it’s always worth pausing when we’re told “X University” “banned” Y
December 30, 2022 9:45 AM Subscribe
I don’t know if you heard, but Stanford University banned the word “Americans” (SL Substack from Stanford professor Adrian Daub).
I am notorious for getting myself signed up for way too university mailing lists ...I also don’t delete emails. In those 29,000 emails [in Daub's inbox], the acronym “EHLI” or “elimination of harmful language” doesn’t appear once. If Stanford “announced” a policy “banning” use of the word “American”, surely it wouldn’t forget to tell its tenured faculty members.
Daub's new book Cancel Culture Transfer looks fascinating and they are sharing some of the analyses on Substack (the actual book is available only in German currently).posted by spamandkimchi at 10:02 AM on December 30, 2022 [27 favorites]
So, the Wall Street Journal has a conservative bias and goes all alarmist in an article?
Color me surprised. I’d cancel my subscription if I had one.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:16 AM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
Color me surprised. I’d cancel my subscription if I had one.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:16 AM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is a great piece. I only wish my local anti-intellectuals could comprehend it.
posted by armeowda at 10:26 AM on December 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by armeowda at 10:26 AM on December 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
Like an archaic torso of Apollo this story stared me down during a week I had planned to use for some relaxing and decompressing and said: “you really should change your life.”
A Rilke joke in the first paragraph! I like this guy's style.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:54 AM on December 30, 2022 [14 favorites]
A Rilke joke in the first paragraph! I like this guy's style.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:54 AM on December 30, 2022 [14 favorites]
Something I do know from writing International Relations/ History papers at SJSU: the reason for using 'US Citizen' instead of 'American' is because Brazilians are American. Mexicans are American. There are presently 36 sovereign American nations, from Argentina to Canada. Citizens of the USA might like to think they're the only Americans, but any citizen of a nation in the Western hemisphere is an American. So it's a style and specificity thing, which can be important in a paper about diplomatic relations.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:00 AM on December 30, 2022 [46 favorites]
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:00 AM on December 30, 2022 [46 favorites]
I was somewhat involved with a large-ish software developer that developed and implemented a plan very similar to this. There was some internal grumbling about it, mostly around implementation details related to renaming public-facing things. I haven't seen any discussion about the changes online so I guess the roll out went well. My understanding is that this is happening at many other software companies, but very few of those documents are actually public. It's certainly very good that master-slave terminology is being removed from common usage in software, as it's always been a terrible way to talk about things.
Considering that the goal of plans like this are to make people from all backgrounds feel more comfortable using software and websites, they do need to be treated like politically sensitive documents. Anyone writing documents related to any social justice issue needs to assume someone will leak it to the right wing press out of context. That's just the world we live in right now.
The WSJ and many other media sites have taken this wildly out of context, but the style of the original document and website does somewhat encourage this confusion. "Eliminate" is an extremely strong word to use in this context and definitely implies censorship (I think our document used Avoid instead). I suspect it was chosen to ensure people actually paid attention, but it can easily backfire by increasing defensiveness for anyone reading it. Similarly naming something a Statement of Solidarity and Commitment to Action is a fairly explicit political framing that could easily be taken out of context.
posted by JZig at 11:04 AM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
Considering that the goal of plans like this are to make people from all backgrounds feel more comfortable using software and websites, they do need to be treated like politically sensitive documents. Anyone writing documents related to any social justice issue needs to assume someone will leak it to the right wing press out of context. That's just the world we live in right now.
The WSJ and many other media sites have taken this wildly out of context, but the style of the original document and website does somewhat encourage this confusion. "Eliminate" is an extremely strong word to use in this context and definitely implies censorship (I think our document used Avoid instead). I suspect it was chosen to ensure people actually paid attention, but it can easily backfire by increasing defensiveness for anyone reading it. Similarly naming something a Statement of Solidarity and Commitment to Action is a fairly explicit political framing that could easily be taken out of context.
posted by JZig at 11:04 AM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
I accidentally read something recently from someone who didn't like the EHLI list (they write a blog that's normally about an unrelated niche interest, and deleted the post after it got some pushback), and they observed that the US is the only country in the Americas that has the word 'America' in its name, which, while currently accurate, seems to ignore the history of Mexico (pka América Septentrional, or, in English, Northern America) and the Federal Republic of Central America in a way that seems extremely... American.
posted by box at 11:16 AM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by box at 11:16 AM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I haven't finished the article, but yeah, if they'd just called this a style guide it would be glaringly obvious there's nothing to froth about. As it is, it's obvious there's nothing to froth about, but there's that tiny little hook in the scary sounding name to let the usual suspects get their undies in a bunch.
posted by Ickster at 11:16 AM on December 30, 2022
posted by Ickster at 11:16 AM on December 30, 2022
I'm now extra interested/intrigued in how this story became global (as how cancel culture became a German obsession). From Daub's twitter:
German interviewers: so, your book is partly about how Germans really went in on cancel culture discourse to a greater extent than the American public. Do you really think that’s true?posted by spamandkimchi at 11:19 AM on December 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
German smoothie company: Hold my CANCEL CULTURE SMOOTHIE
Hahahaha. The idea that Stanford has banned the use of the word "master" might come as a surprise to the many, many people who have master's degrees from that vaunted institution.
I think I can add some additional context, which is that during the heady days of BLM protests it became briefly stylish in tech companies to undertake well-meaning projects to remove racist-sounding language from codebases (including terms like master, slave, blacklist, and whitelist) as basically a way for people to feel like they were doing what they could to make minorities in the tech workforce feel more comfortable. This is super easy to do in a searchable codebase; it's a low-cost initiative that I think most people regarded as basically harmless "you're welcome here and we care how you feel when you're reading code, and it's not a big deal to understand these word substitutions when I'm reading or writing code" signaling. I'm dead certain someone came back from a summer internship at a big tech company and figured they'd try to lead a similar initiative at their student IT job.
posted by potrzebie at 11:28 AM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think I can add some additional context, which is that during the heady days of BLM protests it became briefly stylish in tech companies to undertake well-meaning projects to remove racist-sounding language from codebases (including terms like master, slave, blacklist, and whitelist) as basically a way for people to feel like they were doing what they could to make minorities in the tech workforce feel more comfortable. This is super easy to do in a searchable codebase; it's a low-cost initiative that I think most people regarded as basically harmless "you're welcome here and we care how you feel when you're reading code, and it's not a big deal to understand these word substitutions when I'm reading or writing code" signaling. I'm dead certain someone came back from a summer internship at a big tech company and figured they'd try to lead a similar initiative at their student IT job.
posted by potrzebie at 11:28 AM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
Citizens of the USA might like to think they're the only Americans, but any citizen of a nation in the Western hemisphere is an American.
But that's false, especially on the specificity argument.
The United States of America is the only nation with "America" as part of its name, due to the fact that, at the time of its founding, it was a union of all non-colony states in the Americas. Using American to refer to its citizens therefore refers specifically to them.
Whereas the official legal name of Mexico is Estados Unidos Mexicanos, the United States of Mexico. Therefore, using "US" to refer to the "USA" is not specific.
In conclusion, using "American" to refer to the only county in the world with "America" as part of its actual name, as opposed to "United States" which is part of the names of several countries, is the only specific and appropriate approach.
they observed that the US is the only country in the Americas that has the word 'America' in its name, which, while currently accurate, seems to ignore the history of Mexico (pka América Septentrional, or, in English, Northern America) and the Federal Republic of Central America in a way that seems extremely... American.
box
Yes, it's currently accurate, so that is how it should be used. If we were writing in 1825, that would be different, but we are talking about the world as it is today.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:38 AM on December 30, 2022 [12 favorites]
But that's false, especially on the specificity argument.
The United States of America is the only nation with "America" as part of its name, due to the fact that, at the time of its founding, it was a union of all non-colony states in the Americas. Using American to refer to its citizens therefore refers specifically to them.
Whereas the official legal name of Mexico is Estados Unidos Mexicanos, the United States of Mexico. Therefore, using "US" to refer to the "USA" is not specific.
In conclusion, using "American" to refer to the only county in the world with "America" as part of its actual name, as opposed to "United States" which is part of the names of several countries, is the only specific and appropriate approach.
they observed that the US is the only country in the Americas that has the word 'America' in its name, which, while currently accurate, seems to ignore the history of Mexico (pka América Septentrional, or, in English, Northern America) and the Federal Republic of Central America in a way that seems extremely... American.
box
Yes, it's currently accurate, so that is how it should be used. If we were writing in 1825, that would be different, but we are talking about the world as it is today.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:38 AM on December 30, 2022 [12 favorites]
Something I do know from writing International Relations/ History papers at SJSU: the reason for using 'US Citizen' instead of 'American' is because Brazilians are American. Mexicans are American. There are presently 36 sovereign American nations, from Argentina to Canada. Citizens of the USA might like to think they're the only Americans, but any citizen of a nation in the Western hemisphere is an American. So it's a style and specificity thing, which can be important in a paper about diplomatic relations.
Just do not ever call a Canadian an American even though it is technically true in the continental sense. Unless of course you want to troll them like the British do.
posted by srboisvert at 11:47 AM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Just do not ever call a Canadian an American even though it is technically true in the continental sense. Unless of course you want to troll them like the British do.
posted by srboisvert at 11:47 AM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Perhaps Miss Teen USA from South Carolina was avant la lettre with the use of "U.S. Americans" in her interview answer?
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:59 AM on December 30, 2022
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:59 AM on December 30, 2022
@Artifice_Eternity : could you explain the reference? I would love to be in on this allusion.
posted by dum spiro spero at 12:06 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by dum spiro spero at 12:06 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
" In conclusion, using "American" to refer to the only county in the world with "America" as part of its actual name, as opposed to "United States" which is part of the names of several countries, is the only specific and appropriate approach."
This is the kind of thing a citizen of the United States would write.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:14 PM on December 30, 2022 [23 favorites]
This is the kind of thing a citizen of the United States would write.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:14 PM on December 30, 2022 [23 favorites]
I disagree this counts as "cancel culture" per se. I've disliked saying "American" since well before "cancel culture". It's annoyingly imprecise.
We'd ideally rename the whole country using some nice Native American words. Kondiaronk is infinitely cooler than Amerigo Vespucci, and really captures the essence of the good you'd want to express, but he lived in Canada.
Mississippian maybe? Actual historical Mississippians disappeared before Europeans came. Appalachians maybe?
posted by jeffburdges at 12:17 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
We'd ideally rename the whole country using some nice Native American words. Kondiaronk is infinitely cooler than Amerigo Vespucci, and really captures the essence of the good you'd want to express, but he lived in Canada.
Mississippian maybe? Actual historical Mississippians disappeared before Europeans came. Appalachians maybe?
posted by jeffburdges at 12:17 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
any citizen of a nation in the Western hemisphere is an American.
There are a bunch of non-American countries that are partially or completely in the Western Hemisphere. Heck, most of the UK is west of Greenwich.
posted by aubilenon at 12:34 PM on December 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
There are a bunch of non-American countries that are partially or completely in the Western Hemisphere. Heck, most of the UK is west of Greenwich.
posted by aubilenon at 12:34 PM on December 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
The liberal inclination toward prescriptivist language is one of our most annoying tendencies. We often get it wrong (seems like people are slowly realizing how myopic “Latinx” is) and people plain don’t like being told how to talk. It’s alienating. I believe it’s a reflection of our obsession with process over results — missing the forest for the trees.
posted by TurnKey at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2022 [38 favorites]
posted by TurnKey at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2022 [38 favorites]
For me the "American => US citizen" shift made sense as adding specificity about *citizenship* being the important detail (in cases where citizenship is in fact the qualifying factor for a policy page at hand).
Can you be American in identity without holding citizenship? Possibly, arguably, I'm not sure that it matters as a matter of definition as much as it matters that there's room for ambiguity. (I'd say 'yes' personally)
But if you have a page about FAFSA student aid, for example, the clarity becomes important.
Moving away from the derail, I like how this piece breaks down this common pattern of telephone-game dishonesty. I've seen it happen all too often, but because there's so many moving parts by the time I try to explain "no, there isn't some high council that has decreed that 'brown-bag lunch' is a verboten term" I've already lost because to refute it requires more time, research, & attention-span than the other party cares to grant.
It's even worse with how insular/filter-bubble-y modern right-wing media is, where someone might dash off a reference to "laptop heroin condoms" and because I haven't kept up on the churning recitation of grievances I'd have to track back to figure out why they think that's the latest thing ruining America that I'm supposedly responsible for.
The latter case I'm not sure how to do more than write it off as a lost cause, where they live in a world where Joe Biden is a card-carrying Marxist and Seattle & Portland have been 100% burnt to the ground.
But the former is where a lot of that stuff creeps in, & it feels important to figure out how to tidily unwind these sorts of things to keep the latter from getting deeper footholds.
posted by CrystalDave at 12:38 PM on December 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
Can you be American in identity without holding citizenship? Possibly, arguably, I'm not sure that it matters as a matter of definition as much as it matters that there's room for ambiguity. (I'd say 'yes' personally)
But if you have a page about FAFSA student aid, for example, the clarity becomes important.
Moving away from the derail, I like how this piece breaks down this common pattern of telephone-game dishonesty. I've seen it happen all too often, but because there's so many moving parts by the time I try to explain "no, there isn't some high council that has decreed that 'brown-bag lunch' is a verboten term" I've already lost because to refute it requires more time, research, & attention-span than the other party cares to grant.
It's even worse with how insular/filter-bubble-y modern right-wing media is, where someone might dash off a reference to "laptop heroin condoms" and because I haven't kept up on the churning recitation of grievances I'd have to track back to figure out why they think that's the latest thing ruining America that I'm supposedly responsible for.
The latter case I'm not sure how to do more than write it off as a lost cause, where they live in a world where Joe Biden is a card-carrying Marxist and Seattle & Portland have been 100% burnt to the ground.
But the former is where a lot of that stuff creeps in, & it feels important to figure out how to tidily unwind these sorts of things to keep the latter from getting deeper footholds.
posted by CrystalDave at 12:38 PM on December 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
Interestingly “Canada” comes from the Huron-Iroquois word “kanata” for “village”. Assuming Graeber and Wengrow, as Kondiaronk was Wendat-Huron, the name Canada almost acts like a claim of being the origin of freedom during the enlightenment. It's kinda a wonderful nation name..
posted by jeffburdges at 12:50 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 12:50 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
We can make a case for whether America or United States is more precise, but I think we can all agree that "the IT department of Stanford" is more precise than just "Stanford."
I do work somewhere that renamed the Master branch to the Main branch two years ago.
posted by RobotHero at 12:57 PM on December 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
I do work somewhere that renamed the Master branch to the Main branch two years ago.
posted by RobotHero at 12:57 PM on December 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
> In conclusion, using "American" to refer to the only county in the world with "America" as part of its actual name, as opposed to "United States" which is part of the names of several countries, is the only specific and appropriate approach.
You forget that there is a perfectly good word to refer to residents of the USA: gringo.
posted by madhadron at 1:18 PM on December 30, 2022 [12 favorites]
You forget that there is a perfectly good word to refer to residents of the USA: gringo.
posted by madhadron at 1:18 PM on December 30, 2022 [12 favorites]
I'm dead certain someone came back from a summer internship at a big tech company and figured they'd try to lead a similar initiative at their student IT job.
Academic IT is hidebound, but the idea that a style guide initiative would require a young prophet returning from the mountain of big tech is hilarious.
posted by zamboni at 1:35 PM on December 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
Academic IT is hidebound, but the idea that a style guide initiative would require a young prophet returning from the mountain of big tech is hilarious.
posted by zamboni at 1:35 PM on December 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
Moving away from the derail,
I feel strongly that these derails into finding "better words" say a lot about us, with maybe the most important and demoralizing part being how clearly it parades our unwillingess to stare directly at this kind of bald-faced structural demagoguery being facilitated by our ostensibly free press, and the fact that the entire point of this exercise is to fuel the indignant anger of an audience that does not care about historical accuracy or nuance at all in order to generate rageclick ad revenue.
posted by mhoye at 1:36 PM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
I feel strongly that these derails into finding "better words" say a lot about us, with maybe the most important and demoralizing part being how clearly it parades our unwillingess to stare directly at this kind of bald-faced structural demagoguery being facilitated by our ostensibly free press, and the fact that the entire point of this exercise is to fuel the indignant anger of an audience that does not care about historical accuracy or nuance at all in order to generate rageclick ad revenue.
posted by mhoye at 1:36 PM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
Daub's work seems to be covering a lot of the same media tendencies Michael Hobbs describes in The Methods of Moral Panic Journalism.
posted by jackbishop at 1:37 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jackbishop at 1:37 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
I disagree this counts as "cancel culture" per se.
No per se cancel culture exists, is Daub's larger point. What exists is this ~discourse~ about 'cancel culture' which habitually uses unsourced anecdotes, blurs style guides into censorship, and is grounded primarily on a shared feeling of being righteous thinkers done dirty.
posted by away for regrooving at 1:48 PM on December 30, 2022 [19 favorites]
No per se cancel culture exists, is Daub's larger point. What exists is this ~discourse~ about 'cancel culture' which habitually uses unsourced anecdotes, blurs style guides into censorship, and is grounded primarily on a shared feeling of being righteous thinkers done dirty.
posted by away for regrooving at 1:48 PM on December 30, 2022 [19 favorites]
I'm dead certain someone came back from a summer internship at a big tech company and figured they'd try to lead a similar initiative at their student IT job.
Ah, the predictable pivot from Plan A, 'move on, nothing to see here', to Plan B, 'this was a personal initiative of the most junior member of the team, and the individual in question has already left the organisation'.
posted by verstegan at 1:59 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ah, the predictable pivot from Plan A, 'move on, nothing to see here', to Plan B, 'this was a personal initiative of the most junior member of the team, and the individual in question has already left the organisation'.
posted by verstegan at 1:59 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
This kind of "Stanford said..." carping by trolls on Twitter, FB or wherever is going to be entirely immune to an essay of this length and academic bent. A three-bullet list, sized to fit a single tweet, is the only thing that would have and chance of denting the kind of argument this usually gets framed as.
posted by newdaddy at 2:03 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by newdaddy at 2:03 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
It’s one of my biggest pet peeves how casually - and more often than not incorrectly - the word “ban” gets thrown around.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:19 PM on December 30, 2022
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:19 PM on December 30, 2022
In 2004 we were using "USian" in forums that had a lot of interntional members... I still use USian...
Have not read the article because, as the author says, "it doesn't matter" but what I currently think about when I think about the crusade against cancel culture is my husband's father who finds a way to turn every conversation about football (and some conversations that aren't about football) into a complaint about the Washington Football Team. Like he'll go out of his way to bring up this topic so he can complain about it. In two decades he'll still be complaining about it and it's not even his team.
posted by subdee at 2:39 PM on December 30, 2022
Have not read the article because, as the author says, "it doesn't matter" but what I currently think about when I think about the crusade against cancel culture is my husband's father who finds a way to turn every conversation about football (and some conversations that aren't about football) into a complaint about the Washington Football Team. Like he'll go out of his way to bring up this topic so he can complain about it. In two decades he'll still be complaining about it and it's not even his team.
posted by subdee at 2:39 PM on December 30, 2022
dum spiro spero, it's a reference to this poem about an ancient Greek statue.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:39 PM on December 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:39 PM on December 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
> You forget that there is a perfectly good word to refer to residents of the USA: gringo.
Eh? Doesn't "gringo" have a racial element to its definition?
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:55 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Eh? Doesn't "gringo" have a racial element to its definition?
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:55 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I want to know if this another one of those things where they don't actually care if it's fake, as long as someone is out there pushing back against perceived dogmatic liberalism at universities.
posted by Selena777 at 3:00 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 3:00 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Maybe you'd be better off with 'yanqui.'
posted by box at 3:00 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by box at 3:00 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
there are a lot of people in the southern u s who are damned if you're going to call them "yanqui"
posted by pyramid termite at 3:03 PM on December 30, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 3:03 PM on December 30, 2022 [9 favorites]
Something I do know from writing International Relations/ History papers at SJSU: the reason for using 'US Citizen' instead of 'American' is because Brazilians are American. Mexicans are American.
Oddly though, "norteamericano" (literally "North American") is widely understood in latin america as meaning someone from the U.S.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:16 PM on December 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oddly though, "norteamericano" (literally "North American") is widely understood in latin america as meaning someone from the U.S.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:16 PM on December 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
>You forget that there is a perfectly good word to refer to residents of the USA: gringo.
Eh? Doesn't "gringo" have a racial element to its definition?
Yes, it is used for non-hispanics.
It is also not a polite word to use. Metafilter insists on autofiltering the equivalent terms for Mexicans, but that's fair. They're not words you would use.
Here in the Yucatán expat community we often refer to ourselves as gringos (or blanquitos) but both are inaccurate pet names, and both would be mildly insulting if used by a local.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:30 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
Eh? Doesn't "gringo" have a racial element to its definition?
Yes, it is used for non-hispanics.
It is also not a polite word to use. Metafilter insists on autofiltering the equivalent terms for Mexicans, but that's fair. They're not words you would use.
Here in the Yucatán expat community we often refer to ourselves as gringos (or blanquitos) but both are inaccurate pet names, and both would be mildly insulting if used by a local.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:30 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
Three-bullet list for this might be:
posted by RobotHero at 3:41 PM on December 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
- Some people in the Stanford IT department
- wrote a style-guide for content written by IT department employees.
- the right-wing outrage machine omitted the above so they could insinuate it applies to students or professors, which is misleading
posted by RobotHero at 3:41 PM on December 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
But that's false, especially on the specificity argument.
The United States of America is the only nation with "America" as part of its name, due to the fact that, at the time of its founding, it was a union of all non-colony states in the Americas. Using American to refer to its citizens therefore refers specifically to them.
Say this in Mexico and see what kind of reaction you get.
posted by rhymedirective at 3:42 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
The United States of America is the only nation with "America" as part of its name, due to the fact that, at the time of its founding, it was a union of all non-colony states in the Americas. Using American to refer to its citizens therefore refers specifically to them.
Say this in Mexico and see what kind of reaction you get.
posted by rhymedirective at 3:42 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
It is also not a polite word to use. Metafilter insists on autofiltering the equivalent terms for Mexicans, but that's fair. They're not words you would use.
Here in the Yucatán expat community we often refer to ourselves as gringos (or blanquitos) but both are inaccurate pet names, and both would be mildly insulting if used by a local.
I don't think "gringo" has a negative connotation outside of the U.S.
posted by rhymedirective at 3:43 PM on December 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Here in the Yucatán expat community we often refer to ourselves as gringos (or blanquitos) but both are inaccurate pet names, and both would be mildly insulting if used by a local.
I don't think "gringo" has a negative connotation outside of the U.S.
posted by rhymedirective at 3:43 PM on December 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Frank Fukuyama!
In a just world, anyone proved as spectacularly wrong as Fukuyama by history would not only not be considered a "luminary," he'd have had to have gotten a job he was better suited for.
More broadly, we can argue about the fine details of use of "American," but if by the age of 30 or so you haven't learned to be automatically suspicious of stories that seem to confirm all your cranky little beliefs about someone you dislike, you aren't a grownup and should have your thinking license revoked. The truthier it feels, the more suspicious you should be. One of the most incredibly disorienting aspects of the Trump era has been so often finding that the quote wasn't out of context, the narrative wasn't missing important facts, etc. But one must maintain some basic discipline.
posted by praemunire at 3:43 PM on December 30, 2022 [17 favorites]
In a just world, anyone proved as spectacularly wrong as Fukuyama by history would not only not be considered a "luminary," he'd have had to have gotten a job he was better suited for.
More broadly, we can argue about the fine details of use of "American," but if by the age of 30 or so you haven't learned to be automatically suspicious of stories that seem to confirm all your cranky little beliefs about someone you dislike, you aren't a grownup and should have your thinking license revoked. The truthier it feels, the more suspicious you should be. One of the most incredibly disorienting aspects of the Trump era has been so often finding that the quote wasn't out of context, the narrative wasn't missing important facts, etc. But one must maintain some basic discipline.
posted by praemunire at 3:43 PM on December 30, 2022 [17 favorites]
In the old days it was considered an important job of the higher education to instill upon its students the finest standards of culture, good grade, manners and conduct including such matters as the proper fork to use; proper speech and admonitions against the use of vulgar or blasphemous language. Of course now in this more enlightened age this practice is called a culture war. A war on whom? The people who refuse to acknowledge the fundamental equality of all humanity and their equal rights to dignity and respect.
posted by interogative mood at 4:07 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 4:07 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't think "gringo" has a negative connotation outside of the U.S.
I can 100% assure you that in Yucatán it has a meaning similar to a U.S. slur for Mexicans that Metafilter finds offensive enough to ban posting it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:00 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
I can 100% assure you that in Yucatán it has a meaning similar to a U.S. slur for Mexicans that Metafilter finds offensive enough to ban posting it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:00 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
Makes sense it has a more negative connotation in Mexico, since it's closer. Around here it doesn't really have a negative connotation by itself. The wikipedia article seems pretty accurate about its usage.
posted by simmering octagon at 5:06 PM on December 30, 2022
posted by simmering octagon at 5:06 PM on December 30, 2022
Here's something Stanford did do: emailed me on Xmas day telling me I had ten days to submit a reference for a student if he is to be considered for one of their Master's programmes. Wankers.
posted by biffa at 5:11 PM on December 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by biffa at 5:11 PM on December 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
At least in Chile, gringo can refer to any white, non-Latin (or Latin adjacent), non-Spanish speaking foreigner. So Brits, Germans, Swedes, Dutch, Australians, can all be gringos, especially if they're tourists, and especially-especially if they speak English.
posted by signal at 5:46 PM on December 30, 2022
posted by signal at 5:46 PM on December 30, 2022
You forget that there is a perfectly good word to refer to residents of the USA: gringo.
Either you have a very different definition of "gringo" than the one I'm familiar with, or you've forgotten nearly half the country.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:54 PM on December 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
Either you have a very different definition of "gringo" than the one I'm familiar with, or you've forgotten nearly half the country.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:54 PM on December 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
Makes sense it has a more negative connotation in Mexico, since it's closer.
Why, whatever are you implying? :-)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:11 PM on December 30, 2022
Why, whatever are you implying? :-)
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:11 PM on December 30, 2022
> There are presently 36 sovereign American nations, from Argentina to Canada. Citizens of the USA might like to think they're the only Americans, but any citizen of a nation in the Western hemisphere is an American.
So, I was born in Los Angeles, California. Moved to Ottawa, Ontario, Canada about 16 years ago. Got my Canadian citizenship about 5 years ago.
Canadians born here do not self-identify as Americans. They would find your assertion to be, by turns, silly and insulting.
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:05 PM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
So, I was born in Los Angeles, California. Moved to Ottawa, Ontario, Canada about 16 years ago. Got my Canadian citizenship about 5 years ago.
Canadians born here do not self-identify as Americans. They would find your assertion to be, by turns, silly and insulting.
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:05 PM on December 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
I can 100% assure you that in Yucatán it has a meaning similar to a U.S. slur for Mexicans that Metafilter finds offensive enough to ban posting it.
I’m sorry, I simply don’t buy this.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:36 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’m sorry, I simply don’t buy this.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:36 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’m sorry, I simply don’t buy this.
Umm, okay? I assume you also live here. Perhaps we should meet up and talk to some locals together.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:39 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
Umm, okay? I assume you also live here. Perhaps we should meet up and talk to some locals together.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:39 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
... you're allowed, no, encouraged to call them American geese, mind.
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:39 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:39 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Columbian friends (who consider themselves 'American') pointed out that Europeans come from Europe just as Americans come from the Americas
posted by mbo at 7:40 PM on December 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by mbo at 7:40 PM on December 30, 2022 [7 favorites]
Either you have a very different definition of "gringo" than the one I'm familiar with, or you've forgotten nearly half the country.
Gringo has nothing to do with race, or at the very least very little to do with race.
posted by rhymedirective at 8:27 PM on December 30, 2022
Gringo has nothing to do with race, or at the very least very little to do with race.
posted by rhymedirective at 8:27 PM on December 30, 2022
Just do not ever call a Canadian an American even though it is technically true in the continental sense.
I went to Canada as a teenager with some friends in the 80s, and when we tried to politely explain our cultural confusion by saying "We're Americans" we had a couple of people jump down our throats and tell us Canadians were Americans too. We quickly switched to saying "We're from the States."
I guess things could have changed since then...
posted by mmoncur at 8:54 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
I went to Canada as a teenager with some friends in the 80s, and when we tried to politely explain our cultural confusion by saying "We're Americans" we had a couple of people jump down our throats and tell us Canadians were Americans too. We quickly switched to saying "We're from the States."
I guess things could have changed since then...
posted by mmoncur at 8:54 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Gringo has nothing to do with race, or at the very least very little to do with race.
I can assure you that it in fact does specifically have a racial implication anywhere I've travelled from Panama north, that this is trivial to confirm using the internet we are both in fact using, and that this is a very weird hill to die on.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:21 PM on December 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
I can assure you that it in fact does specifically have a racial implication anywhere I've travelled from Panama north, that this is trivial to confirm using the internet we are both in fact using, and that this is a very weird hill to die on.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:21 PM on December 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
> Gringo has nothing to do with race, or at the very least very little to do with race.
You're gonna have to give me more to go on, this is a remarkable claim.
posted by constraint at 10:24 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
You're gonna have to give me more to go on, this is a remarkable claim.
posted by constraint at 10:24 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think Brazilians do not in fact use it in this way, but I don't know of a Spanish-dominant country that doesn't use gringo to mean basically "honky."
posted by aspersioncast at 10:27 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 10:27 PM on December 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is now quite a tangent but the whole "are US Americans the only Americans?" is also a really tedious debate that seems largely confined to gringos who don't travel much.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:31 PM on December 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 10:31 PM on December 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ah, the predictable pivot from Plan A, 'move on, nothing to see here', to Plan B, 'this was a personal initiative of the most junior member of the team, and the individual in question has already left the organisation'.
I mean...it's a university IT department. Most of the employees are very young, very idealistic, and very temporary, that's the nature of the job. You can consider it excuse-making or bus-throwing-under, but it's also very likely to be true in this case.
posted by potrzebie at 10:57 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean...it's a university IT department. Most of the employees are very young, very idealistic, and very temporary, that's the nature of the job. You can consider it excuse-making or bus-throwing-under, but it's also very likely to be true in this case.
posted by potrzebie at 10:57 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of Americas, and they move around with changing context.
There's The Americas, everything on the supercontinent dividing the Atlantic and Pacific. All those people are Americans, but speakers seem to rarely use that meaning. When people roll their eyes and complain about The Fucking Americans, they're not thinking about people in Uruguay.
There's the United States of America, or the USA, or the States, or 'Murica. (There's a thing about USians introducing themselves as "I'm from Ohio", but that's another post.)
Canadians don't like to be confused for 'Muricans when abroad; but they'll sure as hell insist that they're North Americans.
One of the fun things about The United States of Mexico (besides being a reliable bar bet for the geographically minded: name them) is that it gets to switch around.
Sometimes it's the chocolate in the vanilla/chocolate/strawberry ice cream mix of North America.
Sometimes it's the 800 pound gorilla of Central America ('where does he sit at the cocktail party?' "wherever he wants!"). Same with 3000 years of Mesoamerican history.
Then you have Latin America. I once overheard someone trying to make an EU-economic-influence comparison, where Mexico was France to Brazil's Germany; I am unconvinced, but I get what they were trying for.
posted by bartleby at 11:10 PM on December 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
There's The Americas, everything on the supercontinent dividing the Atlantic and Pacific. All those people are Americans, but speakers seem to rarely use that meaning. When people roll their eyes and complain about The Fucking Americans, they're not thinking about people in Uruguay.
There's the United States of America, or the USA, or the States, or 'Murica. (There's a thing about USians introducing themselves as "I'm from Ohio", but that's another post.)
Canadians don't like to be confused for 'Muricans when abroad; but they'll sure as hell insist that they're North Americans.
One of the fun things about The United States of Mexico (besides being a reliable bar bet for the geographically minded: name them) is that it gets to switch around.
Sometimes it's the chocolate in the vanilla/chocolate/strawberry ice cream mix of North America.
Sometimes it's the 800 pound gorilla of Central America ('where does he sit at the cocktail party?' "wherever he wants!"). Same with 3000 years of Mesoamerican history.
Then you have Latin America. I once overheard someone trying to make an EU-economic-influence comparison, where Mexico was France to Brazil's Germany; I am unconvinced, but I get what they were trying for.
posted by bartleby at 11:10 PM on December 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Can this not be considered a dialectical thing? In US and Canadian English, "American" means "from the USA". In English as spoken by Latin Americans, it means the entirety of NA and SA. Like "pants" in US vs UK English...
posted by airmail at 11:10 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by airmail at 11:10 PM on December 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
I looked at the list and under the "Colonialism" section is a single term: "Philippine islands". The preferred term is "the Philippines", of course. But it's so specific and just... lonely hanging out there all by itself in the section (the only term people could think of under colonialism? Really?) that it makes me wonder if it was incited by a very particular incident in the department lol.
The whole list is so strange - there's downright slurs next to stuff like "rule of thumb". It's like they mashed together slurs, tech terms, and a Buzzfeed listicle like "15 expressions you didn't know had dark origins!"
posted by airmail at 11:40 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
The whole list is so strange - there's downright slurs next to stuff like "rule of thumb". It's like they mashed together slurs, tech terms, and a Buzzfeed listicle like "15 expressions you didn't know had dark origins!"
posted by airmail at 11:40 PM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean...it's a university IT department. Most of the employees are very young, very idealistic
Either potrzebie is trolling us, or they’re a proud graduate of Bimini Polytechnic. (Go Fountains!)
posted by zamboni at 12:41 AM on December 31, 2022
Either potrzebie is trolling us, or they’re a proud graduate of Bimini Polytechnic. (Go Fountains!)
posted by zamboni at 12:41 AM on December 31, 2022
I have encountered several intro-Spanish books which advise US residents to identify themselves as “norteamericanos” when speaking with residents of Central and South America.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 2:01 AM on December 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 2:01 AM on December 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
fantabulous timewaster, I think that is in part because "estadounidense" is a mouthful for most intro Spanish learners, even if it is the correct term.
posted by Hactar at 5:05 AM on December 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 5:05 AM on December 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Technically, any country whose most-consumed pie is apple counts as American.
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 9:53 AM on December 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 9:53 AM on December 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Angloamericans and Latinamericans make a nice pair.
posted by Dr. Curare at 10:20 AM on December 31, 2022
posted by Dr. Curare at 10:20 AM on December 31, 2022
A related New Year's twist - per CNN it takes 26 hours for New Year's celebrations to circle the globe, not 24, and the last two involve "American" entities. American Samoa in hour 25 is populated with "US Nationals" (not citizens), and one hour later it's folks in "much of US minor outlying islands", who are kind of in the same boat WRT (lack of) citizenship.
posted by achrise at 10:25 AM on December 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by achrise at 10:25 AM on December 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Here's something Stanford did do: emailed me on Xmas day telling me I had ten days to submit a reference for a student if he is to be considered for one of their Master's programmes. Wankers.
I believe the preferred terminology is "auto-gratifiers," as it avoids any of the negative connotations associated with
falls down open manhole
posted by Mayor West at 12:01 PM on December 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
I believe the preferred terminology is "auto-gratifiers," as it avoids any of the negative connotations associated with
falls down open manhole
posted by Mayor West at 12:01 PM on December 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Angloamericans and Latinamericans
1) Uh-Oh, Spaghetti-Os
2) Quebec: Latin America? Discuss.
posted by bartleby at 6:12 PM on December 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
1) Uh-Oh, Spaghetti-Os
2) Quebec: Latin America? Discuss.
posted by bartleby at 6:12 PM on December 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I had always thought that "American" to refer to the US was explicitly and implicitly imperialist?
Like Monroe Doctrine to Manifest Destiny type stuff?
posted by eustatic at 6:51 PM on December 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Like Monroe Doctrine to Manifest Destiny type stuff?
posted by eustatic at 6:51 PM on December 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
There are also some white people who claim "American" as an ethnicity. which is...fascinating
posted by eustatic at 7:10 PM on December 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 7:10 PM on December 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's a pity that it might be tied to ickiness, because I see the appeal. As a white person I feel much more connected to mainstream American culture, for better or for worse, than I am to the countries my ancestors came from.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:51 AM on January 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:51 AM on January 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
1) Uh-Oh, Spaghetti-Os
2) Quebec: Latin America? Discuss.
In the context of race and ethnicity in North America, "anglo" doesn't have anything to do with Britain or Englishness. It means simply "white and not hispanic" despite its obvious etymology. In much the same way that "African American" excludes white South Africans and you can eat a hamburger without being a cannibal.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:23 AM on January 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
2) Quebec: Latin America? Discuss.
In the context of race and ethnicity in North America, "anglo" doesn't have anything to do with Britain or Englishness. It means simply "white and not hispanic" despite its obvious etymology. In much the same way that "African American" excludes white South Africans and you can eat a hamburger without being a cannibal.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:23 AM on January 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the distinction is in Canada "anglo" is short for anglophone. So you would never call a francophone an anglo, even if they are "white and not Hispanic."
posted by RobotHero at 5:14 PM on January 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by RobotHero at 5:14 PM on January 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
yeah, the "north" got left from editing and should have been dropped, apologies. In the US context Quebecois, French, Italians, Russians, Finns are all absolutely anglos even if none of them are anglo in the way a European would use the word.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:22 PM on January 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:22 PM on January 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm reluctant to bring it up, because it sows division rather than unity,; but I think you'll find that there's still some small tension between the cultural groups of Francophone (french-) Canadians and Anglophone (anglo-) Canadians.
That's why I made my little joke in response to there being either AngloAmericans or LatinAmericans.
And although you usually have to be pretty Extremely Online to run into it, there's always someone playing Gotcha! about the use of 'African-American' not as a descriptor, but as a euphemism.
Something along the lines of "I don't hear anyone referring to Charlize Theron (S. Africa) as an African-American woman, or Rami Malek (Egyptian parents) as an African-American actor, or Pokimane (born Morocco) as an Afro-Canadian streaming celebrity. You know why? because when you people say African-American or Afro-whatever, you're just trying to say they're dark-skinned, without saying the word 'Black', because Oh, you would never say such a thing, gosh no, I'm not racist/colorist, not me!"
And 'American' as an ethnicity often comes up for people who either don't know, or have stopped tracking, whatever various Old Country heritages they have. At some point a lot of people stop bothering with being one eighth this and one 1/16th that.
The way people will remark on a pretty dog and inquire what breed? and the owner will shrug and say 'Heinz 57 varieties? a little bit of everything?'; ask some Americans about their ethnic heritage and they'll shrug and say "I dunno, regular American Mutt? a bunch of people from a bunch of places, far back enough that I don't really identify with anything in particular?"
I once heard someone from the Bronx describe themselves as "I got eight grandparents, all from the different kinds of people you find around here. Everything from Irish Catholics to Russian Jews, Lebanese, Dominican, Jamaican, Sicilians, whatever. So if you ask me, I identify as being from here, the place where that happens. I'm New Yorican."
I guess it comes down to the Two Roosevelts and the Hyphen. U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt encouraged people to keep ties with their international origins, calling themselves Polish-Americans or whatever, as a way of staying connected to the rest of the world, and being more cosmopolitan in character and outlook.
A generation earlier, his distant cousin Teddy Roosevelt, was an assimilationist, who would get hopping mad; 'Stop Calling yourselves Hungarian-Americans and Portuguese-Americans! You're ALL Americans now! Period! Enough with the hyphens!"
posted by bartleby at 5:25 PM on January 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's why I made my little joke in response to there being either AngloAmericans or LatinAmericans.
And although you usually have to be pretty Extremely Online to run into it, there's always someone playing Gotcha! about the use of 'African-American' not as a descriptor, but as a euphemism.
Something along the lines of "I don't hear anyone referring to Charlize Theron (S. Africa) as an African-American woman, or Rami Malek (Egyptian parents) as an African-American actor, or Pokimane (born Morocco) as an Afro-Canadian streaming celebrity. You know why? because when you people say African-American or Afro-whatever, you're just trying to say they're dark-skinned, without saying the word 'Black', because Oh, you would never say such a thing, gosh no, I'm not racist/colorist, not me!"
And 'American' as an ethnicity often comes up for people who either don't know, or have stopped tracking, whatever various Old Country heritages they have. At some point a lot of people stop bothering with being one eighth this and one 1/16th that.
The way people will remark on a pretty dog and inquire what breed? and the owner will shrug and say 'Heinz 57 varieties? a little bit of everything?'; ask some Americans about their ethnic heritage and they'll shrug and say "I dunno, regular American Mutt? a bunch of people from a bunch of places, far back enough that I don't really identify with anything in particular?"
I once heard someone from the Bronx describe themselves as "I got eight grandparents, all from the different kinds of people you find around here. Everything from Irish Catholics to Russian Jews, Lebanese, Dominican, Jamaican, Sicilians, whatever. So if you ask me, I identify as being from here, the place where that happens. I'm New Yorican."
I guess it comes down to the Two Roosevelts and the Hyphen. U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt encouraged people to keep ties with their international origins, calling themselves Polish-Americans or whatever, as a way of staying connected to the rest of the world, and being more cosmopolitan in character and outlook.
A generation earlier, his distant cousin Teddy Roosevelt, was an assimilationist, who would get hopping mad; 'Stop Calling yourselves Hungarian-Americans and Portuguese-Americans! You're ALL Americans now! Period! Enough with the hyphens!"
posted by bartleby at 5:25 PM on January 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
And yes, TR would absolutely have ended every sentence with an exclamation point.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:55 PM on January 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:55 PM on January 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
mbo: "Columbian friends (who consider themselves 'American') …"
Colombian.
airmail: " In English as spoken by Latin Americans, it means the entirety of NA and SA. "
NA, CA, & SA.
---
The way I settle this whole kerfuffle, is that English America and Spanish América are false friends, they look like they're translations of each other but they're not. The English word refers to the USA, the Spanish one to what English speakers think of as 'the Americas', though some more US-adjacent Spanish speakers might use América to refer to the USA, and I (a Chilean) use it to annoy my politically pedantic friends who think I'm too agringado.
In any case, as with most language issues, there is no right or wrong here, just usage.
posted by signal at 1:35 PM on January 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Colombian.
airmail: " In English as spoken by Latin Americans, it means the entirety of NA and SA. "
NA, CA, & SA.
---
The way I settle this whole kerfuffle, is that English America and Spanish América are false friends, they look like they're translations of each other but they're not. The English word refers to the USA, the Spanish one to what English speakers think of as 'the Americas', though some more US-adjacent Spanish speakers might use América to refer to the USA, and I (a Chilean) use it to annoy my politically pedantic friends who think I'm too agringado.
In any case, as with most language issues, there is no right or wrong here, just usage.
posted by signal at 1:35 PM on January 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Technically, any country whose most-consumed pie is apple counts as American.
And technically, Yankees are people who find it acceptable to eat apple pie for breakfast.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:24 PM on January 3, 2023
And technically, Yankees are people who find it acceptable to eat apple pie for breakfast.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:24 PM on January 3, 2023
But not without a nice piece of shahp cheddah.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:28 PM on January 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:28 PM on January 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
« Older passionate bacon enthusiasm in the US & Canada | 15/10 Awooooo: the Dogs of 2022 Are Here Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments