A Covid FAQ with 300 Sources
October 11, 2023 1:17 PM Subscribe
A simple myth/fact style FAQ about covid, with citations.
Here is the last question and answer:
Here is the last question and answer:
Okay, what’s the solution?
Just to be extra clear, here they are:These are the best and only solutions we have. We have the knowledge and tools we need to keep each other safe from Covid.
- Educate and inform the public about their risks.
- Educate them about masks.
- Return to masking, especially in healthcare settings.
- Advocate for clean air, especially in public buildings.
- Advocate for better vaccines.
We just have to use them.
This post was deleted for the following reason: The complex combination of misinformation and "This is just the facts" makes this not a great post for metafilter. I appreciate people's willingness to engage, but the conversation is mostly "This is not great information" -- jessamyn
Wouldn't be a COVID fearmongering Substack written by a non-medical professional if it didn't have a bubonic plague doctor picture up top!
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 1:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 1:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
It seems to me that a website named OK Doomer might have some bias in their research and presentation.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes it quickly becomes clear looking at this that the author has selected which sources to emphasize and which to not emphasize, although I agree with the conclusions, the specific bullet points present much more certainty than we actually have.
posted by latkes at 1:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by latkes at 1:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
And yet public health officials do not seem nearly as concerned as they did.
Is Covid over? Nope.
Does it represent the existential threat it did 3 years ago? Nope.
posted by Keith Talent at 1:50 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Is Covid over? Nope.
Does it represent the existential threat it did 3 years ago? Nope.
posted by Keith Talent at 1:50 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
It does look like the current wave of infections peaked a couple of weeks ago, so that's... good news... I guess.
posted by gwint at 1:56 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by gwint at 1:56 PM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hasn’t Covid become mild?
The most recent variants are killing people even with mild symptoms. In fact, nearly 40 percent of those who died from Covid in Japan felt mild symptoms before they died, or they didn't feel sick at all.
Kind of an outlandish abuse of different contextual implications of “mild symptoms,” here. The Japanese claim implies that symptoms that start mild can swiftly and surprisingly become severe, which I believe is something that’s been documented for a while, though not with that kind of percentage attached to it. But when somebody says something like “most cases are mild” they obviously mean “start mild and stay mild and resolve.” Which clearly is vastly more common than death, regardless of your tolerance for the full package of associated risks.
But then that’s coming after this:
It doesn’t matter how sick you feel or how fast you recover.
Which I guess is just probably wrong (trivially wrong at the extremes but who knows how it works in the middle?) but again sneakily crossing a semantic gap between “mild cases can have lasting sequelae” and “severity has no impact on lasting sequelae.”
By the time I’ve finished writing this it seems like I’m basically piling on but - look, there are some good links here, but also some pretty bad framing.
posted by atoxyl at 2:04 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
The most recent variants are killing people even with mild symptoms. In fact, nearly 40 percent of those who died from Covid in Japan felt mild symptoms before they died, or they didn't feel sick at all.
Kind of an outlandish abuse of different contextual implications of “mild symptoms,” here. The Japanese claim implies that symptoms that start mild can swiftly and surprisingly become severe, which I believe is something that’s been documented for a while, though not with that kind of percentage attached to it. But when somebody says something like “most cases are mild” they obviously mean “start mild and stay mild and resolve.” Which clearly is vastly more common than death, regardless of your tolerance for the full package of associated risks.
But then that’s coming after this:
It doesn’t matter how sick you feel or how fast you recover.
Which I guess is just probably wrong (trivially wrong at the extremes but who knows how it works in the middle?) but again sneakily crossing a semantic gap between “mild cases can have lasting sequelae” and “severity has no impact on lasting sequelae.”
By the time I’ve finished writing this it seems like I’m basically piling on but - look, there are some good links here, but also some pretty bad framing.
posted by atoxyl at 2:04 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
As a person with immune deficiency, I can’t read this website. I’m not being cavalier about my health, but rather I’m protecting my mental health by not working myself into a lather over things I can’t control. Should we wear masks more? Sure! Is long Covid bad? Terrible! But sitting at home obsessing over all the ways that society is failing you also incredibly bad for you. I don’t think reading this is going to change things, so I would advise caution if you are somebody who likes to catastrophise.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:05 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:05 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes it quickly becomes clear looking at this that the author has selected which sources to emphasize and which to not emphasize, although I agree with the conclusions, the specific bullet points present much more certainty than we actually have.As someone who remains quite COVID-cautious and continues to mask indoors in public, and who still only dines out when there's outside seating, I'm going to hard agree with the above, and also note that an FAQ that presents this ...
Covid still presents a significant risk to everyone, regardless of their health or vaccination status.... as an indisputable fact maaaaay not be the best source for anything scientific.
posted by pwe at 2:06 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Several major studies have found that Covid causes severe long-term and permanent brain damage, even in “mild” cases.
You can see the research here.
Some people who have Covid develop long Covid, and some of them certainly have real mental complications. But what research supports the conclusion that all cases of Covid, even mild ones, cause "severe long-term and permanent brain damage"? (I skimmed the list of citations and saw nothing that might even point in that direction.) And if she means only that even mild cases can sometimes result in long Covid, she should say that explicitly.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 2:21 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
You can see the research here.
Some people who have Covid develop long Covid, and some of them certainly have real mental complications. But what research supports the conclusion that all cases of Covid, even mild ones, cause "severe long-term and permanent brain damage"? (I skimmed the list of citations and saw nothing that might even point in that direction.) And if she means only that even mild cases can sometimes result in long Covid, she should say that explicitly.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 2:21 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Every one of these is a Gish Gallop. Ludicrous claim stated vaguely, link to a dozen studies with no indication of how they back up the claim. I'm not going to go on a wild goose chase trying to go point-by-point because the goal is to drown you in one absurd misstatement after another.
This is covid misinformation. It doesn't belong here. Scaremongering is harmful.
posted by daveliepmann at 2:27 PM on October 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
This is covid misinformation. It doesn't belong here. Scaremongering is harmful.
posted by daveliepmann at 2:27 PM on October 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
For a long time, until the NYTimes stopped publishing their daily dataset on GitHub, I (data scientist, but not in a health-related field) maintained a COVID-19 spreadsheet. When I was trying to figure out how to color death rates, I ended up comparing them to the death rate in a bad flu season, which is VERY ROUGHLY 50K deaths in the US, which translates to about 0.04 deaths per 100K daily, or 0.3 deaths per 100K weekly. Right now the US is about 0.3 per 100K per week. So hooray, I guess: COVID-19 is currently killing people at about the rate of a BAD flu year, spread out over the whole year (and on top of any regular flu deaths).
(I'm still masking outside my office at work and in public enclosed spaces.)
posted by The Tensor at 2:31 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
(I'm still masking outside my office at work and in public enclosed spaces.)
posted by The Tensor at 2:31 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
This has a certain paranoid vibe that even I, who am still masking, find rather off-putting and makes me want to give it the side eye.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:38 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 2:38 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
(Currently stuck in the guest room after getting the dreaded two lines, the first time in 3.5 years. I think I am on the upswing)
The conclusions aren’t wrong. There SHOULD be more masking, especially in healthcare settings. There SHOULD be a massive push to improve indoor air quality, in hospitals, in schools, in restaurants- anywhere people gather. We SHOULD be putting huge money into improving vaccines, and getting those vaccines into arms.
All of these things would help us manage Covid and flu, but would also help prepare us for the next airborne virus that is coming.
posted by rockindata at 2:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The conclusions aren’t wrong. There SHOULD be more masking, especially in healthcare settings. There SHOULD be a massive push to improve indoor air quality, in hospitals, in schools, in restaurants- anywhere people gather. We SHOULD be putting huge money into improving vaccines, and getting those vaccines into arms.
All of these things would help us manage Covid and flu, but would also help prepare us for the next airborne virus that is coming.
posted by rockindata at 2:49 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is all so deceptively framed--it seems almost like an exercise in using language to distort fact.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:01 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 3:01 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
COVID misinformation that downplays the risks is bad enough, but COVID misinformation that uses specific rhetorical tricks to vastly overstate the risks is kind of worse because it only reinforces the "lie" narrative of the downplay-misinfo.
I flagged the post and would be happy if the mods delete it. There are enough adversaries to sensible approaches to public health, and we don't need friends like this.
posted by tclark at 3:08 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I flagged the post and would be happy if the mods delete it. There are enough adversaries to sensible approaches to public health, and we don't need friends like this.
posted by tclark at 3:08 PM on October 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Metatalk territory I know but I don't advocate deleting this thread. Several people have written clear explanations of the problems with this article and so it may actually be helpful for people to see the FPP and the comments to aid critical thinking about this type of post.
posted by latkes at 3:11 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 3:11 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
But what research supports the conclusion that all cases of Covid, even mild ones, cause "severe long-term and permanent brain damage"?
There was a UK Biobank study that found a trend of changes on MRI (and specifically shrinkage of certain brain regions, though as I understand what that actually means can be tricky to answer) performed on the same subjects before and after SARS-CoV-2 infection, as well as worse performance on a couple of cognitive tasks, even when excluding subjects who were hospitalized.
In isolation I’d say this is a fair enough use of “COVID causes” to mean “can cause” and not necessarily “always causes.” “Severe, long-term and permanent” is stretching the actual conclusions a bit, though. And these people were infected relatively early in the pandemic, pre vax, but now we’re running into the limits of what one can possibly know in a situation that is evolving (in multiple senses!) so rapidly.
posted by atoxyl at 3:19 PM on October 11, 2023
There was a UK Biobank study that found a trend of changes on MRI (and specifically shrinkage of certain brain regions, though as I understand what that actually means can be tricky to answer) performed on the same subjects before and after SARS-CoV-2 infection, as well as worse performance on a couple of cognitive tasks, even when excluding subjects who were hospitalized.
In isolation I’d say this is a fair enough use of “COVID causes” to mean “can cause” and not necessarily “always causes.” “Severe, long-term and permanent” is stretching the actual conclusions a bit, though. And these people were infected relatively early in the pandemic, pre vax, but now we’re running into the limits of what one can possibly know in a situation that is evolving (in multiple senses!) so rapidly.
posted by atoxyl at 3:19 PM on October 11, 2023
The source for the claim that "Covid itself has been getting more lethal and immune evasive since Omicron, not milder" also describes hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin as "effective prescription drugs" for Covid treatment (WHO and NIH recommend against both drugs). It was published in a pretty dubious-sounding journal. I would not consider it a reliable source.
The source for the claim that "Most at-home tests aren’t that reliable" is actually much more nuanced than that. Among other things, it quotes an expert who says that "A positive test is almost always true" whereas "a single negative test is not enough to rule out infection."
posted by Gerald Bostock at 3:21 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The source for the claim that "Most at-home tests aren’t that reliable" is actually much more nuanced than that. Among other things, it quotes an expert who says that "A positive test is almost always true" whereas "a single negative test is not enough to rule out infection."
posted by Gerald Bostock at 3:21 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Metatalk territory I know but I don't advocate deleting this thread.
I do. There is more than enough Covid disinformation in the world and Metafilter doesn't need it on the front page. Not everyone reads the comments.
Also, if there was a "disinformation" flag I would apply it to this post.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:23 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I do. There is more than enough Covid disinformation in the world and Metafilter doesn't need it on the front page. Not everyone reads the comments.
Also, if there was a "disinformation" flag I would apply it to this post.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:23 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am 75% sure this same author has been linked on the Blue before and the thread was deleted that time, too.
(I've become pretty strongly anti-doomer, so I am cool with deleting this sort of stuff)
On long covid: prevalence may actually be going down if this CDC survey is accurate?
posted by BungaDunga at 3:29 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I've become pretty strongly anti-doomer, so I am cool with deleting this sort of stuff)
On long covid: prevalence may actually be going down if this CDC survey is accurate?
posted by BungaDunga at 3:29 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is active disinformation and we shouldn't be boosting with a link on the front page here.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:29 PM on October 11, 2023
posted by Dip Flash at 3:29 PM on October 11, 2023
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