UFO? UAP? WTF?
November 14, 2023 12:55 PM Subscribe
"...The deeper I got into this particular subject, the more I came to realize that the government’s UFO cover-up has primarily been a cover-up motivated not by knowledge but of ignorance. It’s not that the government knows something it doesn’t want to tell us; it’s that the government is uncomfortable telling us it doesn’t know anything at all."UFOs and the U.S. government: The push towards greater transparency
Transcript included
Just heard this interview on WBUR FM's On Point and found it fascinating.
WAPO Review: The Inside Story of the U.S. Government’s Search for Alien Life Here — and Out There
Just take a look at American movies and media:
During the Cold War, the commies are the bad guys.
Then the Cold War ends. We start getting X-Files and Men in Black and Independence Day with aliens as the bad guys.
Then 9/11 happens, and scary Muslims become the bad guys.
Now the War on Terror has fizzled out, and suddenly we're getting aliens in the media again.
It's just a way to prop up defense budgets until the War on Woke starts up and we start spending billions on drones that shoot protesters or identify pregnant women at the border.
Though I got to say, these were the two funniest sentences in the links:
Elizondo had just resigned from the Pentagon, citing his frustration at the slow pace of its UFO investigations. He had also hooked up with an unlikely ally: Tom DeLonge, formerly of the rock band Blink-182.
*eye roll*
posted by AlSweigart at 2:19 PM on November 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
During the Cold War, the commies are the bad guys.
Then the Cold War ends. We start getting X-Files and Men in Black and Independence Day with aliens as the bad guys.
Then 9/11 happens, and scary Muslims become the bad guys.
Now the War on Terror has fizzled out, and suddenly we're getting aliens in the media again.
It's just a way to prop up defense budgets until the War on Woke starts up and we start spending billions on drones that shoot protesters or identify pregnant women at the border.
Though I got to say, these were the two funniest sentences in the links:
Elizondo had just resigned from the Pentagon, citing his frustration at the slow pace of its UFO investigations. He had also hooked up with an unlikely ally: Tom DeLonge, formerly of the rock band Blink-182.
*eye roll*
posted by AlSweigart at 2:19 PM on November 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
Just take a look at American movies and media:
During the Cold War, the commies are the bad guys.
Well... yes and no. I mean, I get that you're doing a giant sweep toward the point you're trying to make, but for a great portion of the Cold War, the bad guys were aliens who were disguised as humans. Stepford Wives, Body Snatchers, Things all spring immediately to mind, but there was a whole host of "the enemy is within" things that were VERY DEFINITELY a product of the Cold War and its paranoia. Portraying USSR agents as Bad Guys was maybe an action trope, but was not a horror or suspense tool very much at all.
posted by hippybear at 2:30 PM on November 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
During the Cold War, the commies are the bad guys.
Well... yes and no. I mean, I get that you're doing a giant sweep toward the point you're trying to make, but for a great portion of the Cold War, the bad guys were aliens who were disguised as humans. Stepford Wives, Body Snatchers, Things all spring immediately to mind, but there was a whole host of "the enemy is within" things that were VERY DEFINITELY a product of the Cold War and its paranoia. Portraying USSR agents as Bad Guys was maybe an action trope, but was not a horror or suspense tool very much at all.
posted by hippybear at 2:30 PM on November 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
It's quite off to conflate ufology (a weird intersection of cult, pseudoscience and conspiracy theory) with SETI (a legitimate, if minor, subfield of astronomy).
The government has never even tried to keep a secret like the existence of serious evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence. The only secrets that have been kept for any significant period of time have been engineering specifications of weapons systems, and even then it's only the specifications themselves, not that the specifications exist.
posted by MattD at 2:34 PM on November 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
The government has never even tried to keep a secret like the existence of serious evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence. The only secrets that have been kept for any significant period of time have been engineering specifications of weapons systems, and even then it's only the specifications themselves, not that the specifications exist.
posted by MattD at 2:34 PM on November 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
The only secrets that have been kept for any significant period of time have been engineering specifications of weapons systems, and even then it's only the specifications themselves, not that the specifications exist.
The Manhattan Project was a pretty well-kept secret, I think? At least for the number of years it needed to be secret between inception and explosion which sort of, pardon the phrase, blew its cover.
The idea that the government has been able to keep a secret of the magnitude of "we have alien corpses and spaceships and are investigating them" across literally generations and untold thousands of people having come in contact with the project is ludicrous to me.
posted by hippybear at 2:37 PM on November 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
The Manhattan Project was a pretty well-kept secret, I think? At least for the number of years it needed to be secret between inception and explosion which sort of, pardon the phrase, blew its cover.
The idea that the government has been able to keep a secret of the magnitude of "we have alien corpses and spaceships and are investigating them" across literally generations and untold thousands of people having come in contact with the project is ludicrous to me.
posted by hippybear at 2:37 PM on November 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Recent UFO sightings by military pilots frighten me, not because I think they're evidence of real things flying in impossible ways, but because I think they're false images, evidence of glitches in their systems or evidence of intentional fuckery with their system. We don't need military forces imagining they're being attacked.
posted by pracowity at 2:50 PM on November 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 2:50 PM on November 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think they're false images, evidence of glitches in their systems or evidence of intentional fuckery with their system
Maybe they are? I don't know enough about all those military pilot flight systems to know what recorded on the video shared are things detected that a human eye could see or if it's all just enhanced so there is no normal light without processing in the video.
I mean, with these modern pilot sightings and Havana Syndrome, it's entirely possible that others on the planet have developed technology that we simply don't have the imagination to conceive of, so we're ducking to "aliens" and "mass psychosis" to explain what could be pretty mundane if the curtain were pulled back.
posted by hippybear at 2:53 PM on November 14, 2023
Maybe they are? I don't know enough about all those military pilot flight systems to know what recorded on the video shared are things detected that a human eye could see or if it's all just enhanced so there is no normal light without processing in the video.
I mean, with these modern pilot sightings and Havana Syndrome, it's entirely possible that others on the planet have developed technology that we simply don't have the imagination to conceive of, so we're ducking to "aliens" and "mass psychosis" to explain what could be pretty mundane if the curtain were pulled back.
posted by hippybear at 2:53 PM on November 14, 2023
Please do not derail this into a discussion about Havana Syndrome. That's not this thread.
posted by hippybear at 2:54 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:54 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Manhattan Project was a pretty well-kept secret, I think? At least for the number of years it needed to be secret between inception and explosion which sort of, pardon the phrase, blew its cover.
Not really. Others had a pretty good idea what was going on; a Soviet physicist noticed, for example, that researchers (and publications) covering entire branches of nuclear physics dropped out of site and figured out what was happening. I had a professor who was a grad student at the time telling stories about the comedy of the fact that all the grad students were doing research on uranium and all pretending that their study of uranium was super top secret, even though they shared a lab and could recognize uranium metal when they saw it.
But the secret was the details, not the existence of the program.
posted by mark k at 2:57 PM on November 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not really. Others had a pretty good idea what was going on; a Soviet physicist noticed, for example, that researchers (and publications) covering entire branches of nuclear physics dropped out of site and figured out what was happening. I had a professor who was a grad student at the time telling stories about the comedy of the fact that all the grad students were doing research on uranium and all pretending that their study of uranium was super top secret, even though they shared a lab and could recognize uranium metal when they saw it.
But the secret was the details, not the existence of the program.
posted by mark k at 2:57 PM on November 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think they're false images, evidence of glitches in their systems or evidence of intentional fuckery with their system
Ehhhh, not really. While there might be a possibility for visual questionability, there has to be a physical object for the tracking systems to get a lock, which they most certainly do in the videos.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:58 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ehhhh, not really. While there might be a possibility for visual questionability, there has to be a physical object for the tracking systems to get a lock, which they most certainly do in the videos.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:58 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have to add that the transcript is incomplete which stops at 20 minutes in the program -- so actually listening to the broadcast would be informative. Aliens are barely mentioned. What Graff says over and over is that the government has no idea what UAPs are and are scared not because they think they are aliens as much as they think they are Russian or Chinese.
China has not only hypersonic aerial drones to take out US aircraft carriers but also slower submersible aerial drones which can travel underwater and can pop up and then take flight to do the same at close range.
The idea that the famous black cubes in clear spheres that the Nimiitz F-18 pilors saw with their own eyes are Chinese as well are terrifying to them. But you'd have to listen to hear that. But, you know, I used to post long blockquotes of links in the past for the same reason because people never clicked on the links.
But then that's always been more a feature than a bug hereabouts since 1999. All the same, it is really worth a listen. In my humble opinion. Myself, I don't think it's aliens. What got me was the idea nobody in government seems to know what they are and are too scared to admit it for obvious cya reasons.
btw, SETI is mentioned in the program, which is why it's in the tags. I was really grasping at straws as to how tobtag it. Again, an actual listen would clear that up.
posted by y2karl at 3:01 PM on November 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
China has not only hypersonic aerial drones to take out US aircraft carriers but also slower submersible aerial drones which can travel underwater and can pop up and then take flight to do the same at close range.
The idea that the famous black cubes in clear spheres that the Nimiitz F-18 pilors saw with their own eyes are Chinese as well are terrifying to them. But you'd have to listen to hear that. But, you know, I used to post long blockquotes of links in the past for the same reason because people never clicked on the links.
But then that's always been more a feature than a bug hereabouts since 1999. All the same, it is really worth a listen. In my humble opinion. Myself, I don't think it's aliens. What got me was the idea nobody in government seems to know what they are and are too scared to admit it for obvious cya reasons.
btw, SETI is mentioned in the program, which is why it's in the tags. I was really grasping at straws as to how tobtag it. Again, an actual listen would clear that up.
posted by y2karl at 3:01 PM on November 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
The only secrets that have been kept for any significant period of time have been engineering specifications of weapons systems, and even then it's only the specifications themselves, not that the specifications exist.
We have a thread just a day or two back explaining that Trump and Biden have both postponed the release of the JFK files, for inscrutable reasons.
posted by mhoye at 3:01 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
We have a thread just a day or two back explaining that Trump and Biden have both postponed the release of the JFK files, for inscrutable reasons.
posted by mhoye at 3:01 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
My conspiracy is that Raytheon/northup Grumman or whoever is shipping buggy radar/thermal trackers or othertech and then using the UAP excuse to cover up bugs and push for more money.
Kind of like the old conspiracy that computer Anti-virus companies made all the real viruses.
id guess many of the visible things are likely Chinese drones with strong Ra far/terminal paterns
posted by CostcoCultist at 3:03 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Kind of like the old conspiracy that computer Anti-virus companies made all the real viruses.
id guess many of the visible things are likely Chinese drones with strong Ra far/terminal paterns
posted by CostcoCultist at 3:03 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Every time it comes up of late I hear even skeptics say "things are just so terrible right now, I don't care if the aliens are good or bad, I just want something." So, they get it's just a new fill in for religion they just won't admit it.
I also suspect the current admin have been happier to let this foment cause it's a less terrifying area of conpiracy to let people latch onto, though given how fairly benign theories lead people into far worse territory they may be playing with fire.
posted by opsin at 3:07 PM on November 14, 2023
I also suspect the current admin have been happier to let this foment cause it's a less terrifying area of conpiracy to let people latch onto, though given how fairly benign theories lead people into far worse territory they may be playing with fire.
posted by opsin at 3:07 PM on November 14, 2023
The idea that because they are pilots for the Air Force, they are also experts of flight engineering is just bizarre. And just because they are Americans, they are free to imagine that China [or any enemy] has technology so far beyond their understanding, that's it's basically magic. Because that's what Americans think of Asia: it's either borderline magic or racism. Like Mexico is filled with endlessly hard laboring people just able to take any American job while also crossing the border and immediately on the dole.
It's like saying that because I work in software, I can perfectly develop and explain any software that has do to with computers. Or because I've cooked, I could make any meal. It's a total non-sequitur. Or parents thinking kids can't go to the park because every person there is looking to sex traffic their kid.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:13 PM on November 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
It's like saying that because I work in software, I can perfectly develop and explain any software that has do to with computers. Or because I've cooked, I could make any meal. It's a total non-sequitur. Or parents thinking kids can't go to the park because every person there is looking to sex traffic their kid.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:13 PM on November 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm not believing in aliens until I see Gort.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:24 PM on November 14, 2023
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:24 PM on November 14, 2023
Not really. Others had a pretty good idea what was going on; a Soviet physicist noticed, for example, that researchers (and publications) covering entire branches of nuclear physics dropped out of site and figured out what was happening.
I will note, I said this was a secret kept well enough for the time it needed to be kept.
The idea that Roswell in '47 could happen and EIGHTY YEARS LATER it having not been leaked...
Manhattan Project as a secret lasted fewer than 10 years.
And as you say, it wasn't a very well kept secret.
I don't know if you made this comment to support the idea of aliens having been kept secret across literal generations, but I don't think your point supports that idea.
posted by hippybear at 3:30 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I will note, I said this was a secret kept well enough for the time it needed to be kept.
The idea that Roswell in '47 could happen and EIGHTY YEARS LATER it having not been leaked...
Manhattan Project as a secret lasted fewer than 10 years.
And as you say, it wasn't a very well kept secret.
I don't know if you made this comment to support the idea of aliens having been kept secret across literal generations, but I don't think your point supports that idea.
posted by hippybear at 3:30 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
And just because they are Americans, they are free to imagine that China [or any enemy] has technology so far beyond their understanding, that's it's basically magic. Because that's what Americans think of Asia:
During the Cold War they thought the UFOs might be Russian so I don't think you need "racism" for this one. It's more just "Foreign Enemies" of any kind.
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:34 PM on November 14, 2023
During the Cold War they thought the UFOs might be Russian so I don't think you need "racism" for this one. It's more just "Foreign Enemies" of any kind.
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:34 PM on November 14, 2023
UFO conspiracies ramping up in 2023. Just in time for 2024?
Please watch the dancing green alien puppet on my left hand. He's so much cuter than the orange one on my right.
IMO, all the above mentioned comes into play, but Hollywood celebrities and little green men are much more entertaining than real world political issues. It's a fine distraction for the public.
posted by BlueHorse at 3:35 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Please watch the dancing green alien puppet on my left hand. He's so much cuter than the orange one on my right.
IMO, all the above mentioned comes into play, but Hollywood celebrities and little green men are much more entertaining than real world political issues. It's a fine distraction for the public.
posted by BlueHorse at 3:35 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
hippybear: Please do not derail this into a discussion about Havana Syndrome. That's not this thread.
I’ll need you all to look at this dot
*
POOF
This thread is nothing more than swamp gas refracting the light from Venus.
posted by dr_dank at 3:55 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’ll need you all to look at this dot
*
POOF
This thread is nothing more than swamp gas refracting the light from Venus.
posted by dr_dank at 3:55 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
As an ordained minister of a church that has been openly and actively spreading the word, since the late 70’s, that space aliens, called the X-ists, will be arriving in their saucers on July 5th, 1998, it behooves me to say that it’s not transparency that we are lacking, instead we just need a better prediction of the date.
posted by njohnson23 at 4:57 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 4:57 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
space aliens, called the X-ists, will be arriving in their saucers on July 5th, 1998
I thought they'd figured out their error. They were looking at the prophecies upside-down, and the aliens will actually arrive on July 5, 8661.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:36 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I thought they'd figured out their error. They were looking at the prophecies upside-down, and the aliens will actually arrive on July 5, 8661.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:36 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I didn’t see any mention of Cardi B in there; didn’t she sing about UAP?
posted by TedW at 6:02 PM on November 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by TedW at 6:02 PM on November 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
No, that was "double u a p".
Now, whether this means double UAP or double-U AP remains unclear Obviously in one the entire UAP is doubled whereas in the latter...
Oh wait, sorry, this just coming in... There is a letter W.
That clears that up then.
Sad. I was hoping for a full doubling of UAP. The lyrics around that seemed promising. I have no idea what this is about now.
posted by hippybear at 6:11 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Now, whether this means double UAP or double-U AP remains unclear Obviously in one the entire UAP is doubled whereas in the latter...
Oh wait, sorry, this just coming in... There is a letter W.
That clears that up then.
Sad. I was hoping for a full doubling of UAP. The lyrics around that seemed promising. I have no idea what this is about now.
posted by hippybear at 6:11 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
If I was some smart guy jet engine engineer I don’t know if I would angry or flattered that my work was attributed to aliens.
posted by oldnumberseven at 6:38 PM on November 14, 2023
posted by oldnumberseven at 6:38 PM on November 14, 2023
*it was swamp gas all along*
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:53 PM on November 14, 2023
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 6:53 PM on November 14, 2023
He had also hooked up with an unlikely ally: Tom DeLonge, formerly of the rock band Blink-182.
What they won't tell you is that Blink-182 was also the successor to less successful Classified Double Top Secret projects Blink-153 and Blink-177, which were studying alien pop music powerhouses that unfortunately had to be buried in the radioactive sands outside of Las Vegas.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:14 PM on November 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
What they won't tell you is that Blink-182 was also the successor to less successful Classified Double Top Secret projects Blink-153 and Blink-177, which were studying alien pop music powerhouses that unfortunately had to be buried in the radioactive sands outside of Las Vegas.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:14 PM on November 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
Honestly my favorite thing about the resurgence in UFO popularity is watching the incredibly well thought out debunking videos that people are putting out. We have computing power at our fingertips that we could only speculate about in the 80s and 90s, and while most people use it for messaging and games, other people model out popular UFO footage, even recreating the scene in Blender to determine the trajectory of the object in the scene. I remember pretty distinctly when that particular video came out - coupled with the audio, it was weird and compelling. I also remember someone positing at the time that it was "just glare on the lens" with a pretty confident tone. I didn't think that years later, I'd be able to run a simulation in my browser that does a solid job of proving that it's just a glare.
posted by Leviathant at 8:14 PM on November 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Leviathant at 8:14 PM on November 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think also, something people who look at these things but don't think deeply about video and lenses and stuff, is that is can be a glare or flare WITHIN the lens. Like, sometimes these lenses are a pretty thick bit of glass, and the visual artifacts that can manifest can happen in ways that aren't a logical reflection off the surface, but are taking place within the thickness of the glass in a way that cannot be easily logicked out by a human brain.
posted by hippybear at 8:22 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:22 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
The podcast Historical Blindness just finished a 4-part episode run called "UFO Whistleblowers, An American Tradition". Parts 1, 2, and 3 are currently up on the website, but part 4 is out as a podcast but not yet on the website.
posted by ShooBoo at 8:25 PM on November 14, 2023
posted by ShooBoo at 8:25 PM on November 14, 2023
"Captain Pike has an illusion, and you have reality; may you find your way as pleasant."
posted by clavdivs at 8:28 PM on November 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 8:28 PM on November 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
The idea that the government has been able to keep a secret of the magnitude of "we have alien corpses and spaceships and are investigating them" across literally generations and untold thousands of people having come in contact with the project is ludicrous to me.
The truth is that as long as there is no physical evidence, any story from any person will be dismissed out of hand. It could very well be that there are secret projects in which aliens are involved, but could be impossible to smuggle out physical evidence, for any number of reasons. And what if that evidence is simply, say, a metal allow that can be manufactured by humans? No one will care. What if first hand witnesses spill all they know to every media outlet and person they know? No one will care.
So it's possible--not probable, but possible--that any number of the alien/UFO stories we've heard over the years--and dismissed out of hand--were actually the real thing, but we have no idea how to discern that. So I disagree with the above; I think with the automatic knee-jerk debunking that accompanies most UFO stories, there's little chance that most people would take them seriously. The Cigarette Smoking Man-types behind the scenes would just shrug off any whistleblowing attempts.
posted by zardoz at 11:25 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
The truth is that as long as there is no physical evidence, any story from any person will be dismissed out of hand. It could very well be that there are secret projects in which aliens are involved, but could be impossible to smuggle out physical evidence, for any number of reasons. And what if that evidence is simply, say, a metal allow that can be manufactured by humans? No one will care. What if first hand witnesses spill all they know to every media outlet and person they know? No one will care.
So it's possible--not probable, but possible--that any number of the alien/UFO stories we've heard over the years--and dismissed out of hand--were actually the real thing, but we have no idea how to discern that. So I disagree with the above; I think with the automatic knee-jerk debunking that accompanies most UFO stories, there's little chance that most people would take them seriously. The Cigarette Smoking Man-types behind the scenes would just shrug off any whistleblowing attempts.
posted by zardoz at 11:25 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
If we sent spacecraft to another solar system we would leave a footprint. A big one. We'd be sending Von Neumann self-replicating probes or colony ships. It's too far to go just to plant a flag and probe some cattle.
What I'm saying is that if aliens had visited our solar system I'd expect to see evidence on the order of a Dyson sphere around our sun (and us never having evolved)
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:32 AM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
What I'm saying is that if aliens had visited our solar system I'd expect to see evidence on the order of a Dyson sphere around our sun (and us never having evolved)
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:32 AM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
[The US military] are scared not because they think they are aliens as much as they think they are Russian or Chinese.
These tapes also reveal some means and methods, and describe the limits of military intelligence. It s easy to see why they would be classified by default.
The US military, especially the Air Force, likes to project a 'spooky competence' as part of strategic communications. Look at the communications around the new bomber and fighter announcements.
The endless repeat of the F22 engagement with Iranian pilots. Part of USAF's military plan is to communicate that they are so competent and stealthy, you never see them coming, and they always know more than you.
This committee definitely undermines that. So the Pentagon won't like this, just due to the vibes, that our Pilots are only human.
posted by eustatic at 12:44 AM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
These tapes also reveal some means and methods, and describe the limits of military intelligence. It s easy to see why they would be classified by default.
The US military, especially the Air Force, likes to project a 'spooky competence' as part of strategic communications. Look at the communications around the new bomber and fighter announcements.
The endless repeat of the F22 engagement with Iranian pilots. Part of USAF's military plan is to communicate that they are so competent and stealthy, you never see them coming, and they always know more than you.
This committee definitely undermines that. So the Pentagon won't like this, just due to the vibes, that our Pilots are only human.
posted by eustatic at 12:44 AM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's probably nothing. But hope is not a strategy, especially when it comes to national defence. Continue funding actual scientific investigation until we are able to more confidently drop the "U" out of both UAP and UFO.
The rest is noise, distraction, or a grift.
(Though per my previous comments on this site, I still believe there's also very interesting sociological and psychological research to be done around this phenomenon but that's separate to what's being discussed here)
posted by slimepuppy at 1:42 AM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
The rest is noise, distraction, or a grift.
(Though per my previous comments on this site, I still believe there's also very interesting sociological and psychological research to be done around this phenomenon but that's separate to what's being discussed here)
posted by slimepuppy at 1:42 AM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
During the Cold War they thought the UFOs might be Russian so I don't think you need "racism" for this one. It's more just "Foreign Enemies" of any kind.
Racism towards foreign enemies, yes.
posted by Dysk at 3:03 AM on November 15, 2023
Racism towards foreign enemies, yes.
posted by Dysk at 3:03 AM on November 15, 2023
And what if that evidence is simply, say, a metal allow that can be manufactured by humans? No one will care. What if first hand witnesses spill all they know to every media outlet and person they know? No one will care.
Big words for 'possible'. The military dedicated $22 million dollars for some art projects this year alone, Senator Harry Reid (former majority leader of the US Senate) cared. People will care when it's not total nonsense. And if the best we can get from intergalactic space travel is a few pieces of metal we could make ourselves, that seems like a pretty poor expenditure of $22 million dollars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:50 AM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Big words for 'possible'. The military dedicated $22 million dollars for some art projects this year alone, Senator Harry Reid (former majority leader of the US Senate) cared. People will care when it's not total nonsense. And if the best we can get from intergalactic space travel is a few pieces of metal we could make ourselves, that seems like a pretty poor expenditure of $22 million dollars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:50 AM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gnawed Dinosaur Bones Reveal Carnivore Habits in Jurassic America
posted by y2karl at 10:55 AM on November 15, 2023
posted by y2karl at 10:55 AM on November 15, 2023
there has to be a physical object for the tracking systems to get a lock, which they most certainly do in the videos.
If you can get the right misleading data into a tracking system, you can make it "see" and lock on to supersonic unicorns trailing rainbows.
posted by pracowity at 2:15 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you can get the right misleading data into a tracking system, you can make it "see" and lock on to supersonic unicorns trailing rainbows.
posted by pracowity at 2:15 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
This did lead to the tragic death of Nyan Cat several years ago, if you recall.
posted by hippybear at 2:21 PM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:21 PM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
No other object has been misidentified as a flying saucer more often than the planet Venus.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:50 PM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:50 PM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
People who live under so much pointless light pollution are shocked to see a planet.
(I wish people with outdoor lighting would turn it off when they're not outdoors or get motion-activated lighting where needed.)
posted by pracowity at 8:35 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I wish people with outdoor lighting would turn it off when they're not outdoors or get motion-activated lighting where needed.)
posted by pracowity at 8:35 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Garrett M. Graft's last book, Watergate: A New History was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize. That Washington Post review of it quotes him on his methods:
All the caveats dogpiled above, he quotes. He is not a true believer. But he researches to a T. I happened to hate listen to the intro of Coast to Coast AM with George Noory last night as I often do and, surprise, surprise, Graff was the guest on the first of the two segments. And got sucked in. Because Graff went everywherein excruciating detail -- including to things like alien abductions, things which are the intellectual kyyptonite of the topic.
He mentioned the death of the first pilot to die chasing something over Tennessee in 1948 in his P-51 Mustang. That was quite the story -- the official report was pilot hypoxia from climbing too high too fast. As opposed to getting shot down by said UFO, Graff explained. The whole spectrum of post-Art Bell I Want To Believe to No Shit - I Am Convinced! types called in and Graff knew all their stories in detail and had his own favorites -- but they never were the usual suspects. And his read was that alien abductions make little sense to him yet... something physical happened to a small percentage of those folks claiming to be abductees and whatever that was deserves to be studied.
What he was mainly on about was -- in small percentages again -- is the US military has been encountering what appear to be drones in restricted military airspaces which can do, and sorry oldnumberseven, what no known jet aircraft can do anywhere because jet engines burn jet fuel in huge amounts and where are these drones's fuel tanks when they are pacing F-18s, not to mention while darting to and in and under and out the ocean, anyway? Because jet engines don't work underwater.
And what is scary to him is that the military doesn't know what they are dealing with and are afraid to admit it. Graff is scared that either way, Aliens! or Not Aliens! or one Intelligence Agency's secret project's hands not knowing the other Intelligence Agency's what the other secret Intelligence Hand's project's hands are doing, that anybody but the US having these drones is what is scary.
Because of how they fly being so far beyond what is the known state of the art of flying.
Not to mention reports of such UFO/UAPs having appeared over nuclear missile installations since such installations have existed. Because what these putative drones may be able to do is far beyond anything we know. Graff is not so much it's Aliens! as it's Aliens! Can't Be Ruled Out as yet. And, from the documentary archival record, he's worried because the government is worried and clueless and afraid to admit it. And that worries him.
As for a $200 million dollar investigation -- in a time of trillion dollar budgets, that is such a microscopic slice of one tiny crumb of a bean. I mean, really -- some investigation is warranted because the if not us, then who? really does matter... because of the return of Nuclear Hair Trigger Alerts for one.
Those went away for awhile but now are so back. We've, the human race have dodged more than one bullet so far. That we should not blindly press our luck without a little further investigation just is not that big of an ask.
imho .
Myself, I hope to God it's not aliens because they aren't going to be doe eyed short trimmed upright bipedal goldendoodles with interesting foreheads. They're going to be fucking aliens. And it may not be Magellan meets the natives so much as the robot grade school janitor finds a red ant hive in the playground because aliens and wtf!? do they know.
posted by y2karl at 11:55 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
“My goal was not to re-investigate,” Graff writes, explaining that he “purposefully chose not to conduct fresh interviews.” Instead, he decided “to tell the story based on the documentary archival record,” which has been steadily expanding over the decades.From what I heard in the NPR interview, this is what he did with UFOs/UAPs.
All the caveats dogpiled above, he quotes. He is not a true believer. But he researches to a T. I happened to hate listen to the intro of Coast to Coast AM with George Noory last night as I often do and, surprise, surprise, Graff was the guest on the first of the two segments. And got sucked in. Because Graff went everywherein excruciating detail -- including to things like alien abductions, things which are the intellectual kyyptonite of the topic.
He mentioned the death of the first pilot to die chasing something over Tennessee in 1948 in his P-51 Mustang. That was quite the story -- the official report was pilot hypoxia from climbing too high too fast. As opposed to getting shot down by said UFO, Graff explained. The whole spectrum of post-Art Bell I Want To Believe to No Shit - I Am Convinced! types called in and Graff knew all their stories in detail and had his own favorites -- but they never were the usual suspects. And his read was that alien abductions make little sense to him yet... something physical happened to a small percentage of those folks claiming to be abductees and whatever that was deserves to be studied.
What he was mainly on about was -- in small percentages again -- is the US military has been encountering what appear to be drones in restricted military airspaces which can do, and sorry oldnumberseven, what no known jet aircraft can do anywhere because jet engines burn jet fuel in huge amounts and where are these drones's fuel tanks when they are pacing F-18s, not to mention while darting to and in and under and out the ocean, anyway? Because jet engines don't work underwater.
And what is scary to him is that the military doesn't know what they are dealing with and are afraid to admit it. Graff is scared that either way, Aliens! or Not Aliens! or one Intelligence Agency's secret project's hands not knowing the other Intelligence Agency's what the other secret Intelligence Hand's project's hands are doing, that anybody but the US having these drones is what is scary.
Because of how they fly being so far beyond what is the known state of the art of flying.
Not to mention reports of such UFO/UAPs having appeared over nuclear missile installations since such installations have existed. Because what these putative drones may be able to do is far beyond anything we know. Graff is not so much it's Aliens! as it's Aliens! Can't Be Ruled Out as yet. And, from the documentary archival record, he's worried because the government is worried and clueless and afraid to admit it. And that worries him.
As for a $200 million dollar investigation -- in a time of trillion dollar budgets, that is such a microscopic slice of one tiny crumb of a bean. I mean, really -- some investigation is warranted because the if not us, then who? really does matter... because of the return of Nuclear Hair Trigger Alerts for one.
Those went away for awhile but now are so back. We've, the human race have dodged more than one bullet so far. That we should not blindly press our luck without a little further investigation just is not that big of an ask.
imho .
Myself, I hope to God it's not aliens because they aren't going to be doe eyed short trimmed upright bipedal goldendoodles with interesting foreheads. They're going to be fucking aliens. And it may not be Magellan meets the natives so much as the robot grade school janitor finds a red ant hive in the playground because aliens and wtf!? do they know.
posted by y2karl at 11:55 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Without being complacent, I find it very difficult to believe that our known earthly adversaries are an order or two of magnitude ahead of the USA and allies in not one but several technologies necessary to produce such craft (e.g. materials, propulsion, handling extreme G-forces, overcoming air resistance at ultra-high speed for non-aerodynamic forms, etc).
Not to mention that they needed to have done so at least several decades ago, when UAP reports first really kicked off.
There is nobody that can tick both those boxes, or even the first one. China is the only other entity even close to being vaguely plausible, and they have simply not had the time to catch up and surpass the USA by that degree. They are not miracle workers, and remain as constrained by physics and economics and human intelligence as the rest of us. And if they had done it we wouldn't be wondering about it, they would have already used it to neuter and subjugate their opponents. Xi in particular does not strike me as the kind to be waiting around to use that kind of extraordinary once-in-a-millennia advantage.
Which is not to say I think it is aliens either.
I just don't know. Which is scary enough on its own, given what is potentially at stake.
posted by Pouteria at 12:56 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not to mention that they needed to have done so at least several decades ago, when UAP reports first really kicked off.
There is nobody that can tick both those boxes, or even the first one. China is the only other entity even close to being vaguely plausible, and they have simply not had the time to catch up and surpass the USA by that degree. They are not miracle workers, and remain as constrained by physics and economics and human intelligence as the rest of us. And if they had done it we wouldn't be wondering about it, they would have already used it to neuter and subjugate their opponents. Xi in particular does not strike me as the kind to be waiting around to use that kind of extraordinary once-in-a-millennia advantage.
Which is not to say I think it is aliens either.
I just don't know. Which is scary enough on its own, given what is potentially at stake.
posted by Pouteria at 12:56 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Compared to Art Bell, listening to George Noory's Coast to Coast.AM is the sonic equivalent to Snopes's Ad Arbitrage Clickbait -- each hour is 50% ads for 1-800 DUI Away! or offers of Carnivora the magic ground up Venus Flytrap mix that cures man, woman and dog of every disease possible in 5 days to folks offering to jack up your sinking house with massive injections of water under it which last forever -- Not! -- or how to buy gold bars online to be held for you online because that's just as safe as holding a gold bar in a bank safety deposit box, which everybody knows, Right?
The incredibility of the program is vastly outmatched by the incredibility of the advertisers.
Plus another 25% of the time spent is playing bumper music of usually the whole damn Frank Sinatra song.
On the call in segments, Noory let every caller talk about themselves as long as they goddamn well want to talk. Art Bell would've have jerked their asses to the curb with a What is your question please!? after 5 seconds of such nonsense.
Even so Graffe knew with whom he was dealing, both host and audience, and did not pander. He managed to get a lot said within what very little time he had to talk.
posted by y2karl at 3:32 PM on November 16, 2023
The incredibility of the program is vastly outmatched by the incredibility of the advertisers.
Plus another 25% of the time spent is playing bumper music of usually the whole damn Frank Sinatra song.
On the call in segments, Noory let every caller talk about themselves as long as they goddamn well want to talk. Art Bell would've have jerked their asses to the curb with a What is your question please!? after 5 seconds of such nonsense.
Even so Graffe knew with whom he was dealing, both host and audience, and did not pander. He managed to get a lot said within what very little time he had to talk.
posted by y2karl at 3:32 PM on November 16, 2023
I don't think I've ever listened to Noory.
I think art had some leverage over his commercial time if something interesting is happening he'd go a little bit longer and make up the time, kind of like a jet plane.
posted by clavdivs at 4:56 PM on November 16, 2023
I think art had some leverage over his commercial time if something interesting is happening he'd go a little bit longer and make up the time, kind of like a jet plane.
posted by clavdivs at 4:56 PM on November 16, 2023
Pouteria, this is exactly why my crackpot theory for this is "fairies from some alternate reality alongside ours, periodically slipping in and pranking us."
*shrug*
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:42 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
*shrug*
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:42 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
...In 2020 I saw an interview with former CIA director John Brennan, who said something along the lines of, “There’s some stuff flying around out there that we don’t know what it is.” I’ve covered Brennan for years. He has spent his entire career in the upper ranks of the U.S. intelligence community. I think there can’t be that many mysteries in John Brennan’s life; if he wants to know the answer to something, he has a $16 billion-a-year intelligence apparatus that can deliver him the answer by the end of the day. If he thought there was something interesting and worthy of further study up there, I thought that was something worth trying to explore in a book.The scariest thing about UFOs (it's not the aliens)
The government’s effort to manage the narrative only created more suspicion. You discuss ufology radio hosts who caught the ears of people like Alex Jones.
In many cases those people aren’t wrong that the government was lying to them. It was just not the lie that they thought the government was [telling]. But there is a much straighter line from UFO conspiracies to January 6 than I think most Americans would realize.
...One other thread of this story is how tenuous those efforts to get that deep understanding are. Carl Sagan was a powerful advocate in the ‘70s, and NASA benefited from the questions that he was asking. But such efforts seemed to be contingent on one or two lawmakers deciding that it wasn’t worth spending the money on.
That’s part of what was shocking, looking back on this. You’re talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars, or a couple of million dollars. That’s the windshield budget for the U.S. Army for the month of May.
How did you separate fact from fiction? I imagine you were overwhelmed with stories about abductions and sightings and cattle mutilations.
I tried in general to keep my thread as the U.S. government’s debate and discussion around this subject. There’s a lot of ufology and paranormal-adjacent stuff that is important to know for a full understanding of the history of the subject. But that fundamentally doesn’t impact the government’s view of the subject. What I tried to zero in on was 75 years of the U.S. government’s involvement.
In that light, the book is also a kind of shadow history of Americans’ distrust in government through much of the 20th century.
Yes. The early stages of the flying saucer age really is the story of the start of the Cold War. Early on, the government doesn’t really care whether UFOs are aliens. Once the Air Force figures out that UFOs are not secret Soviet craft being built by Nazi rocket scientists, they lose interest in the subject, even though there’s probably still a pretty interesting answer out there about what these crafts are. By that point, the subject has taken hold in public popular culture, and then it becomes a story of ever-rising public interest and pop-culture attention, driven by ever darker conspiracy theories about what the government may or may not be hiding.
The government’s effort to manage the narrative only created more suspicion. You discuss ufology radio hosts who caught the ears of people like Alex Jones.
In many cases those people aren’t wrong that the government was lying to them. It was just not the lie that they thought the government was [telling]. But there is a much straighter line from UFO conspiracies to January 6 than I think most Americans would realize.
Could it have been different? Could the military or NASA or CIA have done more to assuage that paranoia? Or is that just part of the American character?
There’s certainly an argument that some part of this is the American character. But there’s also a missed opportunity that runs right up to the present day, to this summer’s UFO hearings on Capitol Hill. The government has still, after 75 years, never put together a real effort to figure out what these UFO sightings actually are. That, to me, was a real puzzle. Yes, some chunk of the sightings is always going to be people being confused, and some chunk is always going to be people looking at Venus. But every single time that anyone has begun to look at this seriously, you end up with some chunks of sightings that are not explainable by known science, astronomy or aviation...
By the way, that’s not me saying that I think the final answer is aliens visiting from Alpha Centauri. There are numerous fascinating answers — astronomically, atmospherically, meteorologically, within the basic rules of physics — that stop short of an alien visiting planet Earth.
One other thread of this story is how tenuous those efforts to get that deep understanding are. Carl Sagan was a powerful advocate in the ‘70s, and NASA benefited from the questions that he was asking. But such efforts seemed to be contingent on one or two lawmakers deciding that it wasn’t worth spending the money on.
That’s part of what was shocking, looking back on this. You’re talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars, or a couple of million dollars. That’s the windshield budget for the U.S. Army for the month of May.
...I think that part of the challenge of the public conversation is that people think that the only answer could be aliens. Whereas when you get into the literature, it’s clear that a meaningful chunk of it — if not the majority of it — is adversarial technology being tested against the United States.
One of the things we know is that the Pentagon has uncovered a heretofore unknown Chinese drone that comes out of the water and transitions to flight. That’s a pretty significant understanding of a new adversary capability that has grown directly out of the renewed serious attention since 2017. It’s not that people are not still reporting UFO sightings or alien abductions. But I don’t think that there is as serious a conversation about those sorts of layman’s interactions with this phenomenon.
If you are looking at this on an Android phone, the URL of that LA Times link should copied and posted in Incognito mode because the article comes unreadably pre-paywalled. If you have an Iphone, you are SOL as far as I know. Which is why I posted this long excerpt so as to save you the bother
posted by y2karl at 10:38 AM on November 17, 2023
And from the original link:
What sort of evidence would it take to make you a true believer?posted by y2karl at 11:50 AM on November 17, 2023
One of the things that Hollywood and pop culture get wrong are the sort of scenarios where aliens present themselves to us for the first time, and it’s something highly dramatic, like where the alien spacecraft hovers over the White House and destroys it. The vastly more likely scenario is that we are going to first encounter the interstellar equivalent of an empty plastic bag from another civilization blowing through our solar system. We probably vastly overestimate how much any alien civilization anywhere would care about us. We’re a pretty mediocre society on a pretty average planet, on a pretty average star in the middle of what we think is an average galaxy. The chances that even incredibly advanced civilizations elsewhere in the universe have any idea that we exist or would care about us are probably laughable.
And who knows how much longer we’ll be around for them to find us.
Which, by the way, is not unrelated to this larger subject. There could have been intelligent civilizations that predated us, that we have missed by hundreds of millions or billions of years, and they might still have various crafts or probes or literal space trash floating around out there.
Do you think we’ll find a piece of that trash in our lifetime?
I hope so. It’s impossible to study this and not be overwhelmed with the hope and optimism of the scientists who work on the subject. I can’t think of anything that would transform our understanding of ourselves and our place in the universe more than answering the question, are we alone?
We’re a pretty mediocre society on a pretty average planet, on a pretty average star in the middle of what we think is an average galaxy.
Oh, thank the Universe we aren't in the middle of the galaxy! We're out on the unfashionable end of the western arm of our spiral galaxy.
posted by hippybear at 12:19 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, thank the Universe we aren't in the middle of the galaxy! We're out on the unfashionable end of the western arm of our spiral galaxy.
posted by hippybear at 12:19 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Reggie Watts [on the Late Late Show with James Corden] to former President Barrack Obama:
What's w/ Dem Aliens?
posted by y2karl at 1:02 PM on November 17, 2023
What's w/ Dem Aliens?
posted by y2karl at 1:02 PM on November 17, 2023
I don’t think most serious people think our adversaries have developed some next gen secret propulsion system that defies known physics of flight. I think that there is a genuine concern that the sensors we rely on for air superiority are vulnerable to either showing pilots and air defense crews something that isn’t there or missing small drones, balloons, etc stuff that could pose a risk to our ability to control the airspace over a battle field. Since our entire military is built around combined arms and air superiority that’s a serious concern. If pilots aren’t reporting the glitches they won’t get fixed.
posted by interogative mood at 1:20 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 1:20 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
that isn’t there or missing small drones, balloons, etc
No doubt there are glitches and anomalies and software failures in most air defense and fighter aircraft. fighter aircraft don't look for small drones or balloons, that would be for a myriad of other air defense systems.
believe it's kind of wry what Brennan is saying that there are images that defy explanation and it's quite right that if you run a 16 to 20 billion dollar intelligence outfit, your going to get an answer by the end of the day. big thing is a lot of these projects and aircraft and systems are classified. just like that balloon thing at Roswell going back way back 1947. what interesting about 1947 to 1948 is that America had nuclear superiority over the entire world, the so-called golden age of the cold war.
I personally blame Orson Welles.
posted by clavdivs at 3:24 PM on November 17, 2023
No doubt there are glitches and anomalies and software failures in most air defense and fighter aircraft. fighter aircraft don't look for small drones or balloons, that would be for a myriad of other air defense systems.
believe it's kind of wry what Brennan is saying that there are images that defy explanation and it's quite right that if you run a 16 to 20 billion dollar intelligence outfit, your going to get an answer by the end of the day. big thing is a lot of these projects and aircraft and systems are classified. just like that balloon thing at Roswell going back way back 1947. what interesting about 1947 to 1948 is that America had nuclear superiority over the entire world, the so-called golden age of the cold war.
I personally blame Orson Welles.
posted by clavdivs at 3:24 PM on November 17, 2023
I don’t think most serious people think our adversaries have developed some next gen secret propulsion system that defies known physics of flight.
Barack Obama and Garrett Graff, among others, aside that is. And, gee, you'd think someone in the Navy would have had their expensive equipment checked. But no, totally unpossible says you. Not Aliens, Faulty equipment. Nothing to see here. Graff, who is Hell on wheels researching the documentary evidence of the topic of any book he writes, noted this among other things in his interview linked above:
posted by y2karl at 3:28 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Barack Obama and Garrett Graff, among others, aside that is. And, gee, you'd think someone in the Navy would have had their expensive equipment checked. But no, totally unpossible says you. Not Aliens, Faulty equipment. Nothing to see here. Graff, who is Hell on wheels researching the documentary evidence of the topic of any book he writes, noted this among other things in his interview linked above:
Graves [Tape]: During a training mission in Warning Area Whiskey 72, 10 miles off the coast of Virginia Beach, two F-18 Super Hornets were split by a UAP.So, Garrett Graff, former President Barack Obama and these clueless poorly trained Navy pilots who noped out on a dark gray or black cube inside of a clear sphere that came within 50 feet of the lead plane are seriously misinformed and totally not credible reporters. All were taken in by false reports, lens flare, the planet Venus and clown car fantasies. Because everybody knows most serious people think otherwise. As if.
The object, described as a dark gray or black cube inside of a clear sphere, came within 50 feet of the lead aircraft and was estimated to be 5 to 15 feet in diameter. The mission commander terminated the flight immediately and returned to base. Our squadron submitted a safety report, but there was no official acknowledgement of the incident and no further mechanism to report the sightings.
Soon, these encounters became so frequent that aircrew would discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular preflight briefs.
posted by y2karl at 3:28 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
We probably vastly overestimate how much any alien civilization anywhere would care about us. We’re a pretty mediocre society on a pretty average planet, on a pretty average star in the middle of what we think is an average galaxy. The chances that even incredibly advanced civilizations elsewhere in the universe have any idea that we exist or would care about us are probably laughable.
Indeed. For at least two reasons:
1. There is nothing on earth that cannot be readily found elsewhere in the universe, often in far greater abundance, and much more easily collected.
Besides life itself, far as we know.
2. We are not a threat to any civilisation that can routinely do interstellar travel. At the very least we are confined to the local neighbourhood for the considerably foreseeable future, and maybe forever.
They might be keeping an eye on us, but we are currently no threat to them.
posted by Pouteria at 4:44 PM on November 17, 2023
Indeed. For at least two reasons:
1. There is nothing on earth that cannot be readily found elsewhere in the universe, often in far greater abundance, and much more easily collected.
Besides life itself, far as we know.
2. We are not a threat to any civilisation that can routinely do interstellar travel. At the very least we are confined to the local neighbourhood for the considerably foreseeable future, and maybe forever.
They might be keeping an eye on us, but we are currently no threat to them.
posted by Pouteria at 4:44 PM on November 17, 2023
Pouteria, this is exactly why my crackpot theory for this is "fairies from some alternate reality alongside ours, periodically slipping in and pranking us."
This was basically the interpretation in the Mothman Prophecies (the book) of paranormal stuff
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:49 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
This was basically the interpretation in the Mothman Prophecies (the book) of paranormal stuff
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:49 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
My guess is this. Chicxulub impact winter and Deccan flat eruptions, for example, and their related mass extinctions aside, the Earth's atmosphere has been glowing with life signs to alien astronomers for eons. Space probes may have been sent, may have not. But aliens themselves? It seems hardly likely for reasons of time and expense. Metaversal apportation aside, that is.
posted by y2karl at 6:15 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 6:15 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Barrack Obama and Garrett Graff, among others, aside that is
Garrett Graff and Barack Obama are not experts in cameras, video processing and other sensor systems. They have to rely on what they’ve been told. When Obama was President the US was just getting started in building the capabilities to process these reports. Since then the military has to clean house and replace the original group working on this with actual scientists because there were too many true believers. The original videos that were released under Obama were quickly debunked/explained by folks like Mick West.
UAP reports are now analyzed by AARO. The head of AARO has given sworn testimony in Congress that they have not found any evidence of aliens or UAPs that defy physics.
Graves has made all kinds of extraordinary claims over the years. We’re still waiting for proof.
The videos that have been made public so far seem to have a number of plausible explanations as discussed in previous threads on this topic. The unexplained nature of them seems to come from the inability based on the data alone to differentiate between the plausible explanations.
posted by interogative mood at 8:16 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Garrett Graff and Barack Obama are not experts in cameras, video processing and other sensor systems. They have to rely on what they’ve been told. When Obama was President the US was just getting started in building the capabilities to process these reports. Since then the military has to clean house and replace the original group working on this with actual scientists because there were too many true believers. The original videos that were released under Obama were quickly debunked/explained by folks like Mick West.
UAP reports are now analyzed by AARO. The head of AARO has given sworn testimony in Congress that they have not found any evidence of aliens or UAPs that defy physics.
Graves has made all kinds of extraordinary claims over the years. We’re still waiting for proof.
The videos that have been made public so far seem to have a number of plausible explanations as discussed in previous threads on this topic. The unexplained nature of them seems to come from the inability based on the data alone to differentiate between the plausible explanations.
posted by interogative mood at 8:16 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Graves has made all kinds of extraordinary claims over the years. We’re still waiting for proof.
Over what years?
posted by y2karl at 8:32 PM on November 17, 2023
Over what years?
posted by y2karl at 8:32 PM on November 17, 2023
Graves has been making claims about UAP’s since 2019 as reported in this 2019 NYTimes article.
At the hearing in front of Congress this past fall Graves claimed that in 2003 Boeing engineers at Vandenberg Air Force Base saw a 100 foot wide square object floating over a test site that and said he was in contact with an eye witness of the event. Eventually he produced one witness on a podcast that was a retired security guard who said they were told about the incident, not an eyewitness. When pressed for details they offered very little.
posted by interogative mood at 9:58 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
At the hearing in front of Congress this past fall Graves claimed that in 2003 Boeing engineers at Vandenberg Air Force Base saw a 100 foot wide square object floating over a test site that and said he was in contact with an eye witness of the event. Eventually he produced one witness on a podcast that was a retired security guard who said they were told about the incident, not an eyewitness. When pressed for details they offered very little.
posted by interogative mood at 9:58 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Fixed misspelling of "Barack" in y2karl comment, by request
posted by taz (staff) at 11:52 PM on November 17, 2023
posted by taz (staff) at 11:52 PM on November 17, 2023
UAP reports are now analyzed by AARO. The head of AARO has given sworn testimony in Congress that they have not found any evidence of aliens or UAPs that defy physics.
Well, yes on no aliens but as to defying physics, it is somewhat more complex.
It's like true believers and true unbelievers are out in force.
posted by y2karl at 2:19 AM on November 20, 2023
Well, yes on no aliens but as to defying physics, it is somewhat more complex.
Analysis of military sightings are conducted by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence in conjunction with a newly created Pentagon bureau known as AARO, short for the cryptically named All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office.Pentagon chief and Avi Loeb analyze physics of 'highly maneuverable' UFOs
Their first report to Congress in June 2021 examined 144 sightings by U.S. military aviators dating to 2004.
That study attributed one incident to a large, deflating balloon but found the rest were beyond the government's ability to explain without further analysis.
A report from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence issued last month cited 366 additional sightings, mostly things like balloons, drones, birds or airborne clutter. But 171 remained officially unexplained.
"Some of these uncharacterized UAP appear to have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance capabilities, and require further analysis," the office said in the report.
It's like true believers and true unbelievers are out in force.
posted by y2karl at 2:19 AM on November 20, 2023
I have been afraid to fly my hobby balloons since the whole China thing.
So now, you re saying I will be reported to Congress?
Look, it s just me. I'm flying Balloons for photography. Please don't shoot me. I am just taking pictures. This used to be fun.
posted by eustatic at 8:46 AM on November 21, 2023
So now, you re saying I will be reported to Congress?
Look, it s just me. I'm flying Balloons for photography. Please don't shoot me. I am just taking pictures. This used to be fun.
posted by eustatic at 8:46 AM on November 21, 2023
Full Incontrovertible Disclosure is coming, on a certain very specifically-planned timetable.
Pieces on the Chessboard are being moved into place.
Obfuscation helps the Players in control of this process, so of course things look easy to write off as "fake" at this point. Plausible deniability is one of their most powerful, effective, and well-worn tools.
It will be proof in the form of a Signal, not atoms, that kicks it off.
posted by cats are weird at 5:46 PM on December 9, 2023
Pieces on the Chessboard are being moved into place.
Obfuscation helps the Players in control of this process, so of course things look easy to write off as "fake" at this point. Plausible deniability is one of their most powerful, effective, and well-worn tools.
It will be proof in the form of a Signal, not atoms, that kicks it off.
posted by cats are weird at 5:46 PM on December 9, 2023
For all the 'people/governments can't keep a secret' - this isn't true. What was the deal with 5 nukes instead of 6 being loaded on an airplane going to the middle east, the news helicopter that got video of something leaving the ocean that looks like a missile, and before the Bush the lesser administration the MV Iran Deyanat and the Franklin Affair. These things got announced and that seems to be where it ended.
Then there are things never officially explained but people have made claims what happened. The conventional gas pipeline explosion in the Soviet Union, the American bombing of the Chinese Embassy during the Serbian conflict, and today Peter Zeihan made the claim the Chinese taking out of their own satellite in space had a US response of the US taking out a number of older US satellites. Things are observed and later on some unofficial party offers up additional information. This is where the UAP issue is at.
While things like the space force defending Mars and the oort cloud along with the Soviet Union report of a flash of light turning soldiers to stone exist (where is the proof as both of those should have proof) there is reports from people ranging from the start of the train era with claiming airships were being seen, the Canadian wilderness trapper, Barney/Betty hill, foo fighters there is also claims of hunks of metal from the beach with almost 100% monoatomic metal (proof?), claims of things turning on/off various nuclear systems, the 1970's Iranian tomcats, some reports that got out of Russia just after the collapse, the south american contact noting a nasty stench and claiming a man who touched a being died rather quickly of unknown pathogens (proof?) and the African schoolyard incident. Oh and whatever happened in Arizona which had the governor
Moving onto the reports of various recovered craft there seems someone has physical proof. Then there is the 'ufo patents' with the reporting on how the patent office didn't want to and the navy visited and after that - patent granted.
So to claim it is all a hoax - where is the 'debunking' of the situation beyond 'show the proof' in a world where the US government passes a law to release the information about the death of Kennedy and it wasn't done by the present guy in charge AND by the last clown who claimed he was gonna challenge the deep state. That same clown could have strong armed the Navy over the fusion reactor patent and did a demo while claiming a new era of prosperity based on electricity too cheap to meter.
There are other adults in the room and we can handle the truth. Lets have it.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:45 PM on December 13, 2023
Then there are things never officially explained but people have made claims what happened. The conventional gas pipeline explosion in the Soviet Union, the American bombing of the Chinese Embassy during the Serbian conflict, and today Peter Zeihan made the claim the Chinese taking out of their own satellite in space had a US response of the US taking out a number of older US satellites. Things are observed and later on some unofficial party offers up additional information. This is where the UAP issue is at.
While things like the space force defending Mars and the oort cloud along with the Soviet Union report of a flash of light turning soldiers to stone exist (where is the proof as both of those should have proof) there is reports from people ranging from the start of the train era with claiming airships were being seen, the Canadian wilderness trapper, Barney/Betty hill, foo fighters there is also claims of hunks of metal from the beach with almost 100% monoatomic metal (proof?), claims of things turning on/off various nuclear systems, the 1970's Iranian tomcats, some reports that got out of Russia just after the collapse, the south american contact noting a nasty stench and claiming a man who touched a being died rather quickly of unknown pathogens (proof?) and the African schoolyard incident. Oh and whatever happened in Arizona which had the governor
Moving onto the reports of various recovered craft there seems someone has physical proof. Then there is the 'ufo patents' with the reporting on how the patent office didn't want to and the navy visited and after that - patent granted.
So to claim it is all a hoax - where is the 'debunking' of the situation beyond 'show the proof' in a world where the US government passes a law to release the information about the death of Kennedy and it wasn't done by the present guy in charge AND by the last clown who claimed he was gonna challenge the deep state. That same clown could have strong armed the Navy over the fusion reactor patent and did a demo while claiming a new era of prosperity based on electricity too cheap to meter.
There are other adults in the room and we can handle the truth. Lets have it.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:45 PM on December 13, 2023
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