April 13, 2002
6:21 AM Subscribe
No matter who is right or wrong in the Israel/Palestine matter, this op-ed piece in the NY Times (login metafi/metafi) pulls at the hearstrings. When the war rhetoric is put to one side and you look at the human reasons why Israel is sticking to its guns, it may make a little more sense. Israelis do have strong reasons for keeping their backs to the wall.
What a load of crap. Basically this is another in a series of articles where Israelis or their supporters pat themselves on the back for not committing genocide. Yes we killed hundreds of civilians and are battling over land we know we eventually give back, but at least we didn't kill them all! Way to go, guys.
posted by chaz at 12:29 PM on April 13, 2002
posted by chaz at 12:29 PM on April 13, 2002
Good point Chaz.
You must live in Israel.
After all, I mean, what's 500-ish Israeli's blown up at discoteques, pizzaria's, shopping malls, supermarkets, and the like? Just going about their daily lives, and blown up.
After all, the rest of the world is so willing to support Israel if it withdraws, just like happened when Israel unilaterally withdrew from where was it, Golan? Where the whole world said, via the UN, "we'd love to see you guys back off please, and we'll help police that area so you'll get peace if you do so" and now there are daily Hizbollah attacks.
Definitely, Chaz. You're right on the money with that Genocide comment. After all, the rest of the world has done a really good job at restraining the Arab world when it's attacked Israel in the past, and has done a good job in the last 18 months in forcing Arafat and his Tanzim-Fatah-Al Aqsa brigades to stop blowing themselves up in random areas filled with civilians. They were good at getting Arafat to keep his pledges of Oslo, and they were just as good at getting Israel to get rid of the settlements.
Explain your logic, if you don't mind, that when a country is attacked daily, it shouldn't defend itself. Because the attackers themselves blow themselves up? So did Kamikaze pilots. Because they're an occupied people who were offered %99 of what they wanted and then their unelected leader walked away from the table? Because we have decided as a collective world that suicide bombings and terrorism should be rewarded?
The Saudi's and Iraqi's have. And frankly, isn't that part of the point here? That if the Palestinians acheive their ends through relentless and unending suicide bombings, what stops them from using the technique on the next group? Or what stops the next group from doing it again?
If you're pushing a political agenda by blowing up civilians who have nothing to do with politics outside of their mere lives, you must be stopped at all costs. Did we learn nothing on September 11th?
To show restraint in the face of terrorism and then reward terrorists by acceding to their demands is the height of folly. But hey, Chaz, I'm sure you live in Israel or down in Battery Park, and you see this stuff happen regularly, and have lost friends and loved ones to terrorism and believe that the best way to get it to stop is to give in to it.
posted by swerdloff at 1:04 PM on April 13, 2002
You must live in Israel.
After all, I mean, what's 500-ish Israeli's blown up at discoteques, pizzaria's, shopping malls, supermarkets, and the like? Just going about their daily lives, and blown up.
After all, the rest of the world is so willing to support Israel if it withdraws, just like happened when Israel unilaterally withdrew from where was it, Golan? Where the whole world said, via the UN, "we'd love to see you guys back off please, and we'll help police that area so you'll get peace if you do so" and now there are daily Hizbollah attacks.
Definitely, Chaz. You're right on the money with that Genocide comment. After all, the rest of the world has done a really good job at restraining the Arab world when it's attacked Israel in the past, and has done a good job in the last 18 months in forcing Arafat and his Tanzim-Fatah-Al Aqsa brigades to stop blowing themselves up in random areas filled with civilians. They were good at getting Arafat to keep his pledges of Oslo, and they were just as good at getting Israel to get rid of the settlements.
Explain your logic, if you don't mind, that when a country is attacked daily, it shouldn't defend itself. Because the attackers themselves blow themselves up? So did Kamikaze pilots. Because they're an occupied people who were offered %99 of what they wanted and then their unelected leader walked away from the table? Because we have decided as a collective world that suicide bombings and terrorism should be rewarded?
The Saudi's and Iraqi's have. And frankly, isn't that part of the point here? That if the Palestinians acheive their ends through relentless and unending suicide bombings, what stops them from using the technique on the next group? Or what stops the next group from doing it again?
If you're pushing a political agenda by blowing up civilians who have nothing to do with politics outside of their mere lives, you must be stopped at all costs. Did we learn nothing on September 11th?
To show restraint in the face of terrorism and then reward terrorists by acceding to their demands is the height of folly. But hey, Chaz, I'm sure you live in Israel or down in Battery Park, and you see this stuff happen regularly, and have lost friends and loved ones to terrorism and believe that the best way to get it to stop is to give in to it.
posted by swerdloff at 1:04 PM on April 13, 2002
Swerdloff, in fact I did once live in Israel and I have had friends die or be injured because of terrorism and in the army. All of these deaths are senseless because we all know what the outcome will be-- a Palestinian state on something like the 1967 borders. Everyone in Israel save the extremists know this. And please stop repeating the myth that the Palestinians were offered 99% of what they wanted, it isn't true and you know it. What Arafat walked away from was a 'statelet' with 3 non-contiguous bantustans, no border with Jordan, and no water or air rights. The maps presented in Taba were generally accepted as a starting point for all sides.
The best thing Israel can do to defend itself is to cut loose the territories. How do terrorists get into the country? They walk, because there is no border, there is no fence, there is no nothing.
And if you think that every situation involving terrorism can be solved by force, you are simplistic, wrong, and muddled by your emotions.
posted by chaz at 1:35 PM on April 13, 2002
The best thing Israel can do to defend itself is to cut loose the territories. How do terrorists get into the country? They walk, because there is no border, there is no fence, there is no nothing.
And if you think that every situation involving terrorism can be solved by force, you are simplistic, wrong, and muddled by your emotions.
posted by chaz at 1:35 PM on April 13, 2002
they're an occupied people who were offered %99 of what they wanted and then their unelected leader walked away from the table?
The brilliant offer Israel never made:
The brilliant offer Israel never made:
"Barak's proposal for a Palestinian state based on 91% of the West Bank sounded substantive, but even the most cursory glance at the map revealed the bad faith inherent in it. It showed the West Bank carved into three chunks, surrounded by Israeli troops and settlers, without direct access to its own international borders.posted by ssdecontrol at 1:49 PM on April 13, 2002
The land-swap that was supposed to compensate the Palestinians for the loss of prime agricultural land in the West Bank merely added insult to injury. The only territory offered to Palestinian negotiators consisted of stretches of desert adjacent to the Gaza Strip that Israel currently uses for toxic waste dumping. The proposals on East Jerusalem were no better, permitting the Palestinians control of a few scattered fragments of what had been theirs before 1967."
Ugh, what a bunch of crap. I always thought "never again" meant that the world should never stand by and allow 'ethnic cleansing', not "nothing really bad will ever happen to the Jews again."
Oh, 14 Israeli solders got killed. oh boo hoo. how many thousands of Palestinians have died so far? And we are talking about combatants as well as non-combatents.
Yes, some ambulances have had explosives in 'em. Why don't they provide their own medical care for people the injure?
Such hypocritical garbage.
posted by delmoi at 4:00 PM on April 13, 2002
Oh, 14 Israeli solders got killed. oh boo hoo. how many thousands of Palestinians have died so far? And we are talking about combatants as well as non-combatents.
Yes, some ambulances have had explosives in 'em. Why don't they provide their own medical care for people the injure?
Such hypocritical garbage.
posted by delmoi at 4:00 PM on April 13, 2002
GO CHAZ
please kill all conversation on this topic from now on!!
posted by Settle at 4:36 PM on April 13, 2002
please kill all conversation on this topic from now on!!
posted by Settle at 4:36 PM on April 13, 2002
Thankfully, there is a United States. And thankfully, 50 years of Arab lies about wanting peace is seen for what it is. Arafat et Co.: please die, so Palestinian Arabs of good faith can live.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:02 PM on April 13, 2002
posted by ParisParamus at 5:02 PM on April 13, 2002
My apologies to everyone. I was hoping that the gloves wouldn't come off so quickly. What's wrong with people that they have to get so heated so quickly about this? Before you start yelling at me: I know all the reasons for the righteous anger; I sympathize, I really do. The point that I got out of the article was that, right or wrong, the Israelis have valid reasons for behaving the way they are. Right or wrong. Wouldn't you act the same way? Don't tell me you wouldn't.
Settle, no offense to you, but if you don't like the thread, and there was ample warning regarding the topic, then STAY THE FUCK OUT OF IT!!!
posted by ashbury at 6:17 PM on April 13, 2002
Settle, no offense to you, but if you don't like the thread, and there was ample warning regarding the topic, then STAY THE FUCK OUT OF IT!!!
posted by ashbury at 6:17 PM on April 13, 2002
The point that I got out of the article was that, right or wrong, the Israelis have valid reasons for behaving the way they are.
And the Palestinians have no reason at all to behave the way they are, eh? Is that what you're saying?
posted by five fresh fish at 6:49 PM on April 13, 2002
And the Palestinians have no reason at all to behave the way they are, eh? Is that what you're saying?
posted by five fresh fish at 6:49 PM on April 13, 2002
The point that I got out of the article was that, right or wrong, the Israelis have valid reasons for behaving the way they are.
And the Palestinians have no reason at all to behave the way they are, eh? Is that what you're saying?
posted by five fresh fish at 6:49 PM on April 13, 2002
And the Palestinians have no reason at all to behave the way they are, eh? Is that what you're saying?
posted by five fresh fish at 6:49 PM on April 13, 2002
As a matter of fact, five fresh fish, I had wanted to say in my last comment that the Palestinians also have valid reasons for their actions. I changed my mind because I didn't want to fan the flames any higher. FWIW, before posting the link I even spent some time looking for a similar article with a Palestinian point of view, but came up empty. So, in answer to your question, no, that is not what I'm saying.
posted by ashbury at 7:13 PM on April 13, 2002
posted by ashbury at 7:13 PM on April 13, 2002
The Palestinians' failure to blame any country other than Israel calls their credibility and sincerity into question. Yes, the situation is an appaling mess; no it's not primarily Israel's doing.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:26 PM on April 13, 2002
posted by ParisParamus at 7:26 PM on April 13, 2002
Yes, the situation is an appaling mess; no it's not primarily Israel's doing.
Certainly -- they couldn't commit such atrocities without my taxes paying for their helicopters and bombs.
National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee
posted by sudama at 10:11 PM on April 13, 2002
Certainly -- they couldn't commit such atrocities without my taxes paying for their helicopters and bombs.
National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee
posted by sudama at 10:11 PM on April 13, 2002
It's not your taxes sudama, it's mine, and I spend it willingly. What I do resent is giving another $30 million on top of the $80 or $85 million the Palestinians already getting from my taxes.
posted by semmi at 11:12 PM on April 13, 2002
posted by semmi at 11:12 PM on April 13, 2002
What I do resent is giving another $30 million on top of the $80 or $85 million the Palestinians already getting from my taxes.
damn straight. when Sharon is cutting off their water, food supply, electricity, access to medical care, ability to bury their dead... that $30 million for job training is a total waste of money -- I agree entirely.
talk about the 'fleecing of America' -- where is the liberal anti-semite media on this one?
I want my $30 million to go for more bulldozers!
posted by ssdecontrol at 12:25 AM on April 14, 2002
damn straight. when Sharon is cutting off their water, food supply, electricity, access to medical care, ability to bury their dead... that $30 million for job training is a total waste of money -- I agree entirely.
talk about the 'fleecing of America' -- where is the liberal anti-semite media on this one?
I want my $30 million to go for more bulldozers!
posted by ssdecontrol at 12:25 AM on April 14, 2002
You're full of hummus.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:20 AM on April 14, 2002
posted by ParisParamus at 6:20 AM on April 14, 2002
How about an additional $30 for a Radio Free Middle East.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:22 AM on April 14, 2002
posted by ParisParamus at 6:22 AM on April 14, 2002
How about we pay you to go away?
posted by five fresh fish at 9:56 AM on April 14, 2002
posted by five fresh fish at 9:56 AM on April 14, 2002
How about everyone stop with the double standards???
I've asked the question before, why is it ok for America to kill terrorists after being attacked by them, yet when Israel does the same we want them to stop. Talk about double standards and the most hypocritical bunch of people in the same place.
Try ignoring all the hatred and past wars that don't help the Israeli/Palestinian situation in the middle east, the fact's remain as stated over and over, Israel re-occupied land because of terrorist attacks. They are fighting terrorists just like America did and is still doing. The means might be different, but then again the west bank and gaza strip isn't Afganhistan.
posted by Zool at 10:07 PM on April 14, 2002
I've asked the question before, why is it ok for America to kill terrorists after being attacked by them, yet when Israel does the same we want them to stop. Talk about double standards and the most hypocritical bunch of people in the same place.
Try ignoring all the hatred and past wars that don't help the Israeli/Palestinian situation in the middle east, the fact's remain as stated over and over, Israel re-occupied land because of terrorist attacks. They are fighting terrorists just like America did and is still doing. The means might be different, but then again the west bank and gaza strip isn't Afganhistan.
posted by Zool at 10:07 PM on April 14, 2002
Israel is killing civilians. Women, children. Non-combatants. People born into poverty and oppression who want peace probably more than you'll ever know. America did the same thing in Afghanistan.
What's your point?
posted by sudama at 11:10 PM on April 14, 2002
What's your point?
posted by sudama at 11:10 PM on April 14, 2002
Sudama, at least with your last comment you are not being a hypocrite, that's my point.
Don't misunderstand me, i don't condone the killing of civilians whether it's Israeli's or Palestinians doing the killing, but when your citizen's are getting blown up by suicide bombers in acts of terrorism, what would you do, better yet, what would the counrty you live in do, wait i already know the answer to that one.
posted by Zool at 11:54 PM on April 14, 2002
Don't misunderstand me, i don't condone the killing of civilians whether it's Israeli's or Palestinians doing the killing, but when your citizen's are getting blown up by suicide bombers in acts of terrorism, what would you do, better yet, what would the counrty you live in do, wait i already know the answer to that one.
posted by Zool at 11:54 PM on April 14, 2002
Not all of us condone what's happened in Afganistan. But on a different note, when Jews say *never again* they mean ethnic cleansing, all ethnic cleansing. The anxiety I have had about Israel for a long time now is that Jews would be one day be the ones who forget. That in our victim mentality we would not only condone, but conduct the very behavior we most fear
posted by zia at 9:46 PM on April 15, 2002
posted by zia at 9:46 PM on April 15, 2002
Zia: certainly a concern, but there's no basis for it. Amongst the proofs: lots of non-Jews live in Israel in pretty good prosperity. On the other hand....
posted by ParisParamus at 9:49 PM on April 15, 2002
posted by ParisParamus at 9:49 PM on April 15, 2002
And, Paris, those non-Jews are rarely, if ever, involved in terrorism. Somone 1 mile away, related by blood, probably even cousins, and one is involved in terrorism, the other isn't. Kind of blows all the religious/ethnic explanations for terrorism away.
The difference is that one lives as a second-class citizen, which is tolerable, whereas the other lives under harsh foreign military rule, which is not.
posted by chaz at 10:25 PM on April 15, 2002
The difference is that one lives as a second-class citizen, which is tolerable, whereas the other lives under harsh foreign military rule, which is not.
posted by chaz at 10:25 PM on April 15, 2002
"when Jews say *never again* they mean ethnic cleansing, all ethnic cleansing. The anxiety I have had about Israel for a long time now is that Jews would be one day be the ones who forget. That in our victim mentality we would not only condone, but conduct the very behavior we most fear"
Zia: My understanding of "never again" is that Jews will never again become willing victims, will never allow themselves to justify even on religious or moral grounds to be victimized, to stand idle while Jews are being murdered.
posted by semmi at 8:54 PM on April 24, 2002
Zia: My understanding of "never again" is that Jews will never again become willing victims, will never allow themselves to justify even on religious or moral grounds to be victimized, to stand idle while Jews are being murdered.
posted by semmi at 8:54 PM on April 24, 2002
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posted by Settle at 12:04 PM on April 13, 2002