It’s like stealing joy.
September 28, 2023 4:04 PM Subscribe
16-year-old boy arrested after famous tree ‘deliberately felled’ A famous tree that has stood sentinel on Britain’s Roman-built Hadrian’s Wall for more than 200 years has been “deliberately felled” in what authorities have called an “act of vandalism.” The sycamore tree, located in the Northumberland National Park in northern England, was made famous to millions around the world when it appeared in Kevin Costner’s 1991 blockbuster film “Robin Hood: Prince Of Thieves.”
I'll never understand how anyone, child or adult, could do something like this.
Life provides no end to the running list of travesties we commit on one another and everything we can lay hands on, so I'm sure I'll have plenty of other opportunities to continue to be mystified.
posted by kbanas at 4:14 PM on September 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Life provides no end to the running list of travesties we commit on one another and everything we can lay hands on, so I'm sure I'll have plenty of other opportunities to continue to be mystified.
posted by kbanas at 4:14 PM on September 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is sad, but a new tree will grow. I wonder what fantastic tributes will be fashioned from the wood of the old one.
posted by phooky at 4:23 PM on September 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by phooky at 4:23 PM on September 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Based on the picture if that was a 16 year old they did a really clean felling with a chainsaw that had a very long bar.
posted by Ferreous at 4:25 PM on September 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 4:25 PM on September 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
Though most people have the internet now to voice their malice, hatred, etc., there are still those who lash out and destroy things that mean something to other people. This immature behavior has been with us forever. There are no excuses for it. Hopefully someone there will educate this boy, and I assume it was a boy, as to the real damage he committed. But any media attention will just encourage more of the same as there are loads of people out there who are looking for their own ill gained notoriety.
posted by njohnson23 at 4:26 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 4:26 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's also really stupid - even experienced lumberjacks get smooshed every so often, and there's no way this kid was an experienced lumberjack. Cutting a tree after dark, possibly while drunk? It could have fallen on somebody - either the vandal themselves or on the presumably giggling accomplices.
posted by Mogur at 4:27 PM on September 28, 2023
posted by Mogur at 4:27 PM on September 28, 2023
I lived in this area for ten years, and I’ve visited this tree. It’s in a sheltered spot on a pretty blowy, cold area (Wikipedia has some images).
The north east has some extremely deprived areas. This is the part of England that really suffered under Thatcher and successive governments. In American terms, it’s like a rust belt area, although this is probably a great simplification. A lot of young people ended up really alienated when I lived there, and I can only think that austerity and a withdrawal of state funding would have made things even worse. This isn’t an excuse, I’m just trying to rationalise, from my personal experience, why somebody would do this.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:35 PM on September 28, 2023 [31 favorites]
The north east has some extremely deprived areas. This is the part of England that really suffered under Thatcher and successive governments. In American terms, it’s like a rust belt area, although this is probably a great simplification. A lot of young people ended up really alienated when I lived there, and I can only think that austerity and a withdrawal of state funding would have made things even worse. This isn’t an excuse, I’m just trying to rationalise, from my personal experience, why somebody would do this.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:35 PM on September 28, 2023 [31 favorites]
So this whole fuss is about a tree that people feel attached to because of a Kevin Costner movie? Am I understanding this [shock horror] travesty correctly?
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 4:40 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 4:40 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would say that you don’t understand correctly, nor do you seem to be making a strenuous effort to do so.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:44 PM on September 28, 2023 [202 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:44 PM on September 28, 2023 [202 favorites]
not just everyday big moggies,
. . . or, perhaps, the fuss is over thoughtless destruction of a very old tree that had meaning beyond a stupid movie . . . Perhaps the news writers were just trying to give an easy context for people to connect to . . . it's a ridiculous, small-scale monstrous act of destruction, and that hurts people in a significant way . . .
~sigh~
posted by pt68 at 4:46 PM on September 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
. . . or, perhaps, the fuss is over thoughtless destruction of a very old tree that had meaning beyond a stupid movie . . . Perhaps the news writers were just trying to give an easy context for people to connect to . . . it's a ridiculous, small-scale monstrous act of destruction, and that hurts people in a significant way . . .
~sigh~
posted by pt68 at 4:46 PM on September 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
I think the Kevin Costner angle is just to say that if you're a North American (it is a link from CNN after all) of a certain age you may have seen the tree even if you didn't know it. The real impact of this I imagine would be local to the UK where it was named English Tree of the Year in 2016.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:47 PM on September 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:47 PM on September 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
It's a roughly three hundred year old tree that's located on a UNESCO World Heritage site. It's integral to the tourism industry upon which the town relies. This is both an ecological and material disaster.
It's not about the tree being in a Hollywood movie.
posted by nightrecordings at 4:48 PM on September 28, 2023 [84 favorites]
It's not about the tree being in a Hollywood movie.
posted by nightrecordings at 4:48 PM on September 28, 2023 [84 favorites]
I think a similar cultural moment is when the Joshua Tree from the U2 album was cut down several years ago. It had probably been there for 200 years, also.
posted by hippybear at 4:49 PM on September 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:49 PM on September 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'll never understand how anyone, child or adult, could do something like this.
A 16-year-old. It makes me angry, but the offender has probably not received much care in his life, either.
posted by praemunire at 4:49 PM on September 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
A 16-year-old. It makes me angry, but the offender has probably not received much care in his life, either.
posted by praemunire at 4:49 PM on September 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Ugh, this is depressing from every angle.
posted by gwint at 4:49 PM on September 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by gwint at 4:49 PM on September 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
It takes very little time to not sneer at something people are sad about.
posted by maryellenreads at 4:50 PM on September 28, 2023 [73 favorites]
posted by maryellenreads at 4:50 PM on September 28, 2023 [73 favorites]
I'm sick of morons .
posted by hortense at 4:52 PM on September 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by hortense at 4:52 PM on September 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
anyone know the law in that area as to the punishment he could receive ?
posted by robbyrobs at 4:52 PM on September 28, 2023
posted by robbyrobs at 4:52 PM on September 28, 2023
Imagine being that kid. Of course, he’s a kid, kids make (sometimes grave) mistakes, especially if their day-to-day environment is hopeless or unstable. For for his future: How do you move past this?
Maybe that was the point, in his mind?
posted by samthemander at 4:52 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe that was the point, in his mind?
posted by samthemander at 4:52 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know there are far worse things going on in the world but this really bothers me. what a pointless disgusting act of destruction.
posted by supermedusa at 4:53 PM on September 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 4:53 PM on September 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
There's never any shortage of jerks...
posted by jim in austin at 4:54 PM on September 28, 2023
posted by jim in austin at 4:54 PM on September 28, 2023
What a sad, senseless situation.
... there's no way this kid was an experienced lumberjack
They haven't actually charged him with the offense and the way the police statement is worded sounds like there are others at least involved and someone else may be the actual wielder of the chainsaw.
posted by dg at 4:56 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
... there's no way this kid was an experienced lumberjack
They haven't actually charged him with the offense and the way the police statement is worded sounds like there are others at least involved and someone else may be the actual wielder of the chainsaw.
posted by dg at 4:56 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
anyone know the law in that area as to the punishment he could receive ?
New Sentencing Guidelines For Offenders Who Cause Damage To Heritage and Cultural Assets. 2019
posted by clavdivs at 4:58 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
New Sentencing Guidelines For Offenders Who Cause Damage To Heritage and Cultural Assets. 2019
posted by clavdivs at 4:58 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah, the 16-year-old might have been involved, but there's no way that was cut down without an experienced logger.
posted by paper scissors sock at 4:59 PM on September 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by paper scissors sock at 4:59 PM on September 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Coming in to say I work with chainsaws, and that's an very clean fell for anyone, let alone a child. There has to be more to come on this.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:01 PM on September 28, 2023 [46 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:01 PM on September 28, 2023 [46 favorites]
I wondered about that too, Fiasco da Gama. I don't work with chainsaws but it looked a hell of a lot cleaner than anything we've ever managed on a Christmas tree farm, and those trunks are much narrower and easier to cut through.
posted by eirias at 5:06 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eirias at 5:06 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
A couple years ago, there was a spate of vandalistic tree-felling in London parks. Eventually they arrested someone and it stopped.
Kids in the countryside, especially boys, get bored and mean and destructive. Last job I had in a rural area, I spent some time in a communal garden in the small village where I was staying. I talked with the woman named Meg who maintained the garden with occasional help from volunteers. She said the local kids would break in after dark, take the benches and throw them in the river, rip up everything she'd planted, set fires. No concern from the parents and no consequences, so they just kept doing it.
Meanwhile, mature trees take longer than a human lifetime to grow, and can stand for centuries. They're a habitat for all sorts of creatures: birds, insects, rodents, lichens, fungus, moss.
And can be cut down in moments by some asshole with a saw.
Have to hope a new volunteer springs up from the stump. But even so, I likely won't live to see it grow even half as high.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:08 PM on September 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
Kids in the countryside, especially boys, get bored and mean and destructive. Last job I had in a rural area, I spent some time in a communal garden in the small village where I was staying. I talked with the woman named Meg who maintained the garden with occasional help from volunteers. She said the local kids would break in after dark, take the benches and throw them in the river, rip up everything she'd planted, set fires. No concern from the parents and no consequences, so they just kept doing it.
Meanwhile, mature trees take longer than a human lifetime to grow, and can stand for centuries. They're a habitat for all sorts of creatures: birds, insects, rodents, lichens, fungus, moss.
And can be cut down in moments by some asshole with a saw.
Have to hope a new volunteer springs up from the stump. But even so, I likely won't live to see it grow even half as high.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:08 PM on September 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
This is both an ecological and material disaster.
In what sense is this an ecological disaster? I’m really not trying to be flip about this, and clearly Brits have some very strong feelings about the tree, but I’m trying and failing to see how this could possibly be an “ecological disaster”.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 5:08 PM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
In what sense is this an ecological disaster? I’m really not trying to be flip about this, and clearly Brits have some very strong feelings about the tree, but I’m trying and failing to see how this could possibly be an “ecological disaster”.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 5:08 PM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is why they try to keep the location of the world's tallest tree quiet.
posted by The Tensor at 5:09 PM on September 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by The Tensor at 5:09 PM on September 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Fiasco da Gama: Coming in to say I work with chainsaws, and that's a very clean fell for anyone, let alone a child. There has to be more to come on this.
Scotland Yard’s elite Timber Crimes Unit will have their hands full for sure.
posted by dr_dank at 5:19 PM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Scotland Yard’s elite Timber Crimes Unit will have their hands full for sure.
posted by dr_dank at 5:19 PM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Tree law!
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:19 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:19 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah as someone who's worked in tree service the notch is really clean, and the back cut is extremely smooth and very perpendicular to the notch. Doing that is not easy or something that comes without a lot of practice.
posted by Ferreous at 5:22 PM on September 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 5:22 PM on September 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Mod note: Not deleting the derail above but will step in to just say, please don't comment in threads if your intentions are not to contribute to the conversation in a productive manner. Check out our guidelines for reminders on how to best participate in a thread.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 5:28 PM on September 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 5:28 PM on September 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
The north east has some extremely deprived areas. This is the part of England that really suffered under Thatcher and successive governments.
So you're saying the music coming out of this area is amazing.
posted by alex_skazat at 5:39 PM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
So you're saying the music coming out of this area is amazing.
posted by alex_skazat at 5:39 PM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Did the Salvation Army Band play white they chopped the sycamore down? Ah-hey-ma-ma-ma (Life in a northern town) Ah-hey-ma-ma-ma Dee-doo-din-nie-ya-ya Ah-hey-ma-ma-ma (All the work shut down) Hey-y-yah Life in a northern town
posted by interogative mood at 5:41 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:41 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think what not just everyday big moggies is getting at is that this is a sad story of pointless vandalism, but the framing is just outrage-bait.
It disgusts me how stupid people can be, whether it's this, or carving your initials in 2000-year-old ruins, or taking selfies at a memorial, but we should also have time in our lives to not be outraged.
I'd be happy if this never happened, but I'd also be unharmed if I never heard about it.
posted by Ickster at 5:47 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
It disgusts me how stupid people can be, whether it's this, or carving your initials in 2000-year-old ruins, or taking selfies at a memorial, but we should also have time in our lives to not be outraged.
I'd be happy if this never happened, but I'd also be unharmed if I never heard about it.
posted by Ickster at 5:47 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm kind of reminded of the John Mulaney bit about the acquaintance of his whose habit was to steal antique photos of parents and grandparents and such from other people's houses during parties, the older the better. Why? Because "they're the one thing you can't replace."
Unless you have a couple of centuries to spare, this tree is another thing that cannot simply be replaced. Which is, I must assume, the motive of the action.
posted by delfin at 5:51 PM on September 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Unless you have a couple of centuries to spare, this tree is another thing that cannot simply be replaced. Which is, I must assume, the motive of the action.
posted by delfin at 5:51 PM on September 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yeah, the 16-year-old might have been involved, but there's no way that was cut down without an experienced logger.
While I agree that this seems likely to end up involving others, at least here in the US there are a surprising number of 16 year olds who have been running chainsaws for a long time. At least a few of them are burly enough to run a chainsaw that large, but yes, that photo looks like it was done by someone with a lot of experience and I am guessing the 16 year old was at the very least not working alone.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:52 PM on September 28, 2023
While I agree that this seems likely to end up involving others, at least here in the US there are a surprising number of 16 year olds who have been running chainsaws for a long time. At least a few of them are burly enough to run a chainsaw that large, but yes, that photo looks like it was done by someone with a lot of experience and I am guessing the 16 year old was at the very least not working alone.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:52 PM on September 28, 2023
I'm delighted to read that there's so much passion about saving the life of a single tree. Every tree has a life worth living.
I have news for you. Adults are doing this every day, legally. "3.5 billion to 7 billion trees are cut down per year."
Would love to see this turn into a discussion of what we can do to turn things around and save the trees.
posted by aniola at 5:52 PM on September 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
I have news for you. Adults are doing this every day, legally. "3.5 billion to 7 billion trees are cut down per year."
Would love to see this turn into a discussion of what we can do to turn things around and save the trees.
posted by aniola at 5:52 PM on September 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Let people be sad about the tree.
In the U.S., the purported oldest living tree — the 4,855 year old "Methuselah" Bristlecone Pine — is not specifically marked, to keep it safe from this sort of thing.
(Though in this day and age you can find its coordinates.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
In the U.S., the purported oldest living tree — the 4,855 year old "Methuselah" Bristlecone Pine — is not specifically marked, to keep it safe from this sort of thing.
(Though in this day and age you can find its coordinates.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
anyone know the law in that area as to the punishment he could receive ?
I don't know the local law but if he and his cohorts did indeed fell the tree, I suspect no law is needed. It's hard to see their identities being kept secret for long. Not from their neighbors, not from the press. The punishment will be thei rest of their lives. They will like corpses hanging from gibbets or trees. Wordlessly saying this is what happens when you do something like this. This was an act they will never live down.
posted by y2karl at 6:02 PM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know the local law but if he and his cohorts did indeed fell the tree, I suspect no law is needed. It's hard to see their identities being kept secret for long. Not from their neighbors, not from the press. The punishment will be thei rest of their lives. They will like corpses hanging from gibbets or trees. Wordlessly saying this is what happens when you do something like this. This was an act they will never live down.
posted by y2karl at 6:02 PM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
If this is of interest I suggest you read this book, The Golden Spruce, about a very special tree in Haida Gwaii (formerly Queen Charlotte Islands) and a very odd person, who seemed to have thought he was making an argument against logging by cutting it down.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Golden_Spruce.html?id=wNyhLe1igkkC#v=onepage&q&f=false
posted by jasper411 at 6:11 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Golden_Spruce.html?id=wNyhLe1igkkC#v=onepage&q&f=false
posted by jasper411 at 6:11 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Does Brexit mean they don't have the right to be forgotten in the UK?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:12 PM on September 28, 2023
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:12 PM on September 28, 2023
aniola the figure I got after googling was 15 billion trees felled every year. But as bad as that may be I'd rather cut those trees down and make things out of their wood and paper instead of using concrete, steel, plastic, or something else that is even worse for the planet. We can plant new trees to replace the ones we cut.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:21 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:21 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
> So this whole fuss is about a tree that people feel attached to because of a Kevin Costner movie?
i mean it was on hadrian's wall, like, the emperor hadrian's wall, his wall, just right there on it, and as has been well established of late folks think about the roman empire all the time. so everybody's gonna love a pretty old tree that also makes them think of 𝕥𝕙𝕖 𝕘𝕝𝕠𝕣𝕪 𝕠𝕗 𝕣𝕠𝕞𝕖 𝕠𝕣 𝕨𝕙𝕒𝕥𝕖𝕧𝕖𝕣 and the tree-choppers suck and should feel real bad.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:22 PM on September 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
i mean it was on hadrian's wall, like, the emperor hadrian's wall, his wall, just right there on it, and as has been well established of late folks think about the roman empire all the time. so everybody's gonna love a pretty old tree that also makes them think of 𝕥𝕙𝕖 𝕘𝕝𝕠𝕣𝕪 𝕠𝕗 𝕣𝕠𝕞𝕖 𝕠𝕣 𝕨𝕙𝕒𝕥𝕖𝕧𝕖𝕣 and the tree-choppers suck and should feel real bad.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:22 PM on September 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
This reminds me of those church burnings in Norway a few years ago. Just pointless, heartbreaking.
(I am also aware that I've spent the last few mornings sweeping up leaves from the gigantic camphor laurel on my property in preparation for bushfire season, and fantasizing about having it chopped down.
There's no point to be drawn from comparing the two things - it's just that life is complicated)
posted by misterbee at 6:24 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
(I am also aware that I've spent the last few mornings sweeping up leaves from the gigantic camphor laurel on my property in preparation for bushfire season, and fantasizing about having it chopped down.
There's no point to be drawn from comparing the two things - it's just that life is complicated)
posted by misterbee at 6:24 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Someone destroyed something that other people enjoyed. Something that had stood for centuries. Something that was a symbol of the place. Something that was alive. Something that was beautiful. Worst of all, they did it intentionally and for no apparent reason.
If anyone is struggling to understand why that's making people upset, then I have no idea what to say.
posted by nfalkner at 6:28 PM on September 28, 2023 [81 favorites]
If anyone is struggling to understand why that's making people upset, then I have no idea what to say.
posted by nfalkner at 6:28 PM on September 28, 2023 [81 favorites]
for no apparent reason
I think it’s very likely that the reason was all the things you mention: it was significant, it was beautiful, it was loved. That’s what makes it horrifying.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:32 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think it’s very likely that the reason was all the things you mention: it was significant, it was beautiful, it was loved. That’s what makes it horrifying.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:32 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Thanks, nfalkner, on preview you said what I was struggling to put into words.
A piece of culture that was important to a lot of folks was just destroyed. It doesn't really matter that it was a tree, or that there are n-billion other trees in the world, or that it was in a movie.
Is anything in your own world culturally important to you? Now imagine someone cutting it in half with a chainsaw for the hell of it.
posted by swift at 6:36 PM on September 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
A piece of culture that was important to a lot of folks was just destroyed. It doesn't really matter that it was a tree, or that there are n-billion other trees in the world, or that it was in a movie.
Is anything in your own world culturally important to you? Now imagine someone cutting it in half with a chainsaw for the hell of it.
posted by swift at 6:36 PM on September 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Letter to the Person Who Carved His Initials into the Oldest Living Longleaf Pine in North America
by Matthew Olzmann
Tell me what it’s like to live without
curiosity, without awe. To sail
on clear water, rolling your eyes
at the kelp reefs swaying
beneath you, ignoring the flicker
of mermaid scales in the mist,
looking at the world and feeling
only boredom. To stand
on the precipice of some wild valley,
the eagles circling, a herd of caribou
booming below, and to yawn
with indifference. To discover
something primordial and holy.
To have the smell of the earth
welcome you to everywhere.
To take it all in, and then,
to reach for your knife.
posted by bondcliff at 6:38 PM on September 28, 2023 [133 favorites]
by Matthew Olzmann
Tell me what it’s like to live without
curiosity, without awe. To sail
on clear water, rolling your eyes
at the kelp reefs swaying
beneath you, ignoring the flicker
of mermaid scales in the mist,
looking at the world and feeling
only boredom. To stand
on the precipice of some wild valley,
the eagles circling, a herd of caribou
booming below, and to yawn
with indifference. To discover
something primordial and holy.
To have the smell of the earth
welcome you to everywhere.
To take it all in, and then,
to reach for your knife.
posted by bondcliff at 6:38 PM on September 28, 2023 [133 favorites]
I know this is a song from the other side of the Irish Sea, but I couldn't help thinking of it when I read about this earlier today.
Oh, Bonny Portmore, I am sorry to see
Such a woeful destruction of your ornament tree...
posted by dnash at 6:40 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh, Bonny Portmore, I am sorry to see
Such a woeful destruction of your ornament tree...
posted by dnash at 6:40 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
A search for "Sycamore Gap" on Flickr.
posted by Western Infidels at 7:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Western Infidels at 7:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I grew up revering trees. I got that from my father who—throughout his 30s, 40s and early 50s—planted what is today a 6 acre forest of diverse, rare and incredible trees. Often via cuttings. One of them, a good eighty to a hundred feet tall today, was the first family Christmas I remember. We always had live trees.
At some point in my early adulthood, I became aware of a bewildering number of people who, it seemed, saw a tree as only something to cut down. Neighbors, co-workers, acquaintances — all apparently considered trees as a nuisance.
I have never understood it.
posted by bz at 7:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
At some point in my early adulthood, I became aware of a bewildering number of people who, it seemed, saw a tree as only something to cut down. Neighbors, co-workers, acquaintances — all apparently considered trees as a nuisance.
I have never understood it.
posted by bz at 7:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
I think a similar cultural moment is when the Joshua Tree from the U2 album was cut down several years ago.
For clarity's sake: the Joshua Tree died of natural causes, and some years ago somebody cut up the fallen tree- presumably to take a souvenir. Because people see the natural world as stuff for them to have and/or take.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:15 PM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
This reminds me of the true story of Grant Hadwin cutting down a tree in BC, Canada as an act of protest against the logging industry.
It's interesting how we decide which trees are worthy of grief.
posted by honor the agreement at 7:34 PM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's interesting how we decide which trees are worthy of grief.
posted by honor the agreement at 7:34 PM on September 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
We can plant new trees to replace the ones we cut.
I recognize your point. Here are some miscellaneous thoughts I have on that:
1. Tell that to the trees we kill. What don't we know about how trees experience life? I don't know.
2. Trees get destroyed for reasons other than paper/wood products.
3. Such as mining.
4. Such as highways.
5. Such as slash and burn to feed the appetite for dairy and meat of the average person reading this thread.
6. Killing trees often destroys more than just trees. It destroys entire ways of life, it destroys indigenous ways of life. Literal genocide is not out of the question.
7. "Indigenous people make up 5% of the world’s population but are responsible for 80% of its biodiversity — was repeated again and again by global Indigenous leaders."
posted by aniola at 7:47 PM on September 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
I recognize your point. Here are some miscellaneous thoughts I have on that:
1. Tell that to the trees we kill. What don't we know about how trees experience life? I don't know.
2. Trees get destroyed for reasons other than paper/wood products.
3. Such as mining.
4. Such as highways.
5. Such as slash and burn to feed the appetite for dairy and meat of the average person reading this thread.
6. Killing trees often destroys more than just trees. It destroys entire ways of life, it destroys indigenous ways of life. Literal genocide is not out of the question.
7. "Indigenous people make up 5% of the world’s population but are responsible for 80% of its biodiversity — was repeated again and again by global Indigenous leaders."
posted by aniola at 7:47 PM on September 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
It really sucks that people cut down an old, beautiful, vital, important tree. I’m completely sincere about that. But, no compassion, empathy, or curiosity about what kind of conditions would make human beings do such a thing, in the England that thatcher built? Just, they’re bad and we hope they get punished and they suffer with the guilt and shame of it? Bc I can tell you they’re already suffering, but probably not for that. It’s like when you have a really rough kid in your classroom and somehow they manage to break everything in the room that everyone really likes, and then one day you met their parents (or whoever) and you find out why.
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Some men 16-year-old boys just want to watch the world burn.
posted by zardoz at 8:17 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by zardoz at 8:17 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
A living, breathing, hundreds of years old tree-- now imagine it was a human elder. The tree, too, was a relative. .
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 8:51 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 8:51 PM on September 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
.
posted by Zumbador at 8:52 PM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 8:52 PM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
aniola, your comments are coming across similarly to telling someone who is sad about a specific person’s death that they should be equally sad about all of the human deaths happening every day. Even if the person grieving only had a parasocial connection to the deceased and the loss they are mourning has a ‘loss of culturally relevant figure’ component not just personal loss component, that is seriously not cool.
posted by eviemath at 9:06 PM on September 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 9:06 PM on September 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
But, no compassion, empathy, or curiosity about what kind of conditions would make human beings do such a thing, in the England that thatcher built?
I mean, it's also the England that Thatcher built, but my money's on much more the people that did this being large landowners who want the tourist plebs to keep away than it being anyone who's (materially, not spiritually) deprived.
posted by ambrosen at 9:11 PM on September 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
I mean, it's also the England that Thatcher built, but my money's on much more the people that did this being large landowners who want the tourist plebs to keep away than it being anyone who's (materially, not spiritually) deprived.
posted by ambrosen at 9:11 PM on September 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm reminded of a conversation that I was involved in with my ex's mother. My ex was from Oregon and this was about old-growth logging; she was in favor of it. (She was an accountant and lived down to the stereotypes, except she was also a bitter, angry woman to boot.) the gist of her argument was that the trees were going to die anyway so we might as well cut them down. I managed to not say that she was also going to die so we might as well kill her today too. I don't know what the reward was for biting my tongue; it certainly wasn't her being any nicer to me.
I'm aware that I live in late-stage capitalism and there's no ethical consumption herein and that even as I move to digital as much as I can, I am also a massive tree-killer. I am also very sad about this tree. I contain multitudes and I'm OK with that because it's better than not caring at all.
.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm aware that I live in late-stage capitalism and there's no ethical consumption herein and that even as I move to digital as much as I can, I am also a massive tree-killer. I am also very sad about this tree. I contain multitudes and I'm OK with that because it's better than not caring at all.
.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:00 PM on September 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Agreed broadly, aniola. An ecological disaster would be the vast treeless areas around this lone tree, some small parts of which are visible in the photos, or the rampant destruction of forests elsewhere.
Anastassia Makarieva argues new trees cannot quickly replace older forests' ecological functions, like the biotic pump effect which prevents desertification.
We do need some wood, concrete, steel, and plastic too of course, but all these must be tightly limited, so think Tokugawa shogunate.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:01 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anastassia Makarieva argues new trees cannot quickly replace older forests' ecological functions, like the biotic pump effect which prevents desertification.
We do need some wood, concrete, steel, and plastic too of course, but all these must be tightly limited, so think Tokugawa shogunate.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:01 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Based on the picture if that was a 16 year old they did a really clean felling with a chainsaw that had a very long bar.
That was my first thought on seeing the pictures Ferreous. I'm from the PNW and have been around logging more than once and have a number of relatives that work in the logging industry.
That cut was real even all the way across. Either that kid really knew what he was doing, or he had help. Big chainsaw too.
posted by Relay at 10:35 PM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
That was my first thought on seeing the pictures Ferreous. I'm from the PNW and have been around logging more than once and have a number of relatives that work in the logging industry.
That cut was real even all the way across. Either that kid really knew what he was doing, or he had help. Big chainsaw too.
posted by Relay at 10:35 PM on September 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Quick Zuck, now is your chance to prove the utility of the Metaverse. Restore the tree with a mixed reality holographic clone gently swaying in the procedurally generated wind.
posted by neonamber at 11:38 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by neonamber at 11:38 PM on September 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
For a wider ecological view, tree people are pretty sure that Acer pseudoplatanus aka sycamore is an invasive species to GB and Ireland: being native much further to the East. But the species has been part of the English landscape for ~500 years. It seeds prolifically and the saplings grow rapidly. In that sense it has a lot in common with Ash Fraxinus excelsior which is a) native b) a very common hedgerow [and elsewhere] tree c) fucked because of ash die-back caused by Hymenoscyphus fraxineus previously known as Chalara fraxinea, an ascomycete fungus first described in 2006 and now barrelling across Europe. The fungus blocks the circulatory system, the leaves die first but the whole tree follows suit in a few years. Sycamore is going to fill a chunk of the ecological niche left by ash leaving the landscape.
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:58 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:58 PM on September 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
my money's on much more the people that did this being large landowners
Yeah, I sincerely doubt that any 16-year-old with access to a serious big tree-cutting chainsaw like that and probably a quad bike to tote it up there was particularly deprived. Depraved, maybe, but not deprived.
posted by tavella at 12:03 AM on September 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I sincerely doubt that any 16-year-old with access to a serious big tree-cutting chainsaw like that and probably a quad bike to tote it up there was particularly deprived. Depraved, maybe, but not deprived.
posted by tavella at 12:03 AM on September 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
But, no compassion, empathy, or curiosity about what kind of conditions would make human beings do such a thing, in the England that thatcher built?
I mean, it's also the England that Thatcher built, but my money's on much more the people that did this being large landowners who want the tourist plebs to keep away than it being anyone who's (materially, not spiritually) deprived.
I grew up in northern England, not here but not that far away in a similar area. The kids who jump on quad bikes, ride out into the hills and set fire to the moors, or shoot off shotguns at wildlife and roadsigns? Farmer's kids. Estate scallies don't have long bar chainsaws. Bet you this is a young and relatively well off idiot who took daddy's power tools out for a laugh.
Also yeah this is a famous landmark that has been permanently trashed, hence the outrage. I didn't know it was in a film but I was aware of it as a thing people liked generally. I mean, I did some stupid shit as a kid, but bloody hell...
posted by tomsk at 12:05 AM on September 29, 2023 [22 favorites]
I mean, it's also the England that Thatcher built, but my money's on much more the people that did this being large landowners who want the tourist plebs to keep away than it being anyone who's (materially, not spiritually) deprived.
I grew up in northern England, not here but not that far away in a similar area. The kids who jump on quad bikes, ride out into the hills and set fire to the moors, or shoot off shotguns at wildlife and roadsigns? Farmer's kids. Estate scallies don't have long bar chainsaws. Bet you this is a young and relatively well off idiot who took daddy's power tools out for a laugh.
Also yeah this is a famous landmark that has been permanently trashed, hence the outrage. I didn't know it was in a film but I was aware of it as a thing people liked generally. I mean, I did some stupid shit as a kid, but bloody hell...
posted by tomsk at 12:05 AM on September 29, 2023 [22 favorites]
The New Sentencing Guidelines For Offenders Who Cause Damage To Heritage and Cultural Assets, 2019, wouldn’t apply to the suspect because he is under the age of 18. The writers of the law had that good sense. I mean, he didn’t fell the London bridge or burn down a church with people in it!!
Here’s to hoping his “sentence” is to be paired up with a horticulturalist, a local cultural preservationist—and maybe also a therapist—with the directive to plant and tend to a couple thousand offspring from the very tree he felled. And be forced to watch Apocalypto a couple hundred times as a reminder of the interconnectedness between violence and “civilization.”
…unless, of course, that was the point in cutting down the tree in the way he (allegedly) did…
posted by rub scupper cult at 12:10 AM on September 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Here’s to hoping his “sentence” is to be paired up with a horticulturalist, a local cultural preservationist—and maybe also a therapist—with the directive to plant and tend to a couple thousand offspring from the very tree he felled. And be forced to watch Apocalypto a couple hundred times as a reminder of the interconnectedness between violence and “civilization.”
…unless, of course, that was the point in cutting down the tree in the way he (allegedly) did…
posted by rub scupper cult at 12:10 AM on September 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Photos of the tree from before it was cut down.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 12:56 AM on September 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 12:56 AM on September 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Some wag already renamed the location on Google Maps from Sycamore Gap to Sycamore Stump.
posted by DreamerFi at 1:12 AM on September 29, 2023
posted by DreamerFi at 1:12 AM on September 29, 2023
Is anything in your own world culturally important to you? Now imagine someone cutting it in half with a chainsaw for the hell of it.
This happening repeatedly (sometimes in a more figurative sense) has been the reality of living in England for the last decade or two for a lot of us.
posted by Dysk at 1:48 AM on September 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
This happening repeatedly (sometimes in a more figurative sense) has been the reality of living in England for the last decade or two for a lot of us.
posted by Dysk at 1:48 AM on September 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
Photos of the tree from before it was cut down.
It looks like the tree has a little child ready to take over, so that's reassuring, though knowing trees, the little one probably misses its parent.
Anyway, I am split on this. Obviously, it is a sad and stupid thing. It was a beautiful tree in a beautiful place. Why would anyone do something like this? I suppose there will be some sort of an answer soon. But... When I first saw the headlines yesterday, I thought the tree was special because it dated back to Roman times, or maybe just the time of the real Robin Hood. I was confused by the name Sycamore Gap, because I didn't think sycamore trees existed that far back. (They didn't). But it was famous because it was in a movie. (I read it in The Guardian, not on CNN). I don't mind trees being famous for silly reasons, all trees are important. But I do think "cultural heritage" is a bit over the top as a description of this particular tree, so my outrage is at a normal level for vandalism, not like when the Taliban blew up the Buddhist sculptures.
I also noticed what many are saying above: that is a mighty fine cut for a 16-yo. It will be interesting to learn more about that aspect.
Still, I don't think it makes sense to imagine a landowner trying to reduce tourism, people are not going to stop walking along Hadrians Wall because of this. They'll just have one less attraction among many. Besides, it's in a National Park, everyone can go there all the time. If anything, the local landowners probably rely on the tourists for income, there can't be much to earn from farming in that landscape.
I'm going with the theory that the boy was angry or sad or mentally ill, and deserves care as much as he deserves punishment.
posted by mumimor at 1:56 AM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
It looks like the tree has a little child ready to take over, so that's reassuring, though knowing trees, the little one probably misses its parent.
Anyway, I am split on this. Obviously, it is a sad and stupid thing. It was a beautiful tree in a beautiful place. Why would anyone do something like this? I suppose there will be some sort of an answer soon. But... When I first saw the headlines yesterday, I thought the tree was special because it dated back to Roman times, or maybe just the time of the real Robin Hood. I was confused by the name Sycamore Gap, because I didn't think sycamore trees existed that far back. (They didn't). But it was famous because it was in a movie. (I read it in The Guardian, not on CNN). I don't mind trees being famous for silly reasons, all trees are important. But I do think "cultural heritage" is a bit over the top as a description of this particular tree, so my outrage is at a normal level for vandalism, not like when the Taliban blew up the Buddhist sculptures.
I also noticed what many are saying above: that is a mighty fine cut for a 16-yo. It will be interesting to learn more about that aspect.
Still, I don't think it makes sense to imagine a landowner trying to reduce tourism, people are not going to stop walking along Hadrians Wall because of this. They'll just have one less attraction among many. Besides, it's in a National Park, everyone can go there all the time. If anything, the local landowners probably rely on the tourists for income, there can't be much to earn from farming in that landscape.
I'm going with the theory that the boy was angry or sad or mentally ill, and deserves care as much as he deserves punishment.
posted by mumimor at 1:56 AM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Besides, it's in a National Park, everyone can go there all the time. If anything, the local landowners probably rely on the tourists for income, there can't be much to earn from farming in that landscape.
"Landowners" in this context are sometimes people who don't need to rely on such proletarian things as 'income'. The person making that comment could well be imagining a big country estate, not a farm or business. It is Britain, after all.
posted by Dysk at 2:03 AM on September 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Landowners" in this context are sometimes people who don't need to rely on such proletarian things as 'income'. The person making that comment could well be imagining a big country estate, not a farm or business. It is Britain, after all.
posted by Dysk at 2:03 AM on September 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
The tree was in a movie because it was already widely known as a local landmark, obviously. So yes, it is important.
I’ve seen someone say that they saw the owner of the land it’s on complaining about all the tourists in a documentary, so I will try to dig that out.
Obviously, if it’s only a 16 year old that gets charged then they won’t be named, so it’s unlikely we’ll find out much more about them. Particularly if they have good lawyers.
posted by ambrosen at 3:57 AM on September 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’ve seen someone say that they saw the owner of the land it’s on complaining about all the tourists in a documentary, so I will try to dig that out.
Obviously, if it’s only a 16 year old that gets charged then they won’t be named, so it’s unlikely we’ll find out much more about them. Particularly if they have good lawyers.
posted by ambrosen at 3:57 AM on September 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
> This happening repeatedly (sometimes in a more figurative sense) has been the reality of living in England for the last decade or two for a lot of us.
This. This this this.
There's a constant feeling in the UK that we just can't have nice things any more, and the nice things we do have are being taken away from us for no reason other than shitty, petty-minded, vindictive cruelty. This incident is basically a really fucking clumsy literal version of that. No, you can't have the nice tree any more. Why? Because fuck you, that's why.
posted by parm at 3:58 AM on September 29, 2023 [30 favorites]
This. This this this.
There's a constant feeling in the UK that we just can't have nice things any more, and the nice things we do have are being taken away from us for no reason other than shitty, petty-minded, vindictive cruelty. This incident is basically a really fucking clumsy literal version of that. No, you can't have the nice tree any more. Why? Because fuck you, that's why.
posted by parm at 3:58 AM on September 29, 2023 [30 favorites]
To note, it's not a famous tree because it was in a film, it was in a film precisely because it was an iconic and famous tree in a historically important location (and the filmmakers cared little about historical accuracy).
posted by plonkee at 3:58 AM on September 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 3:58 AM on September 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
Sentence: Plant a million trees, and raise at least one to the same size and age.
posted by loquacious at 4:38 AM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 4:38 AM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
For a wider ecological view, tree people are pretty sure that Acer pseudoplatanus aka sycamore is an invasive species to GB and Ireland: being native much further to the East. But the species has been part of the English landscape for ~500 years.
Defining invasive species in England is pretty difficult in a way that people from the Americas or Australia are rarely familiar with because they have a clear date at which to define a status quo ante.
England has been so thoroughly integrated into the old-world shared biosphere that it can be a little complicated to decide whether something is invasive. I.e. I've seen people make the claim that rabbits are an invasive in England, but they have been seen here since 1066 (the Normans brought them) and some claim that actually they date back to the Romans.... and they are attested in the fossil record before the most recent ice age... but they weren't around between the end of that ice age and the Romans / Normans. So are they or aren't they invasive?
Certain plant and animal species are found in the pollen record during and before previous ice ages, disappear for a few tens of thousands of years, and then get re-introduced before we have recorded human history.
So it's a little more complex than it is in the Americas and Australia where clearly invasive Eurasian species have been introduced in recent history often by people who we can literally trace in the record.
This includes thing like the honeybee which is commonly thought of as "native to the old world" but as late as the bronze age was not present in Siberia East of the Urals and that fact is used to try and locate the geographic origin of Proto-Indo-European. So any honey bees which are now present there now are they invasive? It seems hard to say after a few thousand years.
posted by atrazine at 5:02 AM on September 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Defining invasive species in England is pretty difficult in a way that people from the Americas or Australia are rarely familiar with because they have a clear date at which to define a status quo ante.
England has been so thoroughly integrated into the old-world shared biosphere that it can be a little complicated to decide whether something is invasive. I.e. I've seen people make the claim that rabbits are an invasive in England, but they have been seen here since 1066 (the Normans brought them) and some claim that actually they date back to the Romans.... and they are attested in the fossil record before the most recent ice age... but they weren't around between the end of that ice age and the Romans / Normans. So are they or aren't they invasive?
Certain plant and animal species are found in the pollen record during and before previous ice ages, disappear for a few tens of thousands of years, and then get re-introduced before we have recorded human history.
So it's a little more complex than it is in the Americas and Australia where clearly invasive Eurasian species have been introduced in recent history often by people who we can literally trace in the record.
This includes thing like the honeybee which is commonly thought of as "native to the old world" but as late as the bronze age was not present in Siberia East of the Urals and that fact is used to try and locate the geographic origin of Proto-Indo-European. So any honey bees which are now present there now are they invasive? It seems hard to say after a few thousand years.
posted by atrazine at 5:02 AM on September 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. Let's avoid jokes about someone hanging over this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:28 AM on September 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:28 AM on September 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
The UK is the third most tree-denuded country in Europe after Ireland and Holland.
Australia in its entirety has nearly 30% more tree cover, the US around two and a half time as much.
Less than 20% of that forest cover is classed as natural "ancient woodland" that has been in situ since 1600 or earlier. There are only 46 ancient woodland sites more than 3 square kilometres in extent in the whole country.
Feeling joy, awe and wonder at big, old trees and showing active disregard for them are of course worldwide phenomena ; nonetheless I do think that this sad episode highlights plenty of particularities of the British psyche and the nation's relationship with nature that are worth discussing.
posted by protorp at 5:52 AM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Australia in its entirety has nearly 30% more tree cover, the US around two and a half time as much.
Less than 20% of that forest cover is classed as natural "ancient woodland" that has been in situ since 1600 or earlier. There are only 46 ancient woodland sites more than 3 square kilometres in extent in the whole country.
Feeling joy, awe and wonder at big, old trees and showing active disregard for them are of course worldwide phenomena ; nonetheless I do think that this sad episode highlights plenty of particularities of the British psyche and the nation's relationship with nature that are worth discussing.
posted by protorp at 5:52 AM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's never any shortage of jerks...
On the other hand, the tree went for literally centuries before such a jerk finally showed up.
I think jerks want everyone (perhaps themselves especially) to think that there are more of them than there really are. It creates an illusion of normality around them and their actions.
posted by swr at 6:11 AM on September 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
On the other hand, the tree went for literally centuries before such a jerk finally showed up.
I think jerks want everyone (perhaps themselves especially) to think that there are more of them than there really are. It creates an illusion of normality around them and their actions.
posted by swr at 6:11 AM on September 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
William Blake wrote in a letter, “The tree which moves some to tears of joy is in the eyes of others only a green thing that stands in the way. Some see nature all ridicule and deformity... and some scarce see nature at all. But to the eyes of the man of imagination, nature is imagination itself.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:11 AM on September 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:11 AM on September 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
The UK is the third most tree-denuded country in Europe after Ireland and Holland.
Holland is not the name of a country. My country is called the Netherlands. Thanks for taking note.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:12 AM on September 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Holland is not the name of a country. My country is called the Netherlands. Thanks for taking note.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:12 AM on September 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Noted Too-Ticky, won't make the mistake again. Mods please edit or leave as a learning point as you see fit.
posted by protorp at 6:18 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by protorp at 6:18 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that anyone here is a jerk.)
posted by swr at 6:21 AM on September 29, 2023
posted by swr at 6:21 AM on September 29, 2023
Bet you this is a young and relatively well off idiot who took daddy's power tools out for a laugh.
Does a loving upbringing produce such children? Occasionally. But mostly not.
I'm upset about the tree, but, while 16-year-olds are going to 16-year-old, to accomplish this requires a 16-year-old really on the wrong path, and kids rarely reach that point of their own volition.
posted by praemunire at 7:18 AM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Does a loving upbringing produce such children? Occasionally. But mostly not.
I'm upset about the tree, but, while 16-year-olds are going to 16-year-old, to accomplish this requires a 16-year-old really on the wrong path, and kids rarely reach that point of their own volition.
posted by praemunire at 7:18 AM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm going with the theory that the boy was angry or sad or mentally ill
mumimor, I don't know you from a handful of comments but you seem like an extraordinarily compassionate person with a capacity for empathy that I lack
I am glad you're here
there are boys (late teens to ~20) who congregate at a park I help maintain and I suppose they may be angry or sad, or if it's mental illness I warrant it's the kind we all get from being exposed to toxic shit.. but they destroy things. They do it when no-one is there, and it just gets worse every year. I fear the problem is a type of maleness and I don't see how we solve this in (lifetimes)
posted by elkevelvet at 7:37 AM on September 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
mumimor, I don't know you from a handful of comments but you seem like an extraordinarily compassionate person with a capacity for empathy that I lack
I am glad you're here
there are boys (late teens to ~20) who congregate at a park I help maintain and I suppose they may be angry or sad, or if it's mental illness I warrant it's the kind we all get from being exposed to toxic shit.. but they destroy things. They do it when no-one is there, and it just gets worse every year. I fear the problem is a type of maleness and I don't see how we solve this in (lifetimes)
posted by elkevelvet at 7:37 AM on September 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Most of what tree cover The Netherlands has, is in any case certainly not in either N or Z Holland!
There is a complex discussion over whether "tree denuded" is entirely correct in this context since it implies that:
1) The "state of nature" is trees from the Urals to the Irish Atlantic coast. Frans Vera (also Dutch!) and others have challenged this with their mega-herbivore theories aka the "wood pasture hypothesis" which posits a mixed landscape of meadows (with large trees like oaks, which like open land), hazels, and dense closed forest only found locally rather than the old idea of a squirrel being able to leap from branch to branch across the whole of Europe. Sycamore has a related niche to oaks, it likes disturbed, light and open land and is resistant to wind.
Nonetheless, none of these three countries are currently dominated by those biomes either but are instead heavily farmed and urbanised. So "tree denuded" can stand in for "not much room for nature" but I would challenge tree planting as being automatically the right thing to do for natural landscapes which is a developing / historic belief. Often but not always, we should improve biodiversity by planting the right trees in the right places.
2) To a large extent, these are the places which are most densely peopled and agricultural where not. (the other places on that map that are notable for their lack of tree cover are Northern France, North Italy, and the West of Germany aka the collective blue banana of European population density. It is also true that these are landscapes which have been farmed and peopled for a very long time. To that end, I think the right way to think about improving nature in these places is restoring mixed farming landscapes, expanding ancient woodlands at their edges where possible, and improving biodiversity of the resulting landscape through "micro" interventions like preserving hedgerows, verge strips, changing gardening practices, etc. combined with "macro" interventions like controls on chemical agents. Not overly-valourising solutions which remove human settlement or farming or their traces from these places. I am perhaps more in line with King Charles than Isabella Knepp in my thinking here, if that makes sense, and definitely not a deep ecology point of view.
3) Fuck this kid though, I loved that tree very much as I love all charismatic trees.
posted by atrazine at 7:38 AM on September 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is a complex discussion over whether "tree denuded" is entirely correct in this context since it implies that:
1) The "state of nature" is trees from the Urals to the Irish Atlantic coast. Frans Vera (also Dutch!) and others have challenged this with their mega-herbivore theories aka the "wood pasture hypothesis" which posits a mixed landscape of meadows (with large trees like oaks, which like open land), hazels, and dense closed forest only found locally rather than the old idea of a squirrel being able to leap from branch to branch across the whole of Europe. Sycamore has a related niche to oaks, it likes disturbed, light and open land and is resistant to wind.
Nonetheless, none of these three countries are currently dominated by those biomes either but are instead heavily farmed and urbanised. So "tree denuded" can stand in for "not much room for nature" but I would challenge tree planting as being automatically the right thing to do for natural landscapes which is a developing / historic belief. Often but not always, we should improve biodiversity by planting the right trees in the right places.
2) To a large extent, these are the places which are most densely peopled and agricultural where not. (the other places on that map that are notable for their lack of tree cover are Northern France, North Italy, and the West of Germany aka the collective blue banana of European population density. It is also true that these are landscapes which have been farmed and peopled for a very long time. To that end, I think the right way to think about improving nature in these places is restoring mixed farming landscapes, expanding ancient woodlands at their edges where possible, and improving biodiversity of the resulting landscape through "micro" interventions like preserving hedgerows, verge strips, changing gardening practices, etc. combined with "macro" interventions like controls on chemical agents. Not overly-valourising solutions which remove human settlement or farming or their traces from these places. I am perhaps more in line with King Charles than Isabella Knepp in my thinking here, if that makes sense, and definitely not a deep ecology point of view.
3) Fuck this kid though, I loved that tree very much as I love all charismatic trees.
posted by atrazine at 7:38 AM on September 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
In Northern Ontario there are chainsaws . Lots and lots of them. In Toronto not so much
Here's a photo showing the size of the trunk.
Here's another showing it's complex. Almost a twin tree
Someone knew what they were doing.
posted by yyz at 7:46 AM on September 29, 2023
Here's a photo showing the size of the trunk.
Here's another showing it's complex. Almost a twin tree
Someone knew what they were doing.
posted by yyz at 7:46 AM on September 29, 2023
my uninformed guess based on the size of the tree and the difficulty of using the tools required to untree it is that if the kid was involved at all his role was to take the fall for the adults who’d be facing very serious consequences if their involvement were known
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:51 AM on September 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:51 AM on September 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
ricochet biscuit,
Thank you for that Blake quote. It sums it all up.
posted by njohnson23 at 7:59 AM on September 29, 2023
Thank you for that Blake quote. It sums it all up.
posted by njohnson23 at 7:59 AM on September 29, 2023
I wish every human could spend a year living in a quiet forest. I grew up in one. Those who've never counted trees among those they love, or mourned the loss of a tree, are missing something. Trees are amazing. They communicate with each other and feed and heal one another; a forest is a whole community, and it feels like one when you're in it—you don't have to imagine it.
The world isn't just for people. Animals and trees don't exist for us. We are a part of their world. They were here before us and will outlive us all. If you walk into the woods and see chaos, you're failing to see the bigger picture. If you stand among trees and don't feel small, you're missing what I consider to be a critical, formative realization about how you fit into the larger world. If you can't work up an ounce of respect for a tree, I feel for you.
What this person did is very sad to me. I get why people are mourning. It's not even just about the tree.
posted by heyho at 8:08 AM on September 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
The world isn't just for people. Animals and trees don't exist for us. We are a part of their world. They were here before us and will outlive us all. If you walk into the woods and see chaos, you're failing to see the bigger picture. If you stand among trees and don't feel small, you're missing what I consider to be a critical, formative realization about how you fit into the larger world. If you can't work up an ounce of respect for a tree, I feel for you.
What this person did is very sad to me. I get why people are mourning. It's not even just about the tree.
posted by heyho at 8:08 AM on September 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
I fear the problem is a type of maleness
Which is a pile of toxic garbage dumped on them by their parents and society, now helpfully amplified by the Internet.
To be honest, I have a real revulsion to this particular kind of little shit, but I do try to remind myself once the emotional reaction has passed that this is probably the point in their lives where they have maximum ability to cause harm coupled with minimum ability to understand or ameliorate in an adult way the complex stew of toxicity they've been steeped in. If this kid wasn't just a ride-along for older adults (men, let's be real), the odds are good that he couldn't even tell you why he did it. And that's sad, too.
posted by praemunire at 8:08 AM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Which is a pile of toxic garbage dumped on them by their parents and society, now helpfully amplified by the Internet.
To be honest, I have a real revulsion to this particular kind of little shit, but I do try to remind myself once the emotional reaction has passed that this is probably the point in their lives where they have maximum ability to cause harm coupled with minimum ability to understand or ameliorate in an adult way the complex stew of toxicity they've been steeped in. If this kid wasn't just a ride-along for older adults (men, let's be real), the odds are good that he couldn't even tell you why he did it. And that's sad, too.
posted by praemunire at 8:08 AM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Is there anyone who will benefit from this tree’s removal? What will happen to the land now? If this was anywhere in the US I’d assume some developers were getting rebuffed due to this tree, so they just found someone to take the hit.
I’ve removed my fair share of trees but also have an arborist on speed dial to keep other trees healthy.
posted by Farce_First at 8:15 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’ve removed my fair share of trees but also have an arborist on speed dial to keep other trees healthy.
posted by Farce_First at 8:15 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The revered Treaty Oak in Austin, Texas was deliberately poisoned in 1989. The culprit was sentenced to 9 years in prison. The tree survived.
posted by neuron at 8:25 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by neuron at 8:25 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is there anyone who will benefit from this tree’s removal? What will happen to the land now?
No and nothing. It is in a national park next to an ancient monument. There will not be any development here and whatever farming (sheep?) takes place will be entirely independent of whether tree is there or not.
posted by plonkee at 8:32 AM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
No and nothing. It is in a national park next to an ancient monument. There will not be any development here and whatever farming (sheep?) takes place will be entirely independent of whether tree is there or not.
posted by plonkee at 8:32 AM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ecodefense: A Field Guide to Monkeywrenching has a section on tree spiking, including tips like sealing the hole to prevent infection, and ideas like inserted plastics damaging paper mills. It'd be nice if there was something more recent which discusses current defenses against tree spiking, ala metal detectors.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:42 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 8:42 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
i wish the person or people who had done this had either:
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:08 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
- carved their own names into the trunk
- carved the name "herostratus" into the trunk
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:08 AM on September 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Note: I have owned and operated chainsaws.
Yes, it is safer and more efficient to have a long bar saw for falling trees it isn't necessary. A 16 year could do it with a saw that only half the diameter tree, and that tree isn't particularly large.
To chop down a tree it's essentially three steps:
First it barely looks like a 45 degree undercut - for a tree this size you should do a much wider, like 90 degrees. A shallow wedge will result in the tree falling over and slamming onto it's own stump and then it can move unexpectedly - and dangerously.
The undercut is not at all a smooth single cut - you can see the primary angled cut and then a second attempt without any discernible angle. That sort of corrective cut is very amateur.
The cut pattern of a powerful big bar chainsaw is much smoother and uniform - large chain saws feature spikes that you can press into the tree and pivot the cut safely. These cuts looks like someone going at it with an actual sawing motion. Which could be the result of an underpowered saw, like one powered by a human.
Cutting a tree this size would result in an incredible amount of sawdust. I don't see much of that, so I'm leaning towards an old fashioned manual saw, operated by someone who hasn't cut down a tree this size but is familiar with the process.
posted by zenon at 9:14 AM on September 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yes, it is safer and more efficient to have a long bar saw for falling trees it isn't necessary. A 16 year could do it with a saw that only half the diameter tree, and that tree isn't particularly large.
To chop down a tree it's essentially three steps:
- undercut a wedge out of the tree to control the fall direction. The CNN hero image you can see this cut on the sycamore on the right.
- start the back cut slightly higher than the end point of the undercut and then drive in wedge or shims into the back cut. This prevents the tree from pinching your saw and allows you to remove the saw to make cuts from both sides
- complete back cut - the higher cut line will result in a fulcrum that pivots in a somewhat predictable manner
First it barely looks like a 45 degree undercut - for a tree this size you should do a much wider, like 90 degrees. A shallow wedge will result in the tree falling over and slamming onto it's own stump and then it can move unexpectedly - and dangerously.
The undercut is not at all a smooth single cut - you can see the primary angled cut and then a second attempt without any discernible angle. That sort of corrective cut is very amateur.
The cut pattern of a powerful big bar chainsaw is much smoother and uniform - large chain saws feature spikes that you can press into the tree and pivot the cut safely. These cuts looks like someone going at it with an actual sawing motion. Which could be the result of an underpowered saw, like one powered by a human.
Cutting a tree this size would result in an incredible amount of sawdust. I don't see much of that, so I'm leaning towards an old fashioned manual saw, operated by someone who hasn't cut down a tree this size but is familiar with the process.
posted by zenon at 9:14 AM on September 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Nevermind about the sawdust - I found a higher res image and I can see that it has just blown around a bit. So it was likely an underpowered (for this task) chainsaw.
posted by zenon at 9:21 AM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by zenon at 9:21 AM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Since this is a sycamore tree, and it looks very healthy, it is not dead at all. Actually, the double trunks indicate that it might have been cut down before. This is not in any way a defence of the crime, just so that everyone knows that the tree will probably shoot again and live on, unless the park management decides to tear up the roots. It won't look exactly the same, and it will take a while (like 50 years) before it looks good, but it can recover.
I was just Wednesday showing friends images of a gorgeous huge sycamore I found, which had also clearly been cut down perhaps 200 years ago, and now has three trunks. So I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier. But now I did.
posted by mumimor at 10:25 AM on September 29, 2023 [18 favorites]
I was just Wednesday showing friends images of a gorgeous huge sycamore I found, which had also clearly been cut down perhaps 200 years ago, and now has three trunks. So I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier. But now I did.
posted by mumimor at 10:25 AM on September 29, 2023 [18 favorites]
A mature tree at Hadrian’s wall is a sad loss. Teens do dumb stuff; this particular term especially.
posted by theora55 at 11:21 AM on September 29, 2023
posted by theora55 at 11:21 AM on September 29, 2023
60 year old man arrested in connection with falling this tree.
posted by Rumple at 12:41 PM on September 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 12:41 PM on September 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
60 year old man arrested in connection with falling this tree.
"What? No, not sixteen, sixty! 6-0! I said sixty!"
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 12:59 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
"What? No, not sixteen, sixty! 6-0! I said sixty!"
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 12:59 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I accidentally painted over a Banksy, once.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 3:16 PM on September 29, 2023
posted by Baby_Balrog at 3:16 PM on September 29, 2023
If Reddit and Twitter were to be believed, the locals think it was a local farmer who didn't like tourists, so it's possible that the 16 year old discovered that he wasn't necessarily going to get off quite as scot-free as he had been told, and promptly rolled over on the guy.
posted by tavella at 4:16 PM on September 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by tavella at 4:16 PM on September 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, Tavella, then what I said above about the 16 year old applies ten fold to the local farmer.
Also, what bombastic lower case pronouncements said about Herostatus. A story I did not know until today when I was frightened by my phone once again.
On a sidenote, Rod McBan to the 151st in Cordwainer Smith's The Planet Buyer had a copy of the temple of Diana of the Ephesians built by the Daimoni which was visible only in the ultraviolet range -- it housed his computer if I recall correctly. And upon re-reading it after 49 years just now, I see I do. His computer being, I realize now, one of the earliest AIs depicted in science fiction as well.
And, if nothing else, I have been impressed by the deep membership knowledge in regards to the finer points of chainsawing
I accidentally painted over a Banksy, once.
OMFG! Derail or not, Baby_Balrog, you must tell forthwith -- on behalf of us all, I insist!
posted by y2karl at 5:32 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, what bombastic lower case pronouncements said about Herostatus. A story I did not know until today when I was frightened by my phone once again.
On a sidenote, Rod McBan to the 151st in Cordwainer Smith's The Planet Buyer had a copy of the temple of Diana of the Ephesians built by the Daimoni which was visible only in the ultraviolet range -- it housed his computer if I recall correctly. And upon re-reading it after 49 years just now, I see I do. His computer being, I realize now, one of the earliest AIs depicted in science fiction as well.
And, if nothing else, I have been impressed by the deep membership knowledge in regards to the finer points of chainsawing
I accidentally painted over a Banksy, once.
OMFG! Derail or not, Baby_Balrog, you must tell forthwith -- on behalf of us all, I insist!
posted by y2karl at 5:32 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I strongly suspect the 16 year old is a patsy, made to take the fall precisely because they’re under 18.
posted by sbutler at 6:28 PM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by sbutler at 6:28 PM on September 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Christ, what an asshole.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:35 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 6:35 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
We curse the one benighted chap
Who felled the Sycamore at the Gap,
but tolerate those richer guys
Who burn whole forests, seas, and skies
-Simon Heywood
posted by AlSweigart at 8:55 PM on September 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Who felled the Sycamore at the Gap,
but tolerate those richer guys
Who burn whole forests, seas, and skies
-Simon Heywood
posted by AlSweigart at 8:55 PM on September 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
That’s a wonderful parody; for those unaware, here’s the poem that inspired it.
posted by Miko at 9:25 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 9:25 PM on September 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pub offers bar tab reward for information over Robin Hood tree loss
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 11:54 PM on September 29, 2023
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 11:54 PM on September 29, 2023
I accidentally painted over a Banksy, once.
Didn't need a second coat?
posted by pracowity at 12:07 AM on September 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Didn't need a second coat?
posted by pracowity at 12:07 AM on September 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
I accidentally painted over a Banksy, once.
Thank you for your service.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thank you for your service.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:59 PM on September 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Apparently they're looking at an adult lumberjack with a laudatory quote about the felling and a prior grievance as a suspect now.
posted by Selena777 at 7:59 AM on October 1, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 7:59 AM on October 1, 2023
Then like Fred Flintstone, his is a name that will go down in history.
posted by y2karl at 11:35 AM on October 1, 2023
posted by y2karl at 11:35 AM on October 1, 2023
I'm assuming less a full time lumberjack than a farmer who did tree-cutting work on occasion, since he's also supposedly been a full time farmer at Plankey Mill, the basis for his complaint against the Jesuits for evicting him. Which I guess I have some sympathy for, on the other hand I suspect the sort of person who would spitefully cut down an ancient tree to get back at the National Trust for complaining about his unpermitted campground... might not have been the most delightful tenant. If the allegations are true, that is.
posted by tavella at 1:06 PM on October 1, 2023
posted by tavella at 1:06 PM on October 1, 2023
Jesuits! Priory of Sion!
Holy blood & Holy grail!
1188 .
posted by hortense at 2:25 PM on October 2, 2023
Holy blood & Holy grail!
1188 .
posted by hortense at 2:25 PM on October 2, 2023
I mourn the Sycamore Gap tree. But I also grieve for whoever chopped it down
Rob Cowen/The Guardian
posted by mumimor at 6:34 PM on October 3, 2023
Rob Cowen/The Guardian
posted by mumimor at 6:34 PM on October 3, 2023
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posted by Fizz at 4:08 PM on September 28, 2023 [22 favorites]