The Most Popular Policy Idea in Washington
January 31, 2022 12:12 AM Subscribe
Congress May Be On the Verge of Fixing the Electoral Count Act - "Experts and politicians agree: The measure is in desperate need of reform, in order to avoid a repeat of 2020 in 2024."[1,2,3] (previously)
-Electoral act reform picks up growing bipartisan support[4,5,6]
-The Crucial Voting Rights Bill That Congress Can Actually Pass[7,8,9]
What Congress's new election reform idea leaves out - "Improving the Electoral Count Act isn't enough to protect voting rights and stop election subversion."
also btw...
-Pennsylvania court strikes down state's mail-in voting law
-Georgia county purges Democrats from election board and cancels Sunday voting
-Electoral act reform picks up growing bipartisan support[4,5,6]
-The Crucial Voting Rights Bill That Congress Can Actually Pass[7,8,9]
What Congress's new election reform idea leaves out - "Improving the Electoral Count Act isn't enough to protect voting rights and stop election subversion."
also btw...
-Pennsylvania court strikes down state's mail-in voting law
-Georgia county purges Democrats from election board and cancels Sunday voting
Proposed reformed Electoral Count Act, sane edition:
1. The Electoral College is abolished. All electoral processes formerly involving the Electoral College will be replaced by processes where the same citizens elect the same final candidates directly.
posted by flabdablet at 1:00 AM on January 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
1. The Electoral College is abolished. All electoral processes formerly involving the Electoral College will be replaced by processes where the same citizens elect the same final candidates directly.
posted by flabdablet at 1:00 AM on January 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
While they're at it: The Bill That Congress Might Be Embarrassed Enough to Pass
posted by chavenet at 3:13 AM on January 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 3:13 AM on January 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
Friendly reminder that replacing the Electoral College requires a constitutional amendment, which has to pass our gridlocked Congress and then two-thirds of state legislatures.
There is the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. But that would presumably require some states to “throw” their electoral votes to the national winner instead of the local winner. I had cautious optimism about the NPVIC when I first heard about it a few years ago. But given that appointing counterfeit electors was apparently a Trump strategy to get the 2020 election decided by the House, I don’t think the NPVIC is fascist-proof.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 3:20 AM on January 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
There is the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. But that would presumably require some states to “throw” their electoral votes to the national winner instead of the local winner. I had cautious optimism about the NPVIC when I first heard about it a few years ago. But given that appointing counterfeit electors was apparently a Trump strategy to get the 2020 election decided by the House, I don’t think the NPVIC is fascist-proof.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 3:20 AM on January 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
The electoral college works precisely as it was intended: it helps moderate the ability of dense urban center votes to completely overwhelm rural votes at the federal level.
The bigger issue is that we have "federalized" so much of our legislation that every election cycle becomes a battle over "who controls the big cannon of government", which makes every election cycle appear to be a life or death situation.
This is the reason for the 10th Amendment and the concept of Federalism: the vast majority of power should be vested in the states and local communities to make decisions that work best for those directly impacted by the legislation, and if the citizens of those states don't like the laws, they can change them or move to a state that aligns more closely with their beliefs.
It's much easier to hold local politicians accountable for their legislation than federal legislators or federal bureaucracies.
posted by tgrundke at 4:07 AM on January 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
The bigger issue is that we have "federalized" so much of our legislation that every election cycle becomes a battle over "who controls the big cannon of government", which makes every election cycle appear to be a life or death situation.
This is the reason for the 10th Amendment and the concept of Federalism: the vast majority of power should be vested in the states and local communities to make decisions that work best for those directly impacted by the legislation, and if the citizens of those states don't like the laws, they can change them or move to a state that aligns more closely with their beliefs.
It's much easier to hold local politicians accountable for their legislation than federal legislators or federal bureaucracies.
posted by tgrundke at 4:07 AM on January 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
The electoral college works precisely as it was intended: it helps moderate the ability of dense urban center votes to completely overwhelm rural votes at the federal level.
It wasn't so much about population density as it was voter population density, e.g. white landowning men. The South had a higher population of slaves. Also, both Jefferson and Madison argued that the popular vote was a bad idea because the public is not informed enough and too easily misled.
There were arguments for states getting to choose (Hamilton didn't like it), and for Congress getting to choose (but that would really put all three branches under Congress).
What we got was a compromise that isn't very good either.
posted by Foosnark at 4:33 AM on January 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
It wasn't so much about population density as it was voter population density, e.g. white landowning men. The South had a higher population of slaves. Also, both Jefferson and Madison argued that the popular vote was a bad idea because the public is not informed enough and too easily misled.
There were arguments for states getting to choose (Hamilton didn't like it), and for Congress getting to choose (but that would really put all three branches under Congress).
What we got was a compromise that isn't very good either.
posted by Foosnark at 4:33 AM on January 31, 2022 [8 favorites]
> The electoral college works precisely as it was intended
By, like, the founding fathers? Who didn't anticipate the existence of political parties, and who explicitly said that electors should be free agents who get elected for their ability to make the correct choice, not for their political affiliation? Honestly, that is crazy on the face of it.
As is the idea that people always have the choiceof moving to a different state, for no better reason than the abstract advantage of slightly increased voting power. Yeah, I'm gonna sell my house, move my (proverbial) kids to a different school, find a new job (and fast), all because my vote for president will count 5e-9 rather than 3e-9. That is how people act in real life.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 4:39 AM on January 31, 2022 [34 favorites]
By, like, the founding fathers? Who didn't anticipate the existence of political parties, and who explicitly said that electors should be free agents who get elected for their ability to make the correct choice, not for their political affiliation? Honestly, that is crazy on the face of it.
As is the idea that people always have the choiceof moving to a different state, for no better reason than the abstract advantage of slightly increased voting power. Yeah, I'm gonna sell my house, move my (proverbial) kids to a different school, find a new job (and fast), all because my vote for president will count 5e-9 rather than 3e-9. That is how people act in real life.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 4:39 AM on January 31, 2022 [34 favorites]
The founders were rich white men and they created a governmental structure that suits rich white men.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:50 AM on January 31, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:50 AM on January 31, 2022 [14 favorites]
Is there anything under discussion that would fix the possibility that state legislatures or governors might send slates of electoral votes that don't match the popular vote in their state?
The only concrete item under discussion that I've seen so far is to make it tougher for Congress to throw out electoral votes from a state during the actual count. It's a decent gesture--but that's not nearly the only thing that could go wrong on the process.
posted by gimonca at 5:31 AM on January 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
The only concrete item under discussion that I've seen so far is to make it tougher for Congress to throw out electoral votes from a state during the actual count. It's a decent gesture--but that's not nearly the only thing that could go wrong on the process.
posted by gimonca at 5:31 AM on January 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
The founders were rich white men and they created a governmental structure that suits rich white men.
There's a strong anti-urban, anti-"mob"/mass concentrations of ordinary Americans bias baked into the Constitution, but the sources of that aren't equally distributed among its authors, and have more complex origins than just "suits rich white men".
posted by ryanshepard at 5:47 AM on January 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
There's a strong anti-urban, anti-"mob"/mass concentrations of ordinary Americans bias baked into the Constitution, but the sources of that aren't equally distributed among its authors, and have more complex origins than just "suits rich white men".
posted by ryanshepard at 5:47 AM on January 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
The electoral college works precisely as it was intended
Yes, it does!
it helps moderate the ability of dense urban center votes to completely overwhelm rural votes at the federal level
Hm, not quite it, but keep guessing!
posted by rorgy at 6:25 AM on January 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
Yes, it does!
it helps moderate the ability of dense urban center votes to completely overwhelm rural votes at the federal level
Hm, not quite it, but keep guessing!
posted by rorgy at 6:25 AM on January 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
This is the reason for the 10th Amendment and the concept of Federalism: the vast majority of power should be vested in the states and local communities to make decisions that work best for those directly impacted by the legislation, and if the citizens of those states don't like the laws, they can change them or move to a state that aligns more closely with their beliefs.
The disastrous US response to the COVID-19 pandemic is an obvious counter-argument to this proposal.
As is the fact that "local communities" are once again making "decisions" that disenfranchise minority voters.
It's useless to say "the citizens of those states don't like the laws, they can change them" when a minority party entrenches itself with voter suppression and gerrymandering to the point that they control the legislature even when they receive a minority of the vote. And people shouldn't have to "move to another state" to enjoy the basic Constitutional rights that "local communities" decided they shouldn't have.
posted by Gelatin at 6:30 AM on January 31, 2022 [32 favorites]
The disastrous US response to the COVID-19 pandemic is an obvious counter-argument to this proposal.
As is the fact that "local communities" are once again making "decisions" that disenfranchise minority voters.
It's useless to say "the citizens of those states don't like the laws, they can change them" when a minority party entrenches itself with voter suppression and gerrymandering to the point that they control the legislature even when they receive a minority of the vote. And people shouldn't have to "move to another state" to enjoy the basic Constitutional rights that "local communities" decided they shouldn't have.
posted by Gelatin at 6:30 AM on January 31, 2022 [32 favorites]
The thing that baffles me, as someone who grew up under the electoral college system and now lives in a different country, is how much say the states have in how federal elections are handled. From districting to voting rules and management, so many of these issues could be solved if the federal government had control over federal elections.
posted by thecjm at 6:55 AM on January 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 6:55 AM on January 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
When you think about it, it's really absurd that different laws apply in different parts of the country. I seem to remember hearing something about "one nation...indivisible." That's clearly not the case if I can step across an imaginary line and suddenly I'm governed by a whole new set of laws.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:01 AM on January 31, 2022
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:01 AM on January 31, 2022
If I'm understanding the subtext correctly, this idea has bipartisan support because the GOP recognizes that its ongoing efforts to capture and subvert state legislatures and governorships (with the obvious intention of coopting those states' EVs in the next election) are bad for democracy? So they're going to suddenly pivot and start championing the democratic process, after they've spent twenty years and billions of dollars building their entire federal electoral strategy on voter suppression in areas where demographics are shifting away from white men? And they're going to do this why? Because they're worried that the tiger whose tail they've been clutching since nominating Trump is suddenly going to turn and bite them?
I mean, if the Dems think they can get the votes, sure, go for it. But I don't think anyone's ever gotten rich by betting that the GOP can be shamed into doing the right thing.
posted by Mayor West at 7:04 AM on January 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean, if the Dems think they can get the votes, sure, go for it. But I don't think anyone's ever gotten rich by betting that the GOP can be shamed into doing the right thing.
posted by Mayor West at 7:04 AM on January 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Outhouses were all working as intended too but that doesn't mean indoor plumbing is a bad idea.
And usually when you see "rural votes" in something about US history you should mentally replace that with "slave holding votes" seeking to protect the institution of slavery.
So even if things are working as intended by the founders, they were bad intentions. Even the anti-slavery founders would have found the idea of women voting laughable.
I don't really care about what the founders intended. They made a minor improvement to go from rich white guys and a king to just rich white guys. Now we know better so we should do better.
posted by VTX at 7:09 AM on January 31, 2022 [28 favorites]
And usually when you see "rural votes" in something about US history you should mentally replace that with "slave holding votes" seeking to protect the institution of slavery.
So even if things are working as intended by the founders, they were bad intentions. Even the anti-slavery founders would have found the idea of women voting laughable.
I don't really care about what the founders intended. They made a minor improvement to go from rich white guys and a king to just rich white guys. Now we know better so we should do better.
posted by VTX at 7:09 AM on January 31, 2022 [28 favorites]
The Electoral College: Top 3 Pros and Cons
I seem to remember hearing something about "one nation...indivisible."
Post Civil-war Unionist stuff.
posted by BWA at 7:10 AM on January 31, 2022
I seem to remember hearing something about "one nation...indivisible."
Post Civil-war Unionist stuff.
posted by BWA at 7:10 AM on January 31, 2022
Friendly reminder that replacing the Electoral College requires a constitutional amendment, which has to pass our gridlocked Congress and then two-thirds of state legislatures.
An amendment requires 2/3rds of each House in Congress and 3/4ths of all states.
posted by jmauro at 7:24 AM on January 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
An amendment requires 2/3rds of each House in Congress and 3/4ths of all states.
posted by jmauro at 7:24 AM on January 31, 2022 [4 favorites]
There's a strong anti-urban, anti-"mob"/mass concentrations of ordinary Americans bias baked into the Constitution, but the sources of that aren't equally distributed among its authors, and have more complex origins than just "suits rich white men".
The biggest problem with the founding of America is that the 13 colonies hated each other only slightly less than they hated George III. People seem to forget that the first constitution of the United States failed absolutely because they tried a confederation and it turns out nobody wanted to be altruistic for the common good. Congress would say "we need money to fight the British" and the states came back with "we'd love to help but this seems like a you problem". Hell, Boston closed their port to the British and Connecticut said "lol more profit for us then!"
The constitution forces states to work together in areas of critical need determined by moments in history and then shrugs its shoulders with the rest. There's no proactivity, only dragging reactionaries kicking and screaming towards what's needed for the now. The fact that the US has lasted this long has been a minor miracle.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:26 AM on January 31, 2022 [12 favorites]
The biggest problem with the founding of America is that the 13 colonies hated each other only slightly less than they hated George III. People seem to forget that the first constitution of the United States failed absolutely because they tried a confederation and it turns out nobody wanted to be altruistic for the common good. Congress would say "we need money to fight the British" and the states came back with "we'd love to help but this seems like a you problem". Hell, Boston closed their port to the British and Connecticut said "lol more profit for us then!"
The constitution forces states to work together in areas of critical need determined by moments in history and then shrugs its shoulders with the rest. There's no proactivity, only dragging reactionaries kicking and screaming towards what's needed for the now. The fact that the US has lasted this long has been a minor miracle.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:26 AM on January 31, 2022 [12 favorites]
If I'm understanding the subtext correctly, this idea has bipartisan support because the GOP recognizes that its ongoing efforts to capture and subvert state legislatures and governorships (with the obvious intention of coopting those states' EVs in the next election) are bad for democracy?
This is likely a “Lucy with the football” sort of scenario. They’ll support until something looks like it’ll pass then pull the ball away at the last second.
posted by jmauro at 7:26 AM on January 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is likely a “Lucy with the football” sort of scenario. They’ll support until something looks like it’ll pass then pull the ball away at the last second.
posted by jmauro at 7:26 AM on January 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Hahaha, what brilliant villainy!
Of course Republicans support this. If you already put the fix in at the state level why leave a potential correction method in place at the federal level?
Now when five or ten red states give their EVs to Trump in 2024 despite his having lost, nobody will be left to gainsay them.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 7:27 AM on January 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
Of course Republicans support this. If you already put the fix in at the state level why leave a potential correction method in place at the federal level?
Now when five or ten red states give their EVs to Trump in 2024 despite his having lost, nobody will be left to gainsay them.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 7:27 AM on January 31, 2022 [6 favorites]
Pennsylvania, do better. We don't have early voting. It's now harder to vote by mail in a pandemic that is still clogging our hospitals. If you're not available to vote on a Tuesday in November, no vote. If you get sick, if your job or travel schedule changes before you have a chance to request a mail in ballot - too bad.
posted by Alison at 7:58 AM on January 31, 2022
posted by Alison at 7:58 AM on January 31, 2022
Of course Republicans support this. If you already put the fix in at the state level why leave a potential correction method in place at the federal level?
This is definitely a problem, and the filibuster needs to go to allow the For The People and John Lewis Voting Rights Acts to pass, but a principle the Republicans have known since Gingrich and still hasn't ever been adopted by the Democrats is the full court press.
Pass this act, and then the next, and then the next. Acting like reforming Electoral Vote counting is a "substitute" for voting rights legislation already cedes the rhetorical ground to those who would subvert the system.
Fix ALL the holes in the system.
posted by tclark at 8:03 AM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is definitely a problem, and the filibuster needs to go to allow the For The People and John Lewis Voting Rights Acts to pass, but a principle the Republicans have known since Gingrich and still hasn't ever been adopted by the Democrats is the full court press.
Pass this act, and then the next, and then the next. Acting like reforming Electoral Vote counting is a "substitute" for voting rights legislation already cedes the rhetorical ground to those who would subvert the system.
Fix ALL the holes in the system.
posted by tclark at 8:03 AM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
The fact that the US has lasted this long has been a minor miracle.
In my more cheerful, hopeful moods—"hope amidst perdition" rather than blithe optimism—I remember that our country started, not as the egalitarian utopia our high school history books pretend it was, but as something a couple of degrees less horseshit than the thing that, in retrospect, was so horseshit that we can't believe people ever lived like that before.
We started with horseshit and a flawed dream of something better.
And, despite the horseshit, every generation takes that flawed dream and looks around them and goes, "Look, this is clearly fucked, we need to do better." And the dream doesn't get realized, but we move another couple of degrees away from that place that, at the start, was conspicuously awful.
It doesn't give me hope that the world will be a wonderful place when I die, but it gives me hope that, despite this grody decade, the world will be better when I leave it than it was when I was born. Not because we'll win every fight or even most of the fights, but because the fights that are won do make a difference, even if it's less of a difference than anybody wanted.
I have no idea of how we'll dig ourselves out of this present hole, but it emboldens me that people are still digging. Even if it's also despair-inducing, in less cheerful moods, that the digging so often just leads deeper down.
posted by rorgy at 8:31 AM on January 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
In my more cheerful, hopeful moods—"hope amidst perdition" rather than blithe optimism—I remember that our country started, not as the egalitarian utopia our high school history books pretend it was, but as something a couple of degrees less horseshit than the thing that, in retrospect, was so horseshit that we can't believe people ever lived like that before.
We started with horseshit and a flawed dream of something better.
And, despite the horseshit, every generation takes that flawed dream and looks around them and goes, "Look, this is clearly fucked, we need to do better." And the dream doesn't get realized, but we move another couple of degrees away from that place that, at the start, was conspicuously awful.
It doesn't give me hope that the world will be a wonderful place when I die, but it gives me hope that, despite this grody decade, the world will be better when I leave it than it was when I was born. Not because we'll win every fight or even most of the fights, but because the fights that are won do make a difference, even if it's less of a difference than anybody wanted.
I have no idea of how we'll dig ourselves out of this present hole, but it emboldens me that people are still digging. Even if it's also despair-inducing, in less cheerful moods, that the digging so often just leads deeper down.
posted by rorgy at 8:31 AM on January 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
After the failure of the substantive voting-rights bills, this feels like making sure the Titanic's deck chairs are lined up nice and straight.
posted by adamrice at 8:37 AM on January 31, 2022
posted by adamrice at 8:37 AM on January 31, 2022
what rorgy said.. I'm not a US-American (but a neighbour, and you only have to observe all the Confederate and Trump flags in our fucking "Freedom" convoys of late to appreciate the impact of proximity).. and I appreciate the need to vent and drop the cynical zingers but at some point you either put your weight behind hope+action or you are part of the problem. What is the alternative?
posted by elkevelvet at 9:26 AM on January 31, 2022
posted by elkevelvet at 9:26 AM on January 31, 2022
the vast majority of power should be vested in the states and local communities to make decisions that work best for those directly impacted by the legislation
And make sure only some of those folks get to vote! Guess which ones?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:54 AM on January 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
And make sure only some of those folks get to vote! Guess which ones?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:54 AM on January 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
the vast majority of power should be vested in the states and local communities to make decisions that work best for those directly impacted by the legislation
I interface with local government on a regular basis. I'll take The Feds (even under another Trump like guy) any day of the week.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:19 AM on January 31, 2022
I interface with local government on a regular basis. I'll take The Feds (even under another Trump like guy) any day of the week.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:19 AM on January 31, 2022
The electoral college works precisely as it was intended:
Friendly reminder that "what the framers intended" is not a buffet that you get a pick from; it's a full prix-fixe meal and you don't get to skip courses.
If you think women should be able to vote, that means you don't support "what the framers intended." If you think slavery should be illegal, that means you don't support "what the framers intended."
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:58 AM on January 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
Friendly reminder that "what the framers intended" is not a buffet that you get a pick from; it's a full prix-fixe meal and you don't get to skip courses.
If you think women should be able to vote, that means you don't support "what the framers intended." If you think slavery should be illegal, that means you don't support "what the framers intended."
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:58 AM on January 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
Who didn't anticipate the existence of political parties
No I thought they were very concerned about the danger of, as they called them, "factions", which they saw as a danger that could become an existential threat. It's been a long time since school, though, maybe I misremember the weight that they gave to this.
posted by thelonius at 12:12 PM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
No I thought they were very concerned about the danger of, as they called them, "factions", which they saw as a danger that could become an existential threat. It's been a long time since school, though, maybe I misremember the weight that they gave to this.
posted by thelonius at 12:12 PM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Recent lawfare episode: On Electoral Count Act Reform
posted by mmascolino at 12:40 PM on January 31, 2022
posted by mmascolino at 12:40 PM on January 31, 2022
thelonius - I meant "anticipate" in the sense of "I don't anticipate getting hit by a bus tomorrow." It would be bad if I did, but I'm fairly confident that I can avoid it .
Now, having studied all the relevant Federalist papers, I must conclude that, some time around 1826, the constitution was hit by the Oscar Meyer Wienermobile.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 2:37 PM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Now, having studied all the relevant Federalist papers, I must conclude that, some time around 1826, the constitution was hit by the Oscar Meyer Wienermobile.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 2:37 PM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ironically, you-know-who is claiming that "Democrats and RINO Republicans like Wacky Susan Collins" attempting to repair the Electoral Count Act is somehow proof that he was correct about it all along, that Pence had all the authority he needed to simply say "f democracy, I decide" and that only Pence's lack of loyalty and will prevented that.
Which, in any sane world, would become a pretext for bipartisan enthusiasm to close that imagined loophole. However, I suspect that we still live here.
posted by delfin at 2:50 PM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Which, in any sane world, would become a pretext for bipartisan enthusiasm to close that imagined loophole. However, I suspect that we still live here.
posted by delfin at 2:50 PM on January 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
btw, the electoral college has nothing to do with balancing rural/urban voting power. more like
a) popular vote election was too democratic for the founders to stomach. they wanted a fire break from the people.
b) the 3/5 compromise - racist apportionment where slaves counted as 3/5 of a person for apportionment, yet couldn't vote. the electoral college was a sellout to the south to gain support for the new union.
posted by j_curiouser at 10:25 AM on February 1, 2022
a) popular vote election was too democratic for the founders to stomach. they wanted a fire break from the people.
b) the 3/5 compromise - racist apportionment where slaves counted as 3/5 of a person for apportionment, yet couldn't vote. the electoral college was a sellout to the south to gain support for the new union.
posted by j_curiouser at 10:25 AM on February 1, 2022
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Proposed reformed Electoral Account Act, Republican edition:
1. The Republicans always win.
2. If there is any question as to who won, refer to Rule #1.
posted by mmoncur at 12:26 AM on January 31, 2022 [5 favorites]