September 12, 2001

5:25 AM

The Day America Grew Up."Let's hope this is what future historians write about yesterday's events. If not, we won't be here -- and won't deserve to be."
posted by mw (143 comments total)

Using the death of thousands to push this agenda is revolting.
posted by owillis at 5:36 AM on September 12, 2001

Interesting to see what the middle east thinks about this abhorrent attack - It's relatively frightening.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,550559,00.html
posted by Spoon at 5:41 AM on September 12, 2001

The "agenda", owillis, is the very continuation of life, liberty and our pursuit of happiness. You find that revolting? The death of thousands is revolting. The condemnation of it isn't. It is heroic and just.
posted by dagny at 5:41 AM on September 12, 2001

Using the death of thousands to push this agenda is revolting.

Quite.

The part I found most revolting/laughable was: "You’re afraid to admit you’re better, because you have also been taught to be humble, selfless, and peaceful at any price -- even towards bullies. You have been taught to feel guilty for your accomplishments, and to undercut them. This is your fatal weakness."

The U.S.? Humble? What planet is this guy living on?
posted by lia at 5:42 AM on September 12, 2001

The "agenda", owillis, is the very continuation of life, liberty and our pursuit of happiness.

I'm pretty sure it's not the why that owillis and I find spectacularly objectionable (nothing wrong with self-preservation!), dagny, but the how. Reactionary and xenophobic are two words that spring to my mind.
posted by lia at 5:45 AM on September 12, 2001

Bravo! That article crystallizes perfectly the situation that America is now in. Attacked BECAUSE of our ideals, BECAUSE of our strengths, and BECAUSE of our freedoms. We must never feel "guilty" for being free, prosperous, and American. Our nation should never apologize for the liberty, lifestyles, & material wealth that it has created. The example of America has inspired so many other nations and people to embark upon the same course. It is tragic & despicable that there remain societies & nations that wish us dead (literally) for our celebrations of freedom.
posted by davidmsc at 5:50 AM on September 12, 2001

Michelle Malkin: "Yesterday was our Pearl Harbor. Our generational wake-up call. Our bloody moment of shattered self-complacency.

It's time to grow up, get real, and finally grasp, like generations before us, that freedom is not free."
posted by dagny at 6:00 AM on September 12, 2001

No, never feel guilty for being free or prosperous. But perhaps questioning the cost for this freedom?

It is indeed tragic and despicable that nations or even people would wish you dead for your prosperity.

But perhaps if you tried to understand the dark side to your prosperity, the arrogance with which your government jams it's fat fingers down the throats of other nations, perhaps if you understood that being fat is not necessarily being well fed...

Perhaps then there would not be so much misunterstanding.

Dagny, if modern capitalism stood only for hard work and just pay, then this would not be the world we would be living in.
posted by tekki at 6:03 AM on September 12, 2001

If this is the way the US grows up, it's by realising (once more) that it not is a special flower, but a part of a big, nasty world, and that it too can suffer like Sarajevo or Rwanda or Somalia.

Did this happen because some people happen to resent the "lifestyles" of ordinary Americans? Fuck, no. It's because the global manifestation of American power is rendered grotesque by those who need to make monsters to defend their own monstrosities. (And, more recently, by the tendency of the US to strike from a distance. Enough of shields.) This was not about your SUVs and your frappucinos. This was not even about your Bill of Rights. It's because you are big, and you are there: an Everest for these fuckers to conquer.

It's the how.
posted by holgate at 6:07 AM on September 12, 2001

I wasn't around during Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but what was the US peoples reaction to the frying and death by radiation of tens of thousands of Japanese civilians?

I'm sure that most Palestinians wouldn't even realise that thousands of people died yesterday, nor would be able to place the US on a map. However, they would point to the 17,500 Palestinian civilians killed during the US sponsered Israeli occupation in 1973 I reckon.. Maybe even those half a million Iraqi children suffering from US sanctions..

We don't know who did this horrible act yet, but the fact that we can point fingers at so many people is an indication that American society is not as perfect as imagined.

Equality for all? Freedom for all? Prosperity for all?

hmm...
posted by Mossy at 6:07 AM on September 12, 2001

Some people say that the attack was because of the freedoms the American people have, but I doubt that.

Maybe it is because our capitalistic ideals have been taken too high, above other, more fundamental ideals? Like supporting honest and enduring governments in all the other countries of this world.

It's time to examine our own actions as well as the other's..
posted by Icestorm at 6:24 AM on September 12, 2001

Do other nations despise us for our prosperity? Or because they believe our prosperity came from exploiting them?

Do other nations despise us for our freedom? Or because they believe we have repressed them to maintain our own freedom?
posted by harmful at 6:45 AM on September 12, 2001

I'm sorry, but I simply do not believe this is about other nations who "hate" the US for it's prosperity, it's freedom or, thank you holgate, it's innovative coffee-flavored drinks. This is about a group or groups who believe that the there are no barriers to establishing an Islamic theocracy across the entire Middle East. Stop twittering about and stay focused. I have nothing but intuition and the events of the past ten years to support me, but I believe yesterday's events will prove to have been directed by Osama bin Laden, whose agenda is a simple and frequently stated one. The response of the US should match in its simplicity: the Afghanistani government must deliver bin Laden out of Afghanistan to American forces within, say, 48 hours, or those same American forces will turn Afghanistan into 625,000 square kilometers of glass in the middle of the sandy desert. I am as averse to war as any person I know - perhaps even more so, having grown up around a military family - but this isn't war, this is a simple trade. In this, there can be no other response but an in kind response. I would very willingly push whatever button it took to perform this act and send bin Laden on his way to his much anticipated meeting with Allah.
posted by m.polo at 7:05 AM on September 12, 2001

Getting back to the original post, I feel it necessary to point out that this Hurd fellow is very much pushing a political agenda. The last thing we need is for some Ayn Rand reading, objectivist crank to capitalize (pun very much intended) on this epic tragedy.l
posted by aladfar at 7:19 AM on September 12, 2001

HOLGATE, YOUR DRIBBLE MAKES ME WANNA BARF. Stick to what you know as your envy theory makes me laugh( can i forward that to the top desk big guy? you've lost my respect and it is just fine that you dont care.) The premises of America "growing up" is invalid, thus this clap trap is meaningless. Children dont drop atom bombs. This happened because it was our weakest security link. The Israelis have an expression for Palestinians, KILL THEM ALL. I can almost see that point of view. ITS ALL ABOUT THE BILL OF RIGHTS HOLGATE.
posted by clavdivs at 7:21 AM on September 12, 2001

What m.polo said.

And I find it absolutely repulsive that people continue to defend terrorists here. Murdering stewardesses with boxcutters? Ordering mothers to call their families and tell them they are about to die? And you question American values? To hell with Afghanistan AND Palestine and, if you defend these countries, to hell with you. They've more than earned what they're about to receive. Paving them is not only justified, it's a good start.
posted by UncleFes at 7:24 AM on September 12, 2001

A couple of things I heard or read since yesterday that have gotten me thinking about what all this talk of "growing up" means to me: 1.) People expressing shock that the military would feel the need to send warships to our own shores for defense, and 2.) an interviewed 20-year-old college student who stated that this was the worst thing in his lifetime. His parents had Vietnam, his grandparents, the world wars.

My initial thoughts: re #1: we call it defense, after all. It's telling that we have conducted so much of our defense beyond our shores that people can't comprehend the need to conduct it at home. re #2: what about the Gulf War? It's telling that this student doesn't consider it a significant factor? Why? Probably because it had a direct effect on most Americans (i.e., many deaths of Americans). Again, brings home the point that we conduct our dirty business abroad.

My conclusion, then, is just the opposite of the linked commentary (gee, no surprise there): we need to wake up to the fact that we are perceived as the threat to most of the rest of the world, and that we need to realize that this CAN have direct consequences.

Just my 2 cents worth this morning.
posted by tippiedog at 7:29 AM on September 12, 2001

clavdivs, only children type as though they were throwing a tantrum. ONLY children drop atom bombs, adults know better.

Only children say KILL THEM ALL, no free-thinking Israeli I have ever met has ever said that about palestinians. Not like that.

Your attitude is exactly the reason you were blind to this happening in the first place.

Please don't spew vitriol on the person nearest to you who offers up an opinion that is just different enough for you to lose your temper at.

While we are indeed losing sight of what may be going on, as m.polo very astutely pointed out...

Your attitude, and I hope that it is only your attitude in a state of shock and not your attitude all the time, is sickening, undereducated, and very very typical of what everyone OUTside the US thinks of Americans.

Selfish, and blind.
posted by monstre at 7:35 AM on September 12, 2001

<sarcasm> yeah! LETS NUKE THEM! Nuclear war fixes everything. We can do it BECAUSE WE HAVE THE BOMB. </sarcasm>
posted by bytecode at 7:36 AM on September 12, 2001

Re "agenda pushing": These comments utterly, utterly mystify me. When people spout garbage about turning the other cheek or questioning what we could have done to provoke such an attack, no comments about agendas are made. Why not?

Needless to say, I think the article was excellent in both content and tone.
posted by mw at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2001

yeah! LETS NUKE THEM! Nuclear war fixes everything. We can do it BECAUSE WE HAVE THE BOMB.


yeah! LETS BOMB THE WORLD TRADE CENTER! Terrorism fixes everything. We can do it BECAUSE WE CAN PENETRATED THEIR AIRPORT SECURITY.
posted by UncleFes at 7:45 AM on September 12, 2001

My comments on why other nations might hate us may or may not have had anything to do with the current terrorist situation. I'm sorry; that may be a discussion suited for another time, but irrelevant at the moment.

However, all the talk of "paving" Afghanistan sickens me. Let's assume for a moment that Osama bin Laden, perhaps even with the tacit approval of the Taliban, is behind this attack. (I agree that's the most likely case, but I hesitate to jump to conclusions.)

Even if action against the Taliban is justified, there are many people in Afghanistan who are victims of the Taliban's oppressive regime as well. Think of all the women being denied basic human rights because the Taliban's interpretation of the Koran makes them second-class citizens. Think of the religious minorities in the nation forced to wear identifying badges. Think of the desparate refugees on that ship that no one would allow to dock last month, and of all those trapped in Afghanistan who would still jump at such a slim hope of escape. Think of the rebel guerrillas still fighting to overthrow the Taliban regime as recently as their attack on Kabul yesterday. Do all of these people deserve our wrath as well?

I understand that if we choose to take military action against the Taliban, innocent civilians will die; while it saddens me, I accept that hard truth. But an act of pure, indiscriminate destruction against an entire nation would be as great an evil as the cowardly attack we witnessed yesterday.
posted by harmful at 7:50 AM on September 12, 2001

And you question American values?

You know what? What happened yesterday makes me absolutely sick (in fact, I threw up). I am not defending the terrorists. But you know what else? America does these sorts of things to the rest of the world, too. It's worth remembering that. If American values are capitalism and making a buck no matter what the cost, well, yeah, then I question them.
posted by binkin at 7:52 AM on September 12, 2001

yeah! LETS NUKE THEM! Nuclear war fixes everything. We can do it BECAUSE WE HAVE THE BOMB.

yeah! LETS BOMB THE WORLD TRADE CENTER! Terrorism fixes everything. We can do it BECAUSE WE CAN PENETRATED THEIR AIRPORT SECURITY.

I was going to make the point that your mentality was no different from the terrorists', UncleFes, but you seem to have done that for me.
posted by anapestic at 7:54 AM on September 12, 2001

More commentary from someone with an agenda [RealAudio, >30 min]. An interview with Leonard Piekoff who explains what made yesterday's attack possible.
posted by mw at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2001

America was attacked because it is the largest, wealthiest, open and free society in the world.

America was also attacked for it's bullying, unilateralist foreign policy approach.

Neither reason justifies this abhorrent inhuman attack, but we need to rethink our values.
posted by Loudmax at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2001

Using the death of thousands to push this agenda is revolting.

Using the death of thousands to try to squelch rational discourse and impose a silence of arrogant sympathy upon those trying to understand the situation and come to terms with it is revolting.
posted by rushmc at 8:00 AM on September 12, 2001

America does these sorts of things to the rest of the world, too.

Really? Please point out a time to me when "America" has plowed into civilian buildings during times of peace, murdering possibly 10s of thousands of innocent people, just to make a point, then consequentially all of us, the citizens of your demonized "America" danced wildly in the streets, praising God for the victory?

There is not a middle finger big enough for me to hold up to those who feel inclined to shrug their shoulders and make comments such as yours.
posted by glenwood at 8:08 AM on September 12, 2001

RE: Loudmax: Which values must we rethink? The ones which allowed us to become the largest, wealthiest and most open and free society in the world?

Is there something inherently wrong with that? (To anyone other than a cockeyed communist or a terrorist, that is.)

As for foreign policy, what our enemies consider to be bullying and unilateralist, our allies view as the appropriate position for the world's largest and strongest superpower. So to whose will do we bend? To whose values ought we subscribe -- those who stand with us, or those who hate us and all that we stand for anyway?

It's easy to say that we need to rethink our values, but it's much harder to demonstrate that there is a better set of values we should adopt.
posted by Dreama at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2001

If we "rethink our values" (which equals abandoning our allies and our interests abroad) then our enemies have won.

Force respects force, overwhelming and sustained force solves problems.
posted by MattD at 8:16 AM on September 12, 2001

Who the hell is Dr. Hurd? And why is he suddenly being quoted left and right with the intensity of Limbaugh's dittoheads?

Granted, I'm not known for keeping up with current events, but I really had never heard of this guy until yesterday. Went to the site, but I can't find any sort of "about" page.
posted by Su at 8:16 AM on September 12, 2001

so it's okay to kill thousands and thousands of people when it's a time of war?

During times of peace it's wrong to kill, but during times of war the rules change?

WHO THE HELL MAKES THESE RULES?!?

And who in hell decides when it's war time or peace time?

Is it war time now? Is it okay to kill now? Cuz my next door neighbour has been pissing me off something fierce lately...
posted by monstre at 8:18 AM on September 12, 2001

but we need to rethink our values.

The values of murderers and terrorists needing no rethinking, evidently.

The self-flagellation over this makes me throw up. Is America perfect? No. Do we murder stewardesses with boxcutters and force mothers to call their families and tell them they are about to die before we crash planes into buildings? Never. Time to put a permanent fix on this "problem."
posted by UncleFes at 8:19 AM on September 12, 2001

I didn't say we'd specifically rammed planes into buildings, but we have funded oppressive regimes, imposed sanctions that have caused thousands of civilians to die, given money to terrorist groups who've used it to kill thousands of innocent people. And what you call "peacetime" is a fabrication, because the US is involved at least monetarily in wartime actions in other countries. And all the while we tell the rest of the world how much better we are than everyone else - not quite dancing in the streets, but close.

If you think I'm shrugging my shoulders and dismissing what happened yesterday, you're wrong, but nothing I say here is going to convince anyone who disagrees with me and, most likely, vice versa. So of let's just tell everyone who disagrees to fuck off and pat our own backs and talk about how morally superior Americans are. It's easier that way.
posted by binkin at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2001

The response of the US should match in its simplicity: the Afghanistani government must deliver bin Laden out of Afghanistan to American forces within, say, 48 hours, or those same American forces will turn Afghanistan into 625,000 square kilometers of glass in the middle of the sandy desert.
... and kill millions of persons that have no clue about who Osama, Bush, or m.polo is. By doing that the US would not be defending itself against terror but committing an even more heinous act of terror than Bin Laden. It is exactly this total disrespect for the lives of innocents that characterizes a terrorist's mentality.
As for the linked page. I have to say that it is so totally off the mark that it cannot be rationally discussed, by anyone with an immediate knowledge of the world beyond their little neighbourhood. Also, it is guilty of, what can at best be described as sucking propaganda value for your pet ideolepsies from the corpses of untold thousands of victims of barbarity.
posted by talos at 8:23 AM on September 12, 2001

Do we murder stewardesses with boxcutters and force mothers to call their families and tell them they are about to die before we crash planes into buildings?

Do our military men rape Japanese civilians? Yes. Was that the action of a few sick individuals? Yes. Should our entire country be punished for "harboring" these people? No.

Further: Have our citizens ever gone into a Vietnamese village and killed unarmed civilians? Hmm.
posted by binkin at 8:24 AM on September 12, 2001

Dreama:

You are the largest, but not the wealthiest, nor the most free, and as far from the greatest nation as those you currently wish to pave over.

You have the most money, the most blood, the most arrogance, the most greed.

You have the least poetry, the least culture, the least of so many things that you do not even realize exist outside of your poor-valued little world.

I wish you could understand how not free you are, how the bible belt restricts more freedom than any socialist government could. Getting arrested for sexual preference, that is freedom? It still happens where you're from.

It horrifies the world.

Open? Only in some places. But oh so very closed to the rest of the world.

I'm sorry Dreama, but if you truly were what you say you are, then American would be a Utopia, and I would have been on the first flight over.
posted by monstre at 8:25 AM on September 12, 2001

I don't understand why people feel the need to see everything as black and white. The world is a complicated place, and people who don't recognize that place themselves in great peril.

Really? Please point out a time to me when "America" has plowed into civilian buildings during times of peace, murdering possibly 10s of thousands of innocent people, just to make a point, then consequentially all of us, the citizens of your demonized "America" danced wildly in the streets, praising God for the victory?

I don't think Binkin meant that Americans do exactly the same things. I think that she meant that we have been the agent of oppression at times. You might want to consider our history with regards to Central America or towards our own indigenous peoples. Also, for the record, it was not "all" of the Palestinians dancing wildly in the streets, it was a small number of them, and, as yet, there is no evidence that they are the responsible parties.

As for foreign policy, what our enemies consider to be bullying and unilateralist, our allies view as the appropriate position for the world's largest and strongest superpower

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention lately, Dreama, but our allies have not exactly been standing with us in the recent past (i.e., before yesterday). They have seen us as unilateral bullies and have objected to our actions.

I think it is absolutely imperative that we find the people responsible for these atrocities and bring them to justice. I also don't have any problem with treating the terrorists and the governments who protect them with the same crushing blow.

However. In the long term, I want Americans to realize that when we oppress people in other countries or help other countries oppress their own people or just exploit parts of the rest of the world, that we are creating misery around the world. A child growing up should have as much right to grow up free of fear and hunger and with his or her family as a child in the US.

I don't want the immediate response to keep us from addressing the underlying problems. Otherwise, we're going to make things worse, not better.
posted by anapestic at 8:26 AM on September 12, 2001

Thank you, anapestic, for making a more rational response than I managed to do.
posted by binkin at 8:28 AM on September 12, 2001

America does these sorts of things to the rest of the world, too.

Really? Please point out a time to me when "America" has plowed into civilian buildings during times of peace, murdering possibly 10s of thousands of innocent people, just to make a point, then consequentially all of us, the citizens of your demonized "America" danced wildly in the streets, praising God for the victory?

Um.. 1998 we blew up a prescription drug factory in Sudan. That was to keep Bin Laden from being able to ever strike the US again. Worked good too, didn't it.

We Americans often behave like spoiled children. We want to take our ball and go home when we can't have our way. Similar insularity lead to WWII and our tendency to ignore the results of our actions has lead to this. Terrorists are convinced we have no character or will.

It is time to grow up, to realize that all actions have consequences and to hold those responsible accountable including ourselves. The U.S. ignorance and selfishness in international affairs are major contributors to this event.
posted by jonnyp at 8:32 AM on September 12, 2001

Claiming that the attack was made because of something as abstract as "freedom" and "way of life" in the U.S. is completely unsupported right now. We don't even know who did it.

Remember that: we don't know who did it. We don't knowwhy they did it. Wait a few days before using this unimaginable tragedy to support your favourite pet theory, and maybe you'll actually be able to disguise your advocacy as reason. Right now it's just goofy and disrespectful.

What we know is that whoever did it wanted to kill people and make a point, and that they did a pretty good job of it.

-Mars
posted by Mars Saxman at 8:33 AM on September 12, 2001

So of let's just tell everyone who disagrees to fuck off and pat our own backs and talk about how morally superior Americans are. It's easier that way.

I never told you to 'fuck off'. I value your input, as I do everyone else's. Just because you pissed me off and I disagree with you doesn't mean I want you to shut up.


Further: Have our citizens ever gone into a Vietnamese village and killed unarmed civilians? Hmm.


My god man, this is the worst example I have ever heard. The Vietnamese were arming women and children by the 1000s - our SOLDIERS (not "citizens") never knew who could or could not kill them first. Again, this was a time of WAR, changing the dynamic to out and out fear and self preservation. Can you truly not see the difference between what happened yesterday and the Vietnam war?

Because this webserver doesn't have the hard drive space needed to contain an explanation broken down and simplified enough for you if you don't.
posted by glenwood at 8:33 AM on September 12, 2001

So of let's just tell everyone who disagrees to fuck off and pat our own backs and talk about how morally superior Americans are. It's easier that way.

It's difficult not to feel a bit morally superior when your friends and business partners have just been blown up by terrorists. To defend these murderers regardless of their purported oppression and the USA's rather tertiary involvement in it is astounding in its audacity and perversity.

I don't want the immediate response to keep us from addressing the underlying problems. Otherwise, we're going to make things worse, not better.

Alright anapestic, you make some good points here. What would YOU do, if you were in Bush's place? What is the proper response to the murder of thousands of innocents? Binkin, feel free to weigh in - what would YOU do?
posted by UncleFes at 8:34 AM on September 12, 2001

To defend these murderers

Let me reiterate: I am not defending the murderers. I am suggesting that in addition to going after whoever did this, that Americans take some time to think about why someone might have done it, and what the consequences might be if we continue as we are.

I'm off to think about your other question, Fes.

And glenwood, thank you for further insinuating that I'm an idiot. The Vietnam example was not meant to be equivalent to what happened yesterday, since I was responding to a different comment.
posted by binkin at 8:39 AM on September 12, 2001

I don't want the immediate response to keep us from addressing the underlying problems. Otherwise, we're going to make things worse, not better.

I wholeheartedly share your concern in this matter, anapestic.

But - I differ from most you because I am taking this all very personally. I can politicize and wax Noam Chomsky about all of the evil that the U.S. has perpetuated throughout the world, but it's really all shit to me right now.

As it stands, an invisible enemy is standing in my doorway with a gun in my son's mouth and I just can't maintain any sort of prolonged thoughtfullness on the matter. I'm pissed off and afraid, and I want whoever did this to be incapacitated to do it again.
posted by glenwood at 8:42 AM on September 12, 2001

As for foreign policy, what our enemies consider to be bullying and unilateralist, our allies view as the appropriate position for the world's largest and strongest superpower. So to whose will do we bend?

That's a very good point, Dreama. I don't think it's a question of compromising either way: instead, this has demolished any thought of being an introspective superpower . Ten years ago, much of America watched the Gulf War played out on CNN like an arcade game: an allegedly push-button, high-precision exercise. It doesn't happen like that: as a Bosnian expat in New York posted to "nettime" today, "it is like Mostar without the Old Bridge."

As you say, it's an awful line to tread: is international activism against dictators and terrorists a provocation for domestic attacks, or a safeguard against them? I don't know.

UncleFes: if I were Bush, I'd know that there'd never be a better time to shake off eight months of mutterings about "US unilateralism". There's enough sympathy and grit across other countries to endorse military action that doesn't come across as knee-jerk or precipitous. The niggling issue is whether this multilateral enthusiasm might be an excuse for certain countries (Turkey and the Kurds, Russia and the Chechens) to stamp down on minorities and separatists in the name of combatting terrorism.
posted by holgate at 8:42 AM on September 12, 2001

what would YOU do

To make a tentative start on an answer: I hold that retaliating by killing MORE innocent people is not the answer. We need to find out who, specifically, is responsible for these actions, and make them pay for them. But killing civilians is never the Right Thing to do.
posted by binkin at 8:42 AM on September 12, 2001

As it stands, an invisible enemy is standing in my doorway with a gun in my son's mouth and I just can't maintain any sort of prolonged thoughtfullness on the matter. I'm pissed off and afraid, and I want whoever did this to be incapacitated to do it again.

glenwood: If you love your son, this is precisely the best time to maintain prolonged thoughtfulness -- if people make awful emotional kneejerk potentially genocidal decisions, your son isn't going to have much of a world to live in. Pissed off and afraid isn't anywhere near good enough, for your son or for anyone else's kids in any part of the world.
posted by lia at 8:50 AM on September 12, 2001

really, then talk to the members of the kabbutz i have talked too. The whole premise is invalid. I never said drop a bomb. actually i am extremely calm. But holgates ventures into...what speculation and half-assed theory is making me ill, this is an intelligent person who thinks this attack is because we are "big". I thought something like this would happen weeks ago(but not quite like this) i have told friends, and this can be backed up. The vitriol is from shoddy premises like holgates. The anger is there, and holgate is a target, but it is a puzzlement, he is smarter then that. Ive made no comments except that one(as for yesterdays posts) I remember Yeats poem, the 'second coming'. reread it. I attack Nick because he smart and to me, said a inaccurate thing. I dont understand the Israeli point of view but im seeing it and more each day. It is time to kill and i dont like it, i dont cheer it. But read what i said and hold off on your attack. Monstre, dont ever talk down to me, ever. I know my country very well. I know what it is capable of. After the fourth plane went down, i talked to step-father who is stuck at Cannes and cant get home. He is secure with his governments ability to get him home if he wants. monstre, thats what MeFi is from the base-typing and your telling me to control my anger is funny, like i have no right, well i do. i have the right to be wrong. i have the right to rectify my anger and i have the right to see the enemy die. I fear i have not heeded yeats advice. really, anger will to turn to resolve within 30 hrs for the american mindset. And thank you Mr. Blair, the u.s. could have no better friend. God bless the United States, god bless the British people.
posted by clavdivs at 8:51 AM on September 12, 2001

I wish you could understand how not free you are, how the bible belt restricts more freedom than any socialist government could. Getting arrested for sexual preference, that is freedom? It still happens where you're from

Monstre, I live in the 'Bible Belt' and assure you that you know not what the hell you're talking about. I am unaware of anyone being arrested for their sexual preference - what kind of bizarre Anti-American propoganda is YOUR government feeding YOU?

You have the least poetry, the least culture, the least of so many things that you do not even realize exist outside of your poor-valued little world.

I don't even know how to respond to this. Unbelievably ignorant and arrogant. The least poetry?! What are you talking about? How is such a thing measured ? The world is horrified by our lack of poetry? LOL

Binkin: Your point was that "we" do bad stuff just like "they" do bad stuff, as a continuation of the discussion concerning my assertion that America does not perpetrate random, unprovoked mass murder. I was simply making the point that hijacking a plane and murdering flight attendants with box cutters is 100% incomperable to Soldiers killing potentially armed women and children during the Vietnam War. I did not mean to insinuate that you were an idiot. Perhaps you should develop a thicker skin before taking part in this type of discussion.
posted by glenwood at 8:52 AM on September 12, 2001

Pissed off and afraid isn't anywhere near good enough, for your son or for anyone else's kids in any part of the world.

Geez, give me some time to cool off. The shit just went down 24 hours ago!

And besides that, (fortunately) the decision isn't up to me.
posted by glenwood at 8:55 AM on September 12, 2001

When you say "make them pay" Binkin...what kind of retaliation are you implying? Seriously...is there a punishment to fit this crime?
posted by dangerman at 8:57 AM on September 12, 2001

*sigh* You're right and I owe apologies.

I wish I had anapestic's clarity of thought right now but I'm very torn between worrying about the friends who haven't checked in yet from New York, and worrying about What is Going To Happen Next.

I am over-reacting and I apologize. I just wish somehow with every hyperbole I could wedge just the tiniest sliver between Americans and their [SOMETIMES] blind patriotism.

But killing other people will only result in more blood, claiming that the free-est and wealthiest nation has been attacked with no reason will only alienate sympathy.

I'm sorry. When I saw the title of this thread I spoke from the heart, and I am slowly beginning to connect that heart to my brain today.
posted by monstre at 9:03 AM on September 12, 2001

To defend these murderers regardless of their purported oppression and the USA's rather tertiary involvement in it is astounding in its audacity and perversity.

To characterize what Binkin and/or I was saying as defending the murderers is irresponsible and incorrect.

As for what I'd do in Bush's place, I'd probably do a lot of what he, presumably, is doing. I really don't have a problem with punishing governments who support terrorism, although I'd hope that we do as much as we can to limit collateral damage against the civilian population.

The problem here is that there really isn't a good proportional response to a suicide attack. The attacks were not based on reason, so it's difficult to formulate a reasonable reply. Ideally, we find and eliminate all the people who were responsible, but if we seek to kill innocent civilians elsewhere because our own innocent civilians were killed, then we clearly lose all claims to moral superiority.

My problem with Bush's response (so far, I mean, we don't really know what he's going to do) is that he didn't say what Mayor Giuliani said about not taking our frustrations out on innocent people. He seemed more interested with assuring people that there would be a vigorous response than that there would be an accurate and reasoned response.
posted by anapestic at 9:08 AM on September 12, 2001

But killing civilians is never the Right Thing to do.

But as these terrorists felt that the people in the world trade center were combatants in that they helped to promulgate American economic policy, the idea of what constitutes a civilian nowadays is a little airy. I work in financial services: am I a civilian or a combatant? I work for people who are very active in Jewish American affairs; am I a civilian anymore? And if I am not, what of my wife and son? She is a schoolteacher, he is 1 1/2. Are they civilians? Because they are now apparently targets.

That said, does that make the adolescents I saw dancing in Gaza yesterday civilians or combatants? My friend is missing - he is a music writer in NYC. I hope that's still "is" and not "was." Civilian or combatant?

I know it's an emotional response. I know it will likely lead to something worse. But when I saw those people in Gaza dancing and honking their car horns, I wanted to shoot them. In the head. Personally. Repeatedly. And if I find out that my friend has been killed, I will never forgive them as long as I live. I will hate all of them forever. And though I am not a soldier, or a politician, and I likely never will be, I will take every opportunity I get to oppose them and fight them on every point and by every method open to me. I don't care if the Israelis oppressed them. I don't care if Satan himself came up from hell every morning to personally poke them in the ass with a flaming pitchfork. They are now my lifelong enemy. They are now the lifelong enemy of millions of Americans just like me. And they have brought it upon themselves. Regardless of what side you are on, who you blame, the reality is that the game has changed, probably for the worse. What balance America previously had, what effort American previously put into making peace in the world - those days are over. Whoever did this did something very foolish - they made millions of enemies in the richest, most productive, most military country in the world. I just heard the words "Acts of War" come out of the mouths of the President and Secretary of State. Everyone I know that is in the force reserves has been called back to post. America has changed - America has been roused - and these terrorists did it. And likely a lot of people who speak Arabic are going to suffer for it.

And I will be unable to help smiling when it happens, for they are now my enemies. And to hell with moral superiority. It means nothing to me if I learn my friend is dead.
posted by UncleFes at 9:12 AM on September 12, 2001

As it stands, an invisible enemy is standing in my doorway with a gun in my son's mouth and I just can't maintain any sort of prolonged thoughtfullness on the matter. I'm pissed off and afraid, and I want whoever did this to be incapacitated to do it again.

I do understand your reaction, glenwood. My biggest fear about all this is what it will do to the world my daughters grow up in.

And I do want whoever did this to be incapacitated. I just don't want it done in a way that, ultimately, makes my daughters less safe. Or, more to the point, I want other things done so that another generation of terrorists doesn't grow up to threaten my children.

Additionally, I'd like things to be done so that ALL children are safer. Sure, I put my own kids' safety first, but I reject the notion that I have to choose either safety for my kids or safety for kids in another country. We can do better than that, and I don't think we've tried nearly hard enough.
posted by anapestic at 9:15 AM on September 12, 2001

With all this talk of War, a certain quote comes to mind:
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
-Voltaire
posted by bytecode at 9:17 AM on September 12, 2001

Give me a fucking break.
This a-holes diatribe is using the deaths of all those people yesterday to push his bullshit objectivist claptrap. Its not about the people, or the fuckers who killed the people, its about his Ayn Rand bullshit. I have the same reaction the way lefters here who are somewhat insinuating we deserved this because of past transgressions, or conservatives who blame Clinton's "lax policies" for this (quite a few were on tv yesterday). The blame rests solely on the shoulders of those fuckwats who took those innocent's lives. To push an objectivist,democrat,republican, libertarian, whatever agenda using their deaths is sickening.
posted by owillis at 9:18 AM on September 12, 2001

owillis: well said.

UncleFes:
Some Palestinians did dance in the streets, true. Most did not.
Think about this: What if (assuming the terrorist is indeed Islamist, I am not convinced yet), his aim was to force the US to attack an Arab nation, only to reveal that the government of the country had nothing to do with it, aiming to make the Arab world (the whole world?) rally around the unjustly attacked and against the US? What if your reaction is exactly the kind he wished to provoke? How would you feel if you are, unwittingly, playing their game? Is this an unlikely scenario?
Think.
posted by talos at 9:23 AM on September 12, 2001

I am unaware of anyone being arrested for their sexual preference

Bowers v. Hardwick

more recently, look to Texas for arrests.

on another note, i was in college about 20 miles south of the Murrah Federal Building when in was bombed. friends of mine who were students from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan wouldn't leave their homes that day or the next because of the harassment and attacks in response on Arab and middle eastern people in this country.

take out whomever is responsible, whether individual, group or government, foreign or domestic. don't blame and punish innocents and civilians just because you're pissed. laying waste to Afghanistan isn't a good answer.
posted by tolkhan at 9:23 AM on September 12, 2001

If this was bin Laden, then we have a very good idea why this is happening. The attacks were horrible, immoral acts, and they can't be justified.
posted by tranquileye at 9:24 AM on September 12, 2001

These horrible acts of terrorism are the direct and practical results of someone's evil ideas and beliefs.

It is not sickening to "push" good ideas as a response. In fact, it is the only proper and decent response.
posted by dagny at 9:26 AM on September 12, 2001

vive la france. not killing will led to more. the choice is clear. We should really be talking to our European friends about all the bombs that have gone off. The brits are just amazing when faced with terror. She is a powerhouse of resolve at times and will not flinch when terror comes. And France, the same. Remember degaulle and his defiance of assassins. You have more experience in picking up the pieces. WE need you. We need to understand how a english women who've faced the blitz can walk down the street....hell, like YOU CANT HURT ME. The family who found the father( restaurant owner) thats power. THE BIG SAM IS UP FOLKS.
he is beyond pissed, hes focused. Talos, we have already attacked at few locations, and not reacting would hurt us more, this is a fact and no amount of glad handing will change that.
posted by clavdivs at 9:26 AM on September 12, 2001

"laying waste to Afghanistan" no offence, but the country is a rocky crag, pockmarked by centuries of war and neglect.
posted by clavdivs at 9:28 AM on September 12, 2001

clavdivs: I'm sorry that what I said upset you, but I think you misinterpret my point about the US being a kind of Mount Everest for terrorists. Terrorism attacks institutions: but the motivation for the assault is never on the things that make those institutions strong, but on the things that people convince themselves make those institutions evil. McVeigh wasn't attacking the Bill of Rights in OKC, but the monster that he'd made of the federal government. Whoever did this wasn't attacking American values, but a perverted idea of American values -- more widely, civilised values -- that had grown in them like a cancer.


The best way to respond to those who make monsters of you is to refute them in the name of the values that you truly hold dear.
posted by holgate at 9:29 AM on September 12, 2001

but the country is a rocky crag, pockmarked by centuries of war and neglect.

your point?
posted by tolkhan at 9:31 AM on September 12, 2001

Whereas all war acts are justifiable???

America does not perpetrate random, unprovoked mass murder. I was simply making the point that hijacking a plane and murdering flight attendants with box cutters is 100% incomperable to Soldiers killing potentially armed women and children during the Vietnam War.

BULLSHIT. American soldiers shot unarmed CIVILIAN fathers and raped their wives and daughters in more countries during "war time" than can be counted.

Do you continue to defend Nagasaki and Hiroshima as a "necessary casualty of war" and call yourself better than the terrorists just because you're sorry it happened??

Isn't it obvious that as we are the role models to the world and that we consistently exercise such a blatant disregard for life while playing police officers to the planet, that other countries will take that lead and say "an eye for an eye" and call it a day?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind. Someone else posted that in another thread and I'm with them.

Hug your children. Pray for peace. Retaliation is not the answer, regardless of how often you selfishly shout it because your friend is missing in New York. Many of mine are as well.
posted by mirla at 9:33 AM on September 12, 2001

Tolkahn : Not to nitpick, but

It is an EXTREMELY rare occurence as evidenced by the following quote: "In all candor, I don't believe we've ever made an arrest before under those circumstances"

"Nance's false report, for which he served 15 days in jail, stemmed from "a personality dispute" between him and the two men, the sheriff's department said."

This is hardly example of an oppressive state where people are constantly arrested for sexual preference.
posted by glenwood at 9:34 AM on September 12, 2001

i wasn't giving an example of an oppressive state. just examples of arrests in response to "I am unaware of anyone being arrested for their sexual preference."
posted by tolkhan at 9:36 AM on September 12, 2001

Retaliation is not the answer, regardless of how often you selfishly shout it because your friend is missing in New York.

So I assume we should roll over and shout out apologies for past war crimes as terrorists blow up civilian buildings?

BULLSHIT. American soldiers shot unarmed CIVILIAN fathers and raped their wives and daughters in more countries during "war time" than can be counted.

No nation is innocent when it comes to war, miria. And my point stands, which is not to say that perpetrating violence during war time is 'right', but that it is VERY different from what happened yesterday.
posted by glenwood at 9:37 AM on September 12, 2001

Most did not.

I don't care.

See how much fun this is? See how well this works? See the results of terrorism?

What if your reaction is exactly the kind he wished to provoke? How would you feel if you are, unwittingly, playing their game? Is this an unlikely scenario?

I don't care. If I had the authority, they would all be dead now. Because I am not reasonable when I believe my family and friends are being threatened, when they become targets. Not reasonable at all. The antithesis of reasonable. Totally fucking devoid of reason.

I am holgate's bad example.
posted by UncleFes at 9:38 AM on September 12, 2001

tolkhan: I was responding to the original post which prompted my reply which prompted your reply.
posted by glenwood at 9:38 AM on September 12, 2001

i see.

thank you for not capitalizing my name. capitalization is vanity, and the vain go to hell.
posted by tolkhan at 9:40 AM on September 12, 2001

Your point was that "we" do bad stuff just like "they" do bad stuff, as a continuation of the discussion concerning my assertion that America does not perpetrate random, unprovoked mass murder. I was simply making the point that hijacking a plane and murdering flight attendants with box cutters is 100% incomperable to Soldiers killing potentially armed women and children during the Vietnam War. I did not mean to insinuate that you were an idiot.

Actually, the reason I made two posts was because I was replying separately to you and to a comment by (I believe) UncleFes. I was not equating the Vietnam actions with what happened yesterday, no matter how you interpret my posts.

Perhaps you would like to keep the argument where it belongs instead of making comments about me personally. Your sentence about requiring more hard drive space than is on this server to explain to me something I already understand was insulting and uncalled for.
posted by binkin at 9:59 AM on September 12, 2001

And I will be unable to help smiling when it happens, for they are now my enemies.

In that case, Fes, we are coming from completely different positions. I do find it puzzling that you condemn the Palestinians for celebrating American deaths - Palestinians who view Americans as their enemies - yet state that you would do the same.
posted by binkin at 10:03 AM on September 12, 2001

Seriously...is there a punishment to fit this crime?

Well, morally, no. But apparently killing them will make people feel better, so fine. The fact that this will not be sufficient punishment for the individuals responsible (for supporting the suicide bombers) does not make it OK for us to kill their civilians.

During lunch, I heard a man on our local call in show saying that we should go to these other countries (wherever they are) and kill the children because they will otherwise grow up to be just like their terrorist parents. I am so appalled by this sentiment I'm not even sure what to say about it.
posted by binkin at 10:08 AM on September 12, 2001

Your sentence about requiring more hard drive space than is on this server to explain to me something I already understand was insulting and uncalled for.

The implication was supposed to be that my assertion was obvious, not that you didn't understand it (as evidenced by the rather rhetorical "if you don't" at the end of the sentence).

I thought that was clear and apologize if you felt insulted, which was not my intent.
posted by glenwood at 10:09 AM on September 12, 2001

I do find it puzzling that you condemn the Palestinians for celebrating American deaths - Palestinians who view Americans as their enemies - yet state that you would do the same.

In return. They have forfeited their right to my previous regard for their well being by celebrating the deaths of my countrymen. Before, the Palestinians were not my enemies. Today they are. And to my knowledge, America has never attacked the Palestinians, despite their 30 year penchant for murdering innocent civilians and their terrorist leadership. To my knowledge, we have always given the Palestinians the benefit of the doubt, when we could have looked the other way and let Israel wipe them right off the Gaza Strip. Not anymore, if my feelings are indicative of public opinion and that of our government.
posted by UncleFes at 10:12 AM on September 12, 2001

I thought that was clear and apologize if you felt insulted, which was not my intent.

It wasn't to me, but in case it's not obvious, I'm having a hard time of things today anyway and you probably weren't out of line. I apologize, as well, for overreacting.
posted by binkin at 10:12 AM on September 12, 2001

In return

Well, from what I can surmise, the Palestinians were celebrating because we got what they thought was coming to us. In return for all that they perceive the United States has done. Right now, there is no evidence that the Palestinians have done anything other than celebrate, which is just as reprehensible as it will be when we do it. To me, at least.
posted by binkin at 10:14 AM on September 12, 2001

during times of war the rules change?

Look up the term "ius in bello."

who in hell decides when it's war time or peace time?

In this country, Congress.
posted by kindall at 10:18 AM on September 12, 2001

Really? Please point out a time to me when "America" has plowed into civilian buildings during times of peace, murdering possibly 10s of thousands of innocent people, just to make a point.

US bombing raids on Iraq 1993-2001, total number of casualties unknown, estimates in or above the tens of thousands.
posted by dydecker at 10:18 AM on September 12, 2001

I'm having a hard time of things today anyway and you probably weren't out of line.

It wouldn't be the first time if I was, believe me.

As different as our perspectives may appear, I too am having a very difficult day, and often find comfort in playing Devil's advocate.
posted by glenwood at 10:19 AM on September 12, 2001

I don't care. If I had the authority, they would all be dead now. Because I am not reasonable when I believe my family and friends are being threatened, when they become targets. Not reasonable at all. The antithesis of reasonable. Totally fucking devoid of reason.

I am holgate's bad example.

This makes me more sad than all the rest of it. Because I understand UncleFes's reaction and he is most likely right, millions of Americans are reacting in the same way this morning. Would that I believed in a compassionate God so that I could pray for us all.

"The dream of Order begets tyranny, the dream of Beauty begets monsters and violence." -Aldous Huxley, Ape and Essence
posted by theMargin at 10:20 AM on September 12, 2001

i see your point holgate.(sorry for the unkind and unfair remarks, i wont blame it on the incident, for it was my action) But this is a bridge burning incident. The terrorists think we are weak, they dont know our history(vietnam, Detroit riots, bonus army) they think we could not handle a big symbolic strike. I feel it was done solely because they could. The gain(for them) would be for us to start a global conflict, which is ludicrous. The modis operandi is just not there. I have heard that bin laden is dead, if he is, why the attack, what would be gained, if this negates what ever sympathy the "cause" may gain, what can they do next? The only thing i can think is that he is(was) prepared for a sustained conflict or he hoped that this would light the powder keg. I dont think attacks will follow unless they were preplanned or a copy cat syndrome might take place. Either way, bin laden made a grave mistake and he put his followers in danger. In short, he cut the throat of his own cause, he will never be allowed to live, even by the people who supported him. on the other hand, an attack on a chemical plant or food factory would have sent us into a tizzy, The big sam gone wild makes these faceless punks look like spraypainters. Some say, well we do bad things, why is it a surprise when we bomb people daily? I think this was the biggest sucker punch in history. Fine, then all is fair in War and fear the B-52, fear the SAS-U.K. fear the french action service who swoop down and make complete camps disappear with no trace (*god i love that, it is class) fear Mossad as they know where you sleep, fear the russian security service as they will just go nuts when the evil hits the fan. fear. Now it is fear time. time for those to step up or get back. and fear CIA, they me darlings, when motivated, can do really wonderful things to people who kill american citizens. (yeats is slapping me now, hes threatened to call james fenton and that will not be a pretty sight for me)
posted by clavdivs at 10:23 AM on September 12, 2001

kill the children because they will otherwise grow up to be just like their terrorist parents.

It is foul. But the reverse is just as foul. There were undoubtedly children on those four planes, and these terrorists felt no moral compunction toward them.

It apparently takes murderers to bring murderers to justice.

Right now, there is no evidence that the Palestinians have done anything other than celebrate, which is just as reprehensible as it will be when we do it.

When exactly did we celebrate the deaths of thousands of Palestinians? I'm pretty sure I didn't get the day off on that particular holiday.

In any event, I don't care if they weren't involved. Where once I may have supported them, I will now fight them on every position. I am just one man, not much in this world, and I have no illusions as to the efficacy my hatred has. But I am not the only one who feels this way. I saw mild old bookkeepers scream "nuke 'em!" at the TV when that footage came on.

If justice and peace is what the Palestinians and the Arabs want, they have just bought a lifetime of the opposite.

Would that I believed in a compassionate God so that I could pray for us all.

There is no god. There are only murderers and oppressors who quote mythology in defense of barbarity.
posted by UncleFes at 10:26 AM on September 12, 2001

... and kill millions of persons that have no clue about who Osama, Bush, or m.polo is. By doing that the US would not be defending itself against terror but committing an even more heinous act of terror than Bin Laden. It is exactly this total disrespect for the lives of innocents that characterizes a terrorist's mentality.

So, tell me, talos, where do I sign up? I honestly and sincerely don't give a flying fuck whether "millions of persons" have "no clue about who Osama, Bush, or m.polo is". The fact that they don't is simply not my problem. It is their government who has harbored and encouraged bin Laden. They have the power to change that, and they don't. They - and every fuckwad, semi-civilized bastion of terrorist assholes on the planet - will have demonstrated for them in a very real way that if you attack America, America will wipe you off the face of the fucking planet. Maybe then they will think about not harboring terrorist leaders like bin Laden.
posted by m.polo at 10:26 AM on September 12, 2001

reports just in, bin laden is afganistan, so he may be dead or dee-dee-moied. ( a report that someone saw him to me is suspect.)
posted by clavdivs at 10:28 AM on September 12, 2001

Fes: please note I said it will be. I meant when we celebrate the death of whoever is responsible for this, and was not implying that we had done any such thing already. I am at a point right now, and I reserve the right to change my mind, where I cannot fathom celebrating the taking of lives.
posted by binkin at 10:37 AM on September 12, 2001

tolk- my point is that the country is virtually a wasteland as it is, so little danger in ruining the beautiful topgraphy that is afganistan.
posted by clavdivs at 10:39 AM on September 12, 2001

They have the power to change that, and they don't.

Errr, m.polo, if you're talking about Afghanistan, more than half the population can't leave their houses without being fully-covered from head to toe, accompanied by a male relative, and can get stoned to death if someone on the street decides their white shoes are "sacreligous."

They have as much opportunity to change their government as Libertarians do of changing yours -- try and hold your bloodthirst in check and get some perspective. Your country and your people are not the only ones suffering; your innocents are not the only ones who have or will be killed.
posted by lia at 10:44 AM on September 12, 2001

Lia - a polite and heartfelt, Fuck You. When you have had dozens of friends killed, the two largest buildings in one your largest cities demolished and several hundred passengers aboard aircraft used as material mass for destruction, you may come back here and I will listen to you. I'm so happy that from the now comparative safetry of the Phillipines, you feel free to lecture us on how to respond to a deadly, coordinated attack on our nation.

My point was a simple one before you twisted into a little feminist tizzy: only Afghanistanis are responsible for the government there, only the Afghanistani government is harboring the terrorist leader who, at least for now, is clearly responsible for this attack, and therefore, only the Afghanistanis should be held accountable for their goverment's actions (or, in this case, inaction in turning over bin Laden in accordance with prior requests). The Afghanistani government could be holding every man, woman, child and camel in chains for all I care; if bin Laden is the culprit, the government of Afghanistan bears accessory guilt in this and that government and its people should be punished. Swiftly, without mercy and taking as many uninvolved, innocent people with it as possible, punished.
posted by m.polo at 11:13 AM on September 12, 2001

and can get stoned to death if someone on the street decides their white shoes are "sacreligous."

That's their religion, and it's no less foolish than "don't eat pork" or the "mystery of transubstantiation." If they don't like it, they can work to change it. There *is* opposition to the Taliban in Afghanistan.

hold your bloodthirst in check and get some perspective.

Thousands dead in NYC but m.polo's the bloodthirsty one? Could be that others round here need some of that vaunted perspective.

I cannot fathom celebrating the taking of lives.

But you'd chastise me for smiling upon the death of those that do?
posted by UncleFes at 11:13 AM on September 12, 2001

tolk- my point is...

ah, so it's ok to kill a bunch of people who have nothing to do with any terrorist organizations/groups/individuals?


really, i'm not all that concerned with how many people die. i have no great love or compassion for most people. i just like butting heads with displays of hypocrisy, and with people who demonstrate that they only pay lip service to the tenets of their religion or to civilization in general. we pretend to be civilized, and that we believe in and support basic human rights for everyone, but when it comes down to it, when something frightful and horrendous happens, we revert to the barbarism we try so hard to hide.

it doesn't matter to me. bomb the fuck out of whomever we're blaming today. we have plenty of fertile people to replace them.
posted by tolkhan at 11:18 AM on September 12, 2001

uh, the hypocrisy comment wasn't aimed at you. it's jsut something i've been doing all over the place, online and off. as i said, yay death!
posted by tolkhan at 11:21 AM on September 12, 2001

we revert to the barbarism we try so hard to hide.

We revert; whoever did this chose to remain barbarians. The hypocrisy is our unwillingness to admit in peace we feel the desire for vengeance in war.
posted by UncleFes at 11:27 AM on September 12, 2001

in other news, my company just sent out a memo for our international staff:

Background

In response to the destruction of the twin World Trade Center towers and other buildings in New York and the attack on the Pentagon in Washington DC with huge loss of life on Tuesday 11 September 2001, retaliatory US military action is expected. The incidents are being treated as terrorist attacks although no organisation has yet claimed responsibility. Immediate speculation is being focused on the Saudi born Islamic extremist Osama bin Laden whose followers were responsible for attacks on the US Embassies in Kenya (Nairobi) and Tanzania in August 1998.

There is a strong possibility that air strikes will be launched against Afghanistan where bin Laden is believed to be based. Such strikes would result in an increase in anti-US sentiment in the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Yemen and could take the form of acts by individuals or organised groups against US government facilities and other identifiable US targets.

The United Kingdom and other Western countries may assist the US military operation, and this raises the possibility that premises and individuals related to countries providing assistance could also be targets. Popular anger at mass demonstrations is also highly probable.

Possible Target Countries

Clients with operations in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Yemen should carefully monitor their home government’s travel web-site and be prepared to evacuate all staff and dependants at short notice. Travel to these countries should be cancelled until further notice.

Countries Where Adverse Reaction Should Be Anticipated

Non-essential travel to the following countries, where there is the possibility of major adverse reaction following US military action, should also be postponed until further notice:

Egypt
Iran
Iraq (in the light of hostile comments already made by Iraq, evacuation should be considered)
Israel and Gaza/West Bank
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Saudi Arabia
Sudan
Syria
Tajikistan

Indian Sub-Continent

Personnel based in India and Bangladesh and other countries in this region should be aware of the possibility of a reaction to strikes against bin Laden and avoid US premises and Embassies and Consulates. There is no need to avoid travel to these countries but action would need to be taken to postpone travel if the situation deteriorates. It would then be necessary to consider the evacuation of personnel.

Isn't THAT special.
posted by UncleFes at 11:34 AM on September 12, 2001

Thousands dead in NYC but m.polo's the bloodthirsty one?

Judge for yourself:

The Afghanistani government could be holding every man, woman, child and camel in chains for all I care; if bin Laden is the culprit, the government of Afghanistan bears accessory guilt in this and that government and its people should be punished. Swiftly, without mercy and taking as many uninvolved, innocent people with it as possible, punished. [Emphasis added.]
posted by anapestic at 11:44 AM on September 12, 2001

Lia - a polite and heartfelt, Fuck You.

From you, that's a compliment -- thanks, m.polo!

When you have had dozens of friends killed, the two largest buildings in one your largest cities demolished and several hundred passengers aboard aircraft used as material mass for destruction, you may come back here and I will listen to you. I'm so happy that from the now comparative safetry of the Phillipines, you feel free to lecture us on how to respond to a deadly, coordinated attack on our nation.

First, you might want to ask me if I have friends and relatives in New York; I do. I don't know where they all are right now.

Second, you might want to ask me if I had/have countrymen in those buildings and on those planes; I do.

Third, I'm glad my safety makes you happy -- thanks for the concern! I'm quite touched.

Fourth,
your country just asked mine to please lend a hand, so this is officially my concern.

Five, navel-gazing doesn't become you.

My point was a simple one before you twisted into a little feminist tizzy:

First, that wasn't a "little feminist tizzy" -- it was fact.

Second, your point isn't simple, it's simple-minded -- the difference may escape you, but it's a big difference. You're wrong, and a bloodthirsty barbarian besides.
posted by lia at 11:47 AM on September 12, 2001

I don't care. If I had the authority, they would all be dead now. Because I am not reasonable when I believe my family and friends are being threatened, when they become targets. Not reasonable at all. The antithesis of reasonable. Totally fucking devoid of reason.

I am holgate's bad example.

this is the sickening trail of thought that led to my very close friend being assaulted with large thrown rocks yesterday (which were not lobbed with intent to scare, but fucking chucked with intent to down a target) as she was walking her dog, for the mere crime of looking muslim (she is slightly olive skinned and has a nose-ring). if you have nothing but unreasonable bad example touting to display in a forum that at least tries to carry forth rational discussion, then mayhaps you need to sit back for yet another few hours and calm down.. because the statement you just made ( I will hate all of them forever... ) is that you'd be the next one to bring a cinderblock down on her head.
posted by dagon at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2001

It amazes me how some of you boldly and proudly wave your reactionary, emotional, gut-level reactions to this situation, as though you are somehow better for eschewing reason, logic, and calm. This is a perversion of all that is good in humankind, and I would plead with you to overcome the animal reaction and engage in some human reflection.

Be angry! Be FURIOUS! But don't be enraged and blinded by pain, passion and outrage. Sanity must reign, and sanity does not survive in a maelstrom of uncontrolled urges, fight-or-flight responses, or a surging, unthinking mob blind to all but reprisal.
posted by rushmc at 11:54 AM on September 12, 2001

I cannot fathom celebrating the taking of lives.

But you'd chastise me for smiling upon the death of those that do?

Fes: That would be you celebrating their deaths; I don't understand what inconsistency you're seeing in my statement.
posted by binkin at 11:54 AM on September 12, 2001

because the statement you just made ( I will hate all of them forever... ) is that you'd be the next one to bring a cinderblock down on her head.

No. Enough Americans are dead in this thing. I would have bombed Afghanistan and probably Gaza. My point is that, if you attack my family, my friends, and then celebrate, I lose my capacity to be reasonable about it.

Where did this assault you describe take place? Because I haven't heard of anything like this going on anywhere. You want to blame your friend's asault on me, feel free, but you're bullshitting yourself. And as for rational discussion, well, if you got some solutions, maybe you'll let the rest of us know. In the meantime, I thought we were discussing opinion here.

That would be you celebrating their deaths; I don't understand what inconsistency you're seeing in my statement.

I have lived in peace my whole life, and advocated against oppression and violence. Does it have to come down to "they started it"? I guess it does. They started it. But I have a feeling that I, in the person of the American military, will finish it. There is some small joy in that, I think.
posted by UncleFes at 12:04 PM on September 12, 2001

I'm so happy that from the now comparative safetry of the Phillipines, you feel free to lecture us on how to respond to a deadly, coordinated attack on our nation.

Are you unaware of any history before the last 48 hours, m.polo? The fact that parts of the Philippines are safer than Manhattan as of Tuesday morning doesn't diminish what an unsafe place that country has been over much of the last century. If you want to say that someone's a hypocrite because they live in such a safe place, maybe you should go pick on the Swiss or the Canadians. You might even be able to spell their countries' names correctly.
posted by anapestic at 12:06 PM on September 12, 2001

Because I haven't heard of anything like this going on anywhere.

I just heard about an Arabic-looking woman being pushed down some stairs in Toledo, and there have been various reports of rock-throwing from Cleveland.

And you may think "they started it" but that doesn't mean everyone agrees. Everybody thinks they're right, but it obviously can't be the case that everybody is. If everybody continues to act as if their people are the only ones who matter, where will it ultimately get us?
posted by binkin at 12:08 PM on September 12, 2001

You're wrong, and a bloodthirsty barbarian besides.

Why, thank you. It must be so nice to sit so far away and pass judgement like this on a people who have just been subjected to the most horrific terrorist attack in this century or the last. Who needs a grieving process when we have interventionist little fuckwads like you to police our thoughts on MeFi? You almost make me hope that Manilla is next, you arrogant pice of shit.
posted by m.polo at 12:10 PM on September 12, 2001

But I have a feeling that I, in the person of the American military, will finish it.

Setting aside the rightness or wrongness of it for a moment, on what evidence do you base that assumption? Given the country's past reactions to similar events in the past, and the nature of the leadership we have at present, and the various political realities of the world...what makes you think we will "finish it" in any meaningful sense? Oh, sure, we will no doubt do something--honor and the public appetite demands it--but will it be meaningful? appropriate? satisfying?

Or will it be the equivalent of dropping enough bombs on Saddam Hussein to get him to quiet his anti-America rhetoric for another month or two before crawling back out into the public eye and spewing forth anew?
posted by rushmc at 12:10 PM on September 12, 2001

They started it. But I have a feeling that I, in the person of the American military, will finish it. There is some small joy in that, I think.

You bigot. You warmonger. You and those like you are terrorists. You are the same as the evil men who committed this act. You embarrass the United States, you embarrass yourselves.

Matt spoke too soon. Kill MetaFilter. Kill it.
posted by J. R. Hughto at 12:13 PM on September 12, 2001

You almost make me hope that Manilla is next, you arrogant pice of shit.

I suppose you think that by tossing the "almost" into that sentence, it magically becomes inoffensive. It doesn't. That's about the shittiest thing I've read all day, m. polo, and in this thread, that's something special.
posted by Skot at 12:16 PM on September 12, 2001

Kill MetaFilter.

Ah, JR, if only killing MeFi would stop people from thinking this way....
posted by binkin at 12:17 PM on September 12, 2001

m.polo: your words are as revolting as anything I've seen in the past 24 hours.
posted by binkin at 12:18 PM on September 12, 2001

dallas theme(the final act) "jr-you ever read lao-tzu" chick-chick "no" (hands up or a little u.s. falg pops out and then come the a-10s(whoosh) and....end transmission...oobeta-sam.
posted by clavdivs at 12:20 PM on September 12, 2001

he even fucks that up:)
posted by clavdivs at 12:20 PM on September 12, 2001

when im gone you kids fuckin behave,QUIT THE HENNY PENNY
posted by clavdivs at 12:22 PM on September 12, 2001

Or will it be the equivalent of dropping enough bombs on Saddam Hussein to get him to quiet his anti-America rhetoric for another month or two before crawling back out into the public eye and spewing forth anew?

I think the scope of the events preclude this.

If everybody continues to act as if their people are the only ones who matter, where will it ultimately get us?

Where has the opposite gotten us? Where has indulging the world at our own expense gotten us? Attacked and vilifed. We aided the Afghans in their fight against the Soviets, and they repay us by harboring bin Laden; we force our ally Israel to sit down at the peace table with Arafat, and the Palestinians dance in the streets at the news of the thousands of American dead. So forgive me if I feel less than egalitarian right this second. We have given them much, and they have repaid us in the blood of our own people. Now they will pay for it (I hope), and rightly so.

m.polo, don't succumb to the lure of personal attack. She's baiting you. Your points are valid, don't clutter them by attacking her.

You bigot. You warmonger. You and those like you are terrorists. You are the same as the evil men who committed this act. You embarrass the United States, you embarrass yourselves.

Am I? Do I? How fascinating.

Ah, JR, if only killing MeFi would stop people from thinking this way....

And if only we could stop terrorism and those who foment it with kind words and inspirational thoughts. If only...
posted by UncleFes at 12:25 PM on September 12, 2001

That's enough, people.
posted by Avogadro at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2001

Where has indulging the world at our own expense gotten us?

I don't think we've been "indulging the world at our own expense", on which point we will have to agree to disagree, because you're not going to change my mind and obviously I'm not going to change yours.
posted by binkin at 12:35 PM on September 12, 2001

you're not going to change my mind and obviously I'm not going to change yours.

You're probably right :)

In the end, I don't think that modern America has the stomach either way to end terrorism: we're too human to opt not to retaliate, and we're too human to kill them all.

And now that America has been shown to be vulnerable AND media-soaked, the USA will undoubtedly become a popular destination for bombs and death.

I can't wait to explain this to my kid the next time it happens.
posted by UncleFes at 12:45 PM on September 12, 2001

I remember when our house was robbed. I was 14, and I felt like is had, somehow, been violated personally. I felt sick, and angry, and I had nightmares. I wanted someone, anyone to do something to the person who had taken our stuff to make this right.

They never caught the burglar(s). They never found our stuff. We got new stuff, but we couldn't replace the old stuff. And I couldn't make the angry go away.

And that's just a shadow of how everybody feels right now. Including some of the people that we are busy hating. I read the partial lists of dead from the planes. The last names - they're from all over the world. Like us. Americans are from all over the world. And we've got something good here - something that lets us have the right to criticize each other, something that allows us to maintian the longest unarmed border in the world. Something that means that a brown child of immigrants can meet a girl whose ancestors fought for Independence before there was a United State, fall in love, and get married with the blessings of their families and friends.

Sure, we're not a perfect country, but we're a country made up of imperfect people. And I will not stand for the anger at being violated being conflated with hatred. Because if hatred wins the day, and we get our vegence, then the things that brought my parents' families to this country, and the things that keep me here, and the things that blood was spilt over will be gone and forever changed, as surely as the World Trade Center and lives it contained.

I don't know what the appropriate response to all of this is on a national level. And the president hasn't called me to ask my opinion. But I am going to ignore all of the hate that has come from the terrorists and the terrorized, and I'm going to remember the unnamed brave dead heroes that I'll never know about. Because I can speak a word on behalf of hope and against hate, and I can do that here and now. And maybe because evil seems so overwhelming and easy now, and maybe because I desparately want to figure out why the good just can't win, and maybe because there is a clear world before and world after here, maybe, just maybe, this is a good time for me to do the noble and difficult thing (Skot's words, not mine) and be brave and decide stand for something hereafter, even when the heavens aren't falling.

So be angry, but get rid of the hate. I want to believe that a group of humans can rise above hate. Don't disappoint me. Don't disappoint yourselves.
posted by iceberg273 at 12:53 PM on September 12, 2001

You bigot. You warmonger. You and those like you are terrorists. You are the same as the evil men who committed this act. You embarrass the United States, you embarrass yourselves.

Jesus christ people. CHILL OUT. These wounds are still very fresh and people are still very angry and afraid. There is nothing wrong with having violent, illogical, vengeful fantasies right now. It doesn't hurt anyone and it's a normal part of the process of dealing with this.
posted by glenwood at 12:59 PM on September 12, 2001

There is nothing wrong with having violent, illogical, vengeful fantasies right now.

That may be part of it, I'll admit. But it'll be a long time before I defend the Afghani or the Palestinians again, if ever. And I'm pretty rational, overall. My example is the same as many others: how many people will bother to self-examine their hatreds and fears after this? How many will see any Arab as anything but an enemy? Sure, I said all of them, forever, but realistically I have friends who are Arabic, there are thousands of Arabic-Americans who are just as sickened by this as I am. They aren't my enemies, obviously. But for every person like me, there are a 10 who will lash out and attack at ANY Arab. That's the real legacy here. They've gotten us to hate ourselves. They win. The fact is, free and democratic societies are powerless against terrorism. And that is probably the root of all the anger you see: frustration, created between the stress of standing between the desire for an all-out vengeance assault and the realization that it won't do any good and pollutes us more than it hurts them.
posted by UncleFes at 1:12 PM on September 12, 2001

You almost make me hope that Manilla is next, you arrogant pice of shit.

Either raise your level of discourse or take it somewhere else. We don't want your juvenile tantrums or personal attacks.
posted by rushmc at 1:16 PM on September 12, 2001

There is nothing wrong with having violent, illogical, vengeful fantasies right now. It doesn't hurt anyone

That is a blatant mistruth, and anyone who cannot control their emotional reactions to the situation can at least have the decency not to foment hate and discord in a public forum.
posted by rushmc at 1:18 PM on September 12, 2001

I suppose you think that by tossing the "almost" into that sentence, it magically becomes inoffensive. It doesn't. That's about the shittiest thing I've read all day, m. polo, and in this thread, that's something special.

m.polo: your words are as revolting as anything I've seen in the past 24 hours.

Good. GOOD. You are starting to get how this feels (I'll overlook that some of you have remained true to form and have already gone skulking off to the Principal's office to gossip about how your enlightened sensititivies are so offended by emotional frankness)

Just so there's no misunderstanding, this morning I was hand-delivered a list of 148 indivduals that I had to communicate to my staff - one hundred and forty eight human beings - who Monday afternoon left work in New York City as colleagues, peer, direct reports and friends. If and when any one of these 148 people ever leave the site of the former World Trade Center in New York City, it will be in little fucking plastic bags of grey, ash-covered goo.

So far, there is noone here who has the right to lecture me about respect right now.
posted by m.polo at 1:23 PM on September 12, 2001

There is nothing wrong with having violent, illogical, vengeful fantasies right now.

True, but they have no place on MeFi, a permanent record of worldwide discourse. When you speak out here, you are not venting with your friends, you are engaging in a civilized discussion. Violent, illogical, and vengeful fantasies, though they may, may, just be fantasies, they simply have no place in the public forum.

Please observe some modicum of self restraint, or expect to be shouted down yourselves by those that are not so indulgent.
posted by J. R. Hughto at 1:24 PM on September 12, 2001

I am truly sorry that you lost friends, m.polo.
posted by anapestic at 1:29 PM on September 12, 2001

mpolo, I am not trying to bait you but maybe in your state, in your situation, arguing about ideas in a public forum is not the best place for you right now.

I lost a very close friend in the bombing, and another two are unaccounted for. I didn't know this when I jumped into the debate last night, and I am saving my comments on this until I can calm down about it a little. Maybe all of us with emotional attachments should state our opinion and move on, because it's very difficult and not very productive to argue various points right now, as we've all made abundantly clear.
posted by cell divide at 1:33 PM on September 12, 2001

*gives m.polo a hug, just so there's no misunderstanding*

Look, I cannot even begin to empathize with you. I hope that I never am in a situation to. But I do feel pain because of what your and thousands like you are going through. I don't feel angry, but my wife does, and I understand why there is anger. I am afraid, as well. Most of all, I wish that we all could stop feeling this pain and fear, and that there is something that we could do to make it better. I don't want another nation to ever have a day liek yesterday. Ever. And I think that that's what some people were trying to get across. It's OK to be mad. It's OK to grieve. It's OK to demand justice. I think it's OK to do all of this on this site. But remember that we all are within a few degrees of separation of this site and that we all have a huge knot in our stomachs. Some of us get sad, some of us get mad, some of us get sick. But all of us are in a community together. There's no queue for sorrow and grief in a community; a community grieves as a whole. If Dan Rather is right, and revenge is a dish best served cold, then I'll bet that compassion is best served piping hot.

We need to let some of our community grieve, and they need to let us grieve with them.
posted by iceberg273 at 1:42 PM on September 12, 2001

m.polo, I think you confuse emotional frankness with a license to rant abusively. I sorrow for your pain, but agree with the suggestion that this may not be the best place to do your grieving so long as it moves you to lash out at others.
posted by rushmc at 1:44 PM on September 12, 2001

No nation is innocent when it comes to war, miria. And my point stands, which is not to say that perpetrating violence during war time is 'right', but that it is VERY different from what happened yesterday.

Your "point," glenwood, was that war time violence is more Just than what happened yesterday - and don't pretend otherwise - that the U.S. is more Just in its violence than yesterday's perpetrators.

Violence is violence is violence. To encourage engaging in such is reprehensible (not that you did, but others have and do).

And by the way, for people in this forum to continually justify their knee-jerk bile and villification of others to "having had a bad day" really pisses me off. Who among us didn't have a bad day? I STILL HAVEN'T HEARD FROM EVERYONE I CARE ABOUT IN THE CITY.

But I elect to encourage appropriate solutions and not give in to global hatred of a people. I urge that we seek understanding - the WHY in addition to the who and the how - because in so doing, perhaps we can engage in preventative measures for the future, rather than continuing the cycle of hate and intolerance and mis-understanding that fueled yesterday's horror.
posted by mirla at 1:44 PM on September 12, 2001

And by the way, m.polo, I'm dumbfounded by you. You attacked Lia, and she responded saliently to your accusations, to which you responded with worse attacks.

You sully a public forum with your version of "emotional frankness" and call it justified. Your comment about "almost" wishing the death of Lia's people (mine too as it happens) was completely out of line, and you owe her and everyone here an apology.

Do you think your loss excuses you? Others have lost FAMILY and are maintaining their civility. You demean the memory of your lost colleagues by behaving this way on their behalf.

Turn off your computer and go take a long walk somewhere peaceful. Hug your family and thank the Universe they're still with you.
posted by mirla at 2:06 PM on September 12, 2001

What say we give him a break, ok?
posted by UncleFes at 2:11 PM on September 12, 2001

compassion?
posted by tolkhan at 2:19 PM on September 12, 2001

I do have some. I save it for those who deserve it.
posted by UncleFes at 2:21 PM on September 12, 2001

but none for those who've done nothing?
posted by tolkhan at 2:36 PM on September 12, 2001

Do you mean "done nothing" as in innocent? Plenty. Do you mean "done nothing" as in abetted terrorists, promoted them, hid them, clothed them, fed them, armed them, and then danced in the street when they learned of their success? Not so much.
posted by UncleFes at 2:54 PM on September 12, 2001

tolkhan, UncleFes, everybody - chill. please. this would be a good moment to close the browser window(s), turn off the computer, and walk away. go somewhere and yell or mutter or cry or argue over a beer.

it's so hard for us to continue to be human when we can't even see one another - hear each other's voices, see each other's faces. it's easy to look at someone as the enemy when you can't see their tears or hear the tremble in their voice.

iceberg273's first comment And I couldn't make the angry go away. is the first thing I've read that really made me want to cry. it still makes me want to cry.

oh, god. I'm so afraid for the future that I can barely contain myself (at work).
posted by epersonae at 3:01 PM on September 12, 2001

"done nothing" means "done nothing." there are few people i think of as innocent.

you want to hunt down all those who've "abetted... and then danced in the street," then i say go for it. kill them. blow up their homes. slash their tires. paint rude phrases on their mailboxes. more power to you, bro. just don't trample the "innocent" neighbor's daisies in your zeal and/or vengeance.

everybody - chill. please

i'm not getting all worked up about this. i'm just making conversation. one of the things about being able to understand and agree with both sides is that i'm rather dispassionate about it. most people take the Vengeance side, so i go the other way just to balance.
posted by tolkhan at 3:12 PM on September 12, 2001

My friend is alive. He is a journalist. He says reputable sources say 10,000 dead.

I'm going home. I'm not coming back to this thread. I stand behind what I've said today.
posted by UncleFes at 3:13 PM on September 12, 2001

We aided the Afghans in their fight against the Soviets, and they repay us by harboring bin Laden;

We trained the Afghans, including bin Laden's organization, to aid in our Cold War against the Soviets.

we force our ally Israel to sit down at the peace table with Arafat, and the Palestinians dance in the streets at the news of the thousands of American dead.

We sold arms to Israel and supported their actions against Palestinians in the face of worldwide debate and condemnation. Unless you speak the language, you have little way of knowing for certain what the Palestinians were "celebrating".

It makes us all angry, but in a murder investigation you ask: where's the motive? To find it, you have to look at the victim's actions and behavior. This was a crime committed against the entire United States, and so the United States' behavior on the world stage is being examined, so that we can better understand the motives that might have prompted the attack.

The bombing was senseless in its targets and its scope, but until we know for certain who is to blame, we have to examine the US's own actions to see where, how, and why we have may have made enemies whose passions run hot enough to commit such an insane and terrible act.

If you would prefer to believe that the USA is completely unsullied, altruistic, and noble in all its foreign affairs, an open discussion site is probably not the place to be right now. Pain, introspection, anger and even guilt are the order of the day as we sort out the aftermath of these staggering tragedies.

We'll never understand why these as-yet-unknown terrorists chose to take thousands of innocent lives. It's a crime of almost unimaginable proportions. But we have to acknowledge that we have enemies, that we have conflicts, that there are legitimate greivances against the USA's foreign policies, or we'll never understand the motives and we'll never truly solve these awful crimes.

As for the tone of the posts here, the fury and thirst for revenge...

In the United Arab Emirates, the Gulf News worries that the US could resort to "tit-for-tat violence" which, it warns, may only result in continuing attacks from violent groups, and not solve anything.

"In the past America has sought vengeance ... by retaliating against sites in Libya, Afghanistan and Sudan. It was not clear at that time that America was attacking the right places, and it has become more clear with time that the sites attacked were mistakes," it says.

"It is important at a time like this that America remembers its role as the world's leading power, and its commitment to justice. Bush's intention to 'punish' should not disintegrate into plain revenge, but should incorporate justice as well. In such a search for justice America carries the sympathy and support of the world."
posted by Zettai at 3:40 PM on September 12, 2001

What say we give him a break, ok?

I say no. It is entirely appropriate for people to let someone know when they have crossed the line of what is acceptable, and keeping quiet about it or excusing people's excesses because of their "emotions" leads to much worse things when taken to the extreme, like the environments of hatred and intolerance which produced the situation which has prompted this discussion.
posted by rushmc at 3:53 PM on September 12, 2001

Disclaimer: If I had lost someone close to me by an attack from a barbarian with a point to prove to his "God", I would expect to be on my way to Afghanistan, by now. On foot. With a machete. Not expecting to return. m.polo my deepest and heartfelt condolences.

But- and this is for the people mainly in the US, who can still reason at such times- I wonder, if the people that were celebrating at the refugee camps, the survivors of Shabra and Shatila, celebrating the massacre at N.Y., who had seen their relatives slaughtered, with US weapons in front of their eyes, by an enemy supplied and backed by the US, an enemy that was protected from the condemnation of all other nations by the US government, if that was not exactly the sort of emotional reaction of m.polo and others these past 48 hours.
I link here to two very well reasoned articles (from Znet) by a man who has actually interviewed Bin Laden: Fisk1, Fisk2.
For those that still believe that now, of all times, a calm analysis of the situation is absolutely necessary.
posted by talos at 3:14 AM on September 13, 2001

This is a question, right. Are there any Americans who understand and respect the right of all sovereign countries
to forge their own futures and come to terms with their own histories?

This is another question, are there any Americans who understand that it is an aspect of the human condition to fight and resist tyranny and oppression.

I ask these questions because I am a thinking person and believe that history holds the answers to all of todays questions.

Americans, fellow human beings, you are but 3% of the planets population the world will not allow you to bomb it into a state of total obedience to corporate America. And though the cushion of two great oceans may insulate you in some respects against the resistance to globalization, the events of Tuesday illustrate that in the global village everyone can throw stones.
posted by marx at 7:16 AM on September 13, 2001