Pardon moi?
July 3, 2007 8:14 PM Subscribe
BUSH PARDONS CABINET MEMBER!
On Christmas Eve, 1992, George H. W. Bush pardoned former Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, former asst. Secretary of State (and current asst. National Security Adviser) Elliott Abrams, former NSA Robert McFarlane, and three former CIA officers for their roles in the Iran-Contra scandal. Weinberger was facing trial that January.
This post was deleted for the following reason: there is a pardoning thread open already. -- jessamyn
(Why is the first URL named "pardonsex5"?)
posted by growabrain at 8:32 PM on July 3, 2007
posted by growabrain at 8:32 PM on July 3, 2007
Every time I hear the name "Weinberger" I think of Bloom County. He was a punchline there more than once.
Oh, and this post is a total axe-grinding, piece of shit.
posted by Cyrano at 8:35 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Oh, and this post is a total axe-grinding, piece of shit.
posted by Cyrano at 8:35 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Pardonsex 5 would be a great name for a band...
posted by darkstar at 8:43 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by darkstar at 8:43 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
sorta OT...
Judge Reggie Walton issued a new order today regarding the probation Libby is still supposed to be subject to under Bush's commutation grant.
link to court order (pdf)
be sure to check out the footnote (endnote).
posted by pruner at 8:45 PM on July 3, 2007
Judge Reggie Walton issued a new order today regarding the probation Libby is still supposed to be subject to under Bush's commutation grant.
link to court order (pdf)
be sure to check out the footnote (endnote).
posted by pruner at 8:45 PM on July 3, 2007
Do you know that it was one of the surface-to-air missles that Bush sold to Iran that was used to take down TWA 800? Seriously.
posted by stet at 8:49 PM on July 3, 2007
posted by stet at 8:49 PM on July 3, 2007
Oh, and this post is a total axe-grinding, piece of shit.
how so? why is that tone warranted, in your view?
posted by Hat Maui at 8:56 PM on July 3, 2007
how so? why is that tone warranted, in your view?
posted by Hat Maui at 8:56 PM on July 3, 2007
I dunno. Axe grinding maybe. Piling on maybe. Pertinent maybe. GYOFB maybe. Do we start posting the pardon of Nixon, Clinton's pardons, the time I said "Pardon me" when I burped at Chuck E. Cheese?
Not flagging. But moving on.
posted by The Deej at 9:06 PM on July 3, 2007
Not flagging. But moving on.
posted by The Deej at 9:06 PM on July 3, 2007
He was a punchline there more than once.
The wind doth taste of bittersweet
like jasper wine and sugar
I bet it's blown through others' feet,
like those of Caspar Weinberger.
posted by eriko at 9:07 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
The wind doth taste of bittersweet
like jasper wine and sugar
I bet it's blown through others' feet,
like those of Caspar Weinberger.
posted by eriko at 9:07 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
I really think the constitution should be amended to limit pardon power in specific cases, such as this one.
I like the idea of presidents and governors being able to pardon people when the legal system fails, or whatever, but I think a simple ban on pardons for any members of the executive branch who commit crimes while "on the job" and those that work "closely" with the president. Anyone who regularly interacts with the president, etc.
posted by delmoi at 9:14 PM on July 3, 2007
I like the idea of presidents and governors being able to pardon people when the legal system fails, or whatever, but I think a simple ban on pardons for any members of the executive branch who commit crimes while "on the job" and those that work "closely" with the president. Anyone who regularly interacts with the president, etc.
posted by delmoi at 9:14 PM on July 3, 2007
Today's a different kind of flag day. I liked this post; thanks, Hat Maui.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:19 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:19 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Breaking news: The Bush family is a cesspool of traitorous scum who feed on the flesh of innocents.
posted by 2sheets at 10:35 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by 2sheets at 10:35 PM on July 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
what delmoi said -- the issue in both the weinberger pardon and the libby commutation is the inherent conflict of interest. a lot of dunderpated "clinton did it too!" forum posters bring up marc rich, and as sleazy as that pardon might have been (i don't dispute that it was), marc rich was not a member of clinton's cabinet!
that's a signifant distinction. of course the president should have pardon power -- no one is disputing that. but tell me how that pardon power as applied to the executive branch in general and the cabinet in particular doesn't create a license for a president to abuse power via pardonable underlings and never be called to account for any misdeeds?
what's it going to take for the entire country to see the danger here for what it is? it's far more frightening in its implications than terrorists are.
posted by Hat Maui at 10:45 PM on July 3, 2007
that's a signifant distinction. of course the president should have pardon power -- no one is disputing that. but tell me how that pardon power as applied to the executive branch in general and the cabinet in particular doesn't create a license for a president to abuse power via pardonable underlings and never be called to account for any misdeeds?
what's it going to take for the entire country to see the danger here for what it is? it's far more frightening in its implications than terrorists are.
posted by Hat Maui at 10:45 PM on July 3, 2007
You know, I was thinking to myself earlier, "Man, I've forgotten what a horrible nightmare the Reagan years were, what a thoroughly corrupt and criminal administration Reagan and Bush presided over, and how many crimes they themselves were guilty of." So thanks for the reminder.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:48 PM on July 3, 2007
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:48 PM on July 3, 2007
marc rich was not a member of clinton's cabinet!: no but Scooter was /is his lawyer.
posted by hortense at 11:29 PM on July 3, 2007
posted by hortense at 11:29 PM on July 3, 2007
Just curious... can the President pardon himself?
Too lazy to search findlaw...
posted by vsync at 11:54 PM on July 3, 2007
Too lazy to search findlaw...
posted by vsync at 11:54 PM on July 3, 2007
This axe will never be ground enough for my tastes. Thanx for the post and a happy 4th to you, Hat Maui.
posted by maryh at 12:03 AM on July 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by maryh at 12:03 AM on July 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
vsync: Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution states in part, "and he [the president] shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."
posted by Emo Squid at 12:04 AM on July 4, 2007
posted by Emo Squid at 12:04 AM on July 4, 2007
delmoi said, I really think the constitution should be amended to limit pardon power in specific cases, such as this one.
Seth Gordon, writing at Making Light, had the same idea, and ran with it:
Proposed Constitutional amendment:
Section 1. The President shall not, without the consent of Congress, grant a pardon or reprieve for any felony which was committed while the felon was an employee of the executive branch.
Section 2. The President shall not, without the consent of Congress, grant a pardon or reprieve for any felony in which the felon was an accomplice, accessory, or co-conspirator with a felon described in Section 1.
Section 3. The President shall not, without the consent of Congress, grant a pardon or reprieve for the felony of obstruction of justice, when such a felony impedes the investigation of a crime described in Section 1.
IANAL, of course, but it sounds pretty good to me. Thoughts?
posted by chuq at 12:17 AM on July 4, 2007
Seth Gordon, writing at Making Light, had the same idea, and ran with it:
Proposed Constitutional amendment:
Section 1. The President shall not, without the consent of Congress, grant a pardon or reprieve for any felony which was committed while the felon was an employee of the executive branch.
Section 2. The President shall not, without the consent of Congress, grant a pardon or reprieve for any felony in which the felon was an accomplice, accessory, or co-conspirator with a felon described in Section 1.
Section 3. The President shall not, without the consent of Congress, grant a pardon or reprieve for the felony of obstruction of justice, when such a felony impedes the investigation of a crime described in Section 1.
IANAL, of course, but it sounds pretty good to me. Thoughts?
posted by chuq at 12:17 AM on July 4, 2007
Is this still here? I thought for sure Matt would have deleted with extreme prejudice by now. If he keeps allowing this this kind of post, posted by this kind of user... I don't have a good feeling about the future of MeFi.
posted by The Deej at 12:18 AM on July 4, 2007
posted by The Deej at 12:18 AM on July 4, 2007
what kind of post is this? what kind of user am i? who the fuck are you?
posted by Hat Maui at 1:06 AM on July 4, 2007
posted by Hat Maui at 1:06 AM on July 4, 2007
It's that kind of post by that kind of user.
Who am I? Oh shit, we already went over this!
posted by The Deej at 1:19 AM on July 4, 2007
Who am I? Oh shit, we already went over this!
posted by The Deej at 1:19 AM on July 4, 2007
Not flagging. But moving on.
posted by The Deej at 9:06 PM on July 3
So...was that just a lie?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 1:26 AM on July 4, 2007
posted by The Deej at 9:06 PM on July 3
So...was that just a lie?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 1:26 AM on July 4, 2007
Cyrano writes "Oh, and this post is a total axe-grinding, piece of shit."
Ah sure do agrees! It's dah Fourth o' July!
Today's is for hangin' up mah grand ol' flag, stuffin' mah face wit' hotdogs that never saw an FDA inspector, drinkin' watery beer, an' for tellin all them Europeeee-on surrender monkeys dat I'm proud to be an AMERICAN! USA is NUMBER-ONE, motherfuckas!!!!11eleven!!
Independence Day is for a Bar-beee-que, not for thinking about the ideals on which this nation was founded, much less for pointing out how we've allowed those ideals to be undermined by kleptocratic oligarchs and our own laziness.
Can't you respect that Cyrano and I want to stuff our faces and get drunk rather than have think? And that makes us more American than trouble-makin' spoilsports like Hat Maui!
AMERICA IS NUMBER #1 MOTHERFUCKAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by orthogonality at 4:17 AM on July 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
Ah sure do agrees! It's dah Fourth o' July!
Today's is for hangin' up mah grand ol' flag, stuffin' mah face wit' hotdogs that never saw an FDA inspector, drinkin' watery beer, an' for tellin all them Europeeee-on surrender monkeys dat I'm proud to be an AMERICAN! USA is NUMBER-ONE, motherfuckas!!!!11eleven!!
Independence Day is for a Bar-beee-que, not for thinking about the ideals on which this nation was founded, much less for pointing out how we've allowed those ideals to be undermined by kleptocratic oligarchs and our own laziness.
Can't you respect that Cyrano and I want to stuff our faces and get drunk rather than have think? And that makes us more American than trouble-makin' spoilsports like Hat Maui!
AMERICA IS NUMBER #1 MOTHERFUCKAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by orthogonality at 4:17 AM on July 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
The use of the king-like pardon has a serious consequence. If a president pardons a person for crimes done in behalf of the president's use of his office, then the message is clear: do the crime and I will make sure you do not do the time.
posted by Postroad at 5:15 AM on July 4, 2007
posted by Postroad at 5:15 AM on July 4, 2007
pope guilty writes:
"Man, I've forgotten what a horrible nightmare the Reagan years were, what a thoroughly corrupt and criminal administration Reagan and Bush presided over, and how many crimes they themselves were guilty of." So thanks for the reminder.
The fact that these people weren't hunted down and made to pay for their crimes while in office haunts me everyday because it is the fact that they all walked away unstained that is the reason why they have all come back to commit even higher crimes in office with impunity. That is why I don't want to hear from anyone that impeachment will do no good because Bush will be out of office before they can convict. Those who take office in the years ahead must see this Bush administration as an example of the consequences of acting above the law. They all must be prosecuted - down to the lowliest intern, if we are to restore our democracy. I firmly believe that if the criminals of the Nixon, Reagan and Bush years were all prosecuted to the full extent of the law for their crimes we wouldn't have the criminals we have now in office. Every administration that walks away clean only emboldens the next to go further.
posted by any major dude at 5:39 AM on July 4, 2007
"Man, I've forgotten what a horrible nightmare the Reagan years were, what a thoroughly corrupt and criminal administration Reagan and Bush presided over, and how many crimes they themselves were guilty of." So thanks for the reminder.
The fact that these people weren't hunted down and made to pay for their crimes while in office haunts me everyday because it is the fact that they all walked away unstained that is the reason why they have all come back to commit even higher crimes in office with impunity. That is why I don't want to hear from anyone that impeachment will do no good because Bush will be out of office before they can convict. Those who take office in the years ahead must see this Bush administration as an example of the consequences of acting above the law. They all must be prosecuted - down to the lowliest intern, if we are to restore our democracy. I firmly believe that if the criminals of the Nixon, Reagan and Bush years were all prosecuted to the full extent of the law for their crimes we wouldn't have the criminals we have now in office. Every administration that walks away clean only emboldens the next to go further.
posted by any major dude at 5:39 AM on July 4, 2007
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
don't miss this money quote from then-president-elect Bill Clinton: "(I am concerned) by any action which sends a signal that, if you work for the government, you're above the law, or that not telling the truth to Congress under oath is somehow less serious than not telling the truth to some other body under oath."
truly, "legacy" in this family doesn't merely apply to being president, college & social club admission, and attacking Iraq, but also to pardoning styles.
posted by Hat Maui at 8:15 PM on July 3, 2007