"Could you not do that, please?"

December 20, 2011 10:37 AM

Shit Girls Say, a humorous twitter account created by Graydon Sheppard and his partner Kyle Humphrey, now has two videos based on the joke [1,2]. Some women say "um, no thanks.".
posted by emilycardigan (150 comments total)

Very recently. And still rather inane.
posted by Burhanistan at 10:40 AM on December 20, 2011

yeah, I saw that, and asked the mods if I could still do this one, with more links and context. I got the go ahead. I mostly wanted to share the non SGS parts.
posted by emilycardigan at 10:42 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

"Shit Girls Say" is Really Gay
posted by Panjandrum at 10:42 AM on December 20, 2011 [7 favorites]

I just. Really don't understand how or why these are funny.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 10:43 AM on December 20, 2011 [12 favorites]

"I'm not offended, it's just a bunch of not-particularly-funny cliches" #shitgirlsactuallysay
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:44 AM on December 20, 2011 [15 favorites]

My girlfriend and I laughed at a couple of the lines, and the timing and production are pretty spot on. Overall, it's coming at things from a sexist angle, so I'm not sure if it's damaging discourse or harmless fun.
posted by Think_Long at 10:45 AM on December 20, 2011

From Panjandrum's link:

My point is that I don’t think "S$#! Girls Say" is meant to be a comment about real women at all. If anything, it’s a drag satire of the kind of stock language that we all half-ironically dabble in from time-to-time, depending on the nature of the situation.

Huh. That pretty much seems to nail it.
posted by yoink at 10:46 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Shit Gay Guys Say.
posted by ericb at 10:47 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

This is a good post, thanks for including the responses because I think those are way more interesting that the vacuous original thing. It seems like the twitter account began as a sort of affectionately blank canvas but then has degenerated into stereotyped nonsense.

Here's something else I twittered about this the other day:

#ShitGirlsActuallySay: "I know how to change the oil myself" "I'll consider your request for a raise" "No we can't be friends, we broke up"

These are all things I've heard girls say. Except when they are my boss I try to call them Women.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:47 AM on December 20, 2011 [4 favorites]

Shit Black Girls Say.
posted by ericb at 10:48 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Panjandrum: Great article. Thanks for linking it!
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 10:48 AM on December 20, 2011

My point is that I don’t think "S$#! Girls Say" is meant to be a comment about real women at all. If anything, it’s a drag satire of the kind of stock language that we all half-ironically dabble in from time-to-time, depending on the nature of the situation.

Exactly. How is this not obvious for some people?
posted by scrowdid at 10:48 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

"I'll consider your request for a raise" "No we can't be friends, we broke up"

Dude, I don't like your chances of that raise.
posted by yoink at 10:49 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

Wow, a couple of gay men engaging in misogynistic mocking and initialization of women! How refreshing!

This is the kind of thing that makes me want to throw my laptop across the room and give up on the internet entirely. Like...huh, really, you're going to make fun of me for the societally conditioned chitchat patterns that have been drilled into me from birth? I'm a vacuous idiot because I feel like I need to apologize for everything all the time? Also, apparently I'm not allowed to comment on anyone's hair?! Oh, and they're using an iconic photo of an Afghani woman as their userpic? HOW CLEVER!

Ugh. Fuck these assholes, seriously.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 10:50 AM on December 20, 2011 [39 favorites]

Seriously, would it help if it was called "ShitHumansIncludingSomeButNotAllGirlsLikeTheOnesDepictedHereSay"?
posted by scrowdid at 10:53 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

initialization ---> infantilization

Thanks, spellcheck, you've really got my back this morning.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 10:53 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

How is this not obvious for some people?

I think what's not obvious is the difference between Trying to do something and Failing. SGS is trying to comment on the nature of cliches. It fails, and embraces them instead, especially in the videos. Calling the critics of this humor-less is rather missing where the blame should lie.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:53 AM on December 20, 2011 [6 favorites]

People say shit, y'know?
posted by jonmc at 10:54 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Nice rip-off of that famous pic, anyway.
posted by clvrmnky at 10:56 AM on December 20, 2011

ALSO, hi. Everyone who hates this should go check out my John Roberts post for examples of loving, clever caricatures of cliched female personalities.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:56 AM on December 20, 2011

That's mostly just a banal twitter. It's not even interesting enough to be sexist. Did I miss something?
posted by the young rope-rider at 10:57 AM on December 20, 2011 [6 favorites]

So lemme see if I've got my soft-liberal selective irony meter correctly calibrated here:

This stuff is inane, not funny and misogynistic, but "Stuff White People Like" is funny, ironic and perfectly fine.

Yep. Seems to be working okay.
posted by Decani at 10:57 AM on December 20, 2011 [6 favorites]

Shit Gay Guys Say

Now that one is funny, and I think it's obvious why.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:58 AM on December 20, 2011

Stuff White People Like hasn't gotten an FPP so obviously plenty of people find it offensive. I don't, for reasons which I would go into if it weren't a total bait-y derail.
posted by the young rope-rider at 10:59 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

If only the rest of the internet would listen.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:00 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

I really hate Stuff White People Like, decani, but the reason it's still basically okay and this is basically not okay has to do with where real-world power lies in both cases.

Mocking the powerful is comedy.

Mocking the oppressed is oppression.
posted by pts at 11:03 AM on December 20, 2011 [14 favorites]

SGS is trying to comment on the nature of cliches. It fails, and embraces them instead, especially in the videos.

Doesn't fail for me. It's pretty obvious that it's commenting on the nature of cliches, with the addition of silly drag. If it also embraces cliches, fine. Lots of satire embraces while poking fun.
posted by scrowdid at 11:04 AM on December 20, 2011

Lighten up, Francis.
posted by schoolgirl report at 11:04 AM on December 20, 2011 [7 favorites]

Mocking the oppressed is oppression.

Seriously, cry me a river.
posted by phaedon at 11:05 AM on December 20, 2011 [7 favorites]

I think SGS is just dull and lazy riffing on that Shit My Dad Says-spawned meme and relying on a lot of charity from the viewer to be enjoyable. There's really not much there to get particularly upset about. Although, that Afghan girl profile pic is a bit weird.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:06 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

The humor of "Shit Girls Say" comes entirely from the shock of recognition. But it's not directing this at valley girls or some other easy target of satire, which is what makes the difference - it's directed at you, your friends, pretty much every girl you know and your daily chitchat. So the (self-)recognition is especially strong, and it can be spot-on. But that's where my biggest problem with it lies. I want to be able to talk to people and have normal, every day conversations without mentally thinking "Oh! That's such a punchline, such a cliche." I have trouble with everyday chitchat as it is, I don't need that noise. I don't need to be reminded of gender divisions when people are just saying completely normal things in normal ways, and I don't want to feel "above it" as a man. Even if I don't, other people will unconsciously start thinking that way because of this meme. If you're a girl who talks this way, you don't need your very existence to be a punchline. That's why "Shit Girls Says" might come across as harmless, but there's a certain kind of toxicity under the surface that bugs me.
posted by naju at 11:06 AM on December 20, 2011 [21 favorites]

I guess I need to dig up that open letter I've been writing to my gay brothers and sisters about not being privileged, heterosexist assholes when trying to be funny. I also have to wonder about my own reaction to it. I thought it was just stupid and sexist but guys being guys when I first saw it. Now that I know it was made by gays, I'm really annoyed by it. Did they not have a single female friend to run this past before they did the Twitter & videos?
posted by crataegus at 11:06 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Like...huh, really, you're going to make fun of me for the societally conditioned chitchat patterns that have been drilled into me from birth?

Or, as people are suggesting above, it is a winking deconstruction of the societal architectures that want to instill these vocabularies into young women. The twitter stream falls flat, I agree, but there's no context there (though, I think, using the Afghan girl, one of the most iconic images of womanhood from the 20th Century, is a tipoff that this is tongue in cheek--I don't think there's any real suggestion that Sharbat Gula says "First of all, ew.")

I don't think the issue is whether people find it funny or not (I don't think it's a laff riot), but whether or not it enlightens anyone. The twitter not so much, but the videos have a bit more going for them. I don't think their goal is to make fun of girls.

This is pretty funny though.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 11:06 AM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

That's why "Shit Girls Says" might come across as harmless, but there's a certain kind of toxicity under the surface that bugs me.

This is my reaction to almost all observational comedy. Seinfeld, for example, came from the same place; the only difference was that they were actually funny.
posted by bonehead at 11:10 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

It's pretty obvious that it's commenting on the nature of cliches

Again, so what? It fails to turn that into comedy. It's just a bunch of references. Comedy is specific and contains insights.

Like in that Drew Droege as Cloe Sevingy video, or, even better, in a video of a woman satirizing her own gender.

You might say, well wait PA It is my opinion that it is funny isn't it just a matter of taste?

No. It isn't. I sentence you to watch 100 episodes of Whitney. God have mercy on your Soul.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:11 AM on December 20, 2011

You know what? Reading the tweets reminded me of how endearing women can be. Yes, they can be predictable, but I'm quite OK with that.
posted by davebush at 11:12 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

"If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college."
posted by kimota at 11:13 AM on December 20, 2011 [6 favorites]

These shoes suck.
posted by wcfields at 11:16 AM on December 20, 2011

not funny
posted by facetious at 11:17 AM on December 20, 2011

People say shit, y'know?

The premise of the much better Overheard in New York.

Anyway, on SGS, I think the criticisms are a lot more interesting than the thing itself. There are things worth looking at, like potential causes of the girlification of women's everyday speech (not all of which have to be nefarious, I think; it bothers me more that these phrases are repeated identically and sound pop culture-y than it does that they're kind of silly--not all speech has to be completely clear and rational) and where that comes from.

This snippet from the last link made my brain go in an interesting direction:

These "girls" in their 20's and 30's are middle and upper-middle class and in case you missed it, they're white.

Because I think it's true that a lot of these are "middle class white young women in the US phrases," but the actual real life usage is broader than that.

It kind of bothers me that a lot of these are supposed to be something I should either feel guilty and concerned about or laugh at for being inane, because so many of them are just innocuous and mundane. Most of them serve to be direct and clear about how the speaker feels at the moment, which I can see nothing wrong with; the sameiness of the phrasing is worth exploring to an extent, but mocking them just feels...meh.
posted by byanyothername at 11:19 AM on December 20, 2011 [5 favorites]

So lemme see if I've got my soft-liberal selective irony meter correctly calibrated here:

This stuff is inane, not funny and misogynistic, but "Stuff White People Like" is funny, ironic and perfectly fine.

You've accidentally calibrated your "glib dismissalometer."
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:19 AM on December 20, 2011 [14 favorites]

Reading the tweets reminded me of how endearing women can be. Yes, they can be predictable, but I'm quite OK with that.

.....so can men?

So can most people?

Why is it that women need to be singled out for being oh-so-hilariously (or endearingly) inane?

It's the gender essentialization that's really tweaking me here.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 11:19 AM on December 20, 2011 [8 favorites]

I thought it was just stupid and sexist but guys being guys when I first saw it. Now that I know it was made by gays, I'm really annoyed by it. Did they not have a single female friend to run this past before they did the Twitter & videos?

Straight guys don't get a pass for sexism just because they're straight.

Of course gay guys don't get a pass for sexism either.
posted by the young rope-rider at 11:20 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Reading the tweets reminded me of how endearing women can be. Yes, they can be predictable, but I'm quite OK with that.

Haha, are you consciously trying to poke the people getting annoyed at this?
posted by iotic at 11:21 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

I do some of those things.
Hopefully I do not combine it with the gaze of some creature with the brain the size of a walnut
posted by angrycat at 11:22 AM on December 20, 2011

Narrative Priorities: "
Why is it that women need to be singled out for being oh-so-hilariously (or endearingly) inane?"

Because it's a couple of gay guys that don't view women as anything other than those people that are silly and in their view string together non-sequitur quips of their inner dialog?

It's not as if Andrew Dice Clay did a twitter called "ShitBroadsSay"
posted by wcfields at 11:23 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

This just in...Henny Youngman declared a misogynist.
posted by davebush at 11:25 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

"Man, don't people get it? It's hilarious! I mean, 'shit girls say' isn't about how all girls are stupid; it's just the stupid ones we're making fun of, maybe even just a way of being stupid that's exclusive to girls. It's just like I was saying the other day about the n-word – I don't use it for all black people, just the bad ones."

Is it clear to everyone why the above is a wrong-headed and even dangerous line of argument? There is an obvious and immediate implication that all girls talk this way; one can say that that implication is satirical, but that doesn't really matter, as it is not obvious or immediate.

This is making fun of women. That's all. And that's sexism.
posted by koeselitz at 11:25 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

It's just a bunch of references. Comedy is specific and contains insights.

A bunch of references can be funny too, no? I'm betting Robot Chicken and Family Guy fans think so.

At any rate, the insight, as mentioned above, is that people, including girls, often say vapid cliches that don't really mean anything. Using specific phrases as examples, they illustrate that.
posted by scrowdid at 11:25 AM on December 20, 2011

scrowdid: “At any rate, the insight, as mentioned above, is that people, including girls, often say vapid cliches that don't really mean anything. Using specific phrases as examples, they illustrate that.”

But it's not called "shit people including girls say." It's called "shit girls say." The "people including girls" thing is not stated or even implied at all.
posted by koeselitz at 11:29 AM on December 20, 2011

Again, so what? It fails to turn that into comedy.

Wrong. So wrong it hurts. If people are laughing, it's comedy. Lots of people find this funny. Their not wrong just because you don't like their reasons for laughing.
posted by 23skidoo at 11:30 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

davebush: “You know what? Reading the tweets reminded me of how endearing women can be. Yes, they can be predictable, but I'm quite OK with that.”

Is this a hideous attempt at a joke? This is probably the most sexist thing I've read all day.
posted by koeselitz at 11:30 AM on December 20, 2011 [12 favorites]

"Man, don't people get it? It's hilarious! I mean, 'shit girls say' isn't about how all girls are stupid; it's just the stupid ones we're making fun of, maybe even just a way of being stupid that's exclusive to girls. It's just like I was saying the other day about the n-word – I don't use it for all black people, just the bad ones."

Thinking this is hilarious does not necessitate finding women who use these phrases to be stupid. The humor can be found in realizing that certain phrases are more commonplace than you thought.
posted by 23skidoo at 11:35 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

A bunch of references can be funny too, no?

No. No they cannot. They have to be surprising and upend convention in some way, because that is what makes things funny. As the excellent third linked blog response states:


I’m not trying to invalidate the fact that people find it funny. I understand the “Oh my god, I totally do that!” and “Oh my god, women totally do that!” reactions, and could even give you a bunch of theory on it if you wanted. (You don’t.)...

The video is potentially funny because it’s true. But it’s not the capital-T Truth, which is that gender roles are so fucking arbitrary it is both laughable and cryable. It’s a trite variation on the ”guys do X, girls do Y” jokes you hear from comedians all the time. And again, no one’s saying this video is trying to change the world. It’s not. It’s pretty clearly trying to cash in on the Twitter-feed-as-cash-cow idea. Fair enough....

And I think what’s at the root of my irritation with the “Shit Girls Say” video. It’s not meta-humor. It’s not exaggerated enough to be funny. It’s just a dude dressing up as a woman, imitating a wide swath of annoying (if often true) behaviors. A dude making fun of women — which matters, just as it matters when, say, white people imitate black people “humorously.” And I don’t think he’s trying to undercut the stereotype, so it sort of feels like he’s buying into essentialist notions of gender? A little?

A lot, I would contend. In fact, I think videos like these are WORSE than actually openly sexist jokes. Because an expert sexist comedian like, say, Tracy Morgan, is inherently also making fun of himself for feeling that way and being dumb, while these videos naturally set themselves up as superior. And of course it all pales in comparison of true super double meta-satire, as in Community's brilliant self-flagellating Glee parody on its own portrayal of young women.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:38 AM on December 20, 2011 [5 favorites]

I don't see anything morally wrong with SGS, I just didn't find it funny personally.

pts
Mocking the powerful is comedy.

Mocking the oppressed is oppression.

As several of the analysis links mentioned, SGS is not mocking women, it's mocking a very specific group of white middle-to-upper-middle class women in their 20s and early 30s. On the sliding scale of powerful to oppressed*, this group is pretty far from the bottom. They're (relative to the rest of the world) wealthy, educated, and professional or soon to be professional.

Are educated middle class american white women in a wealthy country oppressed? Sure, but they're also powerful. Does this make SGS both comedy and oppression? Maybe. As I said, I didn't find it funny, so I can't really judge the comedy.

*DISCLAIMER: The sliding scale of powerful to oppressed does not exist. "I'm more oppressed than you" is a terrible game to play. Nobody should ever use this metaphor. Including me. Sorry.
posted by yeolcoatl at 11:38 AM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

yeolcoatl: “As several of the analysis links mentioned, SGS is not mocking women, it's mocking a very specific group of white middle-to-upper-middle class women in their 20s and early 30s.”

But it isn't called "shit a very specific group of white middle-to-upper-middle-class women in their 20s and early 30s say." It's called "shit girls say." It does not even imply that it means anything other than all girls.
posted by koeselitz at 11:41 AM on December 20, 2011

I saw these videos this morning and my first reaction was that this was not so much "Shit Girls Say" as it was "Shit that might be vaguely funny coming out of the mouth of a gay man in bad drag but actually isn't". I see I'm not the only one that thought this. I also find it quite sexist. It's not that the idea is necessarily bad -I mean it could be hilarious if it was written and performed by women- but as it is it does come across as sexist and lazy.
posted by ob at 11:41 AM on December 20, 2011

"If people are laughing, it's comedy."

It may be comedy in name, but still not funny. Sometimes there is a big fat Applause sign, real or metaphorically, that causes one to react as if something is funny when it ain't, in the same way that you might tear up at a cotton commercial but not in the same way you'd cry at Casablanca.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:44 AM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

"If people are laughing, it's comedy."

That's what that kid who stuffed me in the locker told me. And it was true. People were laughing. At least, he was.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:46 AM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

Sorry for spamming, this is just one of the few things in life I care about I guess. The only thing I hate more than PC warriors coming down on creative, offensive comic work is cynical hacks abusing the methods of comic timing and technique to make crappy, manipulative shit. Comedy, to me, isn't a trifling matter of taste. It is life and it is death. I'll back out slowly now. Good luck.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:47 AM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

This is entirely anecdotal, but of all my friends on Facebook, the only people I've seen sharing this video have been women.
posted by EmGeeJay at 12:12 PM on December 20, 2011

I thought it was kind of funny, but not really worth spending more than 30 seconds thinking about.
posted by empath at 12:21 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

@koeselitz
People tend to socialize with people of similar economic class. For the author, working from a biased sample of "Only hanging out with people who are like me," this probably is pretty close to "all girls."

Undermining my own point, SGS is also not called "Shit ALL Girls Say." It's called "Shit Girls Say" Which could just as easily be interpreted as "Shit SOME Girls Say," Depending on how charitable you're feeling.

Lastly -- undermining my first point a second time -- I think everyone recognizes that this is a cultural artifact. Nobody (including you) thinks "SGS" means "Shit ALL Girls Say" because there are plenty of girls around the world who have different cultural and social backgrounds. Many of them don't speak any English. I don't think anyone interprets "Shit Girls Say" to include "Shit poverty stricken 2 year old females in rural China say." Once we've established that "Shit Girls Say" is in fact "Shit a subset of Girls Say," It's just a matter of identifying that subset, which is open to interpretation. From the content of the posts and the cultural context in which they occur (twitter) many people, including the linked to critics, interpret the subset as being educated, upper-middle class, American women in their 20s to early 30s, and I think there is very good evidence that that is spot on.
posted by yeolcoatl at 12:22 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

If this was 'shit my sister says', would anybody be complaining?
posted by empath at 12:24 PM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

This is entirely anecdotal, but of all my friends on Facebook, the only people I've seen sharing this video have been women.

Women are the ones who are put in the position of wanting to show how they're not joy-killing feminists who hate fun, or who might feel the need to distance themselves from (and talk about how they're not) "that kind" of girl.

Part of what I hate about this kind of thing is how, when combined with various women's strategies for getting by in a world that frequently doesn't take them seriously, it ends up being insidiously poisonous. Like, I have too much work to do to get into a whole thing about internalized misogyny and the pressure on women to not seem too "girly" and so on, but suffice it to say that our relationship with stuff like SGS is often complicated.

And then guys like you come in and say stuff like, "well my girl friends liked it so that means it's fine/you're just a jerk/I'm not a bad person for liking it, too/etc."
posted by Narrative Priorities at 12:24 PM on December 20, 2011 [17 favorites]

If this was 'shit my sister says', would anybody be complaining?

Uh....yes? If it was otherwise identical? Because then I'd be like, "Your sister sounds like a normal person, why is this supposed to be a comedy twitter?"
posted by Narrative Priorities at 12:25 PM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

Women are the ones who are put in the position of wanting to show how they're not joy-killing feminists who hate fun, or who might feel the need to distance themselves from (and talk about how they're not) "that kind" of girl.

Maybe. Or maybe it's more one of those "this is funny when it's in a 'we're laughing at ourselves' context, but not funny when it's in a 'they're laughing at us' context." I imagine that blacks who laughed uproariously at the Chris Rock "Niggas vs. Black People" bit when it first aired find it pretty tedious and unfunny to constantly hear white people quoting when they're scolding black people for failing to magically undo centuries of oppression.

I find it hard to imagine a woman sending this video to another woman as some kind of anxious attempt to badge herself as "not a joy-killing feminist."
posted by yoink at 12:40 PM on December 20, 2011

If this was 'shit my sister says', would anybody be complaining?

The only constant in this world is complaint
posted by MangyCarface at 12:41 PM on December 20, 2011 [7 favorites]

Oh, that, and what shit girls will say
posted by MangyCarface at 12:42 PM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

Somebody should do a Shit Mefites Say. I'm just saying.
posted by jonmc at 12:43 PM on December 20, 2011 [4 favorites]

Is this a hideous attempt at a joke? This is probably the most sexist thing I've read all day.

Wow, ease up. I meant every word of it and it was completely not sexism, regardless of your take on it. Women and men can be predictable (in different ways) and there's sometimes humor in that. Holy shit, relax.
posted by davebush at 12:54 PM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm always amused by the narcissism of people who really, truly believe they can declare something "funny" or "not funny".

It's a matter of personal taste. You may believe it's based upon objective, measurable criteria, or that it denotes huge moral values, but in fact: humor is rooted in social tension, and often works by poking us just beyond our comfort zones.

Thus, it doesn't surprise me that many women find this funny (such as EmGeeJay's FB friends), while others find it offensive. Those aren't even exclusive groupings. The worry men have of being accused of sexism is exactly why some very equality-minded men will chuckle at this secretly, while rushing to consciously condemn it (tension within themselves about how to react to a social signal).
posted by IAmBroom at 1:05 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

yeolcoatl: “Lastly -- undermining my first point a second time -- I think everyone recognizes that this is a cultural artifact.”

That's not at all a warranted assumption – why would it be? How can you really say, 'well, I'm sure everyone will get this little subtlety that is neither stated nor implied'? Like I said above, leaving something this important and possibly destructive open to interpretation and hoping everybody gets it doesn't work. Because, even assuming that people understand that it's just a subset of girls, not all girls...

“Once we've established that "Shit Girls Say" is in fact "Shit a subset of Girls Say," It's just a matter of identifying that subset, which is open to interpretation. From the content of the posts and the cultural context in which they occur (twitter) many people, including the linked to critics, interpret the subset as being educated, upper-middle class, American women in their 20s to early 30s, and I think there is very good evidence that that is spot on.”

... and that is just as big a problem. For us males, this isn't personal, so it's an academic matter: 'which demographic of girls is this referring to? What cultural signifiers can we look at to determine this?' And that question is all fine and good, it's very comfortable for us to ponder what the answer might be.

The problem is – for anyone who thinks of herself as a girl, or even thinks she might be referred to by this, the question is personal. The immediate question is not 'which demographic does this refer to?' The immediate question is: 'am I like this? Are they making fun of me? Am I doing something terrible and worthy of approbation? Is this just another case where society is pointing at me and saying I'm stupid?'

And there is no clear or obvious answer to that question. If you're a girl, you try to hedge by saying that obviously you don't talk that way, or at least you don't think you do. But there will be doubt.

And in that moment when every single woman who reads this thing is forced to question whether she personally is the object of mockery – every single one, if only for a moment – in that moment of self-doubt and uncertainty lies much of the damage this causes.
posted by koeselitz at 1:13 PM on December 20, 2011 [5 favorites]

Here's a profile of the guys who created this thing.

“When we started we were a little worried that people would find it sexist and we are really careful about what we tweet. We try not to put anything about violence or (that is) sexist or mean spirited. We kind of take a reverential tone. We know that the funny part to us in the tweets is the complexity of them and the way they can be read, and we respect that. It’s more of an observation. It feels pretty benign and everybody’s in on the joke. We’re just happy that the tone comes through.”

posted by emilycardigan at 1:19 PM on December 20, 2011

davebush: “You know what? Reading the tweets reminded me of how endearing women can be. Yes, they can be predictable, but I'm quite OK with that.”

me: “Is this a hideous attempt at a joke? This is probably the most sexist thing I've read all day.”

davebrush: “Wow, ease up. I meant every word of it and it was completely not sexism, regardless of your take on it. Women and men can be predictable (in different ways) and there's sometimes humor in that. Holy shit, relax.”

Okay. I want to make it clear that I'm not saying you're a sexist or some raving misogynist or anything like that. This isn't personal.

The only issue really is that that really is a patronizing comment to make; I understand that might not be obvious to you, and that's clearly not how you meant it, but it is. To see this, try substituting "black people" for "women" in the comment; calling a whole race or gender "predictable," even when you're ostensibly saying something positive, is patronizing and, while it's a subtle form, it is a real example of prejudice. I mention the example of white-on-black racism because this has actually been very common in white-on-black racism historically; there are plenty of "positive" and "affable" and "affectionate" portrayals of black people as bumbling, lovable buffoons, big nagging mammys, or what have you. A lot of women are likely to bristle at being called "predictable," and I think they have a case.

I know this was just a comment, and it may seem like a harmless one. I'm only making it an issue because I think these little things we say have a huge impact on the people around us.
posted by koeselitz at 1:19 PM on December 20, 2011 [5 favorites]

I got the go ahead.

Just to be crystal clear - we did not pre-approve this post, we said it wasn't against the rules to repost the Shit Girls Say link in another FPP

posted by jessamyn at 1:28 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

I just have to wonder how hostile the gay community would be if my sister and I, as straight women did "things fags say", and posted stereotyped comments that do not represent how the gay community actually talks to one another, but was instead drawn from the Hollywood "queer" box of dialog. Because that is how this comes across to me. (Fag is used as the same sort of dismissive appellation as calling grown women "girls", not as a word I would normally use...unless I meant a smoke.)
posted by dejah420 at 1:37 PM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

Sorry, Jessamyn; I didn't mean to give that impression.
posted by emilycardigan at 1:40 PM on December 20, 2011

Men calling grown women "girls" is really, really not the same sort of hateful epithet that straight people calling gay men "fags" is.
posted by sea change at 1:42 PM on December 20, 2011 [5 favorites]

It's always a matter of concern whether a joke aimed at a particular group is being discriminatory or unfair in its overstatement or if it's a case of a comedian using the license to bend reality that comedy requires in order to make us laugh. My litmus test for whether a joke is racist/sexist/etc. is whether or not the humor of it comes from making the listener feel superior to the group that it's targeting. I don't feel like there's a judgment or hatred of women implied through "Shit girls say", except perhaps in the title.
posted by deathpanels at 1:42 PM on December 20, 2011

That globe and mail article was pretty weak. Here is the argument, quoted

"This is the irritant: Private talk is just that – private.

This meme exposes things generally said anxiously, in confidence, in trust and exploits the unspoken covenant between speaker and listener (the gay friends who love them?)."

Yeah, well, so is 100% of the material for every single domestic comedy ever
posted by neil pierce at 1:44 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Wow, a couple of gay men engaging in misogynistic mocking and initialization of women! How refreshing!

Are they gay? How do we know? Do you have a cite?
posted by ericb at 1:53 PM on December 20, 2011

ericb: “Are they gay? How do we know? Do you have a cite?”

Um...

from post: “Shit Girls Say, a humorous twitter account created by Graydon Sheppard and his partner Kyle Humphrey... ”
posted by koeselitz at 1:56 PM on December 20, 2011

Answered my own questions now that I've read the article which emilycardigan posted.

Sheppard says they decided to do the film in drag in part because they thought it would look funnier and also take some of the edge off. Humphrey and Sheppard are a couple. Sheppard says that gives them perspective on the things girls say and is likely one reason women enjoy their work.

“Coming from a gay man, it’s a little less threatening than, say, a guy or even a woman acting the part. We kind of have an alliance with women, we’re privy to their conversations. We grew up around women. We also have the advantage of being on the outside looking in,” he says.

posted by ericb at 1:57 PM on December 20, 2011

Further citation, from the followup article that the poster posted in a later comment above:

“‘Coming from a gay man, it’s a little less threatening than, say, a guy or even a woman acting the part. We kind of have an alliance with women, we’re privy to their conversations. We grew up around women. We also have the advantage of being on the outside looking in,’ he says.”

I think that's a very, very debatable sentiment he's expressing right there, by the way.
posted by koeselitz at 1:58 PM on December 20, 2011

Heh, yep.
posted by koeselitz at 1:58 PM on December 20, 2011

I find myself fascinated by the main character in the videos. The twitter itself is completely uninteresting to me, but watching Mr. Sheppard acting them out is interesting for me to watch. The drag may have been kind of half-assed, but I think he did a remarkable job in terms of posture and carriage.
posted by that girl at 2:09 PM on December 20, 2011

Mildly entertaining videos about a meme nobody will remember in two weeks. Offended? Awesome, be offended. Not offended? Awesome, don't be offended. Being offended that other people are not offended by something as subjective as humour?

Find the hole where the Internet gets into your house and plug it up. Buy a shotgun and if the Internet ever tries to get into your house again, shoot it! SHOOT IT DEAD!
posted by moneyjane at 2:16 PM on December 20, 2011 [5 favorites]

oh hey look it's another odious sexism thing done by dipshits on the internet, i fucking love this shit, i love that this kind of shit is even up for debate instead of being called out as trashy b.s whooo hooo
posted by beefetish at 2:51 PM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

pts: I really hate Stuff White People Like, decani, but the reason it's still basically okay and this is basically not okay has to do with where real-world power lies in both cases.

Mocking the powerful is comedy.

Mocking the oppressed is oppression

Wow, that's seriously uptight. Does everything have to be a Gender Studies rumble waiting to happen?

yeolcoatl: *DISCLAIMER: The sliding scale of powerful to oppressed does not exist. "I'm more oppressed than you" is a terrible game to play.

Word. Also, nthing that this video was mildly amusing at best to me- a guy- but lordy did it blow up on my Facebook feed last week among the 20s-30s white college educated Seattle women. These are the same people who say among other verbal tics and idiosyncracies "cray cray" (crazy) and "totes" (totally) a lot, in person and in the written word.
posted by hincandenza at 3:38 PM on December 20, 2011

beefetish: oh hey look it's another odious sexism thing done by dipshits on the internet, i fucking love this shit, i love that this kind of shit is even up for debate instead of being called out as trashy b.s whooo hooo

Fuck, people - it's humour. It's subjective. It's light-hearted. It's not sexist, nor does it set the women's movement back. No need to ride in on your neo-feminist high horse and dump a steaming rant into a thread without bothering to check your grammar and punctuation. Way to set the literacy movement back.
posted by gman at 3:46 PM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

I posted this on Facebook and within the hour it had been shared by 10 of my female friends who all found it hilarious. Thats not even counting the other instances I saw of people posting it (mostly female).

So quite a lot women are finding it hilarious and somewhat truthful. Are they traitors to the cause?
posted by AzzaMcKazza at 3:47 PM on December 20, 2011

Feel free to make 'Shit Guys Say' as well. No one is stopping you.
posted by AzzaMcKazza at 3:47 PM on December 20, 2011

I'm making a 'Shit Handsome Black Guys Say' site. It'll feature fried chicken recipes too!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:51 PM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

Feel free to make 'Shit Guys Say' as well. No one is stopping you.

Done and done, oh, and done.
posted by ericb at 3:51 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Well, I'll see that and raise you that thirty of my female Facebook friends found it vile and sexist.

I win!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:53 PM on December 20, 2011 [4 favorites]

Thirty-four my black guy friends thought the woman in the video was ugly. All but two of them were skeeved out when they learned it was a guy.

I'm not surprised about Tyrone, but Roger? Did't see that one.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:57 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

4 out of 5 cardiologists enjoy "Shit Anesthesiologists Say", but only because the videos play up to the typical anesthesiologist stereotypes.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:01 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Wow, that's seriously uptight. Does everything have to be a Gender Studies rumble waiting to happen?

Probably not. But I'd say, if you want to avoid one, dismissing people's criticism as "uptight" is probably the wrong approach.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 4:15 PM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

"The League"'s dialogue is pretty much "shit guys say" to me.
posted by Space Coyote at 4:17 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Worst Professor Ever is really interesting, so, thanks for that, at least.
posted by crush-onastick at 4:36 PM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

Don't say no shit won't be no shit.
posted by Burhanistan at 4:37 PM on December 20, 2011

What girls say when they're drunk, by the often-but-not-always hilarious Jenna Marbles, twice mentioned before.
posted by IAmBroom at 5:06 PM on December 20, 2011

You know what, the last post was shitty and all and this won't be popular but some of these are sort of funny. I mean, the way he says "I kind of want a hot dog" is sort of genius.
posted by nathancaswell at 5:15 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

You know what, fuck it, this shit is funny. I am throwing my hat in the ring. Funny.
posted by nathancaswell at 5:20 PM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

dismissing people's criticism as "uptight" is probably the wrong approach.

Sometimes a spade, truly is.

Done yt and done yt , oh, and done yt .

"I'm not cold." heh.
posted by smidgen at 5:36 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Stuff White People Like hasn't gotten an FPP so obviously plenty of people find it offensive.

From what I recall, it kept getting posted and deleted, though I could be thinking of another "Stuff....People Like" site.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:40 PM on December 20, 2011

Err, (post) too soon.

I didn't find the FPP hilarious, just amusing and really funny in spots. I'd say ericb's second link was funnier overall. And, yea, there might be interesting meat here for gender studies, but being completely offended? I don't see any clear justification for that -- wierd oppressed category comparisons aside.
posted by smidgen at 5:44 PM on December 20, 2011

And then guys like you come in and say stuff like, "well my girl friends liked it so that means it's fine/you're just a jerk/I'm not a bad person for liking it, too/etc."

I wasn't trying to justify the series' existence or call anyone a jerk. I think the videos are pretty funny, but they also made me feel a little uneasy, and I was surprised that I was seeing them mostly circulated by girls, among girls (considering those discomfiting elements).

_{Get these chips away from me}
posted by EmGeeJay at 5:54 PM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

I saw the twitter the other day and was really weirded out by it. The posts themselves didn't seem to suggest the slightest hint of irony. Like the tweets basically just look like someone going "here is an exhaustingly long list of all the stupid, inane things girls say. Aren't they stupid and inane?"

And then it has a picture of an Afghan girl as its profile pic and like... people have to know that Afghan culture is totally fucked in the head when it comes to women, right?

So it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Haven't watched the videos, don't really want to.

Sometimes a spade, truly is.

This poorly constructed rejoinder works just as well for anyone arguing that it's sexist bullshit. They're just calling a spade a spade, right?

Basically for me the "it's just a joke!" defense has never worked really well when I'm angry about something because yes, I know it's a joke and it sure seems like I'm the butt of it.

I'm not, in this case, but I think you'd have hard time arguing that no one reading or watching these is laughing at women.
posted by kavasa at 5:59 PM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

I'm not crazy about this. I just got comfortable referring to myself as a "woman" a couple of years ago, not because I haven't been a grown-ass specimen of one for more than a decade but because all my sort-of unexamined associations with the word were gross: lame, weak, too sincere, passive, not powerful, secondary, not cool or tough or an interesting character. My problem, right? But I didn't make it all up out of my own head, or just get it from watching my mom or whatever. It's all out there for absorption. These days I watch so little TV that I mostly think about What Women Mean to Other People only when I wonder whether I should use my first name or my initials when (let's say when, for the sake of argument) I write a book. Out of sheer pissiness I'd probably go with the former, but I know that people will approach it differently if they think a girl or a lady or a woman or whoever wrote it, and that sucks. I don't write girly shit. Fuck that noise.

So this twitter feed for sure appeals to the place my sense of scorn mostly used to be. I know some of the women who like it enjoy looking down on "the kind of girl" who says whatever girls are supposed to say. And I guess if you don't mind being a girl, if you have either risen above such concerns or like the role, you can identify with it and be more playful about it. But I would assume that most girls who like it for that reason think a fellow girl is writing it, and that at least a few might at least raise their eyebrows if they knew otherwise. How can the author's identity affect the raw text if there wasn't any questionable material there to start with? Because surely it's bad form to write about what girls are (and never put anything insane and obviously non-girly in there) when you're not a girl. Unless they're oppressing you or something.
posted by Adventurer at 6:22 PM on December 20, 2011 [4 favorites]

This just in...Henny Youngman declared a misogynist.

I assume you must be referring to "take my wife, please" specifically, because if we were to delve into the material of any male comedian who started in the 1940s, there are probably going to be a fair number of misogynistic jokes there. So if you're talking about "take my wife, please," then no, that isn't remotely the same thing, doesn't even resemble it enough to make for an on-topic joke. The joke in "Take my wife, please" is that he says "please" when we were expecting to hear "for example." OK, the guy doesn't want his wife around for some reason, maybe she's a harridan, maybe he never gets laid anymore, maybe he's playing on some cliched male resentment and certain sexist assumptions, but he doesn't actually say a word about what she's like or what he doesn't like. Meanwhile the twitter feed we are complaining about here is called "Shit Girls Say," which is more like "Shit Black Dudes Say" or "Shit Lesbians Say" than "I Don't Like My Wife Anymore But Won't Tell You Anything Specific About Her or Any Other Woman."
posted by Adventurer at 6:41 PM on December 20, 2011

Since there seems to be a dichotomy of "it's funny! it can't be offensive" and "no, it's offensive, it can't be funny!" here, allow me to BLOW MINDS with the suggestion that it's possible for something to be simultaneously funny and problematic. You can laugh and then reflect on why it's damaging / uncomfortable-making / maybe not such a great sentiment. (Just a suggestion)
posted by naju at 7:06 PM on December 20, 2011 [5 favorites]

This poorly constructed rejoinder works just as well for anyone arguing that it's sexist bullshit

Fair enough, but no one said it was an argument, just a statement of opinion. How about "Is not!" :-) More opinion (it's all I got!).

You have to be a bit uptight to travel the many steps to get to sexist bullshit from this. It's really sexist only in the most technical way. It's not even powerful (good) enough to get offended by. To get from this to a enforcing a harmful gender stereotype feels like being afraid of your own shadow.

I'm not, in this case, but I think you'd have hard time arguing that no one reading or watching these is laughing at women.

Yeah, I would have a hard time -- because that's the point of the joke[1]. It appears to be designed to make fun of women. Oh well, such is the nature of jokes. Most of the women I associate with don't do everything on the list, but I don't wear a pocket protector either.

[1] Although I have to say I don't really get some of it ("did I lock the door" seems like something everyone says/does).
posted by smidgen at 7:42 PM on December 20, 2011

From what I recall, it kept getting posted and deleted, though I could be thinking of another "Stuff....People Like" site.


You are correct! I assumed it got deleted because people complained/flags were flagged.
posted by the young rope-rider at 7:52 PM on December 20, 2011

"What's my password??". Not getting involved in this hot-button debate, but that is funny.
posted by solmyjuice at 8:33 PM on December 20, 2011

Women denouncing this comes out sounding exactly like the mockery: "I'm not going to acknowledge that I'm actually mad about this so I'll just say it isn't funny and that it is annoying." and that means: "I hate it when people make fun of my idiosyncrasies; take me as seriously as I do!"

Of all the offensive, tasteless, and fucked-up shit on the internet this is some of the most benign and lighthearted. Learn to take a joke.

Retaliate with "Guys Are Insensitive Pricks" and we'll probably think it's funny.
posted by hellslinger at 9:15 PM on December 20, 2011 [3 favorites]

Okay. I think you are an insensitive prick. LOLZ
posted by the young rope-rider at 10:01 PM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]

[Maybe people can step back and not make this personal? We've had a lot of "you are an asshole because you don't feel like I do about X-issue" lately, and it's pretty toxic for discussion."]
posted by taz at 10:53 PM on December 20, 2011 [1 favorite]

Just because we're not as indignant as you doesn't make us insensitive jerks. There is something funny and interesting to be found here.
posted by hellslinger at 1:49 AM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]

You are the one who said it would be funny...? Is it not funny?
posted by the young rope-rider at 2:04 AM on December 21, 2011

I see what you did there, rope-rider. How does it feel?
posted by hellslinger at 2:15 AM on December 21, 2011

So, you understand how saying something is a joke doesn't automatically mean that people need to LOL at it and not be offended or pissed. Awesome.
posted by the young rope-rider at 2:17 AM on December 21, 2011

Oh wait, I get it now, you thought by taking my 'challenge' to make a video about silly little things that guys might do literally, that you'd show me in a compromising "if you can't take it, don't dish it out" kind of predicament.

Make something funny that gets lots of views and the impress us with your intellect and cleverness by making it not offensive to anyone.
posted by hellslinger at 2:19 AM on December 21, 2011

[aaaaand... more between you two can go to email, 'k? ]
posted by taz at 2:21 AM on December 21, 2011

Somebody should do a Shit Mefites Say.

Good God. I can see it. It would basically be "DTMFA" and "TSA is so stupid" and "My kid is so much smarter than his teacher" and "Lady Gaga is the greatest."
posted by anniecat at 6:35 AM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]

I think you're being an insensitive jerk hellslinger. And I guess you are also a guy. I don't think it's funny at all though. In fact you're just ticking me off. The videos were just annoying and not funny, but comments like yours push me to anger. Who are you to think you can read my mind dude? I mean, what is up with this:

Women denouncing this comes out sounding exactly like the mockery: "I'm not going to acknowledge that I'm actually mad about this so I'll just say it isn't funny and that it is annoying." and that means: "I hate it when people make fun of my idiosyncrasies; take me as seriously as I do!"

I have no problem acknowledging my anger. I don't pretend not to be mad when I am. You don't get to speak for me. The videos didn't make me angry, I just found them unfunny and annoying. I'm not lying or pretending when I say that. You though, and a bunch of other dudes in here, tick me off. Why can't you understand that it isn't funny to be the butt of jokes told by people who don't know you or care about you?

I found the videos annoying because it seemed to me that men (boys?) can say and do all of the stuff in the video. "Something's wrong with my computer"? My dad said that to me last night. "Can you do me a favor?" Really? There wasn't a single thing in the videos that is specific to "girls" so it was just annoying to me.

I found the videos unfunny because I am a girl but did not recognize myself at all in the videos, so I guess there was no anchor for me. The "humor" bore no resemblance to my reality. Didn't fit me or my mother or any of my female friends. At first I just didn't get it at all. I'm hard-pressed to think of any women I know who are like that person in the video. Have I ever heard a "girl" criticize her outfits or wonder what her password is? Yeah? And? My brother and I get silly and even squee and hug when we see each other (especially if one of our sports teams has won something big recently).

It's my belief that there is nothing good about stereotypes and they do not exist to reveal any truths about the group being stereotyped. That's not their purpose. Their purpose is to keep the "other" in its place: a little less human, less worthwhile, less serious, less powerful than the group doing the stereotyping.
posted by Danila at 6:58 AM on December 21, 2011 [6 favorites]

Danila: It's my belief that there is nothing good about stereotypes and they do not exist to reveal any truths about the group being stereotyped.

I dunno; I'm pretty good with money.
posted by gman at 7:02 AM on December 21, 2011 [2 favorites]

Why can't you understand that it isn't funny to be the butt of jokes told by people who don't know you or care about you?

Maybe because there's truckloads of evidence of women finding this funny (especially when they find something they've actually said), and not caring that the jokes were written by men.
posted by 23skidoo at 7:52 AM on December 21, 2011

Maybe because there's truckloads of evidence of women finding this funny

If that's true, then why not leave it to women to say so themselves? Like, it's kind of interesting that in this thread we have several men coming in and saying "WOMEN THINK THIS IS FUNNY SO YOU'RE WRONG" and then having their comments favorited by...other men? Like, if you're so worried about women and their opinions of this issue being misrepresented, maybe don't yell at women who come here to talk about their opinions?

Unless this isn't actually about women or what they do or don't think, in which case maybe leave us out of it.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 10:57 AM on December 21, 2011 [2 favorites]

As a woman, I think the videos are a little bit funny, but only the littlest bit. I think the twitter feed is not funny at all, and find the use of that iconic picture insensitive and distasteful.

I'm fascinated by the fact that the videos are made by gay men, and that I recognize a few speech tics of my own in there, though I'm ambivalent about their relationship to my gender. Men and genderqueer people have, after all, also been known to ask if something is or isn't hummus. I like how campy it is.

I don't like the retaliatory tumblr, because it implicitly argues that girls who occasionally mutter things cliched aloud are "vacuous shit heads," and hating on 'bimbos' is still hating on women, so I'm not down.

I also think that the campy quality of the videos, and the fact that this every(white/middleclass/heterosexual)woman is played by a guy in drag has the potential to simultaneously celebrate and critique the way that these utterances play out in a complexly nuanced world. I think it fails, so far, but the potential is there.
posted by emilycardigan at 11:32 AM on December 21, 2011

If that's true, then why not leave it to women to say so themselves?

Because it's unreasonable to believe that every Metafilter thread should be visited by a random sampling of all kinds of people. If this appeals to the kind of people who are underrepresented at Metafilter, then the people who you're talking about aren't going to be here to say "Hey, I'm a woman who likes this."

Like, if you're so worried about women and their opinions of this issue being misrepresented, maybe don't yell at women who come here to talk about their opinions?

I'm not yelling at anyone, I'm calmly pointing out out that there are lots of women who like this.
posted by 23skidoo at 12:52 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]

Shaming people into thinking something is funny is a brilliant comedic strategy.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:21 PM on December 21, 2011

Lots of women liked Sex in the City. Doesn't mean that the show wasn't shite,
posted by angrycat at 1:30 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]

Another interesting thing on SGS, and what everyone else says about it:

Hitchcock once said that a great story was life with all the dull parts cut out: what makes Girls so hypnotic is the sharp precision of writers and creators Kyle Humphrey and Graydon Sheppard in capturing and presenting small-talk—those Hitchcockian dull parts—as the main focus instead. There isn’t a better time for the idea, firmly rooted in the status update era that rewards both instancy and brevity.
...

The lines pulled from context reduce people to something akin to a reality-television contestants—especially the one who announces he or she “is not here to make friends!” with a false sense of autonomy: there’s a horror to realizing you speak off a script you didn’t even know existed. And for many people that script, written by gender norms, is flawlessly executed by Sheppard’s hair-fiddling, wide-eyed, faux-coy character.

posted by emilycardigan at 1:54 PM on December 21, 2011 [3 favorites]

Lots of women liked Sex in the City. Doesn't mean that the show wasn't shite,

So true. And I remember when I first joined FB all my girlfriends were like, "I'm Carrie, you're so and so, etc." to each other. And none of it was for real.

It was probably only because of SITC that I tried a cosmopolitan. I think that's why I did. I can't remember. I know it was only because of some TV show I saw where a Manhattan cool lady ordered a cosmopolitan and I guess I mixed it up with Neopolitan ice cream and thought it would taste like Neopolitan ice cream, but it didn't so I couldn't drink more than two sips. It was way disappointing.
posted by anniecat at 4:02 PM on December 21, 2011 [1 favorite]

That poor dog needs waterrrrrrr
posted by nathancaswell at 6:43 PM on December 21, 2011

and hating on 'bimbos' is still hating on women, so I'm not down.

So saying anything bad about any woman is sexist if it is done by a man.
posted by hellslinger at 11:53 AM on December 22, 2011

So saying anything bad about any woman is sexist if it is done by a man.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or something? Or does someone need to hold your hand and explain it to you?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:18 PM on December 22, 2011 [2 favorites]

On a somewhat less contentious note (please, I hope), The Life of a Modern Woman.
posted by psoas at 1:21 PM on December 22, 2011

Bimbo is a sexist stereotype and slur, you know this. It's not "anything bad about any woman", it's using sexist stereotypes to put down women. And sometimes the strategy some women use is to distance themselves from those "other girls" the stupid ones, the airheads, the bimbos. But of course in the end, all women are stereotyped as not as smart, not as capable as men.
posted by Danila at 6:26 PM on December 22, 2011

Shit Southern Gay Guys Say.
posted by ericb at 11:41 AM on December 23, 2011

Or does someone need to hold your hand and explain it to you?

If I were to post something half as condescending and direct as this, my comments would be deleted.
posted by hellslinger at 10:07 PM on December 23, 2011 [1 favorite]

If I were to post something half as condescending and direct as this, my comments would be deleted.

When you make the sort of snide, dismissive, completely-off-the-mark comments that you do, where a lot of people are taking your remarks to be deliberate point-missing or pot-stirring, I'm including the option that you genuinely don't get it. If that's the case, despite everyone's best efforts to explain where they're coming from, then yeah, maybe it needs to be spelled out.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:15 PM on December 23, 2011

I'm including the option that you genuinely don't get it.

With all due respect, no you're not.
posted by nathancaswell at 9:57 AM on December 24, 2011

"Does someone need to hold your hand and explain it to you" is including the option that he genuinely doesn't get it. If my tone was curt there it might be because of the shitty misreadings he's been dropping in this thread.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:08 AM on December 24, 2011

Marisa, I'm going to say this as it might come in useful to growing out of solipsism:

Just because someone does not agree does not mean that he doesn't get it.
posted by hellslinger at 1:07 PM on December 30, 2011 [2 favorites]

Just because someone does not agree does not mean that he doesn't get it.

Let's recap: your response to someone having a problem with "bimbo" is your asking if "saying anything bad about any woman is sexist if it is done by a man". This is either a deliberate misreading for the purpose of scoring Edgy Points, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with "bimbo", which I find really difficult to believe.

This isn't you "disagreeing" with anything; it's you either being an ass, or not understanding the problem. If you're coming back six days later to suggest I need to outgrow something, I'm inclined to go with the former.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:12 PM on December 30, 2011

Obviously. It was en exaggeration in order to point out the extent at which your logic may fail according to us. It was sarcastic, and I'm a little surprised you didn't notice.

The point which we are not agreeing is thinking that using the word 'bimbo' is sexist against all women. Sure, it certainly has sexist overtones against whomever that word is being applied, because it has connotations that are attributions of feminine qualities in a less than flattering way.

But, maybe it is a GOOD thing that everyone 'hate on' being a 'bimbo' because it is not a good thing for anyone to be. I would even go further to say that 'bimbos' embarrass and diminish the image of women in general. So, maybe hating on 'bimbos' is a good thing and being a 'bimbo' is a bad thing.

I'm not sure what kind of reality distortion field you live in, but 'bimbos' exist. They are the Sarah Palins of the world who use feminism as a convenience and get a pass because some men find them attractive.

If one to were to refer to women as 'hoes' or 'bimbos' casually and when not meaning it, then it may be 'hating on bimbos' in a universally sexist way.

I'm compelled point out the hypocrisy of using my reply being six days late to imply I lack the ability to grasp concepts by the existence of your reply to it.
posted by hellslinger at 8:34 AM on December 31, 2011

Happy New Year!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:50 PM on December 31, 2011 [1 favorite]