It’s about the sacrifice
March 6, 2023 6:12 PM Subscribe
"People think it’s this outlet for revenge [...] In reality, it’s this beautiful, consensual, celebratory dynamic. [...] One thing I do with a lot of my long-term clients is: I push them to get raises, I push them to apply to better jobs. Because the more money they make, the more money they can allocate to me, and the richer I get.” An exploration of financial domination, from findoms, finsubs, and others. (Photos mildly NSFW)
Thank you for posting this, it was interesting to read. I very much appreciated that the article foregrounded a sex worker who isn't, in the phrase used in the article, "white and skinny and blonde."
Findom is one of those sexual subcultures where I find it interesting to read about but I definitely can't personally relate to the attraction for the clients (which is why it is fascinating to consider). The article talks to some people for whom it sounds quite positive, and some for whom it sounds negative -- that seems like a normal spectrum of people in an activity that is fun up to a point and destructive beyond it.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:59 PM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Findom is one of those sexual subcultures where I find it interesting to read about but I definitely can't personally relate to the attraction for the clients (which is why it is fascinating to consider). The article talks to some people for whom it sounds quite positive, and some for whom it sounds negative -- that seems like a normal spectrum of people in an activity that is fun up to a point and destructive beyond it.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:59 PM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I have some psychoanalytic thoughts about this but I think they’d very obviously fall into he doth protest too much territory so I’ll keep them to myself.
Oh no you gotta!
posted by grobstein at 8:06 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh no you gotta!
posted by grobstein at 8:06 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I absolutely didn't know this was even a thing. An interesting article that does a good job of being dispassionate about a topic where it would be easy to judge. I don't understand the sexual side of Financial Domination, but I can relate to the idea of wanting to relinquish control and, therefore, responsibility, for a while at least. If you work in a job that carries a lot of responsibility and maybe have a lot going on at home too, I can absolutely why some would be attracted.
posted by dg at 8:31 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dg at 8:31 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
From fintech to findom in two posts and 25 minutes -- now is that idiosynchronicitycratic or what?
posted by y2karl at 9:19 PM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 9:19 PM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I read that whole thing and still sincerely don't understand the sexual element of this or the dominance element of it. The men give the women money and...?
posted by jacquilynne at 9:35 PM on March 6, 2023
posted by jacquilynne at 9:35 PM on March 6, 2023
I appreciated reading this and better understanding the industry -- thanks!
posted by brainwane at 10:10 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brainwane at 10:10 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
jacquilynne: they don't just give the money, they give up control over the money - which, as the article states, can extend to things like making budgets for the subs to follow or making them apply for jobs. Control is something pretty potent in kink, and the control over a resource like money even more so.
posted by creatrixtiara at 10:40 PM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 10:40 PM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am a nosy parker who loves learning about how sex is or can be interlinked with so many different aspects of human life - thank you for sharing!
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:54 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:54 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
The budget angle was so fascinating! I'm angrily de-motivated by coaching/imposition of rules, but so many people benefit from having a friend, roommate, or partner make budgeting obligatory. Where findom serves both parties in an ethical and enjoyable manner, I heartily endorse the idea of subs spending money on the livelihood of their doms rather than typical American stress-spending on the endless parade of Stuff.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 11:01 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 11:01 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Metafiler: From fintech to findom in two posts and 25 minutes.
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 12:21 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 12:21 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean it reads like the article is marketing a lifestyle to potential clients either directly or indirectly, rather than what the real dynamics probably are which on some level is fine I wouldn't want a journalist prying into my actual life either.
posted by mosswinter at 2:20 AM on March 7, 2023
posted by mosswinter at 2:20 AM on March 7, 2023
guilt/gilt
posted by chavenet at 2:43 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:43 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am old. I've been on the internet a lot. In that time I have seen, understood, and sometimes enjoyed things that would make my much-younger self need to go lie down in a quiet room for a while.
The whole findom thing, though, falls into that category of Things I Comprehend, But Do Not Get. I'm not judging--let your freak flag fly, you be you, and all that--but I just really don't get the appeal.
(Although come to think of it, maybe part of my not getting it is my growing up poor-ish and still having some residual anxiety about parting with money.)
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:49 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
The whole findom thing, though, falls into that category of Things I Comprehend, But Do Not Get. I'm not judging--let your freak flag fly, you be you, and all that--but I just really don't get the appeal.
(Although come to think of it, maybe part of my not getting it is my growing up poor-ish and still having some residual anxiety about parting with money.)
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:49 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is a very trusting article that takes the claims of the findoms at face value. In that regard, it’s just trotting out some subculture - in this case financial domination- and saying “look at the freaks”. I’m sure findom exists, I’m sure that some group of people really love it, but if you told me that you’re making thousands a day from random people sending you money, I would definitely assume a connection to money laundering. Or bullshit. Or both.
posted by The River Ivel at 3:04 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The River Ivel at 3:04 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The River Ivel: it's very much a real thing - it's a form of sex work. And (much like other forms of sex work) there is a LOT of work that goes into making the big bucks - it's not as easy as "hey you pay me now you pig".
posted by creatrixtiara at 3:19 AM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 3:19 AM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
A thousand a day was either typical or on the upper end of what the person profiled regularly takes in, if I read correctly? The exception for her birthday was presented as quite exceptional.
My gross annual salary, after close to 20 years as a tenure track/tenured university professor, is around $120,000 (Canadian, but still), which works out to around $10,000/month pre-tax. As I understand it, sex work is often significantly more lucrative than professing - albeit, like any other work under capitalism, in many cases the actual workers only receive a fraction of what their labor brings in. For someone who is well-known and successful enough to be profiled in an article like this, who works solely for herself, grossing around three times my salary seems quite believable to me once I go through the calculations - even though my first instinct was to go "wow, that's a lot of money!", since I don't actually see my full gross monthly salary, and don't usually think in terms of my daily earnings. In professions such as law or accounting or consulting, hourly billing rates of $150-300/hour are not uncommon (especially in big cities), however, and the person profiled puts in a few hours of work each day, so if they are able to earn a comparable hourly rate (while self-employed, without deductions for office staff, etc.), that adds up pretty quickly. I would expect that most people in a similar line of work earn less; and that probably a handful earn more but would have the sort of clientele that would require they not participate in a profile like this?
posted by eviemath at 3:41 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
My gross annual salary, after close to 20 years as a tenure track/tenured university professor, is around $120,000 (Canadian, but still), which works out to around $10,000/month pre-tax. As I understand it, sex work is often significantly more lucrative than professing - albeit, like any other work under capitalism, in many cases the actual workers only receive a fraction of what their labor brings in. For someone who is well-known and successful enough to be profiled in an article like this, who works solely for herself, grossing around three times my salary seems quite believable to me once I go through the calculations - even though my first instinct was to go "wow, that's a lot of money!", since I don't actually see my full gross monthly salary, and don't usually think in terms of my daily earnings. In professions such as law or accounting or consulting, hourly billing rates of $150-300/hour are not uncommon (especially in big cities), however, and the person profiled puts in a few hours of work each day, so if they are able to earn a comparable hourly rate (while self-employed, without deductions for office staff, etc.), that adds up pretty quickly. I would expect that most people in a similar line of work earn less; and that probably a handful earn more but would have the sort of clientele that would require they not participate in a profile like this?
posted by eviemath at 3:41 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
creatrixtiara: there is a LOT of work that goes into making the big bucks - it's not as easy as "hey you pay me now you pig".
It worked for Judy Tenuta! Hell, she even played the accordion at the same time.
posted by dr_dank at 5:16 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
It worked for Judy Tenuta! Hell, she even played the accordion at the same time.
posted by dr_dank at 5:16 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I got to the part where she was having trouble affording insulin without sex work and I was like nah, I'm not going to find any of the rest of this inspiring, this whole thing is messed up!
It does seem like the traditional courtesan relationship--man has the cash, he exchanges it for sexual activity and a little bit of her time and encouragement (she's doing stuff like budgeting and helping with papers, very wifely). The part where she's insulting him helps with his particular orgasm because that's the kink the wife won't or can't indulge at home. Nothing new but I do feel bad for the girls who aren't any good at it and therefore can't get that insulin/work a low paying straight job on the side. Also, I wonder if the guys miss seeing a domme in person like in the old days or if the convenience of online makes up for the lack of touch?
posted by kingdead at 6:10 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
It does seem like the traditional courtesan relationship--man has the cash, he exchanges it for sexual activity and a little bit of her time and encouragement (she's doing stuff like budgeting and helping with papers, very wifely). The part where she's insulting him helps with his particular orgasm because that's the kink the wife won't or can't indulge at home. Nothing new but I do feel bad for the girls who aren't any good at it and therefore can't get that insulin/work a low paying straight job on the side. Also, I wonder if the guys miss seeing a domme in person like in the old days or if the convenience of online makes up for the lack of touch?
posted by kingdead at 6:10 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
What exactly is the "fake financial domination" that the article references? I guess the idea is that the fake stuff takes place if the sub gets scammed for a lot of money rapidly, but the non-fake stuff takes place within the context of a relatively long-term online relationship? If so, the fake stuff strikes me as, in an important sense, terribly real!
posted by PaulVario at 6:12 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by PaulVario at 6:12 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
“I send smaller amounts — simpler things like buying coffee and stuff. You don’t expect anything back, it’s just about doing something nice.” He estimated about 10% of his current earnings goes to Silver. “That’s because I’ve got quite a low income. Because she knows that the other 90% I need to live my life,” he said. “She knows she can comfortably take that 10% and not have to worry about me struggling.”
I'm also coming to this new and trying not to be close-minded about it, but 10% of a recently unemployed person's income seems like it should translate into something pretty valuable for them. I understand the power dynamic is part of it, but it does seem like some of these patrons are behaving from a position of deficit and maybe that colors their decision making.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 6:19 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm also coming to this new and trying not to be close-minded about it, but 10% of a recently unemployed person's income seems like it should translate into something pretty valuable for them. I understand the power dynamic is part of it, but it does seem like some of these patrons are behaving from a position of deficit and maybe that colors their decision making.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 6:19 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
What exactly is the "fake financial domination" that the article references?
One version would be someone who online billed themselves as a "Queen [name] Domme" who bragged in tweets about:
Ashing in the mouth of the subject.
Mentioned the various illegal drugs she takes and said if you hand her money she'd buy drugs. Heroin and Coke being mentioned.
Tried to make coin doing fettish porn.
Had a gofundme where the money was used for a $2K+ a month apartment, vacation travel, and enough drugs that they have to now claiming to be in rehab because the withdraw would kill them.
Abusive behavior towards the social class who funded the gofundme. Abuse that had her losing social media followers because of racism and ableism at 1K-3K a day. At least this time she apologized for the racism in the most recent case VS the doubling down pattern on abusive behavior.
The fake part would be the deceptive nature of her fundraiser which had users of this very website defending a self-admitted junkie getting a 6 figure gofundme. Talking about the past drug admissions during the fundraiser were considered lies or not relevant showing how effective the faking was.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:48 AM on March 7, 2023
One version would be someone who online billed themselves as a "Queen [name] Domme" who bragged in tweets about:
Ashing in the mouth of the subject.
Mentioned the various illegal drugs she takes and said if you hand her money she'd buy drugs. Heroin and Coke being mentioned.
Tried to make coin doing fettish porn.
Had a gofundme where the money was used for a $2K+ a month apartment, vacation travel, and enough drugs that they have to now claiming to be in rehab because the withdraw would kill them.
Abusive behavior towards the social class who funded the gofundme. Abuse that had her losing social media followers because of racism and ableism at 1K-3K a day. At least this time she apologized for the racism in the most recent case VS the doubling down pattern on abusive behavior.
The fake part would be the deceptive nature of her fundraiser which had users of this very website defending a self-admitted junkie getting a 6 figure gofundme. Talking about the past drug admissions during the fundraiser were considered lies or not relevant showing how effective the faking was.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:48 AM on March 7, 2023
Look, Silver seems to enjoy her work and to be a natural at it, but it's absolutely fucked to death that she does this to afford being a journalist.
And yet it is in fact news to me that there's high-level sex work available for people who aren't "white, skinny, and blonde." Pretty inspiring, really. Even when I was young, I figured I'd never qualify because I wasn't the last two, at least not enough to move the needle. Of course, I still wouldn't do any numbers at this -- I'm no good at improv. A lot of sexual fantasy involves taking the fantasizer very seriously, and I'm not great at taking stuff seriously. It's a real interpersonal gift that high-level sex workers use to do what they do.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:09 AM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
And yet it is in fact news to me that there's high-level sex work available for people who aren't "white, skinny, and blonde." Pretty inspiring, really. Even when I was young, I figured I'd never qualify because I wasn't the last two, at least not enough to move the needle. Of course, I still wouldn't do any numbers at this -- I'm no good at improv. A lot of sexual fantasy involves taking the fantasizer very seriously, and I'm not great at taking stuff seriously. It's a real interpersonal gift that high-level sex workers use to do what they do.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:09 AM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
I don't understand the sexual side of Financial Domination, but I can relate to the idea of wanting to relinquish control and, therefore, responsibility, for a while at least.
We have a mild version of this in our relationship -- day to day finances stress her out terribly, so she relinquishes control of that to me and feels much happier as a result. We just don't get the sexual charge out of it that some of the clients report. It does take a huge amount of trust, even in an established relationship, so I can see how when coupled with a sexual charge, it could be a pretty powerful feeling to experience.
The equivalent for me might be having someone totally take over the cooking, shopping, etc decisions and actions (like a "traditional" housewife role, filtered through shows like Mad Men and with an element of a private chef). Not having to even think about that whole set of things would be really relaxing. But again, without the sexual charge being described in the article -- these are things that share some similar power-exchange characteristics but are in no way the same thing as the workers/clients are doing.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:20 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
We have a mild version of this in our relationship -- day to day finances stress her out terribly, so she relinquishes control of that to me and feels much happier as a result. We just don't get the sexual charge out of it that some of the clients report. It does take a huge amount of trust, even in an established relationship, so I can see how when coupled with a sexual charge, it could be a pretty powerful feeling to experience.
The equivalent for me might be having someone totally take over the cooking, shopping, etc decisions and actions (like a "traditional" housewife role, filtered through shows like Mad Men and with an element of a private chef). Not having to even think about that whole set of things would be really relaxing. But again, without the sexual charge being described in the article -- these are things that share some similar power-exchange characteristics but are in no way the same thing as the workers/clients are doing.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:20 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are younger college-age guys in the city I live in who practice findom on older guys. It seems tangential to actual sex work, to the extent that the act of deliberately withholding sex and demanding money could be called sex work. And so, from what I've seen, and not being jokey, this kink seems to have a lot of parallels with marriage without going so far as to call it that: an asymmetric economic relationship without much or any of the physical connection or emotional baggage.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:31 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:31 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
1) Did you know that rich people can just lie about how rich they are, and nobody really checks?
2) This is a Buzzfeed article.
In BDSM, the gag and chains come off at the end of the proverbial day. That's how you know it's fantasy and not abuse. Findoms don't give the money back after collecting their fee.
Every kink scene I've encountered has had it's issues, because while they do emphasize consent, they also attract charismatic, predatory people. As progressive as they are, many if not all rely on whisper networks just like any other group.
At best, findom has the same dynamics as a casino: they all make gestures towards caring about gambling addiction while directly benefiting from it, so you do the math.
Legalize it like all sex work involving consenting adults, though while I can't say anything about Victoria Silver (and neither can you because this is a Buzzfeed article), this particular form looks like exploitation and quacks like exploitation...
posted by AlSweigart at 7:34 AM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
2) This is a Buzzfeed article.
“The biggest misunderstanding is that it’s exploitative. [...] But that’s a lack of recognition of the power of the sub in any kind of dynamic. I mean, they’re the ones with the money at the end of the day.”Yeah, that's what how all cults and abusive relationships portray themselves as.
In BDSM, the gag and chains come off at the end of the proverbial day. That's how you know it's fantasy and not abuse. Findoms don't give the money back after collecting their fee.
Every kink scene I've encountered has had it's issues, because while they do emphasize consent, they also attract charismatic, predatory people. As progressive as they are, many if not all rely on whisper networks just like any other group.
At best, findom has the same dynamics as a casino: they all make gestures towards caring about gambling addiction while directly benefiting from it, so you do the math.
Legalize it like all sex work involving consenting adults, though while I can't say anything about Victoria Silver (and neither can you because this is a Buzzfeed article), this particular form looks like exploitation and quacks like exploitation...
posted by AlSweigart at 7:34 AM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
1. It's Buzzfeed News not Buzzfeed.
2. Sex work is work.
3. I wish MetaFilter would - just occasionally - give cynicism a rest. Why is it so unbelievable that someone might want something different from what you want?
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:00 AM on March 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
2. Sex work is work.
3. I wish MetaFilter would - just occasionally - give cynicism a rest. Why is it so unbelievable that someone might want something different from what you want?
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:00 AM on March 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
this particular form looks like exploitation and quacks like exploitation...
It says in the article her "daily core group" is only 7 people, with one person accounting for half- so she's taking a huge amount of money from them (most likely), which I doubt is sustainable, because the other findom says that people interested in it are rare. People mentioned are generally unemployed, and in the army, neither of which are high paying careers.
I agree it's just a Buzzfeed article, but this seems extremely exploitative, and sex workers can charge whatever they want to charge, but this just seems sad for everyone.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:04 AM on March 7, 2023
It says in the article her "daily core group" is only 7 people, with one person accounting for half- so she's taking a huge amount of money from them (most likely), which I doubt is sustainable, because the other findom says that people interested in it are rare. People mentioned are generally unemployed, and in the army, neither of which are high paying careers.
I agree it's just a Buzzfeed article, but this seems extremely exploitative, and sex workers can charge whatever they want to charge, but this just seems sad for everyone.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:04 AM on March 7, 2023
Apparently if they just changed the name to SexyVisa or SexyMasterCard, then exploiting people is ok.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:05 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:05 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Findom done well is extremely fascinating. I've known a couple of people who take it seriously, sweat the ethical considerations, and know the difference between a finsub who can indulge in what they do healthily and one who's really more into the addiction itself, including the part where it fucks them over.
On the one hand, I do feel a little put off by just how normalized findom stuff has become. It makes me uncomfortable that it's as commonplace as it is—it just feels like the mark of a really unhealthy social fabric in a lot of ways.
On the other hand, money has always been connected to romance and sex. It's been used as a tool of coercion, with the power of wealth used to coax people into positions they don't want to be in; it has at times been the goal of sex or of relationships. That goes back to the institution of marriage itself, in which financial trading or the raising of somebody's class was often the central purpose, far more than sex or love or family ever were.
A lot of the discomfort that people have around findom is that it's explicitly transactional: the fact of the transaction is front-and-center, rather than hidden away or waved off as an unimportant consequence. Maybe it's fucked that so many relationships revolve around money, or that so many people—on either end of the divide—see money as a means to an end. But it's not new. And the plus side of having it all out in the open, apart from it allowing for the possibility that these relationships could be negotiated ethically and consensually, is that the people who actively explore it as a dynamic often discover bizarre variations and nuances, some of which are very revealing when it comes to human nature and interpersonal dynamics, some of which are just kinda wild.
It truly is unnerving to see so much of it happening all at once, because so many things which used to happen behind closed doors are now a click or a scroll away. It's always unnerving to see so much of other people all at once. And it's certainly unsettling to realize how much of it isn't ethical, and that the ethical practice of it likely places people in the extreme minority. But the disturbing thing isn't that this is a new development in our culture: it's that it almost certainly is not, and that the world has always been this way, and that our idea of "civilization" operates, as usual, by sweeping the vast majority of humanity under the rug.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:28 AM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
On the one hand, I do feel a little put off by just how normalized findom stuff has become. It makes me uncomfortable that it's as commonplace as it is—it just feels like the mark of a really unhealthy social fabric in a lot of ways.
On the other hand, money has always been connected to romance and sex. It's been used as a tool of coercion, with the power of wealth used to coax people into positions they don't want to be in; it has at times been the goal of sex or of relationships. That goes back to the institution of marriage itself, in which financial trading or the raising of somebody's class was often the central purpose, far more than sex or love or family ever were.
A lot of the discomfort that people have around findom is that it's explicitly transactional: the fact of the transaction is front-and-center, rather than hidden away or waved off as an unimportant consequence. Maybe it's fucked that so many relationships revolve around money, or that so many people—on either end of the divide—see money as a means to an end. But it's not new. And the plus side of having it all out in the open, apart from it allowing for the possibility that these relationships could be negotiated ethically and consensually, is that the people who actively explore it as a dynamic often discover bizarre variations and nuances, some of which are very revealing when it comes to human nature and interpersonal dynamics, some of which are just kinda wild.
It truly is unnerving to see so much of it happening all at once, because so many things which used to happen behind closed doors are now a click or a scroll away. It's always unnerving to see so much of other people all at once. And it's certainly unsettling to realize how much of it isn't ethical, and that the ethical practice of it likely places people in the extreme minority. But the disturbing thing isn't that this is a new development in our culture: it's that it almost certainly is not, and that the world has always been this way, and that our idea of "civilization" operates, as usual, by sweeping the vast majority of humanity under the rug.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:28 AM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Maybe every kink is exciting to someone, but it's hard to imagine anything more boring to anyone who's not the submissive client. Including those charging them.
posted by 1adam12 at 11:46 AM on March 7, 2023
posted by 1adam12 at 11:46 AM on March 7, 2023
Maybe every kink is exciting to someone, but it's hard to imagine anything more boring to anyone who's not the submissive client. Including those charging them.
Is it not about the existential charge that attaches to money in our world? I'm pretty sure that's why I find it disturbing to think about, and I assume the people who are into it are metabolizing some of the same stuff that makes it disturbing to me.
Like if you try to imagine suddenly losing all your financial resources, really imagine it, does that not make you feel some kind of way? (Presumably this only works on people who feel like they have something.)
The piece doesn't talk about it this way, really, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. But I feel like maybe they're just not going very deep. Like they repeatedly say Silver, the person they profile, is really good at her job, which I believe, but they don't really say what makes her so good (apart from apparently being a nice person).
posted by grobstein at 12:36 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is it not about the existential charge that attaches to money in our world? I'm pretty sure that's why I find it disturbing to think about, and I assume the people who are into it are metabolizing some of the same stuff that makes it disturbing to me.
Like if you try to imagine suddenly losing all your financial resources, really imagine it, does that not make you feel some kind of way? (Presumably this only works on people who feel like they have something.)
The piece doesn't talk about it this way, really, so maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. But I feel like maybe they're just not going very deep. Like they repeatedly say Silver, the person they profile, is really good at her job, which I believe, but they don't really say what makes her so good (apart from apparently being a nice person).
posted by grobstein at 12:36 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the article is legit. I also think it is hard to get if power exchange is not a thing for you. Also, Buzzfeed News is a respecting reporting outlet. Since its establishment in 2011, it has won the George Polk Award, The Sidney Award, National Magazine Award, the National Press Foundation award, and the Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting. That's a big deal. As splitpeasoup points out, this is Buzzfeed News, not the listicle folks. There is a difference, but it is easy to confuse the two.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:49 PM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 12:49 PM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Thanks for posting this, creatrixtiara! This stuff does not overlap with any of my particular kinks but I find it fascinating, and especially (as mentioned above) that it supports Sliver's regular job in journalism. Sad but somehow not surprising.
I admire this young woman. She works under her legal name and told her employer that she did sex work when interviewing for the job. I cannot imagine doing that. Good for her. Also, being a top (of whatever kind) involves a fair amount of service.
The men give the women money and...?
And the women tell the men what to do with the money they still have. By helping them create budgets or, in one case, telling a client he was no longer allowed to be her sub (because he had no job and could not afford to be her sub) and helping one client (maybe the same one?) with a college essay. Like, these dommes are professional caretakers. It is simply an unusual form of care that appeals to a minority of folks only.
The scam fintech dommes do not help the men. At all. They do not care about their clients, they simply take their money but refuse (as the article notes) to dominate them in a way that feels satisfying to the client. The frauds may demand money that their clients cannot afford, which is also mentioned in the article. That is not something Silver does.
Silver and other genuine fintech dommes actually work for the money they get. It is not the hardest job in the world, but it requires skills and talent to pull off ethically and successfully.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:02 PM on March 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
I admire this young woman. She works under her legal name and told her employer that she did sex work when interviewing for the job. I cannot imagine doing that. Good for her. Also, being a top (of whatever kind) involves a fair amount of service.
The men give the women money and...?
And the women tell the men what to do with the money they still have. By helping them create budgets or, in one case, telling a client he was no longer allowed to be her sub (because he had no job and could not afford to be her sub) and helping one client (maybe the same one?) with a college essay. Like, these dommes are professional caretakers. It is simply an unusual form of care that appeals to a minority of folks only.
The scam fintech dommes do not help the men. At all. They do not care about their clients, they simply take their money but refuse (as the article notes) to dominate them in a way that feels satisfying to the client. The frauds may demand money that their clients cannot afford, which is also mentioned in the article. That is not something Silver does.
Silver and other genuine fintech dommes actually work for the money they get. It is not the hardest job in the world, but it requires skills and talent to pull off ethically and successfully.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:02 PM on March 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
And other respectable journalism outlets include the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and that one owned by Jeff Bezos.
Normalizing the emotional manipulation of clients to extract as much money as possible isn't the same as platforming white nationalists in dapper suits, but I wish the problematic/credulous nature of both could be pointed out without the "stop being cynical, this is a reputable news source" reaction.
posted by AlSweigart at 1:09 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Normalizing the emotional manipulation of clients to extract as much money as possible isn't the same as platforming white nationalists in dapper suits, but I wish the problematic/credulous nature of both could be pointed out without the "stop being cynical, this is a reputable news source" reaction.
posted by AlSweigart at 1:09 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The notion of sex work as "exploitation" or "emotional manipulation" is deeply dehumanising and anti-sex-worker.
Does Metafilter not do sex work well?
posted by creatrixtiara at 3:33 PM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Does Metafilter not do sex work well?
posted by creatrixtiara at 3:33 PM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
There's a lot to be cynical about in this piece--parts are genuinely unnerving or depressing, not so much sex work in itself but having to do sex work to buy drugs necessary to live, doing sex work to support another career because "straight" employment won't let you find a place to sleep or get you food to eat, the guys who are trying to spend their last penny so they can get hard off being insulted for giving their last penny. It's not all a pretty picture of empowerment!
It reminds me that I read Virginie Despentes's King Kong Theory years ago and at the time I thought it was an interesting feminist memoir of sex work, now I would find myself looking down on her for having such a cheap and ugly body that she didn't get expensive consumer goods out of selling sex. Not a lot of grindset, Virginie!
posted by kingdead at 4:01 PM on March 7, 2023
It reminds me that I read Virginie Despentes's King Kong Theory years ago and at the time I thought it was an interesting feminist memoir of sex work, now I would find myself looking down on her for having such a cheap and ugly body that she didn't get expensive consumer goods out of selling sex. Not a lot of grindset, Virginie!
posted by kingdead at 4:01 PM on March 7, 2023
Oh no you gotta!
The bafflement in this thread has convinced me to come back and expound a little, despite [gestures].
I'm sure it varies considerably person to person and I won't presume to speak for any of the people mentioned in the article, I don't know their lives. But if you're a certain kind of person who has had a lot of responsibility on them from a young age and who is in a career that involves a lot of pressure and responsibility, which generally involves a lot of carefully controlling various powerful factors lest disaster strike, then boy can I see the appeal of giving up control to someone else and just getting ordered around for a while. In my real-life career, if I make the wrong decision, someone could die. It's long been revealed to me through a decade of TTRPGs and personal creative writing that my escapism is "someone else has all the authority and responsibility and I just wander around happily being told what to do."
I'm not a sub but I can see why someone might be. And if I were so inclined to explore being a sub, findom is of course the absolute most logical place to start. What's the safest thing for me to give up control over? It's the thing that's least important to me, which is money. I say this as a poor person who's been homeless before. I would rather give up control of my money than my body, time, or anything else one might be able to give up control over. I don't, in fact, trust anyone enough to do that, but people who participate in BDSM inherently do. If you trust someone enough to put your physical safety in their hands, why the hell wouldn't you trust them enough to put your money in their hands? Maybe it's the abused kid in me, but I don't understand what's confusing about this if you accept BDSM as a thing. Like this is way way way way way less weird to me than knifeplay. If it's the professional relationship vs personal one, idk, read up on sex work as a whole I guess? Much more eloquent people than me have explained that.
Anyway as someone who can't spend $25 on myself without making a literal spreadsheet about it, I probably would get more emotional satisfaction sending the $25 to someone who definitively says "I want a coffee and a bagel" than I would out of wrangling the anxiety/decision-making part of my brain for an hour and eventually buying myself a coffee and a bagel. Thankfully I have a partner that I get to do that with because, uh... they send me all the money and I'm the one who controls our spending because even thinking about budgeting panics them.
[Next AskMeFi question: Am I a findom? 😭]
posted by brook horse at 4:14 PM on March 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
The bafflement in this thread has convinced me to come back and expound a little, despite [gestures].
I'm sure it varies considerably person to person and I won't presume to speak for any of the people mentioned in the article, I don't know their lives. But if you're a certain kind of person who has had a lot of responsibility on them from a young age and who is in a career that involves a lot of pressure and responsibility, which generally involves a lot of carefully controlling various powerful factors lest disaster strike, then boy can I see the appeal of giving up control to someone else and just getting ordered around for a while. In my real-life career, if I make the wrong decision, someone could die. It's long been revealed to me through a decade of TTRPGs and personal creative writing that my escapism is "someone else has all the authority and responsibility and I just wander around happily being told what to do."
I'm not a sub but I can see why someone might be. And if I were so inclined to explore being a sub, findom is of course the absolute most logical place to start. What's the safest thing for me to give up control over? It's the thing that's least important to me, which is money. I say this as a poor person who's been homeless before. I would rather give up control of my money than my body, time, or anything else one might be able to give up control over. I don't, in fact, trust anyone enough to do that, but people who participate in BDSM inherently do. If you trust someone enough to put your physical safety in their hands, why the hell wouldn't you trust them enough to put your money in their hands? Maybe it's the abused kid in me, but I don't understand what's confusing about this if you accept BDSM as a thing. Like this is way way way way way less weird to me than knifeplay. If it's the professional relationship vs personal one, idk, read up on sex work as a whole I guess? Much more eloquent people than me have explained that.
Anyway as someone who can't spend $25 on myself without making a literal spreadsheet about it, I probably would get more emotional satisfaction sending the $25 to someone who definitively says "I want a coffee and a bagel" than I would out of wrangling the anxiety/decision-making part of my brain for an hour and eventually buying myself a coffee and a bagel. Thankfully I have a partner that I get to do that with because, uh... they send me all the money and I'm the one who controls our spending because even thinking about budgeting panics them.
[Next AskMeFi question: Am I a findom? 😭]
posted by brook horse at 4:14 PM on March 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
The notion of sex work as "exploitation" or "emotional manipulation" is deeply dehumanising and anti-sex-worker.
There are arguably aspects of findom that are not sex work and are very definitely exploitative. I gave an example upthread that most people will not be familiar with. Metafilter does this subject fine, and we should be able to allow room for nuanced discussion of a difficult subject.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:46 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are arguably aspects of findom that are not sex work and are very definitely exploitative. I gave an example upthread that most people will not be familiar with. Metafilter does this subject fine, and we should be able to allow room for nuanced discussion of a difficult subject.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:46 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
She has people who send $10,000 in a day
If this practice means (among other things) siphoning money from the 1%, I'm pleased.
posted by doctornemo at 8:03 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
If this practice means (among other things) siphoning money from the 1%, I'm pleased.
posted by doctornemo at 8:03 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyone can be as cynical as they like about this topic. As a former journalist, I object to the characterization of BuzzFeed News earlier and treating its reporting as though it is a joke. Also, it’s pretty easy to be able to say something about Victoria Silver because if you do a search, you can find her professional work as a writer.
I have met plenty of sketchy characters in the BDSM community in the San Francisco Bay Area. Sketchy folks and people who exploit other people are all around us. Including when it comes to this particular kink, no doubt. That does not make the article inaccurate or the details made up.
Like, if it’s wrong, point out actual errors. Just putting the name of the outlet in italics, twice, to indicate your scorn is not an evidence-based critique. Perhaps you are confusing the messenger with the message. Finally, reporting on something is not the same thing as normalizing it. I get your beef with this particular kink. I just don’t understand why you’re hating on BuzzFeed News but hey, you do you.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:33 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have met plenty of sketchy characters in the BDSM community in the San Francisco Bay Area. Sketchy folks and people who exploit other people are all around us. Including when it comes to this particular kink, no doubt. That does not make the article inaccurate or the details made up.
Like, if it’s wrong, point out actual errors. Just putting the name of the outlet in italics, twice, to indicate your scorn is not an evidence-based critique. Perhaps you are confusing the messenger with the message. Finally, reporting on something is not the same thing as normalizing it. I get your beef with this particular kink. I just don’t understand why you’re hating on BuzzFeed News but hey, you do you.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:33 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
... the guys who are trying to spend their last penny so they can get hard off being insulted for giving their last penny. It's not all a pretty picture of empowerment!
Well, sure, spending your last penny on gratification may not be the best financial advice but, as someone who has been down to their last penny more than once, the temptation to do something just for yourself (when it makes little difference what you spend your last penny on because you're still fucking broke either way) would be easy to give into. There is a certain kind of empowerment in saying 'fuck all of that, I'm doing something just for me'. Empowerment comes in many, varied and sometimes puzzling ways.
posted by dg at 2:04 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, sure, spending your last penny on gratification may not be the best financial advice but, as someone who has been down to their last penny more than once, the temptation to do something just for yourself (when it makes little difference what you spend your last penny on because you're still fucking broke either way) would be easy to give into. There is a certain kind of empowerment in saying 'fuck all of that, I'm doing something just for me'. Empowerment comes in many, varied and sometimes puzzling ways.
posted by dg at 2:04 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
'fuck all of that, I'm doing something just for me'.
that is the base motivation for sooo much consumption in general, esp. the kind you literally put in your mouth/stomach
posted by elkevelvet at 2:11 PM on March 8, 2023
that is the base motivation for sooo much consumption in general, esp. the kind you literally put in your mouth/stomach
posted by elkevelvet at 2:11 PM on March 8, 2023
Also with regards to "last penny": i feel like this is something that sets apart ethical findoms from those who are just in it for the promise of a quick buck without any care for the sub. Like Silver said, sometimes the approach is to push the sub to get to a better earning position or managing their money better so that they're not down to their last cent. Besides, practically speaking - if the sub is giving you their last penny, that's it for you too since they have no more to give.
posted by creatrixtiara at 3:06 PM on March 8, 2023
posted by creatrixtiara at 3:06 PM on March 8, 2023
One wants to repeatedly shear the sheep, after all. In other circumstances it’s called pastoral care.
(Which can also be either a terrible grift or longterm profoundly personal support or, in the cases that truly screw up the seeker, both.)
The economic frame it gives me is that tightly bundling lots of kinds of relationships into one called marriage had weird effects; but so does unbundling.
posted by clew at 5:02 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Which can also be either a terrible grift or longterm profoundly personal support or, in the cases that truly screw up the seeker, both.)
The economic frame it gives me is that tightly bundling lots of kinds of relationships into one called marriage had weird effects; but so does unbundling.
posted by clew at 5:02 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Does Metafilter not do sex work well?
Ooh, a self answering question. Neat.
posted by y2karl at 12:16 PM on March 13, 2023
Ooh, a self answering question. Neat.
posted by y2karl at 12:16 PM on March 13, 2023
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