Beanplating Porn

August 24, 2007 10:42 AM

Discovering Porn (On Your Boyfriend’s Computer) [SFW]
posted by BeerFilter (233 comments total)

In order to avoid that conversation, I'll just go ahead and make sure there's no way anything suspect will show up on my pc. Thanks.
posted by jsavimbi at 10:44 AM on August 24, 2007

Snooping on the bf's computer for "fireplace tools"? I smell some divine bullshit right there.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:50 AM on August 24, 2007 [6 favorites]

This is why all adults should be keeping their recipes on separate machines.
posted by DU at 10:51 AM on August 24, 2007

The Internet is for porn
posted by Nelson at 10:52 AM on August 24, 2007

She needs to have that New Yorker caption applied: "Christ, what an asshole."
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:53 AM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Er, The Internet is for porn. via Metafilter.
posted by Nelson at 10:53 AM on August 24, 2007

Judging by the tags (beanplate, overthink), did you really think this was a good post, the reading of which would enhance our lives in some small way?

Or is this more like LOLSTUPIDBLOG?

Just trying to understand.
posted by grouse at 10:54 AM on August 24, 2007 [3 favorites]

Discovering your girlfriend (has ben snooping around on your computer) [WTF]
posted by chasing at 10:55 AM on August 24, 2007

Wait, there are people who don't have their browser set to automatically clear history, etc. every time they close it?
posted by dersins at 10:55 AM on August 24, 2007 [5 favorites]

There are still corners of the internet dedicated to making women feel justified in their vicitimization complexes, revulsion by their own partners, and immovable stances on relationship politics. This seems to be one of them.

Strike One: Are you looking at gay sex with two men? (Let it be known, I have nothing against gay sex. My issue here is that if my boyfriend is struggling with his sexuality I would rather he do it outside a monogamous heterosexual relationship).

Strike Two: “Seriously? Threatened by a guy who watches two girls getting each other off with one hand on the laptop mouse and the other on his crotch? No way.”

Strike Three: I still cringe at the thought of those site names and the picture of the whole scenario. But who likes thinking about their monogamous partner in that light?

So, to sum up: Don't be bisexual, you're not threatening me, on the contrary, you're pitiful, and I find you disgusting but I can ignore it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:00 AM on August 24, 2007 [11 favorites]

Time for some perspective:

Common and mundane:
Guy looks at porn

Freaky Internet phenomenon:
Woman writes a long, detailed article describing all personal aspects of emotional and private conversation about guy looking at porn.
posted by Muddler at 11:00 AM on August 24, 2007 [40 favorites]

And this is why we should all clean our caches out at the end of the day.

It's wasn't porn that got him caught, it was a lack of tidyness.
posted by rhymer at 11:00 AM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

She was snooping and didn't like what she found, even though his interest in porn is a) legal and b) none of her business. Whee. His problem is her; he should ditch that bitch.
posted by davy at 11:01 AM on August 24, 2007

Come on. This is just crap blog farming from another hack pay-per-post blogger. More boring, inflammatory fluff that will get forwarded around and increase rankings to get the ad dollars. Just don't click.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:06 AM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's disturbing that after finding the porn she aks "are you unhappy, am I not enough, is this illegal, are you gay or are you violent"? That just seems so odd.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:07 AM on August 24, 2007

You know what I think?

I think Francis was just a little strapped for a good topic for this week's column, so she fleshed out a minor "From Real Life" thing that happened to her. (The "eye opener conversation with a female friend" thing is a dead giveaway.) I'm guessing she didn't care all that much to begin with.

Discovering your boyfriend enjoyment of pornography is like discovering your girlfriend's ability to pass gas. You knew it all along, but being a human you cannot resist going through the motions and stammer "O. My. Gawd.".
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:09 AM on August 24, 2007 [10 favorites]

I'm old skool. I've got boxes and boxes of the stuff on paper. None of that....Hey Kid! Stop all the downloadin'!

I don't know much about downloadin' porn but my old g-friends knew that we were'nt going to last forever. Besides... the porn was there waaaaaay before she was.
Have I lost the argument yet?
posted by doctorschlock at 11:09 AM on August 24, 2007

Did I miss the part of the article where she threw his clothes on the lawn and called his mom to tell her her kid is a pervert?

Because the part I read was about how this girl found her boyfriend's porn, felt weird, initiated a pretty non-judgmental conversation about it, and having talked about it, realized that this was no big deal and not something she needed to continue to worry about.

Clearly, we should take this BITCH out to the village gate and stone the hell out of her.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 11:09 AM on August 24, 2007 [25 favorites]

Hilarious, she finds some porn and instantly asks him if he is a bestiality loving pedo. Classic.
posted by Mr_Zero at 11:11 AM on August 24, 2007

Frankly, I'm more likely to share porn with my partner then hide it from him, in the way you would share a fantasy, so I would find all this a non-issue.

I think AV sums it up pretty well, except the "don't be bisexual" thing: I get the impression it's more of a "be honest" issue than a bisexuality issue. She doesn't want to be his beard, that's understandable. For the rest, she needs to chill.

Anything that takes four pages to tell the reader, "I've decided I'm okay with it" really says, "I'm not okay with this at all but I'm trying to come off like I am."
posted by misha at 11:12 AM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

Lighten up, Francis.
posted by jrossi4r at 11:13 AM on August 24, 2007 [9 favorites]

She says pretty clearly that she would rather he "struggle with his sexuality" outside their relationship. That means: "Figuring out you might be a bi/poly/furry? GTFO. We're done."

I hope there was more forgiveness and nuance to this confrontation, but the fact that she doesn't preference that aspect in her writing leads me to believe, as misha says, that she's not okay with it and she can't really admit it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:17 AM on August 24, 2007

Who is this woman? She sounds 17.
posted by Peter H at 11:18 AM on August 24, 2007

initiated a pretty non-judgmental conversation about it

'cept for the "are you an unsatisfied gay perv who's afraid of or not interested in me", you're right.

Clearly, we should take this BITCH out to the village gate and stone the hell out of her.

No, but a little mocking will do.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:19 AM on August 24, 2007 [5 favorites]

Safe for work? Yeah, because it's deadly dull. Are there really women still having these moments for the first time? If so, could we get more porn based on that?
posted by klangklangston at 11:19 AM on August 24, 2007 [27 favorites]

A meh article published on a meh website: Meh-tafilter?
posted by unmake at 11:20 AM on August 24, 2007 [3 favorites]

Suprisingly little defensiveness in this thread.
posted by DU at 11:20 AM on August 24, 2007

"Like OMG I was, like, looking up christmas decorations. You know, like, cute kittens covered in tinsel, and Like, OMG, LIKE. GROSS. Gross. (click) Gross. (click) Ick.... (click)"
posted by Peter H at 11:20 AM on August 24, 2007 [6 favorites]

I was innocently looking for Christmas present ideas on his computer. Literally, I was typing in “fireplace tools” in Google. And, as he turned to me and said hey, let’s watch this show together, I knew I had to quit. Me, being the Web geek that I am, immediately went to his Web history to erase my clues...Wow, not even just porn history, but registered porn history, credit-card-paid-subscription porn history. My stomach sank

She was looking for fireplace tools as a Christmas present, but had to hide the traces of her search? In other words the fireplace tools were going to be a present for him?

Frankly, if I were her boyfriend, I'd start an argument with her.

"Your heart sank? You want to see a heart sink, sweetheart, watch me open my presents Christmas morning to find fucking fireplace tools. What the hell is wrong with you? Why am I even in this relationship? Fireplace tools? What the fuck for? So I can freeze my ass off in the winter to bring in wood you bought from Pottery Barn that, I'm sorry, came from an asbestos tree? So I can go through all that work and start a fire just so we can drink cocoa and cuddle? While we're at it, maybe you can take one of those fireplace tools and smash me in the head with it.

Fireplace tools? I'm on here every night looking at hot chicks and you're looking at fireplace tools? Are you dead inside? You don't even know me. Look at all these websites. Do you see anything about fireplace tools? What do I have to do, write Santa a special letter? 'Dear Santa, I've been a naughty boy. Send lesbians.' THIS IS WHAT I WANT FOR CHRISTMAS!"
posted by Pastabagel at 11:20 AM on August 24, 2007 [204 favorites]

If so, could we get more porn based on that?

"Oh" face? "No" face? I got nothin'
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:21 AM on August 24, 2007

Signs that your husband/boyfriend looks at porn
1) He has an internet connection
posted by Mick at 11:21 AM on August 24, 2007 [37 favorites]

As outragepr0n goes, this is screaming squirting DP hotness for me.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:22 AM on August 24, 2007

initiated a pretty non-judgmental conversation about it

'cept for the "are you an unsatisfied gay perv who's afraid of or not interested in me", you're right.

I dunno.

I don't get the outrage, guys. Maybe I read the wrong part of the article, and later she gets into how terrible she thinks she is and how she's judging him and breaking up with him and how men are terrible and disgusting for liking porn! I'm prepared to accept that.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 11:23 AM on August 24, 2007

Snooping on the bf's computer for "fireplace tools"?

I'm not sure typing fireplace tools into google counts as snooping; plus he was supposedly sitting right there. Now, accessing the browser history to delete her searches, well, I guess that depends entirely on whether or not you believe she's lying about her intentions (which, of course, there's really no way of knowing for sure).

To be honest, I'm a little surprised by some of the more agressive responses here. I mean, bitch? She even acknowledges her somewhat conservative background that she postulates may have contributed to her initial reaction, which, while definitely misguided, wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be when I started reading it. And at least she's making an attempt to come to terms with it. I mean, I'm sure there are tons of other accounts of porn discovery on the internet that are a lot more rage-inducing than this one. Outrage-of-the-day, I guess...
posted by the other side at 11:23 AM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

""Oh" face? "No" face? I got nothin'"

Oh, c'mon— easy treatment.

She comes home, starts poking around on the computer looking for "fireplace tools" and finds the "tools" she didn't know she needed. She starts masturbating (ideally to some girl/girl bullshit), he comes home and catches her, they have sex.

Hell, you could even remake it as gay by having the first dude catch his boyfriend with straight porn, be concerned that he's wavering, have the second dude come home and have the first dude start out peeved but then fuck him back to gaydom.

And all of that would be more entertaining than "I found some pictures of hot Asian sluts on your computer, Bob. We need to have The Talk."
posted by klangklangston at 11:25 AM on August 24, 2007

Seriously, I feel bad for the boyfriend. Her reaction to his porn collection is probably a good reason 1) He's looking up kink online, instead of in bed and 2) Why he's hiding it from her.

There are tons, millions, of relationships where both people acknowledge porn to each other. This isn't one of them because this person is really uptight and judging.

How dare she "have a talk with him" and "settle this issue." Her problems seem much more real and harmful.
posted by Peter H at 11:25 AM on August 24, 2007

Man I hope my girlfriend never finds my 240 DVD wallet of porn...oh wait. Nevermind.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:26 AM on August 24, 2007

Forgot you don't have a girlfriend, TD?
posted by klangklangston at 11:28 AM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wait. There are people who pay for pr0n?

Girl, you need a boyfriend who actually has financial sense and is spending his money on YOU and not on anything else. You NEED things. You DESERVE things. And if he's unhappy with fireplace tools, then he should have been better at buying you that pair of shoes from Coach that you wanted.
posted by Stynxno at 11:29 AM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

My irritation boils down to this: This problem can be worked out, but I don't get the impression that it will be in this case. Talk about your sex life, don't shy away from negotiating what's okay with you, don't settle for less than an even balance with your partner, and don't close the book on an issue telling yourself its resolved if it isn't, because it will lead to insecurity or resentment.

Francis: You're doing it wrong!!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:29 AM on August 24, 2007

240 DVD wallet ~= a girlfriend
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:31 AM on August 24, 2007 [4 favorites]

I remember having the “have you ever watched it with another boyfriend/girlfriend” conversation and I recall him saying yes and me saying no. I know I asked about it because my last boyfriend hid it from me, and I also discovered it...

Oh, dear. I feel like this should be an Onion article. Maybe "Why Am I a Target for Porn-Addicted Sex Maniacs?": "It seems, no matter how hard I search for the perfect guy, I just keep finding these men who use the internet to look at pornography. It's almost as if...but no, that's too terrible to contemplate...!"
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:35 AM on August 24, 2007 [9 favorites]

Yet, this article on the same sight might actually count as porn...
posted by delmoi at 11:35 AM on August 24, 2007

Her boyfriend sounds like a great guy.
posted by fire&wings at 11:37 AM on August 24, 2007

The best part is how the boyfriend pulls the Jedi-mind trick and goes for the "oh yeah, well you masturbate in your sleep" angle. Unprovable and embarrassing. He deserves some props for pulling that one out of his ass, lol.
posted by stifford at 11:40 AM on August 24, 2007 [12 favorites]

Has she been living under a rock? A man looking at porn! Alert the authorities!

And I don't know about anybody else, but I would be pretty pissed off if I found my girlfriend snooping around on my computer, same as if she were going through my wallet.

If her article was written with a sincere heart, she's something of a cretin.
posted by rougy at 11:40 AM on August 24, 2007

The article is crap, but worth it for the stock photo. "Ah. Now what is bukakke?"

I still cringe at the thought of those site names and the picture of the whole scenario.

She should have named the sites.

Great, meaning traditionally great—nothing too non-traditional, no costumes, no toys, no role-playing ...

No, great meaning "great for you." There's likely something he's looking for in that porn that you're not providing. Figure out what it is.

Watch/read porn with him and get him to tell you what he likes about it. It's not rocket science.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:40 AM on August 24, 2007

240 DVD wallet ~= a girlfriend

- 240 DVD wallet is approximately a girlfriend?
- Assign to 240 DVD wallet the results of match function "a girlfriend"?

What are you on about, woman?
posted by cortex at 11:40 AM on August 24, 2007 [8 favorites]

Yeah, I gotta chime in with the "way too uptight" camp.

She instantly makes a list? Wants to know if he is a gay bestiality loving pedophile? Wants to "have a talk" and "settle the issue"?

Sounds like he's dating his Mom. Drop the square, move on.
posted by lazaruslong at 11:41 AM on August 24, 2007

Wait, are women still supposed to be bothered by the fact that our partners look at porn? Does this mean that we aren't supposed to be looking at it? I thought we were all over the "You like porn, that must mean you aren't satisfied with me" bullshit.
posted by arcticwoman at 11:41 AM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

Are you looking at anything that involves any kind of violence? Animals?

"I came home and caught him having a beer in front of the television. That's when I knew I had to confront him about his possible heroin addiction."
posted by jon_kill at 11:46 AM on August 24, 2007 [28 favorites]

Whew. I was worried, until she assured us that:

He does not look at anything scary, illegal, or gay.

Thank god. Now we just need to encourage Offenders to label themselves right away, and we won't have these anxieties. What I'm saying is: e-mail me if you need me to make you a T-shirt that says, "Scary, Illegal, and Gay."
posted by Greg Nog at 11:46 AM on August 24, 2007 [15 favorites]

that pastabagel comment was worth this ungodly boring article.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 11:47 AM on August 24, 2007

I was going for "approximates," O modly one. (Though the second option is okay, if my low, low level programming background has me on the right track)

Is there a preferred symbol I have yet to learn. I await your orders.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2007

thehmsbeagle, you missed the part where she says she was SNOOPING around on her boyfriends computer and had the GALL to get upset at what she found. Is that clear enough? I can do 1400 words if you want, but...

And yes nosing around somebody else's browser cache is as bad as rifling his sock drawer; think about it.

And misha, I think anything that takes four pages to tell the reader, "I've decided I'm okay with it" really says "I'm an obsessive compulsive snoop who loves to justify herself at length, and get paid to titillate the readers with it to boot."

He shouldn't have to mind his cache from his girlfriend's snooping because she shouldn't snoop in the first place, but yeah, you can set most browsers to automagically delete that stuff, knowing that with something as "sensitive" as porn you should TRUST NO ONE. What good or service did he fail to render her that she's blabbing publicly about his porn-viewing in the first place? Remember, most people who've been ratted out were NOT rated out by strangers, and somebody who'd tell EVERYBODY about your porn viewing can do even worse -- and probably will for one reason or another.

(All those with absolutely nothing to hide please post your browser histories, your complete financial data and all your daily diary entries for the past 10 years.)

What bothers me most about him is that a) he paid for porn with b) his credit card. What kind of moron does that? (Besides poor Pete Townshend, I mean.)

And on preview (some days I type even slower than I think), what Stynxno said.
posted by davy at 11:51 AM on August 24, 2007

Let me speak for the boyfriend:

Dearest love of my life,

Ages ago in the dawn of humankind man realized one simple truth: Looking at sluts is fun but having relationships with sluts is not fun. I am happy to be with you because you are not a slut and yet you are fun to look at. If you want to pretend to be a slut once in a while that'd be fun too. In the meantime I'll just check out a few sluts on the ol' www while you watch unbearable chick flicks starring hunky lead actors in unrealistic situations, which is kind of like porn.

Thank you for your undertsanding in this very trivial matter.
posted by StarForce5 at 11:55 AM on August 24, 2007 [48 favorites]

I was going for "approximates," O modly one.

Very well! Carry on, then, and my apologies for doubting you.
posted by cortex at 11:55 AM on August 24, 2007

It seems like this should be shared with someone close to the girl, not necessarily the internet...
posted by NedderLander at 11:55 AM on August 24, 2007

I thought we were all over the "You like porn, that must mean you aren't satisfied with me" bullshit.

You know, it's not that simple. As I went on about the last time we had a porn thread, I like porn fine, but if that junk is going to stunt our joint sexual explorations and progress (toward the sexy singularity, obvs) even a little bit, it's counter to my prerogative, and it needs to be managed. Not a la Francis, though.

(Francis really is the most prudish name I can think of, btw.)
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:56 AM on August 24, 2007

Gotta say between the fireplace tools and the horror at finding porn, this woman sounds like a champ. And I agree, this was worth it for the pastabagel comment!
posted by maxwelton at 11:57 AM on August 24, 2007

all your daily diary entries for the past 10 years

August 24, 1997: "Plotting to kill davy."
August 25, 1997: "Plotting to kill davy."
August 26, 1997: "Plotting to kill davy."
August 27, 1997: "Plotting to kill davy."
August 28, 1997: "Plotting to kill davy."
August 29, 1997: "Plotting to kill davy."

...

August 23, 2007: "Plotting to kill davy."
August 24, 2007: "Plotting to kill davy."
posted by Krrrlson at 11:58 AM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

So she "cringes" at the thought, but then goes and blabs to a friend about it?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 11:59 AM on August 24, 2007

heh heh..."tool"...heh heh
posted by mosk at 12:01 PM on August 24, 2007

Discovering Porn (_______________________)
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:02 PM on August 24, 2007

Hey Krrrlson, want my home address?
posted by davy at 12:02 PM on August 24, 2007

This woman is a cunt.

That dude should break up with her and find a woman adjusted to normal society.
posted by smackwich at 12:03 PM on August 24, 2007

He should have grilled her as to what erotic dreams & fantasies she's been hiding from him.

You girls are freaky. Don't deny it.

I'm onto you.
posted by LordSludge at 12:04 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Get off the internet, Fran. You're wasting valuable boobwidth.
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 12:06 PM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

Ambrosia Voyeur: ...this is screaming squirting DP hotness for me.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

slowly...
posted by LordSludge at 12:06 PM on August 24, 2007

By the way, FrancIs is a boy's name; for girls it's FrancEs. Look it up. It's like MariOn (boy) and MariAn (girl). I kid you not.

And in America it's better if you don't name your boy Andrea, regardless of what it is anywhere else. People have enough problems with Andreas or Andre, probably because they can't call him Drew.
posted by davy at 12:07 PM on August 24, 2007

I have no major beef with the fact that she still has hang-ups about porn. Lots of people still do, and it's nice that she spoke with her boyfriend about it, though she definitely could have done so without jumping to nonsensical conclusions.

I am very upset, however, at the fact that this disinteresting article exists. And that I read it.

Goddammit.
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 12:11 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

I first parsed "modly one" as "moldy one." I'm going to be doing a little mental substitution every time I see cortex' name now, just thought everyone would want to know.
posted by Skorgu at 12:16 PM on August 24, 2007

I still cringe at the thought of those site names and the picture of the whole scenario.

mgrimm: She should have named the sites.

I agree. I could really use some fresh links.
posted by pardonyou? at 12:21 PM on August 24, 2007

So I just used Google Suggest searching for "Fireplace Tools." Nothing remotely porn-worthy was auto-filled.
posted by sourwookie at 12:21 PM on August 24, 2007

This fireplace broom, it vibrates?
posted by malocchio at 12:25 PM on August 24, 2007

a million apologies, i just couldn't resist.
posted by malocchio at 12:26 PM on August 24, 2007

I got in trouble when the g/f found the *hard*drive* named "porn". This is nothing.
posted by notsnot at 12:29 PM on August 24, 2007

I first parsed "modly one" as "moldy one."

Huh. So did I.
posted by cortex at 12:30 PM on August 24, 2007

"Hmmm, I wonder if there's a site called fireplacetools.com?"

*types*

fuckmeharder.com
filthysluts.com
firsttimelesbians.com
firehosecumshots.com
fireplugdildos.com

*closes browser, cries, blogs furiously*
posted by Armitage Shanks at 12:30 PM on August 24, 2007 [19 favorites]

So I just used Google Suggest searching for "Fireplace Tools." Nothing remotely porn-worthy was auto-filled.

I think she claimed she went in to clear the history because she didn't want him to see she was searching for fireplace tools (yes, protect that secret with your life, dear). That's when she saw his history. Suspicious that she didn't just hit the "clear history" button, and instead went in to examine line-by-line, though.
posted by pardonyou? at 12:33 PM on August 24, 2007

>> 240 DVD wallet ~= a girlfriend
>
> - 240 DVD wallet is approximately a girlfriend?
> - Assign to 240 DVD wallet the results of match function "a girlfriend"?
>
> What are you on about, woman?

240 is the extreme upper limit. At 241 you start having to remember its birthday.
posted by jfuller at 12:33 PM on August 24, 2007

Man, it's a good thing the yuppies are the engine for the global economy. Cuz otherwise we'd have to shoot the whole lot of them.
posted by nixerman at 12:35 PM on August 24, 2007

Maybe she found all the porn links because that's what he was buying her for Christmas.
posted by ColdChef at 12:37 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile he sold the fireplace and she sold her genitals.

by O. Henry.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:40 PM on August 24, 2007 [55 favorites]

Meanwhile he sold the fireplace and she sold her genitals.

I am humbled by your genius. Bravo!
posted by ColdChef at 12:43 PM on August 24, 2007

This woman is a cunt

Wow, that's not an extreme reaction at all.
posted by nuclear_soup at 12:43 PM on August 24, 2007 [3 favorites]

Good lord, that article takes me back.
I had this female co-worker. We talked about a lot of stuff over the years. One constant theme with her was her simple inability to accept that men and women were different. She honestly expected men to act and think and have the same needs and motivations as women (or, at least, her)
She especially had a real problem understanding men's sexual needs and responses. She was married. She seemed almost insulted that, when she and her husband showered together, he'd occasionally get a boner.
She simply couldn't accept that men don't control themselves any better.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:44 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile he sold the fireplace and she sold her genitals.

OMG SPOILER WARNING PLZ!
posted by dersins at 12:45 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Frankly, I'd be really upset if someone cleared my history. How would I get to places I'd been before and wanted to get back to? You don't delete things off other people's computers any more than you snoop through them. It'd also be readily apparent that someone was doing something on my computer that they didn't want me to see.
posted by darksasami at 12:46 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Now I have to watch out for my girlfriend too?
posted by Brak at 12:47 PM on August 24, 2007

# re you looking at young girls that would be considered illegal?
# Are you looking at gay sex with two men? (Let it be known, I have nothing against gay sex. My issue here is that if my boyfriend is struggling with his sexuality I would rather he do it outside a monogamous heterosexual relationship).
# Are you looking at anything that involves any kind of violence? Animals?

I'm impressed. This woman finds a link to (I'm guessing, something like) www.spanking-sluts-in-french-maid-outfits.com in her bf's history and immediately begins the Reid technique interrogation to determine if he's looking at gay sex (between two men? not three or ten?) or is a child-molester.

The sad thing is, if this woman had called in to Dr. Laura or Dr. Phil asking for advice, she might have been actually confirmed in her fears that looking at pr0n = HORRENDOUS DEVIANCY. In my experience, those kinds of views are actually pretty common outside of MeFi bohemians, among both women and men.
posted by Avenger at 12:49 PM on August 24, 2007

She seemed almost insulted that, when she and her husband showered together, he'd occasionally get a boner.

That is seriously insulting, though. Occasionally?!?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:49 PM on August 24, 2007 [9 favorites]

Discovering your girlfriend (has ben snooping around on your computer) [WTF]

fucking ben! i'll kill him!
posted by quonsar at 12:53 PM on August 24, 2007

fucking ben! i'll kill him!

Don't shoot the messenger. Your girlfriend had him do it.
posted by Brak at 12:57 PM on August 24, 2007

She seemed almost insulted that, when she and her husband showered together, he'd occasionally get a boner.

Hmmm, here I thought that was pretty much the only reason husbands and wives ever shower together.
posted by pardonyou? at 1:01 PM on August 24, 2007

I can't help but wonder where Alexyss Tylor would weigh in on all this.
posted by well_balanced at 1:01 PM on August 24, 2007

I can't understand for the life of me why anyone would be in a relationship with someone with whom they wouldn't feel comfortable sharing their sexual fantasies and masturbation habits.

Your girlfriend confronts you about some lesbian porn and accuses you of being a gay donkeyfucker? DTMFA.

Your boyfriend is jealous of your vibrator? DTMFA.

I guess some people just don't read Savage Love. Pity them.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 1:07 PM on August 24, 2007 [3 favorites]

"No, great meaning "great for you." There's likely something he's looking for in that porn that you're not providing. Figure out what it is."

That's bullshit, at least for me. A lot of the stuff that I enjoy seeing in porn are things that I have no interest in doing with my girlfriend. Just like how a lot of what I see in movies has nothing to do with what I'd like to do in real life (Jarhead was a pretty decent flick; going to Iraq would suck).
posted by klangklangston at 1:08 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

My boyfriend and I have already had this discussion, and he doesn't pay for porn.

"Pay" being the keyword there. Which is cool with me because I don't think I could date a man who paid for what's so readily available online for free. It says something about a man's financial smarts, I'm just saying.
posted by katillathehun at 1:08 PM on August 24, 2007 [3 favorites]

You guys have seriously never encountered this attitude, at all? I have a friend who I'd say is generally open-minded, reasonably experience with dealing with relationships, and she still somewhat flipped out when she found porn on the computer of her boyfriend of about a year and a half. Outside of the point of thinking the boyfriend was some demented pervert like the writer of this article does, my friend had some of the same feelings of inadequacy, questioning whether he was looking for something outside of their relationship, and thought it was kind of somehow gross that he was doing this within their relationship.

I was a little put off by some of her questioning, but I assured her that yeah, this is pretty normal, and no, he's not outside of any norms. She hadn't encountered this, hadn't realized it was probably fairly commonplace, and kind of freaked. I hear that happens in relationships.
posted by mikeh at 1:12 PM on August 24, 2007

Two naive uptight babes here, if you ask me. It sounds like her boyfriend isn't much further along on a path to healthy sexual attitudes than she is.

First, he chose a woman who was at best naive and at worst uptight; then he aided, abetted, and fostered a continued state of naivete by his own lack of openness. Could be through shyness, but I've known plenty of men who bizarrely choose women that they can keep on a virgin/goddess/ingenue pedestal.

He would watch her masturbating in her sleep but he never brought this up until she initiated the discussion about porn???? Shame on him for letting what could have been a fun, teachable moment slip by. This blue-balled guy silently lying beside his girl friend and hiding his porn sounds equally uptight to me, perhaps more so. Naive and uptight though she may be, at least she had the honesty to bring the issue out in the open.
posted by madamjujujive at 1:18 PM on August 24, 2007 [3 favorites]

"Male masturbation is a personal turn off for me. As a single woman, I'm especially looking for a man who doesn't masturbate, even while he's single."
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2007

I assured her that yeah, this is pretty normal, and no, he's not outside of any norms.

I don't think jacking it routinely for years unbeknownst to your SO should be allowed in the norms.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:21 PM on August 24, 2007

oops, on preview, yay mjjj!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:21 PM on August 24, 2007

My girl's porn is better than mine. :( And she won't let me haves it.
posted by Debaser626 at 1:22 PM on August 24, 2007

Link extremely related: Save Brandon
posted by Cathedral at 1:24 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

My boyfriend and I have already had this discussion, and he doesn't pay for porn.

Hmm. I know that it's conventional wisdom that paying for pornography is teh ultralame, but I disagree.

I'd rather my partner spends $X (provided $X is not ridiculous) and spend 1-2 hours a week *watching* porn, than spend 10-15 hours searching through newsgroups and torrents hoping to find what he/she is looking for.

Also, "free porn" is often equivalent to "free music" - just because it's readily available doesn't mean it's not a copyright violation.

I could say that anyone who pays for digital music is a retard too. But I won't. ;)
posted by mrgrimm at 1:26 PM on August 24, 2007

Yeah, it sounds like she's the person with problems in that relationship.

Myself, I came home nine years ago to find out that my girlfriend (now wife) had discovered my hidden VHS porn tape stash, watched through all of them, and was of the opinion that my taste in "cheap bargain basement porn" sucked, and that if I was going to buy porn, I should spend more money for the good stuff.
posted by mrbill at 1:27 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Also, "free porn" is often equivalent to "free music" - just because it's readily available doesn't mean it's not a copyright violation.

I am nigh certain that no one (outside of the industry, at least) has ever, ever considered that a deterrent.
posted by cortex at 1:33 PM on August 24, 2007

I have been trying to fucking remember "Mary Romantic" for at least a year. I've almost Asked Metafilter a half a dozen times. I kept looking for "Mary Gentle", who is a SF author, I guess.

Thanks, Joakim Ziegler.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 1:35 PM on August 24, 2007

Link extremely related: Save Brandon

Christ, I'm an atheist but I hope to God, Jesus and all His Holy Angels that the "mom's letter" is a joke.
posted by Avenger at 1:37 PM on August 24, 2007

These Premises Are Alarmed: Apparently, she registered marygentle.com after shutting down maryromantic.com, but never used it. It's a link farm now, which ironically offers treatment for the inability to pull back your foreskin.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:39 PM on August 24, 2007

Funniest thing ever -- e-cards for "pornography addicts," featuring text such as:

"I'm sorry I've hurt you by using pornography.
I promise to do whatever I must to overcome it."

and

"Getting porn out of your life is hard.
I want to help!"

The goofy Precious Momentsy soft-focus images just MAKE the whole thing...
posted by bitter-girl.com at 1:40 PM on August 24, 2007 [4 favorites]

I am only half way through the comments here, but I had to say it.

I liked the article

Frankly, I can't imagine the conversation going this well in my house. It's a fact that men look at porn. It's also a fact that some women are squeamish about porn. Mrs. Bartfast is the most intelligent, sexy woman I have every met and an animal in the sack, but she was born in a village in India and to her porn is an alien, frightening thing. I don't feel compelled to force her to confront this. But, if she ever searches for fireplace tools on my computer (god forbid!) and sees my history it would make me happy if she googled this article before she confronted me.

Now, off to erase my browsing history...
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:43 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

That chick is the queen of cluelessness. She's doomed.
posted by zorro astor at 1:48 PM on August 24, 2007

I don't know. Everybody's dumping on this woman for being uptight, but she seems pretty OK about everything.

I had a girlfriend find my pr0n once. She accused me of "cheating on [her] emotionally" and dragged me over the coals for a week or two. Two years later she was fucking some college boy behind my back. Now that is some uptight bullshit.

Francis is welcome to find my porn anytime
posted by lekvar at 1:50 PM on August 24, 2007

Good on you for protecting your wife from your world, Slarty Bartfast.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:52 PM on August 24, 2007

Hey man, I never download porn.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 2:07 PM on August 24, 2007

I was being hypothetical
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 2:08 PM on August 24, 2007

Yeah, this doesn't seem that bad to me. Everybody's got hang-ups.
posted by 912 Greens at 2:12 PM on August 24, 2007

Author Planned Ironic Demise

SAN FRANCISCO, CA. — An extensive search of novelist Michael Peterson's home and grounds failed to yield a murder weapon, and there were no telltale trails of blood leading out of the house, a police officer testified Tuesday.

Prosecutors theorize that Francis McKenzie, the 29-year-old author's wife of nearly five years, was killed with a fireplace tool known as a "blow poke." They suspect that Michael Peterson killed the 28-year-old victim with the poker, then wrapped the bloody murder weapon in towels and disposed of it before calling 911 to report that his wife had "an accident" and had fallen down stairs.
posted by wallstreet1929 at 2:12 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Once a former boyfriend found porn on my computer. I have never, ever seen a freakout quite like that one. Several days later he admitted that he looked at porn too, but continued to insist that it was different if I did it. He was not a keeper.

A lot of women, particularly ones raised in environments like this one's, tend to have a very negative view of porn. She could have reacting so much worse, and I'll be lucky if that's as uptight as my SOs ever get.
posted by honeydew at 2:13 PM on August 24, 2007 [4 favorites]

Are women like this, seriously?

I'm glad I'm gay (Oh snap, outed on MeFi!), my man and I each have tons of porn. We both have odd fetishes and porn of them that the other isn't interested in. We both look at weird shit on the internet, things that might turn us on but that we have no desire to actually do in the bedroom. And we both have gigs and gigs of porn of good-looking men we'd kill to bang despite a monogamous relationship. And neither of us care. Because we're men, its porn, its going to happen, and its harmless.
posted by SilverTail at 2:15 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

This is why I download and print out all of my ASCII porn. I hide it under the bed, and to stay emotionally honest with my wife, tape pictures of her head, Xeroxed from her driver's license, over each stick figure's 'face.'

If she asks me about it, I'll enter my fugue state and produce a tube of Cherry Red #5 lipstick from my pocket. As she looks on, I will strip naked and slowly draw the ASCII characters over my quivering flesh while emitting soft cooing noises.

I figure this way, the experience will be as creepy as possible and we will really grow as a couple.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:17 PM on August 24, 2007 [40 favorites]

Oh, Robocop, you romantic fool!
posted by lekvar at 2:23 PM on August 24, 2007

I gotta say, this article makes me feel bad for the girl, more than outraged against her. I mean, she can't help having been raised the way she was. But I really wish she'd have come to a better conclusion than she did. I think Ambrosia Voyeur nailed it when she said that this was like reading a condemnation of pornography and the men who look at it that only happened to end with a "but I'll put up with how gross you are" outlook.

I mean, for real:

I still cringe at the thought of those site names and the picture of the whole scenario. But who likes thinking about their monogamous partner in that light?

Plenty of people. That's the thing, you see. That whole outlook of being disgusted by any sign of sexuality from your boyfriend that doesn't fit a traditional mold is a throwback from an outdated and rapidly disintegrating social structure. You're not being progressive by accepting this even though you're grossed out by it. You're just finally catching up to a social movement that's been going on while you've been sheltered and traditional.

But again, I don't blame her. She seems to at least have made some progress growing up out of an old and obsolete worldview, however little progress anyone here might perceive it as being. On the other hand, reading this was like reading an article written recently explaining that through hard work and patience a woman can eventually come to accept the idea that she can support herself financially instead of relying on a husband. Please to join the sexual revolution of 40 years ago, kthxbye.
posted by shmegegge at 2:28 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

I could find all the porn I want on Usenet for free. If, that is, I ever wanted to look at it, which I don't. And if I ever did view porn it would be in a therapeutic context, to see if I could remember ever being subjected to anything sexual in real life. Which of course I haven't, because "Chastity" is my middle name. Really. I don't even have an Uncle Ernie.
posted by davy at 2:29 PM on August 24, 2007

Avenger, it's not a joke... Trust me.

The ongoing war between the womyn supporting BitingBeaver and the /b/tards trying to save Brandon is very, very real. Sites are going down, emails are getting hacked, comments are being spammed. Epic bridge tolls are being sacrificed on the altar of lulz.

And from perusal of the associated links, I actually think, as horrific as it is, that I am pulling for /b/.
posted by Cathedral at 2:29 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Link extremely related: Save Brandon

From Cathedral's 'Save Brandon' link:

"I know, that as soon as my child leaves my home and moves into his own place that he will be looking at porn immediately. I know that I am raising a problem for women. I know that this child will one day grow and will fully absorb the messages that porn sends to men. I know that my child masturbates to degradation of my people (when I use that phrase I mean womyn) and that with every orgasm he will further solidify his own hatred of and superiority over, women.

I know that there will likely come a day where my son coerces a young woman into sex (rape) and there isn’t a damned thing I can do about it. I look into the eyes of my son and they still sparkle like they did when he was a baby, but he’s not a baby anymore, he’s growing into a man and that man will have trained himself to degrade women before he leaves my home.

As a radical feminist who puts women first I cannot begin to determine what I should do with regards to this issue. My heart breaks because there is nothing I can do to protect the womyn he will come into contact with."

Oh, my. And penned by "Biting Beaver."

Christ, I'm an atheist but I hope to God, Jesus and all His Holy Angels that the "mom's letter" is a joke.

It's gotta be a joke. Please be a joke.
posted by ericb at 2:29 PM on August 24, 2007

Maybe it's not a joke: Den of the Biting Beaver -- "Gnawing away at sexism and misogyny, one patriarchal asshole at a time!" ("This blog is open to invited readers only," but here's cached references).
posted by ericb at 2:33 PM on August 24, 2007

As far as I can tell, and I've delved pretty deep into referring links... It's not a joke.
posted by Cathedral at 2:39 PM on August 24, 2007

BitingBeaver said: I know, in my heart of hearts that, knowing what I know now, if I had it to do over again I would have had that abortion.


whoa. that's some tough love right there.
posted by dubold at 2:41 PM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

Man, I so didn't need to read this thread. My crush on Ambrosia Voyeur just got worse.

Hey, forget Baraka. Didn't someone do a tolerable film version of "The Story of O"?
posted by loquacious at 2:43 PM on August 24, 2007

Hey Krrrlson, want my home address?

I'm a plotter, not a carrier-outer.
posted by Krrrlson at 2:48 PM on August 24, 2007

Wait until she finds the video he took of her while she was asleep on YouTube.
posted by bwg at 2:52 PM on August 24, 2007 [3 favorites]

You also may remember Biting Beaver from post about being denied emergency contraception which contains little gems such as: "Well, quite frankly I don’t know, it seems that there is no moral to the story other than morality clauses fucking suck. I’m off to smoke a carton of cigarettes and suck down more butter rum so stick that in your morality pipe and smoke it you dirty bastards. Oh and if I end up having to get an abortion I’ll ask if I can keep the little parasite and I’ll be sending it to each of you who denied me EC. "...

I'm stopping digging. I can only be so outragedly bewildered this early in the day...
posted by Cathedral at 2:56 PM on August 24, 2007

loquacious-
I haven't read the book, but I've, errr, heard that there's a pretty good pr0n adaptation of "The Story of O."
posted by lekvar at 2:59 PM on August 24, 2007

This is the greatest thing I ever saw. Thanks, bitter-girl.com!
posted by Superfrankenstein at 3:01 PM on August 24, 2007

Peter H : Who is this woman? She sounds 17.

She sounds like Carrie Bradshaw. But her boyfriend isn't Big.
posted by Robert Angelo at 3:08 PM on August 24, 2007

Tools > Options >Security> Master password> ************
Enable Greasemonkey Google Search Cookie Cleaner
posted by Mblue at 3:10 PM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

from the comments attached to the linked article:

"We have Kinsey to thank for normalizing deviant sexuality and cementing the modern, supposedly erudite, European view that our modern Sodom and Gomorrah are fine "as long as you're not hurting anyone.""

To reference star trek referencing hamlet:

What [random internet person] said with irony, I say with conviction: Thank you Kinsey, for all your good work.
posted by Arturus at 3:10 PM on August 24, 2007

What does "beanplate" mean?
posted by Flunkie at 3:16 PM on August 24, 2007

oh, and the Biting Beaver bit is completely real. She's also the original author of the Rapist Checklist*, whatever you happen to think of it.

* link is to encyclopedia dramatica, but the page in question is just a reproduction of her original post. Venturing beyond the linked page is not reccomended, unless you know what you're getting into, in which case, have a ball.
posted by Arturus at 3:16 PM on August 24, 2007

Damn Europeans! Corrupting our Puritanism since 1607!!
posted by Avenger at 3:18 PM on August 24, 2007

Man, I so didn't need to read this thread. My crush on Ambrosia Voyeur just got worse.

Just keep it in check, loquacious, and I might let her out of the dungeon to meet you someday.
posted by contraption at 3:20 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

You're welcome, Superfrankenstein! Awesome username. Yes.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 3:22 PM on August 24, 2007

Francis really is the most prudish name I can think of, btw.
Funny you should say that on today of all days, Ambrosia Voyeur, as it's my boyfriend's confirmation name, and this morning, I spent at least five minutes tormenting him with it.

(For extra annoying effect, say it like Pee Wee Herman does in Pee Wee's Big Adventure: FRANCIS!)
posted by bitter-girl.com at 3:26 PM on August 24, 2007

As a radical feminist who puts women first

Unfortunately, anyone who's dumb enough to think that women are inherently superior to men (or the other way around) is not going to be leaving much room for reason in that head of theirs.
posted by oaf at 3:30 PM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

I get the feeling, reading the Rapist Checklist, that Biting Beaver sits around the house, and tries to think up new permutations of what might be rape.

Gosh, that must be fun for her three sons - especially the one that she wishes she aborted, because he masturbates to pornography...

Bringing it back to the topic of the post - my wife and her best friend tend to suggest topics to add to the pronobot that I use to hoover up free smut. Most of the women that I know tend to be either consumers of pornography, or at most, completely relaxed about it. I guess I am just too out of touch with both the mild form of anti-porn that the OP's article was about and the 'pornography is hate speech against womyn" that Biting Beaver believes in.

Either way, I can't help but wonder how much energy that could be assessed to real issues is being siphoned into what is, after all, a fairly minor issue. Even if it's totally gonzo'd shot in a day, semidegrading smut - it just doesn't rank as high on my personal moral Ritcher scale as say, burning a 5 year old alive to make a political statement...

Sorry for going all off-topic on y'all.
posted by Cathedral at 3:31 PM on August 24, 2007

am I the only one who sees goatse? ... I guess I need help.
posted by thanatogenous at 3:33 PM on August 24, 2007

This chick could overthink a plate of beans.

Honorary account, Matt?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:34 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

does anyone else wish that someone who knows biting beaver personally would report her to child services?
posted by shmegegge at 3:35 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

And yes, BitingBeaver is almost certainly a textbook example of something in DSM-IV.
posted by oaf at 3:36 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

"Save Brandon" indeed. Oh, those poor kids.
posted by Space Kitty at 3:43 PM on August 24, 2007

"You masturbated in your sleep last night."

"What??"

"You could at least smile. Trust you to ruin my fun, teachable moment Francis. Quit being an uptight baby and enjoy my rounded and mature openness."
posted by fire&wings at 3:44 PM on August 24, 2007

What does "beanplate" mean?
posted by Flunkie

See here, and here. It's Metafilter's national pasttime.
posted by rtha at 3:46 PM on August 24, 2007

And another thought...anyone who alters the spelling of "woman" or "women" because of its etymology does so in total ignorance thereof.
posted by oaf at 3:52 PM on August 24, 2007

Also, "Well, you masturbate in your SLEEP!" is my new comeback for.....well, everything.

"Mr. Avenger, isn't it true that on the night of the 20th of April, you, dressed in a chicken suit and armed with a deadly weapon, did assault the President of the United States?"

Me: "It is true, counselor, but, as God as my witness, I've seen you MASTURBATING in your SLEEP!"

*angry uproar from the galley*

Judge: "Order! Order! This case is dismissed on account of masturbation. The bailiff will free the prisoner."
posted by Avenger at 4:03 PM on August 24, 2007 [4 favorites]

Just keep it in check, loquacious, and I might let her out of the dungeon to meet you someday.

If I don't keep it in check, will you just put me in the dungeon, too?

Please? I've been very bad. I need discipline.
posted by loquacious at 4:05 PM on August 24, 2007

whew...

i am so glad that i read this thread.
i haven't laughed this hard for days.

so...thanks.
posted by schyler523 at 4:06 PM on August 24, 2007

For the lub of JEEBUS - someone get loquacious some discipline! Can't you see the man's in pain???!
posted by Cathedral at 4:09 PM on August 24, 2007

Perhaps. But first, to show your genuine contrition, you will give me your user number.
posted by contraption at 4:10 PM on August 24, 2007

wait, so, you don't think that the things Biting Beaver listed as examples of rape are, in fact, rape? Or you just think that listing them all is excessive?

'Cause where I grew up, people could have used this list... Of all the (questionable, ahistorical, etc.) reasons to mock her politics, this list seems like the least convincing.
posted by obliquicity at 4:16 PM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

What amazes me are the comments suggesting that porn is so addictive than anyone who has it must be an addict. It's like a caricature of the idea that if you smoke pot once, you are a junkie within weeks.

And what I find sad about the discussion here is that she clearly knows she's needy and not quite right for seeing herself as inadequate if her man masturbates-- but many people here think that's a reason to condemn her.

She seems quite aware that she's being weird for wanting that kind of reassurance-- but that doesn't mean she's wrong to want it from a loving partner. Let s/he who is without any insecurity cast the first snark.
posted by Maias at 4:29 PM on August 24, 2007

Discovering Porn (on your girlfriends computer)
...Dude, sweet!

Masturbating in your sleep is nothing, I masterbate to banjo music.
Oh, it isn’t a contest. Sorry. Well, it’s not hurting anyone.

(What is the point to the “our modern Sodom and Gomorrah are fine” thing - that we should be hurting someone? Moralists, they’re wacky)

Chewin’ with your mouth open? Rape.
Leaving the toilet seat up? Rape.
Farting in front of old college girlfriend/rivals? U better believe that’s a paddlin’
posted by Smedleyman at 4:30 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Masturbating in your sleep is nothing, I masterbate to banjo music.
Oh, it isn’t a contest. Sorry. Well, it’s not hurting anyone.

Tell that to the banjo player.
posted by cortex at 4:33 PM on August 24, 2007

cortex, banjo music and sexual fantasy do not mix. Did Deliverance teach us nothing?
posted by jonmc at 4:59 PM on August 24, 2007

Masturbating in your sleep is nothing, I masterbate to banjo music.
Oh, it isn’t a contest. Sorry. Well, it’s not hurting anyone.

EXCEPT STEVE MARTIN!

(why do you think he wore that white suit all the time in the 70s?)
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:30 PM on August 24, 2007

obliquicity

I could start with her entire checklist that is at once so forceful in its completeness for the definition of rape, yet simply omits that the other half of the population also gets raped.

Or I could point out she is attempting to claim to be the exclusive definition of a crime beyond what other consenting parties might think.

Or I could just say her list taken as a whole seems to broker victimization as a powerplay.

In conjunction with what she has written about her son, she seems to be denying men any sort of sexual outlet unless it conforms exclusively to her terms and conditions, in effect manipulating her sexuality while at the same time denying what affect it plays on the current conditions.

Would that be reason enough to mock her politics?
posted by quintessencesluglord at 5:44 PM on August 24, 2007 [4 favorites]

obliquicity: Actually I agree that nearly everything she's listed is rape, although I'm a little fuzzy on a few of them, and might put some hedges around a few others. The one about sex while sleeping came up on savage love a few weeks ago, where the partner consented to sleep-sex while awake, but then resisted once she was actually asleep. Guy wrote in asking if there was any way to get the subconscious to go along with what the conscious mind was willing to do. No rape clearly, because he wasn't having sex with her resisting, sleeping self, but even if he had, I'd still say it wasn't rape, given the consent. I'm not sure what Biting Beaver would say, could be an interesting question.

Anyway, that's why I deliberately hedged the link with "whatever you might think". I put it up because it's a well circulated piece, and adds context, but I know that much of the circulation is of a LOLFEMINISTS sort. I agree with a lot of her politics myself, but I diverge from a lot of her more radical stances, like the whole porn business. Overall, I find her a bit frustrating, because in a lot of circles I see her more radical positions being held up for ridicule, and furthering people's self-justification in distancing themselves from feminism, which is bad. So from my point of view, I can't tell whether she's doing more harm or good.
posted by Arturus at 5:45 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

oh, and the Biting Beaver bit is completely real. She's also the original author of the Rapist Checklist*, whatever you happen to think of it.

I get the feeling, reading the Rapist Checklist, that Biting Beaver sits around the house, and tries to think up new permutations of what might be rape.

Gosh, that must be fun for her three sons...

And yes, BitingBeaver is almost certainly a textbook example of something in DSM-IV.

Uh, ok, her anti-masturbation shit is presumably nuts, but what is weird about the anti-rape stuff? She's just clarifying that rape doesn't just refer to a dark alley at gunpoint with some Scary Black Man. No, it could be you when you don't give a shit what your wife wants 'cause men have needs yadda yadda.

The original article is an interesting crossover moment, it seems to me - we're at a point in history when the portion of the population who openly claim that porn is normal & healthy and the portion who consider it unhealthy, gross, immature, tacky or otherwise negative, is similar enough for a mainstream article to sort of take both sides, so to speak. She can be upset by it and also accepting of it. She acts like it's something worth getting upset over (I can't imagine caring about something so inconsequential) and then makes it into a big emotional discussion where they can bare their true feelings, which supposedly makes them both feel better by the end.

The main thing it did for me was remind me how annoying I must be when i want to "talk things over" about some little issue. Though I guess that's the fun of having a relationship with another human being - we get weirded out by the dumbest things sometimes, just due to connotations things hold for us etc, so sometimes we have to talk about stuff that other people would not blink over.

Like someone above said, everyone's got issues. It's sad that lots of Americans have sex issues, but hey. At least some people are trying to work through 'em.
posted by mdn at 5:48 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

My wife and I were actually discussing the rape list on the drive home. (How many times can you start off a post with that sentence?) There are a lot of good things on the list. There are a lot of things that are pure crap. For instance, "3. You are a rapist if you get yourself drunk and have sex with her. Your drunkeness is no excuse. "

Well crap... We talked about it, and there are at least two times in the past six months that I've had sex with my wife while I was more than a few beers to the wind. The results were quite satisfactory to my wife - yet I am a rapist, and somehow this made #3 on the list... Note especially the semantic equality of sex and rape in this sentence - Nothing about the girl's attitude toward the act... Given this sentence, my wife could have been a fricking cheerleader for the drunken sex act, stone cold sober, and wearing a schoolgirl outfit, and it's STILL rape.

Another example: "13. You are a rapist if you 'nag' her for sex. Because you manage to ply an eventual 'yes' from a weary victim doesn't mean it's not rape. You are a rapist." By this definition, I'm a rapist. I ask my wife for sex once a day, on average. Hell, sometimes twice... If that doesn't fit nagging, I don't know what does...

She's got a bunch of things on that list that are clearly personal for her. But what she's really doing is trivializing rape. Paired with her other writings, I am almost convinced that any sex without an elaborate "may I" ritual in front of it is rape. Don't misunderstand me - rape is an extremely horrific crime in my personal pantheon of sins - one for which there can be no mitigating factors - eg I can find myself in positions where I might find it appropriate to murder someone.. perhaps even a moral imperative for that murder... However, I cannot see any justification, ever, for rape. I'm pretty firm on that.

So yes, she needs to be mocked - at the bare minimum. Personally, I think she's a danger to her kids' long term mental health, a detriment to the perception of feminism, and, a drag on the perception of women overall. As my wife said, "She makes me embarrassed to be a woman."

Sorry for the continued derail... I think it's an interesting tangent, though...

(How do I comment another user's post?)
posted by Cathedral at 5:49 PM on August 24, 2007 [5 favorites]

Stealther is a addon for firefox that allows you to not save any browsing history/cookies/cache/downloads/anything when its on, with the simple click of a toolbar button. click. look at porn. unclick. genius. you're welcome.
posted by Mach5 at 6:12 PM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

Perhaps. But first, to show your genuine contrition, you will give me your user number.

Woah, woah, woah now hold the hell on there... That's a little personal, don't you think?

I mean, at least before the first date and all.


Hell, I don't really care about the user number. Don't really care about the "Date joined", either. My username, however, isn't for sale or barter at any price. Err, well, unless you just so happen to have a duffel full of unmarked bills handy.
posted by loquacious at 6:37 PM on August 24, 2007

thehmsbeagle writes "Because the part I read was about how this girl found her boyfriend's porn, felt weird, initiated a pretty non-judgmental conversation about it, and having talked about it, realized that this was no big deal and not something she needed to continue to worry about."

Yeah, but only a woman could take a subject as interesting as discovering her boyfriend's porn stash, and turn it into something as boring as yet another conversation about the nature and health of their relationship.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:52 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

I gave my husband a subscription to Playboy for his birthday. I don't personally care for porn, but he enjoys looking, does that make me weird?
posted by JujuB at 6:53 PM on August 24, 2007

I once had to sit through a tearful confessional from an extremely decent guy, someone I had known for years as a patient and also outside of that, two kids, etc., breakdown in humiliation that his wife was divorcing him because she found porn on the computer. He's remarried to a wonderful woman now. But it was sad and liberating to explain to him that it was his wife, not he, who was the fuck-up.
posted by docpops at 7:02 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

Uh, ok, her anti-masturbation shit is presumably nuts, but what is weird about the anti-rape stuff?

What's nuts about it is it's all of a parcel with each other. She's mortified that her teenage son looks at porn because she believes that he will inevitably become a rapist as a consequence. As a result, she's disowned her son, wishes him dead -- because she didn't raise her fetuses to be women rapers, and she explicitly puts the theoretical rape of a theoretical woman, ahead of the real life of her own son.

In short, she's barking mad.

I noticed this article last week, and as I did, shouted to my 19 year old art student feminist daughter to take a look at it -- to have her read it just in case my take on it was skewed by my masculine flippant tendencies. She was even more horrified by it than I was, and thought the woman was almost certainly clinically insane.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:05 PM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

If this article were true, and she had genuinely asked her partner if he was a bestialist pedophile on the basis of his looking at naked ladies, she would indeed be a fucked-up psychobitch. But no-one in her article-writing position could be that naive. She's clearly making most of this up to get ad revenue and for that I salute her.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:07 PM on August 24, 2007

I want to know that if I want to us to try tantric sex (which I read about in my yoga magazine and actually do want to try at some point)

Yeah, we've got a deep thinker here
posted by rxrfrx at 7:21 PM on August 24, 2007

Leaving Biting Beaver aside for a moment, I'm really embarrassed by the folks who slammed the woman in the original link as a "cunt" and "bitch." If you actually take the time to breathe as you read her post and bother to get past your initial kneejerk reaction, you'll see she's done a really honest and open thing here, taking us through her thought process as she moves beyond her own kneejerk reaction to a kinder, more open and accepting space. It's a very cool thing to watch, even if she may not have jumped feet first into ethical slut territory or something.

Every one who insulted her in this thread is acting like an asshole, and is an embarrassment to MeFi.
posted by mediareport at 7:32 PM on August 24, 2007 [3 favorites]

Yeah, we've got a deep thinker here

Oh, come on. She's trying, and is open to learning about new kinds of sex. Jesus, what more do you want from her at this point? She's handled this just fine, and seems to be headed in a decent direction.
posted by mediareport at 7:35 PM on August 24, 2007

By this definition, I'm a rapist. I ask my wife for sex once a day, on average. Hell, sometimes twice... If that doesn't fit nagging, I don't know what does...

...But what she's really doing is trivializing rape. Paired with her other writings, I am almost convinced that any sex without an elaborate "may I" ritual in front of it is rape. Don't misunderstand me - rape is an extremely horrific crime in my personal pantheon of sins - one for which there can be no mitigating factors - eg I can find myself in positions where I might find it appropriate to murder someone.. perhaps even a moral imperative for that murder...

I think one of the reasons there's a bit of disconnect about rape sometimes is that sometimes one gets the feeling that there are men who are against rape because they feel it defiles something beautiful, or even is somehow an act of disrespect man to man, i.e., the rapist is disrespecting the father or husband of the woman more so than the woman herself. This is exemplified when rape is seen as the crime that the husband or father must seek vengeance for when it's some stranger who overrides the woman's autonomy, but it's completely, unthinkably laughable to consider there's anything amiss when the same autonomy is worn down by continual nagging by the husband.

I'm not saying that's rape - that's definitely a harsh way to put it - but I guess the idea is, he should pay attention & keep listening to his partner. They don't have to have "an elaborate 'may I' ritual" but really one also shouldn't have to be constantly nagging, if things are going well. He should be able to tell when the mood's right, and know how to get that mood going, and if he hits a slump, know how to talk about it or work it through, or compromise, or whatever.

basically, what's criminal about rape is that the woman's autonomy is taken away, she's forced to engage in the most intimate of acts against their will. Sometimes it seems that some people just notice the "some freaky guy has sex with her, eww" part, and don't appreciate that it's really about self-empowerment and personal choices and that kind of crap.

The Save Brandon link is really sad, but I have to say the comments there are pretty sad too. She claims that the pregnancy of her middle child was the result of a violent marital rape, so it is possible that she has deep psychological problems about this kid that go beyond just the fact that he's watching porn, and the fact that he's letting her catch him watching porn may well be his way of acting out. So I really don't know if it's as simple as this lady just being a simple nutjob. Maybe I'm just being too generous here, but... trying to do a little devil's advocating.
posted by mdn at 7:44 PM on August 24, 2007 [1 favorite]

You may well be right, mdn, about BitingBeaver's issues having to do with a violent marital rape, but from a child-welfare point of view that doesn't matter. She's probably fucking up her kid mentally. Whether she's doing it because she's a twisted fuck or because she has her own issues stemming from earlier trauma is immaterial; when you become a parent you assume responsibility for controlling your own shit.
posted by Justinian at 7:53 PM on August 24, 2007

he wasn't having sex with her resisting, sleeping self, but even if he had, I'd still say it wasn't rape, given the consent.
posted by Arturus at 8:45 PM on August 24

Really? Somebody continuing sex with a struggling person is okay? Consent, once given, can't be retracted?
posted by joannemerriam at 8:23 PM on August 24, 2007

dersins writes "Wait, there are people who don't have their browser set to automatically clear history, etc. every time they close it?"

That kind of defeats the purpose of the history function doesn't it?

davy writes "(All those with absolutely nothing to hide please post your browser histories, your complete financial data and all your daily diary entries for the past 10 years.)"

Anyone I'm getting squelchy with is welcome to that data, strangers on the internet not so much.

pardonyou? writes "mgrimm: She should have named the sites.

"I agree. I could really use some fresh links."

But they were for pay links. Who needs pointers to those?
posted by Mitheral at 8:58 PM on August 24, 2007

Jeez! A little bestiality and everybody gets all "EEkkk, are you some kind of pervert!!?!"
No, I like to dip-dabble my eyes in a little donkey-pig-woman action. is that so wrong?

My wife caught me in some serious newsgroup downloading action back in the day.
I've chilled out on that, but it's always something we will have between us...
posted by Balisong at 9:28 PM on August 24, 2007

"If you actually take the time to breathe as you read her post and bother to get past your initial kneejerk reaction, you'll see she's done a really honest and open thing here, taking us through her thought process as she moves beyond her own kneejerk reaction to a kinder, more open and accepting space. It's a very cool thing to watch, even if she may not have jumped feet first into ethical slut territory or something."

My reaction to the writer was pretty negative, like most of the other commenters in this thread. However, I really like your comment. If one takes a generous view of the writer, she's really doing a pretty good job of dealing with a difficult subject (for her).

And I think that more women than we might expect, given the comments in this thread, feel threatened by their male partners' porn consumption. I think it's much more likely for men than women to enjoy porn regardless of how satisfied they are in their sex life. Unless a woman is inclined toward polyamory, she's likely to be satisfied by a good sex life with her partner. Men, in contrast, are more likely to enjoy looking at other women, or even having sex with them, even if they're entirely happy with their sex life with their partner and completely in love with them. Men like sex, so do women. But men like sex with many different (attractive) women. Those are generalizations, they'll get me in trouble with some of my fellow feminists, but with the appropriate disclaimers, I think they are largely true.

Because of this different point of view, then, it can be hard for us, as men and women, to understand each other. As crude and reductive as it is, I do think that there's truth to the idea that men are ruled by their penises—at least that's true as far as sexual attraction goes. We masturbate a lot and sexual photos and movies of attractive women are going to to turn us on even if we're 110% happy with our sex lives. We'll seek this stuff out, even if we're completely happy with our sex lives. But since this is much less true for most women, most women are inclined to think that an interest in porn indicates a lessened interest in them, as sex partners.

I'm not saying that women stop being turned on by other men and porn when they're sexually happy in a relationship. I'm just saying that they're much less likely to feel any sort of a need to then add to this with porn than are men. Well, I think even that statement will get me in some trouble. What I mean is that while a woman might add a little spice to her sex life, alone or with her partner, by consuming porn, she's much less likely to be up late at night searching it out. You know?

Or maybe you don't. Here's one way of explaining it. I use porn, I have since I was a teen. And while my day-to-day experience of it is pretty humdrum—with "humdrum" being defined as "able to get me off pretty damn quickly", mind you—occasionally I'll come across an image, or a scene in a movie, that literally knocks the breath out of me, makes me light-headed with erotic desire. These moments are genuinely the most singly powerful moments in my sex life, barring a very, very few specific actual sexual experiences. Now, my point here is that I just don't believe that most women do, or even can, respond to pornographic images that way. Not as immediately and powerfully visceral. That's why men truly do get addicted to porn, for some weakened value of "addiction". That's also, possibly, why it might not be beneficial for their relationships because they may come to see that variety of stimulation as what's supposed to be normative for their actual sex lives.

Anyway, as someone who's both sex-positive and a feminist, I'm thrilled that so many more women these days are much more sexually expressive, interested themselves in porn, and don't find their SO's porn habits threatening. But I think they're still the minority, even among the progressive and sexually well-adjusted.

It should be said, too, that for the overwhelming majority of male porn consumers, what we're talking abour here is men masturbating to porn. It seems like when this subject comes up, it's usually discussed as if the men were politely viewing the porn before they go take a cold shower. If you think about this porn consumption as inevitably a masturbatory session, then you can also see how many women might be threatened by it. Put it this way: how many men, even among the commenters here, wouldn't feel threatened if they discovered that their SOs were masturbating four or five or more times as often as they were having sex with them? Wouldn't some men wonder if their partners might not be satisfied with their sex lives?

I've known both men and women who think that there's no reason either partner would or should masturbate in a happy, normal relationship. So, my point is that these feelings of being threatened aren't as wacky and marginalized as some seem to think. Personally, I hope that we reach the point where this is as crazy as many think. But I don't think it's this uncommon, yet.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:30 PM on August 24, 2007 [7 favorites]

Regarding bitingbeaver:

"She claims that the pregnancy of her middle child was the result of a violent marital rape, so it is possible that she has deep psychological problems about this kid that go beyond just the fact that he's watching porn, and the fact that he's letting her catch him watching porn may well be his way of acting out."

Wow, that piece of information really adds, and somewhat changes, the whole thing. I think you're right—it's hard for me to believe, given the things she's written, that her feelings about that rape haven't spilled out onto her relationship with her son. That he's the one she's caught looking at porn, that he's repeatedly been caught (she says that he's looked at it "minutes" after he's been restored access to the computer after having it taken away for looking at porn) really implies to me that there's something dysfunctional about their relationship.

Anyway, like most here, I found most of her list to be right on the money and something that most men should read. But the "nagging equals rape" rule, and those like it, are problematic because the behavior being referred to can be something like rape, or it can be just the normal stuff of relationships. She's getting at something important, but at the same time it's emphatically not the universal truth she's making it out to be.

And that really gets to the heart of what's wrong with the things of hers that I've just read. She's as Manichean, as black-and-white universal-statements-about-morality as any Bible-thumping patriarchist we could think of. And she's primarily motivated by fear and anger, also like many of those patriarchal arch-conservatives. Even if there's a social connection—and I think there is—between porn (as it is usually expressed) and misogyny and rape, the fact that she can't see the long distance between her teenage son looking at what is probably inoffensive porn, even to most feminists, and her son raping a woman...well, that's an example of someone whose moral reasoning is badly broken. To me, that actually makes her scary in a way that I find many other people scary. They're dangerous people, in their way.

All that said, as someone who's worked in rape crisis, I do find the general point she's trying to make in that list to be an important and correct point. We culturally try to ignore the very real omnipresence of rape by denying it in a couple of ways. We deny the frequency which it occurs, and we find all sorts of ways to claim that what is really rape, isn't. If anyone has trouble believing this, just consider that it is only in the last twenty or so years that jurisdictions in the US have even started to recognize the possibility of rape within the context of a marriage. Until recently, in many places it simply wasn't possible to claim you were raped by your husband.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:47 PM on August 24, 2007 [2 favorites]

I'm a horrible person since the whole situation is quite sad, but this Biting Beaver post about how evil mens are in ur forest, drinking "illegally bought" six packs, poaching animals, and planning ur raep, made me laugh. Lulz indeed. (ED NSFW!)

Took me a second to realize she didn't even actually see any men in the forest.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:55 PM on August 24, 2007

I think this thread is full of a lot of defensive posturing, and it's total bullshit. While men are socialized to jerk off to images of "whores" gagging on monster cocks, women just aren't. Some women actually like porn, although personally I prefer it to have a little less implied violence and misogyny involved. But getting to that point is not something that just happens one day all of a sudden.

Women (a lot of them) are raised to reject sexuality. To watch porn, to masturbate, to have sex - makes you "dirty," it makes you a "whore," and not a good girl worth marrying or whatever the goal is. It makes you someone who should BE in those movies, or down behind the bleachers blowing the football team or whatever. So SURPRISE when a lot of women have hangups about when their boyfriends regularly have orgasms to images of "sluts" getting fucked within an inch of their lives. Most women I know couldn't admit to masturbating until they were college-aged or older. Some still can't admit to it. Some still can't even DO it, because their families/culture/beliefs or overall social pressure have fucked them up too much to do it. Contrast that adolescence with every pop culture artifact that depicts a young boy with a skin mag, doing what comes naturally.

Give any woman a round of applause for getting over that and being able to be comfortable and healthy in their own sexuality, in a way that is inclusive of porn and other subjects which are traditionally considered part of a male-exclusive sexual realm. If you disagree, check out your porn aisle and look for how closely tied porn sexuality is tied with the quoted buzzwords above. I don't think calling out a woman for unpacking her feelings about this loaded issue really works, you know? You can't shout "prude" when she's trying to overcome something that obviously has been a struggle, and manages to come to an uneasy middle ground in the end without breaking up with her bf in an "omg pr0n" fashion.
posted by SassHat at 10:29 PM on August 24, 2007 [4 favorites]

With my last girlfriend, her question wasn't "Do you watch porn?" it was "Where can we find porn that shows Japanese anime chicks being raped by tentacles?"
posted by Clay201 at 1:11 AM on August 25, 2007 [1 favorite]

Where can we find porn that shows Japanese anime chicks being raped by tentacles?"

You too?
posted by rougy at 1:14 AM on August 25, 2007

Suprisingly little defensiveness in this thread.

Yes, I expected an angst-ridden discussion but instead I found a "FFS of course he looks at porn - get over it" thread. Good. Our pretend-surprise at people's interest in the visual representation of sex is hypocritical and prevents us having a proper discussion about what is acceptable and what is not.

Fireplace tools? I'm on here every night looking at hot chicks and you're looking at fireplace tools? Are you dead inside?

Brilliant.
posted by bobbyelliott at 1:16 AM on August 25, 2007

Long time lurker, but I just had register just to favorite pastabagel's comment.

Best five bucks I ever spent.
posted by preparat at 2:12 AM on August 25, 2007

heh. *Toasts preparat*

You've come out for a good cause. Welcome!
posted by taz at 3:28 AM on August 25, 2007

beanplating porn

It HAD to be done
posted by Sparx at 3:39 AM on August 25, 2007

52. If you thought pastabagel's comment was hilarious you are a rapist.

53. I did.
posted by Joeforking at 3:52 AM on August 25, 2007 [1 favorite]

I thought pastabagel's comment was somewhere between hilarious and pretty credible, actually.

And I'd have a bit of a problem with somebody snooping, but I guess we'd talk about it and work that out.

Mainly, I'd give her a guided tour of whatever porn I thought was worth keeping around, so she could get some additional insight into what I found sexually interesting. Presented in the right spirit, the discussion might lead to some really amazing, discovery-filled sex.
posted by pax digita at 4:22 AM on August 25, 2007 [2 favorites]

After reading all the comments here before clicking through to the article, I was expecting to read some hand-wringing, hair-pulling freak-out by some chick about OMG PORN! I didn't find that. What I found was some girl who was likely raised in a household like mine with the same sort of sexual standards and values passed on by my parents and who, I think, handled finding her boyfriend's porn rather better than I have seen some of my friends handle it.

A cunt? A bitch? Hardly. She found something that was somewhat outside the realm of her experience, something she'd had a negative experience with before (previous porn-looking boyfriend telling her she was "inadequate"), and that raised some pretty normal doubts in her mind. Instead of going ballistic and calling him a perv and kicking him to the curb, she flat out asked him about it and discussed it with him, which is a mature thing to do.

I grew up in a household where sex simply wasn't discussed. It was something you waited to do until you were married. We didn't have sex-ed in school. The only porn I saw until I was in my mid-twenties has been a few issues of Playboy, which, I would say, is far on the soft-core side. I knew guys liked looking at naked pictures of women, but I certainly didn't have much of a clue about the vast realm of stuff out there, until I ran across my boyfriend's (now husband) porn stash that contained things far more hard-core than Playboy. Far, far more hard-core.

I watched some of the tapes and paged through the magazines, and yes, I did get a little freaked out ... not that I didn't think guys looked at porn, but because I wondered all the things she wondered: was that the kind of girl/guy he liked, was this the sort of stuff he was into, was he going to expect me to be into this too and do this stuff, was there some even more hard-core stuff hidden somewhere else. We'd had pretty vanilla sex up to that point, and so what I had found seemed at odds with the person I thought I was living with.

When he got home from work, I asked him about it. He was embarrassed that I had found it. I was embarrassed that I had run across it while cleaning house. We muddled through a few hours of talking about sex, sexual preferences, and porn. It wasn't an easy conversation for either of us, but it was important that we had it. Sex is an important part of a relationship, and being matched well in that department, having at least some of the same preferences, is also important. If my future potential husband was going to one day expect me to suddenly be into bondage (or water-sports, or whatever), it's something I wanted to know in advance, because maybe I wasn't going to be into it or even interested in finding out if I could be interested ... and so maybe we might not be right for each other sexually.

In the end, I learned how my boyfriend viewed porn, why he liked porn, why he liked the particular kinds of porn he liked, and what his expectations about our own sexual relationship were. It was one of the more important conversations we had in our early relationship. We both learned a lot about each other and ourselves. Some time later, I asked him what other sorts of porn was out there, and he took me to a porn superstore to see the variety (mind you, this was at the birth of the internet -- you still really had to go to stores to get it). Most of it was not at all to my tastes, but we did find a few things I was interested in getting, and so he then got to learn something about my fantasies, as did I.

I never did develop a taste for porn of any sort. My husband still collects it, watches it, uses it (I assume, since his stash has grown in the last 15 years). We still have fairly vanilla sex, and we are both OK with that. He enjoys his fantasy kinks on his own time, and I don't feel pressured to do anything I wouldn't want to do, and because we did talk about it early on, I know he isn't one day going to expect that to change suddenly.

I think some of the comments in this thread are wrong-headed. I don't think she really handled finding her boyfriend's porn badly at all. She handled it the best she knew how, didn't seem overly freaked out about it, and in the end seemed OK with it all. I also think, if he had said he was into watching gay porn because some day he'd like to try gay sex, that it would have been perfectly OK for her to say that maybe he needed to work that out before they continued their relationship ... or if he'd said he was into bestiality for her to tell him to get lost immediately. We all have our sexual preferences in relationships. Sometimes porn can be something a person merely fantasizes about, and sometimes it can be something a person would actually like to engage in. It's good in a relationship to know where your significant other is coming from on that point. It's best to get it out in the open early on than to find out years later your husband would really like to tie you up and pee on you when you have no interest at all in doing that (not my husband, but happened to a friend).

Sorry for the long comment. There were a lot of comments I wanted to respond to, but rather than do that, I decided to just have my say. Take it as you will.
posted by Orb at 6:40 AM on August 25, 2007 [5 favorites]

She needs an editor, but she could turn this into a terrific Op-Ed for The Onion.

It could have been worse.
posted by Coventry at 6:52 AM on August 25, 2007

"It's best to get it out in the open early on than to find out years later your husband would really like to tie you up and pee on you when you have no interest at all in doing that (not my husband, but happened to a friend)."

OMG! Did she kick him to the curb?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:55 AM on August 25, 2007

EB: They are still together, so I guess they worked that out. It did freak her out a bit though to be presented with the concept out of the blue while already in bed getting busy. He, ahem, handled the presentation of it poorly. They had been married for about a decade when it happened, and the most "outrageous" thing he'd ever wanted to do up to that point had been having sex in a car, so it was a bit of a shock to her (which I then had to hear ALL about).
posted by Orb at 7:01 AM on August 25, 2007

Well, I was being sarcastic. It's probably just the mood I'm in right at the moment, but I'm feeling cranky about intolerant views on other people's sex preferences. Your "bestiality" thing rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, I've known a couple of people who (I'm pretty sure) at least a little bit like bestiality porn (one male, one female) and, frankly, it weirded me out a little bit. But it's not something that I would "kick someone to the curb" about. That response reflects a definite moral judgment—you don't end a relationship with someone when you learn they like, say, big breasts in porn. But if you learn they like dog/woman porn, for example, then that means that they are unacceptable partners? Why? The only reason, it seems to me, is that there's a moral judgment against them being made. There's "something wrong" with them.

And while some sexual tastes are far enough from my sensibilities to make me at least mildly uncomfortable, almost none of them cause me to make a judgment about someone's character. There's something about people willing to make such negative judgments that rubs me the wrong way.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:10 AM on August 25, 2007 [1 favorite]

I guess that would depend on whether they merely enjoyed watching bestiality or whether it was something they wanted to actually do. I probably wouldn't kick someone to the curb for wanting to watch it sometimes (though I would never be interested in seeing it), but I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who really wanted to do it. I have as much right to be icked out about it as someone else has to want to do it or watch it, but maybe we wouldn't be a good match in a relationship. Sorry, but I think having sex with animals is wrong. People can have all the sex with animals they want, but that doesn't mean I have to be in a relationship with them, or that I want to hear about it or see it.

I am as tolerant about sexual preferences as I am about religion, which is very tolerant. Anyone can do whatever they like, so long as they don't expect me to do it too, because I have my own kinks and preferences which I don't expect anyone to just except and put up with in order to be tolerant of them, not in a relationship. If my husband were to say he wanted to have sex with sheep and horses, I would probably question whether or not we should stay married. I have the right to that, just as he would have the right to question our relationship if I suddenly disclosed I was into doing something he found utterly distasteful and wrong.

Sorry if you think wanting to have sexual interests in my relationship that are somewhat on the same course and don't offend me makes me judgmental. I think I have the right to judge who I am married to and whether or not I want certain things in my life.
posted by Orb at 7:33 AM on August 25, 2007 [1 favorite]

"Sorry if you think wanting to have sexual interests in my relationship that are somewhat on the same course and don't offend me makes me judgmental. I think I have the right to judge who I am married to and whether or not I want certain things in my life."

Sure you do, and I agree with this, even though I disagree with the underlying moral judgment involved in it. But the same argument can, and is, made about, say, a man who wants to be married only to a skinny woman or a woman who swallows or who was a virgin before they married. You may (or may not) feel that these are unacceptable requirements. But, as a said, they're justified on the same grounds that yours are.

And, as in your case, I agree that it should be broadly acceptable for people to have whatever personal preferences for who they want to be in a relationship with, even if I disagree with the substance of those preferences.

An argument is sometimes made that bestiality is harmful to animals, and on that basis I find a repugnance to it acceptable. Otherwise, though, I think the repugnance is more visceral and less rational. And in that I see echoes of all sorts of other formerly common and still common morally judgmental reactions to some minority sexual tastes. That bothers me.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 7:41 AM on August 25, 2007

Oh my GOD PORN!!! Shocked!!

Hey girl get a man.

ok i'm out
posted by zouhair at 7:55 AM on August 25, 2007

She handled it the best she knew how, didn't seem overly freaked out about it, and in the end seemed OK with it all.

I respect her honesty in writing the piece, and that this probably isn't her final sathoughts on the matter, but the entire episode seemed odd. They've been together a year and a half and never talked about this? She's embarassed? He's embaraseed? And they're having sex? They sounded like kids instead of adults, going through the motions of being adults without ever really growing up.

Despite the writer's emotional and mental growth, some of her final thoughts still seem stuck in the child mode.

I still cringe at the thought of those site names and the picture of the whole scenario.

That's not accepting. That's "OMG Gross, EW, EW!" Jeez, it's just fantasy.

I am glad to know he does it because I don’t want any secrets. I don’t, however, need to know his favorite site, character, or image.

You really should know your partner's favorite site, character or image. It offers a deeper level of communciation and great emotional bonding and it's pretty damn hot.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 AM on August 25, 2007 [2 favorites]

(snip) Despite the writer's emotional and mental growth, some of her final thoughts still seem stuck in the child mode.

(snip) That's the thing, you see. That whole outlook of being disgusted by any sign of sexuality from your boyfriend that doesn't fit a traditional mold is a throwback from an outdated and rapidly disintegrating social structure.

(snip) I'm thrilled that so many more women these days are much more sexually expressive, interested themselves in porn, and don't find their SO's porn habits threatening. But I think they're still the minority, even among the progressive and sexually well-adjusted.

For those of us who are interested in the ways Metafilter's readerbase differs from society at large, this thread is a gem.

I read the piece and I thought the author was brave, open-minded, and even-handed. Most posters here seem to agree. But at the same time, posters here have largely had a negative reaction to the author of this piece. Why?

Imagine if the author were a regular MeFi reader -- she would probably be quite insulted by now.
posted by Laugh_track at 8:22 AM on August 25, 2007

the author was brave, open-minded, and even-handed

Talking with your partner about sex isn't brave, it's normal.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:38 AM on August 25, 2007

You really should know your partner's favorite site, character or image. It offers a deeper level of communciation and great emotional bonding and it's pretty damn hot.

Brandon Blatcher for the win!

(Seriously. Very good advice there. And not just because I think you should be dressing up as an anime chick or a Playboy bunny or whateverthehell. It is, as my boyfriend constantly pounds into me any time we've crossed wires on something, about communication)

(Ok, maybe "pounds into me" wasn't the right phrase. Does that make him a rapist now?)
posted by bitter-girl.com at 8:52 AM on August 25, 2007 [1 favorite]

that there's a moral judgment against them being made

I know that in our dissatisfaction with tradition and religion we've grown squeamish about giving any hint of moral judgment, but what about aesthetic judgment? Plenty of people around here probably draw conclusions about others based on the music they listen to, the movies they enjoy, the books they read. Porn, overall, is awful dumb. There's that endless repetition of the same string of sexual acts, the same stock attitudes and situations, scene after scene, that makes watching porn regularly seem as brainless as following professional wrestling or monster truck rallies. And we're okay making judgments about monster truck rallies, aren't we?

Do you ever look through the forums where people trade free porn? Don't you ever feel like you're slipping into a pathetic absence of any personal dignity as you read the titles of the movies, as you notice the enthusiastic obsessions with teenagers, breast size, anal sex? I'm an old lonely bachelor living in a world of easy access to free porn, so it has some pull for me. But I think that pull is similar to the pull that makes people channel surf for five straight hours, it's boredom lacking imagination seeking novelty. A long way from a noble expression of sexual freedom. Don't you make judgments about people who you see plopped on the couch night after night, staring at the tube? Do you want a relationship with a couch potato?

Did you see the movie Little Children? In that movie the main character discovers her husband masturbating at the computer, with a pair of panties he'd ordered over the Internet on his face. She then finds wadded kleenex all of his office. Watching, you feel her ick towards her husband's behaviour, the depth of her disappointment. It's not moral judgment that makes the audience laugh at the husband, and to dismiss him as rewarding partner for her.

Sure, maybe porn can be fun when occasionally shared between partners in relationships. And it's natural for guys everywhere to view it. But it's usually lacking any merit beyond it's ability to help you get off, and it's loaded with attitudes (Black Dicks in White Chicks 8! Meat My Ass 3! Make Me Gag 15! Daddy's Little Girl 11! Dirty Filthy Whores 24!) that are usually unwelcome out in society, so I don't think it's unnatural for someone unfamiliar with pornography to feel some distaste, disappointment and confusion at its discovery.
posted by TimTypeZed at 10:05 AM on August 25, 2007 [3 favorites]

mdn: basically, what's criminal about rape is that the woman's autonomy is taken away, she's forced to engage in the most intimate of acts against their will.

The irony being that BitingBeaver also wants to take autonomy away, preferring to make other people's decisions about sex - what they watch, or what they do - for them. And if you could really violate someone by nagging their resilience and autonomy away, BitingBeaver would fall under her own definition of rapist.
posted by kid ichorous at 10:15 AM on August 25, 2007

Talking with your partner about sex isn't brave, it's normal.

Those two properties are thankfully not mutually exclusive.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:38 AM on August 25, 2007

TimTypeZed: Porn, overall, is awful dumb. [...] that makes watching porn regularly seem as brainless as following professional wrestling or monster truck rallies. And we're okay making judgments about monster truck rallies, aren't we?

See, there's this thing called the Golden Mean, and it's this virtuous model that allows you to enjoy such lowbrow entertainment as WWF Smackdown and still earn your PhD. It allows you to enjoy a candy bar or beer every few days and still run marathons.

Blaming porn for lethargy or lack of achievement is as bad as blaming corn chips for obesity. These things are only unhealthy when taken to abnormal excess. I'd hasten to add that exercise, modesty, and even the fine arts are also bad by the shovelful.

[Porn is] loaded with attitudes

No, people are loaded with them already, though most of them are pretty basic and won't be indexed in the Ars Poetica. People didn't start indulging in interracial fantasies with the premiere of Othello, and they're not going to stop when someone decides it's not nearly as well-written as Hamlet.
posted by kid ichorous at 10:58 AM on August 25, 2007

I don't think Biting Beaver fully appreciates the mitigating effects porn has on rape of the 17th kind (second clause).
posted by SBMike at 12:05 PM on August 25, 2007

Why didn't PornBoi keep his stash in the time-honored place, so that the neighbor kids could have a teachable moment?

Lucky he was downloading porn and not Bible stories -- that would have been quite the discussion here.
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 12:35 PM on August 25, 2007

Cathedral: rape is an extremely horrific crime in my personal pantheon of sins - one for which there can be no mitigating factors - eg I can find myself in positions where I might find it appropriate to murder someone.. perhaps even a moral imperative for that murder... However, I cannot see any justification, ever, for rape. I'm pretty firm on that.

There are degrees and mitigating factors for rape. For example, two sound-minded parties might agree to sex in a context in which one or both of them cannot consent legally. Comparing age of consent laws in different states and countries shows that at least one determining factor for whether an identical act is or isn't rape is mere geography. This is a very different example from, say, someone being violently assaulted in a back alley or jail.
posted by kid ichorous at 2:54 PM on August 25, 2007

Clarification: sex is intended as a noun, not a verb, in the above paragraph. As in: "agree to some cake." Not: "let us sex at once."
posted by kid ichorous at 3:00 PM on August 25, 2007

I don't see consensual sex as rape.

There may and probably are other, legal issues if one of those parties cannot legally consent, however, to slap the rape tag on it - (wait for it) - trivializes rape.

Just because you're 18 and your main squeeze is 16 shouldn't end up with you getting slapped with the "rapist" label... Perhaps temporal impropriety? I don't have all the answers, but yeah... That's how I feel.
posted by Cathedral at 3:43 PM on August 25, 2007

"There may and probably are other, legal issues if one of those parties cannot legally consent, however, to slap the rape tag on it - (wait for it) - trivializes rape."

That's because you think that everything you define as "consensual sex" is trivial relative to rape. Some people disagree with you about a) labeling what you're labeling as "consensual sex" and b) that it's relatively trivial.

Suppose that there was a drug that made someone so intensely horny that 99% of the people who take immediately are willing to have sex with the nearest person, regardless even of gender or age. Imagine that you were given that drug unknowingly by someone you were repulsed by who you then had sex with. Was that consensual because you not only said "yes" (implicitly or explicity), but you initiated it very enthusiastically?

Of course not. You didn't actually consent. Your ability to give consent was taken away from you.

That's the same argument that is made about people under the influece giving consent. And while reasonable people may feel that being slightly tipsy isn't a sufficient level of impaired judgment to imply that consent isn't possible, there is for many or most people a level of common alcoholic inebriation that does achieve a level of eliminating the possibility of actual consent. If you'll accept that, then you might ask yourself how we decide that level is reached for every individual person given that one person might reach that level with three beers and another only with ten. Ask yourself if you want to give free reign to those who want to rape people who go beyond consent at three beers by declaring that the limit is only surpassed at nine. Especially when, for example, we don't allow people to drive cars and such at much lower levels of intoxication.

I doubt that many people who believe as I do that rape does include things like having sex with someone who's impaired and unable to provide consent is comfortable with the idea that this includes levels of inebriation that correspond to a legal concept that is, nevertheless, pretty low and at which many of us regularly believe we can reliably decide to consent to sex. But we accept that there's some difficulty and ambiguity at the extreme because the simple truth is that alcohol has been the true "date rape" drug since forever. A lot of women are raped when they are passed out drunk, which I think even you will agree is incontrovertibly rape. And many more are raped when they are close to passing out and don't even have enough good judgment not to, say, drive their car into a wall at high speed. That's rape, too, even if it wasn't intended to be.

If that's a difficult concept, consider that many men whom you would consider incontrovertibly rapists themselves claim that what they did wasn't rape, that they didn't intend rape, they had sex with the woman who was saying "no" and crying because they were quite sure the woman actually wanted to have sex with them. You might think they are simply lying. Some probably are. Others sincerely believe this because they have a profound ability to delude themselves for their own gratification. So too might a husband believe that he couldn't possibly "rape" his wife, or a frat boy believe that he couldn't possibly "rape" a passed-out sorority girl who, while passed out, respnds physically to stimulation with arousal. She's aroused, right?

What the rapist intends or thinks about the act cannot itself be determinative. We do take intent into account in law, but usually only to determining where someone's crime is within gradations of severity of the same underlying crime. And, in this case, the crime in question has a particular history of violators being self-delusional about the nature of their crime—we don't give them much leeway in terms of assessing their actual motivations. Rightly so.

When we expand the notion of rape to include the areas that make you uncomfortable, what we're trying to do is to be sure to include all those things that, for the rape victim, share the essential trait of being violated in a sexual manner against their wishes. And in being sure to include those who were previously left without recourse because in the past we so narrowly defined "rape", and in combination with trying to dissuade potential rapists, we define rape inclusively enough that we enter the area of the things that give you, and even me, some pause. That's unfortunate, but the alternative is even moreso. That's the old way that put the onus on the woman prove that she explicitly said "no" and that she, in no shape or form, implied "yes". That's an approach that was heavily tilted toward the rapist. Now we are tilting in the direction of putting the burden of proof on the rapist that he actually had consent. That's good—and it's important to remember that in the US, the standard of "reasonable doubt" still applies.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:41 PM on August 25, 2007 [2 favorites]

Oh, and incidentally, before anyone gets in an uproar because I specified the sex of the rapist and victim in my preceding comment as male and female, respectively, let me say that I've been a hospital rape crisis advocate and have worked with male victims of rape. I know that men are raped. And while it's true that the overwhelming number of rapings of men are committed by other men, there's a small relative number of rapes of men committed by women. Yes, it's possible. I know it's possible and it happens.

However, the simple truth of the matter is that the number of sex crimes committed by women against men is extremely small relative to the number of sex crimes committed by men against women. Specifying the gender as I did is not misleading, it's the reality. The exceptions are darn important, and I agree with those who feel it's important to talk about male rape victims and female rapists because the victims have been previously left out in the cold with no one to speak for them. But, that said, insisting on an even-handedness about this when discussing rape in the US is to seriously misrepresent that actual reality of it. Rape in our culture is in many important respects essentially about misogyny and violence against women. That doesn't mean that it's the only thing rape is, or that it doesn't have dimensions that stretch far beyond this.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:50 PM on August 25, 2007

Ethereal Bligh: However, the simple truth of the matter is that the number of sex crimes committed by women against men is extremely small relative to the number of sex crimes committed by men against women. Specifying the gender as I did is not misleading, it's the reality.

I don't think anyone would hold that against your post, Ethereal. There are comparatively few rapes committed by women against men. What I do think is a little unrealistic, however, is that discussions of rape often tend to focus on hashing out the minutae of consent and on date-rape when there's such a serious problem of violent rape in American prisons. To confront the reality of rape in America, it's not only possible that more men are raped within prison than women outside of it, but also that these rapes are more brutal in nature and will go without any legal recourse.
posted by kid ichorous at 6:20 PM on August 25, 2007

And, in light of that, all these "51 ways to know if you're a rapist patriarch" lists and Fox-news spectaculars about keeping your daughter off MySpace strike me as very consciously head-in-the-sand.
posted by kid ichorous at 6:23 PM on August 25, 2007

Well, I agree with you about US prisons...except that rape is only one part of a much bigger problem. The hell-pits that our prisons are, coupled with just how many millions of men are in them, along with the socioeconomic factors involved in this, all mean that this is one gigantic mess brewing that very well may blow the hell up in our faces. But almost no one is talking about.

Anyway, I mostly agree with you.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:26 PM on August 25, 2007

There may and probably are other, legal issues if one of those parties cannot legally consent, however, to slap the rape tag on it - (wait for it) - trivializes rape.
posted by Cathedral at 6:43 PM on August 25

That's because you think that everything you define as "consensual sex" is trivial relative to rape (etc.)
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:41 PM on August 25

I agree with everything you said, EB, but let up on Cathedral - who was talking about age of consent laws ("Just because you're 18 and your main squeeze is 16 shouldn't end up with you getting slapped with the "rapist" label..."), not impaired adults.
posted by joannemerriam at 8:01 PM on August 25, 2007

Wow, according to B_B's rape list, I've definitely been raped dozens of times and "possibly" raped a few more (assuming of course it still applies if you switch the "her" and "she"s to their masculine form).

Oddly enough, I have nothing but fond memories of the handful of ladies kind enough to rape me. I guess I've internalized my misandrist self loathing.
posted by Ceci n'est pas une marionnette de chaussette at 8:46 PM on August 25, 2007

First off, I don't see myself getting offended by anything that can be put into text, so there's no need to ask EB to let off the gas on my account. :) But thank you jannemerriam - you summarized my point quite well.

Ethereal Bligh - You'd made a bunch of assumptions about my views that are completely incorrect... Let's examine, for instance, "That's because you think that everything you define as "consensual sex" is trivial relative to rape. Some people disagree with you about a) labeling what you're labeling as "consensual sex" and b) that it's relatively trivial." Aren't you jumping to a lot of conclusions about me, and what I think, based on a pretty small subset. Rape is not acceptable to me in any form.

But me snogging with my wife when we're both a couple of drinks to the wind is not it. Nagging someone into sex is not it. Joe Football player at 18 and Sally Cheerleader at 16 both enthusiastically coupling isn't it either. I don't see how you jump from those statements of my views to practically tarring me with the rapist brush... "A lot of women are raped when they are passed out drunk, which I think even you will agree is incontrovertibly rape." EVEN me? How did I become the rape apologist? Yes, it's rape. Who here thinks it's not? Not me. Again, seems as if you made some major flawed assumptions.

It might interest you to know that I've had first responder contact with a number of rape victims.. I've got no illusions about rape. I haven't been raped, but I live with people that have... Again, no illusions. So, to be honest, when I see someone with an agenda (Biting Beaver) that ends up turning almost all sex into "rape", it pisses me off, because there are real victims with real tragedies out there...

What's missing is context - go read her other writings... (googl ecache is your friend) In most of them she says things such as "sex (rape)'. In fact, it's hard to find any writing where the two, very different, things are disconnected. Taken in that context, the rape list becomes something different indeed.

tl;dr; Because you have a penis, you are not automagically guilty. Sex and rape are different.
posted by Cathedral at 9:18 PM on August 25, 2007

joannemerriam, even. Damn you, fingers!
posted by Cathedral at 9:19 PM on August 25, 2007

Laugh_track, out of curiosity, where were you putting my comment in the general spectrum of mefi comments you mentioned?
posted by shmegegge at 9:45 PM on August 25, 2007

But me snogging with my wife when we're both a couple of drinks to the wind is not it.

I think that there's a critical difference of context here, versus the drunken sex on a date scenario. Marital rape is certainly possible, but a situation where you've consented to sex many times before and accept it to be the standard, behavior with regard to implied and technical consent can reasonably be relaxed. Situations where you do not know the other person as well, where there is not automatically a continued contact with the person, stricter standards are needed. What BB's list lacks, more than anything else, is contextualization.

She's writing from the context of someone inclined not to consent, which is understandable because that's where the rape is. A majority of normal experience centers around people who are inclined to consent, and so don't need that elaborate of a set of guidelines, so it all seems rather silly. But in these situations, the understanding shouldn't be that these things don't apply, it should be that they are relaxed because of x,y, and z mitigating factors.
posted by Arturus at 6:57 AM on August 26, 2007

"How did I become the rape apologist? Yes, it's rape. Who here thinks it's not? Not me. Again, seems as if you made some major flawed assumptions."

Yes, I apologize. Somehow I had the idea that your chief argument was with the idea of rape including being anything under the influence. I completely agree about your statutory rape complaint. In fact, I happen to feel that the all this protecting children from sex (at least, among themselves) is bad. And I don't like just drawing the line at 18 and prohibiting sex across that line, either, which seems silly for a lot of high school senior aged people. I like the idea of it being based upon a sliding scale of age difference. Because I do agree that the there's a problem of damaging exploitation by a young teen and sufficiently older teen or adult. But calling two teens who have sex "rape"? Craziness. But I agree with you that BB is crazy.

My argument was mostly that there are good reasons for widening the idea of rape to include things like lack of consent due to impairment and other things. And, like I said, I do agree that it's a bit silly to claim that a couple (married or not) who is both legally intoxicated but right at the threshhold are engaging in rape because of it. The problem is that we have to theoretically include those marginal cases in order to include the cases that ought to be included. And, in practice, it just doesn't happen that rape accusations are made just because the woman has had two drinks. Like many things, a lot of the hypothetical crazy things people bring up to prove a point are actually rarely, if ever, seen in the real world. While, in contrast, we can now get prosecutions of rapes that occur when someone rapes someone who is passed-out (or nearly passed-out) on a bed in a fraternity house at a party.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:22 PM on August 26, 2007

No problem, EB... And I, also, agree with most of your points. :)
posted by Cathedral at 9:35 AM on August 27, 2007