Manningface

February 9, 2012 9:07 PM

Peyton Manning is known as one of the best NFL quarterbacks of all time. He holds many NFL all time records and led his team to victory in Super Bowl XLI. Manning has lost significant playing time due to a serious neck injury and it is not clear if he will return to the Colts next season, or to football at all. If he does decide to return to the gridiron to try and win another championship (to catch up with his little brother on that score) there is no clear consensus on what team he could possibly end up joining. With that speculation in the mind of every NFL fan this offseason, artist David Rappoccio has begun to visualize what it might look like if Peyton joined your local team.
posted by furiousxgeorge (128 comments total)

These are cute (and the Giants one is particularly clever) but from what I've been hearing the smart money has him going to Miami. (I don't know terribly much about football, though. Could be way off there.)
posted by Navelgazer at 9:12 PM on February 9

He's definitely going to the redskins, which means the injury is much worse than we'd been lead to believe.

sigh.
posted by slapshot57 at 9:13 PM on February 9 [8 favorites]

God, the Redskins are a weird team.

I've lived in DC for the past four and a half years, and I know that apparently they sell out every game and all, and yet I've never met a single person here who gives one iota of a shit about them. I know Nats fans. I know a LOT of Caps fans. I know, well, okay I don't know any Wizards fans, but I even know rabid United fans. Never met a Redskins fan, here or elsewhere.

And they just seem to be in such a weird pattern of picking up another mid-career bust of a QB every year hoping that will save things for them while not fixing their other positions. Also, Snyder is an asshole.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:23 PM on February 9 [1 favorite]

He will re-work his contract with the Colts.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:25 PM on February 9

If that injury is even half as bad as the story indicates he'd be a fool to continue. He'll go straight into the unwatchable pile with Vick.
posted by unixrat at 9:25 PM on February 9

I don't think I could bear to see a diminished Peyton Manning on the playing field (or on the sideline as a back-up), and I'm not even a Colts fan. There was no question that he was one of the all-time great QB's even before he got hurt, but it really sunk in this season as the Colts went from being a perennial play-off team that was almost always a heavily favored candidate for the Superbowl with Peyton Manning to The Worst Team In The NFL without him. He's the only athlete that should get the MVP award for not being able to play, he's that good.

I hope that he is healed up well enough to play at the same level he's accustomed to, and if he isn't, I hope he's wise enough to recognize that and not try something he's no longer physically capable of. That said . . .

MANNINGFACE!
posted by KingEdRa at 10:22 PM on February 9

peyton doesn't go to the redskins - that's the same division as eli. i'd imagine it's going to be tough to find another spot for him because the colts won't want him in the AFC and the mannings won't want him in the NFC. i find it difficult to believe that he'll play for any other team besides the colts at this point. of course, he might want to just prove that he can still do it and will go to another team out of spite. i hope he doesn't leave the league like brett favre.
posted by nadawi at 10:25 PM on February 9

If I bet on injuries (I don't) I would actually pick Peyton to become quarterbacks coach for the Colts. I'm still suspecting that he never plays again. It would be sad if he can't play because he really was one of the best at his position. But if you are a Colts fan who else would you want to see teaching Andrew Luck?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 10:52 PM on February 9 [1 favorite]

Solid chance he doesn't play again next year. Slight chance he can play in 2 years. I don't ever want to see the Raiders logo defaced like that again, though.
posted by Chuffy at 11:29 PM on February 9 [1 favorite]

Don't the Vikings take the old, broken players?
posted by rough ashlar at 11:34 PM on February 9 [5 favorites]

Navelgaver, you're just not looking hard enough. I moved to DC nearly 20 years ago from Illinois (Go Bears!), and Redskins fans are everywhere. (Pro tip: If you ever need to go to Home Depot, go during a Redskins game. It's like a ghost town.)

Football season in DC is intolerable. If the team starts 2-0, all you hear is Super Bowl. (The actual term is "Bandwagon," a term Tony Kornheiser dreamed up and made popular during the "Hogs" era.) If they lose some game 45-17, the Post's write-up inevitably whines about a possible blown call late in the 2d quarter that surely turned the tide of the game. And once the wheels fall off the cart mid-season, they rend their garments, gnash their teeth and cover themselves with ashes.

And when it comes to owners, Snyder is truly first among equals in loathesomeness. The only solace is that he has signle-handledly taken the team he loved more than anything as a child and driven it straight through the ground and out the other side.
posted by hawkeye at 11:43 PM on February 9 [7 favorites]

And once the wheels fall off the cart mid-season, they rend their garments, gnash their teeth and cover themselves with ashes.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 11:59 PM on February 9 [1 favorite]

I love all things Manning, ever since Peyton showed up in Knoxville as a doofy-looking freshman QB at Tennessee, and he's pretty much the only reason I watch NFL football. I'm more of an NCAA person, but like lots of people from my part of the country, I've also been a happy Colts fan since 1998. I also live in Northern Virginia, so one would think I'd be ecstatic with the possibility of my favorite player being so close at hand.

However, I will cry if he ends up with the Redskins, and I don't exaggerate. The Redskins organization is a titanic clusterfuck, and it seems to be where careers go to die (these days, anyway). I've lived here for ten years, practically a lifetime by DC standards, and I still hate the Redskins. If he's not going to stay in Indy or at least play for a legitimate, non Snyder-owned team, I'd rather he retire - I feel like his football personality is such a triple Type A insane control freak (said in the most loving way possible, of course) that he wouldn't play if he weren't 100%.

He's the only athlete that should get the MVP award for not being able to play, he's that good.

This bears repeating. Boy, this last season was a bitch to watch.
posted by timetoevolve at 12:16 AM on February 10 [2 favorites]

The Ravens ones look fierce. Peyton to the Ravens, I say :)

Seriously, though, neck & nerve injuries are nothing to be sneezed at. I love watching Peyton play but I also want to see him grow into a badass coach, where he is clearly destined to go post-playing career. Too many bridges burnt with Irsay for him to do that with the Colts though - plus I don't think he could stand to see Andrew Luck, a close family friend, replace him right away.
posted by SakuraK at 12:42 AM on February 10

...the Colts went from being a perennial play-off team that was almost always a heavily favored candidate for the Superbowl with Peyton Manning to The Worst Team In The NFL without him...

That stinks on ice. Something really fishy is going on there, and the league needs to take a real close look at Caldwell and his staff, or even Chris Polian. I think it's more than possible they were throwing games to move up in the draft, hoping for a "Peyton II" in Andrew Luck. That's the only reason I can think of why a Superbowl-winning coach and GM was fired after the very first season they didn't make the playoffs... one of them made the mistake of bragging about it to Irsay.
posted by Slap*Happy at 2:42 AM on February 10

Dude, the Colts god old. No conspiracy beyond that. And without Peyton, well, there you go.

Dan Snyder is going to offer Peyton the moon, btw. And it would be an utter disaster with a team with as many holes as the Redskins.
posted by bardic at 2:50 AM on February 10

Going to the Redskins is an injury in and of itself.
posted by delfin at 4:36 AM on February 10 [2 favorites]

(fwiw, I am a Redskins fan. And I blame this singular fact on my many deficiencies as a human being.)
posted by bardic at 4:50 AM on February 10

I think if he went to another team, it would have to be one in a position similar to the Vikings when Favre went there- ie. a quarterback away from being a Super Bowl contender.
posted by drezdn at 4:53 AM on February 10

I can tell you where he won't be going - the Patriots :)
posted by quodlibet at 5:17 AM on February 10

If Dan Snyder loves the Redskins so much, he probably should have bought the Cowboys instead.
posted by Toubab at 5:20 AM on February 10 [4 favorites]

"If Dan Snyder loves the Redskins so much, he probably should have bought the Cowboys instead."

He's such a shit owner, it's like he used to run AOL or something.
posted by bardic at 5:28 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

I've lived in DC for the past four and a half years, and I know that apparently they sell out every game and all, and yet I've never met a single person here who gives one iota of a shit about them. I know Nats fans. I know a LOT of Caps fans. I know, well, okay I don't know any Wizards fans, but I even know rabid United fans. Never met a Redskins fan, here or elsewhere.

Where do you do your grocery shopping? If it's not the organic market or the Whole Foods, try talking to the next male cashier you have about football. He will be a Redskins fan. If it is Sunday he will try to get someone who knows to tell him the score of the game. Despite the fact that your cashier will always be a Redskins fan, the cashier in the next line will always be a Cowboys fan. It's weird, but true.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:28 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Scuttlebutt has it that the Texans may get him
posted by Renoroc at 5:36 AM on February 10

Reports so-far are that Manning flat-out can't throw a ball anymore. In his private practices, it's been said he's, at best, good for only 20 yards, if that. And there's not a lot of force behind the throw.

My long-shot prediction...Manning stays with the Colts, but in a quarterback-coaching function to help re-build the team.

That, or, he leaves the team and provides the same function for a team closer to home. It all depends on whether Irsay wants to make a clean break with the past.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:45 AM on February 10

That's the only reason I can think of why a Superbowl-winning coach

Dungee won the SB, not Caldwell. And Polian, the brilliant GM, assembled a roster that could barely win a game after the loss of a single player. A lot of that has to do with the uniqueness of the Colts offensive system but still. I understand why they cleaned house and want to start over. Personally I think Manning is getting cut. I don't see him restructuring his contract. Everyone he would have allegiance too is gone and Isray seems like a piece of shit.
posted by nathancaswell at 5:47 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

I've lived in DC for the past four and a half years, and I know that apparently they sell out every game and all, and yet I've never met a single person here who gives one iota of a shit about them.

Take a ride out to the suburbs (not Takoma Park, the real suburbs, like Sterling or Herndon or Manassas). You'll find them.
posted by downing street memo at 6:06 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Scuttlebutt has it that the Texans may get him

How many QBs do they need?
posted by Navelgazer at 6:15 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

At the end of the season I was expecting Peyton to stick around the Colts as QB coach or (long shot) head coach. After Caldwell and the rest got purged, I expect his days in Indy are over. Everyone in my office (in southern CT) thinks/hopes he's going to the Jets.

However, his legacy and affect on the Colts as an Indianapolis team simply cannot be overstated. I was an elementary school student in Indy when the Colts arrived and was always ambivalent about the crappy team. However, my nieces and nephews who grew up in the Peyton Era are die-hard fans in a way that you don't often see in Indianapolis (Pacers being the only other pro team).

I refused to root for them when Dungy was there, because he's an outspoken homophobic bigot in a town where gay kids must already feel a ton of repression. Now, though, I've softened. I hope Peyton can stick around.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 6:16 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Here are the facts on Manning as I see them:

1. He is 35 years old with no major injuries before this season

2. He is going to be unemployed more because of coincidental facts that have nothing to do with his prospects or performance

A. He is due a 28 million dollar bonus payment on his contract

B. The Colts have the first pick in the draft and Luck is the top quarterback prospect in several years

After that we have guesses--retirement, Redskins, Dolphins--and that is it.

My guess is Manning will play next year, play well, make a lot of dough (although not 28 million), and the team that gets him will be significantly better for it. If I were a Redskins fan I would be all for it. If I were a Dolphins fan I would be all for it. I am a Raiders fan and I would far rather have Manning than Carson Palmer next year.
posted by bukvich at 6:21 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

his legacy and affect on the Colts as an Indianapolis team simply cannot be overstated

Seconding this. They said it during the superbowl, Indy never would've gotten that fancy new stadium if not for Manning.
posted by inigo2 at 6:32 AM on February 10 [2 favorites]

Peyton Manning is like a god here in Indy. If you see someone wearing a Colts jersey, there's an 80% chance that it has the number 18 on it. We have two children's hospitals, one of which is named after him. Colts fans here are rabid in the same way Bears fans were when I was a kid in Chicago in 1985. But they are not so much Colts fans as they are Manning fans. As we've all seen, the Colts suck without him.

We're all pretty sure that he's gone. Irsay* is going to dump him like yesterday's trash. I think the Colts are going to have a hard time holding things together without him.

* - I'm still pissed at him because I have to pay him extra taxes because he threw a temper tantrum to get Lucas Oil Stadium
posted by double block and bleed at 6:43 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Luck is the top quarterback prospect in several years

If he throws for 5,000 yards in his first full season, then I'll buy this claim.



Yeah, I'm a Lions fan. What of it?
posted by Edison Carter at 6:44 AM on February 10

Payton Manning is not one of the all time greats. He has one Superbowl ring and a nice personality. Yes he had some good numbers. Great Quartebacks like his brother Eli find ways to win this tough games.
posted by humanfont at 6:52 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

How many QBs do they need?

If last year is any indication, four.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:52 AM on February 10 [3 favorites]

Payton Manning is not one of the all time greats. He has one Superbowl ring and a nice personality. Yes he had some good numbers.

Nice numbers? You mean:

Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards
Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards
One of only seven QBs with at least 6 touchdown passes in two games
Most regular games with at least 300 passing yards
Most regular and postseason games with at least 300 passing yards
Most games with at least 400 yards passing and no interceptions
Largest career TD-INT differential
Highest career passing TDs/game average (min. 150 TD passes)
Highest career passing yards/game average
Second-Highest career completions/game average (min. 100 games played)
Highest completion percentage by a QB in one month in NFL history (min. 75 attempts)
Most career games with a completion percentage of 70% or higher (min. 10 attempts)
Most consecutive regular season wins as a starter
Most seasons with 12+ wins as a starter (regular season only)
Only QB with at least 12 wins as a starter in 7 consecutive seasons
Only QB with nine straight seasons of 10+ wins as a starter
Only QB to lead five consecutive 4th quarter comeback wins
Most fourth quarter comeback wins in one season
First QB to defeat the other 31 teams in the regular season
Most wins as a starting QB in a decade, regular season only
Most wins as a starting QB in a decade, regular & postseason

Yeah: good numbers.

Also, here's a number nobody can match: four NFL MVPs. That's how many Peyton Manning has won.

He's first-ballot HOF. Let's not understate his accomplishments.
posted by Edison Carter at 6:59 AM on February 10 [11 favorites]

Payton Manning is not one of the all time greats.

I can picture this as an example under the dictionary entry for "trolling".
posted by 3FLryan at 7:11 AM on February 10 [3 favorites]

Nah, just a Giants fan in his post orgasmic refractory period. He probably wanted to run Eli and Coughlin out of town in week eight.
posted by Trochanter at 7:16 AM on February 10 [4 favorites]

Great Quartebacks like his brother Eli find ways to win this tough games.

Like Vince Young and Tebow before him, Eli Manning just wins™. He found a way to will David Tyree and Mario Manningham to phenomenal catches and we should all applaud his gritty grit spirit winnerness. He willed those 3 fumble recoveries with his winner will grit-spirit, and willed the Patriots 12 man on the field penalty on the other one. He winnered his way to Wes Welker dropping that pass. If only Peyton Manning had this mystical winner power to will 21 other men (plus special teams) to perform their duties and avoid turnovers and bad bounces he would have more SB rings. And don't even get me started on Dan Marino, that guy was the least-willingist will-wimp who ever loser wimped away the big game.

In conclusion, Bradshaw winner Bart Star Tebow winning gritty winner.
posted by nathancaswell at 7:40 AM on February 10 [9 favorites]

rr
posted by nathancaswell at 7:41 AM on February 10

I love how that linked article tries to grasp for every stat it can find to try and come up with some shred of evidence that Peyton Manning is the greatest quarterback in the history of western civilization. Nobody cares how many yards he threw in 2004, his career QB rating, or shit like that.

Here and here are the numbers that matter. Those are links to the NFL quarterback playoff and superbowl records. The default sorting for playoffs is by number of wins. By that measure he ranks with Kurt Warner, Jim Kelly, and Donovan McNabb with 9 wins. That's pretty good but there are 8 QBs with more wins. But then you look over at his winning fraction which is a terrible 0.474.

He's lost more playoff games then he's won! The only other playoff QBs with losing records in the top 60(!) are Dan Marino, Matt Hasselbeck and Daryle Lamonica.

So ya, he's one of the top 20 QBs of all time. But don't even try to compare him to someone like Brady, Aikman, Roethlisberger, or Montana because that won't fly. He's a Marino with a Superbowl win.
posted by euphorb at 7:43 AM on February 10

Manning Face is a bit of trolling as well.
posted by teekat at 7:43 AM on February 10

don't even try to compare him to someone like Brady

Did you miss the memo? Brady is a shitty choker now who can't handle the pressure of the big game, unlike 2001-2004 when he Just Won™.

Guys, football is the ultimate team game. Wins and losses are the combined result of the actions of 106 men, countless coaches and playcalls and an oblong ball that bounces funny. Sometimes you come up an inch short. Judging a single player's greatness solely by his team's playoff wins and losses is as dumb as judging it just from stats.

Anyone know what Sonny Jurgensen's career win/loss record was? How many playoff games he won? I guess he must be one of the worst QBs of all time.
posted by nathancaswell at 7:50 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Here and here are the numbers that matter. Those are links to the NFL quarterback playoff and superbowl records.

Really? So football is a game played by 1 guy?

don't even try to compare him to someone like Brady, Aikman, Roethlisberger, or Montana

He's better than Roethlisberger.

He's a Marino with a Superbowl win.

Are you trying to say that's a *bad* thing?

You also overlook the FOUR MVPs. Four. Not three, not two. Four. How does that make him "not so good"?
posted by Edison Carter at 7:50 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

He's a Marino with a Superbowl win.

Yes, he's exactly Marino with a Superbowl win. I'm just not quite sure you understand what the means in the "best of all time" debate.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:57 AM on February 10 [6 favorites]

He's a Marino with a Superbowl win.

Marino is defined by not having a Super Bowl win. You basically just said "he's Marino except with the thing that everyone agrees hold him back from being an all-time great".
posted by 3FLryan at 8:16 AM on February 10

Did you miss the memo? Brady is a shitty choker now who can't handle the pressure of the big game, unlike 2001-2004 when he Just Won™.

Brady with Bridget Moynahan: Three SB appearances, three rings.

Brady after Bridget Moynahan: Two SB appearance, zero rings.

Coincidence or conspiracy? If I was Gisele Bündchen, I'd have someone start my car for me for a while.
posted by delfin at 8:16 AM on February 10

(or what Bulgaroktonos said)
posted by 3FLryan at 8:17 AM on February 10

Actually, I take that back -- at least two of those rings were in the pre-Moynahan era. Perhaps Tom Brady should just avoid models and actresses altogether.
posted by delfin at 8:18 AM on February 10

People don't consider Dan Marino an all-time great?
posted by Hoopo at 8:18 AM on February 10 [3 favorites]

Let's not forget that he allegedly sexually assaulted his team's trainer in college.
posted by Mick at 8:19 AM on February 10

Let's not forget that he allegedly sexually assaulted his team's trainer in college.
posted by Mick

Yeah, honestly, that incident pretty much precludes me from ever even resting a toe on the P. Manning bandwagon, even though I recognize he's a great quarterback.
posted by COBRA! at 8:27 AM on February 10

People don't consider Dan Marino an all-time great?

I do, but I was being charitable in my characterization.
posted by 3FLryan at 8:28 AM on February 10

Two of the linked articles in the post proclaim Manning as the greatest QB of all time. One said "Peyton Manning is the greatest quarterback in NFL history". That's a pretty inflammatory statement written by someone that is either hopelessly biased or didn't put enough thought into it.

I disagreed with that statement and I gave evidence which you are free to agree or disagree with. At no time did I say that Manning was "not so good". And it looks really awkward to quote somebody when everyone can scroll up 3 comments and see that I didn't write that.

What I said was that Manning is in the top 20 of all time. If you don't like that then fine.

Wins and losses are the combined result of the actions of 106 men, countless coaches and playcalls and an oblong ball that bounces funny.

Yes, of course. Manning's great stats are entirely due to his play and his poor playoff record is due to the actions of his entire team.

You also overlook the FOUR MVPs. Four. Not three, not two. Four.

According to this link he has 3, but either way an MVP award reflects success in the regular season. If you think that regular season performance is more important than success in the post season then by that standard Manning is probably in the top 5.

Yes, he's exactly Marino with a Superbowl win. I'm just not quite sure you understand what the means in the "best of ll time" debate.

You basically just said "he's Marino except with the thing that everyone agrees hold him back from being an all-time great".

I guess it depends where you draw the line to separate the pantheon of greats from the merely good QBs. There can only be one best QB of all time. How many "all time greats" are there? What does that mean? Even if Dan Marino had won a Superbowl, there would still be 11 QBs that have won multiple Superbowls and all of them had better post season records so there are at least 11 QBs that have a claim to be better than him.


Brady is a shitty choker now who can't handle the pressure of the big game, unlike 2001-2004 when he Just Won™.

You can't cherry pick a few seasons and then say he's a bad quarterback. Obviously you need to evaluate their entire career.

But through all that I still didn't see anyone willing to back the claim that Manning is the GOAT.
posted by euphorb at 8:53 AM on February 10

Peyton Manning Congratulates Brother Eli: 'This Has Been The Worst Year Of My Life'
posted by exogenous at 8:53 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Yes, of course. Manning's great stats are entirely due to his play and his poor playoff record is due to the actions of his entire team.

Did you see the part where I said "Judging a single player's greatness solely by his team's playoff wins and losses is as dumb as judging it just from stats."

You can't cherry pick a few seasons and then say he's a bad quarterback.

Me calling Brady a choker was sarcasm (I'm actually a Pats fan). I was trying to point out that he's the same guy he's always been despite the fact that he's lost some high profile playoff games lately.

You talk about cherry picking but you're the one who wants to judge a guy's entire career based on the outcome of 5-10 games (playoff games and Super Bowls). That's crazy.
posted by nathancaswell at 9:00 AM on February 10

He's a Marino with a Superbowl win.

I'm just going to drop in here to say, I've been having a really wretched morning, but seeing someone use "Marino with a Superbowl win" as a pejorative has completely turned it around.

As you were.
posted by Mayor West at 9:01 AM on February 10 [2 favorites]

In short, sports fans are kinda stupid sometimes. Anyways, I thought the logos were pretty funny on account of Peyton Manning's face being pretty funny.
posted by Hoopo at 9:03 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

How many "all time greats" are there? What does that mean?

A first shot a definition might be:

"All-time great": A player that 1) is respected for his or her supreme talent by fans, teammates, opposing players and opposing fans, 2) is at or near the top of a considerable number of statistical categories pertinent to his or her position, 3) has won, both individually and as part of a team, the highest honors of the league he or she plays in (e.g. MVP or league championship) and 4) passes a subjective test of interest/excitement/aura (e.g. "Is the importance of / interest generated by a game significantly impacted by his or her participation in the game?).

I think any reasonable definition of "all-time great" would have to include Peyton Manning, don't you think?
posted by 3FLryan at 9:30 AM on February 10

and we should probably add in a 5) clause that stipulates their career must have some longevity to it
posted by 3FLryan at 9:33 AM on February 10

According to this link he has 3

No, according to that link, he has four (2003, 2004, 2008, and 2009). Click it and see for yourself.
posted by Edison Carter at 10:45 AM on February 10

Coincidence or conspiracy?

Rings before being caught cheating: 3

Rings after being caught cheating: 0

Coincidence or conspiracy?
posted by banshee at 10:47 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

"All-time great": A player that 1) is respected for his or her supreme talent by fans, teammates, opposing players and opposing fans,

I'd say consistent voting into the Pro Bowl is a sign of this. Check.

2) is at or near the top of a considerable number of statistical categories pertinent to his or her position

Ranks among the best statistically. Check.

3) has won, both individually and as part of a team, the highest honors of the league he or she plays in (e.g. MVP or league championship)

Four MVPs, two Super Bowl appearances, and a Super Bowl win. Check.

4) passes a subjective test of interest/excitement/aura (e.g. "Is the importance of / interest generated by a game significantly impacted by his or her participation in the game?).

Given how often people go to Colts games to see him rather than Jeff Saturday... yeah. Check,

5) clause that stipulates their career must have some longevity to it

He's played thirteen seasons, so yep. Check.

I think any reasonable definition of "all-time great" would have to include Peyton Manning, don't you think?

I agree.
posted by Edison Carter at 10:49 AM on February 10

Rings after being caught cheating: 0

ok that's it I'm going back to Football Outsiders
posted by nathancaswell at 10:54 AM on February 10

I guess it depends where you draw the line to separate the pantheon of greats from the merely good QBs. There can only be one best QB of all time. How many "all time greats" are there?

Lots. There can be lots more. There's no limit. In this case, Peyton Manning is one of them.

What does that mean? Even if Dan Marino had won a Superbowl, there would still be 11 QBs that have won multiple Superbowls and all of them had better post season records so there are at least 11 QBs that have a claim to be better than him.

Why devalue the regular season? Why overvalue the postseason? A player's post-season performance, especially when it runs counter to their regular season performance, is a poor sample of their ability.

By your logic, Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are better quarterbacks than Peyton Manning because they're undefeated in the Super Bowl. Which is absurd.
posted by Edison Carter at 10:55 AM on February 10

Why devalue the regular season?

Seriously! It's a pet peeve of mine. Sports are largely, if not entirely, about entertainment. Some of us can afford to actually go to a regular season game or 2 some years. Teams need to play well in the regular season, they need to have players that play well and provide fans with something to get excited about in the regular season. In the NFL, there's what, 12 teams that make the playoffs? Out of 32? those 16 weeks for the remaining 20 teams meant nothing somehow? I doubt that's true for the fans that watched and paid money to attend.
posted by Hoopo at 11:06 AM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Like Vince Young and Tebow before him, Eli Manning just wins

Neither Young nor Tebow have won a Super Bowl. Peyton has been a fine quarterback but to make all time great list you have to win multiple Super Bowls.
posted by humanfont at 11:11 AM on February 10

to make all time great list you have to win multiple Super Bowls.

So Ladies and Gentleman, your list of all time greats is: Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, John Elway, Ben Roethlisberger, Bob Griese, Jim Plunkett, Roger Staubach, Bart Starr, Eli Manning.

That is a crappy list.
posted by nathancaswell at 11:39 AM on February 10 [3 favorites]

Somehow Bob Griese and Jim Plunkett are "greater" than Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, or Brett Favre?

Um. No.
posted by Edison Carter at 11:52 AM on February 10

Not to mention Steve Young, Fran Tarkenton, Sonny Jurgensen, Dan Fouts, Sid Luckman, Johnny Unitas, Otto Graham, YA Tittle (although I'll give a pass on that with the narrow definition of "win Multiple Super Bowls" since they didn't really play in the SB era)... even a guy like Kurt Warner (who vastly outperformed virtually every QB in history in actual playoff games... only it was in losing efforts which don't count because the LOSING LOSER LOST)
posted by nathancaswell at 12:00 PM on February 10

To clarify what I mean about Warner (since I really don't consider him an all-time great, although he is on the doorstep)... in 2010 Kurt Warner (age 38), in a playoff game vs the Packers, threw for 397 yards and more TDs (5) than incompletions (4). But he lost. So I guess he sucks.
posted by nathancaswell at 12:04 PM on February 10

Anybody who says that the number of championships won by a player as a member of a team in any sport is the single most important metric in defining that player's greatness obviously is not a fan of the sport in question, and is merely a fan of that player or the team(s) they played on. Championships are won by TEAMS, not by individuals.

An individual athlete's greatness in team sports can only to be judged in comparison with other players who played the same position, both contemporaneously and in the past.
posted by KingEdRa at 12:10 PM on February 10

Perhaps if this was a list of great running backs, or wide receivers the individual stats would be enough, but a key element of playing quarterback is leading the team to championships.
posted by humanfont at 12:20 PM on February 10

Hell, even if the metric is changed to "NFL Titles", then that would make Tom Moore on the 60s Packers teams better than Dan Marino because "he won more".

Which is dumb.
posted by Edison Carter at 12:23 PM on February 10 [1 favorite]

a key element of playing quarterback is leading the team to championships.

No, a key element of playing quarterback is throwing the ball. You're being absurd.
posted by Edison Carter at 12:24 PM on February 10 [1 favorite]

On preview, (and in a much nicer way than I was about to), what Edison Carter just said.
posted by KingEdRa at 12:26 PM on February 10

Rings before being caught cheating: 3

Rings after being caught cheating: 0

Coincidence or conspiracy?

Considering the reason that second number isn't "2" is 2 miracle catches, I'm going with coincidence.
posted by 3FLryan at 12:56 PM on February 10

bardic: "Dude, the Colts god old."

He may be old, but if he heals I'm sure he's good for another 2 or 3 seasons.
posted by Bonzai at 12:57 PM on February 10 [1 favorite]

I think Manning will play for the Jets, he will be playing for sure though somewhere. He plays better at 80% than most of the other starting QBs at 100%.
posted by richardclemons at 1:21 PM on February 10

He plays better at 80% than most of the other starting QBs at 100%.

Manning will always have a great football mind, but if he doesn't have the velocity on his throws to complete the entire route tree (as some people are reporting) I think his ceiling becomes Chad Pennington.
posted by nathancaswell at 1:29 PM on February 10

Who really *really* needs a QB right now? Washington, Arizona, Seattle, Cleveland, Oakland, Kansas City, and Indianapolis.

There's who really needs Peyton.
posted by Edison Carter at 1:31 PM on February 10

Washington, Arizona, Seattle, Cleveland, Oakland, Kansas City, and Indianapolis.

KC is in decent shape now that Orton is around to push Cassel. Oakland has hitched their cart to Carson Palmer (speaking of QBs who lost some heat on their fastballs and suddenly became different players) cause of the draft picks they gave up to acquire him. I think if you're Arizone you have to assume the verdict is still out on Kolb, though personally I think they got fleeced. It wouldn't totally shock me to see Manning end up in Az though. KC and Oakland would shock me.
posted by nathancaswell at 1:35 PM on February 10

Wherever he ends up, he will likely be the "for-the-time-being" mentor to whomever they draft this year, then he will make his way to coaching.
posted by Edison Carter at 1:51 PM on February 10

I'm rather surprised that some here don't think Peyton Manning is not one of the great QB's to play the game. Outside of Tom Brady there has not been a more dominant QB in the league for the same span of time. When he was playing he controlled the game in ways that were incredibly impressive. I've been watching football since the days of Staubach and Bradshaw and I can tell you he is one of the best.

If I owned a team I would take the Peyton that played from 2000 - 2010 over any other active QB. This is a guy who controlled the entire offense. He didn't just fill a spot; it was as though he was both player and coach.

Sure, he only won one Super Bowl but only one team can win a year - and note it is a team that has to get there and win. One QB cannot win it all alone. Montana and Brady were on better balanced teams than the Colts ever had.

Who knows if going forward he will be as good. If he goes to a new team there will be an adjustment period.
posted by Rashomon at 2:08 PM on February 10

This is a guy who controlled the entire offense. He didn't just fill a spot; it was as though he was both player and coach.

This is why I don't think he will be nearly as effective on whatever new team he lands, even if his arm strength returns. For years he was the de-facto offensive coordinator in an offense built around him. We've seen what happens when good QBs leave the offensive system they've played the majority of their careers in... Favre went from the WCO in GB to a different system with the Jets and struggled, then back to the WCO with the Vikings and flourished. McNabb looked like a completely different player outside of Philly. There's not really another system in the league like the one Manning ran in Indy (I know Atlanta runs a lot of no-huddle, but I think conceptually the offenses are quite different). Maybe he'll find a coach willing to install a totally different offense for him but that will take a while to do, time that Manning, quite frankly, doesn't have.
posted by nathancaswell at 2:32 PM on February 10

Luck is the top quarterback prospect in several years

If he throws for 5,000 yards in his first full season, then I'll buy this claim.

How about if he throws for 4,000 yards in his first season (most ever for a rookie), throws for 21 TD passes, breaks the NFL record for rushing TDs by a QB with 14 and wins Offensive Rookie of the Year all on a team whose offense was MISERABLE the previous year?

Gentlemen, I have seen the future, and his name is Cam Newton.
posted by nathancaswell at 2:55 PM on February 10 [2 favorites]

(or: the Superman exists and he's a Carolinian)
posted by nathancaswell at 2:58 PM on February 10

here's not really another system in the league like the one Manning ran in Indy (I know Atlanta runs a lot of no-huddle, but I think conceptually the offenses are quite different).

The Eagles took Howard Mudd, long time offensive line coach in Indianapolis so my secret dream theory is that behind the scenes they have been setting up to be ready to switch schemes. It would be more likely next year when the Eagles woukd have an easier time dumping Vick.

I don't seriously believe this is likely this year, but if Manning skips another year it could happen. This is all of course if the Eagles don't win the Super Bowl with Vick this year, which of course is the most likely outcome here.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 3:01 PM on February 10

I sincerely doubt he stays in Indianapolis. The bad blood has been growing in the front office over the past couple of weeks, he's got a massive bonus that needs to be paid, and the the Colts almost certainly taking Luck that doesn't leave a lot of money to strengthen up the rest of the team. I picture him going to a team with a fairly young offense which will be willing and able to mold to his style, with that team gambling on finding a QB nearly as good in the next few years to take over from there in a similar manner. In other words, not the Redskins.

Rings are, of course, important but overvalued. In our visions of the All Time Greats, we want the victories in our highlight reels. We want the proof that they were so above and beyond their contemporaries that no one could stop them. But these are still team sports, even for obvious leadership positions like QB. But if you were making an All Time Greats list for, say, Baseball, would you leave off Carl Yastrzemski?

Or for Basketball. I don't like LeBron James more than anybody else, but his place on the list is pretty damn well secured by now. And it is very likely that he will retire with no rings, with the current ascendance of the Bulls, Thunder and (because we suddenly live in Bizarro-World) the Clippers. Would we deny him that place because he spent his best years in Cleveland with no real support, and simply almost won it?

And how many rings make the player? It's undoubtable that Magic and Bird were some of the best players ever, but had they been playing in different eras, how many more titles would each have them have racked up? I would happily claim Hakeem Olajuwon as the greatest Center of All Time, but Shaq has more titles, more MVPs. But Olajuwon spent his entire time (more or less) playing in a league with Michael Jordan and the Bulls, while Shaq had a much more open field. (The tragedy of that era for me is that we never saw Olajuwan's Rockets and Jordan's Bulls match up in the finals, but whatever.)

I don't really care about Peyton Manning, but it's silly to me not to see him as one of the Greats. Luck plays a big role in these matters. Luck will, by name and flesh, play a big role in Manning's fate and the fate of the Colts moving forward. It just happens, but it shouldn't diminish his ability.

(Now, for QBs like Roethlisberger and Vick, I'm very willing to let other factors diminish their abilities and accomplishments, but that's another discussion.)
posted by Navelgazer at 3:02 PM on February 10

2002 playoffs Peyton is held to 137 yards
2003 AFC Championship Peyton gives up 4 interceptions and has a 35.5 passer rating
2004 2nd round of the playoffs vs Patriots, Peyton and the Colts get 3 points from their kicker in another blowout.
2005 vs the Steelers in the playoffs. The refs take pity on Peyton and incorrectly overturn what should have been the game ending interception. Colts still lose. Oh an Big Ben saves his team from defeat by making an epic tackle.
2006 Finally Super Bowl
2007 epic 6 interception meltdown after starting the season 7-1. In the playoffs end against the Chargers he has the opportunity to lead the winning drive, he chokes.
2008 Coin flip results in an OT loss to the Chargers. Can't blame him for that one.
2009 back to the Super Bowl, loses the game with a 4th quarter interception.
2010 playoffs leads the go ahead drive against the Jets but his defense can't hold
2011 After signing the largest contract in NFL history does not play a single snap

He's a good player, but he lacks consistent clutch play in the big games. In most of those games his performance was a major factor in defeat.
posted by humanfont at 3:19 PM on February 10

for everyone saying redskins - do you honestly think he'd accept a trade that put him in the same division as eli?
posted by nadawi at 3:22 PM on February 10

He's a good player, but he lacks consistent clutch play in the big games.

I have a feeling this is going to fall on deaf ears but Football Outsiders disagrees. It's kind of a difficult stat to wrap your head around at first but (as of the eve of this last SB) in 19 postseason games Peyton has put up 2,317 DYAR compared to Brady's 1,704 DYAR in 21 games.

(Hopefully this puts to rest the notion that Eli's older brother had a habit of choking in the playoffs. Peyton Manning's postseason numbers – 63 percent accuracy, 7.5 yards per pass, 2.6 percent interception rate – are nearly identical to his regular season performances of 65 percent accuracy, 7.6 yards per pass, and 2.7 percent interception rate.)

BTW check out Warner's numbers.
posted by nathancaswell at 3:23 PM on February 10 [1 favorite]

> Guys, football is the ultimate team game.

I will always wonder what Archie himself might have accomplished if he had played his first ten years in the NFL for anybody but the Aints.
posted by jfuller at 3:23 PM on February 10 [1 favorite]

So running off to the liquor store just now and listening to the radio, they made a decent point about Peyton's sort of essential... selfishness for lack of a better word. Basically saying that in his career so far, he has done nothing to give any guidance to second-string QBs in Indy at all (and would take every rep at practice and insist that they do their reps on their own time.) Basically, they were scoffing at the idea that he would step into a transitionary role, in Indy or elsewhere.

I also think he'd take a position in the same division as Eli if the offer were good. Sometimes siblings play against one another - look at the Williams sisters. But I think he's too smart to go into as toxic a system as the Redskins, regardless.

(BTW, I went out of my way at the store and talked to a Redskins fan for what might have been my first time. He wants Peyton in Washington, as did the caller on the radio. But I don't think it's going to happen.)
posted by Navelgazer at 3:33 PM on February 10

(BTW, I went out of my way at the store and talked to a Redskins fan for what might have been my first time. He wants Peyton in Washington, as did the caller on the radio. But I don't think it's going to happen.)

I talked to some last night, and they (a) want him, (b) think he'll come, and (c) think he'll put them in the playoffs. Skins fans are silly.
posted by inigo2 at 3:57 PM on February 10

No, according to that link, he has four (2003, 2004, 2008, and 2009). Click it and see for yourself.

So 3 MVPs and one co MVP with Steve McNair. We'll call it 3.5.

"one of the great QB's "

"one of the best."

I keep sensing some hesitancy from the pro-Manning folks. Nobody is willing to come straight out and call him the best QB of all time. Nobody is willing to defend the linked articles in the post and I don't blame you.

Everyone agrees he's one of the 20 or so best QBs. That hasn't been disputed. Actually I think I understand now. Rather than try and defend the statement that he is the best, it's easier to attack the strawman argument that people are suggesting he isn't any good.
posted by euphorb at 4:05 PM on February 10

My money, (based on the experiences of others with similar injuries) is that he will never play again. I am sad.
posted by daHIFI at 4:06 PM on February 10

it's easier to attack the strawman argument that people are suggesting he isn't any good.

People are saying he is not "one of the all time greats." I'm responding to that.
posted by nathancaswell at 4:08 PM on February 10

PS I do not think he is the best QB of all time.
posted by nathancaswell at 4:08 PM on February 10

Everyone agrees he's one of the 20 or so best QBs. That hasn't been disputed.

someone up thread said "Payton Manning is not one of the all time greats." that was actually said and people responded to it. the text in the FPP is Peyton Manning is known as one of the best NFL quarterbacks of all time. it doesn't claim he's the best, it says he's one of the best.
posted by nadawi at 4:11 PM on February 10

I did link one article that makes the argument he is best ever, just for the perspective not because I necessarily agree with it. It's kosher to dispute that point, just everyone be clear where the argument is directed.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 4:15 PM on February 10

I think we can all agree that Payton Manning is to quarterbacking what Beyonce's "Single Ladies" is to music videos.
posted by Hoopo at 4:49 PM on February 10 [2 favorites]

Who are your top ten QBs of the last 30 years? Do you really put Peyton Manning at the top of the list? Does he even make the list. Top 25 and he'll be in the hall of fame. But ue has to be second tier unless like Elway he makes a late run.
posted by humanfont at 5:21 PM on February 10

I keep sensing some hesitancy from the pro-Manning folks. Nobody is willing to come straight out and call him the best QB of all time. Nobody is willing to defend the linked articles in the post and I don't blame you.

I don't think he's the best of all time. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying he is. We're saying it's absurd to say he is not an "all-time great".
posted by 3FLryan at 9:04 PM on February 10

Who are your top ten QBs of the last 30 years? Do you really put Peyton Manning at the top of the list? Does he even make the list. Top 25 and he'll be in the hall of fame. But ue has to be second tier unless like Elway he makes a late run.

You MUST be trolling, right? No one in this thread has said he's the best of all time.
posted by 3FLryan at 9:06 PM on February 10

Rather than try and defend the statement that he is the best, it's easier to attack the strawman argument that people are suggesting he isn't any good.

Why would we try to defend this statement? None of the articles seems to say "he is definitively the best", and none of us are saying it.

Instead, it would be helpful if you made an argument that he is not an "all time great". Specifically, I would enjoy a response to my earlier comment:

ow many "all time greats" are there? What does that mean?

A first shot a definition might be:

"All-time great": A player that 1) is respected for his or her supreme talent by fans, teammates, opposing players and opposing fans, 2) is at or near the top of a considerable number of statistical categories pertinent to his or her position, 3) has won, both individually and as part of a team, the highest honors of the league he or she plays in (e.g. MVP or league championship) and 4) passes a subjective test of interest/excitement/aura (e.g. "Is the importance of / interest generated by a game significantly impacted by his or her participation in the game?).

I think any reasonable definition of "all-time great" would have to include Peyton Manning, don't you think?
posted by 3FLryan at 9:13 PM on February 10

(and just to clarify, you are the person that said "Payton Manning is not one of the all time greats")
posted by 3FLryan at 9:17 PM on February 10

Actually, humanfront said that, not euphorb. But it's the same nonsense, regardless.

Apologies for the multiple posts. I'm just really excited to see a reasonable argument that "Peyton Manning is not an all-time great".
posted by 3FLryan at 9:23 PM on February 10

You MUST be trolling, right? No one in this thread has said he's the best of all time.

Not everyone that disagrees with you is trolling and it's not a good idea to go around accusing people of that.

The second link in the post makes the claim that:

Peyton Manning is the greatest quarterback in NFL history; and would be whether I proclaim that he is, or others declare that he isn't.

I found that statement ridiculous and I explained why. People must have thought that I said that Manning sucks or something because they got really upset when I dared suggest that there were about a dozen QBs that were better.
posted by euphorb at 4:46 AM on February 11

People didn't jump on you because you had Manning at 13 or whatever. They jumped on you cause you said the only thing that mattered was playoff record and SB rings and for the "he's Dan Marino with a SB ring" line.
posted by nathancaswell at 5:35 AM on February 11

It is ridiculous to exclude championships won and play off records from the criteria that elevate a quarterback into "one of the best to ever play the game". Particularly when we can point to key decisions by the player that lead to losses in those games.
posted by humanfont at 6:28 AM on February 11

It's not just about where he ranks in the greatest QB of all time list. There's a lot to be said about what he's done for the Colts and the morale of the people of Indianapolis, who unfortunately have always had a huge inferiority complex in spite of the fact that this is a pretty damn nice place to live.

The Colt moved to Indianapolis in 1984. In the 14 seasons before Peyton Manning, we won 88 of 135 regular season games, or 39.46%. We made the playoffs only three times with only 2 playoff wins.

Since Peyton Manning joined the team in 1998, our regular season record has been 141-67, or 67.79% (not including 2011.) We've made the playoffs 11 out of the 13 seasons that he played.

Maybe that explains part of why he's so wildly popular here. Peyton Manning has contributed greatly to making it fun to be a Colts fan here in flyover country.

He is a staunch Republican. He donated to both of GWB's presidential runs, as well as other Republican candidates, if that helps add any grist to your Peyton Manning hate mill.
posted by double block and bleed at 7:39 AM on February 11 [1 favorite]

Correction: 1984 - 1997: 88-135 record, not "88 of 135 regular season games".
posted by double block and bleed at 7:42 AM on February 11

I remember those two playoff wins well. The Colts, QBd by Harbaugh, and without Marshall Faulk came one ref call away from making it to the 1995 Superbowl (where they would have been crushed by the Cowboys). That was one of the greatest games I've ever seen.
posted by euphorb at 8:23 AM on February 11

humanfont: "Who are your top ten QBs of the last 30 years? Do you really put Peyton Manning at the top of the list? Does he even make the list."

1) blank
2) No
3) Yes. duh.
posted by Bonzai at 1:31 PM on February 11

humanfont: "Who are your top ten QBs of the last 30 years? Do you really put Peyton Manning at the top of the list? Does he even make the list. Top 25 and he'll be in the hall of fame."

My favorite thing about statements like this is that 90% of the time the person who says it has no idea what the list in question would actually be. I've been there myself more than a few times ("no way is Coral Sea one of the top 5 World War 2 naval battles!"), but it's also something Bill James talks about in his Historical Baseball Abstract, where someone heard that someone like Don Slaught was in his top 75 catchers of all time and was outraged. You sit down and work this stuff out and you find out pretty quickly that there just aren't that many players who are good, certainly not consistently good.

With that said, I'll hazard a guess as to what your top 10 quarterbacks since 1982 would look like:
1) Joe Montana
2) Tom Brady
3) Troy Aikman
4) John Elway
5) Ben Roethlisberger
6) Eli Manning
7) Brett Favre
8) Kurt Warner
9) Steve Young
10) Phil Simms? The first 4 years of Aaron Rodgers? Drew Brees? The last 4 years of Joe Theismann?

If you take winning a Super Bowl as the only worthwhile measure of greatness, well, there are only 21 quarterbacks who've done that over the last 30 years and nearly half of them are no one's idea of an all-time great.
posted by Copronymus at 1:47 PM on February 12

My favorite thing about statements like this is that 90% of the time the person who says it has no idea what the list in question would actually be

Ten percent of the time do you make up a different fake statistic to bolster your bullshit? Nice to see a scout for the Redskins post on Metafilter. I'm sure your talent evaluation skills are appreciated there. I mean who cares about winning championships, how many jerseys will that guy sell and imagine the offseason buzz.
posted by humanfont at 6:31 PM on February 12

humanfont: "Ten percent of the time do you make up a different fake statistic to bolster your bullshit? Nice to see a scout for the Redskins post on Metafilter. I'm sure your talent evaluation skills are appreciated there. I mean who cares about winning championships, how many jerseys will that guy sell and imagine the offseason buzz."

Well, shoot, I've given you a chance to post your list of the top 10 quarterbacks since 1982, and I'd be interested to see it. If you've got one, clearly you're not part of my hypothetical 90%.
posted by Copronymus at 7:55 PM on February 12

Gosh, Why would I want to spoil your smug feelings of sportsnerd superiority by crushing you with a definitive list of top ten QBs from the last 30 years? It might distract you from finding the next Heath Shuler or Ryan Leaf to replace Rex Grossman.
posted by humanfont at 8:56 PM on February 12

Hey look its espn.com
posted by nathancaswell at 8:58 PM on February 12

It is ridiculous to exclude championships won and play off records from the criteria that elevate a quarterback into "one of the best to ever play the game".

No, it is not ridiculous. It is ridiculous to think that postseason performance is the final measuring stick by which we determine such things. There are great QBs (of all time!) who have never been to a Super Bowl, or who have won only one. Are they "less great" because they didn't lead a dynasty?

Are you seriously trying to make an argument that Eli Manning is a better quarterback than his brother is and father was?
posted by Edison Carter at 6:27 AM on February 13

By almost any other statistical measure Eli is much better than Archie. It seems you just don't like Eli.
posted by humanfont at 8:02 AM on February 13

By almost any other statistical measure Eli is much better than Archie.

And by any other statistical measure, Peyton is much better than Eli.

It seems you just don't like Eli.

I have *nothing* against Eli. In fact, I *like* Eli. he was my fantasy QB for multiple seasons, and I'm happy he can (hopefully) get the sniping critics off his back that "he's not good enough".

But if I have a choice for QB, in his prime, I'm going to pick Peyton over Eli. Every. Single. Time.

It seems you just don't like Peyton.
posted by Edison Carter at 8:14 AM on February 13

I have nothing against Peyton. I just think he has been overrated in this thread. The suggestion that he was the best of his era is not clear cut. Drew Brees, Ben Rothlesberg, Tom Bradey, Eli Manning, Aaron Rogers, Marc Bulger, Kurt Warner, Philip Rivers, Trent Green, Bret Farve and others all have been in or are in contention for the title. One should also consider how the Colts no huddle offense helped his stats, especially against weaker teams during the regular season, but perhaps hurt them in playoff games.
posted by humanfont at 5:54 PM on February 13

Marc Bulger? What?
posted by nathancaswell at 7:55 PM on February 13

Pre injury Carson Palmer looked like he might be in the conversation but Bulger?
posted by nathancaswell at 7:57 PM on February 13

Bulger got to a thousand completions faster than any quarterback in NFL history. He had a lot of buzz back in the early days after he displaced Kurt Warner.
posted by humanfont at 7:43 PM on February 14

Just heard that Peyton Manning had not three but FOUR neck surgeries (apparently he had one during the lockout).
posted by KingEdRa at 9:16 AM on February 16