a title!
November 26, 2002 1:14 PM Subscribe
"It is binding on all Muslims wherever they are, to consider the killing of the writer as a religious duty" Muslim leaders call for the head of the author who wrote that Mohammed would look for a wife among the contestants and subsequently sparked huge riots, killing 200 people in Nigeria.
This post was deleted for the following reason:
And the weapons inspectors are in Baghdad now! And the Osbournes is entering its second season! The Russians can't find that satellite, and the gender gap on AIDS has closed. Turning now to sports . . .
posted by hackly_fracture at 1:24 PM on November 26, 2002
posted by hackly_fracture at 1:24 PM on November 26, 2002
And in our final story tonight, eas98 still doesn't like Muslims.
posted by hackly_fracture at 1:25 PM on November 26, 2002
posted by hackly_fracture at 1:25 PM on November 26, 2002
I think the Prophet would love Metafilter.
posted by RylandDotNet at 1:29 PM on November 26, 2002
posted by RylandDotNet at 1:29 PM on November 26, 2002
eas98 seems to not only have a problem with muslims but also seems to have no problem judging a BILLION people by the actions of a few freaky zealots, gee good thing people don't do that in regards to Christians or Americans in other parts of the world, next thing you know they'll start calling us evil and trying to kill us! I sure hop my entire belief system can be judged by the actions and statements of some violence inciting individuals like Jerry Fallwell!
posted by Pollomacho at 1:32 PM on November 26, 2002
posted by Pollomacho at 1:32 PM on November 26, 2002
Go comb the hair on your hairy troll toes, eas98.
Zamfara's deputy governor Mamuda Aliyu Shinkafi told religious leaders in the state capital, Gusau: "Like Salman Rushdie, the blood of Isioma Daniel can be shed."
You'd think Mamuda Aliyu Shinkafi wouldn't want to invoke the name of Salman Rushdie here. The only blood Rushdie has shed would have come from any self-inflicted papercuts sustained as he continued to write, albeit in hiding, and eventually the fatwa was rescinded.
How dreadful for Daniel, but at least the Nigerian government is standing behind her, and they won't be the only ones. If the sheer absurdity of this doesn't make some fundamentalist, militant Muslims rethink their positions on this, nothing will.
posted by orange swan at 1:38 PM on November 26, 2002
Zamfara's deputy governor Mamuda Aliyu Shinkafi told religious leaders in the state capital, Gusau: "Like Salman Rushdie, the blood of Isioma Daniel can be shed."
You'd think Mamuda Aliyu Shinkafi wouldn't want to invoke the name of Salman Rushdie here. The only blood Rushdie has shed would have come from any self-inflicted papercuts sustained as he continued to write, albeit in hiding, and eventually the fatwa was rescinded.
How dreadful for Daniel, but at least the Nigerian government is standing behind her, and they won't be the only ones. If the sheer absurdity of this doesn't make some fundamentalist, militant Muslims rethink their positions on this, nothing will.
posted by orange swan at 1:38 PM on November 26, 2002
eas98 still doesn't like Muslims.
That's so go-with-the-crowd. Almost all of America dislikes Muslims. Except for American Muslims, of course, and some of them who have poor self-esteem don't like themselves. Personally, I don't like Miss Piggy, I don't like Dale Earnhardt (or his ghost, before you ask), I don't like TV movies based on books by Danielle Steel or Harold Robbins, I don't like that "Who Let The Dogs Out?" song, and I have expanded my dislike of pickup trucks to include SUVs and all vehicles that get less than 20MPG. Oh, and Jello--I hate the damned stuff.
But disliking Muslims is passe, and puts you in bad company...
posted by Shane at 1:42 PM on November 26, 2002
That's so go-with-the-crowd. Almost all of America dislikes Muslims. Except for American Muslims, of course, and some of them who have poor self-esteem don't like themselves. Personally, I don't like Miss Piggy, I don't like Dale Earnhardt (or his ghost, before you ask), I don't like TV movies based on books by Danielle Steel or Harold Robbins, I don't like that "Who Let The Dogs Out?" song, and I have expanded my dislike of pickup trucks to include SUVs and all vehicles that get less than 20MPG. Oh, and Jello--I hate the damned stuff.
But disliking Muslims is passe, and puts you in bad company...
posted by Shane at 1:42 PM on November 26, 2002
I think that Daniel should feel fortunate. One little beauty pageant fluff piece, and this 20-something fashion reporter is being compared to Salmon Rushdie!
posted by mikrophon at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2002
posted by mikrophon at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2002
"...but also seems to have no problem judging a BILLION people by the actions of a few freaky zealots..."
Well, to be fair, we're not talking about "a few freaky zealots." From the article: "The northern Nigerian state of Zamfara endorsed an Islamic judgement calling on Muslims to kill the fashion writer Isioma Daniel..."
posted by pardonyou? at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2002
Well, to be fair, we're not talking about "a few freaky zealots." From the article: "The northern Nigerian state of Zamfara endorsed an Islamic judgement calling on Muslims to kill the fashion writer Isioma Daniel..."
posted by pardonyou? at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2002
Jesus people, you are all quick to jump on me, but I only call 'em like I see 'em.
To this day, I have not had any reason to believe otherwise. Day after day, it's another story about how the Muslims hate us, hate women, hate freedom, etc.
Show me a country of muslims that does not largely consist of zealots looking forward to another attack on American interests.
All I do is point out what should start becoming obvious to the rest of you, and I get labelled a troll.
Please..
posted by eas98 at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2002
To this day, I have not had any reason to believe otherwise. Day after day, it's another story about how the Muslims hate us, hate women, hate freedom, etc.
Show me a country of muslims that does not largely consist of zealots looking forward to another attack on American interests.
All I do is point out what should start becoming obvious to the rest of you, and I get labelled a troll.
Please..
posted by eas98 at 1:46 PM on November 26, 2002
"Zamfara's deputy governor Mamuda Aliyu Shinkafi told religious leaders in the state capital, Gusau: 'Like Salman Rushdie, the blood of Isioma Daniel can be shed.'"
a) Jerry Fallwell has not told Christians it is their duty to go kill people.
b) This came from government officials and multiple mainstream religious leaders. Not isolated fanatics.
c) Show me where Islamic leaders are saying people who murder blasphemers will go to hell.
d) This isn't an isolated incident.
I have no idea why Moslems are so motivated to support the murder of blasphemers. Are Moslems saying the rioters are bad Moslems? Are they condemning the call to kill the author? Sure doesn't seem that way to me.
Until Moslem leaders are willing to condemn statements like the one above, I have to assume Islam is a religion that supports violence and murder.
Christianity had a history of such things, but it acknowledges this was wrong and now condemns such acts.
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:51 PM on November 26, 2002
a) Jerry Fallwell has not told Christians it is their duty to go kill people.
b) This came from government officials and multiple mainstream religious leaders. Not isolated fanatics.
c) Show me where Islamic leaders are saying people who murder blasphemers will go to hell.
d) This isn't an isolated incident.
I have no idea why Moslems are so motivated to support the murder of blasphemers. Are Moslems saying the rioters are bad Moslems? Are they condemning the call to kill the author? Sure doesn't seem that way to me.
Until Moslem leaders are willing to condemn statements like the one above, I have to assume Islam is a religion that supports violence and murder.
Christianity had a history of such things, but it acknowledges this was wrong and now condemns such acts.
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:51 PM on November 26, 2002
"a vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving individuals who respect others' beliefs."
you know, without a link that is hard to back up...
bring the flame...
posted by Big_B at 1:51 PM on November 26, 2002
you know, without a link that is hard to back up...
bring the flame...
posted by Big_B at 1:51 PM on November 26, 2002
Show me a country of muslims that does not largely consist of zealots looking forward to another attack on American interests.
*barfs*
posted by matteo at 1:56 PM on November 26, 2002
*barfs*
posted by matteo at 1:56 PM on November 26, 2002
Show me a country of muslims that does not largely consist of zealots looking forward to another attack on American interests.
Turkey.
And I'm leaving this thread already.
posted by ginz at 1:56 PM on November 26, 2002
Turkey.
And I'm leaving this thread already.
posted by ginz at 1:56 PM on November 26, 2002
All I do is point out what should start becoming obvious to the rest of you, and I get labelled a troll.
dude! if you follow the news in general, by your logic, you'd come to the conlcusion that all humans everywhere are bad, because most of the news out there is bad.
obviously the vast majority of muslims are like anyone else, and obviously you don't hear about that in the news, because why would anyone be interested in people going about their lives being normal and ordinary? it's just accepted because it's true.
i can't believe this needs to be explained to you. good grief.
do you actually know any muslims? the way you're carrying on and drawing incredibly broad conclusions based on your apparently very narrow purview makes me think you don't have the sense -- or the education, for that matter -- that one encounters in first graders.
posted by donkeyschlong at 1:58 PM on November 26, 2002
dude! if you follow the news in general, by your logic, you'd come to the conlcusion that all humans everywhere are bad, because most of the news out there is bad.
obviously the vast majority of muslims are like anyone else, and obviously you don't hear about that in the news, because why would anyone be interested in people going about their lives being normal and ordinary? it's just accepted because it's true.
i can't believe this needs to be explained to you. good grief.
do you actually know any muslims? the way you're carrying on and drawing incredibly broad conclusions based on your apparently very narrow purview makes me think you don't have the sense -- or the education, for that matter -- that one encounters in first graders.
posted by donkeyschlong at 1:58 PM on November 26, 2002
Oh, and meanwhile -- "Nigerian Government rejects 'fatwa'".
posted by donkeyschlong at 2:06 PM on November 26, 2002
posted by donkeyschlong at 2:06 PM on November 26, 2002
Day after day, it's another story about how the Muslims hate us, hate women, hate freedom, etc.
Personally, I never understood the "hate feedom" thing. "Freedom Was Attacked." I don't get it. I mean, were a bunch of Muslims sitting around at their Friday poker night and suddenly one said,
"You know, I hate Freedom."
*nods from all present*
"I really hate Freedom, and especially Amercian Freedom."
*mutterings of agreement all around*
"I've got it! Why don't we fly a couple planes into the World Trade Center! Then Freedom will be crushed and the Americans will no longer be Free! They will be UnFree from then on!"
*vigorous assent from all: "Right on!" & "Let's go!" & "Hey, let's all die in the process, yay!"*
Somehow I think it had more to do with the $3bil/yr of American money that used to help Israel crush the Plaestinians. Somehow I think that Muslims think that the average American joe KNOWS and SUPPORTS what his gov't's foreign policy is doing (although most Americans have to stop to think to remember who is vice-president much less what the gov't is doing in far away places).
But "they hate Freedom"? I just don't buy it. It's a sick political spin.
posted by Shane at 2:07 PM on November 26, 2002
Personally, I never understood the "hate feedom" thing. "Freedom Was Attacked." I don't get it. I mean, were a bunch of Muslims sitting around at their Friday poker night and suddenly one said,
"You know, I hate Freedom."
*nods from all present*
"I really hate Freedom, and especially Amercian Freedom."
*mutterings of agreement all around*
"I've got it! Why don't we fly a couple planes into the World Trade Center! Then Freedom will be crushed and the Americans will no longer be Free! They will be UnFree from then on!"
*vigorous assent from all: "Right on!" & "Let's go!" & "Hey, let's all die in the process, yay!"*
Somehow I think it had more to do with the $3bil/yr of American money that used to help Israel crush the Plaestinians. Somehow I think that Muslims think that the average American joe KNOWS and SUPPORTS what his gov't's foreign policy is doing (although most Americans have to stop to think to remember who is vice-president much less what the gov't is doing in far away places).
But "they hate Freedom"? I just don't buy it. It's a sick political spin.
posted by Shane at 2:07 PM on November 26, 2002
Muslim leaders CONSTANTLY condemn statements like the ones you've quoted. Muslim leaders CONSTANTLY condemn murderous barbarism. Just because our media with it "if it bleeds, it leads" attitude play only the negative steriotypes doesn't mean it is a majority view! Do you think ALL black people think like Louis Farrakan, or all Christians condemn gays to hell and pestilence like Jerry Fallwell does every time he's quoted in the media? No, that would be foolish, but you seem to find no problems claiming that MUSLIMS in general are all bomb-strapped Ossama lovers. Have you read ANYTHING about the teachings of the Koran to base your statements on?
Besides that, are you saying that we are any better? Boy Christian westerners are such great people!
posted by Pollomacho at 2:12 PM on November 26, 2002
Besides that, are you saying that we are any better? Boy Christian westerners are such great people!
posted by Pollomacho at 2:12 PM on November 26, 2002
(Oh, My Stars and Garters and Typo's! It does no good to be excitable...)
posted by Shane at 2:12 PM on November 26, 2002
posted by Shane at 2:12 PM on November 26, 2002
"Nigerian Government rejects 'fatwa'"
Exactly. That's the point. Everyone is rejecting it except for the religious leaders. You reject it. I reject it. Islam doesn't.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:12 PM on November 26, 2002
Exactly. That's the point. Everyone is rejecting it except for the religious leaders. You reject it. I reject it. Islam doesn't.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:12 PM on November 26, 2002
And what "American interest" does this poor writer represent, anyway, eas98?
posted by hackly_fracture at 2:13 PM on November 26, 2002
posted by hackly_fracture at 2:13 PM on November 26, 2002
Turkey
The Turkish regime is holding on for its dear life due to it showing even the slightest support for the US.
obviously the vast majority of muslims are like anyone else
Obvious to who? That's wishful thinking and a dangerous assumption.
Muslim leaders CONSTANTLY condemn...
Now you're looking to politics for the truth? These leaders say whatever is convenient for their cause, whatever it may be. Right now, it's appeasing the US.
And what "American interest" does this poor writer represent
Fine, you got me, whatever. "Western interest" then, if you like.
You know, I do not direct insults to anybody here, yet that's all you people do on this board -- insult other people. If you don't agree with how I or anybody feels, that's fine, but you people get off on finding new ways to try to put somebody down. Sadly, you are the ignorants here.
posted by eas98 at 2:17 PM on November 26, 2002
The Turkish regime is holding on for its dear life due to it showing even the slightest support for the US.
obviously the vast majority of muslims are like anyone else
Obvious to who? That's wishful thinking and a dangerous assumption.
Muslim leaders CONSTANTLY condemn...
Now you're looking to politics for the truth? These leaders say whatever is convenient for their cause, whatever it may be. Right now, it's appeasing the US.
And what "American interest" does this poor writer represent
Fine, you got me, whatever. "Western interest" then, if you like.
You know, I do not direct insults to anybody here, yet that's all you people do on this board -- insult other people. If you don't agree with how I or anybody feels, that's fine, but you people get off on finding new ways to try to put somebody down. Sadly, you are the ignorants here.
posted by eas98 at 2:17 PM on November 26, 2002
Has anyone actually read the offending article? If anyone finds a translation of it will they please post a link or email it to me...
posted by mildred-pitt at 2:18 PM on November 26, 2002
posted by mildred-pitt at 2:18 PM on November 26, 2002
How can you say turkey isn't full of zealots?
Perhaps not the religious kind, and not nearly as bad as those in Iran, or these tosses, but still.
In any event, I really don't see how you can defend the claim that these are 'isolated incidents' Remember it was the Islamic-majority citizenry themselves who pushed to institute Sharia.
Lets also not forget that the Iranian revolution was, at the time, a popular movement as well.
As much as I don't like Christianity in general, I can't imagine a Christian ever getting angry enough to want to kill me for saying "Jesus would hit it". Perhaps at the height of catholic rule in the 1600s or something, but come on.
I've always found myself taking the Palestinian side during online arguments and stuff, but this is ridiculous. The idea, apparently popular, that people should be killed for saying something potentially offensive is insane.
posted by delmoi at 2:19 PM on November 26, 2002
Perhaps not the religious kind, and not nearly as bad as those in Iran, or these tosses, but still.
In any event, I really don't see how you can defend the claim that these are 'isolated incidents' Remember it was the Islamic-majority citizenry themselves who pushed to institute Sharia.
Lets also not forget that the Iranian revolution was, at the time, a popular movement as well.
As much as I don't like Christianity in general, I can't imagine a Christian ever getting angry enough to want to kill me for saying "Jesus would hit it". Perhaps at the height of catholic rule in the 1600s or something, but come on.
I've always found myself taking the Palestinian side during online arguments and stuff, but this is ridiculous. The idea, apparently popular, that people should be killed for saying something potentially offensive is insane.
posted by delmoi at 2:19 PM on November 26, 2002
y6y6y6: You reject it. I reject it. Islam does, too.
Rights, religious groups condemn Nigerian fatwa
"But religious experts around the world questioned the validity of the fatwa, saying it should not apply as the newspaper had apologised over the article."
posted by nickmark at 2:21 PM on November 26, 2002
Rights, religious groups condemn Nigerian fatwa
"But religious experts around the world questioned the validity of the fatwa, saying it should not apply as the newspaper had apologised over the article."
posted by nickmark at 2:21 PM on November 26, 2002
donkeyschlong: thank you for linking to the exact same story as I did. I guess my URL was for voting in the poll. Sorry, I guess all of you decided that the press wasn't to blame for the incident... but I think you would have agreed anyway :P
mildred-pitt: I think the original article was written in English, but I doubt it would be very interesting. As far as I can tell, people were only offended by a single quote, which has been widely repeated.
posted by delmoi at 2:23 PM on November 26, 2002
mildred-pitt: I think the original article was written in English, but I doubt it would be very interesting. As far as I can tell, people were only offended by a single quote, which has been widely repeated.
posted by delmoi at 2:23 PM on November 26, 2002
Exactly. That's the point. Everyone is rejecting it except for the religious leaders. You reject it. I reject it. Islam doesn't.
said religious leaders' warped interpretation isn't any more authoritative than jerry fallwel's assertion that gays and unwed mothers contributed to 9/11 -- and you can find as much in islam to reject violence as you can to embrace it -- as much as you can in christianity or judaism. frankly, religious extremism and violence is hardly nigeria's only ongoing apocalypse.
and all you common-sensible islam bashers -- when hindu extremists were butchering muslims by the bushel a few months back -- what, no outrage? maoist separatists recently committed a wave of attacks in said country as well? radio silence. and that's just random stuff off the top of my head. find out a few things about the world (bone up on Latin America, Greece, Ireland and Spain, for starters) before you start blaming every hiccup on those damn Mohammedans.
Lets also not forget that the Iranian revolution was, at the time, a popular movement as well.
so is this. nothing's black and white.
posted by donkeyschlong at 2:25 PM on November 26, 2002
said religious leaders' warped interpretation isn't any more authoritative than jerry fallwel's assertion that gays and unwed mothers contributed to 9/11 -- and you can find as much in islam to reject violence as you can to embrace it -- as much as you can in christianity or judaism. frankly, religious extremism and violence is hardly nigeria's only ongoing apocalypse.
and all you common-sensible islam bashers -- when hindu extremists were butchering muslims by the bushel a few months back -- what, no outrage? maoist separatists recently committed a wave of attacks in said country as well? radio silence. and that's just random stuff off the top of my head. find out a few things about the world (bone up on Latin America, Greece, Ireland and Spain, for starters) before you start blaming every hiccup on those damn Mohammedans.
Lets also not forget that the Iranian revolution was, at the time, a popular movement as well.
so is this. nothing's black and white.
posted by donkeyschlong at 2:25 PM on November 26, 2002
"you seem to find no problems claiming that MUSLIMS in general are all bomb-strapped Ossama lovers."
You are the only one who mentioned that. Where did you come up with that one? We're talking about the religious leaders who sent text messages to Moslems to incite a riot? Did you read that story? Try to keep up. We're talking about something that actually happened.
Moslem leaders actively incited a riot. Then rather than condemn the violence and murder they asked for more. Are you following the story? Religious leaders are calling for the author's murder. Hello?
" Have you read ANYTHING about the teachings of the Koran to base your statements on?"
I don't care what it says. The teaching can "peace" or "love" as every third word. What matters is the actions and the statements of people in charge. And the people in charge are calling for murder. What the Koran says isn't the issue. The issue is the murder in the name of Islam and the calls for more murder.
Please read the article. Or better yet, please point us to the article where Islamic leaders condemn the rioters and call them bad Moslems.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:26 PM on November 26, 2002
You are the only one who mentioned that. Where did you come up with that one? We're talking about the religious leaders who sent text messages to Moslems to incite a riot? Did you read that story? Try to keep up. We're talking about something that actually happened.
Moslem leaders actively incited a riot. Then rather than condemn the violence and murder they asked for more. Are you following the story? Religious leaders are calling for the author's murder. Hello?
" Have you read ANYTHING about the teachings of the Koran to base your statements on?"
I don't care what it says. The teaching can "peace" or "love" as every third word. What matters is the actions and the statements of people in charge. And the people in charge are calling for murder. What the Koran says isn't the issue. The issue is the murder in the name of Islam and the calls for more murder.
Please read the article. Or better yet, please point us to the article where Islamic leaders condemn the rioters and call them bad Moslems.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:26 PM on November 26, 2002
Shane, when people say "they hate freedom," I suspect they mean that they hate our freedoms, as Americans. And while you're right that they may not sit around saying, "I hate freedom, let's bomb America," I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that they do hate many of the freedoms that we take as being quintessentially American. From yesterday's thread on the purported Osama bin Laden letter, here are some of OBL's alleged criticisms of the western world. When I read this, I think, "yes, they do hate our freedom":
The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam… It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. (Freedom of religion?)
We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. (Separation of church and state?)
You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants.
You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom.
You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms.
You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly.
posted by pardonyou? at 2:26 PM on November 26, 2002
The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam… It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. (Freedom of religion?)
We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. (Separation of church and state?)
You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants.
You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom.
You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms.
You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly.
posted by pardonyou? at 2:26 PM on November 26, 2002
Sadly, you are the ignorants here.
It's true. I thought ignorant was only an adjective. I had to look it up to check.
posted by robself at 2:26 PM on November 26, 2002
It's true. I thought ignorant was only an adjective. I had to look it up to check.
posted by robself at 2:26 PM on November 26, 2002
Del Moi it seems that you and many others have difficulty separating religion from culture, ethnicity, location, nationality, etc. What do Palestinians have to do with Nigerians? More or less than Hutus and Tutsis?
The issue here in reality is not solely about Muslims and Christians but power and racial hatred. Nigeria, like many African nations, is a country of tribes-- and these tribes are often split by religion as well as tribal lines. What is happening there is not a bunch of Muslims going crazy (well, it is that, too) but a bunch of Muslims looking for reasons to go crazy in order to get more power over the scraps of poverty each tribe controls and assert their tribal and religious dominance.
What are the causes of ethno-religious violence? Is it something inherent in certain ethnicites or certain religions? I don't think so-- in the past 100 years alone, virtually every ethnic and religious group has shown themselves capable of brutality.
posted by cell divide at 2:32 PM on November 26, 2002
The issue here in reality is not solely about Muslims and Christians but power and racial hatred. Nigeria, like many African nations, is a country of tribes-- and these tribes are often split by religion as well as tribal lines. What is happening there is not a bunch of Muslims going crazy (well, it is that, too) but a bunch of Muslims looking for reasons to go crazy in order to get more power over the scraps of poverty each tribe controls and assert their tribal and religious dominance.
What are the causes of ethno-religious violence? Is it something inherent in certain ethnicites or certain religions? I don't think so-- in the past 100 years alone, virtually every ethnic and religious group has shown themselves capable of brutality.
posted by cell divide at 2:32 PM on November 26, 2002
Now you're looking to politics for the truth? These leaders say whatever is convenient for their cause, whatever it may be. Right now, it's appeasing the US.
Not exactly, I'm looking at RELIGIOUS LEADERS. Perhaps you forgot, Islam is a RELIGION! The first and last thing a muslim greets ANYONE with is "Peace be with you" Peace, yes Peace! and they MEAN it! You seem to be looking to zealot freaks to justify your hatred of a BILLION people! Read things about Islam other than what our crappy newspapers feed you and tell me if you still find it barbarous, there are MANY things about freedom and justice we can learn from them! Better yet, travel in a primarily muslim nation, you'll be far safer than a "rag head" in a red neck American town, I guarantee it!
posted by Pollomacho at 2:32 PM on November 26, 2002
Not exactly, I'm looking at RELIGIOUS LEADERS. Perhaps you forgot, Islam is a RELIGION! The first and last thing a muslim greets ANYONE with is "Peace be with you" Peace, yes Peace! and they MEAN it! You seem to be looking to zealot freaks to justify your hatred of a BILLION people! Read things about Islam other than what our crappy newspapers feed you and tell me if you still find it barbarous, there are MANY things about freedom and justice we can learn from them! Better yet, travel in a primarily muslim nation, you'll be far safer than a "rag head" in a red neck American town, I guarantee it!
posted by Pollomacho at 2:32 PM on November 26, 2002
Please mod "cell divide" up, he is the only person who has demonstrated any knowledge of Nigeria. The country's a complete mess and has been torn along ethnic/tribal lines for years (or so says my Nigerian friend).
eas98: I don't know all that many people from the Middle East, but the Sunni Muslim people I know from Malaysia and Indonesia are some of the nicest, most laid-back, funniest guys and girls I know. They cheerfully admit that their culture/religion back home has its problems and officially can be intolerant - for example in Indonesia, unmarried Muslim couples sometimes get arrested for holding hands - but they are about as far from being America-hating, AK47-toting zealots as you could imagine. It seems pretty unfair to lump people from fairly sophisticated nations together with terrorists from the most desperate countries. Is it too much to ask for a little bit of nuance when you're condemning a billion people?
If you're looking for countries full of ideological zealots who would love to see America go down, you might also take into account the self-hating left-liberals in Europe and the UK. Read a Guardian article which manages to criticise a beauty pageant for being anti-feminist while ignoring the enormity of stoning women to death. Or how about the consistent anti-Israel bias in BBC reporting?
posted by Bletch at 2:55 PM on November 26, 2002
eas98: I don't know all that many people from the Middle East, but the Sunni Muslim people I know from Malaysia and Indonesia are some of the nicest, most laid-back, funniest guys and girls I know. They cheerfully admit that their culture/religion back home has its problems and officially can be intolerant - for example in Indonesia, unmarried Muslim couples sometimes get arrested for holding hands - but they are about as far from being America-hating, AK47-toting zealots as you could imagine. It seems pretty unfair to lump people from fairly sophisticated nations together with terrorists from the most desperate countries. Is it too much to ask for a little bit of nuance when you're condemning a billion people?
If you're looking for countries full of ideological zealots who would love to see America go down, you might also take into account the self-hating left-liberals in Europe and the UK. Read a Guardian article which manages to criticise a beauty pageant for being anti-feminist while ignoring the enormity of stoning women to death. Or how about the consistent anti-Israel bias in BBC reporting?
posted by Bletch at 2:55 PM on November 26, 2002
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It must be true. All the evidence points to that.
Right?
posted by eas98 at 1:22 PM on November 26, 2002