The Long Road to Flex Mentallo

November 1, 2011 2:59 PM

In February, DC Comics imprint Vertigo will finally reprint Flex Mentallo by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely. Vertigo unveiled a new piece of artwork by Quitely that will serve as the cover to the new deluxe edition. Long regarded as one of the finest superhero comics ever published, heavily annotated online, and subject of much study, the work has been out of print since its initial publication in 1996 due to a lawsuit with bodybuilder Charles Atlas's company. Atlas claimed that the title character infringed on his image, but DC successfully argued that Flex Mentallo's origin was a parody of Atlas's famous print ad, "The Insult That Made a Man Out of Mac". Despite its victory, DC had decided not to reprint the book and original issues of it often go for $30 or more each on eBay, though most who've read it at this point have done so via scanned copies from BitTorrent. When the new deluxe edition is finally published in February, it will leave Alan Moore's Marvelman/Miracleman as one of the last great superhero stories still waiting to be reprinted (though Marvel is clearly working on that, too).
posted by davextreme (108 comments total)

Well that's some good news - his original Doom Patrol appearance is worth a read too.

As for Marvelman - I've come to the concluision that while Marvel have the earlier stuff for whatever reason the Moore stuff is still in limbo, otherwise they'd bloody well be printing it instead of that. So the curse continues...
posted by Artw at 3:05 PM on November 1, 2011

Why wait? I heartily suggest that you grab it via BT now and then buy it when it comes out in the Real World. And then I suggest you get a bunch of them and give them to your comics loving friends for X-Mas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and whatever the hell else happens in the winter. Flex Mentallo is genius.
posted by artof.mulata at 3:18 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

'Bout goddamned time.

And then I suggest you get a bunch of them and give them to your comics loving friends...

I think this goes without saying, and is the reason I've been waiting for a reprint this whole time. So many people need to be exposed to this, but there is no way I'm letting my original issues out of my sight. They will be buried with me.
posted by lekvar at 3:20 PM on November 1, 2011 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I don't believe anybody really has the rights to Moore's Marvelman because if they did they would be printing the hell out of it. And as for Flex Mentallo...it left me very cold. I can't get into Morrison's stuff no matter how hard I try, after forcing my way through Animal Man I'm afraid of Morrison suddenly popping up in a panel to say something clever he read in Cioran or something, and the characters go "Ah, hmm, that's very interesting!" and the rest of the comic will end up being "But what could that comic writer have meant?" Frankly his fourth-wall-meta-hallucination-parallel-reality stuff is profoundly tiresome.
posted by tumid dahlia at 3:24 PM on November 1, 2011 [2 favorites]

I don't believe the whole "Charles Atlas" story. They're just covering up for Quitely taking 15 years to draw the new cover.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 3:35 PM on November 1, 2011 [8 favorites]

Fear not, Tumid Dahlia! Grant Morrison, by inserting himself as a character into Animal Man, made himself (as a comic character) into a DC-owned property. He appeared in Suicide Squad as The Writer, a superbeing with the power to alter reality by typing, and was killed off pretty unceremoniously, presumably by a writer who shared your feelings about the sanctity of the fourth wall.

It would have been sort of hilarious if he had come back during Blackest Night, maybe trying to recruit Kyle Rayner to draw a comic for him, but no such luck.
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:36 PM on November 1, 2011 [6 favorites]

I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a recurring theme with Morrison, but Animal Man is probably where he does it most explicitly - Flex Mentallo and parts of The Invisibles coming joint third... and then theres The Filth, which is sort of it's own thing...

Don't read Supergods, it would really irritate you.

Also the end of Animal Man made me cry.
posted by Artw at 3:42 PM on November 1, 2011 [2 favorites]

Frankly his fourth-wall-meta-hallucination-parallel-reality stuff is profoundly tiresome.

At last! I have found the ultimate hipster statement. I promise never to use it for anything less than the worldwide promotion of ironically unironic lulz.
posted by byanyothername at 3:44 PM on November 1, 2011 [4 favorites]

Fear not, Tumid Dahlia! Grant Morrison, by inserting himself as a character into Animal Man, made himself (as a comic character) into a DC-owned property. He appeared in Suicide Squad as The Writer...

Hey, that's really interesting, I hadn't even thought of something crazy like that.

At last! I have found the ultimate hipster statement.

¿:D?
posted by tumid dahlia at 3:47 PM on November 1, 2011

It could be better in some ways, but I kind of adore Flex Mentallo, so this makes me very happy. I often see the "weird for weird's sake" criticism of Morrison, but I don't really understand it. Maybe I haven't read enough of him or something, but his characteristic style for me is the wide eyed sincerity, which somehow is a rare and precious thing in English literature at all levels.
posted by byanyothername at 3:48 PM on November 1, 2011 [3 favorites]

¿:D?

For totes. It made me smile.
posted by byanyothername at 3:49 PM on November 1, 2011

Parallel realties and hallucinations tiresome? I think there's a Cathy fan in this thread. Ack!
posted by elphTeq at 3:49 PM on November 1, 2011 [2 favorites]

The "I have become... Cosmically Aware" panels have been one of my favorite sequences in all of comics. Leave alone the setting... Genius.
I'll buy the reprint to save the copies in the basement further beatings.
posted by djrock3k at 3:58 PM on November 1, 2011

Don't read Supergods, it would really irritate you.

I flicked through it and it did. In fairness though I hear his New X-Men is a quite excellent good old fashioned superhero story but I'm being cautious about it because I'm afraid it will have some schtick where Wolverine doesn't use his claws and Colossus turns out to be gay and Xavier uses his mind powers to do trippy parallel dimension stuff and ends up being able to communicate with all carbon atoms in the universe! or something.

"Weird for weird's sake" is, unfortunately, the overwhelming impression I have of him. The Filth was crazy bizarro stuff and Invisibles had me staring into space out of sheer boredom about halfway through book 2. But I also admit that the reason I react so strongly and in such a negative way to his stuff is because of Animal Man, which I read well and truly after it was "groundbreaking" (which I acknowledge it must have been, at one point) because what kind of fuckhead puts themselves in a superhero comic and essentially argues that they are god? It wasn't so much that it was a fourth-wall-breaker, it was that we had been going along for a while in this universe and were engaged by everything that was happening (and I really, really liked the comic until the last few issues) and it was well-written and suddenly this Smashing Pumpkins guy pops up and tells us, basically, that he is fully awesome, and points out that the thread was there all along, but when I looked closer at that thread all I saw was a big pulsing seam of shit that just stank up the whole run and ruined Morrison for me forever.

The new Animal Man is turning out to be quite cool, however - the first time in many many years I've cared enough to buy actual monthly issues rather than waiting for trades - and I hope something dumb like that doesn't happen there too. And was it somebody on here who recommended Blue Beetle? Because if it was I am going to whip you with a wet, rolled-up Hack/Slash omnibus.
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:00 PM on November 1, 2011

...the sanctity of the fourth wall.

For me, it's only sacred until She-Hulk does it.
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:03 PM on November 1, 2011

Yeah, Morrison does that "fucking with your head" stuff all the time. Just like he did in All Star-Superman and JLA and Batman and We3and DC One Million and New X-Men and Aztek and...I think I've made my point.

Talking about how tiresome Grant Morrison's metafictional tendencies are when it's obvious that it's only one aspect of his work is just like talking about Alan Moore worshipping a snake god: it's lazy "criticism" that makes it plain that you've not actually read that much of his work. The man can tell a straightforward superhero story with the best of them. He was going to be behind a Superman relaunch with Mark Waid and Mark Millar that was going to be very celebratory and reverent even as it tried to do something new.
posted by beaucoupkevin at 4:05 PM on November 1, 2011 [5 favorites]

Thing is I didn't see too many snake gods being worshipped in Top 10 but everything I've read by Morrison - not everything he's written, mind, but everything I've read - has done exactly what I'm talking about and I'm not saying I don't like it because I'm trying to get a column over at Comic Book Resources, I'm saying I don't like it because I didn't enjoy it and because it annoyed me. The fact that he's hanging out with characters like Mark "Just one more issue!" Waid and Mark "What if I write a comic where all dicks explode, in extreme detail, again and again, on every page?" Millar just cements my notion that I don't enjoy him and never will.
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:10 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

And was it somebody on here who recommended Blue Beetle

I recommend the John Rogers Blue Beetle...

The man can tell a straightforward superhero story with the best of them.

Yeah. His JLA run is a wonderful thing.

My copy of Supergods should arrive tomorrow. yay!
posted by Zed at 4:12 PM on November 1, 2011

In fairness though I hear his New X-Men is a quite excellent good old fashioned superhero story

Morrison's New X-Men is good. It doesn't do the meta stuff and only does the gratuitous weird in measured doses. But I'd hardly describe it as an "old fashioned superhero story". As Adam Cadre put it: "Morrison approached the X-Men from the following angle: hey, for the first time in forty years, let's actually use the premise! No longer is the mutant idea just there to allow lazy writers to churn out new superheroes, or to make for a handy reason for characters to feel oppressed; New X-Men is a science fiction series about a world in which a new species is beginning to supplant humankind and, if projections are correct, will completely replace it in four generations."

posted by baf at 4:14 PM on November 1, 2011

It's the best X-Men since Claremont's defining run, which every other X-Men run is a dim reflection of. Kieron Gillen might beat him though, if he didn't get derailed by some fucking crossover every five minutes.
posted by Artw at 4:16 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

The fact that he's hanging out with characters like Mark "Just one more issue!" Waid and Mark "What if I write a comic where all dicks explode, in extreme detail, again and again, on every page?" Millar just cements my notion that I don't enjoy him and never will.

To be fair, he was going to do that Superman project eleven years ago, which is like a century in comics creator time. From what I can gather, he's as tired of Mark Millar as you are, but if you're not reading and enjoying Waid's Daredevil, boy. I just don't know.
posted by beaucoupkevin at 4:17 PM on November 1, 2011 [2 favorites]

baf: See, that actually sounds pretty cool and makes me want to read it oh wait! the dickheads at Comics Etc. don't have it and "don't know" when or if they'll be ordering it, guess I'll get it from Amazon oh wait! Amazon tortures its workers. Sigh.

Zed: I do actually really like JLA thanks to Giffen/DeMatteis (who I know I go on and on about) so if you promise it isn't full of sentient clouds from space and Wonder Woman doesn't accidentally have some kind of weird chemical lolly then I promise I will check it out.
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:23 PM on November 1, 2011

There are many things in the various arts that break new ground and become so influential that, when one encounters them after living with the things they influenced, seem trite in retrospect.

I experience this when I try to introduce music nerds to Big Star or Gram Parsons. Yeah, in their time, nobody sounded like them, but now its sometimes hard to tell what the big deal was.

I think one could make that argument with Morrison's "Animal Man." I read it as it was being released and it ruined all other comics for me (except 'Sandman') for a very, very long time. Every month, I remember thinking about when the next issue was going to come out almost every single day. When the release date would come up, I'd read every previous issue so I'd have it all in my head before reading the new issue.

The coyote issue? Certainly among the best comics I ever read and a little roadmap for the whole series.

The last issue? I, too, got choked up during it. The metaphor of trying to send signals to somebody that may or may not have been there - it put me in mind of Antonin Artaud and his belief that actors should be like victims being burned at the stake, signaling through the flames. Morrison wasn't in the comic to be God (really, "he" wasn't there at all, but that's going to take me down a semiotic path I'm not prepared to explore just now). He was in the comic, perhaps, because he was trying to communicate something to us, and he wasn't sure if we were going to get it, and really he wasn't even sure that we'd even see his message.

He wasn't God - we, the reader, were God and he was trying to send a sort of prayer to us.

Well, that's how I read it, anyways.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:27 PM on November 1, 2011 [8 favorites]

Gosh. People really can be pretty upset with you if you don't like their favourite comic book, can't they?

Tumid Dahlia: The sentient clouds from space are, let's say, in no way gratuitous. The Morrison run on JLA is generally very good, although it suffers from some difficult art (as does New X-Men, at times, which is also definitely worth reading), and moves up through the gears nicely.
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:34 PM on November 1, 2011

It's been a while since I've read it, but I recall no sentient clouds from space or Wonder Woman having any weird chemicals. (Are these Filth references? Been a while since I've read that, too. And I didn't like it at the time, but I'm willing to give it another shot eventually, without the original pause between the issues...)
posted by Zed at 4:40 PM on November 1, 2011

(Also, I'm pretty sure that She-Hulk was breaking the fourth wall before Buddy Baker - it's certainly a pretty close-run thing...)
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:40 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

I won't tell the Charles Atlas people about Saxton Hale and the Mann Co. if you don't.
posted by Spatch at 4:43 PM on November 1, 2011

Gosh. People really can be pretty upset with you if you don't like their favourite comic book, can't they?

I just get "upset" when people are willfully ignorant and dismissive of a creator that's proven their worth in an industry where creativity is unnecessary as long as you can hit a continuity-friendly deadline again and again.
posted by beaucoupkevin at 4:45 PM on November 1, 2011 [3 favorites]

(And Joey Michaels probably best expresses why I give Morrison so much of a tether. I basically only read Animal Man for a stretch because it was the first superhero comic I'd read that honestly enthralled me. Not that I didn't enjoy/love Justice League International and Roger Stern's The Avengers and the like, but with Animal Man, he hit a balance between family, metafiction and his own concerns that was like a punch to the middle of my chest.)
posted by beaucoupkevin at 4:51 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

Oh please, I don't give a shit for continuity or who does what and when, like I say I don't even really read any new stuff (apart from a handful of yet-again-rebooted DC titles, which is the first time I've done anything of the sort since Y: The Last Man), and I don't hold any particular heroes or characters in particularly high regard, I just like certain things and don't like others. I certainly can be as dismissive as I like when it comes to what issues of which comic I choose to spend five minutes reading, because in my world everything is all about me. And I consider Peter Milligan a sort of supreme deity of comics so it isn't even a problem with things being "weird", I guess it's just the type of weird that Morrison does that I don't like. I'm not saying you can't think he's great!

OH! And I fucking love Zenith! Except I've only got the run in tremendously shitty QC colour reprints. And you can bet that if I ever saw Zoids anywhere I would snap that bitch up like a crazy fishing leopard.

Speaking of tremendously shitty Eagle/QC colour reprints, if anybody wants pretty much every Judge Dredd ever in the world, hit me up on MeMail. Local pickup only! :P
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:53 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

So when are we doing the Mefi Comics Podcast?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:07 PM on November 1, 2011 [2 favorites]

(And Joey Michaels probably best expresses why I give Morrison so much of a tether. I basically only read Animal Man for a stretch because it was the first superhero comic I'd read that honestly enthralled me. Not that I didn't enjoy/love Justice League International and Roger Stern's The Avengers and the like, but with Animal Man, he hit a balance between family, metafiction and his own concerns that was like a punch to the middle of my chest.)

That's cool - I still buy Kristen Hersh albums because "Your Ghost" got me at the right emotional time. However, I don't think the best way to win people over to the joys of 90s 4AD is to call them wilfully ignorant for not having had the same experience as I did. I can even see that "Your Ghost" might seem less resonant if first experienced in a different context.

If someone tells me they didn't enjoy "Your Ghost", though, one thing I don't do is list a series of Kristen Hersh songs that person hasn't heard either, and then say "I think I've made my point", then call them wilfully ignorant for not having heard them. That kind of doesn't work as evangelism.
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:16 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

Being clever's a fine thing, but sometimes a boy just needs to get out of the house and meet some girls.
posted by benzenedream at 5:34 PM on November 1, 2011 [5 favorites]

That kind of doesn't work as evangelism.

What made you think I was being evangelistic? If being a comics fan and writer has taught me anything, it's that everybody is wrong and i have to tell them that. (Joking. I apologize if i offended or bothered anyone, but phrases like "big pulsing seam of shit" and calling a creator a fuckhead because you don't like their approach means I don't need feel the need to be politic myself.)
posted by beaucoupkevin at 5:35 PM on November 1, 2011

I feel a bit strange asking this, but is Animal Man worth the read? If so, should I do the whole series? Or are there certain arcs that are better than others?

The funny thing is, I was reading comics at the time Animal Man was first launched, but for some reason (I think the house ads made it look a bit silly and not very innovative) I never picked it up. I was a reader of Swamp Thing, Hellblazer, The Question, The Spectre and a number of the traditional hero books. I've got a few issues of Sandman, but I was never enthralled enough with it to be a regular reader.

I really enjoyed the first two issues of the Animal Man relaunch. New DCU Swamp Thing feels like a hymn to old readers like myself. Even though I've got a historical understanding of a majority of the characters, I have no clue what is going on in Justice League Dark and I don't think I care any more. I want to like Shade -- it feels like it should be the type of book that appeals to me -- but again, I'm feeling a bit lost. (Shade was another one of those titles I somehow skipped back in the day.) I'm willing to give Resurrection Man another couple of issues as so far it's holding my attention. If that helps provide any guidance as to my taste.
posted by sardonyx at 5:35 PM on November 1, 2011

OH! And I fucking love Zenith! Except I've only got the run in tremendously shitty QC colour reprints. And you can bet that if I ever saw Zoids anywhere I would snap that bitch up like a crazy fishing leopard.

Heh. Guess who just worked with Steve Yeowell earlier in the year...
posted by Artw at 5:40 PM on November 1, 2011

Stop it, you!
posted by tumid dahlia at 5:48 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

I have no clue what is going on in Justice League Dark and I don't think I care any more.

I fear I'm the same. I'll get issue #3 because I've arbitrarily put that down as my cutoff for these new DC titles. If something interesting and engaging doesn't happen by the third issue then I'll drop it. I've been hesitant about Swamp Thing because what's the point after Alan Moore's run? But I'll grab those today I think, and see what happens.
posted by tumid dahlia at 5:51 PM on November 1, 2011

Goddamn it guys, I have work to do today. Now I have to spend ages researching and contemplating the Xorn/Magneto conundrum.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:06 PM on November 1, 2011

"Xorn/Magneto conundrum" is one of those phrases, like "UNIT dating controversy" that functions as an effective shibboleth for my particular flavor of nerdiness.
posted by Rangeboy at 6:19 PM on November 1, 2011 [2 favorites]

I totally thought that meant a controversy about whether members of UNIT were allowed to date. I must be a jock.
posted by running order squabble fest at 6:24 PM on November 1, 2011

There is no Xorn.
posted by Artw at 6:25 PM on November 1, 2011 [3 favorites]

I am still confused by The Filth, what the hell was going on in that. Is there a companion book or something ?

I loved All-Star Superman though
posted by Ad hominem at 6:26 PM on November 1, 2011

A soviet space chimp told Ham to fuck off.
posted by Artw at 6:29 PM on November 1, 2011

It would have been sort of hilarious if he had come back during Blackest Night, maybe trying to recruit Kyle Rayner to draw a comic for him, but no such luck.

That's ... fucking brilliant, actually.

The man can tell a straightforward superhero story with the best of them.

Can? Yes, sometimes. The Seven Soldiers of Victory series was a great little weirdo "event." His Marvel Boy miniseries was also quite good. Does he always? No. Infinite Crisis was ... let me politically say "not great." The guy has a lot of goodwill from me, but let's be honest: he's no more immune to doing things on autopilot than the rest of us. That Japanese super team he created for DC? Total phone-it-in kitch that stuck out from the rest of the universe like a sore thumb.

I've found Paul Cornell to be surprisingly able to channel Morrison-esque weirdness, while still giving the reader an actual story to be interested in. If you haven't read Captain Britain and MI:13, go do so now. Dr. Doom calls Dracula a racist while they're standing on the Moon. For realz.

The Morrison run on JLA is generally very good, although it suffers from some difficult art (as does New X-Men, at times, which is also definitely worth reading), and moves up through the gears nicely.

Totally true. Some of my all-time favorite Batman moments are from that series, and (weirdly) Morrison's JLA/Wild C.A.T.S. crossover. Specifically: the JLA does battle with the Time Trapper of all people, who time-travels away, leaving the JLA stuck in the past. Batman buckles down to repair one of Time Trapper's broken time machines, and Superman earnestly tells him, "Hurry! We've got to catch him!" Bats looks at Clark with the flat, lidded gaze one saves for the mentally disabled, and says, "It's a time machine. It doesn't matter when we fix it."

Then again, that "Can actually, seriously, literally beat ANYTHING" version of Batman has come to be the dominant one, and being that over-the-top awesome all the time has made him significantly one-note in the last couple of years.
posted by Amanojaku at 6:31 PM on November 1, 2011 [4 favorites]

Also: the oft-mentioned All-Star Superman, of course. Probably the best Superman has been over 12 consecutive issues in forever, and totally a straightforward superhero story.
posted by Amanojaku at 6:33 PM on November 1, 2011

Lois should have arm-wrestled Atlas, not Supes. It would have worked so much better that way.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:34 PM on November 1, 2011

I love 90's Grant Morrison. 2000's Grant Morrison....not so much. I'm still waiting for a miniseries featuring The Fact. There's an obscure character reference for you.
posted by GavinR at 6:35 PM on November 1, 2011 [2 favorites]

Being clever's a fine thing, but sometimes a boy just needs to get out of the house and meet some girls

You say that, but my lady friend is the one that keeps buying these comics, thereby forcing me to read them by cunning seeding them all over the house.

I WENT OUT AND MET SOME GIRLS AND THEY MADE ME READ COMICS!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:35 PM on November 1, 2011 [2 favorites]

Heh, I remember Quitely when he was drawing The Greens for Electric Soup. You pretty much had to hang around AKA Books & Comics to get it, pre-JBP distribution.
posted by scruss at 6:38 PM on November 1, 2011

I totally thought that meant a controversy about whether members of UNIT were allowed to date. I must be a jock.

UNIT dating controversy. Never have so many expended so much effort for so little.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:40 PM on November 1, 2011

It's a little early to say, but Action may well end up topping All Star as my favorite Superman.
posted by Artw at 6:40 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

Never have so many expended so much effort for so little.

Actually, I'm pretty sure those are the words inscribed above the doors to my doctoral program.
posted by Rangeboy at 6:42 PM on November 1, 2011 [3 favorites]

Never have so many expended so much effort for so little.

They're also the words embossed around the edge of the wax seal on my law degree.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:13 PM on November 1, 2011

Wow, I never even knew any of those stories were set any date other than when they were filmed.
posted by Artw at 7:17 PM on November 1, 2011

I know nothing of Flex Mentallo, but I a interested in hearing more about the E-ring being teabagged by a titan.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:39 PM on November 1, 2011

I am still confused by The Filth, what the hell was going on in that. Is there a companion book or something ?


The Invisibles, sort of, and also Michael Moorcock's Cornelius chronicles, which it feels like Morrison was still working through as an influence at this point. And I think in a funny sort of way John Smith's Indigo Prime stories...

The Filth contains a lot of recurring Morrison themes, very densely packed - fractal universes, diseases spreading across realities, time breaking down under the pressure of a cataclysmic internal or external event, the struggle of good people not to succumb to their intrinsic urges to debase and violate, 70s cop movies, the presence of ethereal devices representing the hand of the writer intruding into the physical world of the characters. It does have a plot, but it's probably as enjoyable read as a kind of tone poem...
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:41 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

I am still confused by The Filth, what the hell was going on in that. Is there a companion book or something ?

I believe the "companion book" is cough medicine. Lots and lots of cough medicine.
posted by tumid dahlia at 8:11 PM on November 1, 2011 [2 favorites]

I was always a little sad that while Flex Mentallo got to have an additional adventure outside of Morrison's Doom Patrol run, we never got a Mr. Nobody miniseries.

How I loved Mr. Nobody and the Brotherhood of Dada. The scene where the Justice League is just standing around looking at a painting where Paris used to be, only to be brushed aside by the Doom Patrol gets me every time.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 8:31 PM on November 1, 2011 [3 favorites]

I loved the Flex Mentallo character as soon as I saw him on Doom Patrol #42. But I was also influenced by the fact that an original Doom Patrol was one of my favorite comics as a kid. I'm sorry I missed Morrison's run with the new Animal Man, but my purchases there were also influenced by a childhood favorite. And y'all can talk all you want about JLA and all kinds of bizzaro stuff, but for my money you cant out-weird B'wana Beast.
posted by DaddyNewt at 9:13 PM on November 1, 2011

If you're interested in Morrison, JLA is probably the best place to start, and Supergods the absolute worst. I've thought I was a fan of Morrison's for something like twenty years, and then I read Supergods and felt like he'd managed to talk me out of it, though I was quickly talked back into it by reading Action #1. I've pretty much decided that Supergods is just non-canon. It's, y'know, out of continuity.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:15 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

Wow, a whole thread about Flex Mentallo and not one mention of that superhero orgy sequence? Allow me to be the first. But even if you find yourself easily tired of Morrison's particular stylistic and cognitive concerns, here's the key thing that makes Flex such an apotheosis of fantasticness:

It's just four issues.

That's it. That's all you get.

Four jam-packed, extremely tightly plotted issues. If you're a fan of comic book superfolks, they will be a little atom bomb that will keep on going off in your head long after you put them down. The story is perfect -- as fucked-up as the most fucked-up parts of The Invisibles, more streamlined than the rambling craziness of The Filth (which, it should be noted, makes *much* more sense on 2nd reading after you refresh yourself about the ending), and is both sharper and more emotional on the nature of superheroics and the appeal of comic books than anything I've seen from Morrison since.

It really is that good.

Do yourself a favor after it finally fucking comes out (I'll believe it when I see it, myself) and read it slowly the first time, then go back and read it again when you get the chance. It unfolds in layers, but not so many you can't keep track, and what appears from the folds is funny, sad, pointed and just meta enough to hook your comics-loving, sex-addled, drug-appreciating monkey brain for good.

Oh yeah, and it's stunningly illustrated by one of the greatest living artists in the medium. Don't doubt it for a second.

Serious question: Do you put the accent on the first or second syllable when you pronounce Mentallo? Yes, this was a minor bone of contention at work today.
posted by mediareport at 9:25 PM on November 1, 2011 [3 favorites]

It's a little early to say, but Action may well end up topping All Star as my favorite Superman.

That's high praise. I've been mostly sitting out the New 52, waiting for it to get culled down to, as someone around here put it, the New Four Or Five That Are Actually Worth Reading, but I may have to just give up and read Action now. That and Animal Man, but I confess I feel a bit like a DC hipster: "Pfft. I liked Animal Man and Etrigan before they were main-steam." If they make Dr. Fate and The Blue Devil popular next, I'm gonna be mighty put out.

Serious question: Do you put the accent on the first or second syllable when you pronounce Mentallo?

Second. Men-TA-lo.
posted by Amanojaku at 9:39 PM on November 1, 2011

It's the best X-Men since Claremont's defining run, which every other X-Men run is a dim reflection of.

Wholeheartedly agree. Big X-Men fan from the 80s here, and his run was one of the few that felt fresh, fun, and unlike a lot of the stuff that came before and since. It wasn't so heavy in the meta that his other stuff does a lot, but did treat the characters pretty damn well. I just wish they would have made it a separate run, and started over after he left. The treatment they gave it after he left really messed it up. Xorn has a brother, etc.
posted by usagizero at 10:01 PM on November 1, 2011

. I've been mostly sitting out the New 52, waiting for it to get culled down to, as someone around here put it, the New Four Or Five That Are Actually Worth Reading, but I may have to just give up and read Action now.

I've committed to reading at least all four issues of the new 52, mostly out of ocd, and dear god it's getting painful. There are titles that i'm loving and can't wait for but seem to be the dark horses, the titles that seem to want to be Moore and Morrison, the return to the 90s bad guy lead in a book, etc. Action is good, but i worry about it's long term reading, since the creative team is mostly changing at book six from what i read. :P

My biggest complaints about them though is they are all feeling like they are written for the trades. Which reads better when collected, but is kind of annoying trying to read month to month.
posted by usagizero at 10:06 PM on November 1, 2011

I've been hesitant about Swamp Thing because what's the point after Alan Moore's run?

What i was saying about all X-Men stories being a dim reflection of teh Claremont run? All post-Moore Swamp Thing stories, with thepossible exception of the Veitch ones, have really suffered from either being a dim reflection of his run. I felt that really strongly with the latest issue, which funnily enough did some Anatomy Lesson style everything-you-know-is-wrong type messing about with the basics of the character as established by Moore bck when he did his everything-you-know-is-wrong shtick, and it's kind of clumsy compared with when Moore did it. That said, it's one of the better titles of the nu52 and I'm interested in seeing where it goes, especially if it links up with Animal Man.
posted by Artw at 10:45 PM on November 1, 2011 [1 favorite]

My biggest complaints about them though is they are all feeling like they are written for the trades.

Not Morrison, he's all about the single issue as storytelling unit.
posted by Artw at 10:46 PM on November 1, 2011

How I loved Mr. Nobody and the Brotherhood of Dada. The scene where the Justice League is just standing around looking at a painting where Paris used to be, only to be brushed aside by the Doom Patrol gets me every time

Yeah, Mr. Nobody was about the greatest creation ever. I used to use him as my user icon on a hundred different vBulletin sites.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:54 PM on November 1, 2011

/throws down chicken.

There! I've taken over the world. What are you going to do about that?
posted by Artw at 12:09 AM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]

Thing is I didn't see too many snake gods being worshipped in Top 10

There's a snake god in issue 3 of Tom Strong.
posted by painquale at 2:20 AM on November 2, 2011

Serious question: Do you put the accent on the first or second syllable when you pronounce Mentallo? Yes, this was a minor bone of contention at work today.

Morrison puts it on the second (Men-TAL-o). I always said it more "mental-o."
posted by davextreme at 4:26 AM on November 2, 2011

I loved the Filth. Easily my favorite morrison book. I like the Invisibles better in theory than I did the actual books. And Animal Man was a bit too restrained.
posted by empath at 5:28 AM on November 2, 2011

For some reason I never picked up Flex Mentallo the first time around so I'm looking forward to this.

GM can be hit and miss at times. The Invisibles was great, but flawed. I thought The Filth was utterly brilliant though.

Heh. Guess who just worked with Steve Yeowell earlier in the year...

Well I'm all intrigued now. And it's a reminder that Zenith (quite possibly the best thing to emerge from 2000AD) is well overdue for a complete reprint itself (once they solve those particular legal issues).
posted by panboi at 6:13 AM on November 2, 2011

I love 90's Grant Morrison. 2000's Grant Morrison....not so much. I'm still waiting for a miniseries featuring The Fact. There's an obscure character reference for you.

THE FACT IS: That would be awesome.

Flex Mentallo is one of my two favorite superheroes. The other is Michael Kupperman's Johnny Rampage, the Cross-Eyed Lunatic with a Lit Stick of Dynamite in Each Hand. He only appears in one panel, but it's very memorable.

Anyway. The hero halo? Just absolutely amazing.

I also love the way that Flex Mentallo sends nerds into apoplexy because his powers are impossible to quantify. What are his powers? Muscle mystery. He has the power of muscle mystery. He can cloud men's minds by flexing and one time he flexed so hard he turned the Pentagon into a circle.

Greatest fuckin' character ever.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 6:28 AM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]

The longer they weight on Miracle/Marvelman the more of a damp squib it will turn out to be. It kind of hasn't aged well.
posted by Legomancer at 6:46 AM on November 2, 2011

I was a huge fan of Gaiman and Moore and couldn't get through Miracleman. I thought it was kind of boring. This was about 10 years ago.
posted by empath at 6:54 AM on November 2, 2011

>>> couldn't get through Miracleman. I thought it was kind of boring.

Boring? No. I still say the confrontation between Miracleman and Johnny Bates in decimated London (Miracleman #15) is one of the most powerful, most horrific sequences I've read most anywhere, comics or otherwise.
posted by grabbingsand at 7:10 AM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]

I didn't make it more than a few issues in.
posted by empath at 7:17 AM on November 2, 2011

I also love the way that Flex Mentallo sends nerds into apoplexy because his powers are impossible to quantify. What are his powers? Muscle mystery. He has the power of muscle mystery. He can cloud men's minds by flexing and one time he flexed so hard he turned the Pentagon into a circle.

The best thing about this is that there's a good in-story explanation for it. Flex isn't just a superhero, he's the superhero a bright kid came up with. If you're eight and drawing your own comic, figuring out the strict physical limits of the main character's powers is obviously gonna take second place to establishing that they're fucking awesome. Really, from that perspective it actually turns out so much cooler if they don't have quantifiable limits.
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:36 AM on November 2, 2011

The longer they weight on Miracle/Marvelman the more of a damp squib it will turn out to be. It kind of hasn't aged well.

I'm not sure if there's a particular aspect that strikes you as not ageing well but I reread the series recently after a break of a few years and was surprised at just how good and affecting it was. I also passed it on to a friend that had never read it before and he thought that it was excellent. So there are certainly a few of us out there that think it has aged well.

As to Morrison, I'll admit that I do often find his work to be somewhat frustrating as I'm reading it because I'm rushing through trying to make sense of things and hoping that a bit of information will be coming along soon to explain what's what. Re-reading usually allows the story to breathe more and therefore become more enjoyable. Final Crisis is a good example: as much as a I loved reading an issue entitled How To Murder The Earth opening with Brainiac-5 saying "Hurry, Superman! I calculate we have exactly 72.4 seconds before time breaks down and this sentence becomes meaningless", it originally also engendered a lot of fruitless head-scratching and chin-stroking in me. Reading it for a second and third time, having finished the series, I felt more able to chase down the various narrative threads and it became a lot more satisfying.
posted by MUD at 7:57 AM on November 2, 2011 [1 favorite]

I felt Morrison's New X-men and even his Batman runs kinda violate the basic tenets of comic book stewardship, i.e. that you as a creator know that the property is more valuable than the story you are telling with the book. Unless you are writing creator owned or an elseworld style book you need to leave the book in a manner consistent with another creator taking over a book and being able to tell other stories.

With New X-men in particular I feel like Morrison was writing a self contained story that essentially functioned as a what if? scenario. Basically what if mutants were commonplace and the X-men were no longer superheroes but more mutant power policemen/teachers/firefighters. What if mutants actually had their own culture and were no longer afraid and in hiding. Basically Morrison's run has the whole mutants = gay subtext made much more explicit. It's a very rich story although a bit too obvious in many places and as a stand alone story is quite enjoyable.

However as a continuing book, especially since the x-books have on average 8-10 team and solo books running at any given moment I also think it was pretty self-indulgent because there was simply too much that challenged the marvel status quo.

Even though the x-titles generally operate in a largely self-contained universe, you can't have millions of mutants operating throughout the US without significant ramifications to the rest of the marvel lines. You can't kill off Magneto permanently. You can't undo decades of mutants = feared and hunted plotlines.

So pretty promptly after Morrison left they started to retcon stuff in the form of M-day (which was needed for a variety of reasons beyond the Morrison population explosion) and the Xorneto retcon. Small mutant population with their backs against the wall has become the dominate theme in the period post M-day. In some ways that's been good and some ways that's been bad.

Had Morrison's run been in the Ultimate Universe (no or limited status quo) it would've been fine but as it stands the x-titles are still recovering from Morrison's run and the retcons taken to "fix" it.

However I think that in some cases letting him loose on a title can be a really good thing. Superman for instance has seemed incredibly boring to me for the majority of my comic book buying career with some brief runs being anything other than mediocre. In contrast I find his "rediscovery" of Golden Age Superman during the DCnU Action Comics reboot to be the first Clark I've related to in years. I feel like this view of Superman re-establishes him as something other than a perfect paragon of staid patriotic Americana which is particularly relevant during a time period where we are re-examining some of the foundations of our institutions.
posted by vuron at 8:37 AM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]

Johnny Rampage, the Cross-Eyed Lunatic with a Lit Stick of Dynamite in Each Hand.

He's no Dogwelder.
posted by Artw at 8:42 AM on November 2, 2011 [3 favorites]

Bueno. Excellente. Heh heh.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:49 AM on November 2, 2011 [2 favorites]

you can't have millions of mutants operating throughout the US without significant ramifications to the rest of the marvel lines.

The mutant population had already seemingly blown up to that degree late in Claremont's run. (In fact, I thought it implied a profound failure on Xavier's part to not even try to keep up.) But then there was the genocide at Genosha and a million retcons and I don't really know where things were supposed to stand by the New X-Men's time. But Morrison hardly invented introducing elements that should reasonably change the world but don't -- that's been a comics mainstay since the beginning.

My Supergods arrived last night. He managed to get from the cover of Action Comics #1 to Papa Legba at the crossroads in one easy step. Odd fellow, this Morrison.
posted by Zed at 9:57 AM on November 2, 2011

I love Supergods, but it *is* very much Superheroes as seen by Grant Morrison, with plenty of Grant Morrisony side trips and the odd thing that is just fucking nuts, and not always in a good way. Also some surprising bitterness towards Millar and Moore.

Also he gives Zoids about a sentence and 2000ad not more than a paragraph or too.
posted by Artw at 10:03 AM on November 2, 2011

Well I'm all intrigued now.

Tum te tum de dum...
posted by Artw at 10:13 AM on November 2, 2011

Tum te tum de dum...

Everything's better with Steve Yeowell. That looks very interesting - and the 3riller idea is also an intriguing idea. If 2000ad didn't feature so much filler material I would be tempted to dip in again (in fact it was everything post-Zenith where it seemed to decline IMO).
posted by panboi at 10:24 AM on November 2, 2011

There was a very grim period in the 90s... it's pretty much on a roll right now though - I am VERY biased on this, for obvious reasons, but grab a couple of progs and I think they'll bear me out .
posted by Artw at 10:36 AM on November 2, 2011

And since we're on the subject...
Barnes & Noble Fills DC Comics Hole with 2000 AD Alan Moore Titles
posted by Artw at 10:38 AM on November 2, 2011

As irritating as I find Morrison (if I never read another interview of him, it'll be too soon), he can be a good to excellent writer with some absolutely inspired scenes, as long as he avoids his three major pitfalls: 1) his infatuation with comics nostalgia, 2) his infatuation with whatever he's just read, and 3) his infatuation with his own cleverness. Over a long series, the probability that he'll fall victim to one, two, or all three of these weaknesses approaches 1, as you can see in Doom Patrol, The Invisibles, and New X-Men. (JLA was a notable exception, mostly, I think, because there was only so much that DC would let him get away with (even with him being one of their first-tier creators) on one of their flagship titles.) On shorter, limited series, though, he manages to keep it together long enough to turn in a solid story.

In particular, his collaborations with Frank Quitely tend to be some of his better work; think of All-Star Superman, the arcs of New X-Men that Quitely worked on (he's a slow artist, so he doesn't work on monthly titles that often), and We3 especially. And, of course, Flex Mentallo, which I enjoyed a lot and am glad to see reprinted. Even though the premise falls under #1 above (and Morrison wasn't nearly the first person to make a parody of that Charles Atlas ad), there's still a lot of great bits in it (such as the orgy sequence noted above by mediareport, who also gets Morrison's relative success with shorter-form comics).

Also, WRT Miracleman, something to remember if it doesn't knock your socks off when you read it is that a lot of its impact is mitigated by the sheer number of stories that have been derived, either directly or indirectly, from it (and from Moore's work in general). Mark Waid's Irredeemable, to name one example, is basically the story of a Superman type who goes berserk and starts laying waste to big chunks of the Earth and its population--in other words, a series that's based on one issue of Miracleman, where Kid Miracleman destroys half of London pretty much because he can, no one can stop him, and he hates people in general.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:34 PM on November 2, 2011

From Artw's link:

The move heavily involves 2000 AD's extensive library of Alan Moore-written comics. Having published some of Moore's earliest material for decades, the British company has struggled to find a firm foothold in the giant US publishing business. DC's loss is 2000 AD's gain, however, as orders of titles like "The Complete Alan Moore Future Shocks" and "Tharg's Terror Tales" have been increased by B&N in significant quantities in an effort to fill the hole left in the chain's stock by the DC Comics purge.

2000 AD/Rebellion PR Coordinator Michael Molcher spoke with CBR exclusively, stating that the Barnes & Noble move has been so large, "the US edition of Alan Moore's 'Future Shocks' has gone to reprint before it has even been published."

Should the 2000 AD trades prove to be solid sellers for the bookseller, the publisher stands to make strong gains in US marketshare and shelving visibility, even when B&N begins to stock the currently-missing DC titles once again.

Well now, that's a fun little twist in the 'Alan Moore vs. DC' story.
posted by mediareport at 2:07 PM on November 2, 2011

Alan Moore kind of hates 2000ad as well, of course.
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on November 2, 2011

Hunh, I didn't know that. Clearly, I need to read more Alan Moore interviews. The British "complete" Alan Moore's Future Shocks was missing at least one thing that had been in Alan Moore's Shocking Futures. Shocking!
posted by Zed at 2:19 PM on November 2, 2011

It's connected with the Halo Jones series which Moore did with artist Ian Gibson for 2000ad.

There's plenty of legal wrangles and dispute stories for a range of other creators and artists on any number of other titles (as this thread shows), but the Halo Jones story is particularly heartbreaking.
posted by panboi at 2:35 PM on November 2, 2011

Previously
posted by Artw at 2:36 PM on November 2, 2011

Doom Patrol easter eggs from Batman:The Brave & the Bold
posted by Artw at 3:50 PM on November 2, 2011

Alan Moore kind of hates 2000ad as well, of course.

Well that sucks in a 'no clear heroes or villains' kind of way, but Artw, none of the links in your previous post make clear what the problem was, and Wikipedia's vague. I believe you but would love more details about why Moore and 2000AD parted ways in a "kind of hates" kind of way, if you have them.
posted by mediareport at 7:29 PM on November 2, 2011

It's basically another dispute about rights...

From wikipedia:
Moore has had very little to say about Halo's return in the two decades since then. "I'd got plans to have her grow up and eventually end as an old woman," Moore told Mustard magazine in January 2006. "But I got to the point where I'd said to IPC, "Look, you know that you've ripped these characters off from us. If you were to give us the rights back, I would gladly write another three books of Halo Jones."

"Whereas if you don't I will never write Halo Jones and you won't get any money from the character. And they thought, 'Yeah, let's hang on to the character forever and you never get any rights to it and never write any again.' So that's where it is."

I've got that Mustard arond somewhere, and IIRC there's more along those lines about he doesn't want anything to do with them unless they give not just him but all creators rights back, and that feeling extending to the new owers as well as Fleetway/IPC back in the day. There may be something along those lines in Thrillpower Overload (an absolutely excellent history of 2000ad by one-time editor Dave Bishop), I'll have to see if I can pull it out.
posted by Artw at 10:29 PM on November 2, 2011

Why did they sit on it for eleven years, even after winning the lawsuit? They should give free copies to the next of kin of everyone who died waiting for it. (I wonder if any person/group/company has ever done that concerning a long-delayed work.)
posted by BiggerJ at 3:22 AM on November 3, 2011

I'm sure I recall a recent interview in which Alan Moore essentially ruled out returning to Halo Jones now, regardless of what the situation was. Can't recall the link though.
posted by panboi at 4:06 AM on November 3, 2011

I think he finished it up as much as it needed finishing up but he likes to tell "the one that got away" stories about the ideas he had left in the draw, TBH.
posted by Artw at 5:07 AM on November 3, 2011

Oh, and the Batman posters reminded me of how very much I loved Doom Force. I am only sad that I didn't read it when it came out; I imagine it would have changed the way I looked at comics. As a broadside towards the shitty comics that dominated the market at the time, it was genius in a way that nothing has any right to be.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:21 AM on November 3, 2011

Flex Mentallo is everything good about Morrison wrapped up in a tidy bundle.

My other favorite comics of all time are a few of the Gaiman Miracleman issues, namely Spy Story and Notes from the Underground. Everyone should read these to see what comics could be.

I re-read Animal Man a few years back and it didn't hold up. The last issue is poignant but the leadup is weak. Morrison visits the same themes better in Flex and single issues of the Invisibles.
posted by benzenedream at 11:34 AM on November 3, 2011

Oh man, picked up Action #3 - I am loving this comic.
posted by Artw at 1:30 PM on November 3, 2011

Uncanny X-Men, talked about here, is not bad either. Gillen may claim the X-Crown yet.
posted by Artw at 1:33 PM on November 3, 2011

Studio Sessions: Frank Quitely
posted by Artw at 3:34 PM on November 3, 2011

I read most of Morrison's Doom Patrol back in the day, but all this talk finally inspired me to get the reprints for a reread.

Turns out volumes 2 and 4 are out of print and expensive. I'd have figured this for something that would have stayed in print.
posted by Zed at 10:38 AM on November 6, 2011

Man, I don't know very much about comic books - I've read Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen and Bone and some Promethea, that's pretty much it although I love some old-timey stuff like (the actual original) The Spirit - but I just read Flex Mentallo because it sounded incredible in this essay, and... wow. That was one of the best things I've ever read, comic or otherwise. I can see why others might not like it, but I loved the crap out of that, and read it through twice in a row just because it was that good.

So, well, thanks folks, especially to davextreme. This made me really happy. If anybody has suggestions on what I should read next, I'm all ears. Maybe I'll try some of the Grant Morrison issues of Doom Patrol.
posted by koeselitz at 1:34 AM on November 19, 2011