This summer, climate extremes suddenly seemed to be everywhere
September 7, 2023 10:01 AM Subscribe
It was the world’s hottest June since humans started keeping track. July was even worse. Phoenix—which averaged 102 degrees in July—got so hot that people received third-degree burns from touching doorknobs. In Iowa, livestock dropped dead in their pens.
Was just reading some comments from deniers, on a news site. The many wildfires? Lack of good forestry management. Everywhere, and only in the last few years. Amazing.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:18 AM on September 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 10:18 AM on September 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
They’ll flip to “it’s real and we must defend habitable areas against immigrants” soon enough.
posted by Artw at 10:21 AM on September 7, 2023 [71 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:21 AM on September 7, 2023 [71 favorites]
I have not yet RTFA, although I will, but yeah, one of my biggest 'global' level concerns is the immigration issue. its going to get really ugly. we could be preparing for it, though. but are we? (I don't mean preparing by building any fucking walls either)
posted by supermedusa at 10:26 AM on September 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 10:26 AM on September 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
except for non-WFH days, I only ventured out the house when shopping in the late evening that month.
I also have a 12V camp freezer in my car now so can keep my groceries nice & cold on the drive back.
Put up solar last year and had a 46kWh surplus for the August bill so the $500 A/C bill I would have been hit with was just $11.66 of miscellaneous PG&E charges instead.
One of the more privileged mofos, I can admit, since the extreme heat didn't really impact me that much.
The warmer winters are going to screw up the cash crops (grapes, pistachio, almond) that benefit from the formerly short & crisp winters here no doubt. Plus of course all the bark beetles chewing up the pine forests that can now survive the milder winters.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:29 AM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I also have a 12V camp freezer in my car now so can keep my groceries nice & cold on the drive back.
Put up solar last year and had a 46kWh surplus for the August bill so the $500 A/C bill I would have been hit with was just $11.66 of miscellaneous PG&E charges instead.
One of the more privileged mofos, I can admit, since the extreme heat didn't really impact me that much.
The warmer winters are going to screw up the cash crops (grapes, pistachio, almond) that benefit from the formerly short & crisp winters here no doubt. Plus of course all the bark beetles chewing up the pine forests that can now survive the milder winters.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:29 AM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Some People are preparing (see Artw's comment).
posted by lalochezia at 10:29 AM on September 7, 2023
posted by lalochezia at 10:29 AM on September 7, 2023
Such a pessimistic headline. Look on the bright side: it's the coolest June we're likely to experience for the rest of our lifetimes!
posted by Nelson at 10:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [22 favorites]
this is fine
posted by chavenet at 10:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 10:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
We had to get little cloth sock-handle-things to put over the handles of our front door because we kept burning our hands on the metal after it sat in the sun all day. (Not third-degree burns like mentioned above, but still quite painful.) We've planted a tree to shade the door, but it'll be a decade before it's tall enough to help.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:33 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 10:33 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm sitting here bathed in sweat here in Amsterdam, Netherlands right now where we hit a record high for this date.
It is hitting 85F today which might not sound hot to others but it is unusual for September up here at these latitudes and the cities are not built for it. Nobody has AC and the houses are built to retain heat not to expel it.
posted by vacapinta at 10:34 AM on September 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
It is hitting 85F today which might not sound hot to others but it is unusual for September up here at these latitudes and the cities are not built for it. Nobody has AC and the houses are built to retain heat not to expel it.
posted by vacapinta at 10:34 AM on September 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
I feel like a lot of people have just given up, realizing there's nothing they can (personally) do about any of this shit. They have voted, and their votes haven't counted. They've protested, and no one listened. And they're too tired and busy trying to survive to get out the torches and pitchforks. By design.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:35 AM on September 7, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:35 AM on September 7, 2023 [27 favorites]
10 years ago:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2013/sep/16/climate-change-contrarians-5-stages-denial
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:37 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2013/sep/16/climate-change-contrarians-5-stages-denial
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:37 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
There have been ads here (I even saw it play at my local movie theater) for Extinction Rebellion. They plan to block a major highway here and are asking people to show up to a legal, 'support' demonstration near the intended blockage. They are asking for people from all walks of life, children too, to come out and support the protest.
posted by vacapinta at 10:40 AM on September 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 10:40 AM on September 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
The main thing we need to do is figure out where the billionaire bunkers are and render them uninhabitable.
posted by Artw at 10:42 AM on September 7, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:42 AM on September 7, 2023 [36 favorites]
I don't have the tech chops to set up a TOR-based website called something like "where they live" that accepts anonymous info dumps about mansions, dachas and yachts but that's probably the first step.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:46 AM on September 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:46 AM on September 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
ArtW, it seems that the rich will live out the final days in the equivalent of prison. Works for me.
posted by InkaLomax at 11:05 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by InkaLomax at 11:05 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
We had two very severe fires here in Spokane County just last month. Here is local reporting written while the fires were still going on. Just the fire closest to our house, which had us on a Level 2 alert for a couple of days, burned over 500 structures by the time it was contained. The other fire did much more property damage with where it burned through north of the city.
We've lived here for 20 years, and we've never had fires like this before. We don't live in, like, deep forest. A lot of these fires were brush fires carried between stands of trees by burning across wheat fields. I've felt like we were in a good place away from natural disasters, but packing a suitcase and getting harnesses on the cats made me pretty aware that we have our own dangers here, too.
posted by hippybear at 11:05 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
We've lived here for 20 years, and we've never had fires like this before. We don't live in, like, deep forest. A lot of these fires were brush fires carried between stands of trees by burning across wheat fields. I've felt like we were in a good place away from natural disasters, but packing a suitcase and getting harnesses on the cats made me pretty aware that we have our own dangers here, too.
posted by hippybear at 11:05 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nobody has AC and the houses are built to retain heat not to expel it.
My neighbors who have air conditioners have been running them all night when the outside temperatures have ranged from a searing 65° Farenheit to a totally incinerating 70° Farenheit at the most. Which makes no sense to me whatsoever. Who leaves on the air conditioning when the outside ambient air temperature is 65° Farenheit? My neighbors. Of course this is in Seattle, where 80° Farenheit is the equivalent what 126° is anywhere else in the world. Oh, how we suffer!
posted by y2karl at 11:18 AM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
My neighbors who have air conditioners have been running them all night when the outside temperatures have ranged from a searing 65° Farenheit to a totally incinerating 70° Farenheit at the most. Which makes no sense to me whatsoever. Who leaves on the air conditioning when the outside ambient air temperature is 65° Farenheit? My neighbors. Of course this is in Seattle, where 80° Farenheit is the equivalent what 126° is anywhere else in the world. Oh, how we suffer!
posted by y2karl at 11:18 AM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Phoenix—which averaged 102 degrees in July—
One thing I didn't realize for a long time is that weather temperatures are measured in the shade. Which means that if you've got actual sun beating on you you're experiencing much more heat than what's reported.
posted by trig at 11:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [17 favorites]
One thing I didn't realize for a long time is that weather temperatures are measured in the shade. Which means that if you've got actual sun beating on you you're experiencing much more heat than what's reported.
posted by trig at 11:30 AM on September 7, 2023 [17 favorites]
My neighbors who have air conditioners have been running them all night when the outside temperatures have ranged from a searing 65° Farenheit to a totally incinerating 70° Farenheit at the most. Which makes no sense to me whatsoever. Who leaves on the air conditioning when the outside ambient air temperature is 65° Farenheit?
So, I think this is one of those things we've been hearing about a lot this summer, where things that are intuitive to some parts of the world are totally new and mystifying to other parts.
Running an AC overnight when the ambient outside temps are hovering around room temp is fine, for a few reasons:
1) Modern windows ACs have energy saving settings where the fan runs but the compressor doesn't kick on, or where both fan and compressor turn off, until the room temp reaches the set point.
2) Central ACs are designed to maintain a temp and the compressor won't kick on until it registers that the indoor temp is above what the thermostat is set on, so turning it on and then off again makes no sense. Central AC systems are designed to be left "on" during the months cooling is needed.
3) ACs in general are also designed to pull moisture from the air; I doubt this is a problem in Seattle but it certainly a problem in other areas of the world.
4) Just because the ambient outside temp is comfortable, it doesn't mean that the apartment or house has a chance to cool off to that degree. Many factors are involved in that. For instance, I live in a rowhouse, and even on nights that get down, to, say, 70, it might not reach that temp until 3AM.
posted by rhymedirective at 11:32 AM on September 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
So, I think this is one of those things we've been hearing about a lot this summer, where things that are intuitive to some parts of the world are totally new and mystifying to other parts.
Running an AC overnight when the ambient outside temps are hovering around room temp is fine, for a few reasons:
1) Modern windows ACs have energy saving settings where the fan runs but the compressor doesn't kick on, or where both fan and compressor turn off, until the room temp reaches the set point.
2) Central ACs are designed to maintain a temp and the compressor won't kick on until it registers that the indoor temp is above what the thermostat is set on, so turning it on and then off again makes no sense. Central AC systems are designed to be left "on" during the months cooling is needed.
3) ACs in general are also designed to pull moisture from the air; I doubt this is a problem in Seattle but it certainly a problem in other areas of the world.
4) Just because the ambient outside temp is comfortable, it doesn't mean that the apartment or house has a chance to cool off to that degree. Many factors are involved in that. For instance, I live in a rowhouse, and even on nights that get down, to, say, 70, it might not reach that temp until 3AM.
posted by rhymedirective at 11:32 AM on September 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
I haven't written many songs in the past few years, but something about this summer got my creative juices flowing. I'll share the chorus with you:
Get ready for a
mostly uninhabitable
hell planet
coming soon, to your neighbourhood.
It's just a
mostly uninhabitable
hell planet.
It's hard to think about it, but we should.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 11:36 AM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Get ready for a
mostly uninhabitable
hell planet
coming soon, to your neighbourhood.
It's just a
mostly uninhabitable
hell planet.
It's hard to think about it, but we should.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 11:36 AM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Who leaves on the air conditioning when the outside ambient air temperature is 65° Farenheit?
Maybe those of us who live in houses built to retain heat? The bedroom my wife and I sleep in has an air conditioner in the window; in summer it is sometimes 18 or 19 degrees overnight but with the A/C off, the body heat of two people, and no other direct ventilation, it will be 26 or 27 in here by morning.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:38 AM on September 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
Maybe those of us who live in houses built to retain heat? The bedroom my wife and I sleep in has an air conditioner in the window; in summer it is sometimes 18 or 19 degrees overnight but with the A/C off, the body heat of two people, and no other direct ventilation, it will be 26 or 27 in here by morning.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:38 AM on September 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
Maybe those of us who live in houses built to retain heat?
That's the bad thing about insulation - it retains heat really well too, and a body or two is a heat source constantly running at 99F degrees.
Also I think plenty of people are concerned about crime with the constant messaging about it, and an open window at night is just inviting a criminal to hop right in and crime about your domicile.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:51 AM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's the bad thing about insulation - it retains heat really well too, and a body or two is a heat source constantly running at 99F degrees.
Also I think plenty of people are concerned about crime with the constant messaging about it, and an open window at night is just inviting a criminal to hop right in and crime about your domicile.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:51 AM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
The EPA recommendation if you have central AC is to set the thermostat to 78 or 79 degrees and leave it on all the time. It's more efficient than turning it off and then on because it'll take more energy to cool from a hotter temperature than to maintain a set temperature.
posted by subdee at 11:55 AM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by subdee at 11:55 AM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Unless you turn it off for the months of April, May, June, September and most of October and leave the windows open and just deal with 60 to 80 in the house.
That said I leave the blower going with no heat no ac just to keep just aired out.
But I tell ya on the left hand side of the Cascades July and August have lost their status as "a/c free zones". And there have been for the past few years a way too hot week in June, too.
I feel like zone 8a has left the building here.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 12:05 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
That said I leave the blower going with no heat no ac just to keep just aired out.
But I tell ya on the left hand side of the Cascades July and August have lost their status as "a/c free zones". And there have been for the past few years a way too hot week in June, too.
I feel like zone 8a has left the building here.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 12:05 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Was just reading some comments from deniers, on a news site. The many wildfires? Lack of good forestry management.
Your commenters seem to have advanced knowledge of best practices in forestry. Around here the comments are mostly “ITS SUMMER lol”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:06 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Your commenters seem to have advanced knowledge of best practices in forestry. Around here the comments are mostly “ITS SUMMER lol”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:06 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
From talking to AC guys and engineers, the air conditioners around here are designed to cool houses ~20 degrees F. With 105+ degree highs and 80+ degree lows at night, they just can't keep up. It's been getting to the point where anything below 100 feels cool.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:22 PM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Spike Glee at 12:22 PM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Artw: They’ll flip to “it’s real and we must defend habitable areas against immigrants” soon enough.
And when the flip to acknowledging climate change is real comes, I fear scientists will be blamed for not having solved the problem yet.
posted by JSilva at 12:27 PM on September 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
And when the flip to acknowledging climate change is real comes, I fear scientists will be blamed for not having solved the problem yet.
posted by JSilva at 12:27 PM on September 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
Was just reading some comments from deniers, on a news site. The many wildfires? Lack of good forestry management.
We've had similar comments here on MeFi this year.
posted by LionIndex at 12:32 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
We've had similar comments here on MeFi this year.
posted by LionIndex at 12:32 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
In Iowa, livestock dropped dead in their pens.
Well, I feel better about dropping out of RAGBRAI.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:41 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, I feel better about dropping out of RAGBRAI.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:41 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
They’ll flip to “it’s real and we must defend habitable areas against immigrants” soon enough.
Marjorie Taylor Greene is already going after people emigrating due to the climate crisis.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:03 PM on September 7, 2023
Marjorie Taylor Greene is already going after people emigrating due to the climate crisis.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:03 PM on September 7, 2023
The EPA recommendation if you have central AC is to set the thermostat to 78 or 79 degrees and leave it on all the time. It's more efficient than turning it off and then on because it'll take more energy to cool from a hotter temperature than to maintain a set temperature.
This isn't right. The EPA recommendation is 78-79 degrees while the house is occupied during the day, 81-82 degrees overnight, and 85 degrees while the house is unoccupied.
While actively cooling from 85 to 78 consumes more power than maintaining 78 degrees, maintaining 85 degrees consumes much less power still, so you come out ahead.
Energy consumption recommendations are more complicated than simple energy balance, because while there's a simple truth of what uses more energy, people's actions complicate things considerably. Homes often increase their total energy consumption with programmable thermostats by dialing in lower temperatures when they're going to benefit from that luxury. I'm pretty sure this is a good thing.
posted by MengerSponge at 1:07 PM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
This isn't right. The EPA recommendation is 78-79 degrees while the house is occupied during the day, 81-82 degrees overnight, and 85 degrees while the house is unoccupied.
While actively cooling from 85 to 78 consumes more power than maintaining 78 degrees, maintaining 85 degrees consumes much less power still, so you come out ahead.
Energy consumption recommendations are more complicated than simple energy balance, because while there's a simple truth of what uses more energy, people's actions complicate things considerably. Homes often increase their total energy consumption with programmable thermostats by dialing in lower temperatures when they're going to benefit from that luxury. I'm pretty sure this is a good thing.
posted by MengerSponge at 1:07 PM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Was just reading some comments from deniers, on a news site. The many wildfires? Lack of good forestry management.
It's both. Fire was a natural part of the ecosystem before humanity showed up. The Forest Service describes a fire paradox where putting out fires means more fuel stacks up to burn in later, less controllable fires. Solving global warming won't stop forest fires, unless we really overcorrect.
We should still do it.
posted by pwnguin at 1:37 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's both. Fire was a natural part of the ecosystem before humanity showed up. The Forest Service describes a fire paradox where putting out fires means more fuel stacks up to burn in later, less controllable fires. Solving global warming won't stop forest fires, unless we really overcorrect.
We should still do it.
posted by pwnguin at 1:37 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Phoenix—which averaged 102 degrees in July
I grew up in a desert and know that even there the sun goes down at night, so surely they mean daily highs averaged 102 F?
posted by St. Oops at 1:54 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I grew up in a desert and know that even there the sun goes down at night, so surely they mean daily highs averaged 102 F?
posted by St. Oops at 1:54 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
so surely they mean daily highs averaged 102 F?
No, from June 30 to July 30 of this year, every day of that 31 day period had a high over 110F in Phoenix.
posted by hippybear at 2:00 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
No, from June 30 to July 30 of this year, every day of that 31 day period had a high over 110F in Phoenix.
posted by hippybear at 2:00 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
And the overnight lows were in the 90s, including a record-breaking low of 97°F (36°C) on July 19.
posted by mbrubeck at 2:10 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 2:10 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh wow, that's nuts. From my experience the clear skies that allow for solar radiation gain during the day time also mean that nights cool significantly. The last time I experienced 115 deg days also had 85 deg nights.
Here in Sweden I haven't had an 85 deg high all season, it's like summer passed us by.
posted by St. Oops at 2:10 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here in Sweden I haven't had an 85 deg high all season, it's like summer passed us by.
posted by St. Oops at 2:10 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
They’ll flip to “it’s real and we must defend habitable areas against immigrants” soon enough.
Matt Christman of Chapo, on the alt-right, August 2017, which I will repost every time it proves to be Cassandra-prophetic:
"And that's what these guys are, these guys that marched in Charlottesville, these are the people who are aware of the unspoken premise of this sort of zombie neoliberalism that we're living in, which is that we're coming to a point where there's gonna be ecological catastrophe, and that it's gonna require either massive redistribution of the ill-gotten gains of the first world, or genocide.
And these are the first people who have basically said, "Well if that's the choice, then I choose genocide", and they're getting everyone else ready, intellectually and emotionally, for why that's gonna be okay when it happens, why they're not really people. When we're putting all this money into more fucking walls and drones and bombs and guns to keep them away, so that we can watch them die with clear consciences, it's because we've been loaded with the ideology that these guys are now starting to express publicly.
On the other side of them, we have people who are saying in full fucking voice, "No, we have the resources to save everybody, to give everybody a decent and worthwhile existence, and that is what we want." And that is the fucking real difference between these two, and you can tell that to the next asshole who tells you that they're actually two sides of the same coin."
The first two paragraphs were and are spot-fucking-on. They're already running on Great Replacement Theory claptrap and The Camp of the Saints being a documentary and the idea that The Other is coming here for political reasons to overthrow the American way of life. When things snap into place to where an average American feels not just inconvenience but hardship and shortages and worries about survival, "they're coming here to replace YOUR LIFE and steal the food and water out of your home" will become the new Republican mantra. And "They have nowhere else to go" will get the response "Too bad" from that side.
Whether those in third paragraph exist in elected office and/or are being listened to at all is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by delfin at 2:12 PM on September 7, 2023 [24 favorites]
Matt Christman of Chapo, on the alt-right, August 2017, which I will repost every time it proves to be Cassandra-prophetic:
"And that's what these guys are, these guys that marched in Charlottesville, these are the people who are aware of the unspoken premise of this sort of zombie neoliberalism that we're living in, which is that we're coming to a point where there's gonna be ecological catastrophe, and that it's gonna require either massive redistribution of the ill-gotten gains of the first world, or genocide.
And these are the first people who have basically said, "Well if that's the choice, then I choose genocide", and they're getting everyone else ready, intellectually and emotionally, for why that's gonna be okay when it happens, why they're not really people. When we're putting all this money into more fucking walls and drones and bombs and guns to keep them away, so that we can watch them die with clear consciences, it's because we've been loaded with the ideology that these guys are now starting to express publicly.
On the other side of them, we have people who are saying in full fucking voice, "No, we have the resources to save everybody, to give everybody a decent and worthwhile existence, and that is what we want." And that is the fucking real difference between these two, and you can tell that to the next asshole who tells you that they're actually two sides of the same coin."
The first two paragraphs were and are spot-fucking-on. They're already running on Great Replacement Theory claptrap and The Camp of the Saints being a documentary and the idea that The Other is coming here for political reasons to overthrow the American way of life. When things snap into place to where an average American feels not just inconvenience but hardship and shortages and worries about survival, "they're coming here to replace YOUR LIFE and steal the food and water out of your home" will become the new Republican mantra. And "They have nowhere else to go" will get the response "Too bad" from that side.
Whether those in third paragraph exist in elected office and/or are being listened to at all is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by delfin at 2:12 PM on September 7, 2023 [24 favorites]
This is what I said about 'Zombies' here in 2012:
posted by jamjam at 3:14 PM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
From 10,000 feet 'Zombies' = 'Something has happened to almost all other human beings that makes it OK-- hell, obligatory-- for me to destroy them and go forth to populate a re-emptied world.'I didn’t get as much pushback as I expected.
'Zombies' is genocide without the guilt, inspired, I think, by the same thing ultimately responsible for the Rwandan genocide: too many people, too little world.
posted by jamjam at 8:58 AM on May 28, 2012
posted by jamjam at 3:14 PM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Is the temperature increase at the boiling frog level?
posted by doctornemo at 3:21 PM on September 7, 2023
posted by doctornemo at 3:21 PM on September 7, 2023
So, about the running the A/C when it’s cool outside: Smoke. I live E of Bend and S of the TriCities and the smoke up here was terrible much of the year. I am very sensitive to smoke; can get bad bronchitis from exposure. So I stay inside whenever possible and keep the A/C on low so I can keep most of the smoke out.
posted by cybrcamper at 3:42 PM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by cybrcamper at 3:42 PM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
U.P. breaks record with 95 degrees on Monday; summer also 9th wettest on record
Michigan experienced it's hottest tempatures in 1936 as a result from another man- made disaster, tbe Dust Bowl.
posted by clavdivs at 3:47 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Michigan experienced it's hottest tempatures in 1936 as a result from another man- made disaster, tbe Dust Bowl.
posted by clavdivs at 3:47 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Exxon Mobil executives are laughing their asses off reading the comments about people blaming each other for overstepping their personal carbon footprint
posted by any major dude at 5:20 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by any major dude at 5:20 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Republicans are grooming the public with fascist ideology, yet again:
“The climate is going to continue to change. And there is no reason to just open up our borders and allow everyone in and continue to funnel over $50 billion or however many billions of dollars or trillions of dollars to foreign countries all over the world simply because they don’t like the climate change.”
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:25 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
“The climate is going to continue to change. And there is no reason to just open up our borders and allow everyone in and continue to funnel over $50 billion or however many billions of dollars or trillions of dollars to foreign countries all over the world simply because they don’t like the climate change.”
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:25 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
i've got to say that sw michigan was hotter than normal, but it wasn't exceptionally hot weather - at sometime around the late 80s - early 90s, we had some really hot weather
this is not meant to say anything about climate change - i am pretty disturbed at what i've heard about in other parts of the world
posted by pyramid termite at 6:03 PM on September 7, 2023
this is not meant to say anything about climate change - i am pretty disturbed at what i've heard about in other parts of the world
posted by pyramid termite at 6:03 PM on September 7, 2023
Here's my prediction: it's not going to be just "keep the immigrants out" as things worsen.
So, say you're an average lower middle class person in a cooler part of the US with access to plenty of water - perhaps you live near the Great Lakes - and you've been fortunate enough to buy a house, so you think you and your children are set. You'll just keep living here, on the land that you own, and eke out whatever life there is to be had, and at least there's water here and it doesn't average 102 degrees.
Why do you think you'll be allowed to keep that land? Someone richer is going to want it, and if they can't buy you out, they'll call in some political favors and law you out, or threaten you out, or throw you out at gunpoint. Everyone with money and clout is going to want to live where it's cool and there's water, and we have no reason to believe that they're going to respect the rights of working class people who happen to be there already - when have land rights been respected on this continent when someone richer and more powerful wanted the land? That's, of course, for those of us not living in houses that have been bought up by property speculators.
Make whatever future plans you like, but bear in mind that in the last instance we're talking about the class of people who are planning to control their slaves with shock collars after society collapses. They are not going to respect your rights if you have something they want.
posted by Frowner at 6:17 PM on September 7, 2023 [20 favorites]
So, say you're an average lower middle class person in a cooler part of the US with access to plenty of water - perhaps you live near the Great Lakes - and you've been fortunate enough to buy a house, so you think you and your children are set. You'll just keep living here, on the land that you own, and eke out whatever life there is to be had, and at least there's water here and it doesn't average 102 degrees.
Why do you think you'll be allowed to keep that land? Someone richer is going to want it, and if they can't buy you out, they'll call in some political favors and law you out, or threaten you out, or throw you out at gunpoint. Everyone with money and clout is going to want to live where it's cool and there's water, and we have no reason to believe that they're going to respect the rights of working class people who happen to be there already - when have land rights been respected on this continent when someone richer and more powerful wanted the land? That's, of course, for those of us not living in houses that have been bought up by property speculators.
Make whatever future plans you like, but bear in mind that in the last instance we're talking about the class of people who are planning to control their slaves with shock collars after society collapses. They are not going to respect your rights if you have something they want.
posted by Frowner at 6:17 PM on September 7, 2023 [20 favorites]
And when the flip to acknowledging climate change is real comes, I fear scientists will be blamed for not having solved the problem yet.
Yeah.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:14 PM on September 7, 2023
Yeah.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:14 PM on September 7, 2023
"Agricultural conditions will be significantly altered, environmental and economic systems potentially disrupted, and political institutions stressed." EPA, September, 1983.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:45 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:45 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Photosynthesis will fail, crops will die, and people will starve. You can bet scientists and farmers will be first up against the wall.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:56 PM on September 7, 2023
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:56 PM on September 7, 2023
We need to start seriously thinking about reducing temperatures by releasing non-reactive aerosols into the upper atmosphere. It's not a permanent solution but it could delay climate change for decades or longer, with few negative effects. That gives us the runway we need to switch to green energy and make our cities more walkable, among other things.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 9:48 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 9:48 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
July (in particular) was tediously hot in the Phoenix area but I don’t think the burn-on-touch thing is an anomaly this year - many business keep hot mitts on their metal door handles. The thing I noticed this year was how hot the interior walls of my house were staying at all hours (even though the AC managed to keep the air cool).
posted by Tandem Affinity at 12:40 AM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Tandem Affinity at 12:40 AM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
>That gives us the runway we need to switch to green energy
Your understanding of human nature is lacking here I think
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:00 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Your understanding of human nature is lacking here I think
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:00 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
a cooler part of the US with access to plenty of water - perhaps you live near the Great Lakes
Agricultural conditions will be significantly altered
Photosynthesis will fail, crops will die, and people will starve.
Not to pile on too much here...but this is the third drought year in a row in my part of the Upper Midwest. A permanent shift that degrades the food-producing capacity of our area would not be good--and that could happen before dramatic local increases in heat or wet-bulb conditions.
Questions around distribution of agricultural products--who gets the food?--could be an earlier wave before we see big population movements. Crops could fail due to simple drought before heat gets bad enough to shut plants down.
Some of the talk around grain shipments disrupted by the war in Ukraine might be a precursor or dress rehearsal for what could happen on a larger scale.
Mississippi River levels at St Paul, Minnesota from the NWS. Spoiler: they're pretty low.
posted by gimonca at 5:41 AM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Agricultural conditions will be significantly altered
Photosynthesis will fail, crops will die, and people will starve.
Not to pile on too much here...but this is the third drought year in a row in my part of the Upper Midwest. A permanent shift that degrades the food-producing capacity of our area would not be good--and that could happen before dramatic local increases in heat or wet-bulb conditions.
Questions around distribution of agricultural products--who gets the food?--could be an earlier wave before we see big population movements. Crops could fail due to simple drought before heat gets bad enough to shut plants down.
Some of the talk around grain shipments disrupted by the war in Ukraine might be a precursor or dress rehearsal for what could happen on a larger scale.
Mississippi River levels at St Paul, Minnesota from the NWS. Spoiler: they're pretty low.
posted by gimonca at 5:41 AM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
i've got to say that sw michigan was hotter than normal, but it wasn't exceptionally hot weather - at sometime around the late 80s - early 90s, we had some really hot weather
I haven’t looked it up, but I live in mid-Michigan, Lansing, and we had unrelenting days in the 90s here. We’ve always had occasional days that hot, or a single major heat wave in the summer, but nothing that lasted so many days in a row, or came back again and again after a couple days’ relief, like we had here in August and even this week.
posted by Well I never at 6:32 AM on September 8, 2023
I haven’t looked it up, but I live in mid-Michigan, Lansing, and we had unrelenting days in the 90s here. We’ve always had occasional days that hot, or a single major heat wave in the summer, but nothing that lasted so many days in a row, or came back again and again after a couple days’ relief, like we had here in August and even this week.
posted by Well I never at 6:32 AM on September 8, 2023
Why do you think you'll be allowed to keep that land? Someone richer is going to want it, and if they can't buy you out, they'll call in some political favors and law you out, or threaten you out, or throw you out at gunpoint
This is all unfortunately true. All the climate change maps that point out things like 'You are within X miles of a coastline...and thus you will have problems' are just laughably wrong.
The honest, climate change maps would point out things like 'You live in an authoritarian government that will just let you die' or' 'You live in a country/state with failing infrastructure/high food dependence that has few allies' That is, the safest places to be will be places that are self-sustaining, care about their citizens, and have strong infrastructure - regardless of where they are geographically. Your A/C won't help you survive the heat when the power outages arrive if you have poor government and infrastructure. Conversely, living near the coastline is ok if your government is one that is willing to help you and displace you.
posted by vacapinta at 7:10 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is all unfortunately true. All the climate change maps that point out things like 'You are within X miles of a coastline...and thus you will have problems' are just laughably wrong.
The honest, climate change maps would point out things like 'You live in an authoritarian government that will just let you die' or' 'You live in a country/state with failing infrastructure/high food dependence that has few allies' That is, the safest places to be will be places that are self-sustaining, care about their citizens, and have strong infrastructure - regardless of where they are geographically. Your A/C won't help you survive the heat when the power outages arrive if you have poor government and infrastructure. Conversely, living near the coastline is ok if your government is one that is willing to help you and displace you.
posted by vacapinta at 7:10 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
So Canada is going to have a half a billion people in 2100 probably and we'll be okay mostly but Russia is going to have to deal with maybe three billion people wanting to move a couple dozen degrees of latitude north and I don't think that's going to work out really well for most of them.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:26 AM on September 8, 2023
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:26 AM on September 8, 2023
I kind of think that the 'climate zombies' thing that you all put on Republicans is kind of hilarious when economic displacement is already occurring. It's not some future thing. It's occurring now. 125,000 people moved to Houston TX in 2022 alone, which often in August was the hottest place in the US.
The California Governor just signed (as in today) Bill AB1307 , which explicitly declares that people cannot be considered as noise pollution under CEQA, the California Environmental Quality Act. They could before hand.
A Judge in Minnesota just put a stay on Minneapolis 2040 plan because it will increase people walking and cast shadows on other buildings. Legally casting shadows on buildings when the climate is heating is a bad thing. Hopefully a higher quality judge will laugh this ruling away, but you never can tell.
What's the effect of these? That more people are going to move to Houston and Arizona.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:33 AM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
The California Governor just signed (as in today) Bill AB1307 , which explicitly declares that people cannot be considered as noise pollution under CEQA, the California Environmental Quality Act. They could before hand.
A Judge in Minnesota just put a stay on Minneapolis 2040 plan because it will increase people walking and cast shadows on other buildings. Legally casting shadows on buildings when the climate is heating is a bad thing. Hopefully a higher quality judge will laugh this ruling away, but you never can tell.
What's the effect of these? That more people are going to move to Houston and Arizona.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:33 AM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Let's keep going:
The mayor the city with the Statue of Liberty is pissed that southern states are sending immigrants.
A post hilariously states that Ellis Island used to process 5,000 a day while he is whining about 10,000 a month.
The San Diego Union Tribune allowed this as an opinion piece a few days ago. San Diego is full. Move people out to the desert (the eastern part of CA). This isn't some random comment section wacko - they highlighted it on their twitter feed
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:47 AM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
The mayor the city with the Statue of Liberty is pissed that southern states are sending immigrants.
A post hilariously states that Ellis Island used to process 5,000 a day while he is whining about 10,000 a month.
The San Diego Union Tribune allowed this as an opinion piece a few days ago. San Diego is full. Move people out to the desert (the eastern part of CA). This isn't some random comment section wacko - they highlighted it on their twitter feed
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:47 AM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
As a Guy Who Wants to be President, why can't Adams see that he's playing into the hands of fellow species members Abbott and DeSantis?
posted by Selena777 at 9:54 AM on September 8, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 9:54 AM on September 8, 2023
Running an AC overnight when the ambient outside temps are hovering around room temp is fine, for a few reasons...
Just to clarify: The daytime temperatures here have been around 65° -- 72° Farenheit but the overnight temperatures have been in the middle to low 50s if that's any help. I've always been more cold tolerant than most of my friends, so that's always been a walking around in a t-shirt temp for me. But most of my neighbors would have thrown on a sweater before going out after sunset. I went out a few nights ago to check where Saturn and the so-called supermoon were when it was around 55° F @ 11 PM. Which was a tad brisk for me. Anyone with an AC in their window had it going all the same because they'd gone to bed with it on.
posted by y2karl at 3:35 PM on September 8, 2023
Just to clarify: The daytime temperatures here have been around 65° -- 72° Farenheit but the overnight temperatures have been in the middle to low 50s if that's any help. I've always been more cold tolerant than most of my friends, so that's always been a walking around in a t-shirt temp for me. But most of my neighbors would have thrown on a sweater before going out after sunset. I went out a few nights ago to check where Saturn and the so-called supermoon were when it was around 55° F @ 11 PM. Which was a tad brisk for me. Anyone with an AC in their window had it going all the same because they'd gone to bed with it on.
posted by y2karl at 3:35 PM on September 8, 2023
I am in the seasonal monsoon tropics. We get hot dry heat, and hot wet heat, and everything in between. The pre-monsoon build-up here can be brutal.
Lowest I set my air-con is 24 C (75 F). Highest is 26 C, occasionally 27 C if the ambient humidity is low. Runs for about 5 months of the year. Virtually no use for the other 7 months.
3) ACs in general are also designed to pull moisture from the air;
posted by rhymedirective
Not so much designed to, as being an inherent unavoidable feature (of the gas compressor type a/c).
But a desirable feature because reducing humidity in the air is a big factor in the overall cooling effect on the body. And also in keeping mold at bay inside the house during the monsoon proper.
4) Just because the ambient outside temp is comfortable, it doesn't mean that the apartment or house has a chance to cool off to that degree. Many factors are involved in that. For instance, I live in a rowhouse, and even on nights that get down, to, say, 70, it might not reach that temp until 3AM.
Same problem in my house, in my case mainly due to insufficient exhaust flow. Got enough inflow down low and up into into the ceiling space. Just need to exhaust faster at the roof. Ongoing project. Trying to do it passively, but may need to resort to an active fan, which will certainly do the job.
Of course, we could always design our houses from the start for effective passive air flow, instead of trying to add it in later.
posted by Pouteria at 7:52 PM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Lowest I set my air-con is 24 C (75 F). Highest is 26 C, occasionally 27 C if the ambient humidity is low. Runs for about 5 months of the year. Virtually no use for the other 7 months.
3) ACs in general are also designed to pull moisture from the air;
posted by rhymedirective
Not so much designed to, as being an inherent unavoidable feature (of the gas compressor type a/c).
But a desirable feature because reducing humidity in the air is a big factor in the overall cooling effect on the body. And also in keeping mold at bay inside the house during the monsoon proper.
4) Just because the ambient outside temp is comfortable, it doesn't mean that the apartment or house has a chance to cool off to that degree. Many factors are involved in that. For instance, I live in a rowhouse, and even on nights that get down, to, say, 70, it might not reach that temp until 3AM.
Same problem in my house, in my case mainly due to insufficient exhaust flow. Got enough inflow down low and up into into the ceiling space. Just need to exhaust faster at the roof. Ongoing project. Trying to do it passively, but may need to resort to an active fan, which will certainly do the job.
Of course, we could always design our houses from the start for effective passive air flow, instead of trying to add it in later.
posted by Pouteria at 7:52 PM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sort of an addition to Vacapinta's comments above, about a different kind of immigration problem shaping up in the Netherlands:
https://www.vn.nl/rising-sea-levels-netherlands/
posted by sneebler at 10:38 AM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
https://www.vn.nl/rising-sea-levels-netherlands/
posted by sneebler at 10:38 AM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Climate change came up at my local CERT meeting this morning. With hotter summers we need cooling centers here now in Seattle-ish, but we don't have a history of them and they're not happening. So the people in need of cooling head to libraries and buses, as public spaces that usually have AC. That's not fair to the people working in or using the libraries and buses, which are already short on resources.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:48 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:48 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
meanwhile, Exxon just Bought Denbury, securing their position has perhaps the largest single recipient of US Treasury 45Q tax exemptions as raised by Joe Manchin's Clean Coal bill, I mean, the Inflation Reduction Act. This is hundreds of billions in infrastructure exemptions to build new coal / syngas / methanol / ammonia facilities, new pipelines and injection fields, to try (emphasis on try) to inject the CO2 into our drinking water.
Clean Coal (and now Clean Methane, i guess) has failed before, from a climate perspective.
And in August, Exxon announces that the world should fail its climate targets, and that wind and solar must only provide 11% of the world energy by 2050.
It's pretty clear what to do. remove oil and gas subsidies. even if the USA only passes Build Back Better, and removes tax exemptions created by the IRA, and supported by Exxon, this will be a huge improvement.
posted by eustatic at 12:53 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Clean Coal (and now Clean Methane, i guess) has failed before, from a climate perspective.
And in August, Exxon announces that the world should fail its climate targets, and that wind and solar must only provide 11% of the world energy by 2050.
It's pretty clear what to do. remove oil and gas subsidies. even if the USA only passes Build Back Better, and removes tax exemptions created by the IRA, and supported by Exxon, this will be a huge improvement.
posted by eustatic at 12:53 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
"That gives us the runway we need to switch to green energy"
"Your understanding of human nature is lacking here I think"
So I guess climate accelerationism is the answer, then? Maybe we should burn as much methane as possible so people really get the point. Surely, that will convince the Fox News crowd!
I get the danger in people getting too comfortable with delaying climate change, or denying it exists... But changing things takes time. No amount of rage or fear is going to make tech or infrastructure development happen instantaneously. It takes time to do those things, and we'd be better off avoiding decades of environmental damage while that happens. I don't think you can simultaneously say that global warming is an existential threat while also casually dismissing something that could delay it indefinitely. Then again, the Sierra Club is fighting against green energy projects, so I guess logical consistency went out the window a long time ago.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 1:27 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Your understanding of human nature is lacking here I think"
So I guess climate accelerationism is the answer, then? Maybe we should burn as much methane as possible so people really get the point. Surely, that will convince the Fox News crowd!
I get the danger in people getting too comfortable with delaying climate change, or denying it exists... But changing things takes time. No amount of rage or fear is going to make tech or infrastructure development happen instantaneously. It takes time to do those things, and we'd be better off avoiding decades of environmental damage while that happens. I don't think you can simultaneously say that global warming is an existential threat while also casually dismissing something that could delay it indefinitely. Then again, the Sierra Club is fighting against green energy projects, so I guess logical consistency went out the window a long time ago.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 1:27 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh sure let's do the "aerosols will save us" thing again.
It's a bad, genocidal, idea.
posted by lalochezia at 10:10 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's a bad, genocidal, idea.
posted by lalochezia at 10:10 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
All of those arguments are completely indistinguishable from the arguments that political accelerationists make. "Things getting worse is good, because if things get bad enough then we'll want to make them good even harder!" "Heighten the contradicts!" What are a few minor genocides now if we can avoid a big one in 2225?
I wouldn't assume people will react the way you want when things get worse. There will be people who are more motivated to speed things up, sure. But a smooth, painless transition to greener lifestyles takes time. Trying to force rapid changes means giving up some of the cornerstones of modern life, and most people aren't willing to make those sacrifices. They won't just drag their heels, they'll actively fight with a fever you rarely see from the comfortable. It's human nature.
There will be enormous, furious reactions to every attempt at change. Liberal presidents will lose because they try to ban gas guzzling trucks, or put substantial gas taxes in place. Conservatives will still say Global Warming is a communist Hoax, or say that it's God's punishment for trans people existing. The comfortable will still mostly be insulated from global warming in their sprawling, air conditioned homes, and so they'll ignore it. The first world will ignore the plight of the third world countries that are hardest hit. In countries like India and Pakistan, tensions will escalate along with the rising temperatures. As heat and droughts get worse, which they will under even the most optimistic scenarios, wars will break out over water. Climate refugees will make immigrant hatred even worse, and make wealthy nations entrench themselves further.
And all the while, if we're lucky, the infrastructure and tech development that will let us be greener without degrowth will happen just marginally faster than they would have otherwise. It's a whole lot of pain for no clear benefit.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 1:03 AM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't assume people will react the way you want when things get worse. There will be people who are more motivated to speed things up, sure. But a smooth, painless transition to greener lifestyles takes time. Trying to force rapid changes means giving up some of the cornerstones of modern life, and most people aren't willing to make those sacrifices. They won't just drag their heels, they'll actively fight with a fever you rarely see from the comfortable. It's human nature.
There will be enormous, furious reactions to every attempt at change. Liberal presidents will lose because they try to ban gas guzzling trucks, or put substantial gas taxes in place. Conservatives will still say Global Warming is a communist Hoax, or say that it's God's punishment for trans people existing. The comfortable will still mostly be insulated from global warming in their sprawling, air conditioned homes, and so they'll ignore it. The first world will ignore the plight of the third world countries that are hardest hit. In countries like India and Pakistan, tensions will escalate along with the rising temperatures. As heat and droughts get worse, which they will under even the most optimistic scenarios, wars will break out over water. Climate refugees will make immigrant hatred even worse, and make wealthy nations entrench themselves further.
And all the while, if we're lucky, the infrastructure and tech development that will let us be greener without degrowth will happen just marginally faster than they would have otherwise. It's a whole lot of pain for no clear benefit.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 1:03 AM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Things getting worse is not good but that doesn’t mean aerosols are going to help in any real way or that it’s even a good choice. Putting aside the absolute need to be able to manufacture and launch a payload of sulphuric particles every year essentially for a couple of millennia or we’re all dead, this just means we get to deal with other catastrophes.
So we won’t die of heat under a gray sky but the continuing rise in CO2 will continue to acidify the oceans. So are we going to stop the heat and then slowly kill all sea life, cutting off not only sources of food but oxygen and carbon sequestration? All you’re doing is delaying one catastrophe on a knife’s edge plan and swapping it for another. Are we supposed to dump a massive amount of lye into the oceans every year to fix that? You can yell “accelerationism!” all you like but what you’re suggesting just means we’re still accelerating towards other problems.
At some point we’re going to have to stop emitting CO2 to avoid one or more disasters. Why do we get to say “not us!” and pass the bag one more time? Do you think people in the future are going to find it any easier than we do to fix this, especially once we hand them one or more dire yearly maintenance nightmares?
posted by delicious-luncheon at 5:19 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
So we won’t die of heat under a gray sky but the continuing rise in CO2 will continue to acidify the oceans. So are we going to stop the heat and then slowly kill all sea life, cutting off not only sources of food but oxygen and carbon sequestration? All you’re doing is delaying one catastrophe on a knife’s edge plan and swapping it for another. Are we supposed to dump a massive amount of lye into the oceans every year to fix that? You can yell “accelerationism!” all you like but what you’re suggesting just means we’re still accelerating towards other problems.
At some point we’re going to have to stop emitting CO2 to avoid one or more disasters. Why do we get to say “not us!” and pass the bag one more time? Do you think people in the future are going to find it any easier than we do to fix this, especially once we hand them one or more dire yearly maintenance nightmares?
posted by delicious-luncheon at 5:19 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's a bad, genocidal, idea.
The word "genocide" has a specific meaning. Please do not use it as a synonym for "ideas I don't like" or "ideas that might harm a lot of people".
Both links are forms of the argument "if we start sulfate aerosols we'll have to keep doing that forever as CO2 gets worse and worse". Yes, that is a serious concern. And the primary argument against geoengineering efforts, that it will be cover for avoiding tackling the real problems.
But that's not what anyone here is arguing would be the purpose of geoengineering. The comment that first mentions aerosols understands this and says "It's not a permanent solution" and "That gives us the runway we need to switch to green energy". Please try to engage with that on good faith.
Speaking for myself, my concern is that no matter what we do right now we're still going to have a serious temperature rise that's going to harm and displace a large number of people. I think it's worth considering some temporary stopgaps to mitigate some of the harm while we work harder on fixing the root cause, warming gas emissions. It could be the difference between "50 years that are bad and involve expensive geoengineering" vs "50 years of millions of people dying and global chaos as a quarter of the world's population tries to relocate."
But I'm certainly not going to make that decision. Neither is any keyboard warrior here. Thee second order arguments about influence and political psychology are pretty abstract. The interesting / frightening thing about several geoengineering technologies is they can be deployed unilaterally, by any of several single countries acting alone. I'm convinced that's going to happen in the next, oh, 30 years. Which could be good or terrible, particularly if the whole concept remains an unstudied taboo everywhere else.
posted by Nelson at 7:16 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
The word "genocide" has a specific meaning. Please do not use it as a synonym for "ideas I don't like" or "ideas that might harm a lot of people".
Both links are forms of the argument "if we start sulfate aerosols we'll have to keep doing that forever as CO2 gets worse and worse". Yes, that is a serious concern. And the primary argument against geoengineering efforts, that it will be cover for avoiding tackling the real problems.
But that's not what anyone here is arguing would be the purpose of geoengineering. The comment that first mentions aerosols understands this and says "It's not a permanent solution" and "That gives us the runway we need to switch to green energy". Please try to engage with that on good faith.
Speaking for myself, my concern is that no matter what we do right now we're still going to have a serious temperature rise that's going to harm and displace a large number of people. I think it's worth considering some temporary stopgaps to mitigate some of the harm while we work harder on fixing the root cause, warming gas emissions. It could be the difference between "50 years that are bad and involve expensive geoengineering" vs "50 years of millions of people dying and global chaos as a quarter of the world's population tries to relocate."
But I'm certainly not going to make that decision. Neither is any keyboard warrior here. Thee second order arguments about influence and political psychology are pretty abstract. The interesting / frightening thing about several geoengineering technologies is they can be deployed unilaterally, by any of several single countries acting alone. I'm convinced that's going to happen in the next, oh, 30 years. Which could be good or terrible, particularly if the whole concept remains an unstudied taboo everywhere else.
posted by Nelson at 7:16 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is anyone trying to move that "special rocks on beaches" idea forward? It sounded like a really simple and effective sequestration strategy.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:23 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Meatbomb at 7:23 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are you refererring to olivine weathering as a form of carbon capture? Like all geoengineering or direct carbon capture it's one of those things where we see a hopeful article or two a year. (See here, here, or here.) But it's a long, long way from being a proven technology or something anyone is serious about doing at scale. Usually these ideas get a little press because some startup is raising $100M to run a test. That's great, the more experimentation with ideas the better, but it's not anything serious right now.
This dynamic is part of why I'm sympathetic to the argument that geoengineering is just a distraction. So far it has been. What's actually working right now at large scale are the shift to renewable power sources and efficiency measures. I just fear it's not enough, fast enough. And that we would be better off trying other ideas at the same time. Which is where weathering is, but it's a long way from a meaningful solution.
posted by Nelson at 7:34 AM on September 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
This dynamic is part of why I'm sympathetic to the argument that geoengineering is just a distraction. So far it has been. What's actually working right now at large scale are the shift to renewable power sources and efficiency measures. I just fear it's not enough, fast enough. And that we would be better off trying other ideas at the same time. Which is where weathering is, but it's a long way from a meaningful solution.
posted by Nelson at 7:34 AM on September 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
If anyone can find a way these technologies are better than trees I’ll be interested, otherwise it just seems like techno-hucksterism.
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thank you Nelson.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:52 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Meatbomb at 7:52 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tokyo recently broke its 64-day streak of highs above 30C/86F, with many days 35 and above. (Please note, our humidity levels have consistently been 80-100% during this time, with dew points hovering around 25C/77F+.)
It’s been absolutely miserable since June. I’ll get home after work, and my bedroom is 32C without AC (the 24/7 AC is in the living room, with the fish tank). I’m worried for next year when the government subsidies on electricity run out, because there’s no guarantee this isn’t the new normal. We had a day last week that was downright chilly, but it took a typhoon to do it, and the cool temperatures didn’t last.
Oh, and it’s the hottest summer on record for the entire country. We’re also expected to have “hotter than usual” temperatures through October. Some of this is attributable to this year’s “Super El Niño”, as they’ve dubbed it here, but climate change is definitely making itself known.
posted by lesser weasel at 8:42 PM on September 10, 2023
It’s been absolutely miserable since June. I’ll get home after work, and my bedroom is 32C without AC (the 24/7 AC is in the living room, with the fish tank). I’m worried for next year when the government subsidies on electricity run out, because there’s no guarantee this isn’t the new normal. We had a day last week that was downright chilly, but it took a typhoon to do it, and the cool temperatures didn’t last.
Oh, and it’s the hottest summer on record for the entire country. We’re also expected to have “hotter than usual” temperatures through October. Some of this is attributable to this year’s “Super El Niño”, as they’ve dubbed it here, but climate change is definitely making itself known.
posted by lesser weasel at 8:42 PM on September 10, 2023
Barely mid-Sep and it is already hitting high 30s C here, two months before the usual time for peak temps.
posted by Pouteria at 1:27 AM on September 11, 2023
posted by Pouteria at 1:27 AM on September 11, 2023
I'm sitting here bathed in sweat here in Amsterdam, Netherlands right now where we hit a record high for this date.
I posted that three days ago and we are still breaking records here.
We were at the Kinderdijk yesterday. It is a touristy place but we've never been there and wanted to see it. But it was too hot. After wandering around for about an hour, my spouse and I made the decision to pull out. We caught the water bus back to Rotterdam and got out of there.
As we were leaving, though, a large tourist group of Americans were arriving. Like 30 or 40 people all led by a young guide muttering a script into her mic. They were all walking out to the windmills for a walk of several hours. This is not usually a big deal for a September in the Netherlands but on this day it was absolutely dangerous. But it was clear nobody was empowered to put a stop to this, to make the decision to cancel this - so onward they marched. I told my wife that somebody, inevitably was going to collapse from the heat.
We all talk here about the difficulty of making large, institutional changes but it appears we cannot even make intelligent decisions on the smaller, more personal scale.
posted by vacapinta at 2:04 AM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I posted that three days ago and we are still breaking records here.
We were at the Kinderdijk yesterday. It is a touristy place but we've never been there and wanted to see it. But it was too hot. After wandering around for about an hour, my spouse and I made the decision to pull out. We caught the water bus back to Rotterdam and got out of there.
As we were leaving, though, a large tourist group of Americans were arriving. Like 30 or 40 people all led by a young guide muttering a script into her mic. They were all walking out to the windmills for a walk of several hours. This is not usually a big deal for a September in the Netherlands but on this day it was absolutely dangerous. But it was clear nobody was empowered to put a stop to this, to make the decision to cancel this - so onward they marched. I told my wife that somebody, inevitably was going to collapse from the heat.
We all talk here about the difficulty of making large, institutional changes but it appears we cannot even make intelligent decisions on the smaller, more personal scale.
posted by vacapinta at 2:04 AM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I keep wondering when annual schedules are going to start changing. Sports seasons, Olympics-style events, tourist seasons, school vacations... there are a lot of things that have traditionally been scheduled for summer but that's becoming less and less viable.
posted by trig at 3:20 AM on September 11, 2023
posted by trig at 3:20 AM on September 11, 2023
About immigration, there are estimates that yes immigration shall skyrocket, but less than you'd think. Instead, people shall choose to stay home (and eventually die). It's also plausible power failures cause more deaths in less adapted places sooner.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:46 PM on September 11, 2023
posted by jeffburdges at 12:46 PM on September 11, 2023
5 years ago and 20 years ago, thecincinnatikid (more)
posted by jeffburdges at 1:00 PM on September 11, 2023
posted by jeffburdges at 1:00 PM on September 11, 2023
Storm Daniel floods in Libya : At least 5,300 dead, 10k according to twitter. 7000 injuries. 20k displaced. 10k-100k missing.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:47 PM on September 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 1:47 PM on September 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Libya flooding is incomprehensible. Entire villages were obliterated. And the death toll is enormous.
Sadly it underscores the point I made earlier in this thread that you need to worry about government and infrastructure. The dams broke. They shouldn't have broken but years of mismanagement and corruption made this whole disaster exponentially worse.
posted by vacapinta at 2:10 AM on September 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sadly it underscores the point I made earlier in this thread that you need to worry about government and infrastructure. The dams broke. They shouldn't have broken but years of mismanagement and corruption made this whole disaster exponentially worse.
posted by vacapinta at 2:10 AM on September 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
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posted by Artw at 10:17 AM on September 7, 2023 [11 favorites]