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June 1, 2011 10:57 AM   Subscribe

The Silk Road, an anonymous way to buy and sell drugs With conversation previously of bitcoin you can now order anything under the sun.
posted by handbanana (160 comments total) 40 users marked this as a favorite

 
I guess it's time to buy bitcoin now.
posted by empath at 10:59 AM on June 1, 2011


(because the price will go up, not because i want to buy anything from there)
posted by empath at 11:00 AM on June 1, 2011 [2 favorites]


"... ordered the 100 micrograms of acid ... paid the seller 50 Bitcoins—untraceable digital currency—worth around $150. Four days later the drugs, sent from Canada, arrived at his house.

"It kind of felt like I was in the future," Mark said."
In the future, inflation and all.

Dude got ripped off.
posted by idiopath at 11:01 AM on June 1, 2011 [6 favorites]


I don't understand why bitcoin has not been shut down yet. Anonymous cash payments are the holy grail of criminals the world over.
posted by stbalbach at 11:03 AM on June 1, 2011


I was thinking the same thing. $150 for 10 tabs is insane.
posted by Evstar at 11:03 AM on June 1, 2011


stbalbach: The whole network can be run over Tor. Bitcoin isn't going anywhere, for better or for worse.
posted by elektrotechnicus at 11:05 AM on June 1, 2011


I was thinking the same thing. $150 for 10 tabs is insane

If its your only option, I think it's pretty reasonable -- is acid still going for $5 a hit? I always thought that was insanely cheap considering what it does.
posted by empath at 11:05 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


I give it one year before someone codes a virus that steals Bitcoins.
posted by TwelveTwo at 11:05 AM on June 1, 2011 [2 favorites]


Bitcoin will lead to an urgent choice between totalitarianism and chaos, and society (led, of course, by vested interests) will choose totalitarianism, because those with anything to lose fear chaos above all.

Looks like Ahmadinejad/Sarkozy/Gillard will get their vision of a "civilised", top-down internet sooner rather than later.
posted by acb at 11:06 AM on June 1, 2011


2 weeks ago I thought bitcoin was the dumbest thing in the world, now I'm thinking maybe I should quit my job to start an "Amazon of porn" that only accepts bitcoin.
posted by 2bucksplus at 11:07 AM on June 1, 2011


The Silk Road can be accessed here.
posted by elektrotechnicus at 11:07 AM on June 1, 2011 [4 favorites]


stbalbach: The whole network can be run over Tor. Bitcoin isn't going anywhere, for better or for worse.

Using Bitcoin can be criminalised, and a surveillance infrastructure can be imposed on the internet to enforce this. If this means reducing all computers to locked-down trusted clients and mandating the death penalty for jailbreaking, it is doable because, to a frightened public, it is less worse than the alternative.
posted by acb at 11:08 AM on June 1, 2011 [3 favorites]


I guess the variety on offer makes this interesting, but drugs by post isn't a new thing - you could order high quality skunk from a Canadian-run site for postage to the UK five, six years ago. IIRC, payment was via some dubious-looking escrow site, but quite a few folk I knew used it because paying a slight premium was worth it to avoid dealing with dealers, inconsistent product, &c..

The prices on the Silk Road seem very high, though. And anonymous currency isn't much use if the police open a package addressed to you full of coke and mushrooms.

And it looks like they're not relishing the attention:
The Silk Road is currently closed to new visitors. This will be reviewed on July 1st and the site will possibly be reopened. Sorry for the inconvenience :(
posted by jack_mo at 11:09 AM on June 1, 2011


I should point out that that link uses the Tor2Web gateway, which doesn't offer any of Tor's anonymity.
posted by elektrotechnicus at 11:09 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Bitcoin is designed not to be able to be shut down easily because it is not a single site. It's decentralized. Can't unpublish an algorithm or protocol. See also, DeCSS. It still has some network weaknesses.

I'm gonna go read Neuromancer again, because sometimes the future is freakin' awesome.
posted by adipocere at 11:10 AM on June 1, 2011 [6 favorites]


I was thinking the same thing. $150 for 10 tabs is insane

Educate thyself.

William Leonard Pickard
keywords:
Atlas-E Missile Silo
90% world LSD production
busted
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:10 AM on June 1, 2011 [18 favorites]


The prices on the Silk Road seem very high, though. And anonymous currency isn't much use if the police open a package addressed to you full of coke and mushrooms.

Obviously you'd have to get an anonymous PO box.
posted by empath at 11:10 AM on June 1, 2011


On not-previewing, looks like they've abandoned the URL in my bookmarks (research purposes!) for the one elektrotechnicus links to - nice use of a Tor hidden web thingy for super-duper-extra-anonymity.
posted by jack_mo at 11:12 AM on June 1, 2011


This sounds totally fucking awesome, but how long until law enforcement gets in on this?

Because having one's address attached to a transaction would make a person really nervous. I presume they're not delivering the drugs over TOR.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:12 AM on June 1, 2011


Bitcoin is designed not to be able to be shut down easily because it is not a single site. It's decentralized. Can't unpublish an algorithm or protocol. See also, DeCSS. It still has some network weaknesses.

If having the software on your computer is punishable by death, and all computers are subject to random inspections and trustworthiness checks, that counts as shutting it down. Yes, it sounds unbelievably harsh, but if you described the War On Drugs, with its massive collateral damage to civil liberties and innocent lives to someone from a few decades ago, that would sound pretty crazy too.

No matter how subtle a wizard may be, a dagger between the shoulder blades will surely cramp his style.
posted by acb at 11:12 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


@Civil_Disobedient

Wait, two life sentences? So who the two people he killed?
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 11:13 AM on June 1, 2011


"Obviously you'd have to get an anonymous PO box"

Is that even possible?
posted by dunkadunc at 11:13 AM on June 1, 2011


Obviously you'd have to get an anonymous PO box.

Or use a geocache-style drop point. Or a bitcoin courier service. Coming to a burbclave near you.
posted by elektrotechnicus at 11:13 AM on June 1, 2011 [21 favorites]


Getting the anonymous PO box, wouldn't that be nice to have?
posted by adipocere at 11:13 AM on June 1, 2011


Here's one thing I don't understand: What stops unscrupulous people from offering to sell drugs (or whatever) for bitcoins, then not following through? Nothing except web reputation?
posted by muddgirl at 11:14 AM on June 1, 2011


The thing is with the decentralization, digital currency it is practically anonymous.

Like the idea, but the prices are quite high. Quick, someone make an ebay bidding structure and I am down!

/still mad at customs for stealing a" package" of mine which btw wasn't technically illegal.....yet
posted by handbanana at 11:15 AM on June 1, 2011


Or use a geocache-style drop point.

Didn't these used to be called "drug dealers?"
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 11:15 AM on June 1, 2011 [9 favorites]


Wait, two life sentences? So who the two people he killed?

I believe they were Civil Rights and Common Sense.

Shit, sorry, that was the prosecution. Beats me, man!
posted by vorfeed at 11:15 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Educate thyself.

there's been a resurgence in availability in the last 5-10 years
posted by p3on at 11:15 AM on June 1, 2011


I mean, I imagine that a bitcoin escro service would destroy the anonymity and untraceability of the transaction, which is (as far as I can see) the only reason to use bitcoins in the first place.
posted by muddgirl at 11:15 AM on June 1, 2011


And as it says on there, you can "become a seller".

Wouldn't it be super-duper easy for Officer Friendly to click on that link and register, too?
posted by dunkadunc at 11:16 AM on June 1, 2011


muddgirl: Yup. In BC circles there is much web of trust-related discussion.
posted by elektrotechnicus at 11:16 AM on June 1, 2011


Well, it's not so underground NOW, is it???

This is why we can't have nice things like quality lsd.
posted by hippybear at 11:16 AM on June 1, 2011 [12 favorites]


There is nothing so cool that it cannot be ruined by Gawker Media.
posted by mobunited at 11:17 AM on June 1, 2011 [19 favorites]


If I am going to be ordering illegal substances with an anonymous decentralized currency over a onion routing network I want something cool, not LSD. Human pituitary extract, maybe some vat grown organs. I guess I would settle for some stem cells, or some new corneas.
posted by Ad hominem at 11:17 AM on June 1, 2011 [5 favorites]


'Cause LSD is so hard to find.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:18 AM on June 1, 2011


mudgirl: Here is one of several bitcoin escrow services.

handbanana: Here is one of several bitcoin auction sites.
posted by elektrotechnicus at 11:18 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Well, consider the convenience and safety factor. Instead of going to a bad part of town to make a potentially risky deal, you get to buy drugs in the comfort of your home.

Of course, you could get busted if you order with a police honeypot account. What's to stop the police from juggling around a few dozen bitcoins between a few faux dealer and client accounts on silk road to build up a phony high rep account and then get a list of drug users' addresses?
posted by mccarty.tim at 11:19 AM on June 1, 2011


Dunkadunc,

Most of what I've been told is that it isn't LSD but analogues... which I have never wanted.

Only been offered real 'cid once but didn't have the $10 granted he offered it on credit and these guys didn't fuck around when it came to knowing there substances.
posted by handbanana at 11:20 AM on June 1, 2011


Obviously you'd have to get an anonymous PO box.

Which wouldn't do you much good if the package was intercepted and the cops are waiting at the PO Box.

I suppose you could hire a courier anonymously to check the anonymous PO Box on your behalf and take the package to a prearranged dead drop (which you observe for 72 hours to ensure it hasn't been compromised), at which point your drugs are costing quadruple and you're basically playing loony spy games for no good reason.

In fact, if you're paranoid enough to be using this service and think it's a good idea, you probably ought to lay off the drugs for a bit.
posted by jack_mo at 11:21 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


'Cause LSD is so hard to find.

Depends where you are. It is quite hard in the UK, I understand.
posted by jaduncan at 11:21 AM on June 1, 2011


On point elektrotechnius!

I don't trust anything through customs these days.
posted by handbanana at 11:22 AM on June 1, 2011


If I am going to be ordering illegal substances with an anonymous decentralized currency over a onion routing network I want something cool, not LSD. Human pituitary extract, maybe some vat grown organs.

Shit, that's a good idea. One whiff of that stuff will turn you into something out of a goddamn medical encyclopedia. Your head will swell up like a watermelon ... you'll gain about a hundred pounds in two hours ... grow claws ... bleeding warts ... and then you notice about six huge hairy tits swelling up on your back. You'll go blind, your body will turn to wax; they'll have to put you in a wheelbarrow. And when you scream for help, you'll sound like a raccoon. Man, I'll try just about anything, but I'd never in hell touch a pineal gland.

Any listings for Adrenochrome?
posted by adipocere at 11:22 AM on June 1, 2011 [8 favorites]


Here is one of several bitcoin escrow services.

Digital escrow services only protects the buyer, not the seller. What happens when I kindheartedly offer to sell my extra LSD tablets through this escrow service, send the tablets in good faith, and the buyer claims not to have received them?

Of course, this happens in eBay transactions and the like, but eBay tracks problem buyers as well as sellers.
posted by muddgirl at 11:23 AM on June 1, 2011


Which wouldn't do you much good if the package was intercepted and the cops are waiting at the PO Box.

Just let it sit there a month -- you think they're going to do 24/7 surveillance for a month to catch someone buying $100 worth of drugs?
posted by empath at 11:23 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]




Okay, I give.. How do you even get the sub-links on the Silk Road page to work? I keep getting a "can't find the server" error.

Do I need to be using a browser other than Safari? Do I need a plug-in? Please hope me!

posted by hippybear at 11:24 AM on June 1, 2011


You need Tor.
posted by empath at 11:25 AM on June 1, 2011


hippybear: Follow these instructions to install Tor and the TorButton extension for Firefox. It's considerably quicker than using Tor2Web, though Tor is inherently a bit sluggish.
posted by elektrotechnicus at 11:26 AM on June 1, 2011 [2 favorites]


The fervor around Bitcoin is all of the same flavor as everyone losing their shit over the iPhone a few years back. Only a third of the world's population has internet access, people. Even less have their own computer. This is fated to be like EVE currency, yet another digital commodity fated to be traded solely by the wealthy countries. It will, and is already functioning as another facet of the financial market. And yes, it may eventually find its place in the world as a way to speculate on criminal and "cybercrime" activity, and that would certainly be a big win for the status quo. So, yeah, you'll have your bitcoin backed dollar, but it will be as it is now, not exclusively backed by anything.

So, do not be alarmed: this is not the future. You will know the future is here because it will not be a continuation and repetition of mids-80s and late-90s phantasms with ever shittier economic and political conditions. That feeling you are feeling right now is merely the structure of the world finding new ways to repeat itself.
posted by TwelveTwo at 11:28 AM on June 1, 2011 [4 favorites]


Thanks. I'll investigate that. Maybe this will be the use for my Firefox install which I've been looking for. I never use it otherwise.
posted by hippybear at 11:28 AM on June 1, 2011


empath: "Just let it sit there a month -- you think they're going to do 24/7 surveillance for a month to catch someone buying $100 worth of drugs?"

I knew a guy who was out walking through the woods when he ran into another guy, who turned out to be a cop.

They were paying him full wage to sit out in the woods and watch two fucking plants until their owner turned up.

Cops will go to every length possible to cause other people misery. At least when they can use it to justify them getting paid.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:30 AM on June 1, 2011 [13 favorites]


hippybear: "Thanks. I'll investigate that. Maybe this will be the use for my Firefox install which I've been looking for. I never use it otherwise"

Just a heads up, jack_mo claims above that "The Silk Road is currently closed to new visitors. This will be reviewed on July 1st and the site will possibly be reopened. Sorry for the inconvenience"
posted by sharkfu at 11:30 AM on June 1, 2011


Gawker ruins everything.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:32 AM on June 1, 2011 [6 favorites]



Obviously you'd have to get an anonymous PO box.

Which wouldn't do you much good if the package was intercepted and the cops are waiting at the PO Box.


Or you have it delivered to a random stranger's house. Hopefully they don't have any dogs.
posted by phearlez at 11:33 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Anonymous cash payments are the holy grail of criminals the world over.

But anonymous cash payments already exist, in the form of paper money. Bitcoin is an attempt to make something similar in the digital world, since naive implementations of digital money generally rely on a credit-card like system of traceable accounts. The general concept of owning a token that can be exchanged as currency without requiring tracking of each individual transaction is by no means a new thing.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:35 AM on June 1, 2011


Bitcoin will lead to an urgent choice between totalitarianism and chaos

No, it won't. Bitcoin isn't going to cause any urgent choice about anything. You want to see what the internet is going to do to totalitarian states, look at China and the Middle East. In cases like Tunisia, where the regime was holding on by the skin of its teeth anyway, it can be the thing that pushes it over. But it wasn't a huge factor in Egypt, Syria and Libya don't seem to be working out all that well, and China seems to have its situation well in hand.

The revolution will not be blogged, because honestly, there isn't going to be one.

Anonymous cash payments are the holy grail of criminals the world over.

burnmp3s is right: this is redundant. All cash payments are essentially anonymous. Bitcoin is an attempt to create an anonymous credit payment, which, because it is based fundamentally on credit, is a contradiction in terms.
posted by valkyryn at 11:38 AM on June 1, 2011


The prices are pretty gougey for certain but what you're paying for here is not the acid, so much; you're paying for the convenience of it. Couple mouse clicks, drugs get delivered to you. For someone who, say, just moved to a new city, that's pretty excellent.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:38 AM on June 1, 2011


Okay, I give.. How do you even get the sub-links on the Silk Road page to work? I keep getting a "can't find the server" error.
If you just want to browse a few pages to see what's available, you can keep changing the .onion address to .tor2web.com. That method would get old fast, but it works for the curious.
posted by Gordafarin at 11:39 AM on June 1, 2011


The fervor around Bitcoin is all of the same flavor as everyone losing their shit over the iPhone a few years back

I remember that! the iPhone! Ha. Amazing how it just faded into obscurity.
posted by quin at 11:40 AM on June 1, 2011 [15 favorites]


The fervor around Bitcoin is all of the same flavor as everyone losing their shit over the iPhone a few years back. Only a third of the world's population has internet access, people. Even less have their own computer.

I think perhaps the iPhone is a bad example of whatever you're trying to prove. The iPhone really did change the way customers interact with their phones, and marginalized the importance of the cellphone carriers forever (short-term it was great for AT&T, longterm it will prove disastrous). The iPhone didn't do this alone but it was part of a wave that includes Android and the iPad (and hopefully soon Windows Phone and Skype). Things really are changing quickly. Bitcoin would be wildly successful if it "only" had the success the iPhone has so far to date, and the possibility of anonymous, non-Governmental currency is virtually limitless.
posted by 2bucksplus at 11:40 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


This stuff has been all over the internet for years and years and years.
posted by turkeyphant at 11:41 AM on June 1, 2011


The iPhone changed nothing except minor quibbling points about who gets what in regards to cellphone carriers. Oooh, now I pay this guy and not that guy.

Whatever.

With this Bitcoin, we'll see the same. That is, everything will be the same, but there will just be more of it.
posted by TwelveTwo at 11:44 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


I like the idea that [other] people can buy drugs on the internet like this, but In the words of Hobbes the tiger, "You try it and I'll watch."
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 11:45 AM on June 1, 2011 [4 favorites]


The Steven Brust quote is actually "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style," from Jhereg. It needs that extra layer of snark.
posted by yeolcoatl at 11:48 AM on June 1, 2011


Let's see. In this thread we have these words:

Ahmadinejad
missile
surveillance

Do you suppose that the NSA is recording the ISP address of every single person who visits this page?

Speaking of HST, he once wrote that the only two things he never tried to do with drugs are sell them or carry them across a border. Were he with us today, I think he might add using this service as a third.
posted by Trurl at 11:48 AM on June 1, 2011


Follow these instructions to install Tor and the TorButton extension for Firefox.

FYI...TorButton isn't compatible with Firefox 4. At least not the version for Intel/Mac.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:51 AM on June 1, 2011


Do you suppose that the NSA is recording the ISP address of every single person who visits this page?

Based on what Mark Klein found, I'm sure they record everything possible all the time.
posted by hippybear at 11:53 AM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Speaking of HST, he once wrote that the only two things he never tried to do with drugs are sell them or carry them across a border.

Truman was a doper? ;>
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:01 PM on June 1, 2011 [3 favorites]


Good luck setting up that "anonymous po box".

I like all the shocked comments to the article.
"drugs?!? Through the MAIL?! How is that POSSIBLE?!"
I get like 2 pieces of mail a day and I'm on the low end of the spectrum I'm sure. I bet the USPS delivers a billion pieces of mail a day. If your package doesn't reek of weed and have pot leaves drawn all over with "cheech chong 420 kind lane" as the return address, it's gonna get through.
posted by youthenrage at 12:07 PM on June 1, 2011 [2 favorites]


There's a frequently-cited "Law" regarding alternative currencies (and any other sort of specie or scrip) that they aren't "real" currencies until you can buy drugs with them.

I thought that it'd take Bitcoin longer to get to this point, honestly. If this sticks around it's pretty impressive.

The physical transportation of the product seems like a weakpoint, though. My guess is that Customs and the DEA (or the USPS Inspectors) will catch onto schemes like this pretty quickly and shut them down by following a few of the packages to their destinations and arresting the buyers. It won't take more than a few high-profile busts, especially if they're of the SWAT team beat-the-shit-out-of-everyone-and-kill-all-the-pets type, before people become afraid to use such a service.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:11 PM on June 1, 2011


"'Cause LSD is so hard to find."

Acid has been goddamned impossible for me to find. I can get E all day long, but acid's nowhere near me (apparently), and my brief foray into searching for research chemicals eventually seemed like way, way too much effort for something of dubious quality anyway.
posted by klangklangston at 12:11 PM on June 1, 2011


I remember HST accidentally taking a ball of black tar heroin into some country where such a thing was a Tres Bad Idea.
posted by angrycat at 12:15 PM on June 1, 2011


Do you suppose that the NSA is recording the ISP address of every single person who visits this page?

I bet they've already gotten a hot chick to write a VB Script EXE to track our geospots, too.
posted by odinsdream at 12:19 PM on June 1, 2011 [3 favorites]


Only a third of the world's population has internet access, people. Even less have their own computer. This is fated to be like EVE currency, yet another digital commodity fated to be traded solely by the wealthy countries.

And meanwhile, in developing countries, they have sophisticated mobile microfinance systems we can only dream of!

M-PESA is spreading across Africa, IMPS is big in India. You can make payments in shops, get your loan from Kiva, lend your friend some money, pay bills, whatever, all via SMS or a simple app.

Admittedly M-PESA suffered a bit of a hiccup in Afghanistan - the government used it to pay police wages, only to discover 10% of the force were 'ghost officers' (ie, mobile numbers with no person attached).

No mining for microcoins with specially-rigged GPUs, just an improvement in the lives of of folk living in countries with crappy infrastrcture, powered by SMS and crap 'phones. This strikes me as way cooler than bitcoin, but for some reason you don't see thirty-seven posts a day on Hacker News about it.
posted by jack_mo at 12:27 PM on June 1, 2011 [13 favorites]


I bet the USPS delivers a billion pieces of mail a day.

About half a billion, looks like.
posted by Trurl at 12:29 PM on June 1, 2011


Wait, two life sentences?

I know, it's fucking criminal.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:29 PM on June 1, 2011


"'Cause LSD is so hard to find.

Depends where you are. It is quite hard in the UK, I understand."
posted by jaduncan


This is true to the best of my knowledge. Mainly pops up at festivals live Glastonbury and V.

" "... ordered the 100 micrograms of acid ... paid the seller 50 Bitcoins—untraceable digital currency—worth around $150. Four days later the drugs, sent from Canada, arrived at his house.

Dude got ripped off."
posted by idiopath

"I was thinking the same thing. $150 for 10 tabs is insane."
posted by Evstar at 7:03 PM


Ripped off big time: 100 mikes is about 1 good tab of Acid. Jeez, bitcoin or not, forget it.
posted by marienbad at 12:30 PM on June 1, 2011 [3 favorites]


Do you suppose that the NSA is recording the ISP address of every single person who visits this page?

No, they're recording the realtime clickstream of every person on the internet. So relax, they're not just watch you read this, they're watching everything you read!
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:30 PM on June 1, 2011


Ooh, I found a way to make that stuff cool - M-PESA's infrastructure runs on Rackspace. The money's in the cloud!
posted by jack_mo at 12:30 PM on June 1, 2011


Whether you're a hopeful consumer or just taking a curious peek, I highly recommend that you do not use Tor2Web to do it. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but a blatantly illegal market like Silk Road uses onion routing for a reason and removing that layer of protection from yourself (even for innocent purposes) seems extraordinarily foolish to me.
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 12:31 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Only a third of the world's population has internet access, people. Even less have their own computer.

True, but all you need is a critical mass of people to dictate the price and governments are broke. Do you know what it would take for municipalities to fight sth like bitcoin? They can barely pay for basic services. This is a very big deal. Maybe not bitcoin, but the idea in itself.

Sometimes I think we take nation-states for granted. Something ... different might be on the horizon.
posted by Silo004 at 12:32 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


In my neck of the woods $150 for 10 is pretty overpriced. Going rate here is about $9 a hit.

This seems like a nifty web site, but I think the door-to-door salesmen are what I'd base my drug entrepreneurialism on. Call a phone number, have a guy from a "professional" service show up on your doorstep. It seems a little less risky, and there's something nice about seeing the product before you purchase.
posted by Rory Marinich at 12:32 PM on June 1, 2011


I get like 2 pieces of mail a day and I'm on the low end of the spectrum I'm sure. I bet the USPS delivers a billion pieces of mail a day. If your package doesn't reek of weed and have pot leaves drawn all over with "cheech chong 420 kind lane" as the return address, it's gonna get through.

I stuffed boxes in trucks for UPS for a while, and I can tell you for certain that "doesn't reek of weed" is not a necessary prerequisite for successful delivery.
posted by mrgoat at 12:32 PM on June 1, 2011 [6 favorites]


This seems like a nifty web site, but I think the door-to-door salesmen are what I'd base my drug entrepreneurialism on. Call a phone number, have a guy from a "professional" service show up on your doorstep. It seems a little less risky, and there's something nice about seeing the product before you purchase.

That's so 1996.
posted by Silo004 at 12:34 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Then, for once, I'm glad it's 1996 still in Chicago.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:37 PM on June 1, 2011


Then, for once, I'm glad it's 1996 still in Chicago.

Well, I am not. Online drug sales would make drug distribution much safer and eventually decrease the price tremendously -- maybe not the price that you pay, but definitely the cost to society. Drug dealers in Chicago would have to compete on product alone and not for corners, ergo less violence, better drugs.
posted by Silo004 at 12:42 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


This seems like a nifty web site, but I think the door-to-door salesmen are what I'd base my drug entrepreneurialism on.

Avon (Barksdale) Calling?
posted by formless at 12:43 PM on June 1, 2011 [7 favorites]


Drug dealers in Chicago would have to compete on product alone and not for corners, ergo less violence, better drugs.

Stringer already tried that!
posted by vidur at 12:47 PM on June 1, 2011 [9 favorites]


If someone were going to speculate in bitcoins, how would one hedge that?
posted by empath at 12:54 PM on June 1, 2011


Ripped off big time: 100 mikes is about 1 good tab of Acid. Jeez, bitcoin or not, forget it.

You young whippersnappers. Back in my day, 500 mikes was an average dose. Jeez, I don't know what we were thinking.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:05 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Not having played with acid, I really don't have much of a frame of reference, assuming that you are taking it all at once at the outset, what is the difference between 500 and 100 micrograms? Longer trip? More trippy trip?
posted by quin at 1:10 PM on June 1, 2011


"This seems like a nifty web site, but I think the door-to-door salesmen are what I'd base my drug entrepreneurialism on. Call a phone number, have a guy from a "professional" service show up on your doorstep. It seems a little less risky, and there's something nice about seeing the product before you purchase."

Dude, aren't you in New York? That's how all the weed I ever bought there worked.

Whereas here in LA, we just have all the "collectives," which only deal pot.
posted by klangklangston at 1:11 PM on June 1, 2011


Not having played with acid, I really don't have much of a frame of reference, assuming that you are taking it all at once at the outset, what is the difference between 500 and 100 micrograms? Longer trip? More trippy trip?

More trippy. LSD lasts about the same amount of time no matter when you take it, and you can't re-dose on it right away because of how it uses up your brain chemistry to create its effect. The more you take the stronger the trip.

My best trips have been on around 4 drops of nice liquid. No idea what that dose is... 1 drop is too little -- the colors get bright and I get giggly, that's it... 6 drops is, for me, too much... Unless I'm going to really withdraw and be non-functional and inwardly focussed for the climb up and into the peak, I just find it unpleasant. 4 drops... the perfect blend of the experience from the joy to the giggles to the visuals to the fascination to the great white light of the universe.
posted by hippybear at 1:16 PM on June 1, 2011


Not having played with acid, I really don't have much of a frame of reference, assuming that you are taking it all at once at the outset, what is the difference between 500 and 100 micrograms? Longer trip? More trippy trip?

Once you get to the point of complete ego death, the complete annihilation of time and space, etc, questions like that don't really make much sense.
posted by empath at 1:17 PM on June 1, 2011 [4 favorites]


the perfect blend of the experience from the joy to the giggles to the visuals to the fascination to the great white light of the universe.

See, this is why I never tried acid. Because I was fairly certain I'd get none of the white light of the universe, and too much of the complete ego death.

And while I'm ok with ego-death when sober, dealing with it while being high just seemed like a recipe for a really bad trip. (plus my head is so full of spooky shit, the last thing I ever wanted to do was give it an avenue and a soapbox for my attention.)

Now I'm a little too old to pick up that particular form of recreation, but it still fascinates me as an observer.
posted by quin at 1:24 PM on June 1, 2011


Because I was fairly certain I'd get none of the white light of the universe, and too much of the complete ego death.

It's the same thing.
posted by empath at 1:26 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


quin: "And while I'm ok with ego-death when sober, dealing with it while being high just seemed like a recipe for a really bad trip."

If you achieve ego death while sober, well, you've saved yourself a lot of money and research. The drugs are already in your head.

Also, empath gettin' all triplosophy. I like this empath.
posted by gilrain at 1:29 PM on June 1, 2011


How many bitcoins to buy a flying car?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:30 PM on June 1, 2011


21 million and 1 bitcoins.
posted by TwelveTwo at 1:37 PM on June 1, 2011 [3 favorites]


It's the same thing.

And clearly I have no idea what I'm talking about. I think I was looking for the term "depersonalization" and latched on to "ego-death" in my bumbling grasping of terms.

posted by quin at 1:47 PM on June 1, 2011


Not having played with acid, I really don't have much of a frame of reference, assuming that you are taking it all at once at the outset, what is the difference between 500 and 100 micrograms? Longer trip? More trippy trip?

Hmmm... 50 Bitcoins on the newcomer!
posted by WinnipegDragon at 1:55 PM on June 1, 2011 [4 favorites]


30 micrograms is our JND, street acid in the 60s was around 300 and up to even a 1000 mircograms per tab, it has been dropping ever since then to the point where now the average tab is about 30, but street acid is considered unreliable and the potency can vary. In otherwords, if you want the strength of acid the Beatles etc, were taking you'll likely need 10 hits, and, even with inflation, i wouldn't pay much more than $5 per 30 micrograms.
posted by Shit Parade at 2:07 PM on June 1, 2011


Just to add, it is incredibly difficult to OD on acid, our LD 50 rate is in the range of .05 grams per kilogram weight, and micrograms are 1/millionth of a gram. Oddly, LSD is one of most potent and safest substances we know.
posted by Shit Parade at 2:09 PM on June 1, 2011


Just to add, it is incredibly difficult to OD on acid, our LD 50 rate is in the range of .05 grams per kilogram weight, and micrograms are 1/millionth of a gram.

I think with LSD the problem isn't taking so much it's toxic... it's taking so much you've melted your cerebral cortex.
posted by hippybear at 2:12 PM on June 1, 2011 [3 favorites]


quin: "my head is so full of spooky shit, the last thing I ever wanted to do was give it an avenue and a soapbox for my attention"

I have seen all kind of messed up stuff (in person and in media) and hallucinogens never made dwell on any of it. I'm more likely to trip out about the mathematics of waveforms, visualizing consciousness and registration vs. perception or the colors on a map on the wall rather than the fact that I am made of meat. Maybe I got lucky. I guess everyone has a bad trip eventually but I quit while I was ahead I guess. YMMV.
posted by idiopath at 2:17 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


Can you set up an anonymous P.O. box? I looked into it once when I lived in a shitty neighborhood and didn't trust my mailbox, and they required 2 forms of ID.
posted by codacorolla at 2:22 PM on June 1, 2011


Quin, as someone with a headful of bad wiring, I understand the hesitancy, but I was clued in to the onset (finally) of a non-too-distant trip by realizing that I was fascinated with the way the mini beach ball in my hand compressed as I pushed it into the water, and had begun to build equations as to the buoyancy of said ball as a function of depth. Sure enough, about five minutes later came the visuals.

Idiopath is right; there's a certain mathiness to some hallucinogens.
posted by adipocere at 2:27 PM on June 1, 2011 [3 favorites]


What you'd probably want for this is a mail forwarding service. Anyone can run these. They'll just keep your mail on their porch or something, and maybe send it to you.

At that point you're saddling someone else with the risk of getting SWATted. I hope you're proud!
posted by LogicalDash at 2:29 PM on June 1, 2011


adipocere: "there's a certain mathiness to some hallucinogens"

And then I consider the fact that many people claim to be afraid of mathematics. They say that when they see math their eyes glaze over and the symbols turn into gibberish. Maybe the drugs just accentuate your existing relationship to the mathematical?(sarcasm)
posted by idiopath at 2:43 PM on June 1, 2011


there's a certain mathiness to some hallucinogens

Meh. I don't even own a hallucinator. Everything on it is derivative.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:45 PM on June 1, 2011 [2 favorites]


"The state is the primary source of violence, oppression, theft and all forms of coercion," Silk Road wrote to us. "Stop funding the state with your tax dollars and direct your productive energies into the black market."

Also, regarding the article, I wonder how these libertarian ubermensch square this statement with the fact that their service relies on an Internet developed by the state, and a postal service run by the state.
posted by codacorolla at 2:53 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


What a fascinating website, thanks! It's not a surprise that there's Internet trade in narcotics, but it does surprise me a bit that there's Tor-only websites.

BitCoin is not particularly anonymous, despite the hype. The crypto protocol requires every single transaction be published publically. The receiver and sender identities are pseudonyms, but they're semi-persistent so it's possible to trace money flowing through the BitCoin network and connect up the big traders. It's way more anonymous than a credit card, of course, but with some traffic analysis effort I think you could identify sellers in the Silk Road market.

Silk Road knows this weakness and says "Silk Road employs a built-in tumbler that mixes all incoming bitcoins through a series of dummy transactions before they ever leave". Ie: they're laundering BitCoins.
posted by Nelson at 3:00 PM on June 1, 2011 [5 favorites]


Stop funding the state with your tax dollars and direct your productive energies into the black market.

The IRS requires you to pay taxes on black market earnings, even (IANATL) if they are in some secondary commodity like bitcoins.

In other words, if you're going to be a tax dodger might as well do it in dollars.
posted by muddgirl at 3:01 PM on June 1, 2011


and a postal service run by the state.

Why not DHL?
posted by empath at 3:05 PM on June 1, 2011


On the subject of mail order, I have a friend who orders marijuana online and has it mailed to their house because they are an adult who doesn't want to manage awkward dealer relationships or dangerous street markets. When my friend wants to order, they just log on to their official bank website, deposit some money into a previously arranged account, and then check the mail 72-ish hours later.

Once, last Christmas, the online vendor was subject to a police bust. (They sent out a great customer service email explaining the delay in order fulfillment.) My friend was a little worried about hearing from the cops, but no one ever bothered them and six weeks later the site was back online and shipping as always.

It's interesting to note, though, that this site in particular won't ship to third world countries with horrible mail losses... or the United States.
posted by jess at 3:07 PM on June 1, 2011


What if I trade using dead mice as currency? Would the federal government require me to fork over 5 of every 100 dead mice I earn?

What if I trade my goods and services for something intangible like, say, 40 Internets per hour?
posted by dunkadunc at 3:09 PM on June 1, 2011


Why not DHL?

Because USPS is the only carrier in the US willing to transport live animals. Obviously.

[Note: This is a true statement.]
posted by stet at 3:11 PM on June 1, 2011


Hi everyone, Silk Road is into it's third week after launch and I am very pleased with the results. There are several sellers and buyers finding mutually agreeable prices, and as of today, 28 transactions have been made! For those who don't know, Silk Road is an anonymous online market. Of course, it is in its infant stages and I have many ideas about where to go with it. But I am turning to you, the community, to give me your input and to have a say in what direction it takes.

silkroad, March 1, 2011, Bitcoin forums

There's a lot more fascinating stuff in a search for [silk road bitcoin] before May 30.
posted by Nelson at 3:11 PM on June 1, 2011 [2 favorites]


And anonymous currency isn't much use if the police open a package addressed to you full of coke and mushrooms.


This, the postal service remains the weakest link here. It's getting easier and easier to detect substances and it becomes a federal crime involving interstate trafficking or even international. Fedex and other couriers are known to be *more likely* to bust you, or at least they were 20 years ago when this was a relevant issue in my life.
posted by Maias at 3:42 PM on June 1, 2011


Well, the nice thing about shipping acid is that it's basically imperceptible from the outside — it's only known return addresses that would scotch you.
posted by klangklangston at 3:49 PM on June 1, 2011


They're making this shit sound all high-tech, but ultimately the drug purveyors will be busted using plain old fashioned policework. I mean, they gotta get the stuff to you, right? Oh, they're using the mail? Ha. Ahahaha. Ahahahahaha. Enjoy your felony charges.

And it's too bad, too. Haven't seen any interesting drugs since the early-2000s research chemicals boom. Damn you, Gawker, for making a big deal out of this.
posted by Afroblanco at 3:58 PM on June 1, 2011


Why not DHL?

Because DHL stopped doing shipments within the US years ago and only does international shipments in and out of the states now?
posted by hippybear at 3:58 PM on June 1, 2011


empath writes "Just let it sit there a month -- you think they're going to do 24/7 surveillance for a month to catch someone buying $100 worth of drugs?"

One cop minimum wage contractor can watch every PO box in town via camera. Heck a simple switch wired into the door and a little logic hooked up to dispatch could mean monitoring the PO box only when it's opened.

What you'd probably want for this is a mail forwarding service. Anyone can run these. They'll just keep your mail on their porch or something, and maybe send it to you. "At that point you're saddling someone else with the risk of getting SWATted. I hope you're proud!"

Make sure they are off shore so they can't get subpoenaed. After all the service has to keep track of what goes where or it won't work.

It seems that cops don't actually care much though. See for example the Cartoon Network which operated for years before being busted and I don't recall any buyers being busted.
posted by Mitheral at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


One cop minimum wage contractor can watch every PO box in town via camera.

Not all PO Boxes are in Post Offices. There are many businesses which receive mail on behalf of customers under the auspices of a postal box. Even the tiny town I live in has both a very active Post Office AND one of these secondary "receive mail on my behalf" places.
posted by hippybear at 4:22 PM on June 1, 2011


It does seem incredibly easy to break this up. As soon as you get enough arrests from honeypots within the system then you break trust in the system.

On the one hand the trade here (a few people getting small shipments of acid, weed, and heroin at grossly inflated prices) are small potatoes, but I also feel like the DEA isn't going to be happy about a circumvention of its power that goes unchecked.

Hopefully as time goes on, and people who have a moral qualm against casual drug use begin to die, and minority populations who've been targeted in larger numbers by the idiotic drug war, begin to overtake the majority of the population we'll see more sensible drug laws come to pass, and there won't be a need for paranoia when you buy drugs and don't harm another person in using them.
posted by codacorolla at 4:25 PM on June 1, 2011 [2 favorites]


Not all PO Boxes are in Post Offices. There are many businesses which receive mail on behalf of customers under the auspices of a postal box. Even the tiny town I live in has both a very active Post Office AND one of these secondary "receive mail on my behalf" places.

Those places still require a lot of ID, and can be subpoenaed, right? I was under the impression that there isn't such a thing as a truly anonymous PO box, but I might be wrong, and would be interested to know if such a thing exists.
posted by codacorolla at 4:26 PM on June 1, 2011


Then, for once, I'm glad it's 1996 still in Chicago.

The dream of the 90s is alive in ... Chicago.
posted by codswallop at 4:29 PM on June 1, 2011 [3 favorites]


The mailbox in front of an unoccupied house?

Serious face: I am not suggesting anybody do this.
posted by dunkadunc at 4:30 PM on June 1, 2011


I just want to thank this thread for teaching me the word "honeypot", which is an absolutely lovely word.
posted by NoraReed at 4:59 PM on June 1, 2011


dunkadunc writes "The mailbox in front of an unoccupied house?"

While the risk of prosecution is low, technically you are tampering with the mail by removing items from a mailbox that doesn't belong to you. A serious offence on it's own. And if a package is being watched the cops can watch it at your unoccupied house as easily as your own house.
posted by Mitheral at 5:20 PM on June 1, 2011


The mailbox in front of an unoccupied house?

In San Antonio at least, the postal worker generally will not deliver mail to an unoccupied house (unless you mean someone that is, like, on vacation). I assume this is the same everywhere.
posted by muddgirl at 5:55 PM on June 1, 2011


Everywhere serviced by the USPS, that is.
posted by muddgirl at 5:56 PM on June 1, 2011


I have my mail delivered to the past. It's the only way to be sure.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:06 PM on June 1, 2011


Sometimes I think we take nation-states for granted. Something ... different might be on the horizon.
posted by Silo004 at 6:32 AM on June 2 [+] [!]

Oh come now, people have been saying that with the same semi-mystical tone for far too long.

I think anyone foolhardy enough to use this deserves whatever comes their way.
posted by oxford blue at 6:10 PM on June 1, 2011


Like dope?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:14 PM on June 1, 2011 [2 favorites]


Or the sledgehammer of lady justice, riding on her silver 4x4.
posted by oxford blue at 6:16 PM on June 1, 2011


BitCoin -- or some other decentralized, alternative, nominally anonymous digital currency-- would be huge...

which is why it will be crushed or neutered.
posted by darth_tedious at 6:23 PM on June 1, 2011


which is why it will be crushed or neutered.

Yeah, the whole terrorism thing is getting old. Time to move on to spreading fear about money laundering, one of the least appreciated Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse.

Oh, who am I kidding. It will be, "bitcoin money laundering is financing terrorism!"
posted by formless at 7:33 PM on June 1, 2011 [1 favorite]


100 micrograms is one (smallish) dose, FYI.
posted by snofoam at 8:52 PM on June 1, 2011


Uh, last I checked you could just pay with cash, right? Or is this some kind of spot market.
BitCoin -- or some other decentralized, alternative, nominally anonymous digital currency-- would be huge...
The whole point of BitCoin, in fact, why it works is that it's not anonymous Every transaction can be unwound and traced to the original wallet. It could take some work to match the wallet to a person, but not impossible.
posted by delmoi at 12:29 AM on June 2, 2011


It's getting easier and easier to detect substances and it becomes a federal crime involving interstate trafficking or even international.
I suppose MRI could be used to detect something the molecular signature, but wouldn't anything metallic prevent that?

It seems like a small amount, with half an inch of paper on both sides and something metallic, plus plastic to prevent anything that could be smelled could work. Also, you could use your own x-ray machine to make sure it didn't look too suspicious.
posted by delmoi at 12:38 AM on June 2, 2011


It's getting easier and easier to detect substances and it becomes a federal crime involving interstate trafficking or even international.

LSD is:
a) so active that a dose is tiny, which means that the sensitivity of the detector has to be insane
b) A giant organic molecule so no evaporation = no way to detect it at a distance
posted by atrazine at 1:56 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]


This is the way of the future (man). I like it for the digital freedom perspective and the civil disobedience possibilities, for the record. :P
posted by Dillonlikescookies at 8:15 AM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]


>The whole point of BitCoin, in fact, why it works is that it's not anonymous Every transaction can be unwound and traced to the original wallet.

Hence "nominally".

Really, though, I disagree that the point of BitCoin is that it is not anonymous; I believe that whatever apparent, ostensible, possibly illusory anonymity it possesses stands as one of its strongest selling points, from the view of the user.

On the other hand, that it is not perfectly anonymous, to a sufficiently interested governing body, may explain why it hasn't yet been extinguished. If a transaction were deemed by The Powers That Be to sufficiently important, no doubt it would become transparent in very short order.

Should a *more* truly anonymous, decentralized, and yet somehow accountable-to-its-users, my-widget-purchase-does-indeed-bring-me-a-widget system emerge, that currency would likely be yet more popular than BitCoin.

Expect digital anonymity and digital oversight to become an increasingly noisy and public arms race.

Ultimately, it seems unrealistic to definitively declare some process as truly anonymous... because any such anonymity is pretty much provisional, an index of how much The Man isn't motivated to track you down, at a particular moment.
posted by darth_tedious at 9:38 AM on June 2, 2011


Those places still require a lot of ID, and can be subpoenaed, right? I was under the impression that there isn't such a thing as a truly anonymous PO box, but I might be wrong, and would be interested to know if such a thing exists.

Private mail box businesses in the US are called Commercial Mail-Receiving Agencies (CMRAs) & are regulated by the Post Office. They've required two forms of ID for over a decade now. For a good overview of the subject you can read this Cato Institute white paper, The U.S. Postal Service War on Private Mailboxes and Privacy Rights (PDF).
posted by scalefree at 2:48 PM on June 2, 2011


Holy shit when did I start living in a Bruce Sterling novel.
posted by egypturnash at 4:36 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]


Bitcoin is as untraceable as a cautious person needs it to be. If I take an amount of funds, splitting and remerging them over 10 iterations, how exactly would anybody pin everything that happens between my receipt and expenditure of those funds on me? How about 100 iterations? There is no limit to the number of addresses you can assign yourself. If you don't publicise your ownership of any of those addresses on forums or email signatures, it would be up to the payer or payee to identify you and only if they have real identifying information about you.

Silk Road won't work for people setting up honeytraps because they'll need to establish a track record and garner positive feedback. The system can be further reinforced with a GPG web of trust which will prevent people setting up a bunch of dupes that all pat each other on the back boosting their feedback. A web of trust shows a honeytrap network as an island without any connections to the larger network and that will reinforce its isolation.

I don't know what sort of charges can be laid on someone whose house or business happens to get a delivery of contraband. Yes, I know SWAT, DEA, LAPD, FDNY, SAT, GPA and all the other American acroynms taze first and ask questions later but the American experience isn't the world's. Y'all need to fix your country rather than expend energy on dismissing the good stuff.
posted by Jenga at 4:38 PM on June 2, 2011


Law enforcement agencies (in general, not just in the US) already set up lengthy sting operations which rely on building trust within communities in order to gather information not available to someone watching from the outside. I don't know why this is suddenly impossible because the illegal activity happens to be occurring on the internet.

Yes, I know SWAT, DEA, LAPD, FDNY, SAT, GPA and all the other American acroynms taze first and ask questions later but the American experience isn't the world's.

That's quite a collection! I'm amused by the suggestion that America's police force is uniquely totalitarian - it's built into the system. I would argue that our atrocities are simply the most public.
posted by muddgirl at 5:11 PM on June 2, 2011


Jenga: there's no limit to the iterations you publish but there's also no limit to the public transaction history. I can trace your splitting and merging all the way through. If you ever once used any money for something that identifies you personally, all your money can be linked.

The one way I can't trace your currency is if you mix it with other people's in some way other than via a published Bitcoin transaction. Which is exactly what the Silk Road "tumbler" does. The BitCoin wiki recommends moving the money through MyBitcoin for mixing. There's a term of art for this kind of mixing, money laundering.
posted by Nelson at 5:15 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]


I wish instead of investing such time in circumventing a system, people worked to change that system instead. Want to buy drugs? Campaign supported by international experiences which show that legalizing drugs is the single best way to win the war against drugs.
posted by oxford blue at 5:31 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]


Uh, yeah. I got a buzz just thinking about writing to congress.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:15 PM on June 2, 2011


I wish instead of investing such time in circumventing a system, people worked to change that system instead.

I wish people did both. Every time I donate to MPP they send me a thank-you, and at the bottom they list the total number of people who've ever given -- it's not even anywhere close to six figures, and that really makes me sad. If everyone who bought a bag (or a Bitcoin) pitched in $5 we might be living in a better world...
posted by vorfeed at 7:02 PM on June 2, 2011 [1 favorite]


If everyone who bought a bag bought two instead, it might at least seem like they were living in a better world.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:21 PM on June 2, 2011


Uh, yeah. I got a buzz just thinking about writing to congress.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:15 AM on June 3 [+] [!]

I submit there are more than one ways to reach fulfillment.
posted by oxford blue at 7:26 PM on June 2, 2011


True. I reach fulfillment by being a braying jackass.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:29 PM on June 2, 2011


Tell us more.
posted by oxford blue at 7:35 PM on June 2, 2011


I used to think that drugs would never be legalized in my lifetime, but as I see the demographics in the country changing, tax revenue falling, and a basically blase attitude towards drug use emerging among most rational people, I feel like (at least marijuana) will be legal in most states within the next 20 years. Maybe I'm wrong, but it feels that way to me.
posted by codacorolla at 7:41 PM on June 2, 2011


Bitcoin is not decentralized.
posted by scalefree at 9:06 AM on June 8, 2011


Getting the anonymous PO box, wouldn't that be nice to have?

Chuck U. Farley?
posted by Theta States at 11:37 AM on June 8, 2011 [1 favorite]


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