Apostrophes behaving badly
November 17, 2023 7:51 AM Subscribe
According to The Guardian's Steven Morris, "It began with a grumble from a retired teacher passionate about punctuation. He was dismayed to spot that an apostrophe had vanished from the road sign of a tree-lined lane in the Hampshire village of Twyford. The complaint led to intricate discussions at the local city council, during which the sometimes erratic punctuation of Jane Austen, the area’s most famous writer, was cited. But after a 12-month battle, the status quo ante was restored and an apostrophe has been added back in to the sign for St Mary’s Terrace, to the delight not only of villagers but to a growing number of enthusiasts battling against the loss of the punctuation mark across the UK."
The late founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society, which was shut down in December 2019 (previously), would have been thrilled with this victory.
As Washington Post columnist John Kelly notes, "There’re no apostrophes in spoken English. But written English depends on ’em. Here’s an example that John Richards, the society’s late founder, was fond of, something you might see on a sign outside an apartment building: 'Residents’ refuse to be placed in trash cans.' ” (Archive link.)
Happily, the Apostrophe Protection Society has been relaunched. The Apostrophe Appreciation Society, a Facebook group seemingly based in the UK, hasn't been active for a few years but has a nice gallery of signage with badly behaved apostrophes. Londonist also has a gallery of London street signs with dodgy or inconsistent punctuation. Enjoy!
The late founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society, which was shut down in December 2019 (previously), would have been thrilled with this victory.
As Washington Post columnist John Kelly notes, "There’re no apostrophes in spoken English. But written English depends on ’em. Here’s an example that John Richards, the society’s late founder, was fond of, something you might see on a sign outside an apartment building: 'Residents’ refuse to be placed in trash cans.' ” (Archive link.)
Happily, the Apostrophe Protection Society has been relaunched. The Apostrophe Appreciation Society, a Facebook group seemingly based in the UK, hasn't been active for a few years but has a nice gallery of signage with badly behaved apostrophes. Londonist also has a gallery of London street signs with dodgy or inconsistent punctuation. Enjoy!
They should make sure never to emigrate to Australia.
posted by rory at 8:07 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rory at 8:07 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Here’s an example that John Richards, the society’s late founder, was fond of, something you might see on a sign outside an apartment building: 'Residents’ refuse to be placed in trash cans.' ”
That sounds wrong to my ears. Why would a British person say 'trash cans' instead of 'bins'?
posted by vacapinta at 8:08 AM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
That sounds wrong to my ears. Why would a British person say 'trash cans' instead of 'bins'?
posted by vacapinta at 8:08 AM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
That sounds wrong to my ears. Why would a British person say 'trash cans' instead of 'bins'?
Absolutely. It should read "Residents' refuse should kindly be placed in the bins provided" and have "Get Tae Fuck" scrawled at the end.
posted by rory at 8:13 AM on November 17, 2023 [30 favorites]
Absolutely. It should read "Residents' refuse should kindly be placed in the bins provided" and have "Get Tae Fuck" scrawled at the end.
posted by rory at 8:13 AM on November 17, 2023 [30 favorites]
Wait, so somehow we've gone from overuse via greengrocier's apostrophies to apostrophies vanishing from places they actually belong?
How'd that happen?
posted by sotonohito at 8:14 AM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
How'd that happen?
posted by sotonohito at 8:14 AM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
The plural of Burger King is Burger Kings! No apostrophe please!And shouldn't that be Burgers King?
posted by sotonohito at 8:17 AM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Absolutely. It should read "Residents' refuse should kindly be placed in the bins provided" and have "Get Tae Fuck" scrawled at the end.
But that completely obliterates the joke in the original.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:21 AM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
But that completely obliterates the joke in the original.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:21 AM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
I blame texting for this. (And for all else wrong with society.)
posted by pracowity at 8:22 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 8:22 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Y'all can eulogize the apostrophe all you want, but my question is: where's the period after St in St. Mary?! The first sign in the picture has it, as is right and proper. Why did the Guardian leave it out?
posted by mittens at 8:26 AM on November 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by mittens at 8:26 AM on November 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
But that completely obliterates the joke in the original.
Gasp!
Nobody apart from the founder of an Apostrophe Protection Society would really write "residents' refuse" or "residents refuse" on that sign, though. Although I may be biased by years of reading the sign in the loos across from my office that says "Please put the paper towels in the bin, not down the toilet. Thank you!"
The first sign in the picture has it, as is right and proper. Why did the Guardian leave it out?
In UK style, a full stop indicates the omission of the end of a word; if only the middle is omitted, no full stop. So Saint = St but Captain = Capt. (and Street = St., which is handy if you're writing "St Andrew's St.").
posted by rory at 8:36 AM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Gasp!
Nobody apart from the founder of an Apostrophe Protection Society would really write "residents' refuse" or "residents refuse" on that sign, though. Although I may be biased by years of reading the sign in the loos across from my office that says "Please put the paper towels in the bin, not down the toilet. Thank you!"
The first sign in the picture has it, as is right and proper. Why did the Guardian leave it out?
In UK style, a full stop indicates the omission of the end of a word; if only the middle is omitted, no full stop. So Saint = St but Captain = Capt. (and Street = St., which is handy if you're writing "St Andrew's St.").
posted by rory at 8:36 AM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
> And shouldn't that be Burgers King?
In Europe, it's Burgers Royale.
posted by sudasana at 8:47 AM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
In Europe, it's Burgers Royale.
posted by sudasana at 8:47 AM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
For the record, here is how John Richards was quoted in the Slate article where the quote originated:
“The apostrophe plays a vital part in written English,” Richards says. “Just take the sign outside a block of flats: Residents’ refuse to be placed in bins. Remove the apostrophe and you see a very different notice.”
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:47 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
“The apostrophe plays a vital part in written English,” Richards says. “Just take the sign outside a block of flats: Residents’ refuse to be placed in bins. Remove the apostrophe and you see a very different notice.”
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:47 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Getting rid of apostrophes from street names is a form of cultural vandalism
it's giving tradcon
posted by uncleozzy at 8:49 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
it's giving tradcon
posted by uncleozzy at 8:49 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Burgers King
Burger KingsTrademarks should always be treated as adjectives, never as nouns. "There are two Burger King restaurants within a mile of here."
posted by Hatashran at 8:54 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
No, you don't need to call Burger King a restaurant.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:12 AM on November 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:12 AM on November 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
I grew up near the only British town which cannot be spelt correctly without its exclamation mark.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:22 AM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 9:22 AM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
No, you don't need to call Burger King a restaurant.
If this is a fast food outlet, where's the fast food inlet?
posted by clawsoon at 9:23 AM on November 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
If this is a fast food outlet, where's the fast food inlet?
posted by clawsoon at 9:23 AM on November 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
Y'all can eulogize the apostrophe all you want, but my question is: where's the period after St in St. Mary?!
Gray admitted that some people were now complaining that there shouldn’t be a full stop after the “St” in “St. Mary’s”. “I’m not getting involved in that - it’s too controversial.”posted by kirkaracha at 9:24 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I used to live in an apartment building in which the management office put up all sorts of creatively punctuated notices in the elevator.
Lot's of apostrophes for plural noun's.
I always assumed it was a sign of unhappy memories of language arts classes as a kid. The presence of an "s" triggers a spiral of self-doubt: "Wait, is this where I always messed up on the grammar tests in Mr. Martin's class? I should just put an apostrophe to be careful. Take that Mr. Martin!"
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:39 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lot's of apostrophes for plural noun's.
I always assumed it was a sign of unhappy memories of language arts classes as a kid. The presence of an "s" triggers a spiral of self-doubt: "Wait, is this where I always messed up on the grammar tests in Mr. Martin's class? I should just put an apostrophe to be careful. Take that Mr. Martin!"
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:39 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
All I know is that the apostrophe in my name causes havoc when entering info online...
posted by Czjewel at 9:47 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 9:47 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
In Europe, it's Burgers Royale.
Rois Royaux?
If this is a fast food outlet, where's the fast food inlet?
That would be the customers' fry holes.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:12 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Rois Royaux?
If this is a fast food outlet, where's the fast food inlet?
That would be the customers' fry holes.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:12 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do have to regularly remind myself that there are no possessive pronouns that use apostrophes. Which is why it is not it's, because it isn't hi's or her's or your's.
There is y'alls, but that's a different apostrophe use.
posted by hippybear at 10:13 AM on November 17, 2023
There is y'alls, but that's a different apostrophe use.
posted by hippybear at 10:13 AM on November 17, 2023
Lot's of apostrophes for plural noun's.
I have a coworker who uses quote marks for what I think is supposed to be emphasis but ends up being sort of the opposite: The following steps "must" be performed.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:16 AM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
I have a coworker who uses quote marks for what I think is supposed to be emphasis but ends up being sort of the opposite: The following steps "must" be performed.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:16 AM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
I had a professor once who wrote on my paper
"have you declared a moratorium on the apostrophe"
posted by clavdivs at 10:29 AM on November 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
"have you declared a moratorium on the apostrophe"
posted by clavdivs at 10:29 AM on November 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
I've visited many Mens rooms.
Not sure what a Mens is, but I assume it's Latin.
posted by MtDewd at 10:29 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not sure what a Mens is, but I assume it's Latin.
posted by MtDewd at 10:29 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
“I have a coworker who uses quote marks for what I think is supposed to be emphasis but ends up being sort of the opposite: The following steps 'must' be performed.”
“Using Air Quotes wrong your entire life”
For most of my life, I blissfully believed that all the quotation marks on signs and company tag lines and so forth all were intended to imply that someone, somewhere, had said that.
Then friends explained to me that often it's intended to be emphasis and something in me died.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:37 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
“Using Air Quotes wrong your entire life”
For most of my life, I blissfully believed that all the quotation marks on signs and company tag lines and so forth all were intended to imply that someone, somewhere, had said that.
Then friends explained to me that often it's intended to be emphasis and something in me died.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:37 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
No, it’s Burger Kings, not Burgers King because of the order and type of elements. In Attorney General, the position is attorney, modified by the descriptor general. One attorney general, six attorneys general. In Burger King, the position is king, modified by descriptor burger. One Burger King, six burger kings.
posted by toodleydoodley at 10:41 AM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 10:41 AM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
I have seen the light, and now fully support the conventions used by da share z0ne. A new sign must be made with the correct punctuation: St Mary”s Terrace.
posted by scruss at 10:43 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by scruss at 10:43 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Punctuation is fun (and proper punctuation should be encouraged).
I personally get annoyed when I see people faking smart quotes (`like this') in modern typographically-complete systems, when they could instead just do it correctly (‘like this’) if they only knew how. Or, for the love of Pete, just use a pair of straight quotes ('like so'), because that's preferable to the mismatched look achieved through abuse of the backtick. If you find yourself doing this, you ought to realize that you're making a grave (accent) mistake.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:46 AM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
I personally get annoyed when I see people faking smart quotes (`like this') in modern typographically-complete systems, when they could instead just do it correctly (‘like this’) if they only knew how. Or, for the love of Pete, just use a pair of straight quotes ('like so'), because that's preferable to the mismatched look achieved through abuse of the backtick. If you find yourself doing this, you ought to realize that you're making a grave (accent) mistake.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:46 AM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
Y'all're jus' smug prescriptivist's. T'is 's 'ow it ain't be and ought's be. B'ah. List'n yourself's.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:07 AM on November 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:07 AM on November 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
You can have “which of all y’all’s’ cars are in the lot,” which begins to look like it’s from a fantasy novel from the 80s….
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:19 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:19 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Re. Y'all can eulogize the apostrophe all you want, but my question is: where's the period after St in St. Mary?! The first sign in the picture has it, as is right and proper. Why did the Guardian leave it out?
The Guardian is adhering to its own style guide.
posted by NailsTheCat at 11:28 AM on November 17, 2023
The Guardian is adhering to its own style guide.
posted by NailsTheCat at 11:28 AM on November 17, 2023
No, you don't need to call Burger King a restaurant.
Just call the Burgers Kings, "your majesties."
posted by otherchaz at 11:36 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just call the Burgers Kings, "your majesties."
posted by otherchaz at 11:36 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
What never ceases to baffle me with the "turning a plural into a possessive" thing, is the lack of consistency, even within the same sentence or list. I will often see things like:
Apples
Carrot's
Onions
Tomato's
Potatoes
Red Potatoe's
Reese's Piece's
Peaches
posted by Thorzdad at 11:45 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Apples
Carrot's
Onions
Tomato's
Potatoes
Red Potatoe's
Reese's Piece's
Peaches
posted by Thorzdad at 11:45 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Apostrophes are shibboleths. The main function of an apostrophe is to make smug assholes feel superior. I can't stand them.
The irony here is that these punctuation fascists are bucking all convention by insisting on St. Mary's Terrace. The main convention is that place names shouldn't have apostrophes. It's a newish convention, maybe, but well established. But also, St. Mary doesn't own that terrace. Or maybe I'm mistaken, and there's some local potentate named "St. Mary," and it really is their terrace. In any case it doesn't sound like that is relevant information when all I want to do is address a letter. Is the real street name just "Terrace" and everyone is supposed to know about a local landmark that the "Terrace" is near? Maybe it's meant to be interpretated as elision, and the real road name is "St. Mary is Terrace."
The article seems to suggest that the reason for the apostrophe is that "St. Mary's" is meant to be plural, which is a fun colloquial misunderstanding that I guess I can get behind, but then I'm confused by why all these jack-booted apostrophe-lickers are suddenly on my side?
No apostrophes, no masters.
posted by surlyben at 11:46 AM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
The irony here is that these punctuation fascists are bucking all convention by insisting on St. Mary's Terrace. The main convention is that place names shouldn't have apostrophes. It's a newish convention, maybe, but well established. But also, St. Mary doesn't own that terrace. Or maybe I'm mistaken, and there's some local potentate named "St. Mary," and it really is their terrace. In any case it doesn't sound like that is relevant information when all I want to do is address a letter. Is the real street name just "Terrace" and everyone is supposed to know about a local landmark that the "Terrace" is near? Maybe it's meant to be interpretated as elision, and the real road name is "St. Mary is Terrace."
The article seems to suggest that the reason for the apostrophe is that "St. Mary's" is meant to be plural, which is a fun colloquial misunderstanding that I guess I can get behind, but then I'm confused by why all these jack-booted apostrophe-lickers are suddenly on my side?
No apostrophes, no masters.
posted by surlyben at 11:46 AM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
The main function of an apostrophe is to make smug assholes feel superior. I can't stand them.
Or maybe I'm mistaken,
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 12:13 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Or maybe I'm mistaken,
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 12:13 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
I personally get annoyed when I see people faking smart quotes (`like this') in modern typographically-complete systems, when they could instead just do it correctly (‘like this’) if they only knew how.
Shouldn't it be double quotes, “like this”? Unless you're quoting someone doing air quotes, like this: caution live frogs said “I personally get annoyed when I see people faking smart quotes (‘like this’).”
posted by kirkaracha at 12:26 PM on November 17, 2023
Shouldn't it be double quotes, “like this”? Unless you're quoting someone doing air quotes, like this: caution live frogs said “I personally get annoyed when I see people faking smart quotes (‘like this’).”
posted by kirkaracha at 12:26 PM on November 17, 2023
I blame texting for this. (And for all else wrong with society.)
Nonsense. The true root of all evil is autocorrect.
posted by y2karl at 12:29 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Nonsense. The true root of all evil is autocorrect.
posted by y2karl at 12:29 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
→
It”s a sign that they're an old TeX user. If it”s good enough for Donald Knuth, it”s good enough for everyone.
posted by scruss at 12:44 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I personally get annoyed when I see people faking smart quotes (`like this') in modern typographically-complete systems
It”s a sign that they're an old TeX user. If it”s good enough for Donald Knuth, it”s good enough for everyone.
posted by scruss at 12:44 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Reese's Piece's
Peaches
Now I want to open a peach farm called "Reach's Grove", and sell "Reach's Peaches".
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:45 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Peaches
Now I want to open a peach farm called "Reach's Grove", and sell "Reach's Peaches".
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:45 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
if they only knew how
...now I worry I'm using quotes wrong. I've only got two on my keyboard, ' and "...anything fancier, and it's the computer itself doing them.
posted by mittens at 12:49 PM on November 17, 2023
...now I worry I'm using quotes wrong. I've only got two on my keyboard, ' and "...anything fancier, and it's the computer itself doing them.
posted by mittens at 12:49 PM on November 17, 2023
There's a playground near us called "St. Mary's". The kids call it "Street Mary's".
Punctuation doesn't fix everything.
posted by phooky at 12:50 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Punctuation doesn't fix everything.
posted by phooky at 12:50 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, I AM a smug asshole. But I don't think that's why I use apostrophes.
posted by sotonohito at 1:23 PM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 1:23 PM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
There was a popular grammar book from the 90s, "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" by Lynne Truss. As you can tell by the title, much of it concerned use of the Oxford comma, but also about proper apostrophe use. So much so that in the back of the book were apostrophe stickers so that the reader could engage in some corrective vandalism upon finding words with missing apostrophes out in the wild.
posted by zardoz at 1:26 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 1:26 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm worried it might be
Reach's's Peaches
Though I suppose
Reach's Grove's Peaches
Is the right way to do it.
posted by maxwelton at 1:34 PM on November 17, 2023
Reach's's Peaches
Though I suppose
Reach's Grove's Peaches
Is the right way to do it.
posted by maxwelton at 1:34 PM on November 17, 2023
Metafilter: jack-booted apostrophe-lickers
posted by clawsoon at 1:38 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:38 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Following the provided example, it should be "Reech's Peaches".
You do realize this would make you move out to the country, and eat a lot of peaches....
posted by hippybear at 1:39 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
You do realize this would make you move out to the country, and eat a lot of peaches....
posted by hippybear at 1:39 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
y'all'ven't even seen my final form
posted by jermsplan at 1:45 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jermsplan at 1:45 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm worried it might be
Reach's's Peaches
Not at all, because the Reach family would possess both the grove and its peaches.
You do realize this would make you move out to the country, and eat a lot of peaches....
Quel dommage!
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:48 PM on November 17, 2023
Reach's's Peaches
Not at all, because the Reach family would possess both the grove and its peaches.
You do realize this would make you move out to the country, and eat a lot of peaches....
Quel dommage!
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:48 PM on November 17, 2023
Id support getting rid of apostrophes completely. Itd be weird at first but wed all get used to it soon enough. If we can cope with ‘lead’ and ‘lead’ being spelled the same, Im sure we can cope with ‘hell’ and ‘hell’ as well.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:50 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:50 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Following the provided example, it should be "Reech's Peaches".
Unless your greengrocer accidentally makes that common error we call "lovecrafting" and spells it "R'eeches P'eaches."
posted by mittens at 1:56 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unless your greengrocer accidentally makes that common error we call "lovecrafting" and spells it "R'eeches P'eaches."
posted by mittens at 1:56 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I guess I always thought that the UK had given up on apostrophes. I remember visiting and seeing dozens of streets and businesses where they had obviously just stopped using an apostrophe. Franklins = a bar owned by Franklin. Etc. I'm shocked to see that there's controversy over this.
posted by goatdog at 2:02 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by goatdog at 2:02 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Apostrophe. Ha! Bloody thing. Especially when messaging, I tend to hit the enter key when my pinkie goes after the apostrophe.
posted by Goofyy at 2:21 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Goofyy at 2:21 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
As best I can tell, Swedish doesn’t use apostrophes. It still throws me off a bit when I read a possessive in Swedish. Must investigate to make sure I’m not lying. Do many languages use apostrophes, or is that mostly an English thing?
posted by Bella Donna at 2:30 PM on November 17, 2023
posted by Bella Donna at 2:30 PM on November 17, 2023
eat a lot of peaches
At which point it would be necessary to try and find Jesus' on our own.
But even when we found them, how would we know the peaches were Jesus'?
/deepthoughts
posted by Not A Thing at 2:34 PM on November 17, 2023
At which point it would be necessary to try and find Jesus' on our own.
But even when we found them, how would we know the peaches were Jesus'?
/deepthoughts
posted by Not A Thing at 2:34 PM on November 17, 2023
“Just take the sign outside a block of flats: Residents’ refuse to be placed in bins. Remove the apostrophe and you see a very different notice.”
That's a cooked up example though. It's like how people promote the Oxford comma by inventing a situation where the lack of a comma makes the sentence ambiguous, when nine times out of ten it's fine.
Apostrophes in internet speak have always makeshift things. The character that shares a key with tilde is called a `backtick,` and it shouldn't be used as an apostrophe, but that's mostly because it looks awkward. “Normal” smart quotes, of the type Word is always pushing on me, are annoying to enter into comment forms, and cause hard-to-find problems if pasted into code or onto command lines.
If you really want to annoy people (and who doesn't?), use ^carets,^ or even *asterisks,* as quotation marks. (This comment brought to you by the society for putting commas inside quotation marks whatever the form they take.)
posted by JHarris at 2:58 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's a cooked up example though. It's like how people promote the Oxford comma by inventing a situation where the lack of a comma makes the sentence ambiguous, when nine times out of ten it's fine.
Apostrophes in internet speak have always makeshift things. The character that shares a key with tilde is called a `backtick,` and it shouldn't be used as an apostrophe, but that's mostly because it looks awkward. “Normal” smart quotes, of the type Word is always pushing on me, are annoying to enter into comment forms, and cause hard-to-find problems if pasted into code or onto command lines.
If you really want to annoy people (and who doesn't?), use ^carets,^ or even *asterisks,* as quotation marks. (This comment brought to you by the society for putting commas inside quotation marks whatever the form they take.)
posted by JHarris at 2:58 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
At least in the US it's against federal rules to have an apostrophe in the name of a place, hence Churchs Ferry North Dakota.
My wife, however, bristles over the store maurices -- is it a possessive? Is it a plural? It's not even capitalized, how is it even a name WHAT DOES IT MEAN
posted by AzraelBrown at 3:01 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
My wife, however, bristles over the store maurices -- is it a possessive? Is it a plural? It's not even capitalized, how is it even a name WHAT DOES IT MEAN
posted by AzraelBrown at 3:01 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
about now in the argument, some arsehole mentions 's-Hertogenbosch
posted by scruss at 3:08 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by scruss at 3:08 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
WHAT DOES IT MEAN
It’s their third or fourth rebrand after Space Cowboys and Gangsters of Loves, neither of which was getting them the clientele they were after - here’s hoping this one is better.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:15 PM on November 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
It’s their third or fourth rebrand after Space Cowboys and Gangsters of Loves, neither of which was getting them the clientele they were after - here’s hoping this one is better.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:15 PM on November 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
I followed you there, Jon. It was a bit of a journey, but we got there together.
posted by hippybear at 3:20 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:20 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
I deeply long to live in a world where this kind of wholesome, fun, and erudite advocacy was the only kind of advocacy needed
posted by cubby at 3:31 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cubby at 3:31 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
All I know is that the apostrophe in my name causes havoc when entering info online...
~75% chance that's because somebody isn't properly escaping their SQL inputs.
Lost in all this grammatical pedantry is the poor DBA trying to sanitize his inputs in a world gone mad. Will no one think of the string delimiters?
posted by Mayor West at 4:21 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
~75% chance that's because somebody isn't properly escaping their SQL inputs.
Lost in all this grammatical pedantry is the poor DBA trying to sanitize his inputs in a world gone mad. Will no one think of the string delimiters?
posted by Mayor West at 4:21 PM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Will no one think of the string delimiters?
Those that will, will weep.
Those that won't have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
posted by hippybear at 4:40 PM on November 17, 2023
Those that will, will weep.
Those that won't have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
posted by hippybear at 4:40 PM on November 17, 2023
At least in the US it's against federal rules to have an apostrophe in the name of a place, hence Churchs Ferry North Dakota.
that is interesting. I found these.
Alabama: Jacksons' Gap, Gorham's Bluff, Lacey's Spring
Alaska: Clark's Point, St. Mary's
Colorado: St. Mary's
Florida: Sewall's Point
Hawaii: Pu'uhonua O Honaunau National Historical Park
Idaho: Coeur d'Alene
Illinois: O'Fallon
Maryland: Martin's Additions, Prince George's County, Queen Anne's County
Michigan: L'Anse
Mississippi: D'Iberville, D'Lo
Missouri: Fountain N' Lakes, Lee's Summit, O'Fallon
Nebraska: O'Neill
New Hampshire: Drake's Corner, Fogg's Corner, Hart's Location, Monahan's Corner, Welsh's Corner
North Carolina: Cajah's Mountain, Wilson's Mills
North Dakorta: Reile's Acres
Oregon: O'Brien
South Carolina: Sullivan's Island
Tennessee: Parker's Crossroads, Thompson's Station
Texas: Bailey's Prairie, Carl's Corner, Miller's Cove, Morgan's Point, Port O'Connor
Wisconsin: Land O' Lakes.
posted by clavdivs at 4:55 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
that is interesting. I found these.
Alabama: Jacksons' Gap, Gorham's Bluff, Lacey's Spring
Alaska: Clark's Point, St. Mary's
Colorado: St. Mary's
Florida: Sewall's Point
Hawaii: Pu'uhonua O Honaunau National Historical Park
Idaho: Coeur d'Alene
Illinois: O'Fallon
Maryland: Martin's Additions, Prince George's County, Queen Anne's County
Michigan: L'Anse
Mississippi: D'Iberville, D'Lo
Missouri: Fountain N' Lakes, Lee's Summit, O'Fallon
Nebraska: O'Neill
New Hampshire: Drake's Corner, Fogg's Corner, Hart's Location, Monahan's Corner, Welsh's Corner
North Carolina: Cajah's Mountain, Wilson's Mills
North Dakorta: Reile's Acres
Oregon: O'Brien
South Carolina: Sullivan's Island
Tennessee: Parker's Crossroads, Thompson's Station
Texas: Bailey's Prairie, Carl's Corner, Miller's Cove, Morgan's Point, Port O'Connor
Wisconsin: Land O' Lakes.
posted by clavdivs at 4:55 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
The official county page for Reiles Acres doesn't have an apostrophe. Not saying it stops people from writing it with an apostrophe, just that the rule exists.
if you download the map for Reiles Acres, it has the apostrophe, so in conclusion America is a land of contrasts
posted by AzraelBrown at 5:32 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
if you download the map for Reiles Acres, it has the apostrophe, so in conclusion America is a land of contrasts
posted by AzraelBrown at 5:32 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
→
pretty sure that's an ʻokina, not an apostrophe: Puʻuhonua o Hōnaunau National Historical Park
posted by scruss at 6:17 PM on November 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Hawaii: Pu'uhonua O Honaunau National Historical Park
pretty sure that's an ʻokina, not an apostrophe: Puʻuhonua o Hōnaunau National Historical Park
posted by scruss at 6:17 PM on November 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
> And shouldn't that be Burgers King?
Yes it should. Along the same lines, the proper pluralization of the convenience store name is "Sevens Eleven". (It follows the same logic as "Oceans Eleven", of course.)
posted by Umami Dearest at 6:31 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes it should. Along the same lines, the proper pluralization of the convenience store name is "Sevens Eleven". (It follows the same logic as "Oceans Eleven", of course.)
posted by Umami Dearest at 6:31 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's like with Heinz 57 Sauce. It isn't Hein 57 Saucez.
posted by hippybear at 6:38 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:38 PM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
At least in the US it's against federal rules to have an apostrophe in the name of a place, hence Churchs Ferry North Dakota.
I expect that all this ends up meaning is that federal publications and databases don't record the apostrophes that are in various names like Prince George's County.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:56 PM on November 17, 2023
I expect that all this ends up meaning is that federal publications and databases don't record the apostrophes that are in various names like Prince George's County.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:56 PM on November 17, 2023
>>All I know is that the apostrophe in my name causes havoc when entering info online...
>~75% chance that's because somebody isn't properly escaping their SQL inputs.
Relevant legendary XKCD.
posted by JHarris at 9:12 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
>~75% chance that's because somebody isn't properly escaping their SQL inputs.
Relevant legendary XKCD.
posted by JHarris at 9:12 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
JHarris: If you really want to annoy people (and who doesn't?), use ^carets,^ or even *asterisks,* as quotation marks
Entrez «les guillemets dansants»!
Bella Donna: Do many languages use apostrophes, or is that mostly an English thing?
English added apostrophes to Irish family names because accents were too much trouble to type? The fada on the name of, say, comedian Dara Ó Briain slipped off. Current housing minister Darragh O'Brien has etymologically the same name = Oaky Bryansson.
posted by BobTheScientist at 12:07 AM on November 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Entrez «les guillemets dansants»!
Bella Donna: Do many languages use apostrophes, or is that mostly an English thing?
English added apostrophes to Irish family names because accents were too much trouble to type? The fada on the name of, say, comedian Dara Ó Briain slipped off. Current housing minister Darragh O'Brien has etymologically the same name = Oaky Bryansson.
posted by BobTheScientist at 12:07 AM on November 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
The article does mention the coding issue - "'Having worked in IT for many years it is absolutely standard to write algorithms that ignore punctuation and even spelling variations'".
I'm falling somewhere between "English eccentricity should be valued" and "goodness, the affluent residents of Twyford [average house price about £580k] need to get a real problem" in my reaction to this.
Guardian style guide on saint.
posted by paduasoy at 1:09 AM on November 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm falling somewhere between "English eccentricity should be valued" and "goodness, the affluent residents of Twyford [average house price about £580k] need to get a real problem" in my reaction to this.
Guardian style guide on saint.
posted by paduasoy at 1:09 AM on November 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do many languages use apostrophes, or is that mostly an English thing?
Well someone hasn't read Shakespeare in the original Klingon.
posted by biffa at 1:39 AM on November 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well someone hasn't read Shakespeare in the original Klingon.
posted by biffa at 1:39 AM on November 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Apostrophes and other punctuation are often omitted from road signs simply because such small dots and diddles are too small to really be seen: "Periods, apostrophes, question marks, ampersands, or other punctuation or characters that are not letters, numerals, or hyphens should not be used in abbreviations, unless necessary to avoid confusion."
So the whole debate about both the apostrophe AND the period in "St. Mary's Terrace" is pretty much 100% off base. Both should be omitted for the benefit of any motorists who may be whizzing past at 60+ mph. All other needs must bow down before this, because everyone knows that the needs of the motoring public are the only thing that counts in modern society.
In a somewhat related vein: I often type information into a certain software that then exports those fields as part of an XML document. The XML is then imported into a wide variety of devices and other software, most all of it filled with a large number of bugs and quirks of various sorts. Many times the import/export steps are repeated a few times among these various systems, exposing even more bugs.
Well, it turns out that the apostrophe is one of five characters in XML that absolutely cause it to choke if it should ever occur in an XML file.
And with the various buggy implementations of XML exporting and importing in this field, if there happens to be an apostrophe anywhere in any of the text you type, it is GUARANTEED to - eventually - make one or another of the programs or devices completely crash and fail to load the entire XML file.
Everything will appear fine at first. Then 6 months or a year later, you'll hear feedback from a user: "X module completely failed to load in my system." When you check the file, you'll find there is a single apostrophe that has somehow slipped into it.
TL;DR: Due to the unreliability and the resulting mayhem, I've gotten in the habit of simply omitting ALL apostrophes when type text into those fields.
Relevant to the topic of the OP: What Im entering into those fields is usually such things as street names, city names, and such. Exactly such stuff as "St Marys Terrace".
As a result of that one little change in one little program I sometimes use, within the past couple of years my highly honed ability to accurately include or omit apostrophes' as needed in every variation of plural and possessive, and in pronoun's of every type under the sun (THANK YOU Mr. Smith 5th Grade teacher/taskmaster) has completely withered and wilted.
I'm likely to include or omit apostrophe's essentially at random now. Its a damned shame, but thats just the way thing's have gone.
So just beware!
Apostrophes might be you're friend for now - but sooner or later, 'apostrophe amnesia' will be coming for each and every one of you! And once it strike's, it's effect's are completely irreversible.
posted by flug at 3:51 AM on November 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
So the whole debate about both the apostrophe AND the period in "St. Mary's Terrace" is pretty much 100% off base. Both should be omitted for the benefit of any motorists who may be whizzing past at 60+ mph. All other needs must bow down before this, because everyone knows that the needs of the motoring public are the only thing that counts in modern society.
In a somewhat related vein: I often type information into a certain software that then exports those fields as part of an XML document. The XML is then imported into a wide variety of devices and other software, most all of it filled with a large number of bugs and quirks of various sorts. Many times the import/export steps are repeated a few times among these various systems, exposing even more bugs.
Well, it turns out that the apostrophe is one of five characters in XML that absolutely cause it to choke if it should ever occur in an XML file.
And with the various buggy implementations of XML exporting and importing in this field, if there happens to be an apostrophe anywhere in any of the text you type, it is GUARANTEED to - eventually - make one or another of the programs or devices completely crash and fail to load the entire XML file.
Everything will appear fine at first. Then 6 months or a year later, you'll hear feedback from a user: "X module completely failed to load in my system." When you check the file, you'll find there is a single apostrophe that has somehow slipped into it.
TL;DR: Due to the unreliability and the resulting mayhem, I've gotten in the habit of simply omitting ALL apostrophes when type text into those fields.
Relevant to the topic of the OP: What Im entering into those fields is usually such things as street names, city names, and such. Exactly such stuff as "St Marys Terrace".
As a result of that one little change in one little program I sometimes use, within the past couple of years my highly honed ability to accurately include or omit apostrophes' as needed in every variation of plural and possessive, and in pronoun's of every type under the sun (THANK YOU Mr. Smith 5th Grade teacher/taskmaster) has completely withered and wilted.
I'm likely to include or omit apostrophe's essentially at random now. Its a damned shame, but thats just the way thing's have gone.
So just beware!
Apostrophes might be you're friend for now - but sooner or later, 'apostrophe amnesia' will be coming for each and every one of you! And once it strike's, it's effect's are completely irreversible.
posted by flug at 3:51 AM on November 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
Another classic: Bob's Quick Guide to the Apostrophe, You Idiots
posted by achrise at 4:42 AM on November 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by achrise at 4:42 AM on November 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
It has been a pleasure to follow the comments thus far and learn several new things in the process. Thanks, all!
posted by Bella Donna at 12:25 PM on November 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 12:25 PM on November 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
« Older "I wanted it all to go down." | How many in the U.S. are disabled? Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I edit medical school exams for punctuation and even if I start to accept that apostrophes should or should not exist with, for example, Graves disease, I wish I could get the doctors to write the questions consistently.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:05 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]