [78 favorites]
Why are you guys just regurgitating propaganda?It’s good to cheer for the good guys and gals.
posted by JoeBlubaugh at 5:41 AM on December 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
Indica: it's great that you feel comfortable denouncing the military industrial complex's role in the Ukraine war.
Meanwhile, in Russia: Russian meat magnate who criticised Putin’s war dies after hotel fall.
posted by cstross at 6:10 AM on December 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
Meanwhile, in Russia: Russian meat magnate who criticised Putin’s war dies after hotel fall.
A Russian sausage magnate who briefly criticised Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has died after falling from the third-floor window of a luxury hotel in India.The police say it was suicide, of course.
Pavel Antov was a member of Vladimir Putin’s United Russia Party and a multi-millionaire, having founded one of the country’s largest sausage makers. He was reportedly on a trip to celebrate his upcoming 66th birthday when he was found lying in a pool of blood outside the Hotel Sai International in Rayagada, in the southern state of Odisha.
posted by cstross at 6:10 AM on December 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
while you deeply propagandized idiots
If cheering for the victim makes me an idiot, then I'm happy to be an idiot. If cheering for the aggressor is wise, then what good is wisdom?
We don't talk to each other like this here.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:23 AM on December 27, 2022 [55 favorites]
If cheering for the victim makes me an idiot, then I'm happy to be an idiot. If cheering for the aggressor is wise, then what good is wisdom?
We don't talk to each other like this here.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:23 AM on December 27, 2022 [55 favorites]
A Russian sausage magnate who briefly criticised Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has died after falling from the third-floor window of a luxury hotel in India.
Clearly Putin fears the wurst.
posted by chavenet at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2022 [72 favorites]
Clearly Putin fears the wurst.
posted by chavenet at 6:29 AM on December 27, 2022 [72 favorites]
Every Finn with WW2 era (and earlier) Finnish ancestors is born with a mistrust of Russia in their blood, so I’m happily (and knowingly) a connoisseur of Ukrainian propaganda just because of the warm fluffies and validation it gives me.
The day will come, some time after the conflict is over and Putin is gone, when Ukraine will lose its luster of righteousness and again become just one Eastern European nation among others, with internal issues like corruption again at the forefront. I’d like to think that few don’t understand this or see this coming. But until then, keep those memes and delicious Russian L’s coming!
posted by jklaiho at 6:46 AM on December 27, 2022 [24 favorites]
The day will come, some time after the conflict is over and Putin is gone, when Ukraine will lose its luster of righteousness and again become just one Eastern European nation among others, with internal issues like corruption again at the forefront. I’d like to think that few don’t understand this or see this coming. But until then, keep those memes and delicious Russian L’s coming!
posted by jklaiho at 6:46 AM on December 27, 2022 [24 favorites]
Clearly Putin fears the wurst.
Perhaps the sausage magnate was being a little too frank about his prospects.
posted by phooky at 7:08 AM on December 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Perhaps the sausage magnate was being a little too frank about his prospects.
posted by phooky at 7:08 AM on December 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Because for once the neoliberals are on our side when it comes to dealing with the fucking fascists.
I don't think they're on the same side, I think we're both facing the same direction. If Russia invaded and Zelensky's Nazi Mirror World opposite was in charge they would be almost as happy to send them arms as they are now.
It's also a refreshing change of pace for US military industries! We just spent a trillion dollars and 20 years prosecuting a war and occupying two countries with their weapons and "innovations". At the end of it, we couldn't keep Afghanistan under the thumb of hegemony long enough to get every chopper of the roof of the goddamn embassy. A lot of failure on many levels, one of which was the promise of missile and drone warfare from which the MIC profits incredibly.
In this instance, these weapons are apparently working. Maybe because they're landing on invading troops and not weddings or funerals.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:12 AM on December 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don't think they're on the same side, I think we're both facing the same direction. If Russia invaded and Zelensky's Nazi Mirror World opposite was in charge they would be almost as happy to send them arms as they are now.
It's also a refreshing change of pace for US military industries! We just spent a trillion dollars and 20 years prosecuting a war and occupying two countries with their weapons and "innovations". At the end of it, we couldn't keep Afghanistan under the thumb of hegemony long enough to get every chopper of the roof of the goddamn embassy. A lot of failure on many levels, one of which was the promise of missile and drone warfare from which the MIC profits incredibly.
In this instance, these weapons are apparently working. Maybe because they're landing on invading troops and not weddings or funerals.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:12 AM on December 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
I live in near Boston, home of Raytheon, Boston Dynamics, and other developers of "orphanage detectors."
I personally know people who have jobs in that sector, and for many years they were conflicted about whether their work was mitigating or worsening the amount of brutality in the world.
They're not so conflicted now.
posted by ocschwar at 7:12 AM on December 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
I personally know people who have jobs in that sector, and for many years they were conflicted about whether their work was mitigating or worsening the amount of brutality in the world.
They're not so conflicted now.
posted by ocschwar at 7:12 AM on December 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
If cheering for the victim makes me an idiot, then I'm happy to be an idiot. If cheering for the aggressor is wise, then what good is wisdom?
Nobody should be calling anyone here an idiot, but respectively, I don't agree with this. For me, I'm not "cheering" for anybody - I'm mourning the innocent lives, Ukrainian and yes, Russian, and cursing the politicians, industrialists, and cultural figures - Putin and the Russian propagandists first and foremost, but yes, the Raytheons and Northrop Grumanns and the politicians in the West too - who are sending yet another generation of young men and women into the hellish meatgrinder of war and pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into killing people. Because that's what war is, at the end of the day - the rich and powerful sending the poor and wretched to die in agony while they sit back and pat themselves on the back. Even WWII, as just a war as you can imagine, was a tragedy of immense proportions. Churchill said after all that we, the "good guys", needed to bomb Germany until the rubble danced.
I will never forget watching Colin Powell address the UN in 2003 and tell the world that Saddam Hussein, as bad a man as Putin, absolutely had weapons of mass destruction and we had to act now to stop him. And you know? I believed him. How could they possibly lie to us? But they did, and millions died. And Dubya is sitting in his ranch in Texas nineteen years later, painting shitty paintings and yukking it up with the other former Presidents. So this time, while I am praying for a quick and speedy end to this, I'm holding myself back. I'm not going to talk about how cool it was that Zelenskyy wore fatigues to address Congress. I'm not going to laugh along with memes and soldiers borrowing quotes from fucking Die Hard - that's not funny, that's sick.
I'm not trying to paint myself as some paragon of virtue - don't get me wrong. But you know what? I'm done buying into this shit. I did think long and hard about flying a Ukrainian flag outside my house after the invasion, because I truly feel the invasion was unwarranted and barbaric. But instead, I found a solid color black flag and I'm flying that instead, so long as there are innocent men and women dying while others - including all of us, if I'm being honest - "cheer" them on from the comfort of our warm and tidy homes, making comments on Internet message boards about "neoliberals" and "fascists", following war coverage like it's some sort of sick chess game. I'm fucking done with picking sides. I'm on humanity's side.
posted by fortitude25 at 7:16 AM on December 27, 2022 [21 favorites]
Nobody should be calling anyone here an idiot, but respectively, I don't agree with this. For me, I'm not "cheering" for anybody - I'm mourning the innocent lives, Ukrainian and yes, Russian, and cursing the politicians, industrialists, and cultural figures - Putin and the Russian propagandists first and foremost, but yes, the Raytheons and Northrop Grumanns and the politicians in the West too - who are sending yet another generation of young men and women into the hellish meatgrinder of war and pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into killing people. Because that's what war is, at the end of the day - the rich and powerful sending the poor and wretched to die in agony while they sit back and pat themselves on the back. Even WWII, as just a war as you can imagine, was a tragedy of immense proportions. Churchill said after all that we, the "good guys", needed to bomb Germany until the rubble danced.
I will never forget watching Colin Powell address the UN in 2003 and tell the world that Saddam Hussein, as bad a man as Putin, absolutely had weapons of mass destruction and we had to act now to stop him. And you know? I believed him. How could they possibly lie to us? But they did, and millions died. And Dubya is sitting in his ranch in Texas nineteen years later, painting shitty paintings and yukking it up with the other former Presidents. So this time, while I am praying for a quick and speedy end to this, I'm holding myself back. I'm not going to talk about how cool it was that Zelenskyy wore fatigues to address Congress. I'm not going to laugh along with memes and soldiers borrowing quotes from fucking Die Hard - that's not funny, that's sick.
I'm not trying to paint myself as some paragon of virtue - don't get me wrong. But you know what? I'm done buying into this shit. I did think long and hard about flying a Ukrainian flag outside my house after the invasion, because I truly feel the invasion was unwarranted and barbaric. But instead, I found a solid color black flag and I'm flying that instead, so long as there are innocent men and women dying while others - including all of us, if I'm being honest - "cheer" them on from the comfort of our warm and tidy homes, making comments on Internet message boards about "neoliberals" and "fascists", following war coverage like it's some sort of sick chess game. I'm fucking done with picking sides. I'm on humanity's side.
posted by fortitude25 at 7:16 AM on December 27, 2022 [21 favorites]
I don't think they're on the same side, I think we're both facing the same direction. If Russia invaded and Zelensky's Nazi Mirror World opposite was in charge they would be almost as happy to send them arms as they are now.
Yes. Hence the "for once".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:25 AM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes. Hence the "for once".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:25 AM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Because that's what war is, at the end of the day - the rich and powerful sending the poor and wretched to die in agony while they sit back and pat themselves on the back.
I can't follow how this is your take on the current situation in Ukraine. Who are the rich and powerful patting themselves on the Ukrainian side?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:39 AM on December 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
I can't follow how this is your take on the current situation in Ukraine. Who are the rich and powerful patting themselves on the Ukrainian side?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:39 AM on December 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
Because that's what war is, at the end of the day - the rich and powerful sending the poor and wretched to die in agony while they sit back and pat themselves on the back.
Yes, the (checks original tweet) Ukrainian Ministry of Defense is definitely sending the poor and wretched to die in agony while sitting back and patting themselves on the back.
War is bad. But here's the weird thing about this war -- it's not this sad unavoidable tragedy perpetrated on both sides. Putin. invaded. Ukraine. and. Ukraine. is. fighting. for. its. literal. existence. Comparing this to the Iraq War is valid, but only if you're saying it in Russian.
posted by Etrigan at 8:02 AM on December 27, 2022 [55 favorites]
Yes, the (checks original tweet) Ukrainian Ministry of Defense is definitely sending the poor and wretched to die in agony while sitting back and patting themselves on the back.
War is bad. But here's the weird thing about this war -- it's not this sad unavoidable tragedy perpetrated on both sides. Putin. invaded. Ukraine. and. Ukraine. is. fighting. for. its. literal. existence. Comparing this to the Iraq War is valid, but only if you're saying it in Russian.
posted by Etrigan at 8:02 AM on December 27, 2022 [55 favorites]
Putin and the Russian propagandists first and foremost, but yes, the Raytheons and Northrop Grumanns and the politicians in the West too - who are sending yet another generation of young men and women into the hellish meatgrinder of war and pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into killing people.
It is unclear how the Western military industrial complex is sending anyone to their death that wasn't already marked. The Ukrainian men and women who've died as a result of this war? We know that Russia brought body bags with them, and they were planning massacres - and carried some out. Was this Raytheon's fault? The Russian conscripts who've been shoved into Ukraine to die weren't ordered there by Northrop Grummans or by Boris Johnson.
Now, we could instead say that the consequences of the war have mainly fallen on the poor, which is true but not very meaningful because being absolutely ruined by slight changes in circumstances is what poverty is. But I'd argue that this has happened not because the military-industrial complex shrugged its shoulders and saw a way to profit off human misery, in this particular case, but because the Western powers mistakenly believed that war is a game played between greedy fat cats, so war could be eliminated via global trade. So they traded lots with Russia, and become dependent on their fossil fuels. But wars aren't always done for profit. Sometimes wars happen because a leader is monstrous. Sometimes a leader wants a lot of people to die.
I have not seen much evidence to suggests anything other than what is commonly understood about this war (one that's been unusual in the way it's been conducted in public, to the point where US intelligence services were collaborating with open-source intelligence services). Specifically, Vladimir Putin, in his isolation, has come to believe he can do whatever he wants if it wasn't for the wicked West and their genders, and has decided he will "reunify" Ukraine by eliminating the Ukrainian state. It is a decidedly one-sided affair, and for Ukraine the choice is between a long, grinding war, or genocide.
posted by Merus at 8:04 AM on December 27, 2022 [27 favorites]
It is unclear how the Western military industrial complex is sending anyone to their death that wasn't already marked. The Ukrainian men and women who've died as a result of this war? We know that Russia brought body bags with them, and they were planning massacres - and carried some out. Was this Raytheon's fault? The Russian conscripts who've been shoved into Ukraine to die weren't ordered there by Northrop Grummans or by Boris Johnson.
Now, we could instead say that the consequences of the war have mainly fallen on the poor, which is true but not very meaningful because being absolutely ruined by slight changes in circumstances is what poverty is. But I'd argue that this has happened not because the military-industrial complex shrugged its shoulders and saw a way to profit off human misery, in this particular case, but because the Western powers mistakenly believed that war is a game played between greedy fat cats, so war could be eliminated via global trade. So they traded lots with Russia, and become dependent on their fossil fuels. But wars aren't always done for profit. Sometimes wars happen because a leader is monstrous. Sometimes a leader wants a lot of people to die.
I have not seen much evidence to suggests anything other than what is commonly understood about this war (one that's been unusual in the way it's been conducted in public, to the point where US intelligence services were collaborating with open-source intelligence services). Specifically, Vladimir Putin, in his isolation, has come to believe he can do whatever he wants if it wasn't for the wicked West and their genders, and has decided he will "reunify" Ukraine by eliminating the Ukrainian state. It is a decidedly one-sided affair, and for Ukraine the choice is between a long, grinding war, or genocide.
posted by Merus at 8:04 AM on December 27, 2022 [27 favorites]
A lot of the Ukrainian propaganda is interesting precisely because it is so open and tongue-in-cheek. It isn't pretending not to be propaganda and that's part of why people have responded well to it (as well as this being such an unusual conflict with clear "good" vs "bad" sides).
In this instance, these weapons are apparently working. Maybe because they're landing on invading troops and not weddings or funerals.
Also of note is that the majority of weapons that have been given to the Ukrainians are old, nearly obsolete systems that the western militaries have been wanting to get rid of. And even so, those old weapons systems have been spanking the Russian army to a shocking degree. (There have also been articles that hint that some cutting edge weapons systems have been provided for battlefield testing, but I don't believe that has been confirmed and certainly doesn't represent any large part of what is being provided.)
So it's going to be a bonanza for the defense contractors since they are starting to get the contracts to backfill the old stuff that is being donated, but I don't see anything that suggests those companies are driving this train.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:18 AM on December 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
In this instance, these weapons are apparently working. Maybe because they're landing on invading troops and not weddings or funerals.
Also of note is that the majority of weapons that have been given to the Ukrainians are old, nearly obsolete systems that the western militaries have been wanting to get rid of. And even so, those old weapons systems have been spanking the Russian army to a shocking degree. (There have also been articles that hint that some cutting edge weapons systems have been provided for battlefield testing, but I don't believe that has been confirmed and certainly doesn't represent any large part of what is being provided.)
So it's going to be a bonanza for the defense contractors since they are starting to get the contracts to backfill the old stuff that is being donated, but I don't see anything that suggests those companies are driving this train.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:18 AM on December 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Let's start with this comment:
I live in near Boston, home of Raytheon, Boston Dynamics, and other developers of "orphanage detectors."
I personally know people who have jobs in that sector, and for many years they were conflicted about whether their work was mitigating or worsening the amount of brutality in the world.
They're not so conflicted now.
I am so glad to hear that the employees of Raytheon can feel better about themselves as they design even more efficient ways to kill and maim other human beings. Hopefully when the Ukraine war ends, another terrible war will begin where we are 100% sure we are on the side of the angels, so they can continue to feel really good about themselves.
Putin. invaded. Ukraine. and. Ukraine. is. fighting. for. its. literal. existence
107 years ago, Imperial Germany invaded plucky little Belgium (who themselves were fresh off of genociding Africans), in an unprovoked war of aggression much like Putin has done. So, millions of (mostly) men were shipped overseas to die in agony in pits of mud, while white feathers for "cowardice" were handed out to the few men left behind. My own great grandfather was quoted in his local paper in 1915 as saying any man who doesn't sign up to fight the Hun isn't a real man, because this was a war for civilization! He survived the horrors of the Western Front and mustard gas, and to the end of his days kept that newspaper to tell his family he regretted that macho tough talk more than anything else he ever said.
I will grant you that this time around, our governments are not actually sending our citizens to Kherson and Kharkiv to kill, die, and be maimed. They've learned. Instead, our governments can simply sell weapons to the Ukrainians for what I'm sure is a reasonable profit (can't totally ignore the bottom line), let them take all of the losses, and we can "cheer" on another destructive, bloody conflict with the added benefit that none of us will actually be asked to sacrifice anything. That's what sticks in my craw, comfortable Westerners chuckling over memes like the one shared in the original link. I don't find anything particularly funny about the Ukrainian government comparing a shooting war to Die Hard.
posted by fortitude25 at 8:57 AM on December 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
I live in near Boston, home of Raytheon, Boston Dynamics, and other developers of "orphanage detectors."
I personally know people who have jobs in that sector, and for many years they were conflicted about whether their work was mitigating or worsening the amount of brutality in the world.
They're not so conflicted now.
I am so glad to hear that the employees of Raytheon can feel better about themselves as they design even more efficient ways to kill and maim other human beings. Hopefully when the Ukraine war ends, another terrible war will begin where we are 100% sure we are on the side of the angels, so they can continue to feel really good about themselves.
Putin. invaded. Ukraine. and. Ukraine. is. fighting. for. its. literal. existence
107 years ago, Imperial Germany invaded plucky little Belgium (who themselves were fresh off of genociding Africans), in an unprovoked war of aggression much like Putin has done. So, millions of (mostly) men were shipped overseas to die in agony in pits of mud, while white feathers for "cowardice" were handed out to the few men left behind. My own great grandfather was quoted in his local paper in 1915 as saying any man who doesn't sign up to fight the Hun isn't a real man, because this was a war for civilization! He survived the horrors of the Western Front and mustard gas, and to the end of his days kept that newspaper to tell his family he regretted that macho tough talk more than anything else he ever said.
I will grant you that this time around, our governments are not actually sending our citizens to Kherson and Kharkiv to kill, die, and be maimed. They've learned. Instead, our governments can simply sell weapons to the Ukrainians for what I'm sure is a reasonable profit (can't totally ignore the bottom line), let them take all of the losses, and we can "cheer" on another destructive, bloody conflict with the added benefit that none of us will actually be asked to sacrifice anything. That's what sticks in my craw, comfortable Westerners chuckling over memes like the one shared in the original link. I don't find anything particularly funny about the Ukrainian government comparing a shooting war to Die Hard.
posted by fortitude25 at 8:57 AM on December 27, 2022 [13 favorites]
I hear you, and I’d feel conflicted if the Ukrainians (the real victims of this war) found it inappropriate or appalling for Western audiences to laugh at the sick memes. But the victims of this war *want* us to laugh at their memes - they think (probably rightly) that it’s in their interest for us to do so. And as long as that’s the case, I’ll laugh at Ukrainian MoD memes with a clear conscience.
posted by Mr. Excellent at 9:00 AM on December 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Mr. Excellent at 9:00 AM on December 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm not going to get upset over nazis getting punched & the resulting mockery.
That statement reminds me of something that happened to me when I was fifteen years old. Bear with me for this story - it has a point to this thread, and I think it's important to tell.
I was bullied badly that year in school. It was almost entirely unprovoked, although being an awkward kid I had a hard time defusing the situation when it started.
Finally, one of the guys pushed too far. I can't remember exactly what the assault was, but let's say it was my binder getting thrown in a puddle and getting punched. I do remember it was out of nowhere. So, I punched back - I landed three or four punches and broke his nose and shattered his front two teeth. I still remember the cracking sound his nose made and the plop, plop, plop of the blood on the ground, and a chip of his tooth embedded in my fist. Like most bullies do when someone hits them back, he folded instantly and started to cry. I was in shock, initially, and since this happened near the school someone alerted the teachers and I was led off to cool down in the principal's office. It was a pretty clear cut case of self defence, so I think they had my parents pick up and take me home for the rest of the day, and apologize to the principal later on for fighting on school grounds.
But here's the thing. I didn't feel great that I had finally stood up to a bully. I felt horrible, like I wanted to vomit. I felt like I had violated my moral code to not hurt another human being, because that's what I did. The fact it was done to someone in complete self-defense didn't make it any easier. I just kept remembering the cracking sound the guy's nose made, the shock and pain and fear in his eyes, and the fact that it was there because I put those feelings there with my fist. It didn't make me feel good or big or strong. It made me feel like I wasn't much better than him. I realized I could have kept going and hurt him even more badly. Sure, he gave me a wide berth from then on, and he was at fault for what happened. So I get that. When you are directly threatened, you do what you need to do, and so in that sense I bristle at the implication I'm somehow not supportive of the people who had their homes invaded.
But when I hear statements like "We cheer it on because it's good to see the invaders lose and die", well, I think it is an immoral statement that's eliding the horrible reality behind those words. Would it be morally correct to say, "We cheer it on because it's good to see an enemy soldier gassed with sulfur mustard, coughing his lungs out onto his chin, watching the fear and pain and agony in his eyes as he realizes that he is dying, crying out for his mother" - or substitute the many, many, many horrible ways you can end a human life in conflict? Because when I read a lot of commentary on the Internet about this war, I see a lot of statements that really don't reckon with the terrible reality of what they are calling for.
If someone had told me after I assaulted that bully - in self defence mind you - that they were "cheering" for me, or that I was an inspiration because it's good to see bullies punched and assaulted, I would have been even more horrified. I didn't want to be an inspiration to anyone, I just wanted to be left alone.
So yes, I will say this openly: cheering on violence, let alone organized warfare, is wrong. Supporting the victim - yes. Doing all we can to bring the warring parties to the diplomacy table - yes. But cheering - no. It's irrelevant to me what they want us to do - I will not participate in that.
posted by fortitude25 at 10:41 AM on December 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
That statement reminds me of something that happened to me when I was fifteen years old. Bear with me for this story - it has a point to this thread, and I think it's important to tell.
I was bullied badly that year in school. It was almost entirely unprovoked, although being an awkward kid I had a hard time defusing the situation when it started.
Finally, one of the guys pushed too far. I can't remember exactly what the assault was, but let's say it was my binder getting thrown in a puddle and getting punched. I do remember it was out of nowhere. So, I punched back - I landed three or four punches and broke his nose and shattered his front two teeth. I still remember the cracking sound his nose made and the plop, plop, plop of the blood on the ground, and a chip of his tooth embedded in my fist. Like most bullies do when someone hits them back, he folded instantly and started to cry. I was in shock, initially, and since this happened near the school someone alerted the teachers and I was led off to cool down in the principal's office. It was a pretty clear cut case of self defence, so I think they had my parents pick up and take me home for the rest of the day, and apologize to the principal later on for fighting on school grounds.
But here's the thing. I didn't feel great that I had finally stood up to a bully. I felt horrible, like I wanted to vomit. I felt like I had violated my moral code to not hurt another human being, because that's what I did. The fact it was done to someone in complete self-defense didn't make it any easier. I just kept remembering the cracking sound the guy's nose made, the shock and pain and fear in his eyes, and the fact that it was there because I put those feelings there with my fist. It didn't make me feel good or big or strong. It made me feel like I wasn't much better than him. I realized I could have kept going and hurt him even more badly. Sure, he gave me a wide berth from then on, and he was at fault for what happened. So I get that. When you are directly threatened, you do what you need to do, and so in that sense I bristle at the implication I'm somehow not supportive of the people who had their homes invaded.
But when I hear statements like "We cheer it on because it's good to see the invaders lose and die", well, I think it is an immoral statement that's eliding the horrible reality behind those words. Would it be morally correct to say, "We cheer it on because it's good to see an enemy soldier gassed with sulfur mustard, coughing his lungs out onto his chin, watching the fear and pain and agony in his eyes as he realizes that he is dying, crying out for his mother" - or substitute the many, many, many horrible ways you can end a human life in conflict? Because when I read a lot of commentary on the Internet about this war, I see a lot of statements that really don't reckon with the terrible reality of what they are calling for.
If someone had told me after I assaulted that bully - in self defence mind you - that they were "cheering" for me, or that I was an inspiration because it's good to see bullies punched and assaulted, I would have been even more horrified. I didn't want to be an inspiration to anyone, I just wanted to be left alone.
So yes, I will say this openly: cheering on violence, let alone organized warfare, is wrong. Supporting the victim - yes. Doing all we can to bring the warring parties to the diplomacy table - yes. But cheering - no. It's irrelevant to me what they want us to do - I will not participate in that.
posted by fortitude25 at 10:41 AM on December 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
I mean, there’s no point having posts about the Russian invasion of Ukraine if we’re going to have to justify ourselves to someone who’s both-sidesing it, is there?
posted by ambrosen at 10:42 AM on December 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 10:42 AM on December 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
I'm fucking done with picking sides. I'm on humanity's side.
If there was ever a time to pick sides, it is now.
The invaders are torturing civilians and abducting children. There's no "both sides" to it. Just, no.
Let's not both-side an attempted genocide.
Ukraine's memes are how they try to keep the West engaged. So much of this war plays out as information warfare with pundits like Tucker Carlson and his ilk shamelessly promoting Russian talking points.
posted by M. at 10:45 AM on December 27, 2022 [47 favorites]
If there was ever a time to pick sides, it is now.
The invaders are torturing civilians and abducting children. There's no "both sides" to it. Just, no.
Let's not both-side an attempted genocide.
Ukraine's memes are how they try to keep the West engaged. So much of this war plays out as information warfare with pundits like Tucker Carlson and his ilk shamelessly promoting Russian talking points.
posted by M. at 10:45 AM on December 27, 2022 [47 favorites]
pretty sure Putin is not on humanity's side :(
posted by supermedusa at 10:55 AM on December 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 10:55 AM on December 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
"We cheer it on because it's good to see the invaders lose and die", well, I think it is an immoral statement that's eliding the horrible reality behind those words.
Absolutely.
I think many many people including many Ukrainians are not cheering the death of Russian soldiers but the liberation of Ukrainian cities and destruction of Russian weapons.
There have been stories of captured Russian soldiers who were given phones to call their families back home.
Many Ukrainians have families in Russia and vice versa.
But also, the reason so many of us are flying Ukrainian flags is that Putin wants to obliterate the country and denies its right to existence. You don't get more under-dog-like than that.
posted by M. at 10:57 AM on December 27, 2022 [18 favorites]
Absolutely.
I think many many people including many Ukrainians are not cheering the death of Russian soldiers but the liberation of Ukrainian cities and destruction of Russian weapons.
There have been stories of captured Russian soldiers who were given phones to call their families back home.
Many Ukrainians have families in Russia and vice versa.
But also, the reason so many of us are flying Ukrainian flags is that Putin wants to obliterate the country and denies its right to existence. You don't get more under-dog-like than that.
posted by M. at 10:57 AM on December 27, 2022 [18 favorites]
I do find it a bit weird when Westerners who are out of the direct line of fire get thrills from eg Ukraine blowing the shit out of Russian tanks. I'm not going to begrudge Ukrainians from feeling whatever, but it's a bit gross when people without a personal stake in it seem to be cheering finally being able to see their tank videogames brought to life.
It would be weird not to cheer Ukrainian survival and battlefield success generally, though.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:03 AM on December 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
It would be weird not to cheer Ukrainian survival and battlefield success generally, though.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:03 AM on December 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
I am strongly in favor of Ukraine. I don't get a kick out of Russian soldiers being killed,. I've got some sympathy for their misery, but I'm also aware a lot of them were conscripted and are committing crimes.
I'm glad for both practical and ethical reasons, that Russian prisoners of war are being well treated.
I've been criticized, yes, even here on the blue, for being concerned for Russian civilians taking damage (some now and much more to come) from the sanctions. Russians are living in a rather poor country in a physically hostile climate. De-industrialization will be deadly, especially for babies and small children. I still think sanctions may be a legitimate tactic.
It may make sense for the US especially and NATO in general to rebuild Russia as well as Ukraine, if possible. The Marshal Plan worked out well, but it may require an unfeasible conquest.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:07 AM on December 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm glad for both practical and ethical reasons, that Russian prisoners of war are being well treated.
I've been criticized, yes, even here on the blue, for being concerned for Russian civilians taking damage (some now and much more to come) from the sanctions. Russians are living in a rather poor country in a physically hostile climate. De-industrialization will be deadly, especially for babies and small children. I still think sanctions may be a legitimate tactic.
It may make sense for the US especially and NATO in general to rebuild Russia as well as Ukraine, if possible. The Marshal Plan worked out well, but it may require an unfeasible conquest.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:07 AM on December 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
It reminds me of Paul Fussel's "Thank God for the Atom Bomb," in which he explains that his WWII service made him aware of what horrors the atomic bomb prevented by avoiding a presumed invasion of the Japanese home islands. He knows that the Japanese people suffers terribly, but also that more and even worse carnage was averted.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:12 AM on December 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 11:12 AM on December 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
I've stayed out of Ukraine war discussions on Mefi, because if you're not helping, then you should get out of the way, and my lamentations and protestations certainly won't be helping anything or anyone. But I've been to Ukraine, I've done business in Ukraine, I have family, friends and collegues in Ukraine; and... Ho-Ho-Ho-Himars, seriously? I shouldn't be surprised that this kind of base jingoism has an receptive audience, but I'm dismayed to find it on Metafilter. What a painful, outrageous trivialization of the horror of the war; of the long, desperate slog towards peace; of the suffocating sludge of violence, profiteering, and criminality, that will be poisoning the fertile fields of Ukraine and beyond, for decades to come. If you package the war as a Bruce Willis action movie, you're telling the public to go and buy tickets. But there's no Bruce. There's no heroes. There's no movie. There's just this terrible, rotten, lurching struggle, and the people it propels, enriches, damages, and kills.
posted by dmh at 11:25 AM on December 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by dmh at 11:25 AM on December 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
I've seen many uncensored videos of what's happening in Ukraine. On Telegram, on Reddit. I've seen things which I won't describe here.
I am sorry for picking on you again, I promise I will cease commenting after this, to avoid threadsitting. But your statement is really representative of my issue with how this war is being presented to Westerners, and frankly, how modern Westerners view conflict. I am sitting at my desk in my comfortable, warm, safe home with the snow gently falling outside my window. In a few minutes, I will get up and fix myself a snack. Aside from the story I told above, I have never been in a situation where I had to resort to physical violence to save myself.
But if I want to, before I go eat a snack, I can click on a few links and watch horrific uncensored videos of human life being ended in various brutal ways halfway across the world. I can then exit my Chrome browser, blink, and go eat a scone. But all I did was consume content. I have sacrificed nothing and I see a lot of people treating this war like they were cheering for sports teams. At least my great grandfather, after he made those foolish boasts about saving the world from Kaiser Bill, had to go live through the Second Battle of Ypres personally and see the reality of what his rhetoric meant. It scarred and troubled him for the rest of his long life.
What a painful, outrageous trivialization of the horror of the war; of the long, desperate slog towards peace; of the suffocating sludge of violence, profiteering, and criminality, that will be poisoning the fertile fields of Ukraine and beyond, for decades to come. If you package the war as a Bruce Willis action movie, you're telling the public to go and buy tickets. But there's no Bruce. There's no heroes. There's no movie. There's just this terrible, rotten, lurching struggle, and the people it propels, enriches, damages, and kills.
God bless you for making this comment, dmh.
posted by fortitude25 at 11:28 AM on December 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
I am sorry for picking on you again, I promise I will cease commenting after this, to avoid threadsitting. But your statement is really representative of my issue with how this war is being presented to Westerners, and frankly, how modern Westerners view conflict. I am sitting at my desk in my comfortable, warm, safe home with the snow gently falling outside my window. In a few minutes, I will get up and fix myself a snack. Aside from the story I told above, I have never been in a situation where I had to resort to physical violence to save myself.
But if I want to, before I go eat a snack, I can click on a few links and watch horrific uncensored videos of human life being ended in various brutal ways halfway across the world. I can then exit my Chrome browser, blink, and go eat a scone. But all I did was consume content. I have sacrificed nothing and I see a lot of people treating this war like they were cheering for sports teams. At least my great grandfather, after he made those foolish boasts about saving the world from Kaiser Bill, had to go live through the Second Battle of Ypres personally and see the reality of what his rhetoric meant. It scarred and troubled him for the rest of his long life.
What a painful, outrageous trivialization of the horror of the war; of the long, desperate slog towards peace; of the suffocating sludge of violence, profiteering, and criminality, that will be poisoning the fertile fields of Ukraine and beyond, for decades to come. If you package the war as a Bruce Willis action movie, you're telling the public to go and buy tickets. But there's no Bruce. There's no heroes. There's no movie. There's just this terrible, rotten, lurching struggle, and the people it propels, enriches, damages, and kills.
God bless you for making this comment, dmh.
posted by fortitude25 at 11:28 AM on December 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Is your argument that we should support Ukraine, but not consume media they produce? That as long as we're not watching videos, we can advocate for whatever we want, but the less ignorant we get, the more we have to support not killing Russian soldiers?
I'm unclear what you want people to *do*, other than feel differently than they do.
You somehow seem to be proposing that it's worse to cheer on violence (against an invading state) than it is to either perpetrate in the defense of your country *or* be one of those invaders.
I'm not sure Russia needs someone carrying so much water for them here. It's Russia sending people to war, not us on the internet.
posted by sagc at 11:35 AM on December 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
I'm unclear what you want people to *do*, other than feel differently than they do.
You somehow seem to be proposing that it's worse to cheer on violence (against an invading state) than it is to either perpetrate in the defense of your country *or* be one of those invaders.
I'm not sure Russia needs someone carrying so much water for them here. It's Russia sending people to war, not us on the internet.
posted by sagc at 11:35 AM on December 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Serious question for people: what sort of constraints would you put on the Ukrainian government, if this sort of thing is a step too far? No more shooting Russians who might have been conscripted? No more propaganda? No more fighting back?
Like, calling this jingoism is a very weird take, I think, unless you're trying to say that both sides in the conflict are fundamentally the same.
posted by sagc at 11:37 AM on December 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Like, calling this jingoism is a very weird take, I think, unless you're trying to say that both sides in the conflict are fundamentally the same.
posted by sagc at 11:37 AM on December 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Supporting the victim - yes. Doing all we can to bring the warring parties to the diplomacy table - yes.
I'm just... astounded at someone saying this. There is a genocidal war being waged by Russia against Ukraine. There's no diplomatic solution when one side's stated goal is to erase the other nation. What, you think they'll go to negotiate and let Putin erase only half the country and kidnap half the children?
I think in your urge to "be on the side of humanity" you've pulled back a little too far in your perspective and overlooked the actual victims of genocide.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:39 AM on December 27, 2022 [54 favorites]
I'm just... astounded at someone saying this. There is a genocidal war being waged by Russia against Ukraine. There's no diplomatic solution when one side's stated goal is to erase the other nation. What, you think they'll go to negotiate and let Putin erase only half the country and kidnap half the children?
I think in your urge to "be on the side of humanity" you've pulled back a little too far in your perspective and overlooked the actual victims of genocide.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:39 AM on December 27, 2022 [54 favorites]
When you are directly threatened, you do what you need to do, and so in that sense I bristle at the implication I'm somehow not supportive of the people who had their homes invaded.
The people who had their homes invaded are the ones who tweeted this. You're not saving their immortal souls by railing on them for daring to laugh at the genocide that is being foisted upon them. You're being not supportive.
posted by Etrigan at 11:41 AM on December 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
The people who had their homes invaded are the ones who tweeted this. You're not saving their immortal souls by railing on them for daring to laugh at the genocide that is being foisted upon them. You're being not supportive.
posted by Etrigan at 11:41 AM on December 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
It should go without saying that the best thing would be for Putin to pack up his army and go back home.
But he won't. And his army will continue to rape murder and pillage.
Pacifist action will not stop them there we run into the Paradox of Tolerance
It is best for the bully to be reached in a peaceful manner, for war to be avoided through diplomatic means, and etc. But there does, unfortunately, come a time when violence meted out must be met with violent resistance.
Does not mean it's fun or cool or great. But it must be faced on its own terms - and its terms are violent ones.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:41 AM on December 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
But he won't. And his army will continue to rape murder and pillage.
Pacifist action will not stop them there we run into the Paradox of Tolerance
It is best for the bully to be reached in a peaceful manner, for war to be avoided through diplomatic means, and etc. But there does, unfortunately, come a time when violence meted out must be met with violent resistance.
Does not mean it's fun or cool or great. But it must be faced on its own terms - and its terms are violent ones.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:41 AM on December 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
But if I want to, before I go eat a snack, I can click on a few links and watch horrific uncensored videos of human life being ended in various brutal ways halfway across the world. I can then exit my Chrome browser, blink, and go eat a scone. But all I did was consume content.
Yeah, I can't get 100 percent behind the social media stuff because everything you said plus Ukraine is the first war I've seen where people were doing stuff like fundraising drone kills online. Like you can get a shout out and death footage just the same as you can get a shout out on a Twitch stream. I guess enjoy it now if you're in the West but this shit is somehow uglier than the usual.
posted by kingdead at 11:47 AM on December 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I can't get 100 percent behind the social media stuff because everything you said plus Ukraine is the first war I've seen where people were doing stuff like fundraising drone kills online. Like you can get a shout out and death footage just the same as you can get a shout out on a Twitch stream. I guess enjoy it now if you're in the West but this shit is somehow uglier than the usual.
posted by kingdead at 11:47 AM on December 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Polish person here.
The reason these videos and memes get made among other things is to make Westerners care.
So yes, Ukraine has to use marketing tactics to keep yall interested. Because as soon as people in the US and UE get tired of hearing about this war the aid will dry up.
As a Polish person that's a very serious concern for my community.
So if funny memes help people care more than the thought of Ukrainian families freezing in their homes, so be it.
Also, funny memes help potential allies see Ukrainians as peers rather than "other".
Stepping off soapbox now, yall have a good discussion.
posted by M. at 11:58 AM on December 27, 2022 [69 favorites]
The reason these videos and memes get made among other things is to make Westerners care.
So yes, Ukraine has to use marketing tactics to keep yall interested. Because as soon as people in the US and UE get tired of hearing about this war the aid will dry up.
As a Polish person that's a very serious concern for my community.
So if funny memes help people care more than the thought of Ukrainian families freezing in their homes, so be it.
Also, funny memes help potential allies see Ukrainians as peers rather than "other".
Stepping off soapbox now, yall have a good discussion.
posted by M. at 11:58 AM on December 27, 2022 [69 favorites]
I'm second generation Ukrainian-Canadian. I think Russia's invasion was unprovoked and unjustifiable. I hope Ukraine, with our help, kicks their asses.
But it astonishes me, the degree to which long time mefites are willing to change their tune for a fashionable war. Our mercenaries and merchants of death are good this time, actually! Almost like there's a pent up lust for blood amongst people who've been performatively suppressing it for the right occasion.
My American friend likes to send me done videos of Russian boys getting turned into hamburger. I can't watch them. Maybe it's necessary, and maybe I'd actually be killing them myself if I was there, but like the rest of you I'm not. I have the luxury of perspective and ambivalence. I feel like I have a duty to indulge both. You can hope for success for one side in a conflict without salivating for the suffering of the opponent, especially considering that, as always, the real victims are the ones with the least agency.
Finally, the suggestion that laughing at memes constitutes any kind of moral or material "support," regardless of whether they're created by Ukrainians, is some embarrassing nonsense. Holy shit.
Anyway, metafilter's appetite for nuance on this particular topic is obviously at rock bottom, so have fun with it, I guess.
Slava Ukraini.
posted by klanawa at 12:21 PM on December 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
But it astonishes me, the degree to which long time mefites are willing to change their tune for a fashionable war. Our mercenaries and merchants of death are good this time, actually! Almost like there's a pent up lust for blood amongst people who've been performatively suppressing it for the right occasion.
My American friend likes to send me done videos of Russian boys getting turned into hamburger. I can't watch them. Maybe it's necessary, and maybe I'd actually be killing them myself if I was there, but like the rest of you I'm not. I have the luxury of perspective and ambivalence. I feel like I have a duty to indulge both. You can hope for success for one side in a conflict without salivating for the suffering of the opponent, especially considering that, as always, the real victims are the ones with the least agency.
Finally, the suggestion that laughing at memes constitutes any kind of moral or material "support," regardless of whether they're created by Ukrainians, is some embarrassing nonsense. Holy shit.
Anyway, metafilter's appetite for nuance on this particular topic is obviously at rock bottom, so have fun with it, I guess.
Slava Ukraini.
posted by klanawa at 12:21 PM on December 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
There's no heroes.
The Ukrainian people look like heroes to me, idk. Not action-movie heroes, but there's a lot of heroism going on over there. Don't get me wrong, needing heroes is a bad thing, but Ukraine is full of people doing extraordinary things that people should never have been asked to do, but they're doing them anyway.
If sometimes that means occasionally reducing it to a dumb action hero narrative... I'm kind of okay with that? On the scale of propaganda it seems pretty benign.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:22 PM on December 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
The Ukrainian people look like heroes to me, idk. Not action-movie heroes, but there's a lot of heroism going on over there. Don't get me wrong, needing heroes is a bad thing, but Ukraine is full of people doing extraordinary things that people should never have been asked to do, but they're doing them anyway.
If sometimes that means occasionally reducing it to a dumb action hero narrative... I'm kind of okay with that? On the scale of propaganda it seems pretty benign.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:22 PM on December 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'm extremely anti war, inasmuch as I've spent time in jail about it, but you'd better believe if an authoritarian nation invaded my home I'd be making molotovs, passing messages, and keeping lookout.
posted by entropone at 12:45 PM on December 27, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by entropone at 12:45 PM on December 27, 2022 [18 favorites]
My American friend likes to send me done videos of Russian boys getting turned into hamburger.
I don't think anyone's doing that here? This is a tragedy, yes. There need not be and should not be glee about the suffering of Russian conscripts, many of whom had no choice.
posted by M. at 12:48 PM on December 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't think anyone's doing that here? This is a tragedy, yes. There need not be and should not be glee about the suffering of Russian conscripts, many of whom had no choice.
posted by M. at 12:48 PM on December 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Slava Ukraini.
Which means Glory to Ukraine. It's not survival of Ukraine or deeply conflicted feelings about the dirty business of defending against genocide in Ukraine. It's the official salute of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which means that a soldier greets a higher-ranking officer by saying Slava Ukraini, and the response from that officer is Heroyam slava, or Glory to the heroes. Complaining about jingoism or performative bloodlust or whatever and then signing off with that is pretty rich.
posted by Etrigan at 12:49 PM on December 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Which means Glory to Ukraine. It's not survival of Ukraine or deeply conflicted feelings about the dirty business of defending against genocide in Ukraine. It's the official salute of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which means that a soldier greets a higher-ranking officer by saying Slava Ukraini, and the response from that officer is Heroyam slava, or Glory to the heroes. Complaining about jingoism or performative bloodlust or whatever and then signing off with that is pretty rich.
posted by Etrigan at 12:49 PM on December 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Seeing Russian tanks and artillery and etc. destroyed is heartening because those are the things that do most of the killing (and were long thought to be Russia's big advantage); and systems like HIMARS are important in getting that job done with less risk to the defenders.
The drone videos of conscripts getting blown up in trenches are different (and different from seeing invaders chased out of towns they were occupying).
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:01 PM on December 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
The drone videos of conscripts getting blown up in trenches are different (and different from seeing invaders chased out of towns they were occupying).
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:01 PM on December 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am so glad to hear that the employees of Raytheon can feel better about themselves as they design even more efficient ways to kill and maim other human beings.
I am so glad that you can bask in the 100% certainty that your efforts to influence events in are world are oriented towards making it gentler and more just. It must be so nice to feel so noble and beneficent every waking moment.
Spare some pity to those of us who feel compelled to question that certainty and test our assumptions against real events and against counterfactuals.
Do you know what the death toll would have been around the world if the port of Odessa remained blockaded to grain exports? Is the blockade a more efficient or less efficient way to kill and maim people?
posted by ocschwar at 1:13 PM on December 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
That said, aren't Ukrainians only supposed to watch Die Hard on January 5th?
posted by ocschwar at 1:30 PM on December 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 1:30 PM on December 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Clearly Putin fears the wurst.
Something something Sausage War.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:05 PM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Something something Sausage War.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:05 PM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Slava Ukraini.
Which means Glory to Ukraine. It's not survival of Ukraine or deeply conflicted feelings about the dirty business of defending against genocide in Ukraine. It's the official salute of the Armed Forces of Ukraine
For those of us with ties to or roots in Ukraine, it's a lot more complicated than that. It has been the official salute of since 2018, but it's been used by Ukrainians in Ukraine and the diaspora since the Ukrainian War of Independence a full century before. The Soviets hated it so much they would throw people in the gulag--or worse--for merely saying the words, but it persisted. It was during Holodomor, and the Orange Revolution. The fact that you've only become aware of it now in this particular jingoistic context does not change that history.
So, for someone watching a nation and its people being forced down a terrible path, with disastrous consequences even to the best-case outcome, it most definitely can mean all those things. War is complicated, always and in all directions, but the only person who chose this one was Putin.
Slava Ukraini.
posted by rpfields at 2:40 PM on December 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
Which means Glory to Ukraine. It's not survival of Ukraine or deeply conflicted feelings about the dirty business of defending against genocide in Ukraine. It's the official salute of the Armed Forces of Ukraine
For those of us with ties to or roots in Ukraine, it's a lot more complicated than that. It has been the official salute of since 2018, but it's been used by Ukrainians in Ukraine and the diaspora since the Ukrainian War of Independence a full century before. The Soviets hated it so much they would throw people in the gulag--or worse--for merely saying the words, but it persisted. It was during Holodomor, and the Orange Revolution. The fact that you've only become aware of it now in this particular jingoistic context does not change that history.
So, for someone watching a nation and its people being forced down a terrible path, with disastrous consequences even to the best-case outcome, it most definitely can mean all those things. War is complicated, always and in all directions, but the only person who chose this one was Putin.
Slava Ukraini.
posted by rpfields at 2:40 PM on December 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
I'm fucking done with picking sides. I'm on humanity's side.
I have good news about supporting Ukraine!
posted by adept256 at 2:57 PM on December 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
I have good news about supporting Ukraine!
posted by adept256 at 2:57 PM on December 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
Also of note is that the majority of weapons that have been given to the Ukrainians are old, nearly obsolete systems that the western militaries have been wanting to get rid of.
This is a good point to make because when someone mentions $$$ billion of military aid, they're not talking about cash money - that's the $$$ equivalent worth of weapons and munitions. 4000 stinger missiles from the 80s are worth money, but it's not upfront. That's from the stockpile, already paid for. It actually costs a lot to store and maintain a stockpile. Selling this stuff has problems, disposing of this stuff has problems. Giving it away is a solution.
There are helpful people that will remind you that America may run out of weapons to give. This is helpful because now you know you can stop listening to them. Let's just pose that idea in isolation:
America is running out of weapons.
Batshit.
posted by adept256 at 3:19 PM on December 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is a good point to make because when someone mentions $$$ billion of military aid, they're not talking about cash money - that's the $$$ equivalent worth of weapons and munitions. 4000 stinger missiles from the 80s are worth money, but it's not upfront. That's from the stockpile, already paid for. It actually costs a lot to store and maintain a stockpile. Selling this stuff has problems, disposing of this stuff has problems. Giving it away is a solution.
There are helpful people that will remind you that America may run out of weapons to give. This is helpful because now you know you can stop listening to them. Let's just pose that idea in isolation:
America is running out of weapons.
Batshit.
posted by adept256 at 3:19 PM on December 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, in Russia: Russian meat magnate who criticised Putin’s war dies after hotel fall.
In the US these include Trump, Musk, and Tulsi Gabbard, in my opinion.
posted by jamjam at 3:34 PM on December 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
A Russian sausage magnate who briefly criticised Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has died after falling from the third-floor window of a luxury hotel in India.Putin has to assassinate someone in a foreign country at least every month or two to keep his puppets dancing to his tune.
Pavel Antov was a member of Vladimir Putin’s United Russia Party and a multi-millionaire, having founded one of the country’s largest sausage makers. He was reportedly on a trip to celebrate his upcoming 66th birthday when he was found lying in a pool of blood outside the Hotel Sai International in Rayagada, in the southern state of Odisha.
In the US these include Trump, Musk, and Tulsi Gabbard, in my opinion.
posted by jamjam at 3:34 PM on December 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
I have good news about supporting Ukraine!
I did hear the place is infested with Homo sapiens.
posted by ocschwar at 3:34 PM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I did hear the place is infested with Homo sapiens.
posted by ocschwar at 3:34 PM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
America is running out of weapons.
Batshit.
Batshit indeed, this country is awash in arms. However, it is true that the current production rates of some modern armaments (like artillery shells) are not at the level that Ukraine is using them. So either they'll be cut off (unlikely) or production will be ramped up globally to meet the new demand along with some transitions to other systems. (This is also part of why the US is going to train tens of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers, to try and shift more of their tactics away from mass artillery.)
In the US these include Trump, Musk, and Tulsi Gabbard, in my opinion.
All of whom are going to have a point in the future when their usefulness will taper off and they'll have to start watching out for open windows, since knowing too much is clearly dangerous.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:09 PM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Batshit.
Batshit indeed, this country is awash in arms. However, it is true that the current production rates of some modern armaments (like artillery shells) are not at the level that Ukraine is using them. So either they'll be cut off (unlikely) or production will be ramped up globally to meet the new demand along with some transitions to other systems. (This is also part of why the US is going to train tens of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers, to try and shift more of their tactics away from mass artillery.)
In the US these include Trump, Musk, and Tulsi Gabbard, in my opinion.
All of whom are going to have a point in the future when their usefulness will taper off and they'll have to start watching out for open windows, since knowing too much is clearly dangerous.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:09 PM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
A Russian sausage magnate who briefly criticised Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has died after falling from the third-floor window of a luxury hotel in India.
I'd imagine that Russian police have made inquiries into the whereabouts of Abe Frohman.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:51 PM on December 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'd imagine that Russian police have made inquiries into the whereabouts of Abe Frohman.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:51 PM on December 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
This propaganda is designed for the West. Of course it uses the same action hero patterning as Western propaganda.
Watching Ukrainian PR absolutely nailing the multiple audiences for their propaganda, which absolutely HAS to acknowledge the bias and the ignorance of the audience has been wild for me personally. The subjects I'm teaching have touched on numerous aspects of this - fascist propaganda, MIC and Hollywood, celebrity culture, all that - and part of the reason this is as contentious as it is? That almost satirical element absolutely reads the audience bias and ignorance enough to reveal it if you think. And that's unsettling. The PR work because we are embedded in a media culture saturated with MIC in a way many other entertainment cultures aren't - almost entirely from US sources as well. But it's never acknowledged as blatantly in media culture - even critical media culture - as it is in Ukranian media releases to the West now.
Because yeah, in this case there's some pretty clear cut sides to take when it comes to peace, and humanity, and so on. But it makes it really clear that it works when you do it right. And none of us like being susceptible to it. The protestations of Ukraine being the hero, or that the PR is immoral, are a function of that discomfort.
You can't make a war film that doesn't glorify war. Russia probably comes closest to be honest. Which adds a whole different layer to this - Russia fails the PR front because the attitude to the West doesn't allow for the depth of understanding you need for good PR, or good satire. Which is because of fascism and dictatorship. Which brings us back to: what tools are acceptable for survival?
posted by geek anachronism at 7:24 PM on December 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
Watching Ukrainian PR absolutely nailing the multiple audiences for their propaganda, which absolutely HAS to acknowledge the bias and the ignorance of the audience has been wild for me personally. The subjects I'm teaching have touched on numerous aspects of this - fascist propaganda, MIC and Hollywood, celebrity culture, all that - and part of the reason this is as contentious as it is? That almost satirical element absolutely reads the audience bias and ignorance enough to reveal it if you think. And that's unsettling. The PR work because we are embedded in a media culture saturated with MIC in a way many other entertainment cultures aren't - almost entirely from US sources as well. But it's never acknowledged as blatantly in media culture - even critical media culture - as it is in Ukranian media releases to the West now.
Because yeah, in this case there's some pretty clear cut sides to take when it comes to peace, and humanity, and so on. But it makes it really clear that it works when you do it right. And none of us like being susceptible to it. The protestations of Ukraine being the hero, or that the PR is immoral, are a function of that discomfort.
You can't make a war film that doesn't glorify war. Russia probably comes closest to be honest. Which adds a whole different layer to this - Russia fails the PR front because the attitude to the West doesn't allow for the depth of understanding you need for good PR, or good satire. Which is because of fascism and dictatorship. Which brings us back to: what tools are acceptable for survival?
posted by geek anachronism at 7:24 PM on December 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
So yes, I will say this openly: cheering on violence, let alone organized warfare, is wrong. Supporting the victim - yes. Doing all we can to bring the warring parties to the diplomacy table - yes. But cheering - no. It's irrelevant to me what they want us to do - I will not participate in that.
I'm sorry, but not only can I not support your position, but I find it to be morally fraught. As several other posters have pointed out, people have a right to defend themselves, and we sadly live in a world where si vis pacem, para bellum remains sound advice, as much as we might wish it not be. And thus I will "cheer on" victims defending themselves against their abusers (and let me just say that I detest the word "bully", as it's solely an euphemism meant to hide the truth of what is actually happening) even if they have to resort to violence, because the alternative is to tell them that they have to defend themselves in an "acceptable" manner - an argument that is routinely used to disempower the dispossessed and render them further vulnerable.
(And let me just say that the way the school treated you after you defended yourself was reprehensible, especially the principal demanding an apology from you for their failure to keep you safe. It's also an example of my point above - the school administration punished you for their failure, to deflect blame - and in doing so told other victims that they were not allowed to defend themselves.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:26 PM on December 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
I'm sorry, but not only can I not support your position, but I find it to be morally fraught. As several other posters have pointed out, people have a right to defend themselves, and we sadly live in a world where si vis pacem, para bellum remains sound advice, as much as we might wish it not be. And thus I will "cheer on" victims defending themselves against their abusers (and let me just say that I detest the word "bully", as it's solely an euphemism meant to hide the truth of what is actually happening) even if they have to resort to violence, because the alternative is to tell them that they have to defend themselves in an "acceptable" manner - an argument that is routinely used to disempower the dispossessed and render them further vulnerable.
(And let me just say that the way the school treated you after you defended yourself was reprehensible, especially the principal demanding an apology from you for their failure to keep you safe. It's also an example of my point above - the school administration punished you for their failure, to deflect blame - and in doing so told other victims that they were not allowed to defend themselves.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:26 PM on December 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
Russia commits war crimes and crimes against civilians and humanity as their default way of waging war. At this point Russia is slaughtering it's own people in a stupid useless war. But they are also continuing to inflict horrid crimes up to and including genocide against the Ukraine people. I don't want anyone to fight or die in this war. Or any wars. But if Ukraine crushing every single armed invader is what it takes to stop the war... That's the lesser evil. And that sucks, while still being unpleasantly true.
posted by Jacen at 7:56 PM on December 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 7:56 PM on December 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
I don't like war. All the more reason to want to see the perpetrator of a war of aggression get smacked - their failure might give pause in future. The alternative lesson is the same as the one learned in Crimea - might makes right, invasions and genocides of the less powerful is a good idea. I don't like that lesson. I prefer the one that happens to align with the jingoistic propaganda this time - that wars of aggression will see you militarily humiliated and are a bad idea.
posted by Dysk at 8:14 PM on December 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 8:14 PM on December 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
" There's no heroes."
This is an utterly obscene thing to say. There are heroes all over Ukraine -- from the soldiers who liberated half the recently occupied land and freed them from the torture and murder chambers that the Russians set up in every fucking village and town, to the volunteers who go into towns under siege to bring them food and drive civilians out despite knowing that the Russians will eagerly kill them if they catch them on the roads, to the railway and utility workers who fight to keep the country moving and lit despite Russia's intent to destroy their entire infrastructure.
You know, once upon the time the Western left knew the value of a fight. They didn't say "well, this rebellion might not succeed, best we accept living under the rule of priests and kings forever." They didn't say violence is so terrible, those resisting fascism with weapons are just as bad as the fascists, they went in volunteer battalions to try to aid them.
posted by tavella at 11:17 PM on December 27, 2022 [42 favorites]
This is an utterly obscene thing to say. There are heroes all over Ukraine -- from the soldiers who liberated half the recently occupied land and freed them from the torture and murder chambers that the Russians set up in every fucking village and town, to the volunteers who go into towns under siege to bring them food and drive civilians out despite knowing that the Russians will eagerly kill them if they catch them on the roads, to the railway and utility workers who fight to keep the country moving and lit despite Russia's intent to destroy their entire infrastructure.
You know, once upon the time the Western left knew the value of a fight. They didn't say "well, this rebellion might not succeed, best we accept living under the rule of priests and kings forever." They didn't say violence is so terrible, those resisting fascism with weapons are just as bad as the fascists, they went in volunteer battalions to try to aid them.
posted by tavella at 11:17 PM on December 27, 2022 [42 favorites]
And then they attacked Ukraine and the theoretical threat they posed became an actual one. And, for a couple months, we had to make sure our ducks were in order in case we had to leave.
In the meantime, anything celebrating the demise of Putin and his army, I will celebrate alongside. Not the defense contractors, or the arms dealers but the use of their weapons against Putin.
I support the military and financial aid for Ukraine, but the cheering in parliament when they decided on it frightened me a bit. Maybe that’s my German historical trauma; I would have preferred if it had been a more somber occasion. That we became a party in another war reluctantly, because it was necessary, rather than with enthusiasm. And I disagree that the Russian army has shown itself to be a credible threat. To me the war has shown, that it’s conventional army probably has not been on a level with NATO for a long time.
This propaganda is designed for the West. Of course it uses the same action hero patterning as Western propaganda.
If this is the propaganda that works, I don’t begrudge Ukraine using it, I just wish this wasn’t the propaganda that worked.
This is the kind of story we all enjoy.
“enjoy” is not a word I would use about a story of real people killing real people. I feel a deep sadness, that there is again war in Europe. So I hope for an end to it, an end to the senseless killing of civilians and soldiers, a restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and an end to the Russian regime. Hopefully with a path to the future for the Russians as well.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 2:49 AM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
In the meantime, anything celebrating the demise of Putin and his army, I will celebrate alongside. Not the defense contractors, or the arms dealers but the use of their weapons against Putin.
I support the military and financial aid for Ukraine, but the cheering in parliament when they decided on it frightened me a bit. Maybe that’s my German historical trauma; I would have preferred if it had been a more somber occasion. That we became a party in another war reluctantly, because it was necessary, rather than with enthusiasm. And I disagree that the Russian army has shown itself to be a credible threat. To me the war has shown, that it’s conventional army probably has not been on a level with NATO for a long time.
This propaganda is designed for the West. Of course it uses the same action hero patterning as Western propaganda.
If this is the propaganda that works, I don’t begrudge Ukraine using it, I just wish this wasn’t the propaganda that worked.
This is the kind of story we all enjoy.
“enjoy” is not a word I would use about a story of real people killing real people. I feel a deep sadness, that there is again war in Europe. So I hope for an end to it, an end to the senseless killing of civilians and soldiers, a restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and an end to the Russian regime. Hopefully with a path to the future for the Russians as well.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 2:49 AM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
While I generally agree with the notion that warmongering is bad and propaganda that reduces international conflict to the level of a sports match or an action movie is childish: I think that trying to lecture the army of a country about this at a time when that country is actively being invaded is also pretty damn insensitive.
After the war is over and they've had a chance to come out of crisis mode, then maybe we can talk to them about how this was just "sending innocent people into the meatgrinder of war". And hell, maybe they will say that "we know, we realized that two months ago." But right now they are focused on keeping the morale up amongst their own people - both those fighting and those on the home front - and I think they can be forgiven some simplistic memes at this point and under those conditions, don't you?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:01 AM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
After the war is over and they've had a chance to come out of crisis mode, then maybe we can talk to them about how this was just "sending innocent people into the meatgrinder of war". And hell, maybe they will say that "we know, we realized that two months ago." But right now they are focused on keeping the morale up amongst their own people - both those fighting and those on the home front - and I think they can be forgiven some simplistic memes at this point and under those conditions, don't you?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:01 AM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's certainly not my intent to lecture Ukrainians. They are the victims of invasion and genocide. They do what they can and I won't judge them for it.
I'm talking about my feelings and German politics to mostly non-Ukrainians.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 7:01 AM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm talking about my feelings and German politics to mostly non-Ukrainians.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 7:01 AM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is the kind of story we all enjoy.
Part of the so-called enjoyment is that people want to see the "just deserts", or karmic retribution, or the realization of the "F*** Around and Find Out" saying. In a just world, bad things should happen to bad people.
We're surrounded by bad people every single day in our unjust world, so we desperately want to see the "right thing" happen, even if we also want the bad person or the bad act never to happen in the first place. Because an unpunished bad actor goes on to do more bad things. Also see the popularity of the Herman Cain Award, or the various toxic JusticeServed-like subreddits.
posted by meowzilla at 7:24 AM on December 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
Part of the so-called enjoyment is that people want to see the "just deserts", or karmic retribution, or the realization of the "F*** Around and Find Out" saying. In a just world, bad things should happen to bad people.
We're surrounded by bad people every single day in our unjust world, so we desperately want to see the "right thing" happen, even if we also want the bad person or the bad act never to happen in the first place. Because an unpunished bad actor goes on to do more bad things. Also see the popularity of the Herman Cain Award, or the various toxic JusticeServed-like subreddits.
posted by meowzilla at 7:24 AM on December 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
But it astonishes me, the degree to which long time mefites are willing to change their tune for a fashionable war.
What a terribly unfair and inaccurate characterization. I don't think this war is fashionable as much as just, from the perspective of Ukrainians. My whole life, the US has engaged in morally dubious-to-awful war-making around the world, and this time it's clearly on the side of victims against invading aggressors, the first time in a long time that there is real moral clarity about where US military aid is going, and support of that is dismissed as "fashionable"? What an insult to people's moral judgment, and what disregard for the actual state of the world. Fascists are now militarily mobilizing, if now isn't the time to literally fight back, when is it time?
Violence is awful in any form, and if we lived in an ideal world, I would rather "be on the side of humanity" and always against violence; but we live in this world, where violent, murderous thugs go and murder thousands and millions of people, and that requires actual violence to fight back against and to stop, to restore peace and non-violence. Sometimes fighting is being on the side of humanity.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:53 AM on December 28, 2022 [27 favorites]
What a terribly unfair and inaccurate characterization. I don't think this war is fashionable as much as just, from the perspective of Ukrainians. My whole life, the US has engaged in morally dubious-to-awful war-making around the world, and this time it's clearly on the side of victims against invading aggressors, the first time in a long time that there is real moral clarity about where US military aid is going, and support of that is dismissed as "fashionable"? What an insult to people's moral judgment, and what disregard for the actual state of the world. Fascists are now militarily mobilizing, if now isn't the time to literally fight back, when is it time?
Violence is awful in any form, and if we lived in an ideal world, I would rather "be on the side of humanity" and always against violence; but we live in this world, where violent, murderous thugs go and murder thousands and millions of people, and that requires actual violence to fight back against and to stop, to restore peace and non-violence. Sometimes fighting is being on the side of humanity.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:53 AM on December 28, 2022 [27 favorites]
But it astonishes me, the degree to which long time mefites are willing to change their tune for a fashionable war.
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
John Maynard Keynes.
posted by ocschwar at 8:01 AM on December 28, 2022 [25 favorites]
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
John Maynard Keynes.
posted by ocschwar at 8:01 AM on December 28, 2022 [25 favorites]
I think it's important to keep in mind how this war affects people, all people and to know that while the front line needs support, to understand the humanity of everyone caught up. Ukraine is fighting for it's existence. Lavrov just yesterday reiterated that the only Ukraine the Putin regime will allows to exist is as a "demilitarized and denazified" client state of the new Russian empire. Russia has in this conflict been using the ethnic cleansing techniques on captured areas to remove the pre-war populations to inhospitable camps and bring in ethnic Russians.
There are, of course, Russians heroes too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA_ltzVzIYY
This young Russian woman is herself a displaced person---she fled to Georgia just following the "mobilization" order, as the only effective protest she could make. She's now organizing aid for displaced Ukrainians who have fled through Russia. She has transformed a fairly prosaic slice-of-life video diary channel into an outlet for what Russians can do who object to this horror. Yes, what's she's doing is propaganda too, but equally important to the kind linked int he post.
It's a horrible war begin fought by just about the worst kind of antagonist, an imperial nationalist elite, using all the awful lessons of their long and bloody history. The worst thing we can do is lose hope and let them succeed by not trying. If this is what is need to keep people onside with continuing to help Ukraine, I'm not going to call it problematic. However I would also encourage people to seek out other stories and understand the broader context of how this war is affecting everyone, including some that might be seen as "enemies".
posted by bonehead at 9:00 AM on December 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
There are, of course, Russians heroes too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA_ltzVzIYY
This young Russian woman is herself a displaced person---she fled to Georgia just following the "mobilization" order, as the only effective protest she could make. She's now organizing aid for displaced Ukrainians who have fled through Russia. She has transformed a fairly prosaic slice-of-life video diary channel into an outlet for what Russians can do who object to this horror. Yes, what's she's doing is propaganda too, but equally important to the kind linked int he post.
It's a horrible war begin fought by just about the worst kind of antagonist, an imperial nationalist elite, using all the awful lessons of their long and bloody history. The worst thing we can do is lose hope and let them succeed by not trying. If this is what is need to keep people onside with continuing to help Ukraine, I'm not going to call it problematic. However I would also encourage people to seek out other stories and understand the broader context of how this war is affecting everyone, including some that might be seen as "enemies".
posted by bonehead at 9:00 AM on December 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
Though it was nice to see the leader of the free world visit Biden.
posted by adept256 at 11:15 AM on December 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 11:15 AM on December 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
In reading the comments, I am reminded of Paul Fussell’s responding to Michael Walzer's response to Fussell’s essay Thank God for the Atom Bomb. To Walzer’s objections, Fussell wrote:
“I think we’re never going to agree, for our disagreement is one between sensibilities. I’d designate them as, on the one hand, the ironic and ambiguous (or even the tragic, if you like), and on the other, the certain. The one complicates problems, leaving them messier than before and making one feel terrible. The other solves problems and cleans up the place, making you feel tidy and satisfied. I’d call the one sensibility the literary-artistic-historical; I’d call the other the social-scientific-political. To expect them to agree, or even to perceive the same data, would be expecting too much.”
Fussell was combat soldier in Europe who, absent the bomb, would likely have been sent to invade Japan. Walzer, author of Just and Unjust Wars, so far as I can tell, never served in the military.
posted by BWA at 12:26 PM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
“I think we’re never going to agree, for our disagreement is one between sensibilities. I’d designate them as, on the one hand, the ironic and ambiguous (or even the tragic, if you like), and on the other, the certain. The one complicates problems, leaving them messier than before and making one feel terrible. The other solves problems and cleans up the place, making you feel tidy and satisfied. I’d call the one sensibility the literary-artistic-historical; I’d call the other the social-scientific-political. To expect them to agree, or even to perceive the same data, would be expecting too much.”
Fussell was combat soldier in Europe who, absent the bomb, would likely have been sent to invade Japan. Walzer, author of Just and Unjust Wars, so far as I can tell, never served in the military.
posted by BWA at 12:26 PM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
If you live in the USA and many other countries, I think you should at least try and control your bloodlust because we WERE Russia - an aggressive invader nation - in Iraq and Afghanistan. You can dehumanize the Russian troops all you want, but the fact of the matter is the US and it’s partners were aggressor nations, those troops killed and tortured and raped and executed civilians and prisoners of war because that’s what soldiers do. We are not morally superior to Russia.
posted by youthenrage at 1:38 PM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 1:38 PM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am not and will never be an apologist for the many and varied crimes the USA military and associated agencies has unquestionably committed. Yes, I think that any war crimes are equally horrendous, no matter the perpetrators. Justice should be served. But at the same time, there's a quantitative difference in the Russian method. All wars are cruel and terrible and unleashes and creates monsters... But the way Russia targets civilians and enacts genocidal policies is another layer of bad on top of the 'regular' terribleness of war.
posted by Jacen at 1:58 PM on December 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 1:58 PM on December 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
We are not morally superior to Russia.
we genuinely are. that is why people were shocked by many early reports, because we know how bad we are and russia is significantly worse. americans are used to ignoring things happening far away that are no worse than we've done ourselves. to shock an american with war crimes, boy. that takes some doing.
"bloodlust" is the only explanation for certain attitudes if you do not understand or do not believe that some people pay attention to a war not because they like it, but because they don't. being citizens of a nation that also engages in imperialist aggression confers on us certain obligations, or at least some of us think so.
believe it or don't, but not all bombastic outrage is an expression of pleasure. the rhetoric is very bad but the ethics are actually quite good.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:04 PM on December 28, 2022 [20 favorites]
we genuinely are. that is why people were shocked by many early reports, because we know how bad we are and russia is significantly worse. americans are used to ignoring things happening far away that are no worse than we've done ourselves. to shock an american with war crimes, boy. that takes some doing.
"bloodlust" is the only explanation for certain attitudes if you do not understand or do not believe that some people pay attention to a war not because they like it, but because they don't. being citizens of a nation that also engages in imperialist aggression confers on us certain obligations, or at least some of us think so.
believe it or don't, but not all bombastic outrage is an expression of pleasure. the rhetoric is very bad but the ethics are actually quite good.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:04 PM on December 28, 2022 [20 favorites]
I can't remember exactly what the assault was, but let's say it was my binder getting thrown in a puddle and getting punched. I do remember it was out of nowhere. So, I punched back -
OK, getting abused is awful (been there!) and snapping because they pushed you too far SUCKS.
But imagine instead of throwing your binder, the abuser was a full grown adult man who had killed your family and set your house on fire and then was walking next door to do the same to your neighbors. I mean, nobody would necessarily blame you for being so devastated by your losses that you did nothing, and yeah it would have been awesome to have been able to convince the abuser not to do murder in the first place.
None-the-less, you have a trolley problem here now. You can do nothing and the neighbors (and who knows how many other people) are going to get killed or you can punch him in the face and maybe stop his rampage with just a broken nose. Or, if you had to, hurt him worse to save others.
This invasion and attempted genocide are awful, but if somebody doesn't try to stop it, the way it comes to an end is peace built over the bodies of a million butchered Ukrainians - with the promise of future abuse for Ukraine's neighbors.
Ukraine doesn't, I imagine, much relish having to be at war, but the alternative is so much worse for everyone except the abusive imperial power.
Tl;dr- I get your analogy and I'm genuinely sorry you had that experience, but this is a whole different category of abuse.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:27 PM on December 28, 2022 [14 favorites]
OK, getting abused is awful (been there!) and snapping because they pushed you too far SUCKS.
But imagine instead of throwing your binder, the abuser was a full grown adult man who had killed your family and set your house on fire and then was walking next door to do the same to your neighbors. I mean, nobody would necessarily blame you for being so devastated by your losses that you did nothing, and yeah it would have been awesome to have been able to convince the abuser not to do murder in the first place.
None-the-less, you have a trolley problem here now. You can do nothing and the neighbors (and who knows how many other people) are going to get killed or you can punch him in the face and maybe stop his rampage with just a broken nose. Or, if you had to, hurt him worse to save others.
This invasion and attempted genocide are awful, but if somebody doesn't try to stop it, the way it comes to an end is peace built over the bodies of a million butchered Ukrainians - with the promise of future abuse for Ukraine's neighbors.
Ukraine doesn't, I imagine, much relish having to be at war, but the alternative is so much worse for everyone except the abusive imperial power.
Tl;dr- I get your analogy and I'm genuinely sorry you had that experience, but this is a whole different category of abuse.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:27 PM on December 28, 2022 [14 favorites]
"If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them."
-Jack Handy
posted by clavdivs at 9:02 PM on December 28, 2022 [15 favorites]
-Jack Handy
posted by clavdivs at 9:02 PM on December 28, 2022 [15 favorites]
Something that sticks in my mind was a report from a few months into the war, where Ukrainian provincial representatives are talking about the lines of communication they've newly established to ensure Kyiv knows what people are needing and the citizens know how they can help other Ukrainians. Like, that's the democratic ideal, right? The public servant instead of the power trip. A lot of Ukrainian propaganda has been constructed an image of a state that has 'European' 'democratic' ideals, improbably becoming more so in the pressure of war.
Maybe this makes me a smart mark, where "seeing through it" means I'm still buying that this is what they want me to believe. Zelenskiy, prior to the war, wasn't doing a great job as president, with a history of regular coups. On the other hand, a lot of that history has been Ukraine trying to have closer ties to Europe and having to push away from Russia by force, such as the Euromaidan uprising. I honestly don't know what is in Ukraine's heart, and what will exist on the other side of the winter; I guess I choose to believe that Ukraine's propaganda is shaping itself as well. It helps that the other side is Putin's Russia. They've been a model and and funder for the far-right across the world. When the war came, though, the old crypto-fascist line about Strong Men creating Strong Nations ended up being dramatically exposed as the horseshit the left kept saying it was.
I do not want the war to continue. I think Ukraine should be safe from Russia; I think they should control their borders; I'm ambivalent about the Crimean peninsula at this point. I think Russians deserve better than Putin; I think Putin should remove his troops from Ukraine and allow them to join the EU and NATO if they so choose; I think he should recognise he's been the problem all along. I do not think Putin will do this. I think he is working to corrupt democracy so that his leadership looks like the best we could hope for. I do not see any more effective choice than prosecuting the war Putin has waged.
I don't cheer for the war, I think. I cheer for the world we might have on the other side of it.
If you live in the USA and many other countries, I think you should at least try and control your bloodlust because we WERE Russia - an aggressive invader nation - in Iraq and Afghanistan. You can dehumanize the Russian troops all you want, but the fact of the matter is the US and it’s partners were aggressor nations, those troops killed and tortured and raped and executed civilians and prisoners of war because that’s what soldiers do.
Part of Australia's military operational strategy was borne out of the disgraceful, and ultimately ineffective, way they saw America behave in Vietnam. I'm not immediately willing to accept that every country behaves as badly as America does when it invades; Australia is largely aware that at least some of its troops committed war crimes, it was one of the big news stories of the year. Speaking for the nation, we are, I think, Not Fans.
posted by Merus at 12:22 AM on December 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Maybe this makes me a smart mark, where "seeing through it" means I'm still buying that this is what they want me to believe. Zelenskiy, prior to the war, wasn't doing a great job as president, with a history of regular coups. On the other hand, a lot of that history has been Ukraine trying to have closer ties to Europe and having to push away from Russia by force, such as the Euromaidan uprising. I honestly don't know what is in Ukraine's heart, and what will exist on the other side of the winter; I guess I choose to believe that Ukraine's propaganda is shaping itself as well. It helps that the other side is Putin's Russia. They've been a model and and funder for the far-right across the world. When the war came, though, the old crypto-fascist line about Strong Men creating Strong Nations ended up being dramatically exposed as the horseshit the left kept saying it was.
I do not want the war to continue. I think Ukraine should be safe from Russia; I think they should control their borders; I'm ambivalent about the Crimean peninsula at this point. I think Russians deserve better than Putin; I think Putin should remove his troops from Ukraine and allow them to join the EU and NATO if they so choose; I think he should recognise he's been the problem all along. I do not think Putin will do this. I think he is working to corrupt democracy so that his leadership looks like the best we could hope for. I do not see any more effective choice than prosecuting the war Putin has waged.
I don't cheer for the war, I think. I cheer for the world we might have on the other side of it.
If you live in the USA and many other countries, I think you should at least try and control your bloodlust because we WERE Russia - an aggressive invader nation - in Iraq and Afghanistan. You can dehumanize the Russian troops all you want, but the fact of the matter is the US and it’s partners were aggressor nations, those troops killed and tortured and raped and executed civilians and prisoners of war because that’s what soldiers do.
Part of Australia's military operational strategy was borne out of the disgraceful, and ultimately ineffective, way they saw America behave in Vietnam. I'm not immediately willing to accept that every country behaves as badly as America does when it invades; Australia is largely aware that at least some of its troops committed war crimes, it was one of the big news stories of the year. Speaking for the nation, we are, I think, Not Fans.
posted by Merus at 12:22 AM on December 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Australia has a very different ethos of war in general, from well before Vietnam. Our major military holiday is on the anniversary of the Gallipoli landing. The one immortalised in song as "we were butchered like lambs at the slaughter". You know. An enormous loss, for everyone, and significant for Australia and NZ in particular given the numbers.
There is very little to do in Australian military consciousness outside the armed forces in terms of 'war is a goddamn waste'. That's embedded in much of our celebrations, and right into schooling as well. But war crimes? Those are done by others. We tried to make a hero out of Breaker Morant. We refuse responsibilty, that's all on those who sent us or dragged us in. On them infecting our good boys with evil.
I've known enough Aussie military types, lived close enough to bases, to know some of em don't need help to get to war crimes. I've known enough survivors of war, and of the military, to know it isn't always the enemy who gets fucked over. We might not buy the nationalist propaganda the same way, or see war and the military the same way, but we have the exact same problems because we have the exact same fertile ground for it and eagerly follow into disaster.
And yeah we just had a big court case, sure. But it only got there because media said it first and the dumb bastard sued and pulled a Streisand Effect on himself.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:56 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
There is very little to do in Australian military consciousness outside the armed forces in terms of 'war is a goddamn waste'. That's embedded in much of our celebrations, and right into schooling as well. But war crimes? Those are done by others. We tried to make a hero out of Breaker Morant. We refuse responsibilty, that's all on those who sent us or dragged us in. On them infecting our good boys with evil.
I've known enough Aussie military types, lived close enough to bases, to know some of em don't need help to get to war crimes. I've known enough survivors of war, and of the military, to know it isn't always the enemy who gets fucked over. We might not buy the nationalist propaganda the same way, or see war and the military the same way, but we have the exact same problems because we have the exact same fertile ground for it and eagerly follow into disaster.
And yeah we just had a big court case, sure. But it only got there because media said it first and the dumb bastard sued and pulled a Streisand Effect on himself.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:56 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
In every single thread about the war in Ukraine there has been someone who thinks they have the moral high ground but ends up supporting the aggressors. Every. Single. One.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:19 AM on December 29, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:19 AM on December 29, 2022 [16 favorites]
When the war started, my second or third thought was that this is going to be a hard time for pacifists. I wasn't thinking about prejudice against them, I was thinking that there was a plausibly morally justified war.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:01 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:01 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
We refuse responsibilty, that's all on those who sent us or dragged us in. On them infecting our good boys with evil
"No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier."
-Tim. 2.4
The United States has named only one naval ship after another country or capital, The U.S.S. Canberra.
"One of the ship's propellers was placed on display at the Los Angeles Maritime Museum.The ship's bell was kept in storage, and despite US law preventing the possession of naval artefacts by other nations, a campaign led to the bell being presented to Australian Prime Minister John Howard by US President George W. Bush on 10 September 2001, as commemoration for the 50 years of the ANZUS treaty.The 250-pound (110 kg) bell was placed on display in the USA Gallery of the Australian National Maritime Museum."
posted by clavdivs at 8:04 PM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
"No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier."
-Tim. 2.4
The United States has named only one naval ship after another country or capital, The U.S.S. Canberra.
"One of the ship's propellers was placed on display at the Los Angeles Maritime Museum.The ship's bell was kept in storage, and despite US law preventing the possession of naval artefacts by other nations, a campaign led to the bell being presented to Australian Prime Minister John Howard by US President George W. Bush on 10 September 2001, as commemoration for the 50 years of the ANZUS treaty.The 250-pound (110 kg) bell was placed on display in the USA Gallery of the Australian National Maritime Museum."
posted by clavdivs at 8:04 PM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm waiting for the sequel to this where the Ukrainians have Leopard 2 tanks.
So, I'm sending out a new Resistbot message. If you'd also like to send this to your Congresspeople and the President text "SIGN PUMWTP" to 50409.
So, I'm sending out a new Resistbot message. If you'd also like to send this to your Congresspeople and the President text "SIGN PUMWTP" to 50409.
Please provide Ukraine with M1 Abrams tanks as soon as possible!posted by Reverend John at 10:50 AM on January 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Please send M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine as soon as possible. Ukraine needs powerful modern tanks to resist and fight back against the Russian invasion of their country. In addition to the M1 directly providing Ukraine with increased capabilities, by providing these tanks to Ukraine we can also eliminate the excuses that Germany is using to avoid approving sending Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. While it is sometimes argued that the M1 Abrams is not ideally suited to Ukraine’s needs, by providing them we can clear the way for Ukraine to receive the Leopard 2 tanks which would give them a great boost. The Ukrainians can decide how best to use the M1 Abrams and Leopards if they receive them both, but will be in a worse position if they receive neither. Therefore it is crucial that we do our part to give Ukraine the weapons they need.
I also would urge you to approve sending MQ-9 Reaper drones to Ukraine to increase their chances of succeeding in defeating the Russian invasion of their country.
Defending Ukraine is in the interest of the United States. A free, democratic, pro-Western Ukraine will be a valuable ally against authoritarian states like Russia who would seek to compromise our country after conquering Ukraine.
Thank you for your attention
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edit:
Weird, I refreshed a third time and I can see it. Hmm.
posted by rouftop at 4:28 AM on December 27, 2022 [1 favorite]