Welcome back, Frank
November 16, 2017 11:25 AM Subscribe
The Punisher, Marvel’s avatar of gun violence and toxic masculinity, is hitting TV screens at possibly the worst ever time (just like every other time), to mixed reviews. With the shows focus on angry male white men the characters popularity with law enforcement officers and the military may be more troubling than ever.
Speaking of The Punisher, folks should check out Hell's Kitchen Movie Club, a monthly
posted by zamboni at 11:42 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
work of satirewhich asks the important question
What if Frank Castle and Bucky Barnes had a regular movie night?.
posted by zamboni at 11:42 AM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
In related news, Castle Frank station in Toronto got a makeover to promote the series.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:43 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:43 AM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Frank's fucked up. He's fascinating because he's fucked up, but the idea that people could not get that he's fucked up is a little frightening.
Hell's Kitchen Movie Club #2 has an essay that touches on that a bit.
posted by Artw at 11:45 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
Hell's Kitchen Movie Club #2 has an essay that touches on that a bit.
posted by Artw at 11:45 AM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
As a character, the Punisher has an ambivalent relationship to the military, as do many who have served. Though he loved his fellow warriors, he detests the immoral men who send grunts to foreign abattoirs and ignore them if they return. “In boot camp, we are constantly yelling ‘kill,’” says James Gomes, a Punisher fan who ran a security squad for the Marines in Iraq. He thinks blind patriotism — a quality that Frank lacks — is the bigger danger. “I think patriotic war movies brainwash young men to idolize war and killing ‘enemies/terrorists’ more than fictional vigilantes ever will. Military members are probably more violent and aggressive. I’d be surprised if data said otherwise. But I don’t think that has to do with the superhero genre. I blame the media selling and supporting war.”
I... don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment.
I think the larger problem people are worried about is the fact that every person has a different idea of who is "evil" in the world, and a lot of these fans may not be the kind who realize that blind patriotism is a bad thing or that it's not that foreigners are taking all your jobs. So it might be easy for someone who has all kinds of problems, perhaps many similar to the character of the Punisher, to make pretty irrational choices as to who is "evil" in the world, like pretty much every mass shooter.
So while, sure, he's probably right that the money spent by our government to promote war through media is probably a bigger influence overall, the idea that the fiction of The Punisher doesn't make any impact, or is just somehow less worse, seems a bit naive.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:49 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
I... don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment.
I think the larger problem people are worried about is the fact that every person has a different idea of who is "evil" in the world, and a lot of these fans may not be the kind who realize that blind patriotism is a bad thing or that it's not that foreigners are taking all your jobs. So it might be easy for someone who has all kinds of problems, perhaps many similar to the character of the Punisher, to make pretty irrational choices as to who is "evil" in the world, like pretty much every mass shooter.
So while, sure, he's probably right that the money spent by our government to promote war through media is probably a bigger influence overall, the idea that the fiction of The Punisher doesn't make any impact, or is just somehow less worse, seems a bit naive.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:49 AM on November 16, 2017 [8 favorites]
It's nice to see that Hollywood in the trump era is still trying to make a buck pushing product that reinforces the type of Nixon-era right wing propaganda intrinsic to the Southern Strategy tactics of Lee Atwater and Roger Ailes.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:55 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:55 AM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
My favorite punisher moment is when he got beat up by Princess Powerful.
That's what fascist whackos should always be: punchlines for 11 year old girls.
posted by signal at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2017 [51 favorites]
That's what fascist whackos should always be: punchlines for 11 year old girls.
posted by signal at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2017 [51 favorites]
Frank's fucked up. He's fascinating because he's fucked up, but the idea that people could not get that he's fucked up is a little frightening.
See also: Rorschach fans.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:08 PM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]
I initially thought that "Rorschach Fans" would refer to people who see whatever they want in characters, but that works too!
posted by selfnoise at 12:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 12:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
Someone on reddit pointed out that we might be seeing the end of the glorification of the anti-hero, especially the white male anti-hero driven by rage and manpain. These days Wonder Woman and Captain America are a lot more popular than their darker counterparts.
It's interesting.
posted by asteria at 12:23 PM on November 16, 2017 [42 favorites]
It's interesting.
posted by asteria at 12:23 PM on November 16, 2017 [42 favorites]
My favorite punisher moment is when he got beat up by Princess Powerful.
a/k/a Molly Hayes, a member of the previously discussed Runaways; might be of interest for anyone who's looking to get their Marvel TV fix without it including an angry automatic-rifle-toting white dude, and is okay with waiting 5 more days.
posted by mstokes650 at 12:23 PM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]
a/k/a Molly Hayes, a member of the previously discussed Runaways; might be of interest for anyone who's looking to get their Marvel TV fix without it including an angry automatic-rifle-toting white dude, and is okay with waiting 5 more days.
posted by mstokes650 at 12:23 PM on November 16, 2017 [13 favorites]
Well, Bruce Willis is in a new Death Wish movie, so we get that to look forward to, too.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:24 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:24 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Nerdist has these 7 Absurd Punisher Moments We Hope Make it Into the TV Series.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
I have always loved Frank, but he has not always been well-written. He's not always interpreted well by readers, either. And to be blunt, as a writer, I have run into a lot of readers who see what they want to see in what I (or others) write, and ignore the rest.
Nuance is hard for a lot of people, creators and consumers alike.
The Frank we saw in Daredevil S2 is the best Frank we've ever seen. This was a dude whose raw pain reached out and hurt everyone, friend and foe alike, and especially himself. Unlike the frequent portrayals of Frank in the comics, where writers often chose to portray him as someone who bottled up his feelings, the Frank of DD S2 opened them up and said, "Look, motherfucker, this shit HURTS! Look here, you've got hurting feelings too!" That meant far more than the guns and the punching.
For what it's worth: Frank originally exists within the context of comics where he creates far more of a contrast. In the comics, Frank killing people is a big deal and a serious difference from the others who wear costumes. In the MCU, it's...well, it's kinda different from the start when Captain America's favorite move is to throw his enemies from a fatal height.
I'm looking forward to this series. It could turn out bad. DD S2, the shift of antagonists to a government/military conspiracy, and the continued presence of Deborah Ann Woll gives me a lot of hope.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]
Nuance is hard for a lot of people, creators and consumers alike.
The Frank we saw in Daredevil S2 is the best Frank we've ever seen. This was a dude whose raw pain reached out and hurt everyone, friend and foe alike, and especially himself. Unlike the frequent portrayals of Frank in the comics, where writers often chose to portray him as someone who bottled up his feelings, the Frank of DD S2 opened them up and said, "Look, motherfucker, this shit HURTS! Look here, you've got hurting feelings too!" That meant far more than the guns and the punching.
For what it's worth: Frank originally exists within the context of comics where he creates far more of a contrast. In the comics, Frank killing people is a big deal and a serious difference from the others who wear costumes. In the MCU, it's...well, it's kinda different from the start when Captain America's favorite move is to throw his enemies from a fatal height.
I'm looking forward to this series. It could turn out bad. DD S2, the shift of antagonists to a government/military conspiracy, and the continued presence of Deborah Ann Woll gives me a lot of hope.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]
it's impossible to make an anti-war film a comic book that satires masculinity
posted by idiopath at 12:34 PM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 12:34 PM on November 16, 2017 [21 favorites]
Let's call that "Liefeld's Corollary".
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:38 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:38 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
I'm not much of a Punisher fan at the best of time, but -- and this is faint praise indeed -- he was the most interesting part of DD Season 2.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 12:40 PM on November 16, 2017
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 12:40 PM on November 16, 2017
The Pluto Gangsta: "Let's call that "Liefeld's Corollary"."
Liefeld always felt much too busy satirizing himself to focus on anything else, IMO.
That and pouches.
And tiny feet.
posted by signal at 12:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Liefeld always felt much too busy satirizing himself to focus on anything else, IMO.
That and pouches.
And tiny feet.
posted by signal at 12:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
and the non-euclidean rib cages
posted by idiopath at 12:43 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 12:43 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
And things sticking out the top of their shoulders. Guns, swords, ... things.
posted by P.o.B. at 12:45 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by P.o.B. at 12:45 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
The Nerdist has these 7 Absurd Punisher Moments We Hope Make it Into the TV Series.
Yeah. The Wolverine one is especially odd. The Punisher (I guess) blew off all his face skin but somehow didn't damage his eyes or his teeth, shot him in the crotch and then ran over him with a steamroller. After that posing in a speedo seems tame.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:46 PM on November 16, 2017
Yeah. The Wolverine one is especially odd. The Punisher (I guess) blew off all his face skin but somehow didn't damage his eyes or his teeth, shot him in the crotch and then ran over him with a steamroller. After that posing in a speedo seems tame.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:46 PM on November 16, 2017
it's...well, it's kinda different from the start when Captain America's favorite move is to throw his enemies from a fatal height.
I mean, Daredevil's out there giving people the kind of cranial trauma that almost certainly leads to permanent disability or death, see this hilarious tumblr post:
But yes, the MCU has never had many of its heroes quibble overmuch about killing. The contrast between the other MCU superheroes and Frank Castle, I suppose, is that Avengers like Cap are killing in nominally state-sanctioned ways: in a war, or while working for the national security apparatus (SHIELD).
posted by yasaman at 12:48 PM on November 16, 2017 [36 favorites]
I mean, Daredevil's out there giving people the kind of cranial trauma that almost certainly leads to permanent disability or death, see this hilarious tumblr post:
i assume that, like, all of nyc is in on a conspiracy to hide the truth about blunt force head trauma from daredevil. like, to… protect his feelings??? the cops must be like “oh, yeah buddy, you really dinged those bad guys up! they’ll be feeling it for weeks! they’ll really think twice about Doing A Crime again.” when like, in reality, they are dead. they are dead people. they got busted in the head six times with a carbon fibre rod, and they died en route. i mean lets get real. daredevil showing up to the hospital with self-help books about starting over, “i’d like to drop these off for some of the bikers,” and the nurses all look at each other like, “uh… oh, honey, they were transferred to metro… north…. yeah, insurance thing. we’ll hold onto those for you.” they are all dead matt they’re dead. church is cool but maybe you should spend some more time on the Medical Side of wikipediaThis is one of those things that I think you have to roll with as a genre/style quirk of superhero movies: if someone's not being point blank shot or stabbed, the narrative wants you to think the hero's not straight up murdering them. We all know that being tossed off an overpass or a plane or whatever means they're dead, Jim, but we're just supposed to roll with a certain level of stylized violence and accept it as lol superheroes, I guess.
But yes, the MCU has never had many of its heroes quibble overmuch about killing. The contrast between the other MCU superheroes and Frank Castle, I suppose, is that Avengers like Cap are killing in nominally state-sanctioned ways: in a war, or while working for the national security apparatus (SHIELD).
posted by yasaman at 12:48 PM on November 16, 2017 [36 favorites]
The Nerdist has these 7 Absurd Punisher Moments We Hope Make it Into the TV Series.
I'm surprised this one didn't make it into the article. I, for one, am totally here for a Punisher / Riverdale crossover, if Netflix and the CW can work out the details.
posted by Roommate at 12:51 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'm surprised this one didn't make it into the article. I, for one, am totally here for a Punisher / Riverdale crossover, if Netflix and the CW can work out the details.
posted by Roommate at 12:51 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
The_Vegetables - They'll grow back.
posted by Artw at 12:53 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:53 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
and the non-euclidean rib cages
LIEFELD DID NOTHING WRONG!!!!
posted by MartinWisse at 1:02 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
LIEFELD DID NOTHING WRONG!!!!
posted by MartinWisse at 1:02 PM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
I clicked through yasaman's tumblr link and lololol that's someone I know from a total other fandom from yonks ago and you should read her fic because she's amazing.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Daredevil was too much of a murdering vigilante for me, so I didn't watch his season 2, and I for sure have never wanted anything to do with the Punisher at any point in my life. Watching Jessica Jones was such an amazing feeling for me, slipping into the warm loving embrace of this kind of media made by people like me, about people like me (women.) I was like, oh is this how men feel watching most of this stuff? So at home? So understood? So catered to? Netflix can shut the fuck up about Marvel until it it brings me more women-centric super-hero shit.
In short, where the fuck is Jessica Jones season 2?
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:15 PM on November 16, 2017 [29 favorites]
In short, where the fuck is Jessica Jones season 2?
posted by Squeak Attack at 1:15 PM on November 16, 2017 [29 favorites]
More Kelly Kanayama: Netflix's THE PUNISHER Fails to Say Something New About Violence
posted by Artw at 1:16 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:16 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
I was like, oh is this how men feel watching most of this stuff?
No, Jessica Jones was overwhelming better than almost all of it.
posted by The Gaffer at 1:17 PM on November 16, 2017 [20 favorites]
No, Jessica Jones was overwhelming better than almost all of it.
posted by The Gaffer at 1:17 PM on November 16, 2017 [20 favorites]
I used to love Punisher as a kid (I have PWJ #1) and as I grew up on discovered he's just a right-wing wankfest.
The way to solve our national drug problem is killing dealers, how's that working out for us in real life?
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
The way to solve our national drug problem is killing dealers, how's that working out for us in real life?
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm surprised this one didn't make it into the article.
Or the gun that shoots swords.
Really, the only Punisher adaptation I want to see right now is the storyline where Frank beats the shit out of Hatemonger and his Minuteman buddies. But that story hinged on Captain America being both dead and still recognised as a hero, so I don't know if it'd fit into the current MCU.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:19 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Or the gun that shoots swords.
Really, the only Punisher adaptation I want to see right now is the storyline where Frank beats the shit out of Hatemonger and his Minuteman buddies. But that story hinged on Captain America being both dead and still recognised as a hero, so I don't know if it'd fit into the current MCU.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:19 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Or the gun that shoots sword
or the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark they shoot bees at you
posted by entropicamericana at 1:22 PM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
or the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark they shoot bees at you
posted by entropicamericana at 1:22 PM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
Never understood the appeal of this particular Marvel villain, myself.
posted by kyrademon at 1:26 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 1:26 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
The whole Wolverine thing only scrapes the surface of how weird that storyline was. That one featured a little person who was the brother of a mobster abducting other mobsters and surgically altering them, starting by removing their legs with chainsaws, so they were also little people because his brother had been mean to him as a child. Ennis' first Punisher run was bizarre. (ohmigod i just remembered the Russian)
That said, I definitely agree with the "impossible to make an anti-war war movie/comic". Ennis' MAX run is probably the best run in the Punisher's history, and even with Ennis' work to show the toll it's taken on Frank, it still makes him a hero/badass for murdering thousands of people. Also, it just doesn't work in the context of a shared universe. Ennis just ignores the concept of a shared universe (except for pulling in Nick Fury), but any link strains credibility and Daredevil's insistence on shoehorning him in made that very apparent.
posted by protocoach at 1:47 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
That said, I definitely agree with the "impossible to make an anti-war war movie/comic". Ennis' MAX run is probably the best run in the Punisher's history, and even with Ennis' work to show the toll it's taken on Frank, it still makes him a hero/badass for murdering thousands of people. Also, it just doesn't work in the context of a shared universe. Ennis just ignores the concept of a shared universe (except for pulling in Nick Fury), but any link strains credibility and Daredevil's insistence on shoehorning him in made that very apparent.
posted by protocoach at 1:47 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
We've all watched War Zone, right?
Hell yes, and I think it was a better The Punisher movie than The Punisher (obviously) or The Punisher, but I think Thomas Jane is a better The Punisher, but at the same time I really like Ray Stevenson's The Punisher and simply consider all four (so far) The Punishers to be sequentially taking up the mantle of The Punisher in the The Punisherverse, same way James Bond works, because The Punisher is timeless.
Jon Bernthal's The Punisher was the only good thing about DDS02 and, to be honest, apart from Jessica Jones, is the only good thing about the Netflix shows full stop.
"The Punisher" is even one of those words that doesn't become meaningless and stupid if you write it or say it a bunch of times. Garth Ennis' The Punisher books are the only comics I own any more from start to finish (yeah, even the Knights, they are great, shut up). Pretty sure he has a new The Punisher series out as well? Haven't been to the comic store for a while.
So I am unbelievably hyped for this new The Punisher series and at the same time...I see a lot of promo images of boring-seeming people in suits standing around in offices, same way as all the other Netflix series. And it's smelling very "peak man-pain". And its timing is about as good as the Louis CK movie. But then if we had to wait a month between mass shootings in America so we could release a TV show about a mass shooter, it would never happen.
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:51 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Hell yes, and I think it was a better The Punisher movie than The Punisher (obviously) or The Punisher, but I think Thomas Jane is a better The Punisher, but at the same time I really like Ray Stevenson's The Punisher and simply consider all four (so far) The Punishers to be sequentially taking up the mantle of The Punisher in the The Punisherverse, same way James Bond works, because The Punisher is timeless.
Jon Bernthal's The Punisher was the only good thing about DDS02 and, to be honest, apart from Jessica Jones, is the only good thing about the Netflix shows full stop.
"The Punisher" is even one of those words that doesn't become meaningless and stupid if you write it or say it a bunch of times. Garth Ennis' The Punisher books are the only comics I own any more from start to finish (yeah, even the Knights, they are great, shut up). Pretty sure he has a new The Punisher series out as well? Haven't been to the comic store for a while.
So I am unbelievably hyped for this new The Punisher series and at the same time...I see a lot of promo images of boring-seeming people in suits standing around in offices, same way as all the other Netflix series. And it's smelling very "peak man-pain". And its timing is about as good as the Louis CK movie. But then if we had to wait a month between mass shootings in America so we could release a TV show about a mass shooter, it would never happen.
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:51 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
When I see a person sporting a Punisher t-shirt or vehicle sticker, I don't think, Hey! Another comic book fan! I think, They think the world would be a better place if right-thinking white men could just shoot anyone they thought needed killing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:51 PM on November 16, 2017 [40 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:51 PM on November 16, 2017 [40 favorites]
Serious question: have Marvel ever bothered to play with racial and sexual diversity in their Punisher books, same way they did with e.g. Spider-Man and Spider-Man's various incarnations?
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:55 PM on November 16, 2017
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:55 PM on November 16, 2017
Yes, in literally the stupidest, worst way imaginable.
posted by protocoach at 1:57 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by protocoach at 1:57 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
I'm a little hazy on if all the MAX titles are linked, or just the Fury and Punisher ones that Ennis did. Anyway, they seem to exist outside the main Marvel universe and, though I wouldn't disagree about the counterbalance argument, do just fine precisely because Ennis has no intention of writing Frank in any kind of lazy or forgiving way and just plunged into the depths with him. Fury MAX actually might even be more bleak and complex - I would thoroughly recommend War Gone By whichvis a mini-masterpiece that seems to have come and gone without fanfare.
I really need to get the new Punisher Platoon book because that looks to be similarly good.
posted by Artw at 1:59 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
I really need to get the new Punisher Platoon book because that looks to be similarly good.
posted by Artw at 1:59 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ew. (re: protocoach's link)
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:59 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:59 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's in the 7 things article too. I almost want to see the resulting explosions of that one did make it onto the screen.
I'm team Jet Ski myself, if we have to pick one.
posted by Artw at 2:02 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm team Jet Ski myself, if we have to pick one.
posted by Artw at 2:02 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
The problem with the Punisher has always been that he's got his own book.
With a character like Rorschach, where not only is he just part of an ensemble, but also it isn't an ongoing monthly comic but a graphic novel with a discrete beginning and end, you **STILL** get misaimed fandom but at least its a bit easier to show that he's a totally fucked up person who is decidedly not a hero or a person to emulate.
When you've got Frank Castle with his own monthly book doing his own thing as the hero of his own stories, well, you're going to wind up painting him as a good guy whether you start out wanting to or not.
To pick a different murderous Marvel vigilante, the 10 issue Foolkiller miniseries did an OK job of depicting Kurt Gerhardt as a fucked up person who started with a goal that was, if not good at least somewhat understandable and, thanks to the inherent fucked up nature of what he was doing, wound up being just another killer.
Yet, despite the efforts of the writers to show how fucked up and wrong it was my 15 year old self thought Kurt was mostly right and it took me a while, and some maturing, to realize how utterly fucked the whole thing was and how the Foolkiller was, when you got down to it, just a serial killer with delusions of grandeur.
And that's with just ten issues to tell a single story deliberately about how bad the situation and character are.
With a monthly book you wind up with Frank Castle the hero. It's unavoidable. You've got to get a new story out every 30 days, like clockwork. You've got to come up with something for Frank to be fighting, a reason for all the bullets and punching and killing, and it's got to be something at least semi-relatable and not just Frank killing at random. So you send him against whoever seems like a real bad guy who might possibly be argued to deserve it. Pedophiles, drug lords, pimps, the worst of the worst. And since Frank always has a new mission against a new very, very, bad person it's a lot easier to just show it as Frank doing a tough job that the namby pamby types don't have the balls [1] to do.
And that is fucked up. It turns Frank into a hero and he's not. Because Frank Castle is clearly a deeply damaged person who is making life worse for a lot of people despite whatever almost accidental good he manages.
As a character with some occasional one shot comics Frank might work better. As part of an ensemble where his deep mental problems and serial killing ways can be contrasted with healthier people Frank might work better.
Frank as a guest villain sort of character in Jessica Jones could work maybe.
Or maybe not. As Rorschach demonstrates, even the most blatantly bad "heroes" attracts a frightening sort of fandom.
Either way you cut it, Frank doesn't need his own book. Or his own TV series.
[1] Because this is a very patriarchal sort of fantasy it's definitely the balls, not the guts or spine.
posted by sotonohito at 2:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
With a character like Rorschach, where not only is he just part of an ensemble, but also it isn't an ongoing monthly comic but a graphic novel with a discrete beginning and end, you **STILL** get misaimed fandom but at least its a bit easier to show that he's a totally fucked up person who is decidedly not a hero or a person to emulate.
When you've got Frank Castle with his own monthly book doing his own thing as the hero of his own stories, well, you're going to wind up painting him as a good guy whether you start out wanting to or not.
To pick a different murderous Marvel vigilante, the 10 issue Foolkiller miniseries did an OK job of depicting Kurt Gerhardt as a fucked up person who started with a goal that was, if not good at least somewhat understandable and, thanks to the inherent fucked up nature of what he was doing, wound up being just another killer.
Yet, despite the efforts of the writers to show how fucked up and wrong it was my 15 year old self thought Kurt was mostly right and it took me a while, and some maturing, to realize how utterly fucked the whole thing was and how the Foolkiller was, when you got down to it, just a serial killer with delusions of grandeur.
And that's with just ten issues to tell a single story deliberately about how bad the situation and character are.
With a monthly book you wind up with Frank Castle the hero. It's unavoidable. You've got to get a new story out every 30 days, like clockwork. You've got to come up with something for Frank to be fighting, a reason for all the bullets and punching and killing, and it's got to be something at least semi-relatable and not just Frank killing at random. So you send him against whoever seems like a real bad guy who might possibly be argued to deserve it. Pedophiles, drug lords, pimps, the worst of the worst. And since Frank always has a new mission against a new very, very, bad person it's a lot easier to just show it as Frank doing a tough job that the namby pamby types don't have the balls [1] to do.
And that is fucked up. It turns Frank into a hero and he's not. Because Frank Castle is clearly a deeply damaged person who is making life worse for a lot of people despite whatever almost accidental good he manages.
As a character with some occasional one shot comics Frank might work better. As part of an ensemble where his deep mental problems and serial killing ways can be contrasted with healthier people Frank might work better.
Frank as a guest villain sort of character in Jessica Jones could work maybe.
Or maybe not. As Rorschach demonstrates, even the most blatantly bad "heroes" attracts a frightening sort of fandom.
Either way you cut it, Frank doesn't need his own book. Or his own TV series.
[1] Because this is a very patriarchal sort of fantasy it's definitely the balls, not the guts or spine.
posted by sotonohito at 2:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
turbid dahlia - you may be looking for Rachel Cole-Alves.
posted by Artw at 2:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 2:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Saying that The Punisher is one of the only good things about the Marvel Netflix shows and then saying that Luke Cage isn't any good is madness. Full stop.
posted by haileris23 at 2:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by haileris23 at 2:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [18 favorites]
I'm team Jet Ski myself, if we have to pick one.
I had that WJ. That was a great cover. I mean, completely stupid, but great.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:08 PM on November 16, 2017
I had that WJ. That was a great cover. I mean, completely stupid, but great.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:08 PM on November 16, 2017
Worth pointing out that no matter how utterly fucked the Ennis version of Punisher is, and how much you might think "aha! Cops wouldn't be into him if they knew about that!", the probability is very much that that very much is the version of the character that they've been reading.
posted by Artw at 2:09 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:09 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
Punisher is Rambo in comic book form, and just like the movies he morphed from being a Vietnam vet with a tortured soul to some vigilante guy who shoots guns a lot.
I would thoroughly recommend War Gone By which is a mini-masterpiece that seems to have come and gone without fanfare.
It is by far my favourite Punisher storyline. I think I picked it up after you suggested it on here before. Sooooo good.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:10 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
I would thoroughly recommend War Gone By which is a mini-masterpiece that seems to have come and gone without fanfare.
It is by far my favourite Punisher storyline. I think I picked it up after you suggested it on here before. Sooooo good.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:10 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think a Rorschach comic could be great (too bad there can never be one), because it would be a horror movie -- Batman filtered through Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer. But I know in my heart that even the most fucked up, psychopathic Rorschach would have unironic admirers. He could be living off dog food and putting clothespins on his dick and there would still be dudes who think he's a power fantasy.
The Punisher became a power fantasy after his initial introduction, and I personally like the power fantasy version of the Punisher, but it's a fantasy. Contrary to what everyone else always says, I think the Punisher only really works (as a hero) in the context of a fantasy universe. I don't mean a universe that includes Galactus, per se...I mean one where bad guys are unambiguously bad and guns solve all your problems. That's not real life, but it's an enjoyable story.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:15 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
The Punisher became a power fantasy after his initial introduction, and I personally like the power fantasy version of the Punisher, but it's a fantasy. Contrary to what everyone else always says, I think the Punisher only really works (as a hero) in the context of a fantasy universe. I don't mean a universe that includes Galactus, per se...I mean one where bad guys are unambiguously bad and guns solve all your problems. That's not real life, but it's an enjoyable story.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:15 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
I forced my way through two seasons of Daredevil and found it painful to watch.
The only bright spots for me were Deborah Ann Woll and her character Karen Page - as she transitioned from victim to detective to journalist and Vincent D'Onofrio, who seemed to have a fascinating take on Wilson Fisk. But the rest... just violence and fight scenes and anguished super-heroes.
So... not interested in the Punisher if it is anything like DD
posted by greenhornet at 2:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
The only bright spots for me were Deborah Ann Woll and her character Karen Page - as she transitioned from victim to detective to journalist and Vincent D'Onofrio, who seemed to have a fascinating take on Wilson Fisk. But the rest... just violence and fight scenes and anguished super-heroes.
So... not interested in the Punisher if it is anything like DD
posted by greenhornet at 2:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
I hated the Punisher long before hating the Punisher was cool.
posted by straight at 2:50 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by straight at 2:50 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
Just in time for spending Thanksgiving with questionable relatives!
posted by chainlinkspiral at 2:52 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by chainlinkspiral at 2:52 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Saying that The Punisher is one of the only good things about the Marvel Netflix shows and then saying that Luke Cage isn't any good is madness. Full stop.
I can think of another motivation.
posted by PMdixon at 2:58 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can think of another motivation.
posted by PMdixon at 2:58 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yes, in literally the stupidest, worst way imaginable.
Frank just wanted to be like Superman's Girl Friend.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Frank just wanted to be like Superman's Girl Friend.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
In related news, Castle Frank station in Toronto got a makeover to promote the series.
That's an extremely elaborate and comprehensive campaign for the 50 or 60 people who are going to see it over the next month.
posted by Flashman at 3:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
That's an extremely elaborate and comprehensive campaign for the 50 or 60 people who are going to see it over the next month.
posted by Flashman at 3:05 PM on November 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
I mean, Daredevil's out there giving people the kind of cranial trauma that almost certainly leads to permanent disability or death, see this hilarious tumblr post:
This was the thing that took me out of Captain America: Civil War (which is a movie I do enjoy). Steve tells Bucky not to kill any of the cops coming to kill him, even admonishing him after catching a guy Bucky has dropped over a railing. Then Steve hits all those fools in the head and chest with actual bricks. Those dudes are dead, homie. Don't kid yourself.
posted by Errant at 3:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
This was the thing that took me out of Captain America: Civil War (which is a movie I do enjoy). Steve tells Bucky not to kill any of the cops coming to kill him, even admonishing him after catching a guy Bucky has dropped over a railing. Then Steve hits all those fools in the head and chest with actual bricks. Those dudes are dead, homie. Don't kid yourself.
posted by Errant at 3:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
I don't know or care much about comics, but even I know that dudes wearing Punisher t-shirts are skeezy dudes.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:18 PM on November 16, 2017 [16 favorites]
My own headcanon is: for the MCU to make any sense at all, you have to assume that baseline humans in that universe have vastly increased durability and healing ability compared to humans in our own universe. Nobody ever remarks on it, though, cuz, y'know, in their universe that's just how people are: extremely hard to kill or permanently maim. A side effect of this increased durability and healing ability is a high percentage of normal people acquiring superpowers through means (lab accidents, radioactive spider bites, etc.) that would definitely just plain kill a normal human from our universe.
posted by mstokes650 at 3:25 PM on November 16, 2017 [33 favorites]
posted by mstokes650 at 3:25 PM on November 16, 2017 [33 favorites]
Also, if you run off of a cliff, you don't fall until you look down.
posted by The Great David S. Pumpkins at 3:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by The Great David S. Pumpkins at 3:33 PM on November 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
Rorschach, in my view, is only half a character. He and Night Owl are the duality of Batman. Rorscharch is the traumatized boy, crazy and awful and can't let go. Night Owl is the goofy dilettante in way over his head. Batman is far more interesting as the union of those two psyches.
posted by bonehead at 3:35 PM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 3:35 PM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
All action movies assume at least a minor level of cartoon physics, esp. regarding cranial injuries.
posted by Artw at 3:39 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:39 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
if ever we needed a gender flipped, naw, genderqueer Marvel character, it's the Punisher
posted by eustatic at 4:03 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 4:03 PM on November 16, 2017 [10 favorites]
Judge, jury and executioner. I remember reading that the Punisher once met Mephisto (Satan), who asked him "How many innocent people have you killed? Guess! I'll give you a hint: it's more than ten and less than a hundred."
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:04 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:04 PM on November 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
Although I never enjoyed a comic that had the Punisher in, I'm sure I'll watch a few episodes of this at least. I'm hoping for brutality. Will there be brutality?
posted by Grangousier at 4:05 PM on November 16, 2017
posted by Grangousier at 4:05 PM on November 16, 2017
Judge, jury and executioner.
He's not Judge Judy and executioner!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:14 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
He's not Judge Judy and executioner!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:14 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Punisher is Rambo in comic book form, and just like the movies he morphed from being a Vietnam vet with a tortured soul to some vigilante guy who shoots guns a lot.
Honestly, that’s why I really loved the Netflix version of him - it gets it the most right - Frank Castle is broken and searching for meaning in a life that used to have it, where the shining light he used to try to craft some sense of morality by is dead and gone. Punisher makes me cry, reliably, because I /know/ the brokenness, the desire to relive the war, how all of your friends are broken in some way and trying to survive in this foreign land that is your home, where nothing makes sense.
I guess I both love Punisher and hate people who love Punisher for the wrong things? Punisher isn’t cool. You’re looking at the wreckage of what used to be a life and now has only this nominal purpose. You should never want to be Punisher.
posted by corb at 5:40 PM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
Honestly, that’s why I really loved the Netflix version of him - it gets it the most right - Frank Castle is broken and searching for meaning in a life that used to have it, where the shining light he used to try to craft some sense of morality by is dead and gone. Punisher makes me cry, reliably, because I /know/ the brokenness, the desire to relive the war, how all of your friends are broken in some way and trying to survive in this foreign land that is your home, where nothing makes sense.
I guess I both love Punisher and hate people who love Punisher for the wrong things? Punisher isn’t cool. You’re looking at the wreckage of what used to be a life and now has only this nominal purpose. You should never want to be Punisher.
posted by corb at 5:40 PM on November 16, 2017 [17 favorites]
I've said it before and I'll argue again that Watchmen's Rorschach is made sympathetic as a character despite himself because he realizes too late that he was wrong about his own desires to cleanse the world of human filth. Watchmen's finale proposes a necessary sacrifice to achieve utopia, but for Rorschach the stakes were ultimately too high.
My favorite Punisher comics story is the Punisher MAX storyarc "Long Cold Dark," in which Frank and his enemies discover that Frank has an infant daughter he didn't know about. It's a shameless soap opera twist--and the story's villain is a racist caricature, and the comics artist cannot draw a plausible-looking human baby AT ALL--but it works, because for pretty much the first time ever, the Punisher as a character has something at stake. The story's ludicrously violent finale still usually makes me cry with the bleak quiet of Frank's last moments of human connection.
The Punisher's entire schtick has become The Man Who Lost Everything And Now Has Nothing To Lose, making him a dreaded, implacable, lethal force of nature instead of a person. But with nothing for Frank Castle to lose, there's literally no risk in a story about him. The Punisher comics become a one-upsmanship contest of colorful gorn and creative justifications for murdering criminals to cover over the narrative flaw that nothing is at stake for the main character. A rare Punisher moment that Marvel fans recall with great feeling is the scene during Civil War in which the Punisher refuses to fight Captain America: because Frank Castle admitting connection to/admiration for another person and/or Frank Castle refusing to commit violence are completely unheard of.
In Daredevil season 2, TV Frank's raw trauma and his emotional connection with Karen made him a compelling character. But I've mostly given up on comics stories with the Punisher as the lead. Even though The Punisher MAX series was an alternate universe from main Marvel, I'd love to see a writer shake Frank up by bringing his daughter back as a young adult estranged from him. There's a story there, about the man whose traumatic obsession with his dead family makes him unable to connect with the living, and the girl who knows her father is always going to see her as the replacement goldfish.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:45 PM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
My favorite Punisher comics story is the Punisher MAX storyarc "Long Cold Dark," in which Frank and his enemies discover that Frank has an infant daughter he didn't know about. It's a shameless soap opera twist--and the story's villain is a racist caricature, and the comics artist cannot draw a plausible-looking human baby AT ALL--but it works, because for pretty much the first time ever, the Punisher as a character has something at stake. The story's ludicrously violent finale still usually makes me cry with the bleak quiet of Frank's last moments of human connection.
The Punisher's entire schtick has become The Man Who Lost Everything And Now Has Nothing To Lose, making him a dreaded, implacable, lethal force of nature instead of a person. But with nothing for Frank Castle to lose, there's literally no risk in a story about him. The Punisher comics become a one-upsmanship contest of colorful gorn and creative justifications for murdering criminals to cover over the narrative flaw that nothing is at stake for the main character. A rare Punisher moment that Marvel fans recall with great feeling is the scene during Civil War in which the Punisher refuses to fight Captain America: because Frank Castle admitting connection to/admiration for another person and/or Frank Castle refusing to commit violence are completely unheard of.
In Daredevil season 2, TV Frank's raw trauma and his emotional connection with Karen made him a compelling character. But I've mostly given up on comics stories with the Punisher as the lead. Even though The Punisher MAX series was an alternate universe from main Marvel, I'd love to see a writer shake Frank up by bringing his daughter back as a young adult estranged from him. There's a story there, about the man whose traumatic obsession with his dead family makes him unable to connect with the living, and the girl who knows her father is always going to see her as the replacement goldfish.
posted by nicebookrack at 5:45 PM on November 16, 2017 [9 favorites]
I initially thought that "Rorschach Fans" would refer to people who see whatever they want in characters, but that works too!
I had no idea the Punisher protagonist's name was Frank, and thought that the name referred to Frank Miller, who, I assumed, had created the character before getting the gig to reboot Batman.
posted by acb at 5:57 PM on November 16, 2017
I had no idea the Punisher protagonist's name was Frank, and thought that the name referred to Frank Miller, who, I assumed, had created the character before getting the gig to reboot Batman.
posted by acb at 5:57 PM on November 16, 2017
From the archives of the mid-00's: Dr. Albert Oxford's review of the original The Punisher on Cracked, formerly Pointless Waste of Time:
posted by Apocryphon at 6:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
As sad as that may be, and it is very, very sad, the depth of sadness in the Comic Book Film medium reaches almost David Lee Rothian levels with The Punisher, a truly modern American superhero in that he has no special power other than unthinking murderous rage and an epileptic trigger finger. This 21st Century American Idol could seamlessly be replaced by a gun-toting robot or a tormented baboon and some duct tape.Read it, and weep that much of PWOT is no longer with us.
...
One must take a moment to step back and appreciate the spectacularly elaborate setup that makes this orgiastic murder fantasy possible: Castle has extensive training as an assassin, he has endless elaborate weapons, he has no human connections to protect, he has an enemy impossible to sympathize with, he has absolute justification. It's a bloodthirsty self-gratification fantasy just slightly more realistic than the Panty Monster.
And it's all so Castle can be free to live the Sociopath's American Dream: a moral blank check for endless flesh-shredding vengeance. For Castle there is no danger of bodily harm or arrest or failure; he is a machine that harvests death in the way that a wheat thresher would thresh death if it threshed death instead of wheat.
...
The lead is played by total unknown Tom Jane, who was the studio's 237th choice after Matthew Broderick and before Steven Segal. Out of fear that audiences would not recognize the hero when he walks on screen, they have forced Jane to wear a gigantic Punisher logo on his chest (an oversized skull of a beast that apparently died of starvation as its elongated teeth would not allow for a diet of anything but plankton).
posted by Apocryphon at 6:42 PM on November 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
For strictly sentimental reasons I must object to ignoring Dolph Lundgren's role as The Punisher back when T. Jane had only appeared in... 'Padamati Sandhya Ragam'?
Not a debut title I would've guessed, but cool.
posted by mr. digits at 7:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Not a debut title I would've guessed, but cool.
posted by mr. digits at 7:07 PM on November 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Punisher Max series by Garth Ennis is maybe best read as a condemnation of United States interventionism, and a depiction of how Special Forces creates monsters. A lot of people went to fight for the US in Vietnam because they thought it was the right thing to do (it wasn't). That's what the most evocative incarnation of the Punisher is about, and Frank came back a monster.
posted by Morvran Avagddu at 7:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Morvran Avagddu at 7:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also, comic books aren't superhero comics. Superheroes are intrinsically linked to violence and masculinity. Comic books can be anything.
posted by Morvran Avagddu at 7:14 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Morvran Avagddu at 7:14 PM on November 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also, comic books aren't superhero comics. Superheroes are intrinsically linked to violence and masculinity. Comic books can be anything.
(Chitownfats curls up with his treasured collections of Scamp and Little Lulu and nods sagaciously).
posted by Chitownfats at 11:11 PM on November 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
I liked The Punisher's turn in DD2 but the Netflix Marvel series have been getting worse and worse and I'm not sure that I'm up for investing the time in this one.
posted by octothorpe at 4:33 AM on November 17, 2017
posted by octothorpe at 4:33 AM on November 17, 2017
It's because they're too long. They should all be about 8 episodes.
posted by asteria at 7:22 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by asteria at 7:22 AM on November 17, 2017 [4 favorites]
I don't know or care much about comics, but even I know that dudes wearing Punisher t-shirts are skeezy dudes.
What's weird is you could tell from the first comic issue that The Punisher logo tshirt would be a great seller, but it really didn't become a thing until like 2005. That's like 15 years where Marvel could have printed money.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:36 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
What's weird is you could tell from the first comic issue that The Punisher logo tshirt would be a great seller, but it really didn't become a thing until like 2005. That's like 15 years where Marvel could have printed money.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:36 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
I thought the first season was pretty good, but I kind of fell off the Marvel Netflix train mid-Iron Fist, and probably won't hop back on until they make more Jessica Jones.
Kid-me would probably be shocked to find out that adult-me is pretty constantly complaining about too many ninjas in comic book shows.
posted by graventy at 7:38 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Kid-me would probably be shocked to find out that adult-me is pretty constantly complaining about too many ninjas in comic book shows.
posted by graventy at 7:38 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
So is there no hope for a show that pulls the curtain back for a sobering look at the effects of war and PTSD upon veterans?
posted by P.o.B. at 8:45 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by P.o.B. at 8:45 AM on November 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
In my wildest dreams, Sony would use its attempted Venom film series to explore Flash Thompson / Agent Venom as a disabled veteran who becomes a literal monster to serve his country again. But that's sadly unlikely.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:57 AM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 10:57 AM on November 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
In other FanFare/maybe-the-grimdark-isn't-as-appealing news, I notice that as of right now no one has put Justice League up on the purple, and on Rotten Tomatoes, it's currently sitting at--whoa nelly--40%.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:04 AM on November 17, 2017
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:04 AM on November 17, 2017
What little interest I had in JL evaporated when I read about The Amazons’ New Clothes.
posted by homunculus at 1:40 PM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 1:40 PM on November 17, 2017 [8 favorites]
> "What little interest I had in JL evaporated when I read about The Amazons’ New Clothes."
Yup. Fuck off, Justice League. I'll be wasting my money elsewhere.
posted by kyrademon at 9:25 AM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yup. Fuck off, Justice League. I'll be wasting my money elsewhere.
posted by kyrademon at 9:25 AM on November 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm so friggin annoyed about the Amazon costume thing. Hits one of my biggest fantasy/sci fi peeves. Like others it completely turns me off this movie especially after Wonder Woman. Their armor could be seen as sexy but it wasn't stupid. I have no issue with sexy armor, or sexy clothes. However there's a line between design that's sexy and ridiculously, impractical and stupid sexy. Women who fight running around with their midriffs exposed is the height of stupid sexy.
Occasionally in some of my D&D games the DM will show a picture they grabbed from the internet of a NPC. If the armor is stupid sexy, bare midriff, armor that looks like as soon as they swing their arms it will slip off their boobs, clothes that will fly open and expose everything as soon as they fall over I make fun of it big time. In one game I even made point of wearing stupid sexy armor myself and roleplayed having to deal with a multitude of wardrobe malfunctions when fighting. It was hilarious but the point was made. It's a small thing but at least in one game the DM now takes the time when googling for pictures and the rest of the guys now look at representations of woman in fighting gear with more practicality in mind.
And no, saying the armor is magic because fantasy and therefore has some sort of magic invisible force field that covers their stomach or that it's made from magical material that just sticks to our boobs doesn't cut it gentlemen.
posted by Jalliah at 12:37 PM on November 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
It kind of amazes me, how people yell "You're telling! The wrong! Story!". It's like we're all in the same living room, and there's only one TV, and some people *really* feel like comedy and others *really* want to watch the news...
Different stories speak to different people. The flip side of that, of course, is that different people should have stories that speak to them too.
posted by effugas at 7:17 PM on November 18, 2017
Different stories speak to different people. The flip side of that, of course, is that different people should have stories that speak to them too.
posted by effugas at 7:17 PM on November 18, 2017
I'm only a few episodes into it, but it seems to be a no-holds-barred condemnation of our particular flavor of the Forever War. He's a superhero only inasmuch as he can actually something about it. He's an imperfect dad and husband, but a decent dad and husband. The toxicity that flows was generated by our own war-engine, and the fantasy is that there are good people who can oppose it, even after being neck deep into it.
Fuck Garth Ennis. This is the best Punisher story line.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:49 PM on November 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Fuck Garth Ennis. This is the best Punisher story line.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:49 PM on November 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
In the comics, Frank killing people is a big deal and a serious difference from the others who wear costumes.
I had briefly, and then gave a way to a comics fan/cartoonist friend of mine a book of superhero infographics. I flipped through it and noted that one of the things was how many opponents the various characters had killed in all their appearances to date (as of 2012 or whatever). I recall Superman and Batman both being mid-three figures, while the Punisher was closing in on the fifty thousand mark.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:40 PM on November 21, 2017
I had briefly, and then gave a way to a comics fan/cartoonist friend of mine a book of superhero infographics. I flipped through it and noted that one of the things was how many opponents the various characters had killed in all their appearances to date (as of 2012 or whatever). I recall Superman and Batman both being mid-three figures, while the Punisher was closing in on the fifty thousand mark.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:40 PM on November 21, 2017
I recall Superman and Batman both being mid-three figures
That is somewhat surprising.
posted by Artw at 4:58 PM on November 21, 2017
That is somewhat surprising.
posted by Artw at 4:58 PM on November 21, 2017
They weren’t always the way they are now, and they have had many decades to grow. In any event, I do not have the book in front of me now; it may have been low hundreds, but I recall being as surprised as you.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:52 PM on November 21, 2017
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:52 PM on November 21, 2017
They weren’t always the way they are now
Ain't that the truth.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:01 AM on November 22, 2017
Ain't that the truth.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:01 AM on November 22, 2017
The Amazon costume change was gratuitous, though in the movie for the most part many of the Amazons that the battle focuses on are officers wearing armor and so it was less grating than expected. The ones we do see wearing it are definitely made to look like cheerleaders, though.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:02 PM on November 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 5:02 PM on November 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hells Kitchen Movie Club #3: Hell Comes to Frogtown
posted by Artw at 6:58 AM on November 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:58 AM on November 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
So this happened...
Frank Discussions - Episode 15
On this episode of Frank Discussions, comics author Arthur Wyatt (@arthurwyatt) weighs in on the truly bonkers weaponry fetish catalogue known as The Punisher: Armory.
posted by Artw at 11:24 AM on November 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Frank Discussions - Episode 15
On this episode of Frank Discussions, comics author Arthur Wyatt (@arthurwyatt) weighs in on the truly bonkers weaponry fetish catalogue known as The Punisher: Armory.
posted by Artw at 11:24 AM on November 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
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posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:38 AM on November 16, 2017 [14 favorites]