Look for the helpers
September 25, 2023 2:33 PM Subscribe
A private US citizen was responsible for rescuing thousands of women from the Taliban's takeover of Afghanistan.
In August 2021, in a fatal calamity made inevitable by the Orange Menace's negotiations with terrorists, the US quickly withdrew its forces from Afghanistan as the NATO-backed government fell to the Taliban. Between 14 August and 31 August 2021, the US and its coalition partners evacuated more than 123,000 people.
The Taliban have since, predictably, imposed rights-violating policies that have created huge barriers to women’s and girls’ health and education, curtailed freedom of movement, expression, and association, and deprived many of earned income.
One private US citizen formerly linked with The Georgetown Institute for Women, Peace and Security compiled and maintained a "kill List" of 1,500 Afghan woman and their families who could be targets of the Taliban once the United States left the country.
This wealthy citizen arranged hundreds of buses and called the emir of Qatar to ask him to accompany buses carrying the women through Taliban checkpoints.
She also called Albanian Prime Minister Edi Rama, who remembered her family's work to protect Albanians in Kosovo in 1999, to ask him to help house Afghan women.
She also called Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for a favor, while making it clear that she wasn’t advocating on behalf of the U.S. government.
She called an aide to Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, asking if she could board refugees on a military transport plane destined for Kyiv.
This overstep earned her a stiff rebuke from the Biden administration, with which she formerly had a positive relationship.
"'What are you doing calling the Ukrainian government?,’ Jake Sullivan asked her.
'‘Well, I wouldn’t have to call, if you guys would,", she replied. Clinton then assured Sullivan she would coordinate with the Biden administration, though she had already made contact with other world leaders.
(post paraphrased from The Hill, from Franklin Foer's new book The Last Politician)
In August 2021, in a fatal calamity made inevitable by the Orange Menace's negotiations with terrorists, the US quickly withdrew its forces from Afghanistan as the NATO-backed government fell to the Taliban. Between 14 August and 31 August 2021, the US and its coalition partners evacuated more than 123,000 people.
The Taliban have since, predictably, imposed rights-violating policies that have created huge barriers to women’s and girls’ health and education, curtailed freedom of movement, expression, and association, and deprived many of earned income.
One private US citizen formerly linked with The Georgetown Institute for Women, Peace and Security compiled and maintained a "kill List" of 1,500 Afghan woman and their families who could be targets of the Taliban once the United States left the country.
This wealthy citizen arranged hundreds of buses and called the emir of Qatar to ask him to accompany buses carrying the women through Taliban checkpoints.
She also called Albanian Prime Minister Edi Rama, who remembered her family's work to protect Albanians in Kosovo in 1999, to ask him to help house Afghan women.
She also called Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau for a favor, while making it clear that she wasn’t advocating on behalf of the U.S. government.
She called an aide to Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, asking if she could board refugees on a military transport plane destined for Kyiv.
This overstep earned her a stiff rebuke from the Biden administration, with which she formerly had a positive relationship.
"'What are you doing calling the Ukrainian government?,’ Jake Sullivan asked her.
'‘Well, I wouldn’t have to call, if you guys would,", she replied. Clinton then assured Sullivan she would coordinate with the Biden administration, though she had already made contact with other world leaders.
(post paraphrased from The Hill, from Franklin Foer's new book The Last Politician)
I was puzzled why this citizen was not named in this post (except for once way at the bottom); RTFA tells you, and it is a DELICIOUS discovery.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:13 PM on September 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:13 PM on September 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
I mean, yeah, a private citizen... who had served in posts that filled her rolodex with numbers she could call and earned her enough power points to spend all around the world to get these things done.
I don't have this power. I don't think any private US citizens reading this comment have that power. There's something to be said for how the US had citizens serve in positions of power but that power sticks to you and puts you into a level of, basically, aristocracy that unless you're Jimmy Carter you don't escape from.
Still this is the mode I do prefer to see Hillary in. I am probably in the minority here but I don't need to see her appearing on shows making talky pronouncements of any kind. But her working behind the scenes to do real good in the world? Yes, Please. Bill Richardson has left us, so maybe she can do some of that work.
posted by hippybear at 3:26 PM on September 25, 2023 [15 favorites]
I don't have this power. I don't think any private US citizens reading this comment have that power. There's something to be said for how the US had citizens serve in positions of power but that power sticks to you and puts you into a level of, basically, aristocracy that unless you're Jimmy Carter you don't escape from.
Still this is the mode I do prefer to see Hillary in. I am probably in the minority here but I don't need to see her appearing on shows making talky pronouncements of any kind. But her working behind the scenes to do real good in the world? Yes, Please. Bill Richardson has left us, so maybe she can do some of that work.
posted by hippybear at 3:26 PM on September 25, 2023 [15 favorites]
I find it remarkable that in the year of our lord 2023, someone’s response to a story like this would be that they just don’t want to hear from Hillary Clinton. She should do this work, she should take it on herself to save the lives of thousands of people. Just as long as no one has to hear from her. Astounding.
posted by Il etait une fois at 3:39 PM on September 25, 2023 [85 favorites]
posted by Il etait une fois at 3:39 PM on September 25, 2023 [85 favorites]
But Her Emails
posted by Schadenfreude at 3:45 PM on September 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Schadenfreude at 3:45 PM on September 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Personally, I'd like to hear more from her.
posted by bz at 3:45 PM on September 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by bz at 3:45 PM on September 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
Just as long as no one has to hear from her.
Nope didn't say that, and don't you put those words in my mouth.
I was speaking about my own preferences. I find her manner irritating. And not "because she's a woman". I hold a lot of women in very high regard and listen to them often and seek them out. I just find her personally grating, is all.
It's just me saying this is what I prefer. Not making a blanket requirement that she not be heard or anything. Just for me. Alone. Me. A person who has a small opinion about a thing.
posted by hippybear at 3:47 PM on September 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
Nope didn't say that, and don't you put those words in my mouth.
I was speaking about my own preferences. I find her manner irritating. And not "because she's a woman". I hold a lot of women in very high regard and listen to them often and seek them out. I just find her personally grating, is all.
It's just me saying this is what I prefer. Not making a blanket requirement that she not be heard or anything. Just for me. Alone. Me. A person who has a small opinion about a thing.
posted by hippybear at 3:47 PM on September 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
She’s like Obi Wan Kenobi.
Striking her down just set her free.
posted by chronkite at 3:49 PM on September 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
Striking her down just set her free.
posted by chronkite at 3:49 PM on September 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
....Honestly, I didn't take hippybear's comment as being motivated by personal dislike of the woman, I took it more as a preference for people to take action instead of speak.
Personally, I'm good either way, and I gotta say I'm damn impressed by this news.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:51 PM on September 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
Personally, I'm good either way, and I gotta say I'm damn impressed by this news.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:51 PM on September 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
I read the post before the article and was expecting the woman to be McKenzie Scott (the former wife of Mr. Amazon).
Yet another reason to admire former Secretary Clinton.
posted by samthemander at 3:54 PM on September 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yet another reason to admire former Secretary Clinton.
posted by samthemander at 3:54 PM on September 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
The detail of this article about how having QR codes would make visa documents look more legit, according to (checks notes) Albanian government officials? Leading to appending a QR code from a bag of chips to the electronic visas of a thousand Afghan women and their families, people at extreme risk from the Taliban and needing an urgent solution? It is bizarre? But I will use it in my own low-stakes forgeries going forward.
posted by lizard music at 3:55 PM on September 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by lizard music at 3:55 PM on September 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
I really, strongly dislike the "one woman did this" framing. Hopefully that's just Insider being clickbait-y and not how the story is told in Foer's book.
Thousands of people were involved in trying to get Afghans to safety. It wasn't just one person — or one person and the unnamed individuals and organizations in their network — taking on the world with McGuyvered QR codes from chip bags.
That's how things actually get done outside of action movies and in the real world. To borrow a phrase from a private US citizen, it takes a village.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 4:02 PM on September 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
Thousands of people were involved in trying to get Afghans to safety. It wasn't just one person — or one person and the unnamed individuals and organizations in their network — taking on the world with McGuyvered QR codes from chip bags.
That's how things actually get done outside of action movies and in the real world. To borrow a phrase from a private US citizen, it takes a village.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 4:02 PM on September 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
The Taliban have since, predictably, imposed rights-violating policies that have created huge barriers to women’s and girls’ health and education, curtailed freedom of movement, expression, and association, and deprived many of earned income.
I hope it's not a derail, but this aspect has been so incredibly awful to watch. In 2020 I was helping my kid with English assignments based around Jameela, where the oppressiveness of the patriarchal culture around her is on full display. The book ends slightly hopefully, and yet now when I read what's happened in Afghanistan post 2021, it's pretty obvious that any semblance of progress has been lost.
It's great to see that heroic efforts saved as many women as Hilary et al were able to do; it's tragic the rest of the women in the country couldn't be saved as well.
posted by pulposus at 4:24 PM on September 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I hope it's not a derail, but this aspect has been so incredibly awful to watch. In 2020 I was helping my kid with English assignments based around Jameela, where the oppressiveness of the patriarchal culture around her is on full display. The book ends slightly hopefully, and yet now when I read what's happened in Afghanistan post 2021, it's pretty obvious that any semblance of progress has been lost.
It's great to see that heroic efforts saved as many women as Hilary et al were able to do; it's tragic the rest of the women in the country couldn't be saved as well.
posted by pulposus at 4:24 PM on September 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
A national treasure
posted by metatuesday at 4:41 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by metatuesday at 4:41 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Literally half the comments in this thread are anti Hillary Clinton. The most capable and qualified womanperson on the planet to be doing this type of thing and half the people here are grousing that she somehow isn't good enough? Spoiler alert: it's misogyny!
posted by Literaryhero at 5:21 PM on September 25, 2023 [62 favorites]
posted by Literaryhero at 5:21 PM on September 25, 2023 [62 favorites]
I really, strongly dislike the "one woman did this" framing. Hopefully that's just Insider being clickbait-y and not how the story is told in Foer's book.
I mean...look. I have friends in the Foreign Service and, along with many others, contributed modestly to helping fund escape for former embassy employees. I know a lot of people helped out in various ways as Kabul fell. But this was a major effort on Clinton's part, one she was under no obligation to make, and despite having been humiliated in politics in a way that would've justified her withdrawing from public life and spending the rest of her time on this earth smoking weed in Cabo. I don't think this rescue effort would've happened without her. She saved a lot of lives. Can we just recognize that?
posted by praemunire at 5:36 PM on September 25, 2023 [95 favorites]
I mean...look. I have friends in the Foreign Service and, along with many others, contributed modestly to helping fund escape for former embassy employees. I know a lot of people helped out in various ways as Kabul fell. But this was a major effort on Clinton's part, one she was under no obligation to make, and despite having been humiliated in politics in a way that would've justified her withdrawing from public life and spending the rest of her time on this earth smoking weed in Cabo. I don't think this rescue effort would've happened without her. She saved a lot of lives. Can we just recognize that?
posted by praemunire at 5:36 PM on September 25, 2023 [95 favorites]
She saved a lot of lives. Can we just recognize that?
Clinton deserves credit for doing a good, impossible, and important thing. But the organizations and individuals who were part of that same effort also deserve to be recognized in their own right, and not just as Clinton's allies and agents, or as nameless Qataris or Albanians.
If anything, the effort is more impressive in that it wasn't the sole initiative of a superhero but involved a massive collaboration by disparate actors. I just think there's a way to tell that tale, and acknowledge Clinton's role in it, without trying to make the whole thing read like a Marvel movie.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 5:59 PM on September 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Clinton deserves credit for doing a good, impossible, and important thing. But the organizations and individuals who were part of that same effort also deserve to be recognized in their own right, and not just as Clinton's allies and agents, or as nameless Qataris or Albanians.
If anything, the effort is more impressive in that it wasn't the sole initiative of a superhero but involved a massive collaboration by disparate actors. I just think there's a way to tell that tale, and acknowledge Clinton's role in it, without trying to make the whole thing read like a Marvel movie.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 5:59 PM on September 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
What praemunire said. Apart from the
...despite having been humiliated in politics in a way that would've justified her withdrawing from public life and spending the rest of her time on this earth smoking weed in Cabo part. I mean, JFHC! -- she got 2.9 million more votes than TFG in 2016, didn’t she? The fault was neither in her self nor her stars. I see no cause for humiliation in that.
posted by y2karl at 6:00 PM on September 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
...despite having been humiliated in politics in a way that would've justified her withdrawing from public life and spending the rest of her time on this earth smoking weed in Cabo part. I mean, JFHC! -- she got 2.9 million more votes than TFG in 2016, didn’t she? The fault was neither in her self nor her stars. I see no cause for humiliation in that.
posted by y2karl at 6:00 PM on September 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
What is it about Hillary Clinton that makes people lose all sense of proportion. She's an incredibly intelligent, talented diplomat who sucks at electoral politics and whose realpolitik stance ("Kissinger is a friend") many people find distasteful. She's a woman, which certainly invites misogyny, but she's also an individual with a long, well-documented history in public affairs, and it's certainly possible to approve it disapprove of her based on her individual merits.
posted by crosley at 6:04 PM on September 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by crosley at 6:04 PM on September 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
The article doesn't rule out the possibility that she was also smoking weed in Cabo at the same time.
"Justin. Justin! Listen to me!" Hillary snapped into the phone propped between her ear and her shoulder, both hands occupied rolling a joint of Cabo's finest. "I need those Canadian visas yesterday! I've got two hundred more women on the fucking Kill List who are gonna show up at the Albanian border in six hours!" Her expression narrowed in concentration, balancing the harsh realities of international diplomacy as a private citizen with the technical challenges of assembling a blunt that, judging by the disapproving expression that the nearby Secret Service agent was trying and failing to hide, was probably a little too large - but, fuck it, she was on vacation.
posted by allegedly at 6:08 PM on September 25, 2023 [36 favorites]
"Justin. Justin! Listen to me!" Hillary snapped into the phone propped between her ear and her shoulder, both hands occupied rolling a joint of Cabo's finest. "I need those Canadian visas yesterday! I've got two hundred more women on the fucking Kill List who are gonna show up at the Albanian border in six hours!" Her expression narrowed in concentration, balancing the harsh realities of international diplomacy as a private citizen with the technical challenges of assembling a blunt that, judging by the disapproving expression that the nearby Secret Service agent was trying and failing to hide, was probably a little too large - but, fuck it, she was on vacation.
posted by allegedly at 6:08 PM on September 25, 2023 [36 favorites]
I thought that this was a creative way to present this post, Dashy. I certainly didn't expect that it was someone who wasn't powerful and/or rich and/or famous, or someone acting in isolation without a lot of support and assistance. An effort like this needs influence and a whole lot of coordination. I sure would like to see it get more and deeper coverage than one point of interest in a book about Biden that a couple outlets have picked up.
posted by EvaDestruction at 6:32 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by EvaDestruction at 6:32 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't need to see her appearing on shows making talky pronouncements of any kind. But her working behind the scenes to do real good in the world? Yes, Please.
and
I hold a lot of women in very high regard and listen to them often and seek them out.
Oh, I'm sure everyone who takes something like this as an occasion to disparage Hilary Clinton and suggest that she remain in her place has a lot of women friends.
Just my opinion, of course.
posted by rpfields at 6:39 PM on September 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
and
I hold a lot of women in very high regard and listen to them often and seek them out.
Oh, I'm sure everyone who takes something like this as an occasion to disparage Hilary Clinton and suggest that she remain in her place has a lot of women friends.
Just my opinion, of course.
posted by rpfields at 6:39 PM on September 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
Literally not disparaging Hillary Clinton. Is it okay for me not to like her? I completely admire her and support all of her work and want to see her continuing to contribute in any way she feels she should. I just don't need to see those things. Personally. As a person who has an opinion.
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on September 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on September 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
crosley, I definitely agree - we can and should judge public figures based on their track records, and there is a lot of history in this particular case! I think what is really setting off people's misogyny alarms is saying that a woman should be quiet because she has a 'grating' or 'irritating' manner. So, as always, it depends.
posted by catcafe at 6:51 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by catcafe at 6:51 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Two of the posts I've made here recently with females have been summarily dismissed because one of the voices had too much vocal fry, which is in and of itself sort of a sexist accusation because men never have that leveled against them.
I mean, it's okay to not like someone. I don't dislike Hillary. I just don't tune in if she's on a talk show. That's literally all. I've seen one or two interviews with her where she's not in talk show/podium speech mode and have appreciated what she had to say much more than when she's got that "ON" going on.
Don't level woman hate at me for saying this. I'm not even saying "your favorite band sucks" about her. It's just me and this thing. I did note when I said it that it was probably a minority opinion.
posted by hippybear at 6:56 PM on September 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, it's okay to not like someone. I don't dislike Hillary. I just don't tune in if she's on a talk show. That's literally all. I've seen one or two interviews with her where she's not in talk show/podium speech mode and have appreciated what she had to say much more than when she's got that "ON" going on.
Don't level woman hate at me for saying this. I'm not even saying "your favorite band sucks" about her. It's just me and this thing. I did note when I said it that it was probably a minority opinion.
posted by hippybear at 6:56 PM on September 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Okay but how is "I don't like her voice and don't want to see her public appearances" a remotely relevant observation in the context of what the fucking article is about.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:57 PM on September 25, 2023 [55 favorites]
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 6:57 PM on September 25, 2023 [55 favorites]
How Hillary Clinton Went Undercover to Examine Race in Education. Hillary is no stranger to doing what's right when the spotlight is not shining on her.
posted by NoMich at 7:01 PM on September 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by NoMich at 7:01 PM on September 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
She's never going to shut up and go away, and good for her.
Hadn't heard of this at all - I'm not picking up the book immediately because I'm trying to wean myself off impulse Amazon purchases, but it's definitely going on the list.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:01 PM on September 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
Hadn't heard of this at all - I'm not picking up the book immediately because I'm trying to wean myself off impulse Amazon purchases, but it's definitely going on the list.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:01 PM on September 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
Perhaps what we should be asking is, if this is primarily the result of her having access to networks of power that any former high-level US politician would have, why weren't all the other former high-level US politicians also making those calls? Why are there not dozens of these stories out there?
posted by EllaEm at 7:48 PM on September 25, 2023 [63 favorites]
posted by EllaEm at 7:48 PM on September 25, 2023 [63 favorites]
My hero. Every day.
posted by Toddles at 7:59 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 7:59 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Don't level woman hate at me for saying this.
(deep breath)
You're talking about a public figure who is the subject of disproportionate hatred because she's a woman and because our society is misogynist. Even if you, an individual man, are completely free of misogyny*, your statements that you "just dislike her" are in that context - especially when they are based on vague complaints about her personal affect.
It's not reasonable to ask people to refrain from criticizing her actions, of course; there's a lot to criticize there. She is a complicated figure. But perhaps consider how necessary it is to complain about how you just don't like to listen to her talk.
* no one is
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:12 PM on September 25, 2023 [45 favorites]
(deep breath)
You're talking about a public figure who is the subject of disproportionate hatred because she's a woman and because our society is misogynist. Even if you, an individual man, are completely free of misogyny*, your statements that you "just dislike her" are in that context - especially when they are based on vague complaints about her personal affect.
It's not reasonable to ask people to refrain from criticizing her actions, of course; there's a lot to criticize there. She is a complicated figure. But perhaps consider how necessary it is to complain about how you just don't like to listen to her talk.
* no one is
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:12 PM on September 25, 2023 [45 favorites]
What an amazing achievement! I'm so glad that Hilary Clinton has the deep personal investment in doing good and the long history of public service needed to build the necessary connections and reputation to save so many people.
I was speaking about my own preferences. I find her manner irritating. And not "because she's a woman". I hold a lot of women in very high regard and listen to them often and seek them out. I just find her personally grating, is all.
hippybear, you came into a thread about a massive achievement, and immediately derailed it into saying how a woman shouldn't speak in public because you don't like how she talks, and when people pointed this out you played the 'but I have lots of female friends!' card. This is misogyny in action. This is classic, textbook misogyny, literally an example behavior that people use to explain what misogyny is.
posted by Ahniya at 8:50 PM on September 25, 2023 [50 favorites]
I was speaking about my own preferences. I find her manner irritating. And not "because she's a woman". I hold a lot of women in very high regard and listen to them often and seek them out. I just find her personally grating, is all.
hippybear, you came into a thread about a massive achievement, and immediately derailed it into saying how a woman shouldn't speak in public because you don't like how she talks, and when people pointed this out you played the 'but I have lots of female friends!' card. This is misogyny in action. This is classic, textbook misogyny, literally an example behavior that people use to explain what misogyny is.
posted by Ahniya at 8:50 PM on September 25, 2023 [50 favorites]
An amazing achievement and the best possible use I can think of for where to call in all those favours. I'm even more impressed that she didn't immediately call a press conference to tell everyone about how wonderful she was - I guess maybe she's shaken off the 'politician' mantle once and for all.
posted by dg at 9:16 PM on September 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dg at 9:16 PM on September 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
This derail sure could use a derailleur..Something you know, Secretary Clinton could do. Piling on hippybear is not that. I trace all of the animus people have against her to the 1992 6O Minutes interview when she saved her husband's candidacy from the burgeoning Gennifer Flowers scandal. She sacrificed her whole future in the process. Not because of what she said but rather how the evermore coprophagic evermore anal osculating anal osculators of the Republican party have spun it ever since. And don't forget the all the help from her greatest enemy in TFG's own poodlemaster. Putin is why Trump got elected and is around even still with all his slavering acolytes. 30 odd years of constant sliming have produced hippybear's all too well received opinion. Original thought was not involved at any step.
posted by y2karl at 9:41 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 9:41 PM on September 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
She's a damn hero as far as I'm concerned. This should be cheered.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:48 PM on September 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:48 PM on September 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I would like to invite everyone to take a moment to try to imagine subsequent retired Secretaries of State Rex Tillerson or Mike Pompeo spending their own time and energy and calling in favors from their presumably comparably formidable personal networks to accomplish something like this.
Rather difficult, bordering on impossible, isn't it?
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:23 PM on September 25, 2023 [30 favorites]
Rather difficult, bordering on impossible, isn't it?
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:23 PM on September 25, 2023 [30 favorites]
Mod note: Everyone, let's please drop hippybear as the focus of this thread now. Hippybear, et al: the article isn't about how personally likable Clinton is or how pleasant or irritating her manner is, it's about a specific historic news event, so please stick to discussing that, and try to avoid the all-too-common issue of sidetracking women's accomplishments or efforts by focusing on personal details about them (appearance, voice, weight, clothing, etc.) instead of their work.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:30 PM on September 25, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 10:30 PM on September 25, 2023 [32 favorites]
The story is incredible, and even then it's just one of a plethora of stories—probably few involving as many people, though—that happened when the US withdrew the way it did. Even in my far less potent circle of friends than Clinton, I saw some people who had served in AFG call in a whole lot of favors in order to get people they knew out. There are at least a few stories I've heard on good authority that probably can't be told in print for a while, because they involve people doing stuff that was technically… not legal. But it's pretty amazing what you can get done when a whole bunch of people, from active duty soldiers to retired generals to sketchy PMC dudes to crunchy NGO types, all decide they're willing to just fuck the paperwork and do the obviously necessary thing.
But even then, it wasn't nearly enough.
I think there will be a temptation to view the last days of the US presence in Afghanistan as a sort of plucky Dunkirk, because there were a lot of really amazing stories—the QR codes from the chips bags, people escaping capture by trusting random strangers on Signal chats, kids in Europe streaming webcam feeds of checkpoints, pilots chewing Dexedrine like it was WWIII—but what we will probably not hear about are all the people who didn't escape, and ended up being executed by the Taliban.
None of that is to take away from Clinton's accomplishment. But Jesus wept, what a clusterfuck.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:43 PM on September 25, 2023 [23 favorites]
But even then, it wasn't nearly enough.
I think there will be a temptation to view the last days of the US presence in Afghanistan as a sort of plucky Dunkirk, because there were a lot of really amazing stories—the QR codes from the chips bags, people escaping capture by trusting random strangers on Signal chats, kids in Europe streaming webcam feeds of checkpoints, pilots chewing Dexedrine like it was WWIII—but what we will probably not hear about are all the people who didn't escape, and ended up being executed by the Taliban.
None of that is to take away from Clinton's accomplishment. But Jesus wept, what a clusterfuck.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:43 PM on September 25, 2023 [23 favorites]
As I was reading through Dashy's post I was thinking to myself, I hope this person was coordinating with Clinton, because if there's one person who will without question put their whole apparatus at the disposal of this mission, it's her. I was almost disappointed to find out it WAS her, because that means there's nobody else who's doing this shit. It's only ever been her, working away at moving fucking mountains no matter how much or how little power she has, no matter whether she was in politics or not, no matter whether it was she who won the election or her husband or her nemesis. She alone has never, ever quit.
This one person ... out of (at least) dozens in USA alone who could be doing everything she does but just. can't. be. bothered. (Seriously, where the fuck is Obama? I'm ashamed when I think of how I used to consider him a worthy substitute for Hillary back in'08. SMH.)
posted by MiraK at 10:56 PM on September 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
This one person ... out of (at least) dozens in USA alone who could be doing everything she does but just. can't. be. bothered. (Seriously, where the fuck is Obama? I'm ashamed when I think of how I used to consider him a worthy substitute for Hillary back in'08. SMH.)
posted by MiraK at 10:56 PM on September 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
None of that is to take away from Clinton's accomplishment. But Jesus wept, what a clusterfuck.The fall of Kabul really was a great illustration of the cruelty and incompetence baked into imperial rule.
The photos of US troops flying out with their service dogs taking up seats that could have gone to Afghani colleagues, the CIA sponsored kill teams that hijacked refugee flights out of the country because they were already being hunted for their crimes. Civilians desperately mobbing the last few planes to take off.
As a former secretary of state Hillary definitely has some responsibility for that situation but at least she tried to get some women out.
posted by zymil at 1:34 AM on September 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Now do Libya.
posted by nofundy at 3:16 AM on September 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by nofundy at 3:16 AM on September 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, for real though, serious question: ARE there other politicians / well connected people who are out there constantly hustling, using their connections and networks and pull to save lives the way Hillary is doing?
All I can think of are, like, billionaire philanthropists like Bill Gates doing a big push to eradicate malaria, but he's not a politician. Hmm I guess Al Gore is heavily involved in environmental activism but I don't think he's done anything much since 2006 or so when his movie came out, right?? Ooh Jimmy Carter would count, he was heavily involved in rebuilding after Katrina and IIRC his charitable foundation eradicated Guinea worm disease as of about 10 years ago.
Who else? Which other politician or former politician is out there saving lives on a grand scale? Most of them seem to just be doing vanity projects and the decidedly dainty "philanthropy" of ~raising awareness~ with photo ops and Netflix shows, not directly getting their hands dirty.
posted by MiraK at 6:25 AM on September 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
All I can think of are, like, billionaire philanthropists like Bill Gates doing a big push to eradicate malaria, but he's not a politician. Hmm I guess Al Gore is heavily involved in environmental activism but I don't think he's done anything much since 2006 or so when his movie came out, right?? Ooh Jimmy Carter would count, he was heavily involved in rebuilding after Katrina and IIRC his charitable foundation eradicated Guinea worm disease as of about 10 years ago.
Who else? Which other politician or former politician is out there saving lives on a grand scale? Most of them seem to just be doing vanity projects and the decidedly dainty "philanthropy" of ~raising awareness~ with photo ops and Netflix shows, not directly getting their hands dirty.
posted by MiraK at 6:25 AM on September 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
I really, strongly dislike the "one woman did this" framing. Hopefully that's just Insider being clickbait-y and not how the story is told in Foer's book.
Don't hold your breath. I have Foer filed alongside Thomas Friedman in my brain.
posted by hoyland at 6:37 AM on September 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Don't hold your breath. I have Foer filed alongside Thomas Friedman in my brain.
posted by hoyland at 6:37 AM on September 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
The most capable and qualified womanperson on the planet to be doing this type of thing and half the people here are grousing that she somehow isn't good enough? Spoiler alert: it's misogyny!
I'm going to say this, and I want to be very clear when I say this, that this isn't a drive by, and I'm not saying this from a position of saying she's not good enough. I have experience working near many talented people in the diplomatic, foreign policy, NGO, or intelligence and military services. Hillary Clinton is absolutely not the most capable and qualified woman or person on the planet to be doing this type of thing. It's not because she's incapable or unqualified, but because there are many, many, phenomenally talented and capable people, and women, throughout the world who do this sort of thing. She is, however, one of the most well-connected, and personally wealthy, who is not actively serving in positions where she is prohibited from utilizing personal connections in such a fashion. I applaud her for doing what she did, and I think it's a good thing that she did. But because other people helping didn't have access to a Rolodex like hers doesn't make them one bit less talented.
And that's actually a good and comforting thing. Because everyone was trying to do this work. It seemed like half of the veterans I knew were trying to leverage every connection they had to smuggle people out, or fund people who were doing so. I don't think those people are any less heroic or amazing because they spent their meager savings getting one person out. They just weren't in a position to do more. Clinton, by the grace of God, was in a position to do more, and she rose to that challenge. But as a few others have said above, I think that we do this kind of work a disservice by lifting up one individual as a light. It's not because it denies them their praise. If they're a good person, they don't need that praise; they already have their reward in the lives they have saved, the praise is irrelevant. But because it makes people think that they aren't enough to also do that work, because they aren't as wealthy, or connected, or powerful. And they are. We all are.
posted by corb at 7:08 AM on September 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
I'm going to say this, and I want to be very clear when I say this, that this isn't a drive by, and I'm not saying this from a position of saying she's not good enough. I have experience working near many talented people in the diplomatic, foreign policy, NGO, or intelligence and military services. Hillary Clinton is absolutely not the most capable and qualified woman or person on the planet to be doing this type of thing. It's not because she's incapable or unqualified, but because there are many, many, phenomenally talented and capable people, and women, throughout the world who do this sort of thing. She is, however, one of the most well-connected, and personally wealthy, who is not actively serving in positions where she is prohibited from utilizing personal connections in such a fashion. I applaud her for doing what she did, and I think it's a good thing that she did. But because other people helping didn't have access to a Rolodex like hers doesn't make them one bit less talented.
And that's actually a good and comforting thing. Because everyone was trying to do this work. It seemed like half of the veterans I knew were trying to leverage every connection they had to smuggle people out, or fund people who were doing so. I don't think those people are any less heroic or amazing because they spent their meager savings getting one person out. They just weren't in a position to do more. Clinton, by the grace of God, was in a position to do more, and she rose to that challenge. But as a few others have said above, I think that we do this kind of work a disservice by lifting up one individual as a light. It's not because it denies them their praise. If they're a good person, they don't need that praise; they already have their reward in the lives they have saved, the praise is irrelevant. But because it makes people think that they aren't enough to also do that work, because they aren't as wealthy, or connected, or powerful. And they are. We all are.
posted by corb at 7:08 AM on September 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
I hate that my internalized misogyny makes me have to take a deep steadying breath before saying that I admire, adore, and endlessly respect Hillary Clinton, while other people have no shame screaming their adoration for... let's just say "other people."
So I'll say it, I fucking love Hillary Clinton, I am so proud of so many things (NOT EVERYTHING) she's done, and I am glad she's leveraging her power to get this work done. She's a mensch!
posted by obfuscation at 8:58 AM on September 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
So I'll say it, I fucking love Hillary Clinton, I am so proud of so many things (NOT EVERYTHING) she's done, and I am glad she's leveraging her power to get this work done. She's a mensch!
posted by obfuscation at 8:58 AM on September 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
I wonder if this was someone other than HRC.. a different woman, a man.. would this extended (and very familiar) commentary persist? I think it's okay to place a spotlight on one person, we can heap praises on a person and it doesn't always need to be qualified. Unless you happen to be Hillary Rodham Clinton and then, apparently the footnotes and asterisks pour out.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:22 AM on September 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 9:22 AM on September 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
(with apologies to Joanna Russ)
HOW TO SUPPRESS WOMEN'S SUCCESSES IN THE POLITICAL AND PUBLIC SPHERE
1. Prohibitions
Prevent women from access to votes and electoral rolls, restrict women from halls of influence, utterly deny women the kind of hagiographic media coverage men get which might give her influence in the public sphere.
2. Bad Faith
Unconsciously create social systems that ignore or devalue women's work and achievements in the public sphere.
3. Denial of Agency
Deny that a woman did it. She had help. She had a whole team, hundreds and hundreds of people working on the same goal. *They* did it, it was them all along. Whatever little she did was completely worthless and/or insignificant.
4. Pollution of Agency
Show that their public service works are immodest (she didn't do it alone! stop praising her for it!), not actually public service (she's a corporate democratic shill and a corrupt politician, never a public servant at all, not in the true sense of the word), or shouldn't have been written about (nothing special about her! *everyone* does this extraordinary thing, they just happened to fail while she succeeded, and she only succeeded by the grace of God).
5. The Double Standard of Content
Claim that one set of public service works is inherently more valuable than another. Some folks are just more straightforward and have purer motivations. Anything an average war veteran did to try to help Afghan women, for instance, is simply more morally admissible into the annals of heroism than the work of this woman.
6. False Categorizing
Incorrectly categorize women public servants as the wives of male public servants, corporate shills, Democratic whores, murderers of random former friends, etc. She's not REALLY a philanthropist who saved 1500 women, she's actually a war profiteer.
7. Isolation
Create a myth of isolated achievement that claims that only some other woman is considered a TRUE public servant capable of acts of TRUE service. (If that other woman ever runs for high office, immediately switch your example to a different, possibly even hypothetical, woman.)
8. Anomalousness
Assert that the woman in question is eccentric or atypical. She was super privileged and very well connected through no effort of her own - maybe it's the grace of God, maybe it's Maybelline. Also she has such a grating voice and her manner is irritating and she's so uncharismatic, nobody can stand *this* woman. Even people who love and respect and adore women feel this way about her, just her. A peculiar and uniquely aversive woman.
9. Lack of Models
Reinforce a male dominance in history and politics in order to cut off women public servants' inspiration and role models. Only men are likeable. Only men are charismatic. Only men are honorable. Only men's motives are pure. Only men's work can be celebrated without caveats.
10. Responses
Force women to meet impossible and self-contradictory standards of perfection to be celebrated. Did she succeed at saving 1500 women? Pshaw that's only because God put her in a position of power. Did she seek out that position of power and hold on to it ruthlessly against all odds? Well there you go, she's obviously corrupt and her help is tainted, cannot be counted. Did she have a team? Aha, so she didn't do jack shit, her people did all the work. Did she lead that team and take risks and personally take bold steps to make this happen? Ugh what a self-important self-aggrandizing limelight-seeking bitch.
11. Aesthetics
Popularize aesthetic works that contain demeaning roles and characterizations of women. Oh, I know, let's draw another caricature of her cackling. Let's make a YouTube mashup of her grimaces.
posted by MiraK at 10:29 AM on September 26, 2023 [32 favorites]
HOW TO SUPPRESS WOMEN'S SUCCESSES IN THE POLITICAL AND PUBLIC SPHERE
1. Prohibitions
Prevent women from access to votes and electoral rolls, restrict women from halls of influence, utterly deny women the kind of hagiographic media coverage men get which might give her influence in the public sphere.
2. Bad Faith
Unconsciously create social systems that ignore or devalue women's work and achievements in the public sphere.
3. Denial of Agency
Deny that a woman did it. She had help. She had a whole team, hundreds and hundreds of people working on the same goal. *They* did it, it was them all along. Whatever little she did was completely worthless and/or insignificant.
4. Pollution of Agency
Show that their public service works are immodest (she didn't do it alone! stop praising her for it!), not actually public service (she's a corporate democratic shill and a corrupt politician, never a public servant at all, not in the true sense of the word), or shouldn't have been written about (nothing special about her! *everyone* does this extraordinary thing, they just happened to fail while she succeeded, and she only succeeded by the grace of God).
5. The Double Standard of Content
Claim that one set of public service works is inherently more valuable than another. Some folks are just more straightforward and have purer motivations. Anything an average war veteran did to try to help Afghan women, for instance, is simply more morally admissible into the annals of heroism than the work of this woman.
6. False Categorizing
Incorrectly categorize women public servants as the wives of male public servants, corporate shills, Democratic whores, murderers of random former friends, etc. She's not REALLY a philanthropist who saved 1500 women, she's actually a war profiteer.
7. Isolation
Create a myth of isolated achievement that claims that only some other woman is considered a TRUE public servant capable of acts of TRUE service. (If that other woman ever runs for high office, immediately switch your example to a different, possibly even hypothetical, woman.)
8. Anomalousness
Assert that the woman in question is eccentric or atypical. She was super privileged and very well connected through no effort of her own - maybe it's the grace of God, maybe it's Maybelline. Also she has such a grating voice and her manner is irritating and she's so uncharismatic, nobody can stand *this* woman. Even people who love and respect and adore women feel this way about her, just her. A peculiar and uniquely aversive woman.
9. Lack of Models
Reinforce a male dominance in history and politics in order to cut off women public servants' inspiration and role models. Only men are likeable. Only men are charismatic. Only men are honorable. Only men's motives are pure. Only men's work can be celebrated without caveats.
10. Responses
Force women to meet impossible and self-contradictory standards of perfection to be celebrated. Did she succeed at saving 1500 women? Pshaw that's only because God put her in a position of power. Did she seek out that position of power and hold on to it ruthlessly against all odds? Well there you go, she's obviously corrupt and her help is tainted, cannot be counted. Did she have a team? Aha, so she didn't do jack shit, her people did all the work. Did she lead that team and take risks and personally take bold steps to make this happen? Ugh what a self-important self-aggrandizing limelight-seeking bitch.
11. Aesthetics
Popularize aesthetic works that contain demeaning roles and characterizations of women. Oh, I know, let's draw another caricature of her cackling. Let's make a YouTube mashup of her grimaces.
posted by MiraK at 10:29 AM on September 26, 2023 [32 favorites]
I wonder if this was someone other than HRC.. a different woman, a man.. would this extended (and very familiar) commentary persist?
No, of course not. Hillary Clinton is one of a handful of women in 90s American politics upon whom a ridiculous amount of misogyny was heaped. It's not simply that she's a woman, though that obviously doesn't help, but that she's Hillary Clinton. (See also: Janet Reno. Why was Janet Reno a punchline? I don't even know what the joke was supposed to be, but even as a kid with limited exposure to American culture, I understood we were supposed to be laughing at Janet Reno.)
posted by hoyland at 10:45 AM on September 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
No, of course not. Hillary Clinton is one of a handful of women in 90s American politics upon whom a ridiculous amount of misogyny was heaped. It's not simply that she's a woman, though that obviously doesn't help, but that she's Hillary Clinton. (See also: Janet Reno. Why was Janet Reno a punchline? I don't even know what the joke was supposed to be, but even as a kid with limited exposure to American culture, I understood we were supposed to be laughing at Janet Reno.)
posted by hoyland at 10:45 AM on September 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why was Janet Reno a punchline? I don't even know what the joke was supposed to be, but even as a kid with limited exposure to American culture, I understood we were supposed to be laughing at Janet Reno.
I think there was an undertone of homophobia going on there....she was unmarried and childless, and wasn't like a FOX news conventionally "pretty" person, and in the 90s that was enough to get people whispering about "do you think she's.....?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:50 AM on September 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think there was an undertone of homophobia going on there....she was unmarried and childless, and wasn't like a FOX news conventionally "pretty" person, and in the 90s that was enough to get people whispering about "do you think she's.....?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:50 AM on September 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
I wonder if this was someone other than HRC.. a different woman, a man.. would this extended (and very familiar) commentary persist?
The point of the extended commentary is that it serves as a basis for the shortcuts that come later. So when pundits arrive to say that Kamala is so accomplished and smart and good at her job, but they just don't like her .... the rest just fills itself in, you know what to do.
We didn't just lose out on Hillary. We've lost out on generations of capable, hypersmart women.
posted by Dashy at 11:56 AM on September 26, 2023 [18 favorites]
The point of the extended commentary is that it serves as a basis for the shortcuts that come later. So when pundits arrive to say that Kamala is so accomplished and smart and good at her job, but they just don't like her .... the rest just fills itself in, you know what to do.
We didn't just lose out on Hillary. We've lost out on generations of capable, hypersmart women.
posted by Dashy at 11:56 AM on September 26, 2023 [18 favorites]
When this happened there was four other living former Secretaries of State roaming the nation:
All, presumably*, of equal talent and with essentially the same access to relevant resources to Clinton. Yet Clinton, uniquely, did something in the situation. Almost a decade after her service as Secretary. Sh's been a private citizen for years. Years and years.
I celebrate Hillary Clinton's unique contribution toward actually helping people who desperately needed it for no apparent reason other than to do the right thing. With the understanding that comes from being an actual adult that she did not do this singlehandedly, like some superman swooping in and personally carrying each person out of Afghanistan.
Why is it so hard to recognize a women leader, when they do leadership things. Seriously. Hillary Clinton lead the effort to save these people.
Now just imagine the reaction is she had said a peep about this.
* I mean, no they fucking don't, but I am assuming a base level of skill that I would expect each of them to be able to grasp the full implications of the actual situation and have the ability to organize complex operations in uncertain circumstances.
posted by zenon at 12:51 PM on September 26, 2023 [23 favorites]
- Condoleezza Rice
- John Kerry
- Rex Tillerson
- Mike Pompeo
- John J. Sullivan
All, presumably*, of equal talent and with essentially the same access to relevant resources to Clinton. Yet Clinton, uniquely, did something in the situation. Almost a decade after her service as Secretary. Sh's been a private citizen for years. Years and years.
I celebrate Hillary Clinton's unique contribution toward actually helping people who desperately needed it for no apparent reason other than to do the right thing. With the understanding that comes from being an actual adult that she did not do this singlehandedly, like some superman swooping in and personally carrying each person out of Afghanistan.
Why is it so hard to recognize a women leader, when they do leadership things. Seriously. Hillary Clinton lead the effort to save these people.
Now just imagine the reaction is she had said a peep about this.
* I mean, no they fucking don't, but I am assuming a base level of skill that I would expect each of them to be able to grasp the full implications of the actual situation and have the ability to organize complex operations in uncertain circumstances.
posted by zenon at 12:51 PM on September 26, 2023 [23 favorites]
I think there was an undertone of homophobia going on there....she was unmarried and childless, and wasn't like a FOX news conventionally "pretty" person, and in the 90s that was enough to get people whispering about "do you think she's.....?"
The (awful) joke was almost always that she was too masculine presenting for a woman. She had a hell of a lot more grace towards it than it ever deserved, see her quote here, "'I think people are having fun.' As for SNL’s take, 'I thought it was just kind of a spoof of this 6-foot-1 big old girl,' she told the Post in 1998. 'I can’t figure out why anybody’s that interested in me.'"
Of course, a culture with a misogynist streak a mile wide puts a lot of pressure on her to appear to take it in stride, so who knows if that reflects her real feelings.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:38 PM on September 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
The (awful) joke was almost always that she was too masculine presenting for a woman. She had a hell of a lot more grace towards it than it ever deserved, see her quote here, "'I think people are having fun.' As for SNL’s take, 'I thought it was just kind of a spoof of this 6-foot-1 big old girl,' she told the Post in 1998. 'I can’t figure out why anybody’s that interested in me.'"
Of course, a culture with a misogynist streak a mile wide puts a lot of pressure on her to appear to take it in stride, so who knows if that reflects her real feelings.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:38 PM on September 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
HRC is "linked" to The Georgetown Institute for Women, Peace and Security because she and John J. DeGioia (Georgetown U's president since 2001) launched it in 2011. Rodham Clinton serves as honorary chair.
More on the Institute's Onward for Afghan Women initiative.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:06 PM on September 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
More on the Institute's Onward for Afghan Women initiative.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:06 PM on September 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Unbelievable to see the the Jake Sullivan reprimand. The government is clearly overwhelmed and is sacrificing this part of their duty. A women who has really, really put in her time for the Democratic party and is obviously not out to undermine Biden (or she would have already) and is using her personal power and connections to help and she gets a reprimand?! I hope tone just isn't coming through and he was saying it in jest or something.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:47 AM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:47 AM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyway, when Jimmy Carter's work with Habitat for Humanity is spoken of with admiration and reverence, no one jumps in to point out he didn't build those houses all by himself.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:49 AM on September 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:49 AM on September 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
> when Jimmy Carter's work with Habitat for Humanity is spoken of with admiration and reverence, no one jumps in to point out he didn't build those houses all by himself.
Oh hush. He just happened to find himself with a hammer in his hand by the grace of God. Stop praising him. He doesn't need or deserve praise. I know many people who are far more morally worthy than a scummy politician, people who didn't have God's grace magically puppeteering their arms into hammering nails in, yet they too tried to help the homeless (though they failed of course). They are the true heroes.
posted by MiraK at 10:14 AM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh hush. He just happened to find himself with a hammer in his hand by the grace of God. Stop praising him. He doesn't need or deserve praise. I know many people who are far more morally worthy than a scummy politician, people who didn't have God's grace magically puppeteering their arms into hammering nails in, yet they too tried to help the homeless (though they failed of course). They are the true heroes.
posted by MiraK at 10:14 AM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
He just happened to find himself with a hammer in his hand by the grace of God. Stop praising him. He doesn't need or deserve praise.
Er....Emmy wasn't praising Jimmy Carter, she was pointing out that OTHER people praised Jimmy Carter without bystanders nitpicking the praise to death, the way people are doing with HRC's work here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:17 AM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Er....Emmy wasn't praising Jimmy Carter, she was pointing out that OTHER people praised Jimmy Carter without bystanders nitpicking the praise to death, the way people are doing with HRC's work here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:17 AM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know! I was paraphrasing a criticism of Hillary from upthread to show how silly it sounds.
> everyone was trying to do this work. It seemed like half of the veterans I knew were trying to leverage every connection they had to smuggle people out, or fund people who were doing so. I don't think those people are any less heroic or amazing ... They just weren't in a position to do more. Clinton, by the grace of God, was in a position to do more ... I think that we do this kind of work a disservice by lifting up one individual as a light. It's not because it denies them their praise. If they're a good person, they don't need that praise ...
posted by MiraK at 10:19 AM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
> everyone was trying to do this work. It seemed like half of the veterans I knew were trying to leverage every connection they had to smuggle people out, or fund people who were doing so. I don't think those people are any less heroic or amazing ... They just weren't in a position to do more. Clinton, by the grace of God, was in a position to do more ... I think that we do this kind of work a disservice by lifting up one individual as a light. It's not because it denies them their praise. If they're a good person, they don't need that praise ...
posted by MiraK at 10:19 AM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean, I don’t know why you’re so annoyed about my statement but I assure you I am far from uncritical of Jimmy Carter. People can, in fact, have criticisms of hero-worship without being aggro against your specific person.
posted by corb at 11:02 AM on September 28, 2023
posted by corb at 11:02 AM on September 28, 2023
Yes, let’s all remember the real villain in this story, Jimmy Carter.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:21 AM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:21 AM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Y'all I think Jimmy Carter was just an analogy let's drop that
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:17 PM on September 28, 2023
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:17 PM on September 28, 2023
Yes, Emmy Rae obviously made an analogy and MiraK obviously made a joke.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:51 PM on September 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:51 PM on September 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
All this silencing of the true patriot Billy Carter has me really bummed. /hamburger /Billybeer
posted by riverlife at 1:50 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by riverlife at 1:50 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hillary Clinton on supporting Ukraine as Putin aims to undermine democracy
posted by kliuless at 9:41 PM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kliuless at 9:41 PM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
carterland:* "Filmmakers Will and Jim Pattiz detail how he led by example on energy conservation, putting on sweaters rather than cranking up the heat, and doing something newscaster Walter Cronkite had to explain to viewers in 1979 because it sounded like science fiction – capturing solar energy by putting solar panels on the roof of the White House."
"In the year 2000," Carter predicted as he showed off the panels, "the solar water heater behind me ... will still be here, supplying cheap, efficient energy."posted by kliuless at 9:56 PM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
It was not. The heater and the solar panels were all removed by President Ronald Reagan a few years later.
"What would life have been like if we had continued to invest in a clean energy economy?" wonders conservation activist and former Patagonia CEO Rose Marcario in the film.
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posted by Dashy at 3:12 PM on September 25, 2023 [3 favorites]