Ev explains the Pyra situation.

February 1, 2001 3:46 AM

Ev explains the Pyra situation. Sad news from the makers of Blogger.
posted by prolific (178 comments total)

Godspeed Ev, Meg, Matt, Jack and all the rest.

Blogger is a great product, and I hope the situation allows me to keep on using it. There are lots of things I could say, questions I could ask, speculation I could speculate about, but I won't.

I'd like to ask folks reading this thread to cut the folks at Pyra - past and present - some slack and just leave the accusations, the "i told you so's" be. People are unemployed, stressed and frustrated, and I doubt they need more of that.

Just my tuppence worth.
posted by tomcosgrave at 4:09 AM on February 1, 2001

I see this as another example of what I call the "critical mass" law. There is a point beyond which the popularity and success of a project or community breaks it down.

Is there anyway out of it? I'm not sure.

All my sympathy to those who worked hard on the project. All my encouragements to Ev for the future.


posted by Tara at 4:11 AM on February 1, 2001

I feel ill.
posted by hijinx at 4:20 AM on February 1, 2001

Tomcosgrave, I'm with you on that one. No accusations for anyone, ok?

Evan, you're the only one who knows how to deal with this situation. I'm sure that you'll make it, somehow.

Meg, Paul, Jack and Mr. MeFi, good luck to your new efforts.

(Strangely, I feel that the only word circulating in my head right now is "damn!")
posted by kchristidis at 4:29 AM on February 1, 2001

Having just read Ev's (very moving) essay, and finding myself recently unemployed from one of the crash-and-burns, I'm really bitter toward capitalism right now.

Hear me out. We all thought this thing was going to break big, and it didn't. Well, this was our distraction. I mean, we KNEW we were fucked in high school, and perhaps even college, but the web came along, and gave us a bit of pause. That pause is, painfully, over. It has, however, provided some opportunities for observation.

We have learned that our votes are incidental to those in power. We have learned that our happiness is not a factor to those in power. How much longer shall we keep popping prozac and ecstacy to fool ourselves into thinking that this system works for us?

It is time to change the paradigm. To REALLY redefine the matrix. Not violently, but certainly definitively. I am sick and tired of shrugging and thinking that "this, too, shall pass".

Our best assets are our youth and intelligence. It's time to rethink things, folks. I don't know if there are any easy answers. I do know that we can start by being as kind to each other as possible, and hoping like hell that someone or something will show us the way. Because this whole deal really sucks.
posted by Optamystic at 4:38 AM on February 1, 2001

(Sorry:

Help us jebus!

Really sorry; couldn't help it.)

Well said by Ev. I can only imagine everyone's frustration (some of it vididly). Rich, fulfilling lives for everyone. Godspeed's a good word.
posted by sylloge at 4:49 AM on February 1, 2001

How very depressing. I hope they can salvage the service. I haven't felt as personally invested in a company culture since my apple zealot days.
posted by mecran01 at 5:26 AM on February 1, 2001

(Strangely, I feel that the only word circulating in my head right now is "damn!")

Yup. Not much more to say, I guess.


posted by palnatoke at 5:48 AM on February 1, 2001

...except maybe "dammit, they've got my FTP password!"
(yeah, OK, someone had to say something else)
posted by aramaic at 5:50 AM on February 1, 2001

I could technically survive without Blogger, but I wouldn't want to.

And that's not just a lazy comment either. I just don't know if I like a world/climate that kills off one of its best companies. I've always thought that with enough elbow grease, a good company/product will do fine.

I look at Pyra/Blogger and think "that's pretty much exactly how I would have done it", so seeing this exodus hits me much deeper than the woes at, say, Amazon.
posted by jragon at 6:02 AM on February 1, 2001

I'm really bitter toward capitalism right now.

I want to respond to this in length, but I don't think it's appropriate right now. Let me just second this sentiment, instead. I think that sad times are on the horizon.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 6:07 AM on February 1, 2001

I just don't know if I like a world/climate that kills off one of its best companies.

Not to be negative toward Pyra at an inopportune moment, but come on -- no one "killed off" Pyra. They got seed money, they made a product, they failed to make money, they ran out of seed money, and now they're broke.

Let's say a sandwich shop with fantastic food opened across the street from you, and they gave their sandwiches away free, and you loved them for it. Then one day they just closed up shop, saying, "Sorry, but we don't have any money to give you sandwiches anymore." Would you be mad at the shop's landlord for "killing off" the sandwich shop?

I wish the Pyra crew all the best; I respect their work tremendously. But I hope my fellow well-wishers realize the situation and learn from it rather than point fingers at nonexistent evildoers.
posted by werty at 6:58 AM on February 1, 2001

...rather than point fingers at nonexistent evildoers.
*cough* hey, I'm standing right here!
posted by aramaic at 7:01 AM on February 1, 2001

Would you be mad at the shop's landlord for "killing off" the sandwich shop?

Yes.
posted by sudama at 7:12 AM on February 1, 2001

I have to admit, I'm very suprised that investors haven't come to snatch Pyra/Blogger up with all the press it's had recently. There is definitely a business model there - many of us have been asking for Blogger Pro for a while. Hell, I can see huge Intranet possibilities for a MeFi-like Blogger Pro. Definitely one product that will make money amongst the market woes.

Hopefully VCs or other companies will get their head out of their ass and scoop up Pyra with it's original employees before they settle into stable, full-time jobs.
posted by bkdelong at 7:20 AM on February 1, 2001

"I'm really bitter toward capitalism right now... I mean, we KNEW we were fucked in high school, and perhaps even college"

Oh, give me a fucking break. You're bitter towards capitalism because you woke up one day and your stock options were worthless? Or are you bitter because you took a job with a company that had no valid business model in hopes that you would somehow get rich?

If there is one rule in life it's that you cannot get something for nothing. Why did you KNOW you were fucked in high school? Did someone tell you you were fucked? Was it because of all those Smashing Pumpkin's songs? Did Douglass Copeland inform you?

I'm sorry you were laid off, but that's life. You shouldn't be bitter towards a system that, although it is sometimes unfair, does work. What doesn't work is when people assume they can take a short cut to riches.

Personally, I'm glad all these dot.coms are going under. Now the 22-year-old millionaires will have to sell their houses and a hard working, realistic person like myself can afford to buy one.

I can sympathize when anyone gets laid off but to blame the system for it is like blaming the lottery for eating up most of your welfare check every week.

Welcome to the world.
posted by bondcliff at 7:32 AM on February 1, 2001

Perhaps people should work towards making a system that does work and is fair, too.

My Pyra and Blogger related thoughts are still in flux. But it still makes me ill.
posted by hijinx at 7:39 AM on February 1, 2001

Well, crap.

Funny, I was just discussing this last night -- how much longer they could survive. The stupid thing is, I'm with bkdelong -- there are revenue possibilities they haven't taken advantage of. I don't know that Blogger Basic is something that enough people would pay for to support a staff of 5 or 6 people, that's not something that's my job to figure out -- but some would. It just seems bizarre to me that there's no way to make this work. I mean by that that there must be some way. Maybe just not the Pyra standalone way.

Because the $15M/quarter threshold for internet companies to "work" (as some analyst said about Salon) just doesn't make sense to me either.
posted by dhartung at 7:41 AM on February 1, 2001

bondcliff: you're way out of line. MeFi is not a forum for personal attacks. if you can't play nice with the other kids, maybe you should go back to your room.
posted by jpoulos at 7:44 AM on February 1, 2001

Surprising and sad news, indeed, and a heartfelt thanks to Meg, Jack, Matt, and Paul as well as Evan for bringing us the Blogger tool as we know it today. Any glitches or problems it might have in the near future should be taken with a grain of salt by us all and I hope there isn't a huge proliferation of "Blogger ate my post, damnit" bitching going on. Ev and the gang were kind enough to take on BlogVoices even though they were in the midst of their own problems, so I hope folks keep that generosity in mind and not immediately complain because they can't post about this or that fabulous link today. I wish the gang the best of luck in their future endeavours, be they together or apart, and gratitude for the work they've done for us up to this point. Godspeed, indeed.
posted by evixir at 7:47 AM on February 1, 2001

Perhaps people should work towards making a system that does work and is fair, too.
I'd love to hear your plan. Capitalism is unfair, but it's vastly more fair than any other system.
I'd hope and bet that pyra is not quite done for just yet.
posted by sonofsamiam at 7:49 AM on February 1, 2001

Is it too late to ask for money?
Is it too late to switch to a PBS - type public bloggage service?

(reaches for wallet)


posted by norm at 7:51 AM on February 1, 2001

I'm sorry, but I seem to recall folks having different views in several other threads.

My attack was not so much a personal one as an attack against the attitude of "the system is against us all."

I can play nice with the other kids just fine, but occasionally the other kids need a dope slap.



posted by bondcliff at 7:52 AM on February 1, 2001

I'd add my voice to those who wager that Pyra isn't finished. While it's not surprising that another company hasn't snapped up Blogger (this isn't 1999, after all), I think the long-term prospects are good: Pyra has a popular product with loyal users and, by Ev's own reckoning, isn't throwing away tons of money on wasteful stuff. I'd be willing to pay for Blogger (my company, too), but I mightily respect Ev for keeping it free. There must be some way to make revenues from it and I hope Ev finds it soon.
posted by thescoop at 7:56 AM on February 1, 2001

For me, this is the real internet bubble bursting.
posted by ericost at 8:00 AM on February 1, 2001

What if it meant a banner ad at the bottom of every bloggered blog? Isn't that an obvious revenue stream?
posted by jpoulos at 8:13 AM on February 1, 2001

Just as it was catching on in the midwest (and that's not saying much we realize this) Time for web wave part 2 guys. There is hope! There is hope!
posted by greenbaygirl at 8:14 AM on February 1, 2001

While a lot of people were talking about making the web a cooler place, the pyra folks actually *did* it. Heartfelt thanks to them, always.
posted by Noah at 8:22 AM on February 1, 2001 [1 favorite]

what a bunch of sillies. blogger is just a simple little matter. code your own. i did. all it is, is a few scripts containing a few queries that output a few html files. shrug. yawn.
posted by quonsar at 8:23 AM on February 1, 2001

I don't think all of blogger's users can program, or care to learn. (besides, if everyone can do it, I won't be l33t no mo'!)
posted by sonofsamiam at 8:24 AM on February 1, 2001

I'm just so deflated right now. Pyra was a wonderful company that deserved more. My sincere hope is that all these individuals find success and satisfaction in their post-Pyra days. Does anyone know if Ev and Meg will still be doing their panel things at SXSW?
posted by jmcnally at 8:28 AM on February 1, 2001

I think code your own kind of misses the point of the thread...
My suggestion is this: If you're smart enough to code your own, send Evan an email volunteering your help, should he need or have use for it.
I did. I doubt he'll ever call on me, but I put the effort forth.
posted by Jako at 8:30 AM on February 1, 2001

Hey quonsar... it's about people. Not about code.
posted by prolific at 8:31 AM on February 1, 2001

Meg, PB, Matt, and Jack, thanks for all the life and love you poured into your work. It has truly shown. I wish all of you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

... and as bleak as things may seem there is still life in the Blogger service.

I had lunch with Ev yesterday. We talked a lot about what will happen in the future, what opportunities he will have to turn down, what duties he will have to outsource. Of all the things discussed, Blogger going away wasn't one of them.

Ev will be making some decisions this week that will point a clear direction for the future and *I feel* still a bright one for current Blogger users. Be not afraid.
posted by jasonshellen at 8:33 AM on February 1, 2001

Hey quonsar... it's about people. Not about code.

Good code is more interesting than most people.
posted by kindall at 8:36 AM on February 1, 2001

If you're smart enough to code your own, send Evan an email volunteering your help, should he need or have use for it.

I'm hardly a coder. But I've got a voice in the tech. media community due to my involvement with Attrition.org. I'll be leveraging those contacts today.

And for those of too lazy to look it up.

I haven't said my thanks to Matt, Meg, Ev, PB, or Jack - kudos to you for your hard work on a killer product. You were up late making something better while the rest of us were asleep dreaming of new blog posts.
posted by bkdelong at 8:39 AM on February 1, 2001

First, as many other have, I want to thank everyone at pyra. Secondly, I think it's very wrong to say that it's all about 'code'; it's not. As most of what's coming out, it's about community, one person can write a code and so can the next, they can not connect however. Blogger provided that connection, and to add, they made it easy for everyone. So, go yawn elsewhere.

Now, basically, each will go their own ways? Will they still contribute to blogger? or, in any way? What is the plan for the future?
posted by tiaka at 8:40 AM on February 1, 2001

And, yet, Dave Winer still manages to hold a grudge that he wasn't mentioned enough, to get some of the 'flow' from Pyra's fame.

Ye gods.
posted by gsh at 8:46 AM on February 1, 2001

I *did* "code my own", in fact. So what? They worked incredibly hard on a wonderful service which tens of thousands have enjoyed without paying a dime, and which has helped bring about godonlyknows how much great, thoughtful and inspiring content that simply wouldn't be out there on the web without it. You don't need to even be able to write a "hello world" script to appreciate that.
posted by Noah at 8:48 AM on February 1, 2001

And what happens to my archives? Joking.

Obviously this has been coming for some time and should be no surprise to anyone. How long has blogger pro been on the horizon? It's sad to me that we may never get a chance to see what it could of been.

I like blogger, and I liked the people who ran it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Ev.
posted by gtr at 8:51 AM on February 1, 2001

Ho-hum, another dot-com crashes. This is not news. Sure, it's someone you know, big deal; there are others of us in the blogging community who lost jobs when the bubble burst. You get over it and go on to something else.

I wish Ev luck in keeping Blogger open & free. However, it appears from the outside the growth has been exponential in recent months. I predict that before the year is out one of three things will happen: (1) Blogger crashes completely [but hey, at least Ev gets a couple of free servers out of the deal!] (2) Blogger closes to new signups so costs stay fixed (3) Bloggers gets so overloaded that it reaches a natural point where disgusted users leave as fast as new users show up.

And no, banner ads are not the obvious revenue stream. If you've been paying attention you know that banner ads are dying as a revenue stream because they don't work.

There are, of course, lots of alternatives to Blogger out there, from roll-your-own to other services to code you can download and run on your own server or even your own workstation. This isn't the end of the blogging world, just of one company.
posted by ffmike at 8:51 AM on February 1, 2001

I don't have a website, so I don't know from Blogger-the-program, but I do follow (certain) blogs fairly religiously, so I know this comes as a real blow. Whatever happens, Ev et al should be commended for making a go of it and creating a product that actually made the world more interesting. How many of us can say that?

The second thing that has always interested me is, did anyone else think it extraordinary that Pyra was able to do what so often companies suck at?--that is, stand in there as an actual, viable business model AND keep an honest, open, human face on things. What a loss (if it is a loss).
posted by Skot at 8:51 AM on February 1, 2001

Matt, Meg, Jack, & Paul: Good luck, hope you all find new jobs that are worthy of your talents.
Ev: I still have faith in you and your company, you'll recover from this major setback.
posted by riffola at 9:02 AM on February 1, 2001

Good code is more interesting than most people.

I just realized how insensitive this sounds. It was intended as an explanation of the fixation with what will happen to Blogger, not as a slam against the Pyrates.
posted by kindall at 9:12 AM on February 1, 2001

Just code your own? What kind of technogeek world do you live in? The beauty of Blogger is that I can run a blog knowing half a dozen html commands and nothing else.

Jesus. Some people...
posted by norm at 9:19 AM on February 1, 2001

ffmike: Your comments are tasteless. People here are lamenting the break down of a company that was dear to them for one reason or another, probably mostly because the people that ran it had a human face and a great generosity towards the people in this community. It is a personal loss, not just another dot com crash.

>Ho-hum, another dot-com crashes.
>This is not news. Sure, it's someone you know, big deal

You know, grandmothers die all the time, but I bet you'll still cry when yours dies.
posted by ericost at 9:20 AM on February 1, 2001

Where's the time machine when you need one? Has "IT" arrived yet?You've still got your health, experience and most of all a great group of friends because as you know, there are a lot more people worse off. I wish all of you the best of luck in whatever direction you go.
posted by brent at 9:22 AM on February 1, 2001

Very sorry to hear the news, gang. I'm a bit surprised - although the server fund thing was obvious foreshadowing, I was pretty sure it was more a matter of hunkering down and weathering the storm than something as drastic as this.

Peace and good wishes to the whole Pyra crew. You do great work.
posted by mikel at 9:25 AM on February 1, 2001

First off, thanks to The Pyra Folks for their free service. I'll keep using it as long as it keeps being good.

But I'm sure nobody sees this as a tremendous shock. It's sad, yes, because it was a group of people who cared about making a dent in the web, carving a niche, whatever, but in this day of horrible internet capitalism, companies exist on dollar bills, not interesting people. The fact that money makes or breaks web companies is unsettling, but if you want to play the web game, those are the rules. Revenue is key. You can't make it rich from a free service anymore. Free services are not companies.

Now, obviously Pyra had some tricks up its sleeve, what with Blogger Pro and whatnot, paying services intended to bring in the Almighty Revenue. And sure, we all hope that they succeed. But some people here are acting like this is the coming of the Apocalypse. It's just reality, folks. When you don't have revenue, and you have x amount of dollars, eventually you'll run out of cash.
posted by Succa at 9:38 AM on February 1, 2001

I can imagine that with 6 months more VC funding, they probably could have been ramped up to profitability. It was just getting blogger pro out the door....

not that i really want to see it, but perhaps Ev could just bit the bullet of ASPs and start charging. i imagine 5 bux a person a month would set things on a course for good. its a good program, no ads, and i think is worth paying for, even in its current form (ie. not pro)... and then when pro comes out, a little additional money for that.

someone mentioned they weren't surprised pyra didn't have a buyer... personally, i am. with all their publicity and such, it does surprise me. for instance, this would be the perfect buy for a company like yahoo... complement geocities, put then in the forefront of weblogging, which after all is said and done, is the truest, purest form.

but i think the best alternative would be the charges. its a good product.
posted by benjh at 9:42 AM on February 1, 2001

I've been having an email conversation with a fellow blogger about this. We've decided the web community is taking over. The transcript:

Him: BTW, are you as sad as I am that Pyra's gone bust?

Me: Yes. God it hurts. I didn't realize how emotionally invested I'd become in those sweeties. Webheads need to find another way. Depending upon capitalism to fund our dreams isn't working. We need to depend upon each other.

Him: My, how enlightening...what you just said...should we organize some kind of militia?

Me: Hmm...militia...but so many webheads are libs, and as such, kind of anti-gun. We'll have a tazer militia.

Him: We'll use Nerf water guns.

In all seriousness, it is time for a new paradigm. Gack. What a 90s word. ;-) We're creative folks--what are the alternatives? I'm thinking the web and its developers could be a smidge more insular. Charge an audience for a product, avoid investors as much as possible. Create an interdependent economy separate from the general market.

posted by frykitty at 9:47 AM on February 1, 2001

personally I would pay somewhere between $5 and $10 a month for the current Blogger service. I bet that about 15% of the current Blogger users would too. Perhaps it is time for Ev to ask folks to pony up? Even as little as $3 a month from a few thousand users would keep Pyra alive.

It is sad to hear, and I want to help.
posted by DragonBoy at 9:54 AM on February 1, 2001

I dunno about monthly service charges.

Take, for example, Napster. Napster is going to start charging, what is it, $15/month? Or something? Anyway, what happens when people who are used to a free service are asked to cough up?

They go elsewhere! I have no doubt that there'll be a "new" Napster within months of installing their new payment policy.
posted by Succa at 9:58 AM on February 1, 2001

Whoa! When I submitted that last post, I got a BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH! MetaFilter crashes Windows!

That's like the time that damn kottke.org fried my hard drive. Seriously.
posted by Succa at 9:59 AM on February 1, 2001

password protected... oh, I'm confused.

but it sounds like very bad news indeed.
posted by Sapphireblue at 10:09 AM on February 1, 2001

yes, blogger *is* worth paying for -- but a lot of blogger users are kids or students. in a world where your income is already one hundred percent budgeted out, and extra five dollars a month presents a serious challenge.

do you think people would pay on a voluntary basis?
posted by rabi at 10:26 AM on February 1, 2001

I haven't felt as personally invested in a company culture since my apple zealot days.

I was/am rooting for Pyra too. Blogger's a great product that has, along with EditThisPage, made a dramatic effect on the Web. I never would have expected so many people to set up personal sites updated daily with new content. A lot of dot-coms deserve to go bust, but this one has a good product that's obviously meeting a need.

MetaFilter's hosted on a machine at Pyra, if I'm not mistaken. Does this news affect that situation?




posted by rcade at 10:32 AM on February 1, 2001

I feel kinda lost and left out! I don't use Blogger. LOL! So I guess none of this affects me. Tally Ho!
posted by FAB4GIRL at 10:40 AM on February 1, 2001

I would be willing to send in 5 or 10 dollars, and I don't even use Blogger. I would pay just for all that Blogger has made it possible for me to read and see and experience.

(Boy that sounds really cheesy. Sorry.)
posted by donkeymon at 10:47 AM on February 1, 2001

Thanks for all the kind words and support, as always, they mean so much. If it weren't for the support of the community, I suspect we would have lost hope a very long time ago. And yes, I'm still planning on speaking at SXSW.
posted by megnut at 10:50 AM on February 1, 2001

I can safely say that if it hadn't been for Pyra I would have *no* presence on the web today (I suppose you might think that that would be a good thing, but... it's done a lot for me personally and I've met some fantastic people through weblogs). Blogger is a great enabler. Thanks Pyra. I'd pay, you know.
posted by Caffa at 10:55 AM on February 1, 2001

frykitty takes the conversation to its inevitable destination:

"Snif. I love you guys."
posted by frykitty at 11:05 AM on February 1, 2001

in the years i've been using the web, many services have come and gone. some of the disappearances made me sad cause their service provided a convenience that would no longer be available. others i wasn't sure should have been around to begin with.

the unusual thing about blogger is that even though i didn't actually know any of its employees, i can empathize. i think this is the magic of personal webpages and the product that allowed you to create them easily.

whether you can code your own or not really isn't the point here. the point is, these people worked hard to create something they believed in. they didn't lose their excitement about the product at any point and they used it extensively, setting a great example.

which is why, i think, so many of us are sad. i'm sitting here, desperately trying to think of a way to help out. not cause i can't write my own html files, but cause i feel these people deserve better. just like many others who've been suffering lately.

good luck and good wishes to all of them.
posted by karen at 11:09 AM on February 1, 2001

I do think this is very sad, even though I've stopped using Blogger in favor of a local script.

I think this failure illustrates a fundamental point of business: if you go into business, you have to make money to stay in business. If you want to be nice, and give stuff away for free, that's great! But don't expect to stay in business.

Blogger should have charged a fee. They should have started charging months ago. "Sorry guys, but if you don't pay us, we'll have to cook and eat Meg. And you don't want that to happen. Neither does Meg. So please fork over some cash, like maybe $5 a month, or we'll cut you off."

Sure, a million of you bums would screech and sling snot and bawl like little babies and post anti-blogger banners and fill gigabytes of MeFi's drivespace with your self-pitying drivel, but the Pyra guys would have jobs, and you'd be no great loss.

I do take great issue with this ''poor budgeted college kid so I can't pay'' concept. If you can't pay five bucks a month, sixty a year, the cost of three cds, a Whopper combo a month..... you've got bigger problems than you think.

If you are so poor that you can't afford five bucks a month, or so bad at managing your money that you can't fork over a yearly subscription of $60, you should seriously consider investing the time you spend writing your weblog into working a few hours a week at your local McDonald's. In fact, just one hour a month at McDonald's would pay for the whole ''Blogger Experience!"

Having a website is a privilege, not a right.
posted by Unxmaal at 11:17 AM on February 1, 2001

I'm really bitter toward capitalism right now...

Just because your team loses doesn't mean the game is rigged. I'm pissed about the way the Orange Bowl came out this year, but should I rant at the BCS that made it possible for my team to play for the National Championship?

I'm very sad about Pyra too - I think they had some great ideas, and they certainly brought a great deal of attention and resources to the little niche of the web we sneeringly refer to as "weblogs." And I, like the others, wish them all well as they embark on the rest of their lives.
posted by mikewas at 11:18 AM on February 1, 2001

I'd like to point out that my comment about a world/climate that kills one of its best companies came out all wrong.

Basically, I meant shit happens, but I hate it when it happens to good people and good ideas. Just some run-of-the-mill bitching and moaning.
posted by jragon at 11:45 AM on February 1, 2001

Anyone have the text of ev's essay? evhead.com seems to be down (maybe a victim of rolling blackouts?
posted by kokogiak at 11:53 AM on February 1, 2001

I'm not pissed because MY team lost. I'm pissed because ALL the expansion teams seem to be losing. For the last three months, I've sat at this computer, monitoring dwindling job prospects, and read literally dozens of emails from friends of mine who are now out of work. These friends have run the gamut from employees of f*cked companies that we've all kinda chuckled at (sure that another opportunity would present itself) to people who were deemed to be "trimmable fat" by major corporations. This is rapidly ceasing to be, in any way, funny.

My suggestion to "rethink the paridigm" is in no way unpatriotic, un-American, or un- anything else. It is exactly what we should demand of ourselves. If a system is flawed, then it should by repaired. I consider this system to be flawed. Look around you, folks. Most of the people in the US right now are struggling mightily to acheive some sort of material success. They are in hoc up to their collective arse in pursuit of the so-called "American Dream".

This lifestyle is making many young adults desperately unhappy, and it is a problem that society is going to have to deal with in some form or the other. Personally, I'd rather it be on an intellectual plane than a Darwinistic one. Because know this: When a society ignores the real needs of the future in favor of the perceived pleasures of the moment, it does so at its own great peril.
posted by Optamystic at 11:58 AM on February 1, 2001

Speaking of costs again, there's no reason Blogger can't start charging a fee now, other than the fact that a) Pyra doesn't want to and b) it'd take some time to get the pay mechanism in place.

Without pay, Pyra maintains its integrity, community feel, and street cred. For a while, at least, until Evan runs through his savings and has to pull the plug on the servers. Then what?

A monthly pay system (I suggested one last month) would probably convert 10 to 20 percent of its user base. Do some math and it's a good idea.

If Blogger turns 100,000 users into 15,000 paying users at, say, a reasonable charter-subscriber rate of $9.95 for the remainder of 2001, Pyra would quickly have $150,000 to play with. Not a lot of money, but enough to bring back part of the team and pay the bills.

If Pyra is indeed about something more than money, it should be able to accept the reality of _needing_ money and do something about bringing in revenue. VC obviously has its limits.

(Again, I like and respect Pyra and its [former] crew, and I wish them well, but I feel like they're not seeing the picture as they should. Good luck, Ev.)
posted by werty at 12:02 PM on February 1, 2001

If people were rewarded financially for the impact they have on others' lives, I'd be demanding a look inside the Pyra jet right now. The gratitude of this user, among many others, may not pay the rent, but it's also something that can't be matched in numbers. You done good.
posted by holgate at 12:08 PM on February 1, 2001

David, surely you and others don't really think the monthly pay system never occurred to anyone? But I suspect when you run the actual numbers, looking at the actual active user base (probably less than the full 100,000 users you start with) and then look at who is likely to pay and what they're likely to pay, and the costs of migration to that system, and all the other questions - well, I suspect it's less of an issue of Pyra not being able to "accept the reality of _needing_ money" and more an issue that it still doesn't get the company to a viable place.

And to the Pyra folks, who like the Deepleap folks and numerous other people who have seen things fail this year - thanks for pushing and risking and overreaching and inspiring the rest of us to do the same.
posted by judith at 12:11 PM on February 1, 2001

They are in hoc up to their collective arse in pursuit of the so-called "American Dream".
Just coz you live in a capitalist society does not mean you must become the uber-capitalist (no umlaut, heh.) If you can pay the bills, what more would you want?
I value my "free" time and avocations much more than any job I could ever have.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:18 PM on February 1, 2001

I love capitalism, I love success, achievement, challenge, and hard work. I am willing to offer Pyra my success, my achievements, my hard work. I'm sure that everyone of you who loves blogger feels the same.

Now, Pyra does not need everyone of us to show up at HQ and chip in. Therefor exchange that effort with someone who does value what you can offer and send it in to Pyra.

Ten bucks a month sounds like a great deal and shame on all of those who do not value effort, Pyra's or their own.
posted by Mick at 12:25 PM on February 1, 2001

I'm really bitter toward capitalism right now... (part 2):

Being bitter toward capitalism does not mean I want to revolt, to institute a feudal system or to bring about anarchy. It means, damn, as good as life is for a lot of people in America, life sucks sometimes. And capitalism is part of that.

We all thought this thing was going to break big, and it didn't. Well, this was our distraction. I mean, we KNEW we were fucked in high school, and perhaps even college, but the web came along, and gave us a bit of pause.

I second this. Douglas Coupland didn't tell me I was fucked in high school. Early '90s news reports about thousands of college graduates having to be administrative assistants helped me figure it out, stagnant real estate costs in my neighborhood helped me figure it out, layoffs of friends' parents helped me figure it out.

And then it began to turn around right when I was getting in to college. I never thought the internet boom would last, but damned if I want another recession either. Infinite growth is impossible -- after a while, you just run out of people to hire. But why does everyone have to get fired in order for the economy to just hold steady?

And don't accuse me of being just a whiny recently laid-off young internet professional. I'm still employed, in a non-technology job, with a fair bit of job security, making less than a third what I was offered had I chosen to go the tech route, but at least still making something.

Sure, capitalism seems to work better than anything else in recent history, but don't tell me that it doesn't suck.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 12:30 PM on February 1, 2001 [1 favorite]

"This lifestyle is making many young adults desperately unhappy, and it is a problem that society is going to have to deal with in some form or the other."

Again, don't take this as a personal attack, but that is just wrong. I am 31 and a member of "Generation x", or whatever you want to call it.

Plenty of Americans are still working. If young adults are unhappy it's only because the windfall of the past few years is drying up and people have to start facing reality like every generation before them did.

Lots of people have busted their asses creating .com companies. Some got in at the right time or just got lucky and they walked away rich. The rest of the folks tried the same thing, assuming lightning would strike twice. Guess what? It didn't. I guess people will have to go back to working hard *and* earning realistic salaries. Good for you all form trying, but your scratch ticket didn't win.

If young adults are unhappy perhaps they should be drafted into the military and forced to storm a beach while bullets are flying at them. Even with the inevitable death of .coms our generation is still 1000 times luckier and better off than any generation before it.

Society isn't going to have to deal with anything. Young people need to accept reality, go find a job earning 30 - 40K for a few years and work their way up. Take off the shorts and sandals, take the ring out of your nose, and put on a shirt and tie.

I love Blogger. I'm sorry the dreams of the folks at Pyra didn't pan out. It would be a shame if Blogger wasn't around for me to use any more. But you know what? I was getting something for nothing for a short period of time. I should be glad I had it as long as I did, but I was getting something for nothing, and that can't last forever. A year from now when the Pyra folks are all working for a pointy-haired boss they too should look back and be glad they had something special for a short period of time. Many generations will never get that chance.
posted by bondcliff at 12:32 PM on February 1, 2001

bondcliff, your condesension is rapidly becoming tiresome. I am fully aware that having to storm a hostile beach is a greater burden to bear than the problems that we are currently facing. Just because there have been greater problems in history does not mean that current problems are irrelevant.

As for the remainder of your arguments, I suggest that you make fewer assumptions about the people who are affected by these unfortunate events. This is happening all over the country. I doubt there were many Smashing Pumpkins fans among the thousands of hard working people that Chrysler just shitcanned.

We live in a society that would prefer to throw its disenfranchised members in prison than examine the source of their woes. Last time the aristocracy started locking up the proletariat en masse, a whole bunch of those same aristocrats got themselves beheaded. This has happened repeatedly, throughout history.

So be smug and secure in your current situation if you like. But don't be surprised when this entire economic house of cards collapses. I am not advocating any particular economic system. I am, however, saying that we are on a boat in some dangerous waters, and it may be time for us to pay attention to where we're going.
posted by Optamystic at 1:16 PM on February 1, 2001

Who's throwing proletariats in jail? Who's an aristocrat? The analogies you draw are not applicable to american society. I crave specifics!
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:30 PM on February 1, 2001

We're on a boat in unrealistically smooth waters right now. The waters are going to get back to normal very soon and the party will be over.

I don't think that's anything to blame society for. Then again, I'm currently employed.

posted by bondcliff at 1:45 PM on February 1, 2001

Just to repeat the mention way up above, did everyone see Scripting News today?

Dave turns the whole pyra story around to himself. IT'S ALL ABOUT DAVE, REALLY!!!

Dave never ceases to amaze me.
posted by mathowie at 1:50 PM on February 1, 2001

Of course, we're talking about a guy (Dave) who did a long rant on the failure of HTML 3.0 without ever considering the lesson that a standard is utterly useless if no one wants to use it.
posted by harmful at 1:55 PM on February 1, 2001

The dotcom I was working for shutdown in Dec. Got tricked to work another week to archive everything with the understanding of getting severance, that never happened.

Now a small group of us are starting our own company. Crazy? Perhaps, but anything is worth doing when you have a good group of people together. It seems that that's what Pyra had. So no matter what anyone says, you have the experience of working for something that you enjoy with people you care about.

The next generation of companies have to be smarter, smaller, and more focused. We don't want to lose our optimism or pioneering spirit. One of the major goals of our new company is a product that I have always wanted to do. It's my dream job and I'm going to be in good company. I only hope that others can get that chance.
posted by john at 1:58 PM on February 1, 2001

Dave seems to be taking this oppurtunity to obliquely gloat.
posted by sonofsamiam at 2:08 PM on February 1, 2001

re: Dave's latest. I'm reminded of Bill Hicks' comments on Denis Leary: "I stole his act. I camouflaged it with punchlines, and to really throw people off, I did it before he did."
posted by holgate at 2:17 PM on February 1, 2001

sonofsamian,

The specifics that you requested.
posted by Optamystic at 2:18 PM on February 1, 2001

Winer seems to take every possible opportunity to get himself in the story. He had a screenshot up a while ago of an error on Evhead.com and he tried to make the caption something nice, but basically he was pointing out "oh look Pyra are having problems!".

He's made it very clear before that he wishes his sites had as many users as Blogger, but instead of actually trying to do something to get more users, he decides to spend most of his time whining about not getting credit for single-handedly inventing SOAP, weblogs and some other things he didn't have that much to do with, and then expects his competitors to send him traffic. I mean come on, it's nice that the Pyra crew have not publicly flamed him for some of his more retarded comments about them, but to expect them to actually publicize his business is more delusional than usual.
posted by beefula at 2:21 PM on February 1, 2001

Try Winerlog, the weblog about Dave Winer, for more Dave Winer mockery.
posted by waxpancake at 2:31 PM on February 1, 2001

Thank you, Pyra. Very much.
posted by jason at 2:32 PM on February 1, 2001

I was always uncomfortable with the dot.com hype. I used to do business development for the Ontario government during the early-1990s recession, and I saw a lot of business plans, good and bad. It was more than a bit depressing; 85% of new businesses fail in the first three years, primarily because they run out of money. These weren't dot.coms, but people trying to start restaurants and bookstores.

Blogger is a great, great idea. It should be the basis for a Web-based content management system, and it can certainly be sustainable with a realistic business plan. If Yahoo or Interwoven or someone else doesn't buy it and leverage the user base to make something that works, it's a mistake.

The Internet isn't going to go away. Whenever a new media form comes along there is an undignified scramble in the world of commerce to come up with business models that work. The best parallel I know of is radio in the 1920s. There was the same sort of energy that I have felt on the 'Net in the past five years, and the same sort of confusion about how any money will be made. Unlike radio, though, I think the Web will always be a great place for individual expression and real community.
posted by tranquileye at 2:33 PM on February 1, 2001

Capitalism has always done a shitty job of preserving anything of value. It's the nature of the beast.
posted by tranquileye at 2:42 PM on February 1, 2001

Best wishes to all associated with Blogger.

Dave Winer is like a daily car crash. Every day, I'm at his site, rubbernecking at the ridiculous things an oversized ego and an undersized talent can make a person say. He could have shown some class about the situation at Pyra. But that would have broken his streak...
posted by websavvy at 2:55 PM on February 1, 2001

Sorry to hear about all this.

Winners are always winners and they always win.
Pyra are winners..
Evidence: The amazing result they got with the recent server fund. Winners.

Message to EV: You are right. Carry on and take any help you're offered. There are an outstandingly higher amount of people proud to be using Blogger than proud not to be.
posted by momblog at 2:58 PM on February 1, 2001

Winerlog has turned into a mean-spirited, unfunny mockery of itself. It's funnier just to read Dave's own words.
posted by ericost at 3:00 PM on February 1, 2001

Optamystic: so the proles are minorities, right? Particularly black males? And the "aristocrats" are... drug war officials? The war on drugs is misguided and misused, I'd agree, but this hardly has to do w/ capitalism.
posted by sonofsamiam at 3:07 PM on February 1, 2001

sonofsam: take it elsewhere. you're WAY off-topic.
posted by jpoulos at 3:14 PM on February 1, 2001

I wrote a rant about this on my site a few minutes ago, I thought it might be of interest to this community.

Note that I haven't read anything on this thread yet so it's not at all based on what you might have already read here. I'll probably go back and read this thread to catch up.

Also note that this was a rambling rant -- I didn't come up with my conclusion until I was most of the way through writing it, so it's not like I had a mission when I started typing. (But it may sound that way once you read it)

Here it is:

http://jim.roepcke.com/rants/nomorefreelunches

Congrats to MetaFilter for kicking butt at the bloggies, and congrats to Jish for winning best Canadian weblog!

Jim
posted by jroepcke at 3:42 PM on February 1, 2001

Seems Dave Winer wussed out:
"Comments about ZDNet, News.Com and other press outlets, and Blogger were deleted here. I got an email that pointed out an error in fact which undermined the opinion. I wish the very best to Evan and the other Pyra people."
posted by owillis at 4:13 PM on February 1, 2001

Sorry to hear about that aaron. My parents are going through the same problem, and my latest contract just finished too. We're all in this together, right? :-(

Jim

posted by jroepcke at 4:15 PM on February 1, 2001

Oh come now. Please. Just cause I didn't post drippy soporofic stuff on Scripting News doesn't mean I don't care. I love Blogger, and Evan and Megnut and PB, and Matt, et al. I'm very sad they're going through this. Matt, don't make it about me, it isn't. If my words amuse some, or give you some sense of purpose, that's fantastic. I would still like to help Blogger. The software business sucks. It's hard work, and heart-breaking at times. That's it. Over and out (oh and have a nice day).
posted by davewiner at 4:16 PM on February 1, 2001

Thanks Jim. We are all in it together, somehow. But it's pretty damn lonely here tonight.
posted by aaron at 4:20 PM on February 1, 2001

A good take on it.
posted by sylloge at 4:32 PM on February 1, 2001

I'm confused. This is about Pyra, the company. And, probably, Pyra the software. I doubt if Blogger is is going to disappear anytime soon. "Reports of our death have been greatly exaggerated!"
posted by todd at 4:59 PM on February 1, 2001

Matt, Meg, Jack, PB, Evan, sorry to hear about Pyra's semi-demise. It sucks when things can't work out how you'd like them to. It's nice to know that Blogger will stick around for a while at least, and I'm sure you'll all go on to do more great things on the Internet and off.

Aaron, sorry to hear about your dad's situation. Life sucks sometimes (often?).

[davewiner] Matt, don't make it about me, it isn't

Dave, it's pretty clear to me that you made it about you, not Matt.

[RE Capitalism]
As much griping as there is here about capitalism, is there really a possibility that any other economic system could do a better job? Given human nature, I don't think so, but I guess the real question is, what are our goals in deciding on an economic system? Do we want everyone to have all their needs provided for them? Sure, that'd be nice. Do we want everyone to be happy all the time? Great, I'm in. Do we want to make our lives safer, easier, longer? Sure, go for it.

I think a market economy is the best way to meet those goals for reasons I won't go into here. Sure it sucks in lots of ways. Not everyone has a job all the time. Most businesses don't succeed. Life sucks. Capitalism isn't "fair." Life isn't "fair."

If we didn't have to struggle and suffer to get somewhere, then what was the point anyway?
posted by daveadams at 5:11 PM on February 1, 2001

Anyway, how about some discussion of the technical issues, and helping Blogger dig out of the scaling hole and get them some revenue so Ev can get some help. That might be interesting and might actually help Blogger.
posted by davewiner at 5:29 PM on February 1, 2001

Been thinking about the Pyra kids all day... Very sour news. Makes it all very clear to me, that despite the illusion of intimacy weblogs provide, you never really know what is going on in peoples real lives. It is sad to think of ev sitting alone in the office, and the rest of the gang working for other people. Hard to imagine one guy having to know enough about everything to keep all the balls in the air, I really hope this is just the rough part that makes the ultimate success story sound good in retrospect.

Hope everyone has some money put aside, and can get through this comfortably.
posted by thirteen at 5:43 PM on February 1, 2001

How come I never get quoted in Wired and Suck? I say messed up quotable things ALL the time.
posted by thirteen at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2001

aaron: apologies about your father.

an aside: city government = socialism?
posted by allaboutgeorge at 5:56 PM on February 1, 2001

Some facts to chew on as you discuss all this:

1. People were laid off weeks ago and have been working on a volunteer basis ever since.

2. Everyone has gone without at least one paycheck, many for many more.

3. It's obvious people will pay for Blogger, people donated nearly $15,000 to the server fund. They've just never been given the opportunity to buy Pro, Custom, or Enterprise. No one's ever even been given a price for any of these products.

4. Blaming the company's demise on the economy is shifting the blame to the wrong people. A good company adjusts to the business climate in which it operates.

5. I will never work for a pointy-haired boss.
posted by megnut at 6:05 PM on February 1, 2001

I got all of my thoughts down, finally.

Meg: I have heard good things about those with buzzcuts. (and thank you!)
posted by hijinx at 6:12 PM on February 1, 2001

Apologies, I got a touch carried away there.
posted by baylink at 6:30 PM on February 1, 2001

but perhaps you could be the pointy headed boss? or is that spiky-headed boss :)
posted by cell divide at 6:34 PM on February 1, 2001

One thing I've never quite understood is why Blogger is built into a web server. Is the idea of building standalone applications just too old fashioned nowdays, or what? What can Blogger do as a drain on Pyra's bandwidth that it can't do as an application on my desktop, and is it worth the (recurring) cost?

-Mars
posted by Mars Saxman at 6:50 PM on February 1, 2001

Mars, part of the beauty of blogger as a web app is that you can access it from (pretty much) any web client. When I went home for the holidays, I was still able to blog to my heart's content through my dad's computer...Also, as a web app, blogger could be updated and maintained on the fly instead of having to ship out updates every time a bug was discovered....
-B
posted by bshort at 7:22 PM on February 1, 2001

Some guy named Matt Haughey or something like that posted his take on the Pyra bidness (I understand he runs a site called MeatFilter), and so did jack saturn. (for the two of you who didn't check those sites feverishly)
posted by hijinx at 7:45 PM on February 1, 2001

I had a feeling there was more to the story.
posted by oh posey at 8:04 PM on February 1, 2001

And, probably, Pyra the software - Todd

There is so much potential in the Pyra team organizing application which is somehow cooler than affordable competitors like iTeamwork.com and eProjects.com. Ev had mentioned recently that it was not currently being developed, what with all the Blogger work going on.

I hope that once things stabilize and Blogger's survival is assured, that Ev & crew will continue work on the eponymous Pyra product. It, too, is something I would be willing to pay for.

posted by Tubes at 8:36 PM on February 1, 2001

I wonder how different the results of Pyra's Server Fund drive would have been had this story broke first? How many people thought they were supporting the whole team, and not just Ev?

I hope the kind folks who gave did so without any conditions or expectations.
posted by Calebos at 8:40 PM on February 1, 2001

Tubes, have you been reading the thread? There are 116 posts talking about how there is no "& crew" at Pyra. It is only Ev.
posted by megnut at 8:42 PM on February 1, 2001

calebos, that's exactly what i was thinking. i hope that most of the users gave us money in the spirit of what we had already given them. i remember having this daydream, right after the drive was hugely successful. i thought about what it would be like if we suddenly prospered, and each had millions of dollars. i thought about how i'd check those paypal records and pay back each of those people who donated, out of my own share in the profits. sort of a "settling up" kind of thing. but, y'know.. oh well.
posted by jacksaturn at 8:52 PM on February 1, 2001

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WEEEEELLLLLL


SUCKER.... ADIOS BLOGGER!
posted by spankerisimo at 9:11 PM on February 1, 2001

I've never before been so sad for people I don't know about a product I don't use.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 9:15 PM on February 1, 2001

if I win the lottery tomorrow, pyra can have half.
posted by Nyx at 9:22 PM on February 1, 2001

I have been trying to convince my client (part of the Federal Government) to bring in something like Blogger to keep better track of the whole project and its various components. I don't have the time to build a blogger tool and build the site's content management tools too. I have been hoping Blogger could package something that could run on an Intranet. Hopefully they will figure out how to keep the thing running and bring in one or two more folks to build an Intranet version of the professional tools.

I think many of the general users (based on my own group of friends) would pay $3 or so from pay pal to keep things and help them run smoothly. This would be about $60,000 per month for Pyra if only 20,000 users of the 75k that have set-up Blogs opted in. Everybody I have turned on to this over the last six months or so has been amazed it was free. Most were willing to pay. A few friends even setup websites, just to take advantage of this.

Bummer.

I wish all the Pyra folks nothing but the best.
posted by vanderwal at 9:34 PM on February 1, 2001

(BTW, did anyone archive the WineRant anywhere? I'd love to read it, and I promise I won't come back here and comment on it.)
posted by aaron at 10:33 PM on February 1, 2001

one, two, three, four... pyra is no more..

five, six, seven, eight, isn't that great?

nine, ten, eleven, twelve, can't you purchase blogger from the shelves?

thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, oh i burst my spleen.
posted by spankerisimo at 10:35 PM on February 1, 2001

Optamystic's comments back up top hit me where I live. Without presuming to speak for him, I'm pretty sure he wasn't venting toward capitalism for the sake of "blaming" it. Capitalism didn't make him take the risk he and his former employers took, but addressing its flaws both generally as they affect the majority of the population and specifically (as in his recent job experience) -- and being kind to one another -- are good things. The institution's not so great that it can't stand a knock or two. Justice isn't guaranteed in either system, not as long as people run it, but justice is still a worthwhile goal.

I thought I was fucked leaving high school in '89, I really did. Watched the go-go 80's disappear and watched Bush wage war over oil, and I didn't get any sense that things could be different -- that a degree or skills were going to make a difference in things. But the Web came along, and offered some opportunity, some visions and some entertainment and a life. For that, I am thankful every day.

Optamystic didn't cry out for socialism, posit it as an ideal situation or start passing out copies of the Worker's Daily. Neither have I. I don't think either it or capitalism is the answer, because there are times when capitalism sucks (even when it's going along great guns for me or you).

I wish your father the very best of luck tomorrow, and you as well.
posted by allaboutgeorge at 10:59 PM on February 1, 2001

Meg has added a bit more to this tale since I checked earlier tonight.

For whatever it's worth, my sympathy to all involved.
posted by red cell at 11:15 PM on February 1, 2001

Some people hold meaningless grudges. Everyone want to know who spankerisimo is? You're right! it's efader!
posted by mathowie at 11:15 PM on February 1, 2001

about the only upside this weblog reader can see is that Matt Haughy seems to be spending more time on MetaGilbert. (that's my personal name for MetaFilter)

So that's a plus, at least until he goes and gets another job!
posted by chaz at 11:19 PM on February 1, 2001

Tubes, have you been reading the thread? There are 116 posts talking about how there is no "& crew" at Pyra. It is only Ev. - Megnut

Yes Meg, I've read it all - I understand that Ev is now solo. I'm just hoping that things work out, and assuming that if so, there will be a crew again someday.

I'm sorry if I touched a nerve. I'm just another user with a lot of respect for what you've all done, feeling bad for the recent agony you've been through. I hope you find the sadness passes as you explore new paths.
posted by Tubes at 12:04 AM on February 2, 2001

Aaron: Old Scripting News updates show up in the timed Userland syndication index with other RSS channels. You can see Dave's original comments here.
posted by rcade at 12:22 AM on February 2, 2001

I doubt very seriously this will help, but do you think that these people would be able or willing to help fund Pyra? I basically just scanned the site, and am not sure. I think I'm hoping somebody will come and save all the wonderful people as well as the business and make all the bad stuff just go away.

As for Meg, Matt, Ev, and the rest...you guys are incredible and you do amazing work. I know you'll go on to do other great things as well. I wish you all the best. I also wish that there was something we all could do to help out.
posted by crushed at 12:23 AM on February 2, 2001

i got on the web half an hour ago after staying off it for over 24 hours and i come back to find this has happened. i am feeling rather gloomy right now.

to all the pyra kids who are now out of work i want to say a big thank you for working so hard for us blogging kids, and i hope you find good jobs soon. i hope you guys still keep blogging, or at least not disappear, so we can find out what you are all doing.

and ev, i hope all goes well with keeping blogger going.

i dont know what else to say.......
posted by endorwitch at 7:17 AM on February 2, 2001

Since Matt alerted us to efader's childish antics (again), I figured I should, once again, drag out his real information, so people who might be tempted to listen to him and his comments on other businesses might take a look at his own before doing so.

Take specific note of the discussion forums; efader loves coming in here to make trouble, so...
posted by delfuego at 7:43 AM on February 2, 2001

You're right! it's efader!

Does this mean you know who doublepostguy is too? I am obsessed with doublepostguy.
posted by thirteen at 8:21 AM on February 2, 2001

Wasn't doublepostguy Matt?
posted by Markb at 8:48 AM on February 2, 2001

i'd for sure buy MetaFilter type code/service to host my own discussion in house.

Young people need to accept reality, go find a job earning 30 - 40K for a few years and work their way up. Take off the shorts and sandals, take the ring out of your nose, and put on a shirt and tie.

naw, don't do it. don't sell out. try to get by and go after your dream. life's too short to work for the man if you don't want to.

Meg's comment is in this vein i will never work for a pointy-haired boss.

all in all, thank you, former Pyrites (and left Pyrite). y'all did good work. God bless you in the future.
posted by Sean Meade at 9:10 AM on February 2, 2001

Investors and VCs will happily leave Pyra out to dry

With all this talk about capitalism/socialism, I read this and thought "VC"="Viet Cong" for a moment there. D'oh.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 9:32 AM on February 2, 2001

naw, don't do it. don't sell out. try to get by and go after your dream. life's too short to work for the man if you don't want to.

Well, some of us find ourselves having to work for the man on our way to fulfilling our dreams, and some of us work for the man and on our dreams simultaneously. Stuff happens and you learn to deal. Learning to adapt and handling this "stuff" means growth in my book, and certainly expands our humanity. To the Pyra people, best wishes in your future endeavours - even though it may be hard to see now, you will survive this current gloom.

posted by doublehelix at 9:34 AM on February 2, 2001

The reason why [nobody has invested in Pyra recently] is because idiot investors can't distinguish between a bad investment and a good one.

Well, that and because, let's face it, their most visible product could be duplicated in under a month by a motivated Perl hacker. Blogger is cool but it is not rocket science. True, they're working on other things, and they have achieved a good amount of visibility (although that's relative), but what Pyra really has is some good ideas, a few good programmers, a loyal following, and a couple unfinished products with unknown potential.

Their one finished product is worth maybe a few thousand dollars based on how long it'd take to re-engineer it from scratch. The programmers are good, but there is a surplus of good programmers at the moment. The loyal following is nice but really, the blogging community is very small, and more or less irrelevant to the enterprise market they were planning to target with their other products.

Keep in mind they already got one round of financing based on these factors; I am not too surprised that they can't get more, especially now, and especially after they begged for donations. (It worked and it demonstrated the goodwill of the customer base, but the one thing you definitely don't want to show potential investors is how desperate you are for money. They won the battle of getting their new server but lost the war of getting more financing.)

Please remember that this doesn't reflect negatively on the people involved. It's really hard running a business; I should know, I did it for five years and ended up with about $50K of personal debts, and it wasn't even anything on the scale of Pyra. It is a common entrepreneurial error to think that because you are good at doing something, you would also be good at running a company that does that something. Domain expertise is only half the picture -- maybe, believe it or not, even less than half. That was my basic mistake and it could well have been Pyra's too.

I apologize for the dispassionate analysis from a basically disinterested observer. I'm sure it doesn't make anyone feel better about Pyra's situation, least of all the Pyrates, but they all seem like good and talented people and they will survive.
posted by kindall at 9:38 AM on February 2, 2001

"naw, don't do it. don't sell out. try to get by and go after your dream. life's too short to work for the man if you don't want to."

Ok, fine. But please don't use any of my tax dollars when you go on welfare. And please don't ever beg me for some spare change or a free Phish ticket.

Life isn't easy. Once we become adults there are many things we don't want to do, but that we must do. I didn't want to work at a Burger King when I was a teenager, but I had to do it because it was the only way to get spending money and save for school. None of us want to work for "The Man" (a silly way to put it. Does that make every boss "The Man"?) but sometimes we just have to if we want to survive.

I admire and respect anyone who takes a risk and sets out on their own. If you make it, good for you. If you don't make it, I admire your effort but I certainly can't feel sorry for you. You took a risk and you lost. That's what risks are all about. You can pick up your trainee hat and nametag over there. Welcome to working for "The Man". It sucks sometimes, but it pays the bills.

It's nice to have pride and say that you'll "never work for a pointy haired boss". That's wonderful. Good for you. When I look out the window and see you collecting cans for a living I'll be sure and admire the fact that you didn't "sell out".

posted by bondcliff at 10:16 AM on February 2, 2001

"The Man" is anyone with more money than you.
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:25 AM on February 2, 2001

I'm dreading the amount of venom that the F*edCompany (link deliberately omitted) goons are going to start spewing when they get wind of this. Especially given their joyous little wankfest back when deepleep gave up the ghost.
posted by harmful at 10:33 AM on February 2, 2001

bondcliff, you are a major league asshole.

... there *is* a middle ground between the Dream Job and "collecting cans for a living". straw man much?

I for one am thankful that we live in an age where the goal of *loving your work* is not unattainable, and would never counsel anyone to aim low for the safe bet: better to've loved and lost than never loved at all.
posted by Sapphireblue at 10:58 AM on February 2, 2001

I would never collect cans! I would much prefer to collect plastics and bottles, thank you very much.
posted by megnut at 11:13 AM on February 2, 2001

Excuse me, but someone said above that this place is not a forum for personal attacks.

I'm an asshole because I'm not jumping on the incestuous blog "community" ass-kissing bandwagon? Is Metafilter a disscussion forum only as long as you agree with the majority? If this were a discussion about Microsoft or Yahoo or any other company going down the shitter you can bet a lot more people would be posting negative (read: honest) thoughts. Pyra to me is just a company. I don't know Evnut or Megnut or Lugnut any more than I know Bill Gates. They are a company that, for all practical purposes, has failed. Just like 80% or 90% or whatever percent of companies before them.

And when I hear the founder of a failed company say things like "I will never work for a pointed headed boss" I feel a lot less sorry for them. I work for "The Man" *and* I enjoy what I do. It is possible. I'm lucky and I know it. I've also earned it and I've taken a risk ro two to get here. There is a middle ground, sure. I wish anyone luck following their dreams, but following dreams doesn't mean living in one.

Do I like seeing people lose their jobs? Not at all. I might be there tomorrow myself. But if I was there tomorrow you can be sure I'd be off working for "The Man" at McDonalds or doing whatever it takes to pay the rent. You have to do what you have to do.

And as I preview this, I notice that Meg has posted a comment. I'm very glad to see that some people here have a sense of humor and can distinguish between honest discussion and being an asshole.
posted by bondcliff at 11:19 AM on February 2, 2001

Your sympathies are quashed because a recently-unemployed person jokes about who they want to work for? Good thing that Meg didn't joke that she'd only consider future opportunities which included a sic fgure salary, immediate stock options, use of the corporate helicopter and a private masseuse.

Btw, I presumed the pointy-headed thing was a Dilbert reference, wasn't it? In which case, no one in their right mind would want to work for such a boss.
posted by Dreama at 11:33 AM on February 2, 2001

I'm an asshole because I'm not jumping on the incestuous blog "community" ass-kissing bandwagon?

I don't purport to speak for anyone but myself, but I would guess it's because of the exertion of your attitude that "working for 'The Man' is fine" is the uberattitude for everyone to subscribe to. You say that you wish people luck following their dreams, "but following dreams doesn't mean living in one." Well, why not?

You have to do what you have to do.

Yes, and some people have to follow and live their dreams. Don't knock down others because their dreams and lifestyles aren't the same as yours. Not everyone loves the system and society and working for the sole purpose of making money all the time. You love your job, fine, enjoy it. But don't tell me not to live in my dreams.
posted by hijinx at 11:36 AM on February 2, 2001

> their most visible product could be duplicated in under
> a month by a motivated Perl hacker. Blogger is cool but
> it is not rocket science.

This is wrong in so many ways, I don't even know where to begin. For starters:

- It's not just the code, and it's not just the features, two things that Perl hackers typically focus on and excel at. Blogger was so simply designed (from UI and usability perspective) that anyone could use it...and it had the code and features.

- The Blogger framework is a lot more extensive than you probably realize. Duplicating it would take longer than "under a month".

Yes, it's not rocket science, but getting things right from so many angles (tech, design, UI, usability, user experience, etc., etc.) and rolling it all into one product is not a trivial undertaking. It would take a truly special individual to duplicate all of it, even if s/he had 6 months.
posted by jkottke at 11:45 AM on February 2, 2001

I'm very glad to see that some people here have a sense of humor and can distinguish between honest discussion and being an asshole.

maybe, bondcliff, but it appears that you aren't one of those people. (and if i was Meg, i would have made that comment facetiously. don't conclude too quickly that she doesn't think you're an 'asshole'. i would if i were her. she just didn't say so.)

you jumped in here with an unsympathetic hammer and started pounding people. to wit:

your original posted comment, which i replied to, was condescending, though i tried to reply glibly to defuse the ire.

you implicitly accused most of us of being on the incestuous blog "community" ass-kissing bandwagon.

dissin' Ev(nut) and Meg(nut and Lugnut).

all riled up about 'pointy headed' (sic.) and 'the Man'.

there are plenty of people who managed to be 'honest' without being offensive. if you want to be offensive, that's your business, but don't cry foul when people act up.
posted by Sean Meade at 11:49 AM on February 2, 2001

"but following dreams doesn't mean living in one." Well, why not?

If you have to ask...

"The Blogger framework is a lot more extensive than you probably realize. Duplicating it would take longer than "under a month"

But what about duplicating the part of it that most of us use? The part that updates a page, organizes archives, and FTPs it to a site. I'm not talking about the whole infrastructure but just a simple stand-alone Freeware app that would do what Blogger does. You cannot tell me that would take many months to do.
posted by bondcliff at 11:53 AM on February 2, 2001

You cannot tell me that would take many months to do.

Every software project is easy to duplicate if you have no intention of actually doing it.
posted by harmful at 12:08 PM on February 2, 2001

"Every software project is easy to duplicate if you have no intention of actually doing it."

heh. I *do* intend to do it. As soon as I'm done with that custom built, bug-free, version of Windows I intend to write.
posted by bondcliff at 12:11 PM on February 2, 2001

Blogger makes me feel good on the inside. I felt like I was a part of something amazing by using it, now I am sad. I'm sad that the people that took their talent and drive to the limit to bring me this experience have had to watch their dreams slip though their fingers like sand.

When one door closes another one always opens, it's the hallways that are a bitch. I hope the best for all of you that had to leave Pyra. Thank you for sharing your talent, love, and experience with me.

posted by Jeremy at 12:17 PM on February 2, 2001

But what about duplicating the part of it that most of us use? The part that updates a page, organizes archives, and FTPs it to a site. I'm not talking about the whole infrastructure but just a simple stand-alone Freeware app that would do what Blogger does. You cannot tell me that would take many months to do.

Bondcliff, what do you think the java framework did, water the flowers outside? It took your posts and put them in the db, it created the flat files, applied your templates, then transferred them to your site. It also did this all with XML over HTTP, so calls could come from any server, not just the ones in the rack (this is how newsblogger works remotely and how wireless blogger works).

Sure you could have just a mess of scripts to do each step, and that's how Blogger started, but it would frequently strain under a modest load. Ask the early users what that used to be like.
posted by mathowie at 12:23 PM on February 2, 2001

Question to the Pyrates:

Some analysts at my company say they believe internet hiring practices will be very different from traditional companies, and that internet companies will periodically shed employees, then slowly re-expand as they figure out the market better.

So-- if Ev manages to bring down costs, bring in some cash, and is able to rehire you one-by-one, would you do it?

This applies to all of the recently laid off dot-commers out there-- would you go back to your old job if it were possible?
posted by cell divide at 12:42 PM on February 2, 2001

If you are interested, pb posted a sort of history of pyra and blogger. I have to stop reading all this stuff; I'm getting an ulcer.
posted by Nicotine Nolan at 1:16 PM on February 2, 2001

Matt wrote: "Sure you could have just a mess of scripts to do each step, and that's how Blogger started, but it would frequently strain under a modest load. Ask the early users what that used to be like."

You could probably make a desktop app that would provide the functionality. Granted, getting a local database (or file) of some sort to store the data would require a bit of work. And you would loose the ability to post from anywhere. But you wouldn't have to worry so much about scalability.

I haven't thought about it much, but it seems to me that with some good planning you could spec out a desktop blogger app that would meet the requirements of a lot of people.

Of course, the devil is in the details.

The withering of Pyra is unfortunate. It's obvious and no surprise to me that a lot of people were emotionally attached to both the people who made up Pyra as well as the work they did. Sure, it didn't last forever, but nothing does. That shouldn't take away from what you and the rest of the Pyra crew accomplished. Through your efforts, you touched the lives of thousands of people, something most of us can only dream of doing.

You are good people, who built a good company and did good work. Thanks.


posted by Calebos at 1:45 PM on February 2, 2001

"occasionally the other kids need a dope slap" : that medicine of yours tastes awful nasty, apparently.

thanks to Sean Meade for saying more lucidly what I was thinking, minus my English-to-asshole translation.
posted by Sapphireblue at 2:07 PM on February 2, 2001

You could probably make a desktop app that would provide the functionality. Granted, getting a local database (or file) of some sort to store the data would require a bit of work. And you would loose the ability to post from anywhere. But you wouldn't have to worry so much about scalability.

So Calebos, you solve the scalability issue. Big deal.

What about data integrity, reliability, desktop/hard drive crashes, updates, support, syndication, central searching, and security?

And then where does the money lie for all this work (with none of the other benefits you could trust a company to handle for you)?

It doesn't matter anyway, there are already desktop clones of blogger, but they never took off. Why is that? (remember jason's point about an elegant, easy-to-use UI? this ain't it)
posted by mathowie at 2:18 PM on February 2, 2001

I'm wondering if I'm missing something here. We can all still blog, right? Blogger.com is still up. You can still create a new blog. You can still add to your blog. You can still link to other people's blogs and get linked by other people's blogs. The community is still there. Isn't that the important part?

So, I guess that's my practical question. *Is* Blogger going away? If it is, that totally sucks. If not, then you guys done good. You made a product that's sticking around. You rock.
posted by Tin Man at 2:23 PM on February 2, 2001

I find that far too often we give opinions that are not thought out, uninformed, biased and ignorant. This is certainly unfortunate.

That being said: Which of you MetFi users were a fly on the wall of Pyra for the last two years? I certainly wasn't. I do not presume to comment on things which I have no knowledge of, nor should you.

Praise Pyra for their struggles and victories. Praise Pyra because it's easy to criticize from down the street, from a thousand miles away from behind the glow of your computer screen. Cowards!

It is bad enough that the Pyrates are out of work - do you have to kick them while they are down?

gets down off her soapbox
posted by thacker at 5:14 PM on February 2, 2001

LOL, it's funny, I totally agree with mathowie, when he said "What about data integrity, reliability, desktop/hard drive crashes, updates, support, syndication, central searching, and security?".

But ya know what, that doesn't mean jack if noone pays for the hardware and bandwidth to keep it running.

So, *if*/once all the centralized web-app webloggin' tools go under, all we'll be left are the desktop apps.

A hybrid is the right model, IMO.

Jim
posted by jroepcke at 7:41 PM on February 2, 2001

geez, bondcliff -- bitter much?

acting like all of us who work in the web industry and have been laid off need to "get in touch with reality" by getting a "real job" really makes you sound like a dork. you aren't actually that naive, are you?

why are people outside this industry so quick to assume we're all a bunch of idiot kids who fell backasswards into the now-dubious fame and fortune of the web?

quite a lot of us are in our thirties, have college degrees and have worked some shit jobs. we started doing web work way back when because we loved doing it. and we'll keep doing it for the same reason. many of us have paid our dues in this business with years of hard work and we have no intention of walking away now.

when the dust settles, the only ones who won't be able to find work will be the truly talentless people who got into the industry just for a quick buck. they'll go back to doing whatever it was they were doing before the boom. all that does is narrow the pool of competition for the rest of us.

so if you think we're going to wind up on "welfare, collecting cans" as you so eloquently put it, you're sadly mistaken. sorry to spoil your bitter bash, but we're not going anywhere.

despite your comments to the contrary, you sound like an unhappy person who's intensely jealous of anyone who has the strength of conviction to follow a dream and see it through, for better or worse.

and meg, dear? i'm with you. no pointy-haired bosses for me either. been there, done that. never again.
posted by shauna at 3:54 AM on February 3, 2001

You flaunt it baby!
posted by sylloge at 3:59 AM on February 3, 2001

Coming to this party very late, let me say I do wish the Pyra folks all the best. I think you put ideas before profits which scores big karma points with me but won't keep you afloat as a business model in a cutthroat capitalist society (for good or ill).I see a lot of discussion about lifestyle choices. I say, chase your dreams, folks! Sure, you can say "screw it, I'll put on my tie, drive an hour each day to my fifty hour a week dead end job I can't stand, but, hey, at least I have my suburban McMansion, my two and a half kids, my consumer toys I can't afford and never have time to use, etc. etc." I'll pass on that, thanks. For me personally, that's Death. If it works for you, that's great. It doesn't for me. I require very little to survive and prefer to chase my desires rather than throw them away. I might have a short and poor life, but I think I'll be happy.I just wish I'd figured this out a lot sooner.You pursue your form of success, I'll pursue mine!
posted by Mr. skullhead at 10:23 AM on February 3, 2001

Matt wrote: "What about data integrity, reliability, desktop/hard drive crashes, updates, support, syndication, central searching, and security?"

If you read the next line in my post, I state that the devil is in the details, so I agree completely that there are issues to be solved beyond scalability. But they are solvable. There are also UI issues, which are solvable as well.

It all depends on what you are trying to do. It seem to me that if the goal was to give people a software tool that they could use, that it should be possible push the computing back onto the desktop system. Yes, it's hard, but...


You know what? Forget it.
posted by Calebos at 3:01 PM on February 3, 2001

hmm... i tried so hard to refrain commenting on this much here or at my own blog (not that i've been commenting here in the past few months, just lurking)...

anyway...

it sucks. there's not a whole lot of reason for me to say more but okay it does, and i will, because that is my nature. i do have to say this - so many people have switched to greymatter in the past few weeks, just like a bunch of chickenshit VC's (no offense, noah, it's a rockin' product) that maybe the end result will be that blogger winds up bigger, better, and faster just by the sheer amount of weeding out that will get done by its own users.

blogger made me lazy, that's true. i haven't changed the design of my website in over a year. blogger also made me care less about web development, which, surprisingly enough, had a huge impact on my decision to move on to a different, unrelated career i find much more gratifying while still holding on to the most basic aspects of what i enjoy about the web - communication and self-publishing. and using blogger tripled my traffic. yes, i do care about that. yes, i do enjoy reaching a larger number of readers. yes, i do enjoy all the people i've 'met' and chatted with online since they discovered my site. and i hold a sort of allegiance to the product because of it.

hundreds of dot coms have died, failed, or 'scaled back' in the past few months - but very few of them can claim an honest audience of disappointed users who still hold its product in high regard. blogger revolution version one may be over, but it's certainly not the end. they did a little more than create a product.
posted by cadence at 5:06 PM on February 3, 2001

I just can't see why Blogger Pro hasn't been released. I'm sure a few thousand people would pay $3-$4 a month for it.. and PayPal offers the ideal payment system.
posted by wackybrit at 2:08 PM on February 4, 2001

Maybe it's not done yet?
posted by rodii at 2:11 PM on February 4, 2001

"But please don't use any of my tax dollars when you go on welfare."

"naw, don't do it. don't sell out. try to get by and go after your dream. life's too short to work for the man if you don't want to."

Both of those quotes are so incredibly myopic and lacking in logic that it's humorous.

Just because someone doesn't choose to make 30-40k a year sitting in a cubicle (I'm assuming that's the sort of job to which you were referring) does not automatically make them a candidate for welfare. Just because someone doesn't fit into your end of the spectrum does not mean they're on the completely opposite end. And, in case you've forgotten, there are people who work at least one job sometimes two and still need welfare to help them out. Also; I wasn't aware that those in the dot com business were all sandal-wearing young people with pierced noses.
Getting a job is not selling out (god, I hate that term) it is being an adult. Although I will have to be dragged into a regular job kicking and screaming, I have enough sense to know that if you want food, shelter, etc you have to have money. In order to have money you have to work. The "try to get by and go after your dream" is a good idea, which is unfortunately squished between the other comments.
Is it so wrong that they are "young people" that still have hope about their future? That think they can achieve what they want in life? Or should we tell them all to shut up and choose an office chair? And is it also wrong for there to be people who don't bitch and moan about having to work for a living? Should we just sit and listen to people whine about how they hate having a place to live and food to eat?

It's nice to be able to sit on your high horse and preach about the evils of being a dreamer or the evils of "working for the man" but, quite frankly, listening to that bullsh*t has gotten a little too old for me. If you want to inspire me to work then do that. Inspire me. Don't bitch like an old man on a porch. If you want to inspire me to not "sell-out" then tell me about how much happier I would be pursuing my dream. Don't use terms like "sell out" and "the man".

::jumps off of her own high horse in order to duck the flying debris::
posted by crushed at 3:36 PM on February 4, 2001

there are people who work at least one job sometimes two and still need welfare to help them out.

I'll second that. I work 50-60 hours a week and I'm eligible for food stamps and subsidized housing. If I didn't have the fortune of living rent-free for a while, I wouldn't be able to "go after my dream." And I have the best job in the world, as far as I'm concerned.

No flying debris from me, crushed.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 9:03 PM on February 4, 2001

Interesting, as of 9PM PST on Sunday Night, the story of Pyra's semi-disintegration has not been noticed by them or them or them or ESPECIALLY them.
posted by wendell at 10:00 PM on February 4, 2001

It's a bummer about what's happened with Blogger. I never actually used Blogger but I've been a Megnut, Evhead, Saturn, and Haughey weblog reader for a while so I dig these cats and what they’ve accomplished.

I have been using the Greymatter weblog program for the past week. It's awesome! It runs with CGI scripts off YOUR OWN server so there are none of the glitches Blogger users were experiencing. Which is why I never used Blogger in the first place.

So skip on over to Noah's and get . Greymatter.
posted by brook at 11:18 PM on February 4, 2001