Texas judge allows abortion for woman whose fetus has fatal disorder
December 8, 2023 6:32 AM Subscribe
Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton's office issued a statement saying the temporary restraining order "will not insulate hospitals, doctors, or anyone else from civil and criminal liability.
The letter was sent to three hospitals where Damla Karsan, the doctor who said she would provide the abortion to Cox, has admitting privileges.
This is not an exemplary post, I am too angry to focus on finding the deep links to the court and Texas attorney general.
This is not an exemplary post, I am too angry to focus on finding the deep links to the court and Texas attorney general.
I am not a religious person. I never have been.
But in circumstances like these, where the power of the state is being brought against a woman living out a hopeless, nightmarish situation AND against the professionals who wish to uphold their Hippocratic Oath and aid her, with the specific aim of causing a person's suffering (through no fault of their own) to continue and worsen Because Jesus Said So...
...if there is an actual Hell, it waits patiently, and will gladly receive those responsible.
posted by delfin at 6:47 AM on December 8, 2023 [69 favorites]
But in circumstances like these, where the power of the state is being brought against a woman living out a hopeless, nightmarish situation AND against the professionals who wish to uphold their Hippocratic Oath and aid her, with the specific aim of causing a person's suffering (through no fault of their own) to continue and worsen Because Jesus Said So...
...if there is an actual Hell, it waits patiently, and will gladly receive those responsible.
posted by delfin at 6:47 AM on December 8, 2023 [69 favorites]
If I were the judge, I would immediately amend the TRO to enjoin Paxton from doing all the things he is threatening with regard to this case.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:51 AM on December 8, 2023 [33 favorites]
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 6:51 AM on December 8, 2023 [33 favorites]
Here's the Court's TRO.
Here's Paxton's press release and the full letter to providers.
Order to Show Cause and a Bar referral, in a sane state.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:55 AM on December 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
Here's Paxton's press release and the full letter to providers.
Order to Show Cause and a Bar referral, in a sane state.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:55 AM on December 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
Exactly. A TRO isn't good enough. He should be ordered to show cause why he should not be cited for contempt.
posted by 1adam12 at 6:57 AM on December 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 6:57 AM on December 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
somehow we are to believe that the exceptions written into these laws will be enough, that surely people's health will never be endangered, that those who write and impose these laws truly just care about life
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:01 AM on December 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:01 AM on December 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
A TRO isn't good enough.
To be fair, a TRO is always just a first step. It's what a litigant is able to get on short notice from a court without the opposing party having an opportunity to respond. The case is scheduled for a permanent injunction hearing on December 20, and the parties will be filing briefs ahead of that.
But again, if I were her lawyer, I would ask the Court to expand the scope of the injunction to prevent Paxton and his goons from using this law against anyone who contributes to Cox's abortion.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:04 AM on December 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
To be fair, a TRO is always just a first step. It's what a litigant is able to get on short notice from a court without the opposing party having an opportunity to respond. The case is scheduled for a permanent injunction hearing on December 20, and the parties will be filing briefs ahead of that.
But again, if I were her lawyer, I would ask the Court to expand the scope of the injunction to prevent Paxton and his goons from using this law against anyone who contributes to Cox's abortion.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:04 AM on December 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
Articles should really include the phrase "recently impeached by his own party" when mentioning Paxton.
posted by credulous at 7:21 AM on December 8, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by credulous at 7:21 AM on December 8, 2023 [36 favorites]
somehow we are to believe that the exceptions written into these laws will be enough, that surely people's health will never be endangered, that those who write and impose these laws truly just care about life
This is what happens when a person is in this kind of terrible situation and has the resources available to take her case to court, to appeal for a TRO, to fight for her rights and her health, knowing all the while that the clock is ticking and time is on the side of her oppressors, who do not need to win a court case to get their way but simply need to stall long enough for its outcome to be obvious and moot.
When someone is willing to take a stand and challenge bad law, knowing that her name will be memorized by every pro-life bad actor in Texas, knowing that a certain percentage of people she meets for the rest of her life will stare at her and growl, "OH. You're that one who wanted to MURDER HER BABY."
This circus is that person's reward. Against this kind of opposition, this is perhaps the BEST-case scenario.
Now imagine what happens to all those people who don't have those kinds of resources and that kind of willpower to persevere. (To be crystal clear, this is not shaming Cox in ANY WAY for having them, and I'm quite glad that she does.) But do think of the thousands who can't afford a court battle, who don't have doctors and lawyers willing to stick their necks out on their behalf, who can't choose to fly to a better state and "visit relatives" and come home with the crisis resolved (an option that many states want to criminalize in and of itself), whose lives and health are endangered and are simply stuck in a state of dread as the clock ticks away.
This litigation has Kate Cox's name on it, but she is both a horribly wronged individual and a placeholder for so many others.
posted by delfin at 7:26 AM on December 8, 2023 [106 favorites]
This is what happens when a person is in this kind of terrible situation and has the resources available to take her case to court, to appeal for a TRO, to fight for her rights and her health, knowing all the while that the clock is ticking and time is on the side of her oppressors, who do not need to win a court case to get their way but simply need to stall long enough for its outcome to be obvious and moot.
When someone is willing to take a stand and challenge bad law, knowing that her name will be memorized by every pro-life bad actor in Texas, knowing that a certain percentage of people she meets for the rest of her life will stare at her and growl, "OH. You're that one who wanted to MURDER HER BABY."
This circus is that person's reward. Against this kind of opposition, this is perhaps the BEST-case scenario.
Now imagine what happens to all those people who don't have those kinds of resources and that kind of willpower to persevere. (To be crystal clear, this is not shaming Cox in ANY WAY for having them, and I'm quite glad that she does.) But do think of the thousands who can't afford a court battle, who don't have doctors and lawyers willing to stick their necks out on their behalf, who can't choose to fly to a better state and "visit relatives" and come home with the crisis resolved (an option that many states want to criminalize in and of itself), whose lives and health are endangered and are simply stuck in a state of dread as the clock ticks away.
This litigation has Kate Cox's name on it, but she is both a horribly wronged individual and a placeholder for so many others.
posted by delfin at 7:26 AM on December 8, 2023 [106 favorites]
I guess some people really don’t care about other people at all.
posted by bq at 7:36 AM on December 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by bq at 7:36 AM on December 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Fucking soulless ghouls, the lot of them.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:47 AM on December 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 7:47 AM on December 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
They care, but not in a good way. If they only didn't care, that would be an improvement.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:48 AM on December 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:48 AM on December 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
A gentle request: could we not call the people who want to force birth on people they don't know "pro-lifers". They are so very obviously not pro life in this case, where Kate Cox is at danger.
posted by mumimor at 7:49 AM on December 8, 2023 [50 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 7:49 AM on December 8, 2023 [50 favorites]
"Forced-birthers" is the term I've been using...
posted by chasing at 8:01 AM on December 8, 2023 [53 favorites]
posted by chasing at 8:01 AM on December 8, 2023 [53 favorites]
Favoriting isn't good enough for delfin's two comments so far, which are brilliant and spot-on, so (applause).
Also a shoutout for good use of the "HandmaidsTale" tag.
posted by martin q blank at 8:12 AM on December 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also a shoutout for good use of the "HandmaidsTale" tag.
posted by martin q blank at 8:12 AM on December 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
who can't choose to fly to a better state and "visit relatives" and come home with the crisis resolved (an option that many states want to criminalize in and of itself),
And they can't do that, right? Wasn't the whole point of the Constitution (after the Articles of Confederation failed due to the states not agreeing on anything) that we're all one nation and need to recognize one other?
posted by Melismata at 8:17 AM on December 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
And they can't do that, right? Wasn't the whole point of the Constitution (after the Articles of Confederation failed due to the states not agreeing on anything) that we're all one nation and need to recognize one other?
posted by Melismata at 8:17 AM on December 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Former U.S. Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., once quipped that a pro-life advocate is someone who believes that “life begins at conception and ends at birth.”posted by y2karl at 8:34 AM on December 8, 2023 [57 favorites]
This is not an exemplary post, I am too angry to focus on finding the deep links to the court and Texas attorney general.
Don't sweat it! When I checked out the press release on the AG's own site, the "to read the letter, click here" link led...to Twitter, where there are screenshots of the letter. Completely unserious behavior
Edit: As linked by snuffleupagus above
posted by pullayup at 8:43 AM on December 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Don't sweat it! When I checked out the press release on the AG's own site, the "to read the letter, click here" link led...to Twitter, where there are screenshots of the letter. Completely unserious behavior
Edit: As linked by snuffleupagus above
posted by pullayup at 8:43 AM on December 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Ken Paxton is such a loathsome, grotesque parody of a human being, and the fact that he keeps getting away with not only this sort of ghoulish cruelty but also just outright corruption and criminal activity is fucking infuriating, even more so knowing that he's sitting in his office, arching his fingers like Mr. Burns and cackling over what a slick scumbag he is.
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:47 AM on December 8, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:47 AM on December 8, 2023 [28 favorites]
And they can't do that, right? Wasn't the whole point of the Constitution (after the Articles of Confederation failed due to the states not agreeing on anything) that we're all one nation and need to recognize one other?
They are absolutely trying.
"That frustration is driving a new strategy in heavily conservative cities and counties across Texas. Designed by the architects of the state’s “heartbeat” ban that took effect months before Roe fell, ordinances like the one proposed in Llano — where some 80 percent of voters in the county backed President Donald Trump in 2020 — make it illegal to transport anyone to get an abortion on roads within the city or county limits. The laws allow any private citizen to sue a person or organization they suspect of violating the ordinance."
"Antiabortion advocates behind the measure are targeting regions along interstates and in areas with airports, with the goal of blocking off the main arteries out of Texas and keeping pregnant women hemmed within the confines of their antiabortion state."
posted by delfin at 8:54 AM on December 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
They are absolutely trying.
"That frustration is driving a new strategy in heavily conservative cities and counties across Texas. Designed by the architects of the state’s “heartbeat” ban that took effect months before Roe fell, ordinances like the one proposed in Llano — where some 80 percent of voters in the county backed President Donald Trump in 2020 — make it illegal to transport anyone to get an abortion on roads within the city or county limits. The laws allow any private citizen to sue a person or organization they suspect of violating the ordinance."
"Antiabortion advocates behind the measure are targeting regions along interstates and in areas with airports, with the goal of blocking off the main arteries out of Texas and keeping pregnant women hemmed within the confines of their antiabortion state."
posted by delfin at 8:54 AM on December 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. It's totally OK to speak in highly critical terms about people, but let's not call anyone "subhuman trash", yes, even them.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:02 AM on December 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 9:02 AM on December 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
But again, if I were her lawyer, I would ask the Court to expand the scope of the injunction to prevent Paxton and his goons from using this law against anyone who contributes to Cox's abortion.
The problem is he'd have to enjoin either every Texan from filing a civil suit, or every court in Texas from accepting such a suit. SB8 is designed to be injunction-resistant.
SB8 has also the following section: "Notwithstanding any other law, the following are not a
defense to an action brought under this section: [...] a defendant’s reliance on any court decision that has been overruled on appeal or by a subsequent court, even if that court decision had not been overruled when the defendant engaged in conduct that violates this subchapter."
If the TRO is overruled then if someone had performed an abortion relying on it it seems like the civil liability comes back retroactively.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:11 AM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
The problem is he'd have to enjoin either every Texan from filing a civil suit, or every court in Texas from accepting such a suit. SB8 is designed to be injunction-resistant.
SB8 has also the following section: "Notwithstanding any other law, the following are not a
defense to an action brought under this section: [...] a defendant’s reliance on any court decision that has been overruled on appeal or by a subsequent court, even if that court decision had not been overruled when the defendant engaged in conduct that violates this subchapter."
If the TRO is overruled then if someone had performed an abortion relying on it it seems like the civil liability comes back retroactively.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:11 AM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is awful, it must be so scary to be pregnant in these states where the government is happy for you to suffer or die from any complication.
The laws allow any private citizen to sue a person or organization they suspect of violating the ordinance
If this kind of idiotic end run around the constitution isn't firmly stopped it will mean the end of the 1st and 2nd amendments. In blue states anyone will be able to sue assault rifle owners, while in red states you will be able to sue people for speaking ill of the supreme leader or failing to attend an approved church.
posted by being_quiet at 9:11 AM on December 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
The laws allow any private citizen to sue a person or organization they suspect of violating the ordinance
If this kind of idiotic end run around the constitution isn't firmly stopped it will mean the end of the 1st and 2nd amendments. In blue states anyone will be able to sue assault rifle owners, while in red states you will be able to sue people for speaking ill of the supreme leader or failing to attend an approved church.
posted by being_quiet at 9:11 AM on December 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
Perhaps the US Public Health Service should create a force of uniformed deputies empowered to protect Federal rights from state infringement in this area by arresting those individuals attempting to interfere with people traveling to obtain care.
We could call them the Unfuckwithables.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:12 AM on December 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
We could call them the Unfuckwithables.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:12 AM on December 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
Good luck finding an ob-gyn in Texas in a couple of years.
posted by jamjam at 9:16 AM on December 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 9:16 AM on December 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
In blue states anyone will be able to sue assault rifle owners
You would think so, but naturally a federal judge struck down an attempt to do this.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:17 AM on December 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
You would think so, but naturally a federal judge struck down an attempt to do this.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:17 AM on December 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Isn't that a type of ex post facto law, and therefore unconstitutional?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:18 AM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:18 AM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's a criminal law doctrine.
(And even there, it applies to past acts. These kinds of laws don't purport to impose civil liability retroactively.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:19 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
(And even there, it applies to past acts. These kinds of laws don't purport to impose civil liability retroactively.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:19 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Monsters. There is simply no other word I can find for people who could do this. Ken Paxton is a monster. (And OP, we all understand your fury.)
posted by NorthernLite at 9:29 AM on December 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by NorthernLite at 9:29 AM on December 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
Now imagine what happens to all those people who don't have those kinds of resources and that kind of willpower to persevere.
She appears to be doing this for their - for our - sake.
posted by Selena777 at 9:32 AM on December 8, 2023 [22 favorites]
She appears to be doing this for their - for our - sake.
posted by Selena777 at 9:32 AM on December 8, 2023 [22 favorites]
jamjam, you'd think, but the OB I used to see here left the area to move with her family to Texas. At my last office visit I asked her about it - we knew each other as fellow parents at our local school and I liked her so much as a doctor. She responded that she never wanted to do abortions, that she had hoped rural Ohio would be a good fit for her in that respect, and that they were mostly moving to make sure her Latine stepkids had schools that were truly bilingual and would support their acquisition of English. She said she had no objections to her patients getting care, and did referrals when necessary, but she got into this area of practice to bring babies into the world, not to end pregnancies.
Readers, I went home and wept. This world.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 9:36 AM on December 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
Readers, I went home and wept. This world.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 9:36 AM on December 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
Monsters. There is simply no other word I can find for people who could do this. Ken Paxton is a monster.
He's worse than a monster.
He's a human.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:38 AM on December 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
He's worse than a monster.
He's a human.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:38 AM on December 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
Ken Paxton is evil, and a monster, but he doesn't operate in a vacuum.
Four million-plus Texans voted him into office. There is also the subset of Texans who work for him and either follow orders without questioning, or carry out his directives with malicious glee. There is another subset of Texans in state government who kept him in office at his impeachment trial.
All of that being said, the heart of the cruelty began with a judge making medical decisions here as a doctor would, not interpreting law as a normal officer of the court.
Everyone who can vote in America needs to remember and be reminded of what is happening here, when the 2024 general election comes around. There are Paxtons under every rock, waiting.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:39 AM on December 8, 2023 [30 favorites]
Four million-plus Texans voted him into office. There is also the subset of Texans who work for him and either follow orders without questioning, or carry out his directives with malicious glee. There is another subset of Texans in state government who kept him in office at his impeachment trial.
All of that being said, the heart of the cruelty began with a judge making medical decisions here as a doctor would, not interpreting law as a normal officer of the court.
Everyone who can vote in America needs to remember and be reminded of what is happening here, when the 2024 general election comes around. There are Paxtons under every rock, waiting.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:39 AM on December 8, 2023 [30 favorites]
Question for law aware people…. What I would like to understand is why can legislators pass laws governing standard medical practice by specifying their preferred medical practices? They are not licensed physicians (or if some of them are, they are doing this in a non medical context.) Could a legislator pass a bill requiring all bone breaks in human limbs be treated only with Ace bandages? This all seems to me that they are practicing medicine without a license. Should we expect louder cries from the actual doctors? Legislators, in general, are making decisions outside of their expertise, if they even have any. This sentence applies to a lot of other situations they make laws about. Given that their usual arguments hinge on particular religious points of view, eg morality, etc, isn’t it time for the rest of us to demand freedom from religion?
posted by njohnson23 at 9:40 AM on December 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 9:40 AM on December 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
why can legislators pass laws governing standard medical practice by specifying their preferred medical practices
This cuts both ways though, should legislatures be allowed to ban conversion therapy?
posted by BungaDunga at 9:51 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
This cuts both ways though, should legislatures be allowed to ban conversion therapy?
posted by BungaDunga at 9:51 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Conversion therapy isn't a standard medical practice, but a discredited one.
posted by Gelatin at 9:54 AM on December 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 9:54 AM on December 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
They're writing medical policy, not practicing medicine. They aren't treating patients in the statehouse.
Could a legislator pass a bill requiring all bone breaks in human limbs be treated only with Ace bandages?
Yes, that is kind of what we have today. The Federal legislature created a complex regulatory regime to whitelist specific medical products (the FDA). I don't know if this applies to bandages, but definitely to more complex medical products like drugs and prosthetics. That FDA approval system is mostly science-based, and Federal preemption limits individual States' ability to cause problems. But the rules, at a high level, come by way of the legislature.
posted by ryanrs at 9:58 AM on December 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Could a legislator pass a bill requiring all bone breaks in human limbs be treated only with Ace bandages?
Yes, that is kind of what we have today. The Federal legislature created a complex regulatory regime to whitelist specific medical products (the FDA). I don't know if this applies to bandages, but definitely to more complex medical products like drugs and prosthetics. That FDA approval system is mostly science-based, and Federal preemption limits individual States' ability to cause problems. But the rules, at a high level, come by way of the legislature.
posted by ryanrs at 9:58 AM on December 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Even if conversion therapy worked it would be totally reasonable for a legislature to ban it for other reasons.
Legislating morality is, like, at least half of the point of the criminal code. We ban murder because we think it's wrong. Texas is doing evil here, but it's not really out of the usual bounds of moral judgements laws have always made?
posted by BungaDunga at 9:59 AM on December 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Legislating morality is, like, at least half of the point of the criminal code. We ban murder because we think it's wrong. Texas is doing evil here, but it's not really out of the usual bounds of moral judgements laws have always made?
posted by BungaDunga at 9:59 AM on December 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
should legislatures be allowed to ban conversion therapy?
I suppose it depends on if legislation should be able to ban child abuse. And some people say they shouldn't, that it doesn't matter how much a parent brutalizes a child for terrible reasons
posted by Jacen at 10:01 AM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I suppose it depends on if legislation should be able to ban child abuse. And some people say they shouldn't, that it doesn't matter how much a parent brutalizes a child for terrible reasons
posted by Jacen at 10:01 AM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
What is standard and what is discredited in medicine, sadly, can be subject to what a judge says it is. And the fun of jurisdiction shopping is that, by clever filing and a little planning, you can end up with someone like District Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk presiding over such a case.
We are, after all, in a situation where a self-certified ophthalmologist keeps trying to get Dr. Anthony Fauci locked up because he claims he knows far more about virology and medical ethics than Fauci does.
Legislating morality is, like, at least half of the point of the criminal code. We ban murder because we think it's wrong. Texas is doing evil here, but it's not really out of the usual bounds of moral judgements laws have always made?
If a law has a distinct and important secular purpose, that's one thing. We ban murder because it deprives a human being of life without just cause for doing so.
If a law boils down to "You cannot do the following because Jesus Says So," that's a very different moral judgment. Ask a Jewish woman, for instance, how she feels about evangelical Christians' take on abortion having legal priority over her own religion's take on it.
posted by delfin at 10:06 AM on December 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
We are, after all, in a situation where a self-certified ophthalmologist keeps trying to get Dr. Anthony Fauci locked up because he claims he knows far more about virology and medical ethics than Fauci does.
Legislating morality is, like, at least half of the point of the criminal code. We ban murder because we think it's wrong. Texas is doing evil here, but it's not really out of the usual bounds of moral judgements laws have always made?
If a law has a distinct and important secular purpose, that's one thing. We ban murder because it deprives a human being of life without just cause for doing so.
If a law boils down to "You cannot do the following because Jesus Says So," that's a very different moral judgment. Ask a Jewish woman, for instance, how she feels about evangelical Christians' take on abortion having legal priority over her own religion's take on it.
posted by delfin at 10:06 AM on December 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
These women are testing the law on purpose, and it's extremely courageous. They have my gratitude and admiration.
I hate every legislature that thinks women should not have bodily autonomy.
posted by theora55 at 10:11 AM on December 8, 2023 [26 favorites]
I hate every legislature that thinks women should not have bodily autonomy.
posted by theora55 at 10:11 AM on December 8, 2023 [26 favorites]
Don’t call the nazis ‘nazis’.
It might hurt their feelings.
posted by chronkite at 10:12 AM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
It might hurt their feelings.
posted by chronkite at 10:12 AM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not sure what to say, other than, if there is a hell, as Ken Paxton seems to be believe, chances are very good that he's going there.
posted by sid at 10:26 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sid at 10:26 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Articles should really include the phrase "recently impeached by his own party" when mentioning Paxton.
Also currently (STILL) under federal indictment Ken Paxton.
posted by pantarei70 at 10:30 AM on December 8, 2023 [14 favorites]
Also currently (STILL) under federal indictment Ken Paxton.
posted by pantarei70 at 10:30 AM on December 8, 2023 [14 favorites]
These women are testing the law on purpose, and it's extremely courageous.
Even more so because in order to be able to test this law on these particular grounds, they have to *already* be going through something incredibly difficult and traumatic. It isn't something just anyone could have volunteered to be the face of. The 'much wanted baby who just won't survive and might kill the mother if carried to term' is part of ensuring that the test case has the highest possible chance of success but then you need someone who can endure that and the legal fight to step forward and do it.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:33 AM on December 8, 2023 [38 favorites]
Even more so because in order to be able to test this law on these particular grounds, they have to *already* be going through something incredibly difficult and traumatic. It isn't something just anyone could have volunteered to be the face of. The 'much wanted baby who just won't survive and might kill the mother if carried to term' is part of ensuring that the test case has the highest possible chance of success but then you need someone who can endure that and the legal fight to step forward and do it.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:33 AM on December 8, 2023 [38 favorites]
IIRC Cox is exactly the type of patient previous lawsuits said is needed--someone who needs an abortion NOW and can't get it due to lack of clarity in the current law. The other ongoing case with 20 women suing as they were unable to obtain abortions had the TX courts question their standing since none were currently pregnant, among other issues.
posted by beaning at 11:16 AM on December 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by beaning at 11:16 AM on December 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
In the Roe era, overriding Federal law did take this out of the hands of the statehouses. And more generally, the Warren, Burger and Rhenquist eras in comparison to the ongoing erosion of the regulatory state since, which is a pillar of the Federalist Society's overarching project. (Though paring back expansive powers under the Commerce Clause began during Rhenquist's term.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:26 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:26 AM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I searched my own comment history for a comment I made about how, "[I]t already will take federal troops to restore order," thinking it was years ago. It was only February. These unreconstructed confederates are already — still, and for nearly 150 years since the end of Reconstruction — in open revolt against The United States of America. I really think it's long past time to stop coddling them.
posted by ob1quixote at 12:47 PM on December 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 12:47 PM on December 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
Warren Kenneth Paxton has the almost perfect anagram of “anther nonexpert wank”. But for the lack of an “o” it would be perfect.
Childish yes, but fuck that guy.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:01 PM on December 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Childish yes, but fuck that guy.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:01 PM on December 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
nother nanexpert wank, it's dialectal
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:09 PM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:09 PM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, I guess if we've gone this long, I'm going to have to be the one to go "It's like flames, flames on the side of my face...."
posted by hippybear at 2:39 PM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:39 PM on December 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am continually amazed at how weak and cowardly conservatives in general seem to be.
Notice that at no point did Paxton actually just say that he intends to prosecut anyone involved to the greatest extent of the law as soon as he can. Instead he phrased it all in pathetic passive voice warnings like a sleazy thug from a crime drama might use when shaking someone down.
But the worst part is that solid majority of Texans are 100% behind him and applauding this. Somehow they see it not as a woman beingordered to die by the state but as bold brave Ken Paxton standing up for the babeez.
They voted him in, and they will do so again the next chance they get. I know, I live and work with them. This is not a horrible revelation moment where they wake up and ask "oh God what have we done?!" No, surely this won't. They like this outcome.
I don't think they are especially bloodthirsty in the conventional way, but they see women dying for the sake of antiabortion laws as a sort of proof that they are standing firm for thier beliefs in the face of Satan's efforts to divert them from the truth. They see it as a sort of grim heroic sacrifice they're making becasue otherwise liberals will kill babies.
posted by sotonohito at 3:26 PM on December 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
Notice that at no point did Paxton actually just say that he intends to prosecut anyone involved to the greatest extent of the law as soon as he can. Instead he phrased it all in pathetic passive voice warnings like a sleazy thug from a crime drama might use when shaking someone down.
But the worst part is that solid majority of Texans are 100% behind him and applauding this. Somehow they see it not as a woman beingordered to die by the state but as bold brave Ken Paxton standing up for the babeez.
They voted him in, and they will do so again the next chance they get. I know, I live and work with them. This is not a horrible revelation moment where they wake up and ask "oh God what have we done?!" No, surely this won't. They like this outcome.
I don't think they are especially bloodthirsty in the conventional way, but they see women dying for the sake of antiabortion laws as a sort of proof that they are standing firm for thier beliefs in the face of Satan's efforts to divert them from the truth. They see it as a sort of grim heroic sacrifice they're making becasue otherwise liberals will kill babies.
posted by sotonohito at 3:26 PM on December 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
Christ died for my sins and it's all your fault.
posted by flabdablet at 3:56 PM on December 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 3:56 PM on December 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
But the worst part is that solid majority of Texans are 100% behind him and applauding this. Somehow they see it not as a woman beingordered to die by the state but as bold brave Ken Paxton standing up for the babeez.
I have already seen social media warriors declaring that the mother is a liar, that her health is not in danger in any way, that the test for the disorder identified in the fetus "has an 80% failure rate," and that this is all a Trojan horse for Big Abortion to ram abortion-on-demand down the throats of good, God-fearing Texan patriots.
So if people are reading what they want to hear that will justify their conservative moral outrage, which is precisely what the Mirror Universe Media is designed to blanket the airwaves with, they will compartmentalize this as nothing to get upset about. Probably some liberal activist trying to get away with something, right? They'll do anything to try to subvert the proper order of things.
And if it takes six more weeks for this to be settled and it's past the second trimester, well, then, those evil Dems want abortion-on-demand to the moment of birth AND BEYOND! Trump said so, and here's the proof.
And the other giveaway is that Kate Cox herself is not being threatened with prosecution; the doctors and hospitals and related personnel are. This is not about punishing Kate Cox; this is about the chill effect so that the next time a case even remotely like hers arrives, they will all shake their heads sadly and state "We're sorry, but under the law there's nothing that we can do."
And to many Texans, a bad ending for Kate Cox is a small price to pay for eliminating even the possibility of occasional legal abortions in their state.
posted by delfin at 5:01 PM on December 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
I have already seen social media warriors declaring that the mother is a liar, that her health is not in danger in any way, that the test for the disorder identified in the fetus "has an 80% failure rate," and that this is all a Trojan horse for Big Abortion to ram abortion-on-demand down the throats of good, God-fearing Texan patriots.
So if people are reading what they want to hear that will justify their conservative moral outrage, which is precisely what the Mirror Universe Media is designed to blanket the airwaves with, they will compartmentalize this as nothing to get upset about. Probably some liberal activist trying to get away with something, right? They'll do anything to try to subvert the proper order of things.
And if it takes six more weeks for this to be settled and it's past the second trimester, well, then, those evil Dems want abortion-on-demand to the moment of birth AND BEYOND! Trump said so, and here's the proof.
And the other giveaway is that Kate Cox herself is not being threatened with prosecution; the doctors and hospitals and related personnel are. This is not about punishing Kate Cox; this is about the chill effect so that the next time a case even remotely like hers arrives, they will all shake their heads sadly and state "We're sorry, but under the law there's nothing that we can do."
And to many Texans, a bad ending for Kate Cox is a small price to pay for eliminating even the possibility of occasional legal abortions in their state.
posted by delfin at 5:01 PM on December 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
Ah, the powers-that-be are testing out options on the armchair American public, I see -- which means untrained opinions are missing the nuances
that her health is not in danger in any way,
Because of her previous c-sections, carrying the pregnancy to full term has risks that may be acceptable to her for a healthy baby but are no longer acceptable to her/her physicians given the increased risk to induce labor/repeat c-section. Which might indeed prevent her from other pregnancies given current OB/MFM attitudes on how many VBACs post c-section or c-sections in general are advisable.
that the test for the disorder identified in the fetus "has an 80% failure rate,"
IMO, this ties into the 3rd point of the Paxton letter regarding second opinions. I further expect, it will lead to a thousand arguments about the who/what/where/when and why of second opinions in situations where sonogram and chromosomes can rightfully vary (not all fatal conditions have c'some anomalies and not all c'some anomalies have sono findings, esp early pre-18'ish wks). Also can't wait for insurance companies to be more than happy to cover unneeded "confirmation" testing. (re the 80% inaccuracy rate, this may be a dig at NIPT which are *screenings* and not diagnostic and highly driven by complex statistics as to what the false positive/false negative rate is. Actual fetal chromo/array studies are highly accurate.)
I truly hope Ms Cox, her family, and Dr Karsan are receiving all the love, support, and protection they need.
posted by beaning at 5:39 PM on December 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
that her health is not in danger in any way,
Because of her previous c-sections, carrying the pregnancy to full term has risks that may be acceptable to her for a healthy baby but are no longer acceptable to her/her physicians given the increased risk to induce labor/repeat c-section. Which might indeed prevent her from other pregnancies given current OB/MFM attitudes on how many VBACs post c-section or c-sections in general are advisable.
that the test for the disorder identified in the fetus "has an 80% failure rate,"
IMO, this ties into the 3rd point of the Paxton letter regarding second opinions. I further expect, it will lead to a thousand arguments about the who/what/where/when and why of second opinions in situations where sonogram and chromosomes can rightfully vary (not all fatal conditions have c'some anomalies and not all c'some anomalies have sono findings, esp early pre-18'ish wks). Also can't wait for insurance companies to be more than happy to cover unneeded "confirmation" testing. (re the 80% inaccuracy rate, this may be a dig at NIPT which are *screenings* and not diagnostic and highly driven by complex statistics as to what the false positive/false negative rate is. Actual fetal chromo/array studies are highly accurate.)
I truly hope Ms Cox, her family, and Dr Karsan are receiving all the love, support, and protection they need.
posted by beaning at 5:39 PM on December 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
This reminds me of a passage from anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy's "Mother Nature", about an earlier abortion bill debate in the US Senate:
As the debate unfolded, the rush of blood and pounding heart beneath the senator's coat and tie spoke volumes about motivations far deeper, far older, than members of Congress ordinarily consider. Like all humans, and indeed as is typical of the entire Primate order, the senator exhibited an intense, even obsessive, interest in the reproductive condition of other group members. Like other high-status male primates before him, he was intent on controlling when, where and how females belonging to his group reproduced. One former member of the House of Representatives, however, sensed that there was more at stake than just the issues under debate. "It's very interesting the issues they select," observed Patricia Schroeder of Colorado. "They don't want to intervene in the bodily functions of men."posted by clawsoon at 6:03 PM on December 8, 2023 [17 favorites]
(STILL) under federal indictment Ken Paxton
Yes, he was impeached by his own party and he's facing multiple counts of securities fraud, either of which would make other people keep a lower profile. Paxton, instead, is standing up on his hind legs and basking in the attention he's receiving for his gratuitous cruelty.
What a vile excuse for a human.
posted by virago at 8:08 PM on December 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes, he was impeached by his own party and he's facing multiple counts of securities fraud, either of which would make other people keep a lower profile. Paxton, instead, is standing up on his hind legs and basking in the attention he's receiving for his gratuitous cruelty.
What a vile excuse for a human.
posted by virago at 8:08 PM on December 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Per the Center for Reproductive Justice's X/Twitter account just now, the Texas Supreme Court temporarily halted a lower court ruling that would have allowed Kate Cox, our plaintiff with severe pregnancy complications, to have an abortion to protect her health and future fertility.
posted by beaning at 8:22 PM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by beaning at 8:22 PM on December 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
CBS News link on the Texas Supreme Court ruling.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:14 PM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:14 PM on December 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's shocking to read your descriptions of how this is seen in Texas. I literally thought surely this... when I posted.
We have discussed before on MetaFilter how and why the the maternal mortality rates in the US are unacceptably high, compared to other developed nations. Laws like this one are likely to worsen the situation.
posted by mumimor at 12:52 AM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
We have discussed before on MetaFilter how and why the the maternal mortality rates in the US are unacceptably high, compared to other developed nations. Laws like this one are likely to worsen the situation.
posted by mumimor at 12:52 AM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
And the states that have banned abortion since the overturning of Roe are exactly those with the highest maternal mortality rates And of course everything looks even worse if you look at maternal mortality by race. Infant mortality is also sky high in those states. And those numbers are heartbreaking when broken down by race. This is not about saving lives.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:46 AM on December 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:46 AM on December 9, 2023 [19 favorites]
WaPo on the TX Supreme Court ruling.
Without regard to the merits... (.pdf)
posted by box at 6:35 AM on December 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Without regard to the merits... (.pdf)
posted by box at 6:35 AM on December 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
They see it as a sort of grim heroic sacrifice they're forcing women to make because otherwise liberals will kill babies.
Fixed.
posted by non canadian guy at 8:36 AM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Fixed.
posted by non canadian guy at 8:36 AM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's shocking to read your descriptions of how this is seen in Texas. I literally thought surely this... when I posted.
There are, of course, millions of good and moral people in Texas who are horrified by these proceedings and their implications.
They are simply outnumbered.
posted by delfin at 9:56 AM on December 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
There are, of course, millions of good and moral people in Texas who are horrified by these proceedings and their implications.
They are simply outnumbered.
posted by delfin at 9:56 AM on December 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
And disenfranchised.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:34 AM on December 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:34 AM on December 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
The Texas Tribune article I linked earlier is an excellent illustration of how this kind of thing works in small-town America.
The proposed "stop abortion trafficking" ordinance was brought in by outsiders, conservative think-tankers supplying cookie-cutter legislation to cherry-picked conservative communities, with a charismatic There's-Trouble-In-River-City type whipping up emotions. Many who enthusiastically backed the measure mischaracterized it when interviewed, apparently confused or misinformed as to its actual impact. The mayor of the article's town was equally confused on the details, but supported it anyway and characterized it as "largely symbolic." And when the measure did not pass because city council members actually read the proposed ordinance and were uncomfortable with its specifics, the rabble-rouser encouraged locals to picket those members' businesses to pressure them to recant, then packed up to sell the next small town on lurching towards Christopia.
And what made Llano different from many towns is that they actually had council members who stopped to read and think and consider what it was that they were about to do, and who were willing to stand by their principles when many in their town wanted them to simply rubber-stamp this. With the nature of local elected offices and the low turnout that their elections receive, rubber stamps are far more common than they should be, and independent thinkers often find themselves replaced at the next opportunity.
posted by delfin at 11:13 AM on December 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
The proposed "stop abortion trafficking" ordinance was brought in by outsiders, conservative think-tankers supplying cookie-cutter legislation to cherry-picked conservative communities, with a charismatic There's-Trouble-In-River-City type whipping up emotions. Many who enthusiastically backed the measure mischaracterized it when interviewed, apparently confused or misinformed as to its actual impact. The mayor of the article's town was equally confused on the details, but supported it anyway and characterized it as "largely symbolic." And when the measure did not pass because city council members actually read the proposed ordinance and were uncomfortable with its specifics, the rabble-rouser encouraged locals to picket those members' businesses to pressure them to recant, then packed up to sell the next small town on lurching towards Christopia.
And what made Llano different from many towns is that they actually had council members who stopped to read and think and consider what it was that they were about to do, and who were willing to stand by their principles when many in their town wanted them to simply rubber-stamp this. With the nature of local elected offices and the low turnout that their elections receive, rubber stamps are far more common than they should be, and independent thinkers often find themselves replaced at the next opportunity.
posted by delfin at 11:13 AM on December 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
Poll: One year after SB 8, Texans express strong support for abortion rights
In a new survey, six in 10 voters said they support abortion being "available in all or most cases," and many say abortion will be a motivating issue at the ballot box in November. Meanwhile, 11% say they favor a total ban on abortion.
I've seen Pew polling that's a bit different, closer to 50/50. Not sure how things may have changed in the year since the article was written.
posted by kensington314 at 11:32 AM on December 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
In a new survey, six in 10 voters said they support abortion being "available in all or most cases," and many say abortion will be a motivating issue at the ballot box in November. Meanwhile, 11% say they favor a total ban on abortion.
I've seen Pew polling that's a bit different, closer to 50/50. Not sure how things may have changed in the year since the article was written.
posted by kensington314 at 11:32 AM on December 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've seen concern about women being at risk of prosecution for miscarriages, but it looks to me as though their gynecologists might also be at risk.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:34 AM on December 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:34 AM on December 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
She has a court (and doctor’s) order for an abortion. He’s just Ken
(WaPo, gift link)
posted by stevis23 at 12:04 PM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
(WaPo, gift link)
posted by stevis23 at 12:04 PM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Real men get vasectomies
posted by eustatic at 2:20 PM on December 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 2:20 PM on December 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of those texas Supreme Court Justices is kinda of a right wing loon.
John Devine ;
known for his fight to keep the Ten Commandments displayed in his Houston courtroom.
his activism on behalf of anti-abortion causes raised concerns when it appeared likely he would hear cases related to abortion laws.
Devine has not shrunk from making his anti-abortion ideology a prominent part of his judicial campaign. At a June rally in Fort Worth, he described his convictions as being “forged in the crucibles” of the anti-abortion movement and told the crowd he had been arrested 37 times while protesting abortion clinics. A campaign video relates a decision to continue a high-risk pregnancy, his wife Nubia’s seventh, which they said was likely to end in the deaths of both mother and child. Nubia Devine survived the birth. Their daughter lived for an hour after she was born.
--
on same sex marriage;
. “Marriage is a fundamental right,” Devine wrote. “Spousal benefits are not.” Devine insisted that Obergefell’s affirmation of same-sex couples’ constitutional right to wed does not preclude Texas from discriminating against married, same-sex couples in other ways.
Why should Texas be permitted to deprive same-sex couples of the benefits provided to opposite-sex couples? Because the state has an “interest in encouraging procreation.” Devine speculates that “offering certain benefits to opposite-sex couples would encourage procreation within marriage.”
posted by yyz at 2:21 PM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
John Devine ;
known for his fight to keep the Ten Commandments displayed in his Houston courtroom.
his activism on behalf of anti-abortion causes raised concerns when it appeared likely he would hear cases related to abortion laws.
Devine has not shrunk from making his anti-abortion ideology a prominent part of his judicial campaign. At a June rally in Fort Worth, he described his convictions as being “forged in the crucibles” of the anti-abortion movement and told the crowd he had been arrested 37 times while protesting abortion clinics. A campaign video relates a decision to continue a high-risk pregnancy, his wife Nubia’s seventh, which they said was likely to end in the deaths of both mother and child. Nubia Devine survived the birth. Their daughter lived for an hour after she was born.
--
on same sex marriage;
. “Marriage is a fundamental right,” Devine wrote. “Spousal benefits are not.” Devine insisted that Obergefell’s affirmation of same-sex couples’ constitutional right to wed does not preclude Texas from discriminating against married, same-sex couples in other ways.
Why should Texas be permitted to deprive same-sex couples of the benefits provided to opposite-sex couples? Because the state has an “interest in encouraging procreation.” Devine speculates that “offering certain benefits to opposite-sex couples would encourage procreation within marriage.”
posted by yyz at 2:21 PM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I know it's a medical procedure that takes preparation and all, but it's really a shame that by the time the Texas Supremes tried to stop the order it wasn't already moot.
posted by hippybear at 2:31 PM on December 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:31 PM on December 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Why should Texas be permitted to deprive same-sex couples of the benefits provided to opposite-sex couples? Because the state has an “interest in encouraging procreation.” Devine speculates that “offering certain benefits to opposite-sex couples would encourage procreation within marriage.
Obviously this guy is crazy pants, but I guess this means the state could start demanding straight couples to start taking fertility tests to determine whether or not benefits would be going to waste. And of course, post-menopausal couples wouldnt be eligible for benefits (thus further devaluing older straight women in society).
posted by flamk at 5:03 PM on December 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Obviously this guy is crazy pants, but I guess this means the state could start demanding straight couples to start taking fertility tests to determine whether or not benefits would be going to waste. And of course, post-menopausal couples wouldnt be eligible for benefits (thus further devaluing older straight women in society).
posted by flamk at 5:03 PM on December 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I grew up in Houston and I've been protesting against (and voting against) John Devine about as long as I've been doing activist work for (and voting for) reproductive rights, which is to say since the early 90s. We have ten more years of that jackass before he's forced out on retirement age and I hope I live long enough to see it.
If the (Texas) Supreme Court lets Cox have her abortion and she has it in Texas, any doctor and facility involved are going to be prosecuted. Ken Paxton and his cronies are only concerned about the legal aspect, specifically the precedent in this case and what its outcome means for the larger case the TSC has with the women suing it for the irreparable harms they took when they weren't allowed to terminate pregnancies like Cox's.
What will happen to Cox or other women carrying dead or dying fetuses doesn't matter to Paxton. He cares about power and revenge (and if you don't know about that, read some of the Texas Tribune's articles about the fallout of his impeachment trial earlier this year; it's not as horrifying as this but dude's crooked AF and he threatened the Texas Senate into acquitting him) and letting women have abortions even if medically necessary is, to him, an assault on his legal power. He will climb over Cox's dying body to wrap his fingers around the power he sees in radical anti-abortion politics.
I despise Ken Paxton and everything he stands for and it appalls me that anyone votes for him, never mind enough people to keep him in office. It's one of the long outcomes of the moral rot of Jim Crow and I despair of Texas ever overcoming this original sin.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:04 PM on December 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
If the (Texas) Supreme Court lets Cox have her abortion and she has it in Texas, any doctor and facility involved are going to be prosecuted. Ken Paxton and his cronies are only concerned about the legal aspect, specifically the precedent in this case and what its outcome means for the larger case the TSC has with the women suing it for the irreparable harms they took when they weren't allowed to terminate pregnancies like Cox's.
What will happen to Cox or other women carrying dead or dying fetuses doesn't matter to Paxton. He cares about power and revenge (and if you don't know about that, read some of the Texas Tribune's articles about the fallout of his impeachment trial earlier this year; it's not as horrifying as this but dude's crooked AF and he threatened the Texas Senate into acquitting him) and letting women have abortions even if medically necessary is, to him, an assault on his legal power. He will climb over Cox's dying body to wrap his fingers around the power he sees in radical anti-abortion politics.
I despise Ken Paxton and everything he stands for and it appalls me that anyone votes for him, never mind enough people to keep him in office. It's one of the long outcomes of the moral rot of Jim Crow and I despair of Texas ever overcoming this original sin.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:04 PM on December 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
Texas woman who sued for abortion now leaving state for care
This law is essentially impossible to challenge. You can't sue if you're not pregnant. If you do sue you can't rely on anything short of a final verdict from SCOTX, and they'll take their time. You can't rely on TROs, because if you do and they're stayed, the state will prosecute you, your doctor, and your hospital.
And this is someone who arguably had a right under the law to an abortion.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:43 AM on December 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
This law is essentially impossible to challenge. You can't sue if you're not pregnant. If you do sue you can't rely on anything short of a final verdict from SCOTX, and they'll take their time. You can't rely on TROs, because if you do and they're stayed, the state will prosecute you, your doctor, and your hospital.
And this is someone who arguably had a right under the law to an abortion.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:43 AM on December 11, 2023 [18 favorites]
And I am going to point upthread one last time to remind folks that this last-ditch remedy -- leaving the state of Texas to get necessary healthcare in a less pathological location -- is precisely what people like Mark Lee Dickson and Jonathan Mitchell are actively working to criminalize.
In their ideal world, Kate's home would have been fenced in by communities declaring themselves "sanctuary cities for the unborn" and prohibiting the usage of their public roads for transporting someone to an abortion happening anywhere. A Concerned Citizen(tm) could have watched her home, tipped local police off when she was on the move, and law enforcement could have stopped the car at the state line and subjected the driver and anyone else who "helped any pregnant woman cross state lines to end her pregnancy, lended her a ride, provided funding, or another form of support" to criminal charges.
And in Dickson's mind, the mother would not be exempt from "abortion trafficking" ordinances because "the fetus is always taken against its will."
Unconstitutional on its face? Of course it is. But their response is "go ahead, take us to court." Unenforceable in practical terms? Sure, unless you're the unlucky one they decide to make an example of, to make thousands of others think twice about trying it. Un-American? Yep, that's precisely what they think you are, if you are not loudly supportive of their zealot tribe.
When next you have the opportunity, vote for women -- not against them.
posted by delfin at 2:39 PM on December 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
In their ideal world, Kate's home would have been fenced in by communities declaring themselves "sanctuary cities for the unborn" and prohibiting the usage of their public roads for transporting someone to an abortion happening anywhere. A Concerned Citizen(tm) could have watched her home, tipped local police off when she was on the move, and law enforcement could have stopped the car at the state line and subjected the driver and anyone else who "helped any pregnant woman cross state lines to end her pregnancy, lended her a ride, provided funding, or another form of support" to criminal charges.
And in Dickson's mind, the mother would not be exempt from "abortion trafficking" ordinances because "the fetus is always taken against its will."
Unconstitutional on its face? Of course it is. But their response is "go ahead, take us to court." Unenforceable in practical terms? Sure, unless you're the unlucky one they decide to make an example of, to make thousands of others think twice about trying it. Un-American? Yep, that's precisely what they think you are, if you are not loudly supportive of their zealot tribe.
When next you have the opportunity, vote for women -- not against them.
posted by delfin at 2:39 PM on December 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Texas Supreme Court Rules Against Woman Who Sought Court-Approved Abortion should be a gift link. Per the article, they essentially did not believe her life had been proven to be at risk.
"Lawyers for Mr. Paxton’s office argued that the standard for determining what constitutes a serious threat was clear: a doctor’s “reasonable medical judgment” that a pregnancy posed such a risk; they said Ms. Cox did not meet that threshold.
The court agreed with the state, finding that the “good faith” standard had been applied by the lower court in error and that the correct standard, under the law, is a “reasonable medical judgment.” It asked the Texas Medical Board “to provide guidance in response to any confusion that currently prevails.”
“Judges do not have the authority to expand the statutory exception to reach abortions that do not fall within its text under the guise of interpreting it,” the Supreme Court found.
“Our ruling today does not block a lifesaving abortion in this very case if a physician determines that one is needed under the appropriate legal standard, using reasonable medical judgment,” the court added. “If Ms. Cox’s circumstances are, or have become, those that satisfy the statutory exception, no court order is needed.”
posted by beaning at 4:56 PM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Lawyers for Mr. Paxton’s office argued that the standard for determining what constitutes a serious threat was clear: a doctor’s “reasonable medical judgment” that a pregnancy posed such a risk; they said Ms. Cox did not meet that threshold.
The court agreed with the state, finding that the “good faith” standard had been applied by the lower court in error and that the correct standard, under the law, is a “reasonable medical judgment.” It asked the Texas Medical Board “to provide guidance in response to any confusion that currently prevails.”
“Judges do not have the authority to expand the statutory exception to reach abortions that do not fall within its text under the guise of interpreting it,” the Supreme Court found.
“Our ruling today does not block a lifesaving abortion in this very case if a physician determines that one is needed under the appropriate legal standard, using reasonable medical judgment,” the court added. “If Ms. Cox’s circumstances are, or have become, those that satisfy the statutory exception, no court order is needed.”
posted by beaning at 4:56 PM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Remember in November what Texas did here today.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:38 PM on December 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:38 PM on December 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
I am horrified but not surprised. Any safe and reliable path for a person to obtain an abortion will be used, so those in power here will resist any attempt to establish a reliable path or roadmap or standards. No matter the human cost.
My thanks to Ms. Cox for this endeavor, and best wishes for her recovery and her health. My thanks also to her doctors - in Texas and out of state - and to her attorneys.
posted by mersen at 7:16 PM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
My thanks to Ms. Cox for this endeavor, and best wishes for her recovery and her health. My thanks also to her doctors - in Texas and out of state - and to her attorneys.
posted by mersen at 7:16 PM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
She's announced she's leaving to get the medical care she needs.
I assume this is because Paxton said the hospitals and doctors would be liable for suits under TX law.
So, she's going to return to lawsuits under TX law?
Will any airline that she might fly also be sued?
What about any car manufacturer that might have made the car driving her out of state?
How about road construction companies who built roads that allowed her to drive out of state?
Maybe a shoe company that helped her to walk to the car?
I mean, I haven't done a close read of TX SB 8 but it's possible that this could be used as such a harassment mechanism just from this one case that it causes the state to want to abandon it.
Have there been other SB 8 lawsuits brought so far?
Such an interesting situation. And I hope she gets the medical care she needs and deserves.
posted by hippybear at 7:33 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I assume this is because Paxton said the hospitals and doctors would be liable for suits under TX law.
So, she's going to return to lawsuits under TX law?
Will any airline that she might fly also be sued?
What about any car manufacturer that might have made the car driving her out of state?
How about road construction companies who built roads that allowed her to drive out of state?
Maybe a shoe company that helped her to walk to the car?
I mean, I haven't done a close read of TX SB 8 but it's possible that this could be used as such a harassment mechanism just from this one case that it causes the state to want to abandon it.
Have there been other SB 8 lawsuits brought so far?
Such an interesting situation. And I hope she gets the medical care she needs and deserves.
posted by hippybear at 7:33 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
This isn't a law school hypo.
Texas doesn't currently have that kind of prohibition.
Once again:
Justice Department Files Statement of Interest in Case on Right to Travel to Access Legal Abortions
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:13 PM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Texas doesn't currently have that kind of prohibition.
Once again:
Justice Department Files Statement of Interest in Case on Right to Travel to Access Legal Abortions
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:13 PM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Considering a large part of the reason for the colonies to unite as a single unit instead of trying to survive each individually is that they were charging tariffs for travel along rivers and other barriers to free travel of goods, I don't think any kind of interstate travel ban is possible, as outlined in that above article.
But that has nothing to do with the law in Texas which allows private citizens to sue anyone who might have aided and abetted the execution of an abortion, which involves anyone who might have helped that person get out of state.
posted by hippybear at 8:19 PM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
But that has nothing to do with the law in Texas which allows private citizens to sue anyone who might have aided and abetted the execution of an abortion, which involves anyone who might have helped that person get out of state.
posted by hippybear at 8:19 PM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Do you also want to have a discussion of whether Nike is aiding and abetting.....any crime in which someone is wearing shoes?
Treat this with the seriousness it deserves. Socratic layups and references to the Framers aren't going to help anyone under the jurisdiction of the Texas Supreme Court.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:22 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Treat this with the seriousness it deserves. Socratic layups and references to the Framers aren't going to help anyone under the jurisdiction of the Texas Supreme Court.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:22 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
No, but the way this law is written is utterly rotten and it can and will devolve into this level of bullshit because it isn't a good, serious law.
I'm being utterly serious when I suggest any and all of these lawsuits could be brought under this law. And yes, maybe even Nike. IT IS A SHIT LAW AND IS SHIT WRITTEN.
That's the problem. The law was written to be punitive but they weren't truly serious minded when they wrote it because they were being dogmatic when they wrote it so it will end up being shitted upon in court.
And anyone who wants to destroy this law in court will be bringing all these exact lawsuits. Because a shit law needs to be drowned in its own shit.
posted by hippybear at 8:31 PM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm being utterly serious when I suggest any and all of these lawsuits could be brought under this law. And yes, maybe even Nike. IT IS A SHIT LAW AND IS SHIT WRITTEN.
That's the problem. The law was written to be punitive but they weren't truly serious minded when they wrote it because they were being dogmatic when they wrote it so it will end up being shitted upon in court.
And anyone who wants to destroy this law in court will be bringing all these exact lawsuits. Because a shit law needs to be drowned in its own shit.
posted by hippybear at 8:31 PM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
hippybear I think you are being wildlly overoptimistic in your assumption that the Trump Supreme Court and its solid majority of hardline theocratic Catholics will rule against laws barring interstate travel for abortion.
They don't have a judicial philosophy, they don't care about the actual law, they have a set of ideological objectives and find or make up any legal arguments necessary to achieve those ideological objecties.
I mean, JFC, Alito literally cited a fucking 17th century WITCH HUNTER as part of his justification for overturning Roe. Do you seiously think those people will say "hmm, well, historically 'Murca has been founded on free travel between states so nope, I guss you babykilling satanic evildoers are free to do as you please!"
Shit man, more likely they'll rule that based on the fact that interstate travel is possible the laws prohibiting abortion in one state mean it must be prohibited nationwide so as to avoid that state's precious baby saving laws from being circumvented.
And yes, I'm aware that in Dobbs they explicitly said it was fine because interstate travel. Why should they give a shit what they wrote to justify that decision?
Again and again we come back to that essential realization Trump had about power. The question isn't "what are they alowed to do" the question is "who's going to stop them"
And we know the answer to that: no one.
posted by sotonohito at 6:52 AM on December 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
They don't have a judicial philosophy, they don't care about the actual law, they have a set of ideological objectives and find or make up any legal arguments necessary to achieve those ideological objecties.
I mean, JFC, Alito literally cited a fucking 17th century WITCH HUNTER as part of his justification for overturning Roe. Do you seiously think those people will say "hmm, well, historically 'Murca has been founded on free travel between states so nope, I guss you babykilling satanic evildoers are free to do as you please!"
Shit man, more likely they'll rule that based on the fact that interstate travel is possible the laws prohibiting abortion in one state mean it must be prohibited nationwide so as to avoid that state's precious baby saving laws from being circumvented.
And yes, I'm aware that in Dobbs they explicitly said it was fine because interstate travel. Why should they give a shit what they wrote to justify that decision?
Again and again we come back to that essential realization Trump had about power. The question isn't "what are they alowed to do" the question is "who's going to stop them"
And we know the answer to that: no one.
posted by sotonohito at 6:52 AM on December 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
There is a difference under the law between prohibiting travel, literally setting up a Berlin Wall around the borders and subjecting all travelers to inspection and potential rejection, and requiring that residents of a state abide by the state's laws while they are in the state and even while traveling elsewhere. It would seem black-and-white, but there are uncomfortable gray margins that might be exploited by unscrupulous parties.
For instance, I am a Pennsylvanian. My state believes that if I drive down into Delaware and purchase goods, and the seller does not charge me PA Sales Tax (naturally, as the sale did not take place in PA), I owe Pennsylvania the amount of tax that they would've charged and should voluntarily report all such purchases come April 15th. (Has any ordinary citizen ever done this? Not to my knowledge, but it is a law on the books.) They will station undercover PA police at just-over-the-border liquor stores on occasion, so that if they witness me loading lots of booze into a car trunk with PA plates, they can radio ahead to have me stopped at the PA border and fined for not ordering it through the PA system and giving them their cut.
Blog post discussing potential loopholes to be considered.
From the Texas Tribune story I referenced previously, the author of cookie-cutter transportation-regulating ordinances argues:
Asked about the constitutionality of his ordinances, Dickson cites the Mann Act, a federal law from 1910 that makes it illegal to transport “any woman or girl for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery, or for any other immoral purpose.” If the Mann Act is constitutional, he says, so is this.
Idaho's currently-paused-while-lawsuits-percolate attempt, as another example, does not prohibit taking a pregnant minor out of state for abortion purposes in and of itself -- but it does prohibit and criminalize the portion of the trip that would take place in Idaho, on the way to the border, just as Texas towns are trying to prohibit the use of their public roads for "abortion trafficking." The constitutionality of the former is being challenged currently.
And therein lies the rub. In any reasonable society, we would have some faith that judges at various levels (including SCOTUS) would come to rational decisions regarding Constitutionality and statutes that conflict with each other and issues of jurisdiction and civil rights, and that what would seem obvious would hold up. But we don't live in one of those any more, and there is some doubt that we ever have.
posted by delfin at 7:56 AM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
For instance, I am a Pennsylvanian. My state believes that if I drive down into Delaware and purchase goods, and the seller does not charge me PA Sales Tax (naturally, as the sale did not take place in PA), I owe Pennsylvania the amount of tax that they would've charged and should voluntarily report all such purchases come April 15th. (Has any ordinary citizen ever done this? Not to my knowledge, but it is a law on the books.) They will station undercover PA police at just-over-the-border liquor stores on occasion, so that if they witness me loading lots of booze into a car trunk with PA plates, they can radio ahead to have me stopped at the PA border and fined for not ordering it through the PA system and giving them their cut.
Blog post discussing potential loopholes to be considered.
From the Texas Tribune story I referenced previously, the author of cookie-cutter transportation-regulating ordinances argues:
Asked about the constitutionality of his ordinances, Dickson cites the Mann Act, a federal law from 1910 that makes it illegal to transport “any woman or girl for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery, or for any other immoral purpose.” If the Mann Act is constitutional, he says, so is this.
Idaho's currently-paused-while-lawsuits-percolate attempt, as another example, does not prohibit taking a pregnant minor out of state for abortion purposes in and of itself -- but it does prohibit and criminalize the portion of the trip that would take place in Idaho, on the way to the border, just as Texas towns are trying to prohibit the use of their public roads for "abortion trafficking." The constitutionality of the former is being challenged currently.
And therein lies the rub. In any reasonable society, we would have some faith that judges at various levels (including SCOTUS) would come to rational decisions regarding Constitutionality and statutes that conflict with each other and issues of jurisdiction and civil rights, and that what would seem obvious would hold up. But we don't live in one of those any more, and there is some doubt that we ever have.
posted by delfin at 7:56 AM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
This seems to really have hit the mainstream media within the last 24 hours, and that is obviously a good thing. Lots of outraged people out there. I hope this will be what kills the Republican Party. But it makes me think about something. I've mentioned elsewhere on the blue that my gran really didn't want me to ever get pregnant, and while I was pregnant with my number one, she was terrified every single minute that something would go wrong. And then something did go a tiny bit wrong, and she totally panicked, while I felt safe and protected.
Only now I understand that she was thinking from the point of view of where some states in the US are today, where one couldn't even get an abortion for medical reasons. I know she had one just before I was born, using her network of doctors, and that might be why she somehow irrationally associated me with the danger and not my mother, aunt or many cousins. She loved all the babies.
I can't even imagine to be afraid of being pregnant, yet it is totally reasonable for many American women, for so many reasons, not just abortion bans.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of the money I donate goes to maternal care in war zones and underdeveloped countries. I'm well aware that the US isn't the worst place to be a woman. But I feel it should be among the very best.
posted by mumimor at 2:08 PM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Only now I understand that she was thinking from the point of view of where some states in the US are today, where one couldn't even get an abortion for medical reasons. I know she had one just before I was born, using her network of doctors, and that might be why she somehow irrationally associated me with the danger and not my mother, aunt or many cousins. She loved all the babies.
I can't even imagine to be afraid of being pregnant, yet it is totally reasonable for many American women, for so many reasons, not just abortion bans.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of the money I donate goes to maternal care in war zones and underdeveloped countries. I'm well aware that the US isn't the worst place to be a woman. But I feel it should be among the very best.
posted by mumimor at 2:08 PM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm being utterly serious when I suggest any and all of these lawsuits could be brought under this law.
Texan with a long-time interest in reproductive rights here. Hippybear is right. I'm waiting to see who gets sued out of this Cox case; it's one of the reasons her lawyers have been so careful about saying where she went.
It's really funny (in a black humor way, not a ha-ha way): my late mother used to talk about when she moved from Dallas to Houston as a young married woman. One of the first things she learned at a party was who did back-alley abortions. This would have been in the 1950s and things were better then, because a woman like Kate Cox could at least have gotten an (illegal if nothing else) abortion in Texas then and now, she can't.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:20 PM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Texan with a long-time interest in reproductive rights here. Hippybear is right. I'm waiting to see who gets sued out of this Cox case; it's one of the reasons her lawyers have been so careful about saying where she went.
It's really funny (in a black humor way, not a ha-ha way): my late mother used to talk about when she moved from Dallas to Houston as a young married woman. One of the first things she learned at a party was who did back-alley abortions. This would have been in the 1950s and things were better then, because a woman like Kate Cox could at least have gotten an (illegal if nothing else) abortion in Texas then and now, she can't.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:20 PM on December 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
It turns out that today is the 50th anniversary of abortion rights here in Denmark. My daughter is going to an event later tonight. When yours is the first country to create any new freedom, you are going to have a lot of weird leftovers from that time period, like that here there is a board of experts who determine wether you can have an abortion past the first trimester. They almost always vote yes, of course, because anyone who wants an abortion after the first trimester is desperate for some reason. It is not a good experience. Wether that reason is medical or social seems to be moot.
It's interesting that a political party was founded to protest abortion rights back then, they never gained many votes, but they did have a bit of influence, decades ago. Now, they are "celebrating" the anniversary by giving up their anti-abortion stance.
I think during the last 50 years, we've all learnt more about the science, such as it is normal to have several miscarriages during your life, most of which you hardly register. Life does not begin at conception, as they thought back then. Conception puts out a suggestion. Then a lot of pieces have to fall into place for an actual live baby to be born. And then an other whole lot of pieces are needed for that baby to survive the first year.
posted by mumimor at 6:50 AM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's interesting that a political party was founded to protest abortion rights back then, they never gained many votes, but they did have a bit of influence, decades ago. Now, they are "celebrating" the anniversary by giving up their anti-abortion stance.
I think during the last 50 years, we've all learnt more about the science, such as it is normal to have several miscarriages during your life, most of which you hardly register. Life does not begin at conception, as they thought back then. Conception puts out a suggestion. Then a lot of pieces have to fall into place for an actual live baby to be born. And then an other whole lot of pieces are needed for that baby to survive the first year.
posted by mumimor at 6:50 AM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
WI woman describes grief after being forced to flee for a termination for a devastating diagnosis from ABC News
posted by mumimor at 3:47 AM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 3:47 AM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
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