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Muslim UCLA student tasered for not having ID
November 16, 2006 8:28 AM   RSS feed for this thread Subscribe

Muslim UCLA student tasered for not having ID
"It was beyond grotesque," said UCLA graduate David Remesnitsky of Los Angeles, who witnessed the incident. "By the end they took him over the stairs, lifted him up and Tasered him on his rear end. It seemed like it was inappropriately placed. The Tasering was so unnecessary and they just kept doing it."

Some additional coverage. Patriot act craziness or simple police overreaction?
posted by cgs (369 comments total) 11 users marked this as a favorite

simple (but horribly stupid) police overreaction
posted by Mach5 at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2006


Timely story on tasers in the most recent In These Times.
posted by jimfl at 8:34 AM on November 16, 2006


simple (but rather typical) police overreaction
posted by WoWgmr72 at 8:39 AM on November 16, 2006


"Since, after repeated requests, he would neither leave nor show identification, the CSO notified UCPD officers, who responded and asked Tabatabainejad to leave the premises multiple times. He continued to refuse. As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building."

what did he expect would happen?

I'm holding judgement on this one.....
posted by HuronBob at 8:39 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


Interesting. "The name Taser is an acronym: 'Thomas A. Swift's Electric Rifle'."^
posted by Alt F4 at 8:39 AM on November 16, 2006


This is really sick.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:39 AM on November 16, 2006


Video is also on YouTube.

As a current college student, it's quite chilling to see something like this.
posted by roomwithaview at 8:40 AM on November 16, 2006


That's just how they welcome everyone to Los Angeles. Now go home.
posted by loquacious at 8:40 AM on November 16, 2006


Patriot act craziness or simple police overreaction?

A little from column A, a little from column B.
posted by chunking express at 8:41 AM on November 16, 2006


:(
posted by sciurus at 8:45 AM on November 16, 2006


what did he expect would happen?

I'm sure we can say the same about the LAPD once they get hit with a lawsuit over this one.
posted by roomwithaview at 8:45 AM on November 16, 2006


I'm sure we can say the same about the LAPD once they get hit with a lawsuit over this one.

It wasn't the LAPD, but the campus police who were involved.
posted by ericb at 8:47 AM on November 16, 2006


From the article:

Laila Gordy, a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident, said police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number.

Yeah, if there was even a shred of doubt as to whether or not they were acting irresponsibly, that would do it.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 8:48 AM on November 16, 2006


what did he expect would happen?

I hope someone says the same thing of (and to) you next time you don't act exactly the way the cops want you to act and they beat the shit out of you, taser you, and/or lock you up and throw away the key. Brutal abuse of power is sickening but inevitable; pathetic justification of such by onlookers is, I guess, equally inevitable, but somehow I can never get used to it.
posted by languagehat at 8:49 AM on November 16, 2006 [3 favorites]


He was given a citation for obstruction/delay of a peace officer in the performance of duty

Law enforcement language gives me the creeps.
posted by psmealey at 8:50 AM on November 16, 2006


What's the point in tasing someone who's already limp?

GET UP! MAINTAIN BOWEL CONTROL! *zap*
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:50 AM on November 16, 2006


What the hell does this have to do with the Patriot Act? Is this story on some right wing blog somewhere with the line "typical muslim defiance"?

I'm reserving my judgment on this. The cops apparently didn't know he was muslim (it's a religion), so that is simply framing the story with post hoc facts not available at the time.

That said, in my mind this part "police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number" if true would justify a riot.

Note to cops and security people, if we ask for your name and badge number, just swallow your pride and give them to us. We have the right to ask, and you don't have the right to refuse.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:51 AM on November 16, 2006


If they tasered him in the ass, it probably means he was standing up and leaving, not 'limp and resisting'.
posted by Malor at 8:51 AM on November 16, 2006


well, it's not like he got shot 41 times, so I guess he should consider himself lucky
posted by matteo at 8:52 AM on November 16, 2006


(if you're walking away with a backpack on, your ass is pretty much the main target.)
posted by Malor at 8:52 AM on November 16, 2006


what did he expect would happen?

Witnesses interviewed in the Bruin indicate that he was cool to begin with, but got more upset as the cops either increased in number, or began to act more aggressively toward him. I cannot say I wouldn't have behaved exactly the same way if that happened to me.
posted by psmealey at 8:52 AM on November 16, 2006


It wasn't the LAPD, but the campus police who were involved.

Campus police get TASERS?!
posted by dreamsign at 8:53 AM on November 16, 2006


This is disgusting. Those cops were torturing that guy.
posted by Jupiter Jones at 8:53 AM on November 16, 2006


Assuming the accounts are accurate, of course.
posted by psmealey at 8:53 AM on November 16, 2006


It's bad enough having these cops walking around 'randomly' asking for people's ID.
How can even that be happening, in a supposedly free country?
posted by Flashman at 8:54 AM on November 16, 2006


Jesus. My old computer group at UCLA was in charge of IT in that lab he got tasered in.

Sounds like he wasn't cooperating, but maybe he was just putting up a mild protest over a "your papers, please!" demand and the cops got out of hand. I've never been forced to show ID while working away silently in a computer lab and I'd be kind of pissed if a bunch of cops showed up and started demanding it.
posted by mathowie at 8:55 AM on November 16, 2006


"Many cops are dicks. Film at 11."
posted by Optamystic at 8:55 AM on November 16, 2006


Malor, if you're hanging by the arms between two police officers, the ass is probably a pretty attractive target. It shows him like that in the video, but I'm not sure if it's before or after he was tased.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:55 AM on November 16, 2006


Campaign Against The Taser.

Elderly Homeless Woman Subdued By Taser in Aspen; Charges Dropped Against Her.

Aspen Officer Dismissed After Tasering Senior.
posted by ericb at 8:55 AM on November 16, 2006


>How can even that be happening, in a supposedly free country?

Because everyone is the enemy. Potentially.
posted by gsb at 8:56 AM on November 16, 2006


I'm not defending the police but I don't get this:

I cannot say I wouldn't have behaved exactly the same way if that happened to me.
posted by psmealey at 11:52 AM EST on November 16


Why would you get more aggressive and hostile as you become more outnumbered? The cops who show up later only see you being aggressive, and there are more cops who see you this way then at the start when you were calm.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:56 AM on November 16, 2006


There was apparently a study in the Lancet in 01 that showed that some tasers can incapacitate people for 5-15 minutes, so when they're yelling "Get up or we're going to taser you again!" it's quite possible that he couldn't.

Sick.
posted by gramcracker at 8:57 AM on November 16, 2006


Sick.

Hope there's a massive lawsuit and changes as a result.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:57 AM on November 16, 2006


Him being a Muslim doesn't seem to be an issue with what happened.

Watching the video is terrifying, yet interesting. They tasered him because he wouldn't stand up. Evidently, they couldn't carry or dragg him out, he just HAD to stand. They stopped him as he was leaving anyway and then put their hands on him.

The cops should be fired for those two things alone. The best cops know when to physical and when not to and this (so far) seems like a textbook, common sense case of not getting physical.

What's really interesting that is how many students witnessed this and did nothing except demand badge numbers. I'm not knocking them per se, but rather society as they pretty much in shock and didn't have much clue what to do.

It would have been interesting if the students HAD rushed the cops. Note that I didn't say it was smart or wouldn't have created a bigger situation. But this might have been a good time to create a bigger situation since the police abuse was so obvious and out of bounds.

Also, I'm not sure what the Patriot act has to do with this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:59 AM on November 16, 2006


How can even that be happening, in a supposedly free country?

It's a university computer lab - they have a right to verify that the people there are allowed to be there. Lots of people have to show ID to be permitted access to restricted places.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:59 AM on November 16, 2006


That video made me sick.

I'm disgusted by the behavior of the cops, but not surprised: torturing people is in their nature.

What really disgusts me is that the mob of students didn't bum rush the situation as it was going down. Rent-a-cops torturing a student with a taser in the middle of the library?! Fuck no. Those bystanders should have been all over the guy they were torturing. Wrap your arms around him, make a dogpile.

Standing by while the cops shock him again and again is just too fucked up. Also, the cameraperson was a wuss.
posted by squirrel at 9:00 AM on November 16, 2006


Why would you get more aggressive and hostile as you become more outnumbered? The cops who show up later only see you being aggressive, and there are more cops who see you this way then at the start when you were calm.

Because if you were asked to leave and were complying and they still are getting increased resistance, it's disconcerning.

I mean, it's not like this guy did anything except not have a student ID. Why would there even be the faintest need for more cops?
posted by dflemingdotorg at 9:01 AM on November 16, 2006


I'm a little w/ HuronBob on this. If you start freaking out on police, something bad is going to happen. It would be great if the more agitated people got, the calmer police became, but that isn't the reality. What if the student was deliberately trying to provoke a reaction?

(Though the bottom line still remains that they could have just as easily carried him out rather than repeatedly shocking him...)

Pastabagel- you are right, and I apologize for the ad hoc-ness. I did find some coverage on an American Muslim site, but none of it has has said this is political...
posted by cgs at 9:02 AM on November 16, 2006


What's really interesting that is how many students witnessed this and did nothing except demand badge numbers. I'm not knocking them per se, but rather society as they pretty much in shock and didn't have much clue what to do.

The students repeatedly asked the cops to stop, and made a video of the incident. I think they did a good job! What else were they supposed to do?
posted by thirteenkiller at 9:03 AM on November 16, 2006


What really disgusts me is that the mob of students didn't bum rush the situation as it was going down. Rent-a-cops torturing a student with a taser in the middle of the library?! Fuck no. Those bystanders should have been all over the guy they were torturing. Wrap your arms around him, make a dogpile.

Standing by while the cops shock him again and again is just too fucked up. Also, the cameraperson was a wuss.


You're asking a bunch of 19 and 20 year olds to transcend a level of bravery that barely exists in society at all in front of a bunch of irrationally behaving cops?
posted by dflemingdotorg at 9:04 AM on November 16, 2006


posted by squirrel What really disgusts me is that the mob of students didn't bum rush the situation as it was going down. Rent-a-cops torturing a student with a taser in the middle of the library?! Fuck no. Those bystanders should have been all over the guy they were torturing. Wrap your arms around him, make a dogpile. Standing by while the cops shock him again and again is just too fucked up. Also, the cameraperson was a wuss.

Yeah, let us know where and when you plan to do that, Ghandi. We'll be right behind you. Mm-hmm, yep.
posted by fandango_matt at 9:04 AM on November 16, 2006


Why would you get more aggressive and hostile as you become more outnumbered?

Perhaps a feeling that you're not doing anything wrong, you're paying to use the damn equipment and you're getting harassed (and he most definitely was by all accounts) 'cause you forgot the damn piece of paper that says it's ok for you to be using the damn equipment your paying to you. Then the call backup for one damn student?! They're stupid and cowards?

Yeah, I can see someone getting pissed in the situation.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 AM on November 16, 2006


What's really interesting that is how many students witnessed this and did nothing...

Kitty Genovese had the same complaint.
posted by Alt F4 at 9:06 AM on November 16, 2006


disgusting
posted by tiger yang at 9:08 AM on November 16, 2006


If you start freaking out on police, something bad is going to happen.

Ok, so what is going to happen in a case like this?
posted by dreamsign at 9:10 AM on November 16, 2006


posted by squirrel What really disgusts me is that the mob of students didn't bum rush the situation as it was going down. Rent-a-cops torturing a student with a taser in the middle of the library?! Fuck no.

They are hardly rent a cops.

"Police officers of the UCLA Police Department are duly sworn peace officers under section 830.2(b) of the California Penal Code. The officers of the department are armed and possess the same authority under the law as municipal police officers."
posted by nitsuj at 9:11 AM on November 16, 2006


I think they did a good job! What else were they supposed to do?

I really, really, REALLY want to say "attack the cops". No, it's not productive and would have sparked a huge riot/situation.

But...tasering a someone 'cause they don't have their ID? There's a part of me that would LIKE to see the cops get the shit kicked outta them for pulling this crap. They are there to serve and protect, not taser your ass because you won't stand up.

Again, I'm not saying this would have been the best thing to do. But goddamit, they should NOT have been tasering him.

Sidenote: I never really wanted a camera phone before. Now I want one really badly.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:13 AM on November 16, 2006



Kitty Genovese had the same complaint.


I was thinking of that as I wrote my first post, but there ARE differences. These were, for better or worse, cops and I can see the situation being confusing at first: was there really a threat? are the cops actually preventing a major crime or some such.

Kitty, on the other hand, was just raped and there should be no question about defending her from that.

But the overall passiveness of the crowd was very...interesting.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:17 AM on November 16, 2006


damn! that youtube footage (much longer) is much worse....
posted by cgs at 9:19 AM on November 16, 2006


I think the TASER provides a too easy method for the cops to compel obedience from a subject. I hear story after story of someone getting tasered for what is essentially passive resistance, which seems like it was a factor here.

They were't tasering him to stop him doing something illegal; they were tasering him to get him to do something they wanted him to do. They might as well just have beat him with their nightsticks, or tortured him some other way to get him to comply. Is this now standard procedure for police, to counter nonviolent resistance with painful and potentially life-threatening force?
posted by JAHxman at 9:20 AM on November 16, 2006 [8 favorites]


The fact that the officers in question have not already been fired is going to backfire on the administration as the youtube video continues to circulate. I don't know how you can watch that and not know that the officers were out of line. I don't care if he was muslim, brown, or purple! He was a human being whose only offense was forgetting an ID card and not moving fast enough.

And the taser is part of the problem. Those cops would never have shot a person for not having an ID. Nor would they have beat him with nightsticks for not having an ID. But because they had what they perceived as a free pass, they used it.

Can somebody think of a reason that police officers in uniform should not have their names and badge numbers in large characters on their backs like pro athletes?

But yes, now I want a camera phone. Bigger Brother In My Pocket.
posted by ilsa at 9:22 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


What's really interesting that is how many students witnessed this and did nothing except demand badge numbers.

At public universities in the US, there ARE no "rent-a-cops" - they're police officers, with guns. If you bum rush a police officer, they can shoot first and ask questions later.

Saying that, those cops were out of line. It is possible to restrain someone without tasering them.
posted by muddgirl at 9:22 AM on November 16, 2006


Patriot act craziness or simple police overreaction?

Please learn what the Patriot Act is (and isn't). You don't advance your cause by displaying ignorance.
posted by pardonyou? at 9:23 AM on November 16, 2006


Good point, JAHxman. I read similar criticisms when the "Scream" was debuted.
posted by dreamsign at 9:24 AM on November 16, 2006


dreamsign writes "Campus police get TASERS?!"

Why not, many American campus security services carry handguns.

Flashman writes "It's bad enough having these cops walking around 'randomly' asking for people's ID.
"How can even that be happening, in a supposedly free country?"


Private property. You have to police this kind of thing or people off the street will monopolize student resources which isn't fair to those paying to be there. Before we got more aggressive in removing user accounts of former students we had people actually running consulting businesses from our free use labs.
posted by Mitheral at 9:24 AM on November 16, 2006


me, a few minutes ago: Please learn what the Patriot Act is (and isn't). You don't advance your cause by displaying ignorance.

Although, I see now that the individual brought up the Patriot Act as this was happening -- if you were simply parroting his (misguided) comment, my apologies.

Also, to ilsa, police officers, as public employees (and presumably union members), have due process rights before they can be fired. That doesn't necessarily explain why they haven't been suspended pending investigation, though.
posted by pardonyou? at 9:29 AM on November 16, 2006


Saying that, those cops were out of line. It is possible to restrain someone without tasering them.

It is even possible to get someone out of the library without laying a finger on him or her. It is also very likely that the student is "arab-looking" and was singled out, consciously or not, because of this.

If the published (well web published anyway) account is to be believed, the student was taking his time getting to the door, but was indeed heading that way when he was accosted.

No Patriot Act nonsense here, just good old-fashioned new-fangled 21st century racism.
posted by Mister_A at 9:31 AM on November 16, 2006


If the students had rushed the campus security officers then they officers would have called it a riot. They would have got the guns (and I'm wiling to bet they've got them at HQ) and called the swat teams. Then the students would have been killed.

And Fox news and it's apologists here on mefi would have been saying, "well, they shouldn't have rioted, it's their own fault".
posted by nyxxxx at 9:31 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


Its fascinating so many people here think its strange how supposedly passive the crowd was. What do we exactly expect these people to do, start tackling cops, beating them over the head with books and furniture over someone who most of them (for the large majority of them, towards the end) weren't entirely sure was in the right? We aren't even sure he's in the right and that's from the comfort of our houses/offices. I mean, the cops IMO were totally over the line with the repeated taserings (even the intial one), but who here would really know exactly what to do and have the guts to do it in the five or so minutes the whole scene unfolded?

Also, as a totally anecdotal aside, this is the third example this week I've seen of cops outrageously overstepping the line. You know, for what its worth
posted by Boydrop at 9:34 AM on November 16, 2006


Does the Patriot Act require libraries (and possibly computer labs) to identify and track internet usage? It's possible this is what the student was referring to.
posted by splatta at 9:41 AM on November 16, 2006


If a cop asks you to leave the building because you don't have proper ID, and you say no (not once, but multiple times) then you deserve to be tasered. I would have tasered him and then tossed him down the front steps of the library whether he was Muslim or a Flying-Spaghetti-Monsterist.
posted by tadellin at 9:41 AM on November 16, 2006


Yeah, the crowd rushing the cops would have been really stupid - it would have escalated things and probably brought about some really tragic consequences, as the police would have justification for using lethal force.

It seems like the crowd did what they could - questioned the cop's actions, asked them to stop, asked them for their ID, and made sure they knew they were being recorded.
posted by JAHxman at 9:42 AM on November 16, 2006


The incident is disgusting. So is the "what do you expect?" reaction here.
posted by maxwelton at 9:43 AM on November 16, 2006


the UCPD has plenty of pain compliance techniques that are available to them.

these techniques are pressure point techniques. if someone goes limp, charge them with resisting and get a few officers to drag them.

if they are holding onto something, use pressure point or come-along compliance, which is perfectly effective. if they have control of their muscles, they can comply after they decide the pain is too much, and the pain can be unapplied.

shit like this is useless for compliance, its meant to neutralize someone who is actively combative and fighting the police. going limp simply doesnt qualify.

anyway, all of this needs to be considered in light of the fact that the student was LEAVING when the officers ran up and grabbed him. they had no reason to do so. again, it is not standard operating procedure for officers to run up and grab people when making an initial contact if no serious crime has been commited. the first thing they are supposed to do is address the subject. if they werent arresting him, they simply had NO REASON to lay hands on him, doing so is BAD policing, and stupid cops like that also put themselves at risk by acting like retarded cowboys.
posted by mano at 9:43 AM on November 16, 2006


Libraries & the USA Patriot Act.

The USA PATRIOT Act and Patron Privacy on Library Internet Terminals.
posted by ericb at 9:46 AM on November 16, 2006


It is also very likely that the student is "arab-looking" and was singled out

From the second link: "The CSO made an announcement that he would be checking for university identification." I took that to mean that the "random" part of the searching meant the time was random but that they were searching everyone there not that they were only searching random people. Although, I suppose I could be wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm firmly in the "Tasing was unnecessary" camp. However, I don't have a problem with asking him to leave if he can't produce his student ID. Especially if its a known long-standing policy (meaning there are signs posted and what not). But why tase him if he's already leaving, regardless of how many times he had to be asked?

ON PREVIEW: what mano said as well
posted by srw12 at 9:50 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


If a cop asks you to leave the building because you don't have proper ID, and you say no (not once, but multiple times) then you deserve to be tasered.

Damn. So what is a cop justified in doing to you when he pulls you over for a burnt-out headlamp and asks to see your driver's license and you so happened to have forgetten your wallet (with I.D.) upon leaving home earlier?
posted by ericb at 9:51 AM on November 16, 2006


People have often wondered why I carry around a voice recorder with me everywhere. After seeing this, I might be upgrading to a video camera phone soon enough.

What disgusting behavior. But I suppose this is what happens when you give functional retards a badge, gun and taser. Frankly, I think the kid is lucky to be alive. I wouldn't have been surprised if they shot him and claimed he was going for a concealed weapon.
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 9:53 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


I don't understand why 'Muslim' bears on the post. Was the police action somehow connected to the guy's religion? Was there a profiling accusation? I missed that ...
posted by thinkpiece at 9:54 AM on November 16, 2006


Pastabagel, left the thread for a while, but dflemingdotorg answered your question for me.

I've been in this situation before, mostly at organized protests. In these cases, I started to comply with the initial request from the first one or two officers. Then, as more cops start showing up, the situation gets distorted, cops get more aggressive in front of their buddies, and you naturally end up taking a more defensive posture, really out of self-preservation. I would never trust a cop's inclination not to overreact, and would be looking at the quickest out I could find.

I think some people would go limp in those cases, but that's never been my natural response.
posted by psmealey at 9:55 AM on November 16, 2006


I think the TASER provides a too easy method for the cops to compel obedience from a subject. I hear story after story of someone getting tasered for what is essentially passive resistance, which seems like it was a factor here.

What a fucking surprise that cops with cattle prods will use them to herd people like cattle.

AFAICS, non-lethal weapons deployed casually (as they always are, coz, hey, they're non-lethal (within a certain margin of error)) have a strong tendency for to be abused.

It's even easier than turning the firehose on people, because you don't even need to carry the hose or wrench. All your officers are already equipped with nice non-lethal body moving implements.
posted by sonofsamiam at 9:55 AM on November 16, 2006


It doesn't really matter who you're 'with' on this - 3 or more cops can't peaceably escort a lanky computer student out of the labs, no matter how childish he may have been acting? Dear... to me that demonstrates at least two things: An abuse of force, and a lack of training and/or common sense for the cops involved.

On a side note - is that all it takes to make several dozen students at UCLA largely unresponsive to the abuse of one of their colleagues? "what's your badge number", "Shut up or I'll taser you", "okay, sorry sir!" holy shit... that's weak. But then again, if you're face to face with someone who tasers a person without batting an eyelid, i might reserve my rights a more organized affront for later.

It seems to me that the only reason more cops would show up is if they premeditated the decision to use a taser, and anticipated a larger student reaction... (I'm overlooking the possibility that the cops are just completely disorganized and thoughtless buffoons here).

As an aside, if 1 protesting college student needs a group of cops to subdue him, then it's no wonder why the crime rate in america is where it's at. With those ratios, the real criminals practically have free range.
posted by wumpus at 9:56 AM on November 16, 2006


where does it even say he was a muslim?
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:57 AM on November 16, 2006


These were, for better or worse, cops

I think we can safely say "for worse" is the proper choice here.
posted by languagehat at 9:58 AM on November 16, 2006


Funny how this is always a case of

"simple (but horribly stupid) police overreaction"

if it happens in California or New York.


If it happened in the South, I think what happened in this case would be more obvious. Quit pretending. How do you do a random search of people in a library? I would love to see how that procedure is spelled out because I don't think the CSOs in this case had one. As for the students, come on the police have shown themselves to use excessive force. Who would want to be next and have to deal with the legal mess which would ensue?
posted by j-urb at 9:58 AM on November 16, 2006


If a cop asks you to leave the building because you don't have proper ID, and you say no (not once, but multiple times) then you deserve to be tasered. I would have tasered him and then tossed him down the front steps of the library whether he was Muslim or a Flying-Spaghetti-Monsterist.

No, you deserve to be potentially cuffed and removed from the premises, not inflicted physical punishment.

Christ, the fact anyone has this train of thought is scary.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 10:00 AM on November 16, 2006


"The incident is disgusting. So is the "what do you expect?" reaction here." Maxwelton, since I made the "what did he expect" comment, I'll respond to this.

I'm at work and can't watch the video, all I have is the written account (which I quoted in my original comment), my "what did he expect" was an honest question. I know exactly what will happen if I refuse a reasonable request (to show my id when on private and regulated property), I know what to expect if I get loud with an officer.. I honestly wonder what this student thought would happen when he, according to the article, refused to comply with an officer.

You'll also note I stated I was holding my judgement on this until I had more information, not that I agreed with the officer(s). What exactly is your problem with this approach and why do you find it so "disgusting"?

Sorry I didn't jump on the horse and join the lynch mob, but I'm not sure all the objective reports are in yet...
posted by HuronBob at 10:00 AM on November 16, 2006


Does the Patriot Act require libraries (and possibly computer labs) to identify and track internet usage? It's possible this is what the student was referring to.

Well, the Patriot Act's application to library records is a point of controversy, to be sure. But it's a federal law -- University police have no role in enforcement of it (nor, for that matter, do any state or local agencies).
posted by pardonyou? at 10:01 AM on November 16, 2006


Dr. Twist, I may have missed it elsewhere, but the only Muslim reference I've seen is in the poster's headline.
posted by thinkpiece at 10:06 AM on November 16, 2006


I honestly wonder what this student thought would happen when he, according to the article, refused to comply with an officer.

You know, you are not always legally required to comply with just any old thing an officer asks. Without knowing the school's policies, the student could have been well within his rights.
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:06 AM on November 16, 2006


ericb: nothing. my understanding is that you have anywhere from 24 - 48 hours (in most jurisdictions) to produce identification or proof of insurance.
posted by casconed at 10:07 AM on November 16, 2006


Stupid cops, badly trained, use "non-lethal" weapons to torture non-complaint suspect. Tasering is out of control, and needs to be more strictly regulated.
posted by orthogonality at 10:08 AM on November 16, 2006


You Americans. What kind of country are you living in?

I hope that if I'm ever unfortunate enough to witness a scene like this that I'm brave enough to intervene. Those on the scene who asked for badge numbers did the right thing. The guy who recorded the incident did the right thing.
posted by mr. strange at 10:08 AM on November 16, 2006


How do you do a random search of people in a library?

I think the timing was random, but everyone got checked.
posted by thirteenkiller at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2006


Some of you people are not paying attention.

COPS didnt ask him to leave.

"Community service officers" (CSO), which are students hired to be little helper monkeys to the police, asked him to leave. He gave them shit, and was leaving when the real cops busted into the scene.

Immediately, the REAL cops, even though they had no reason to lay hands on him, since he was complying at that point, and they had not even assessed the situation, laid hands on him.

He protested, verbally, and when they did not release him, went limp.

Then he was tased, and this began the whole ordeal, which only got more fucked up.

A. Those of you who think that it was a problem that he was uncooperative, and see "no reason for it", you should know that police are trained to deal with uncooperative suspects.
They are professionals, and public servants, and it is wrong for them to take things personally. They are not allowed to.

The reason for this is not to make cops' lives miserable, its because in situations in which emotions or stakes run high, in situations in which a cop ... *gasp*... may be wrong, people will be PISSED OFF. Anger does not indicate wrong doing, we have the right to be pissed off, upset, indignant, less than cooperative, and we dont sacrifice our rights because of it. Reacting to indignation with force does nothign to resolve the indignation, or help the resolution of the situation.

B. Those of you who think that it is a problem that the student didnt produce ID should know that unless he is being arrested - BY POLICE - he doesnt have to show anyone ID. Even if police detain you, they cant force you to show ID.

Thats why he's not charged with anything other than obstruction, because he did nothing illegal by not showing his ID.

I suspect the CSO's who asked him for ID told the cops a story about this guy who was being a dick to them and not showing ID (not respecting their authorita as not-real-cops), and this got the real cops all riled up, and they showed up to the scene ready to throw down on behalf of their wiener helper monkeys who had been disrespected. They needed to push the guy around to teach him a lesson, and it went from there.

C. All the people trying so hard to see the "cops side" of it, thats you trying to personalize their experience. Thats not a luxury cops (should) get. Police work is a job that should be done professionally as a public service, rather than vindictively and tinged with personal bias. When you look at the justice system, the moment it becomes personal, whether its a cop, a judge, a lawyer, anyone, people are expected to step the fuck back and out of the situation. These cops are not cut out for the job, they took it way too far, and made it personal.
posted by mano at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2006 [13 favorites]


Mitheral,
UCLA is a state-funded institution. I'm not sure what their rules are, but at my state university we are required by law to allow all community members access to our resources. Granted only there are some areas that are password protected, like certain database we pay for, but as a general rule, anybody who walks in off the street is entitled to use our library resources. Of course, you have to be student, faculty, staff, alum or community resident to check books out, but to sit and read stuff on the computer...you don't need nothing.

This was excessive, ridiculous and a clear violation of rational thought.
posted by teleri025 at 10:18 AM on November 16, 2006


On a side note - is that all it takes to make several dozen students at UCLA largely unresponsive to the abuse of one of their colleagues? "what's your badge number", "Shut up or I'll taser you", "okay, sorry sir!" holy shit... that's weak. But then again, if you're face to face with someone who tasers a person without batting an eyelid, i might reserve my rights a more organized affront for later.

Watch the youtube video. I'm actually very proud of the students for standing up for their right to watch and document the incident, to get the badge numbers of the cops, and so on. They didn't just ask once. There's a lot going on.

As the cops were dragging the student out the door (he was limp), they tasered him again. You can see him go rigid, flail, and then go limp. The crowd that was gathered around the scene surges forward, and one (very scared looking) cop is acting as a barricade. Some is saying, "You don't want to do this, you don't want to do this," although I don't know if he was talking to the students or the cops. The drag the student down to the lobby of the library, and you can see that yes, there are a lot of people (who are completely unfamiliar with the situaiton) not doing anything (why should they? all they see is some guy getting tasered). There are also students engaging the cops, over and over. Maybe they're helping, and maybe they're just pissing them off. Who's to say?

To you people who say it's OK to taser him, because he didn't have an ID, and was leaving too slowly. Would it have been ok to pepper spray him? to hit him with a billy club? to pull out a gun and threaten to shoot him? Where do you, personally, draw the line at excessive force?
posted by muddgirl at 10:18 AM on November 16, 2006


nothing. my understanding is that you have anywhere from 24 - 48 hours (in most jurisdictions) to produce identification or proof of insurance.

Exactly. In this case where a student doesn't have his I.D. card on him, it is hard for me to see how using a taser was justified. As has been mentioned, if the officers truly felt threatened, why not ask him to lie down and cuff him? Or, as others have suggested, drag him out of the building?
posted by ericb at 10:20 AM on November 16, 2006


Once again, I must say that Portland Police Bureau has it all over your wimpy California cops and their wimpy tasering.

A couple of years ago, Portland cops shot and killed an unarmed black guy on a traffic stop and then they tasered him for 3 minutes, 19 seconds.
posted by leftcoastbob at 10:26 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


Can you see any raging cop erections during the tasering?

It seems to me that police departments tend to put the biggest pricks on the least-important duty.
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:29 AM on November 16, 2006


UCLA is a state-funded institution.

"UCLA is a public institution, which means its Library facilities and collections are accessible to residents of the state of California as well as people from across the country and around the world....Persons not affiliated with the university such as guests, visitors, and members of the general public may enter library facilities to use collections and services" -- UCLA Library User Rights and Responsibilities.

So -- a random person off of the street has access to the library facilities.
posted by ericb at 10:30 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


[This is disturbing]
posted by knave at 10:31 AM on November 16, 2006


It takes a big man (and four of his friends!) to taser an unarmed college kid.
posted by StopMakingSense at 10:32 AM on November 16, 2006


"Private property. You have to police this kind of thing or people off the street will monopolize student resources which isn't fair to those paying to be there." (emphasis mine)

Excuse me? What part of "University of California" do you not comprehend? It's a public school. Which I support with my taxes, directly.

That said, sure the school has a right to keep non-students out of the computer lab and library. However, violence was clearly uncalled for in this case.
posted by zoogleplex at 10:35 AM on November 16, 2006


Excellent post, mano.
posted by dobbs at 10:36 AM on November 16, 2006


See, the problem is that when police get out of line, over-react, or mis-react, you have no recourse. None. And if you get one of 'em that has a hard-on for imposing his will on others, you're seriously screwed. He's tasering you and demand you to do something that may be physically impossible? Well you're gonna get tasered again. He's punching you in the face? Don't cover up -- that's Resisting Arrest.

(And the neat thing is you never really know when you're "under arrest" vs. a free man. They don't have to tell you "you're under arrest" or anything and just sorta decide later when they're deciding what charges to press.)

So what's a responsible bystander to do? If you interfere, you may well get yourself shot. At the very least, you'll be charged with Obstructing Justice. Guess you could always call the cops -- haha, just kidding... So I guess all you can do is video the event and hope it gets sorted out later. ...although, oopsie, you can be charged with felony eavesdropping for videotaping police officers. And if they maime or kill the guy? Oh well. There's nothing you could have done without putting your life and liberty at great risk. It truly is best not to get involved. So sorry if the "perp" is your brother, your wife, your son, or your friend -- or even "just" a fellow American.

It's not right. Police are fond of saying that a first-time offender was just caught the first time. Probably true most of the time. Similarly, I'll bet that for every case of police abuse that gets recorded, there are 100 that aren't. And without a video, it's just your word against theirs.

Who watches the watchmen? (YouTube, apparently...)

Haven't watched the vid, as I'm at work, but we mostly certainly did have rent-a-cops (Crowe Security) back when I was in school, 10-15yrs ago; many of 'em were students. We had real cops in the mix as well -- you could tell them by their swaggar. (seriously.)
posted by LordSludge at 10:37 AM on November 16, 2006 [5 favorites]


And just to be clear - your constitutional and other rights are not a magic monster-proof blanket that keep you from coming to harm. If the students at the scene had done anything beyond what is described here (can't watch video now), they would have risked serious injury or death, civil, constitutional, and other rights be damned. They did the right thing - they captured the police officers' identities and documented the incident. Now the legal system will determine which rights were trampled and which laws broken, and mete out justice. One would hope.
posted by Mister_A at 10:37 AM on November 16, 2006


The solution to bullshit like this is to treat a taser shooting exactly the same way the treat a gun shooting.

Automatically put the cop on desk duty and start an investigation. If they had do deal with that everytime they tasered somebody, they wouldn't do it unless they felt they had no other choice.
posted by empath at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2006 [3 favorites]


Obviously the police over-reacted here, but I'm mostly wondering why on earth there are armed police wandering the University campus in the first place? When I was at Uni, there were a couple of security guards on the Main Gate, and in the foyer of some buildings; you certainly never saw them roaming about harrassing folk over forgetting their library card.
posted by jack_mo at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2006


That said, sure the school has a right to keep non-students out of the computer lab and library. However, violence was clearly uncalled for in this case.

User Rights and Responsibilities
"All those who use computers in the libraries are expected to take proper care of the equipment. When accessing library computers and networks, users are expected to comply with the university's Communications Technology Services' Acceptable Use Policy..."
Anyone is permitted to use the library computers, as long as they abide by campus regulations for their use.
posted by ericb at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2006


No one asked the real question : WHAT THE FUCK POLICE DOING IN A CAMPUS?????
posted by zouhair at 10:42 AM on November 16, 2006


Several of the police officers were asked for their names and badge numbers (not once, but multiple times) and refused. I guess someone (one of the bystanders or a fellow officer) should have 'tased' them to make them comply.
posted by gruchall at 10:42 AM on November 16, 2006


The CSOs left, returning minutes later, and police officers arrived to escort the student out. By this time the student had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, at which point the student told the officer to let him go. A second officer then approached the student as well.

Another thing. I don't think the cops are monsters. They shouldn't be held down and tasered to see what it's like, or anything. The above quote seems to indicate bad training, more than anything else. Either that, or a willful disregard for their job. After the first cop starts it, the other cops will back him up, because they don't know the situation. All they know is that this student is 'resisting an officer'.
posted by muddgirl at 10:43 AM on November 16, 2006


This was an ideal example of effective nonviolence. By just going limp and refusing to get up, he exposed the violence of the officers. By asking it to stop and getting rebuffed, the students further exposed the injustice.

If the students had applied force, it would have become *their* fault, and the police could be believed in saying it was a dangerous situation.

Not all things are best solved by violence. Apparently it isn't just the current ruling class that needs that lesson here.
posted by Bovine Love at 10:47 AM on November 16, 2006 [7 favorites]


on post: thanks ericb.
posted by zoogleplex at 10:47 AM on November 16, 2006


gruchall: Several of the police officers were asked for their names and badge numbers (not once, but multiple times) and refused. I guess someone (one of the bystanders or a fellow officer) should have 'tased' them to make them comply.

Sure -- after all, it's non-lethal. What's the problem??
posted by LordSludge at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2006


"Those bystanders should have been all over the guy they were torturing."

What? Have you ever used yourself as a human shield to protect someone from the police? Do you seriously expect people to physically confront armed LE officers over some guy refusing to show ID. I don't know about UCLA but around here the campus police are sworn officers with arrest powers and real guns - they're not Rent-A-Cops.

They shouldn't have TASERed the guy though. Whatever happened to the good old-fashioned "hit them in the head with your baton several times and then drag them out by their feet" technique?

And what's does the student's religion have to do with it? Oh, that's so we can play the "Racist Redneck Cop" card.
posted by MikeMc at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2006


Yeah, this is really disgusting.

I'm wondering just how often these sort of incidents happen when there's no cameras around.
posted by stinkycheese at 10:49 AM on November 16, 2006


Though I think it is disgusting, I'm sure the investigation will find that the student's struggling justified the tasing. But I can't imagine any defense for the incident where the woman asks for the badge number, and the cop responds by threatening to tase her too.
posted by beniamino at 10:49 AM on November 16, 2006


Whether or not he is a Muslim, he certainly has a Muslim name. Think about it for a moment, if you were a student with a muslim name, wouldn't you think twice about whether it was a good idea to carry your ID around?

Suppose you got stopped by some super patriot cop-- you might reasonably fear almost anything once certain people in authority in this country right now have their hands on you and think you're a Muslim, from beating and baseless detention right on up to and including extraordinary rendition, if your name happens to resemble one on certain lists.

According to one of the articles, he wasn't shot with the Taser, they used it in "drive stun" mode, which means they were using it like a cattle prod, and I'm sure it felt like one. I would be very interested to see any legitimate justfication of using a cattle prod on a person under restraint. It looks to me as if they were, in fact, torturing him out of sadistic anger.
posted by jamjam at 10:53 AM on November 16, 2006


That is absolutely horrible.

Two thoughts come to mind: first involves the nastiness of the police mentality. They show no concern whatsoever for the humanity of their arrestee. Or for the people they are hired to protect. As far as I can tell, they want obedience, plain and simple, from this guy. There were a sufficient number of cops simply to cuff and carry him from the building, but they insisted on tasering him multiple times for the bare act of non-compliance with their demands. Disgusting.

Second: although this sort of thing is terrifying, it's also amazing that we live in a time when any schmuck with a camera phone can record and publicize these events instantaneously. If the issue of police militarization and brutality ever comes up for serious public debate, it will be thanks to these sorts of technologies that the conversation will be an informed one.
posted by felix betachat at 10:53 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


why on earth there are armed police wandering the University campus in the first place?

They are supposed to be sensitive to the types of issues that are common on campus. It is pretty common, although I've heard of some motions to eliminate them at some universities in Canada. Wiki has a page on University police:
As a result of the domestic violence and mass civil disturbances found across the nation in the 1960s and early 1970s, campus security often proved ineffective against riots and other violent civil demonstrations. This occasionally resulted in injury to both the students and the officers. These campus security officers were often either poorly or untrained, ineffectively led and generally unprepared to effectively respond to these turbulent and unanticipated events. Creation of university/campus police departments began at this time across the nation. Statutory laws were passed and necessary regulations were enacted to provide these officers with the necessary statutory authority to perform their expanded roles. Campus security officers were required to meet higher training and educational standards. Further training was given to officers to deal with campus-specific issues (including non-violent crisis management and riot training).
Emphasis mine, of course..
posted by Chuckles at 10:56 AM on November 16, 2006


I hope he sues the crap out of them. Those cops were torturing the poor guy.
posted by bshort at 10:56 AM on November 16, 2006


if you were a student with a muslim name, wouldn't you think twice about whether it was a good idea to carry your ID around?

No? I'm a student with a Muslim name but I don't worry about the fact that I'm Muslim when deciding what credentials to grab on my way out… your religion doesn't tend to bear on your decision-making process in that way.

But then I'm in Boston.
posted by Firas at 10:57 AM on November 16, 2006


Nothing but nothing justifies the behavior of these thugs with badges. This student's only crime was being brown in the wrong place. These sadistic motherfuckers had made their minds up to kick his ass before he "resisted".

"Get up or we taze you again?" There were half a dozen of them! You're telling me the "suspect" couldn't have been carried? And their refusal to make with the badge numbers! Unbelieveable!

I used to regard the camera phone as a pointless toy. Now I'm thinking I ought to get one.
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:08 AM on November 16, 2006


The OP seems to be drawing a connection between the victim being a Muslim, the Patriot Act, and the behavior of the cops. Do we now automatically assume that the guy's religion has something to do with how the cops overreacted, and that they were hyped about terrorism? As far as I can tell, that is an inference on the OP's part, and is unnecessarily inflammatory.
posted by thinkpiece at 11:09 AM on November 16, 2006


I suspec that the student's appearance played a large part in this unhappy drama, thinkpiece.

The Patriot Act reference is a red herring though.
posted by Mister_A at 11:12 AM on November 16, 2006


*suspect
posted by Mister_A at 11:12 AM on November 16, 2006


bshort: I hope he sues the crap out of them. Those cops were torturing the poor guy.

The lousy thing is that if he sues and wins, say, a punitive $10 million judgement, it will come from either University funds, to be paid with student tuition, or from public funds, to be paid by taxpayers. Hurray.

If it was me, I'd want the cop, himself, to stand criminal trial, with a full investigation of training techniques, possible charges of his superiors, etc.

Furthermore, I think any crime committed in the guise of a govt authority should automatically TRIPLE the normal penalty. It's much, much worse when those in positions of authority betray that trust, because you have no recourse, no one to call for help. In addition, they have the whole good-ole-boy system to help cover for them, so they're less likely to be prosecuted or convicted in the first place without ironclad (video) proof -- and even THAT isn't enough in many cases.
posted by LordSludge at 11:12 AM on November 16, 2006 [3 favorites]


is anyone else getting a Kent State vibe from this? it's not as severe, but there was an eerie similarity brewing in my mind when i watched the tape. those posting that the students should have rushed the cops are way off.
posted by ambulance blues at 11:14 AM on November 16, 2006


Fuck tha police
Comin straight from the underground
Young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown
And not the other color so police think
They have the authority to kill a minority

Fuck that shit, cuz I ain't tha one
For a punk muthafucka with a badge and a gun
To be beatin on, and throwin in jail
We could go toe to toe in the middle of a cell

Fuckin with me cuz I'm a teenager
With a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin my car, lookin for the product
Thinkin every nigga is sellin narcotics

You'd rather see me in the pen
Then me and Lorenzo rollin in the Benzo
Beat tha police outta shape
And when I'm finished, bring the yellow tape
To tape off the scene of the slaughter
Still can't swallow bread and water

I don't know if they fags or what
Search a nigga down and grabbin his nuts
And on the other hand, without a gun they can't get none
But don't let it be a black and a white one
Cuz they slam ya down to the street top
Black police showin out for the white cop

Ice Cube will swarm
On any muthafucka in a blue uniform
Just cuz I'm from the CPT, punk police are afraid of me
A young nigga on a warpath
And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath
Of cops, dyin in LA
Yo Dre, I got somethin to say

Fuck the police
posted by afx114 at 11:15 AM on November 16, 2006


The above quote seems to indicate bad training, more than anything else.

Not really. I mean sure, the official training tells them not to pull this kind of shit, but.. Somebody up thread had it, they are teaching him a lesson.

So ya, I guess it is bad training, in the objective and non-ironic sense. It really depends on what you think police are for, and how you think interactions between police and regular fold should go. It is great training, for example, if you want to make citizens act like sheep.

After the first cop starts it, the other cops will back him up, because they don't know the situation. All they know is that this student is 'resisting an officer'.

Because if one were to intervene to calm the situation, that would be an admission that your fellow officer messed up. Any escalation in the conflict was the fault of the perp, after all.

Teach the lesson: respect authority! What else is education for?
posted by Chuckles at 11:15 AM on November 16, 2006


as the OP, i admit the title is too heavy handed... i was going to include this link from The American Muslim but chose not to since it doesn't have any new information. Just that the Southern California office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations is calling for a probe on the incident.

i apologize for unnecessary inflammation. but then i'm also one of the disgusting cop apologists in this thread.
posted by cgs at 11:18 AM on November 16, 2006


ericb writes "a random person off of the street has access to the library facilities."

Which results in the questions: Why were they asking for ID and Why were they evicting people without.

zoogleplex writes "What part of 'University of California' do you not comprehend? It's a public school. Which I support with my taxes, directly."

Lots of places are owned by the people without giving the people access. You can't just wonder into the Whitehouse any time you feel like it. Also most public elementary and high schools control who can use their facilities. I see from ericb's posting that the general public does have access to library facilities in the University of California system but that doesn't immediately follow from the name. It sure isn't the case at my publicly funded institution. Even in the UC system I'd bet there are facilities and labs that aren't open to the public.
posted by Mitheral at 11:25 AM on November 16, 2006


Which results in the questions: Why were they asking for ID and Why were they evicting people without.

Since the incident took place at 11:30 p.m., it's conceivable that the university may have a policy for student/faculty-only access to the library "after-hours."
posted by ericb at 11:32 AM on November 16, 2006


This just occurred to me: for all those who are saying that the fact that this guy is a Muslim is irrelevant, imagine an alternative situation: a blond, sorority girl type gets agitated when a security guard threatens to eject her from the building for not having ID. There are so many ways this situation would be resolved prior to the tasers coming out that it boggles the mind.

I wouldn't say that the guy was necessarily tased because he's a Muslim. But it seems fair enough to say that if he hadn't been Muslim, all parties would have made a much more concerted effort to defuse the situation before it got ugly.

The coercive power of the state depends on a presupposition of illegitimacy to operate effectively. Today, Muslims labor under that assumption, even if it only becomes evident in extraordinary situations like this one.
posted by felix betachat at 11:35 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


Effective policing does not mean abusive policing. Effective policing does not ignore the constitutional rights and the civil liberties that police officers are sworn to uphold. On the Ninth Street side of the Justice Department building, inscribed across the top, are the words describing the law that we live under. "The common law is derived from the will of mankind, issuing from the life of the people, framed through mutual confidence, sanctioned by the light of reason." For police officers to be effective, their enforcement of the law must be framed in mutual confidence between the people served and the people who serve them. Every American must respect the law, but the law must respect every American.
--Attorney General Janet Reno speaking to the National Press Club, 4/15/99

I didn't realize how easy gold teeth can be removed
--Richmond County, GA sheriff's deputy Jason Izquierdo on MySpace
posted by TedW at 11:36 AM on November 16, 2006


Do we now automatically assume that the guy's religion has something to do with how the cops overreacted,

I've read that disingenuous observation three or four times in this thread. Obviously they couldn't see the guys religion, obviously it is the fact that he was brown. Are you seriously suggesting that his skin colour had nothing to do with what happened? What happened was all about race, sex, and age.
posted by Chuckles at 11:37 AM on November 16, 2006


I hate this country.
posted by blacklite at 11:38 AM on November 16, 2006


"Do we now automatically assume that the guy's religion has something to do with how the cops overreacted, and that they were hyped about terrorism?"

Hm. Well, let's make a substitution and see what happens. UCLA has a very large Asian-American and Asian population, with students from pretty much everywhere in eastern Asia, including, for the sake of argument, Koreans.

If this kid had been Korean, and the cops had assumed he was a North Korean just from looking at him, and had acted the same way, would that have been justified? I mean, y'know, Axis of Evil and all that?

There's no shortage of students of Iranian descent at UCLA either. How about one of them?

Are Koreans and Iranians included in the pool of potential terrorists? Or is it just people who look stereotypically Muslim and have Muslim names?

I'm going overboard here, but the point is that this treatment shouldn't be applied to anyone of any culture, ethnicity or nationality who simply fails to produce an ID in a public university library. If they did it to some blonde kid from Orange County the reaction should be exactly the same.

The appearance that they don't seem to do this to Koreans and blonde kids from the OC should be examined, yes? I'm betting you folks who think (not without some realistic justification, I'll grant) "what did he expect would happen" might react just a little differently if it was some blonde kid from OC.

This police behavior is inexcusable no matter what color the student is and should be condemned on its face, but then you ask if the cops responded inappropriately to him because of their anti-terrorist training or mindset and perception of his ethnicity and/or religion, and add to their condemnation accordingly.

Argh... reading this back I'm not sure i'm communicating effectively, but I'm rushing cuz I'm busy at work... sigh.
posted by zoogleplex at 11:39 AM on November 16, 2006


HuronBob, I wasn't really calling you out specifically, apologies about that. I was calling out the fact that there seems to be a fairly significant chunk of the population that venerates police and desires and demands unwitting obedience to any and all authority.
posted by maxwelton at 11:47 AM on November 16, 2006


Okay -- you really do have to watch the longer YouTube video -- unbelievable and chilling. How is it at all justified?
posted by ericb at 11:50 AM on November 16, 2006


I'm not being disingenuous, ok, Chuckles? I think it's a bit premature to trot out the Muslim-Patriot Act connection, and I think it was done to cast this mess in a certain light and draw a certain response. The acts of violence and abuse of power I witnessed on the video were abhorrent enough -- and I have no doubt his skin color was a factor. I just can't leap to the conclusion that the cops assumed the guys was a Muslim, and therefore, a terrorist threat.
posted by thinkpiece at 11:51 AM on November 16, 2006


O - B - E - Y and maybe, just maybe, you can keep the cattleprods out of your ass.
posted by EatTheWeak at 11:51 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


BTW -- in that YouTube video you can see other students who are using their cameraphones ... so, I suspect we'll see further documentation. I wouldn't be surprised if some students hold a protest rally this evening, as a result of this incident.
posted by ericb at 11:52 AM on November 16, 2006


I just can't leap to the conclusion that the cops assumed the guys was a Muslim, and therefore, a terrorist threat.

Nope. All you have to conclude is that, being Muslim, the cops didn't feel obliged to handle the situation the way they would with, say, a huffy blond chick with a ponytail. It's called "prejudice" for a reason. Certain factors are "pre-judged" and certain responses that would otherwise be off limits become possible, even necessary.
posted by felix betachat at 11:54 AM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]


whatever guys, there's a sign on the door that clearly says "Bring your student ID, or your ass will be tased four times, even if you're trying to leave - especially if you're brown."
posted by wumpus at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2006


good call felix batachat; i would've enjoyed this video a lot more if some yuppie, yoga-outfit wearing bubblegum chewing blonde were getting her ass tased.
oh my god, a new fetish! sweet.
posted by wumpus at 11:59 AM on November 16, 2006


UCLA community responds to Taser use in Powell.
posted by ericb at 12:00 PM on November 16, 2006


"UCPD Assistant Chief of Police Jeff Young said the checks are a standard procedure in the library after 11 p.m.

"Because of the safety of the students we limit the use after 11 to just students, staff and faculty," Young said."
posted by ericb at 12:01 PM on November 16, 2006


The reason the Patriot act has been brought up is because, in the video, you can hear somebody (the tased student?) yelling "Here's your patriot act!"
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:01 PM on November 16, 2006


That video is really, really disturbing. Watch it before you make any more comments.
posted by zoogleplex at 12:02 PM on November 16, 2006


"A six-minute video showed Tabatabainejad audibly screaming in pain as he was stunned several times with a Taser, each time for three to five seconds....But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so."
posted by ericb at 12:04 PM on November 16, 2006


Yes, the video clearly shows that he was tased, not just multiple times, but multiple times separated by many seconds, as he was taken from room to room, he was tased repeatedly.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:04 PM on November 16, 2006


As has been amply said, this is outrageous. Cops get a lot of leeway in my book, they do a rough job for shit pay and deal with everybody's worst moments.

This is way, way past the line. Telling the guy he has to show ID or get out? Fine. Grabbing him and trying to push him out? Assholish but pretty common. The kid was being a dick, the cops weren't patient enough. Even the first tasering, I could almost justify. You have to give the guy on the line in the situation the benefit of the doubt, he may have thought that, outnumbered by students, getting the kid under control was his first priority to avoid a riot. I'm not saying he was right or that there shouldn't be consequences for misjudging and overreacting like that, but I can at least understand the situation.

Tasering the guy, repeatedly, while he's cuffed and limp? No. That's never, not ever, not once acceptable. That's torture.
posted by Skorgu at 12:08 PM on November 16, 2006


UCLA Bruins Student Blog: Eyewitness Accounts.
posted by ericb at 12:13 PM on November 16, 2006


This is not new to the UC system.
posted by spiderskull at 12:13 PM on November 16, 2006


He was tased because he didn't stand up and walk. It doesn't matter whether he was "going limp" to resist the cops or was physically incapacitated. With that many cops there, they could have just picked him up and carried him out. That still wouldn't have been good, but it's better than tasering him.

I'd guess that if there hadn't been tasers available, they would have just picked him up.

Also, you can see that he's already handcuffed when they tase him the second time. Tasering a person who's already under restraint and not resisting violently is pretty sadistic.
posted by zoogleplex at 12:16 PM on November 16, 2006


No one asked the real question : WHAT THE FUCK POLICE DOING IN A CAMPUS?????

THEY'RE CAMPUS POLICE

Every big school has its own police. They're often rather useful. Sometimes there are real crimes!
posted by thirteenkiller at 12:17 PM on November 16, 2006


It sure isn't the case at my publicly funded institution.

I think you're probably wrong.. The key being that it is a library system. For UofT it is hard to find an explicit statement, but I finally did come up with something - Who can use U of T libraries..
Who can use U of T libraries?
(Information for non- U of T students, faculty, researchers,etc.)


Material in almost all U of T libraries may be used by non-U of T visitors, but only U of T card holders, faculty and graduate students from other Ontario universities, and those who have purchased alumni or research reader cards may borrow material.

Important for Robarts Library Users

While anyone may use Robarts material in the building, only those with U of T library cards have access to the Book Stacks (where most of the books and journals are kept).

Visitors to Robarts may request material from the Book Stacks by presenting titles and Robarts call numbers for items to the Information wicket at the Loans Services desk on the first floor of Robarts.

During fall and winter terms (after Thanksgiving until mid-May), the stack retrieval service operates

* Monday - Friday at 11:00 am, 3:00 pm and 6:30 pm
* Saturday at 11:00 am and 3:00 pm.
* Sunday at 3:00 pm.

During summer session (mid-May to Thanksgiving), there is no Friday evening retrieval.

Requests take between 30-60 minutes to be delivered. As these hours may change without notice, please call 978-8450 (x0) for confirmation before coming to campus.

posted by Chuckles at 12:26 PM on November 16, 2006


That blockquote should have been trimmed a bit.. Sorry!
posted by Chuckles at 12:27 PM on November 16, 2006


"Patriot act craziness or simple police overreaction"

Generally I call bullshit on stories of police brutality, but I'm gonna go with "severe overreaction." These guys went way overboard.
In the beginning of the video, you hear him screaming "DON'T TOUCH ME!" At that point, they should have simply said "Ok, you're coming with us" and cuffed the guy and taken him outside. I do not think the taser was necessary at all. This whole situation could have been resolved without tasering the guy.

These turkeys should have also initiated an EMS response the second they learned this guy had some sort of a medical condition. (We still don't know what the condition was.. do we?)

It's too bad. Most cops I know are cool people. It just takes a couple hotheads to give all of them a negative image.
posted by drstein at 12:27 PM on November 16, 2006


After viewing the video, instinctively I would have beaten the shit out of the cops for abusing their power, ideally with the help of the nearby college students ; but it seems that fear of authority and fear of tasering or worse stopped most of them (at least from what I can gather from the video) but at least they took some video.

Also, that wouldn't solve the problem of cops turning criminal abusers, expecially if the system protects them because "they are fighting terrah ! " or some other bullshit excuse.

it's the sense of impunity , the propension to use violence just because it is more convenient, the consideration of the person as subhuman that can be tortured. I wouldn't make an example of them, I would make an example of the people who enabled them, "trained" them and allowed them to exercise the power the way they did.
posted by elpapacito at 12:27 PM on November 16, 2006


For those screaming "its a public funded university, the public have the right to use the facilities". I work at a state funded university where some of the funding comes from the public (taxes). But not ALL the funding comes from taxes.

All the computer labs on our campus are funded from student fees, so our policy is that you have to be a student (or faculty) to use those computer labs. If UCLA has a similar setup and policy on that campus then they have every right to ask for student IDs. And if you cannot prove your identity as a rightful user, to then eject the offender.

That said, this is a bad situation that got way out of hand, and I deplore the use of tasers in this manner.
posted by JigSawMan at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2006


Every big school has its own police.

No, many countries get along fine without them.

Sometimes there are real crimes!

And history suggests that at UC at least, the police are often used against the students, rather than to protect them.
posted by beniamino at 12:29 PM on November 16, 2006


Okay -- you really do have to watch the longer YouTube video -- unbelievable and chilling.

Okay, I did. Man, I hate cops. Don't tell me about "a rough job for shit pay"—sanitation workers do a rough job for shit pay and somehow they manage not to throw people to the ground and beat the shit out of them because they don't like their looks or the guy didn't do exactly what they wanted.

imagine an alternative situation: a blond, sorority girl type gets agitated when a security guard threatens to eject her from the building for not having ID

Exactly. If you think there's even the slightest chance such a girl would get tased, or even treated roughly, you're out of your mind. It would be "Excuse me, ma'am, I hate to do this, but we're