The Space Program That Fell To Earth
August 22, 2023 8:49 AM Subscribe
The failure of Luna 25 cements Putin’s role as a disastrous space leader. [Ars Technica] The destruction of the lunar probe--which would have been Russia's first lunar mission since a Soviet uncrewed probe in 1976--is the latest in a long line of failures and downgradings of the program that once accomplished the first successful satellite launch, the first man and woman in space, and the first spacewalk.
For a while, Russia was dominant in the space industry in this century, pioneering the space tourism industry (i.e. providing the transportation) and also carrying NASA astronauts to the International Space Station and back between the end of the space shuttle program and the beginning of commercial space travel to the ISS. Although its venerable Soyuz craft have been in use since 1966, they are still being used. But Roscosmos has suffered not only from the post-Soviet Union economic problems but also from endemic corruption, particularly during the kleptocratic leadership of the combative Dmitry Rogozin. Russia may end up having to partner with China for any future space exploration.
(Roscosmos previously on the blue)
For a while, Russia was dominant in the space industry in this century, pioneering the space tourism industry (i.e. providing the transportation) and also carrying NASA astronauts to the International Space Station and back between the end of the space shuttle program and the beginning of commercial space travel to the ISS. Although its venerable Soyuz craft have been in use since 1966, they are still being used. But Roscosmos has suffered not only from the post-Soviet Union economic problems but also from endemic corruption, particularly during the kleptocratic leadership of the combative Dmitry Rogozin. Russia may end up having to partner with China for any future space exploration.
(Roscosmos previously on the blue)
also thankful it was uncrewed. serious egg-in-the-face for Pooty-poo.
posted by supermedusa at 8:58 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 8:58 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Space is easy, planets seem to be hard. In the last few years Beresheet, Chandrayaan-2, Hakuto-R all seemed very well planned with excellent engineering only to be very successful until the last few hundred feet. Could there be moonmen that we pissed off with Apollo?
posted by sammyo at 9:02 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 9:02 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm just glad no cosmonauts were onboard.
I clearly was not paying much attention beforehand, because I was under the impression that there were astronauts on board. So while I am always glad to see Putin keep failing, I felt terrible thinking there had been loss of life, until I finally read an article past the first paragraph and got the actual picture.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:03 AM on August 22, 2023
I clearly was not paying much attention beforehand, because I was under the impression that there were astronauts on board. So while I am always glad to see Putin keep failing, I felt terrible thinking there had been loss of life, until I finally read an article past the first paragraph and got the actual picture.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:03 AM on August 22, 2023
For many of us, people have always been to the moon, and we forget how insanely dangerous it was. Here's a good recap of the crises and fear during the Apollo 11 mission. They did not land where they'd planned. They were flying in almost unprecedented conditions. Here's a clip of Neil Armstrong practicing on Earth.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:21 AM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:21 AM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
The Soviet Union relied on its colonies for the engineers and scientists to build the program. As an oversimplification, the ethnic Russians were the muscle to keep the nerds from the colonies in line. There was an educated elite or ethnic Russians in St. Petersburg and Moscow but they tend to gravitate towards positions of leadership or leave for the west.
When they lost those colonies following the collapse of the Soviet Union the whole system went into a kind of stasis. Old stuff kept getting turned out; very little new stuff came around. Occasionally when a Russian would succeed with some homegrown technology; they state would take it (see the social network VK).
posted by interogative mood at 9:24 AM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
When they lost those colonies following the collapse of the Soviet Union the whole system went into a kind of stasis. Old stuff kept getting turned out; very little new stuff came around. Occasionally when a Russian would succeed with some homegrown technology; they state would take it (see the social network VK).
posted by interogative mood at 9:24 AM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
sammyo, it's much more mundane than that, but also quite interesting.
The Tl;dr for the Japanese lander that crashed (link above) is that the lander, for reasons unclear, was given a new landing target after they had completed running mission simulations to test the software. It passed over the lip of a very large crater, and when the sensor suite saw the altitude drop almost instantly by 3km, it assumed the radar had malfunctioned and shut it off, trying to then land without active altitude data. Unfortunately, because it thought the 3km drop was bad data, it landed flawlessly...much too high. T which point even the moon's weak gravity pulled it to its doom.
Turns out self-flying probes are really hard to build.
posted by chromecow at 9:26 AM on August 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
The Tl;dr for the Japanese lander that crashed (link above) is that the lander, for reasons unclear, was given a new landing target after they had completed running mission simulations to test the software. It passed over the lip of a very large crater, and when the sensor suite saw the altitude drop almost instantly by 3km, it assumed the radar had malfunctioned and shut it off, trying to then land without active altitude data. Unfortunately, because it thought the 3km drop was bad data, it landed flawlessly...much too high. T which point even the moon's weak gravity pulled it to its doom.
Turns out self-flying probes are really hard to build.
posted by chromecow at 9:26 AM on August 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
Could there be moonmen that we pissed off with Apollo?
Moonmen? Try the spirit of Laika.
posted by praemunire at 9:28 AM on August 22, 2023 [22 favorites]
Moonmen? Try the spirit of Laika.
posted by praemunire at 9:28 AM on August 22, 2023 [22 favorites]
Are you saying the moon's haunted? loads gun
posted by rifflesby at 9:35 AM on August 22, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 9:35 AM on August 22, 2023 [22 favorites]
Are you saying the moon's haunted?
Always has been.
loads gun
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:38 AM on August 22, 2023 [27 favorites]
Always has been.
loads gun
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:38 AM on August 22, 2023 [27 favorites]
Russia still leads all other countries in successful gravity-assisted touch-downs from upper floor windows, though.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:40 AM on August 22, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 9:40 AM on August 22, 2023 [21 favorites]
Putin planted a flag undersea at the Arctic to claim most of it, so he is probably sad that his flag was destroyed in the crash.
posted by Brian B. at 9:43 AM on August 22, 2023
posted by Brian B. at 9:43 AM on August 22, 2023
moon's hogged loads AR-15
Considering how Apollo 11 was dependent on having an extraordinarily qualified test pilot making real-time decisions, it shouldn't be surprising that automating the whole process is hard. Most of the landing failures (perhaps not this Russian one) could have been fixed by a human at the controls.
From the evidence in Scott Manley's recent video, India's previous attempt seems to have failed because they came out of a braking phase with more thrust than expected, and the flight computer ended up doing a complete backflip trying to reach a landing target that was no longer reachable.
posted by allegedly at 9:47 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Considering how Apollo 11 was dependent on having an extraordinarily qualified test pilot making real-time decisions, it shouldn't be surprising that automating the whole process is hard. Most of the landing failures (perhaps not this Russian one) could have been fixed by a human at the controls.
From the evidence in Scott Manley's recent video, India's previous attempt seems to have failed because they came out of a braking phase with more thrust than expected, and the flight computer ended up doing a complete backflip trying to reach a landing target that was no longer reachable.
posted by allegedly at 9:47 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The failure of Luna 25 cements Putin’s role as a disastrous space leader.
The mission just screamed "I want to be noticed" by Putin. There was no exploratory missions to work out the bugs or have the teams relearn that landing spacecraft on another body is hard.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:07 AM on August 22, 2023
The mission just screamed "I want to be noticed" by Putin. There was no exploratory missions to work out the bugs or have the teams relearn that landing spacecraft on another body is hard.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:07 AM on August 22, 2023
Apollo 11 landed on the Moon 54 years ago, A year after that, 2001: A Space Odyssey came out -- I saw it at the Cinerama. Remember the Orion III Space plane therein with its stewardesses wearing velcro slippers as they served bulbs of beverages? The future of space flight seemed so bright and endless.
Apollo 17 touched down 49 years ago. There were more Apollo missions scheduled but Nixon shut down the program -- we were embroiled in Vietnam and to his mind, we couldn't afford both projects. No one has been back since. It's no surprise the Russian space program turned into a house of cards, sticks and twigs -- there's always money to be saved to pay for imperial ambitions. As the saying goes, With what little wisdom the world is ruled.
posted by y2karl at 10:13 AM on August 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
Apollo 17 touched down 49 years ago. There were more Apollo missions scheduled but Nixon shut down the program -- we were embroiled in Vietnam and to his mind, we couldn't afford both projects. No one has been back since. It's no surprise the Russian space program turned into a house of cards, sticks and twigs -- there's always money to be saved to pay for imperial ambitions. As the saying goes, With what little wisdom the world is ruled.
posted by y2karl at 10:13 AM on August 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
Putin planted a flag undersea at the Arctic to claim most of it, so he is probably sad that his flag was destroyed in the crash.
It is in the same tradition as planting the Moskva's flag at the bottom of the Black Sea.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:13 AM on August 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
It is in the same tradition as planting the Moskva's flag at the bottom of the Black Sea.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:13 AM on August 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is worst moon disaster since Apollo 18.
posted by gottabefunky at 10:21 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by gottabefunky at 10:21 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've never doubted the legitimacy of the Apollo 11 moon missions, but my faith was rattled a little when I talked to my dad, who worked on the LEM at Grumman, and he said two things:
1. There was a soundstage with a replica of the LEM on a moon-like setting on the Grumman campus. It was "for the news."
2. That he really couldn't remember where he was or what he was doing when Apollo 11 touched down. Meanwhile he remembered how much burgers cost in college.
I was all "ha ha, Dad, you're not doing anything to dispel those moon landing hoax theories!" and then we had some lunch.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:28 AM on August 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
1. There was a soundstage with a replica of the LEM on a moon-like setting on the Grumman campus. It was "for the news."
2. That he really couldn't remember where he was or what he was doing when Apollo 11 touched down. Meanwhile he remembered how much burgers cost in college.
I was all "ha ha, Dad, you're not doing anything to dispel those moon landing hoax theories!" and then we had some lunch.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:28 AM on August 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
Apollo 17 touched down 49 years ago. There were more Apollo missions scheduled but Nixon shut down the program -- we were embroiled in Vietnam and to his mind, we couldn't afford both projects.
The sad part is that most of the hardware for Apollo 18 and 19 was started or built, so it would not have been that expensive to finish out the missions. Rumor has it that Nixon wasn't keen on Apollo because it wasn't his idea and he had wanted to shut the program down with Apollo 15, so we should be grateful that we got 16 and 17.
NASA leadership wasn't too upset about the cancelation because they knew that Apollo was hella risky. They figured something worse that Apollo 13 was gonna happen eventually, so being "forced" to dodge that bullet was an upside.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:35 AM on August 22, 2023
The sad part is that most of the hardware for Apollo 18 and 19 was started or built, so it would not have been that expensive to finish out the missions. Rumor has it that Nixon wasn't keen on Apollo because it wasn't his idea and he had wanted to shut the program down with Apollo 15, so we should be grateful that we got 16 and 17.
NASA leadership wasn't too upset about the cancelation because they knew that Apollo was hella risky. They figured something worse that Apollo 13 was gonna happen eventually, so being "forced" to dodge that bullet was an upside.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:35 AM on August 22, 2023
It turns out the Moon doesn’t want Putin invading them, either.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:45 AM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:45 AM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
On a related.note, I recall reading a science fiction story as a child in either Galaxy or The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction where a poorly decontaminated lunar probe infects the Moon and turns it into green cheese. That story came to my mind when Viking 1 landed as it has with every touchdown since involving Mars or the Moon. To err is human -- don't forget the waterbears.
posted by y2karl at 10:45 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 10:45 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Russia still leads all other countries in successful gravity-assisted touch-downs from upper floor windows, though.
In all seriousness, if I were one of the leaders of that project I'd be very, very worried right now.
posted by tommasz at 10:54 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
In all seriousness, if I were one of the leaders of that project I'd be very, very worried right now.
posted by tommasz at 10:54 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is worst moon disaster since Apollo 18
There's been several Apollo 18s, not all disasters - for example,
the CD by They Might Be Giants. James Michener wrote up another in his Space novel, which was made into a 1985 mini-series. The disastrous conclusion.
Apollo 11 landed on the Moon 54 years ago, A year after that, 2001: A Space Odyssey came out
The film came out a year before, actually.
posted by Rash at 10:58 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's been several Apollo 18s, not all disasters - for example,
the CD by They Might Be Giants. James Michener wrote up another in his Space novel, which was made into a 1985 mini-series. The disastrous conclusion.
Apollo 11 landed on the Moon 54 years ago, A year after that, 2001: A Space Odyssey came out
The film came out a year before, actually.
posted by Rash at 10:58 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's an often overlooked, and possibly unknowable part of the story of early Russian space program, which is the theory that a number of cosmonauts died before (and likely after) Yuri Gagarin's successful orbital flight and this was intentionally hidden by the USSR.
The evidence is, of course, controversial and not concrete, but part of the supporting argument is that the USSR definitely has a known history of taking huge risks and launching missions both unmanned and manned without publicly announcing them and then only publicizing the successful missions.
But there's a very real chance that the first humans that actually made it to space and didn't (theoretically) die in a rocket explosion before achieving orbit never came back.
I'm having trouble finding citations for this, but what the West labeled as Sputnik-1 was likely not the first satellite launch attempt and there were likely a number of failures before the successful launch.
As I understand it this is one of the reasons why the US and the West was caught so off guard by Sputnik-1, because the USSR was so good at keeping their space program a secret because - just like in the West - the development of ICBMs capable of carrying nuclear weapons went hand in hand with peaceful/civilian space programs and the development of orbital class rockets, because they're basically the same thing.
Also one of my favorite - and terrifying - parts of the early space race involves the Cuban Missile Crisis, and a lot of people don't know the details about this, and it's totally weird to me that it's not discussed more.
I had to piece most of this together from totally unrelated and disconnected documentaries and I remember the moment when I realized how close a lot of these dates were was a "Holy shit, WHAT!?" moment.
So, leading up to and during the Cuban Missile Crisis there was also a lot of other Cold War stuff going on between about 1960 and 1962. Remember that the Cuban Missile Crisis was a few years in the making and wasn't just a couple of tense weeks in 1962.
Another puzzle piece in this era in history to keep in mind is the failed CIA backed Bay of Pigs invasion and coup in 1961
Tsar Bomba was tested in October 1961. The US deployed or upgraded a new SOSUS submarine monitoring hydrophone network in the Atlantic and was basically shadowing all Soviet submarines in the area and playing cat and mouse with Soviet subs leading up to and during the Cuban Missile crisis, and it was driving Moscow crazy because they realized the US was suddenly capable of tracking and shadowing all of their submarines like the US could see right through water.
And then the US also tested Starfish Prime during the so-called Rainbow Bombs series in July 1962, which was right before the crux and peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis. And there's some other detail on the Soviet side involving more tests or something else I can't remember.
The gist of it is that saying "tensions were high" barely even begins to describe how tense things were. It was so tense that a dialog was opened between the US and USSR about these tests, especially the Starfish Prime test, and people in the US actually said something like "You know, maybe these tests are a bad idea right now" and they tried to halt the Starfish Prime test and so-called "Rainbow Bomb" test series in general, but there was too much institutional momentum and investment and part of the dialog between the US and USSR was to warn them about the high altitude tests and effectively apologize that they were going to go through with the tests anyway.
If you're now thinking of Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove, you're not alone. It's worth noting that pre-production for Dr. Strangelove started as early as 1960, production began in earnest in about 1962 and the film was released in 1964, neatly spanning this era of collective insanity and madness.
posted by loquacious at 11:06 AM on August 22, 2023 [13 favorites]
The evidence is, of course, controversial and not concrete, but part of the supporting argument is that the USSR definitely has a known history of taking huge risks and launching missions both unmanned and manned without publicly announcing them and then only publicizing the successful missions.
But there's a very real chance that the first humans that actually made it to space and didn't (theoretically) die in a rocket explosion before achieving orbit never came back.
I'm having trouble finding citations for this, but what the West labeled as Sputnik-1 was likely not the first satellite launch attempt and there were likely a number of failures before the successful launch.
As I understand it this is one of the reasons why the US and the West was caught so off guard by Sputnik-1, because the USSR was so good at keeping their space program a secret because - just like in the West - the development of ICBMs capable of carrying nuclear weapons went hand in hand with peaceful/civilian space programs and the development of orbital class rockets, because they're basically the same thing.
Also one of my favorite - and terrifying - parts of the early space race involves the Cuban Missile Crisis, and a lot of people don't know the details about this, and it's totally weird to me that it's not discussed more.
I had to piece most of this together from totally unrelated and disconnected documentaries and I remember the moment when I realized how close a lot of these dates were was a "Holy shit, WHAT!?" moment.
So, leading up to and during the Cuban Missile Crisis there was also a lot of other Cold War stuff going on between about 1960 and 1962. Remember that the Cuban Missile Crisis was a few years in the making and wasn't just a couple of tense weeks in 1962.
Another puzzle piece in this era in history to keep in mind is the failed CIA backed Bay of Pigs invasion and coup in 1961
Tsar Bomba was tested in October 1961. The US deployed or upgraded a new SOSUS submarine monitoring hydrophone network in the Atlantic and was basically shadowing all Soviet submarines in the area and playing cat and mouse with Soviet subs leading up to and during the Cuban Missile crisis, and it was driving Moscow crazy because they realized the US was suddenly capable of tracking and shadowing all of their submarines like the US could see right through water.
And then the US also tested Starfish Prime during the so-called Rainbow Bombs series in July 1962, which was right before the crux and peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis. And there's some other detail on the Soviet side involving more tests or something else I can't remember.
The gist of it is that saying "tensions were high" barely even begins to describe how tense things were. It was so tense that a dialog was opened between the US and USSR about these tests, especially the Starfish Prime test, and people in the US actually said something like "You know, maybe these tests are a bad idea right now" and they tried to halt the Starfish Prime test and so-called "Rainbow Bomb" test series in general, but there was too much institutional momentum and investment and part of the dialog between the US and USSR was to warn them about the high altitude tests and effectively apologize that they were going to go through with the tests anyway.
If you're now thinking of Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove, you're not alone. It's worth noting that pre-production for Dr. Strangelove started as early as 1960, production began in earnest in about 1962 and the film was released in 1964, neatly spanning this era of collective insanity and madness.
posted by loquacious at 11:06 AM on August 22, 2023 [13 favorites]
The sad part is that most of the hardware for Apollo 18 and 19 was started or built, so it would not have been that expensive to finish out the missions.
The lunar lander is on display in the Smithsonian but most of the remaining Apollo flight hardware was used, to launch and get up to Skylab and for the Apollo-Soyuz test in 1975 (the latter so memorably showing up at the very beginning of "Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets").
posted by Rash at 11:14 AM on August 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
The lunar lander is on display in the Smithsonian but most of the remaining Apollo flight hardware was used, to launch and get up to Skylab and for the Apollo-Soyuz test in 1975 (the latter so memorably showing up at the very beginning of "Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets").
posted by Rash at 11:14 AM on August 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
Neat bit of trivia I just found: Sergei Korolev, the person responsible for much of Soviet area space program, was born in an area that is now known as Ukraine.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:17 AM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:17 AM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, almost every time I dive into this era of history I seem to learn something new and alarming.
The history of the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction is a real eye opener and Who's Who list of modern minds.
If you want to get really wild and nutty dive into the collective history of Jack Parsons, JPL (Jack Parson's Lab, heh!) and CalTech. The part about Parsons heavy involvement with the occult, Crowley, the OTO and his Babalon Working and the connections to people like L Ron Hubbard gathered around those events is totally wild and gives me the fuckin' willies, to put it lightly.
And to try to rerail my derail, it's also worth noting that the full name of the ISS is actually ISS/Zarya, or Zarya/ISS depending on who's asking. ISS/Zarya wouldn't exist without Russia. They were the first node and it's still the main control center for the whole station.
posted by loquacious at 11:23 AM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
The history of the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction is a real eye opener and Who's Who list of modern minds.
If you want to get really wild and nutty dive into the collective history of Jack Parsons, JPL (Jack Parson's Lab, heh!) and CalTech. The part about Parsons heavy involvement with the occult, Crowley, the OTO and his Babalon Working and the connections to people like L Ron Hubbard gathered around those events is totally wild and gives me the fuckin' willies, to put it lightly.
And to try to rerail my derail, it's also worth noting that the full name of the ISS is actually ISS/Zarya, or Zarya/ISS depending on who's asking. ISS/Zarya wouldn't exist without Russia. They were the first node and it's still the main control center for the whole station.
posted by loquacious at 11:23 AM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
For all of their bluster and endless announcements of new superheavy-lift rockets, landing crews on the moon and other potential glories, the Russian space program's actual achievements since the breakup of the Soviet Union are actually pretty sparse:
Russia’s last lunar probe launched in 1976 -- some 47 years ago. Luna 24 was the third Soviet mission to return lunar samples to the Earth. Their last successful non-Earth mission (interplanetary or lunar) was in 1986 (Vega 2.)
Their list of failures since 2010 is impressive in its breadth:
• December 2010, Proton-Block DM, upper stage failure, three Russian GLONASS
navigation satellites lost
• February 2011, GEO-IK2, Rokot-Briz, upper stage failure, Russian geodetic satellite
stranded in transfer orbit
• August 2011, Ekspress AM-4, Proton-Briz, upper stage failure, Russian communications
satellite stranded in transfer orbit
• August 2011, Progress M-12M (called Progress 44 by NASA), Soyuz U-Fregat, third
stage failure due to clogged fuel line, Russian cargo spacecraft for International Space
Station lost
• November 2011, Phobos-Grunt, Zenit-Fregat, upper stage failure, Russian Mars-bound
spacecraft stranded in Earth orbit
• December 2011, Soyuz 2.1a, third stage failure, Russian Meridian military
communication satellite lost
• August 2012, Proton-Briz, upper stage failure, Russian Ekspress-MD2 and Indonesian
Telkom-3 communications satellites stranded in transfer orbit
• December 2012, Proton-Briz, upper stage failure, Russian Yamal 402 communications
satellite delivered to wrong orbit.
• January 2013, Rokot-Briz KM, upper stage failure. Three Russian Strela military
communications satellites incorrectly placed into orbit; one (Kosmos 2483)
nonfunctional.
• February 2013, Zenit-3SL Sea Launch, first stage hydraulic pump failure, Intelsat-27
communications satellite lost
• July 2013, Proton-M failure immediately after launch due to incorrectly installed angular
velocity sensors, three Russian GLONASS navigation satellites lost.
• May 2014, Proton-M failure, failed bearing in third stage steering engine, Russian
Ekspress-AM4R communications satellite and Briz upper stage lost (replacement for
Ekspress-AM4 satellite lost in August 2011)
• August 2014, Soyuz ST-B/Fregat malfunction due to frozen hydrazine left two European
Galileo navigation satellites in wrong orbit (launch was by Arianespace from Kourou,
French Guiana)
• April 2015, Soyuz 2.1a malfunction at time of separation from Progress M-27M
spacecraft, a cargo mission to ISS (NASA calls it Progress 59). Spacecraft placed in
wrong orbit, made uncontrolled reentry over Pacific Ocean May 7, 2015 EDT.
Investigation determine cause was “design peculiarity."
They are far, far behind NASA, ESA, JAXA (Japan), ISRO (India) and CASC (PRC), even SpaceX.
posted by wolpfack at 11:25 AM on August 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
Russia’s last lunar probe launched in 1976 -- some 47 years ago. Luna 24 was the third Soviet mission to return lunar samples to the Earth. Their last successful non-Earth mission (interplanetary or lunar) was in 1986 (Vega 2.)
Their list of failures since 2010 is impressive in its breadth:
• December 2010, Proton-Block DM, upper stage failure, three Russian GLONASS
navigation satellites lost
• February 2011, GEO-IK2, Rokot-Briz, upper stage failure, Russian geodetic satellite
stranded in transfer orbit
• August 2011, Ekspress AM-4, Proton-Briz, upper stage failure, Russian communications
satellite stranded in transfer orbit
• August 2011, Progress M-12M (called Progress 44 by NASA), Soyuz U-Fregat, third
stage failure due to clogged fuel line, Russian cargo spacecraft for International Space
Station lost
• November 2011, Phobos-Grunt, Zenit-Fregat, upper stage failure, Russian Mars-bound
spacecraft stranded in Earth orbit
• December 2011, Soyuz 2.1a, third stage failure, Russian Meridian military
communication satellite lost
• August 2012, Proton-Briz, upper stage failure, Russian Ekspress-MD2 and Indonesian
Telkom-3 communications satellites stranded in transfer orbit
• December 2012, Proton-Briz, upper stage failure, Russian Yamal 402 communications
satellite delivered to wrong orbit.
• January 2013, Rokot-Briz KM, upper stage failure. Three Russian Strela military
communications satellites incorrectly placed into orbit; one (Kosmos 2483)
nonfunctional.
• February 2013, Zenit-3SL Sea Launch, first stage hydraulic pump failure, Intelsat-27
communications satellite lost
• July 2013, Proton-M failure immediately after launch due to incorrectly installed angular
velocity sensors, three Russian GLONASS navigation satellites lost.
• May 2014, Proton-M failure, failed bearing in third stage steering engine, Russian
Ekspress-AM4R communications satellite and Briz upper stage lost (replacement for
Ekspress-AM4 satellite lost in August 2011)
• August 2014, Soyuz ST-B/Fregat malfunction due to frozen hydrazine left two European
Galileo navigation satellites in wrong orbit (launch was by Arianespace from Kourou,
French Guiana)
• April 2015, Soyuz 2.1a malfunction at time of separation from Progress M-27M
spacecraft, a cargo mission to ISS (NASA calls it Progress 59). Spacecraft placed in
wrong orbit, made uncontrolled reentry over Pacific Ocean May 7, 2015 EDT.
Investigation determine cause was “design peculiarity."
They are far, far behind NASA, ESA, JAXA (Japan), ISRO (India) and CASC (PRC), even SpaceX.
posted by wolpfack at 11:25 AM on August 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
Its hard to take this article seriously. It just seems like such a hit piece on Putin. I don't like him any more than most Americans, but this just feels like the American version of propaganda.
The first sentence goes out of its way to diminish the Russian vehicle calling it "small". Why is that even relevant at this point in the article? And the harping on how shitty Soyuz is just to finish the paragraph by saying, it still works and its OK for now. Why waste my time this way?
posted by ianhorse at 11:33 AM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
The first sentence goes out of its way to diminish the Russian vehicle calling it "small". Why is that even relevant at this point in the article? And the harping on how shitty Soyuz is just to finish the paragraph by saying, it still works and its OK for now. Why waste my time this way?
posted by ianhorse at 11:33 AM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Apollo 11 landed on the Moon 54 years ago, A year after that, 2001: A Space Odyssey came outYou are right. It was 1969 and I was thinking 1967 for some reason. I stand corrected. Thank you. But we can agree that the landings happened around 50 years ago and then stopped -- which is what makes me sad.
The film came out a year before, actually.
I was living in a basement apartment on 11th NE and listened to it on a portable radio while my half-Abby kitten skittered around in the backyard grass. Listened while staring up at the three quarters Moon high to the East in the bright blue sky. My cat outlived the Apollo program by 11 years.
posted by y2karl at 11:57 AM on August 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
It was a Ukrainian drone that brought it down, wasn’t it?
posted by theora55 at 12:06 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 12:06 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm happy to see a Putin project (Putject?) fail, but the history of space exploration is filled with failures on the part of all space programs. It seems kind of odd to be dunking on this in particular.
posted by brundlefly at 12:12 PM on August 22, 2023
posted by brundlefly at 12:12 PM on August 22, 2023
Shooting began in 65. Did you see the release Karl?
The 1960 announcement on construction of the N-1 rocket just after Sputnik was a catalyst for the space race.
Apollo 18...they found a proton lander and used it for rendezvous with 18s command module.
posted by clavdivs at 12:16 PM on August 22, 2023
The 1960 announcement on construction of the N-1 rocket just after Sputnik was a catalyst for the space race.
Apollo 18...they found a proton lander and used it for rendezvous with 18s command module.
posted by clavdivs at 12:16 PM on August 22, 2023
That's the 4th lunar lander to crash recently. Hopefully ISRO will have more luck tomorrow morning!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 12:29 PM on August 22, 2023
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 12:29 PM on August 22, 2023
Are you saying the moon's haunted?
Always has been.
loads gun
posted by RonButNotStupid
Are you saying guns will stop moon ghosts?
charges proton pack
posted by Splunge at 1:10 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Always has been.
loads gun
posted by RonButNotStupid
Are you saying guns will stop moon ghosts?
charges proton pack
posted by Splunge at 1:10 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Inside Russia described the failure as a result of Russia completely neglecting the Soviet space program. He's downright poetic about how a space program is a test of a society's excess capacity.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:24 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:24 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Мы выбираем полет на Луну.
Не потому, что это легко, а потому, что это сложно.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:35 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Не потому, что это легко, а потому, что это сложно.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:35 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Strangelove
Mutually Assured Destruction
The ex-Soviet 'perimeter' "dead hand" system is supposedly still operational in Russia.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mutually Assured Destruction
The ex-Soviet 'perimeter' "dead hand" system is supposedly still operational in Russia.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm kind of with ianhorse on this one. I read this article earlier and found the tone pretty jarring. Felt more like an opinion piece rather than traditional reporting which at least generally tries to have the pretense of neutrality in reporting facts.
posted by reptile at 2:35 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by reptile at 2:35 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
That said, Putin deserves every failure he can get.
posted by reptile at 2:36 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by reptile at 2:36 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
“It wasn't a crash, it was a special lithobraking operation.”
posted by farlukar at 3:02 PM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by farlukar at 3:02 PM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
Man, wolpfack, that list sounds like Suborbital Demolition Derby. I'd hate to be their insurance agent. Or alternately, thinking of the commission, maybe I'd love to be.
posted by y2karl at 3:06 PM on August 22, 2023
posted by y2karl at 3:06 PM on August 22, 2023
Re: Jack Parsons. Wild guy! You can learn his story via a catchy rock song by Sean Lennon and Les Claypool, Blood And Rockets: Movement I, Saga Of Jack Parsons. Good video too!
How high
Does your rocket fly?
You better be careful boys
You just might
Set the world on fire
posted by SaltySalticid at 3:08 PM on August 22, 2023
How high
Does your rocket fly?
You better be careful boys
You just might
Set the world on fire
posted by SaltySalticid at 3:08 PM on August 22, 2023
Space is easy, planets seem to be hard.
"Spaceflight is easy, landing is hard. Often violently so."
posted by pwnguin at 3:24 PM on August 22, 2023
"Spaceflight is easy, landing is hard. Often violently so."
posted by pwnguin at 3:24 PM on August 22, 2023
Poor little probe.
posted by doctornemo at 3:47 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 3:47 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
grumpybear69: 1. There was a soundstage with a replica of the LEM on a moon-like setting on the Grumman campus. It was "for the news."
Thanks, awesome detail! I was 7 when Apollo 11 landed on the moon (well the Eagle did at least) and in Canada the CBC used the CBS coverage of the mission. I remember plenty of times they'd be showing realistic looking models in simulated action (with "SIMULATION" in big block letters across the bottom of the screen) while the astronauts and Mission Control talked back and forth, or Walter Cronkite and the other in-studio experts told us what was going on. I seem to recall they cut to a shot of the LEM model on the 'moon' when the "Houston, Tranquility Base here..." call came through. And of course the video was perfectly clear (or about as clear as you'd expect on our 20" black-and-white set) and I wouldn't even have thought it was fake, just a SIMULATION.
posted by hangashore at 4:16 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thanks, awesome detail! I was 7 when Apollo 11 landed on the moon (well the Eagle did at least) and in Canada the CBC used the CBS coverage of the mission. I remember plenty of times they'd be showing realistic looking models in simulated action (with "SIMULATION" in big block letters across the bottom of the screen) while the astronauts and Mission Control talked back and forth, or Walter Cronkite and the other in-studio experts told us what was going on. I seem to recall they cut to a shot of the LEM model on the 'moon' when the "Houston, Tranquility Base here..." call came through. And of course the video was perfectly clear (or about as clear as you'd expect on our 20" black-and-white set) and I wouldn't even have thought it was fake, just a SIMULATION.
posted by hangashore at 4:16 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
We share the same cosmology
Regardless of technology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their missions too
posted by credulous at 4:33 PM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
Regardless of technology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their missions too
posted by credulous at 4:33 PM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Soviet Union relied on its colonies for the engineers and scientists to build the program. As an oversimplification, the ethnic Russians were the muscle to keep the nerds from the colonies in line.
While admittedly an labeled an oversimplification, this take feels like icky ethnic stereotyping. ("Colonies" is also a complicated choice of term, though honestly not one I'm really qualified to unpack.)
posted by hoyland at 4:50 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
While admittedly an labeled an oversimplification, this take feels like icky ethnic stereotyping. ("Colonies" is also a complicated choice of term, though honestly not one I'm really qualified to unpack.)
posted by hoyland at 4:50 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I remember plenty of times they'd be showing realistic looking models in simulated action (with "SIMULATION" in big block letters across the bottom of the screen) while the astronauts and Mission Control talked back and forth, or Walter Cronkite and the other in-studio experts told us what was going on.
And so they did!
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:14 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
And so they did!
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:14 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am not saying that Russians are incapable of being great engineers/scientists, etc or that they are intrinsically stupid. The authoritarian system of government in Russia has exiled a lot of their best and most capable ones. The Soviet model pushed a number of intelligent non-ethnic Russians into engineering and science because ethnic Russians got the good jobs in government leadership/management, so it was all that was open. Russia is the last big European empire. Instead of Africa, India and the America they took Northern and Central central Asia and Eastern Europe. Since the fall of communism we have seen a gradual decolonization and process that in many ways mirrors what happened to the French and British empires after WW2.
We have to understand that the experience of Ukraine has been very similar to those of African counties including genocide by the colonial power and attempted settlement.
posted by interogative mood at 6:23 PM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
We have to understand that the experience of Ukraine has been very similar to those of African counties including genocide by the colonial power and attempted settlement.
posted by interogative mood at 6:23 PM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
The shared ethnolinguistic history does not an annexation justify but it’s enough to make Europeans in Africa feel like a bit of a reach as a comparison.
posted by atoxyl at 7:09 PM on August 22, 2023
posted by atoxyl at 7:09 PM on August 22, 2023
> this take feels like icky ethnic stereotyping
I did a half-assed shallow dive on this stuff while bickering with a tankie on Reddit. While there have been egalitarian Russians and perhaps egalitarian periods of time, Russian leadership has engaged in episodes of systematic mass murder, ethnic cleansing, and expulsion.
To the point that I'd want to do a bit of casual research before I was completely comfortable defending a random high-profile scientific or military program as being free of prejudice or at least having prejudice laying the groundwork.
I'm not expecting anyone to grind through the links, the death tolls and maps with all the arrows on them get a bit grim.
http://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://ehne.fr/en/encyclopedia/themes/wars-and-memories/movement-in-times-war/repressed-peoples-in-soviet-union
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Chechens_and_Ingush#Casualties_and_death_toll
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#Death_toll
http://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_war_crimes
https://www.metafilter.com/tags/ukraine
Lastly, this bit of cutting-edge wtf-bigotry https://ukrainetoday.org/2023/08/15/top-intelligence-officer-of-the-russian-federation-urged-not-to-go-to-europe-there-are-perverts-and-biomechanoids/
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:22 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I did a half-assed shallow dive on this stuff while bickering with a tankie on Reddit. While there have been egalitarian Russians and perhaps egalitarian periods of time, Russian leadership has engaged in episodes of systematic mass murder, ethnic cleansing, and expulsion.
To the point that I'd want to do a bit of casual research before I was completely comfortable defending a random high-profile scientific or military program as being free of prejudice or at least having prejudice laying the groundwork.
I'm not expecting anyone to grind through the links, the death tolls and maps with all the arrows on them get a bit grim.
http://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://ehne.fr/en/encyclopedia/themes/wars-and-memories/movement-in-times-war/repressed-peoples-in-soviet-union
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Chechens_and_Ingush#Casualties_and_death_toll
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#Death_toll
http://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_war_crimes
https://www.metafilter.com/tags/ukraine
Lastly, this bit of cutting-edge wtf-bigotry https://ukrainetoday.org/2023/08/15/top-intelligence-officer-of-the-russian-federation-urged-not-to-go-to-europe-there-are-perverts-and-biomechanoids/
'The head of the Foreign Intelligence Service of the Russian Federation, Sergei Naryshkin, made absurd statements.video: https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/15wz0ie/director_of_the_foreign_intelligence_of_the/
The official urged Russians not to travel to Europe because of the “bred perverts” and “biomechanoids.
“According to The Moscow Times , during a speech at the Moscow Conference on International Security, Naryshkin argued that modern Europe “cannot be attractive to a healthy person.” The Russians are in danger there.
“Man is created in the image and likeness of God, and Westerners seek to replace him with all sorts of transgender people and biomechanoids,” Naryshkin said.
...'
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:22 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
The authoritarian system of government in Russia has exiled a lot of their best and most capable ones.
Heck, just start with Sergei Korolev.
Konstantin Tsiokovsky wasn't treated or received well at first, either, but at least he didn't end up in a Gulag.
posted by loquacious at 8:19 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Heck, just start with Sergei Korolev.
Konstantin Tsiokovsky wasn't treated or received well at first, either, but at least he didn't end up in a Gulag.
posted by loquacious at 8:19 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I recall reading a science fiction story ...where a poorly decontaminated lunar probe infects the Moon and turns it into green cheese.
Ha! Thanks to a MeMail from librosegretti, I now know again that it was a two page spoof by John Brunner entitled Report on the Nature of the Lunar Surface written in 1960. Which I read in either the August 1960 Astounding/Analog Science Fact & Fiction -- while the magazine was flipping its name from Astounding to Analog 'cause the latter seemed more hi-tech to long time editor John W. Campbell -- or Judith Merrill"s 6th Annual Edition - The World's Best SF in 1961. A detail I forgot was that the contaminant was a Limburger sandwich dropped by a workman. So, it was a Moon made of stinky green cheese to boot.
That's what I like about this place -- someone always knows what you are talking about. Even when you don't.
posted by y2karl at 8:45 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ha! Thanks to a MeMail from librosegretti, I now know again that it was a two page spoof by John Brunner entitled Report on the Nature of the Lunar Surface written in 1960. Which I read in either the August 1960 Astounding/Analog Science Fact & Fiction -- while the magazine was flipping its name from Astounding to Analog 'cause the latter seemed more hi-tech to long time editor John W. Campbell -- or Judith Merrill"s 6th Annual Edition - The World's Best SF in 1961. A detail I forgot was that the contaminant was a Limburger sandwich dropped by a workman. So, it was a Moon made of stinky green cheese to boot.
That's what I like about this place -- someone always knows what you are talking about. Even when you don't.
posted by y2karl at 8:45 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
In other moon landing news, India's lander is supposed to touchdown today. Watch it live (in 3 hrs from now)
posted by dhruva at 1:05 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dhruva at 1:05 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just came here to post that, dhruva, thanks. I heard an interview clip with one of the Indian scientists yesterday who was very optimistic about what they'd learned from the previous failure, and was also philosophical about how difficult the task truly was. I hope they succeed, even as I hesitate to enjoy any win for Modi, who's almost as bad a right-wing autocrat as Putin.
posted by mediareport at 4:40 AM on August 23, 2023
posted by mediareport at 4:40 AM on August 23, 2023
The shared ethnolinguistic history does not an annexation justify but it’s enough to make Europeans in Africa feel like a bit of a reach as a comparison.
The shared ethnolinguistic history part isn't particularly relevant to the point about Russian/Soviet Colonialism within the European and Asian continents, the Dutch in Africa certainly look and sound far more discordant than the Russian Empire importing Germans to replace Turks and then importing more Russians to replace those Germans a hundred years later, but the concept of treating far-flung places as colonies to be exploited remains very similar.
Russia is far from unique in this, many many nations engaged in and still engage in colonial activities, the point I would like to emphasize is that sharing a similar language and culture does not preclude colonialism. They do not get a pass because they didn't do it in South America or Africa.
posted by neonrev at 5:32 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
The shared ethnolinguistic history part isn't particularly relevant to the point about Russian/Soviet Colonialism within the European and Asian continents, the Dutch in Africa certainly look and sound far more discordant than the Russian Empire importing Germans to replace Turks and then importing more Russians to replace those Germans a hundred years later, but the concept of treating far-flung places as colonies to be exploited remains very similar.
Russia is far from unique in this, many many nations engaged in and still engage in colonial activities, the point I would like to emphasize is that sharing a similar language and culture does not preclude colonialism. They do not get a pass because they didn't do it in South America or Africa.
posted by neonrev at 5:32 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Landed!!
posted by sammyo at 5:33 AM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 5:33 AM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Wow, that was fun. Loved the hovering at 150 meters before the final descent.
posted by mediareport at 5:36 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 5:36 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
But, omg, they had clear telemetry updates but kept cutting to the simulation image, so frustrating.
They built in sufficient fuel reserves to hover for about 10 seconds to find a clear landing spot.
Really great that non-mericans have a real success in space.
posted by sammyo at 5:38 AM on August 23, 2023
They built in sufficient fuel reserves to hover for about 10 seconds to find a clear landing spot.
Really great that non-mericans have a real success in space.
posted by sammyo at 5:38 AM on August 23, 2023
Congrats to India on being the first nation to successfully land a spacecraft on the Lunar south pole.
There are all sorts of problems with the leadership of the various space faring countries, including the USA, but damn if I don't get a bump of pride in humanity when a space mission reaches a successful milestone.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:56 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are all sorts of problems with the leadership of the various space faring countries, including the USA, but damn if I don't get a bump of pride in humanity when a space mission reaches a successful milestone.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:56 AM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
First successful landing at the South Pole. Now we hope the rover deploys and finds direct evidence of water ice.
WSJ on Monday had detail about previous and upcoming South Pole missions: The New Race to Reach the Moon—and Find Water (gift link):
China has successfully landed three uncrewed missions on the moon over the past decade. Most recently, the China National Space Administration’s Chang’e 5 carried a craft that landed on the lunar surface at the end of 2020. It scooped up samples, then deposited those into an ascender craft that took off from the surface and connected with an orbiting return vehicle, which flew back to Earth...
NASA also plans to have astronauts land near the lunar south pole as part of its multiyear exploration program, Artemis. Last year, the agency said it had identified 13 potential landing areas close to the region for its Artemis III mission...The Artemis III mission, currently set for late 2025, would have astronauts touch down using a lander designed by SpaceX.
There's also a Houston-based private company that's planning to send its own South Pole lander with NASA devices up on a SpaceX rocket in November.
posted by mediareport at 5:59 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
WSJ on Monday had detail about previous and upcoming South Pole missions: The New Race to Reach the Moon—and Find Water (gift link):
China has successfully landed three uncrewed missions on the moon over the past decade. Most recently, the China National Space Administration’s Chang’e 5 carried a craft that landed on the lunar surface at the end of 2020. It scooped up samples, then deposited those into an ascender craft that took off from the surface and connected with an orbiting return vehicle, which flew back to Earth...
NASA also plans to have astronauts land near the lunar south pole as part of its multiyear exploration program, Artemis. Last year, the agency said it had identified 13 potential landing areas close to the region for its Artemis III mission...The Artemis III mission, currently set for late 2025, would have astronauts touch down using a lander designed by SpaceX.
There's also a Houston-based private company that's planning to send its own South Pole lander with NASA devices up on a SpaceX rocket in November.
posted by mediareport at 5:59 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
> In other moon landing news, India's lander is supposed to touchdown today.
Thread here:
https://www.metafilter.com/200431/Chandrayaan-3-has-landed-India-has-made-it-to-the-moon
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:02 AM on August 23, 2023
Thread here:
https://www.metafilter.com/200431/Chandrayaan-3-has-landed-India-has-made-it-to-the-moon
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:02 AM on August 23, 2023
If India can put a probe on the moon, then it's a global nuclear power, not a regional one. Whatever its official capabilities are.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:16 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:16 AM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
The shared ethnolinguistic history does not an annexation justify but it’s enough to make Europeans in Africa feel like a bit of a reach as a comparison.
Modern Russia includes 22 Federal Republics representing regions that do no share the ethno-linguistic history of the Russians. The largest, Sakha, is about 3/4 the size of the entire European Union. The Sakha people make up over 55% of the population vs 1/3 ethnic Russian.
Just looking at Ukraine distinct ethnic-linguistic communities like the Crimean Tartars and Jews managed to remain only in greatly reduced numbers due to the genocidal policies of the Czars, Nazis and Soviets who expelled and murdered them. Ukrainian Slavs may have linguistic-ethnic-historical connections to Russians but this did not protect them from the same brutality.
And of course when you dive into any county’s experience under colonialism it is different, even in Africa. Algeria and Niger were both under the French North Africa, but had very different experiences.
posted by interogative mood at 10:23 AM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Modern Russia includes 22 Federal Republics representing regions that do no share the ethno-linguistic history of the Russians. The largest, Sakha, is about 3/4 the size of the entire European Union. The Sakha people make up over 55% of the population vs 1/3 ethnic Russian.
Just looking at Ukraine distinct ethnic-linguistic communities like the Crimean Tartars and Jews managed to remain only in greatly reduced numbers due to the genocidal policies of the Czars, Nazis and Soviets who expelled and murdered them. Ukrainian Slavs may have linguistic-ethnic-historical connections to Russians but this did not protect them from the same brutality.
And of course when you dive into any county’s experience under colonialism it is different, even in Africa. Algeria and Niger were both under the French North Africa, but had very different experiences.
posted by interogative mood at 10:23 AM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
If the Indian probe landed at the South Pole of the moon, Murmansk is at the North Pole of the earth. 70° S is quite a way from the pole. I’ll note it’s further south than anyone has landed before and yeah India.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 10:11 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 10:11 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:53 AM on August 22, 2023 [41 favorites]