Windows Consumer Preview 8 ISO
February 29, 2012 10:48 AM Subscribe
Curious about windows 8? ISO images for the 'consumer preview' version are available from Microsoft. Typically these previews expire at a certain date, but the previously released developer preview won't expire until January 15th, 2013. You can use the Open Source Virtual Box to run the OS in a virtual machine (instructions for installing windows 8) Previously: 1, 2,
For those that don't know, using a virtual machine lets you boot the OS somewhat like regular application on your machine, except unlike an application the guest OS will be totally isolated and won't be able to 'do anything' to external system. The VM instructions were for the dev preview, but will probably work with the consumer preview.
For those that don't know, using a virtual machine lets you boot the OS somewhat like regular application on your machine, except unlike an application the guest OS will be totally isolated and won't be able to 'do anything' to external system. The VM instructions were for the dev preview, but will probably work with the consumer preview.
Will this install easily on VMware Fusion on my mac? (downloading now, hoping it'll work)
posted by mathowie at 10:52 AM on February 29, 2012
posted by mathowie at 10:52 AM on February 29, 2012
This is an interesting new step for Microsoft. Can't say I dislike the idea. Curious what 8 is all about, this'll be a good way to see.
posted by Malice at 10:57 AM on February 29, 2012
posted by Malice at 10:57 AM on February 29, 2012
Drivers for most hardware is available on windows update already - the preview looks much nicer now that my quadro 600 has the drivers installed.
Also, if you have a windows live account (hotmail, messenger, etc.) you can use that to log in.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:58 AM on February 29, 2012
Also, if you have a windows live account (hotmail, messenger, etc.) you can use that to log in.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:58 AM on February 29, 2012
Curious about windows 8?
If you're a Mac user, does that make you bi-curious?
posted by Horace Rumpole at 11:00 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
If you're a Mac user, does that make you bi-curious?
posted by Horace Rumpole at 11:00 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
Also, the tablety interface is a little annoying with a mouse and keyboard, but they seem to have gestures for the mouse that smooths things over. Takes some getting used to.
I really like the new ribbon interface on Explorer, too - so far.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:00 AM on February 29, 2012
I really like the new ribbon interface on Explorer, too - so far.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:00 AM on February 29, 2012
Windows 8 on 82 Inch touchscreen
Wow, it really does look like they are going all out on the whole touchscreen UI thing - what I;d assumed to be a fairly ungainly dual mode thing with the desktop being a peer of Metro is now looking more like Metro is the primary interface and Desktop is more of a secondary legacy support thing... not entirely sure how I feel about that.
posted by Artw at 11:01 AM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wow, it really does look like they are going all out on the whole touchscreen UI thing - what I;d assumed to be a fairly ungainly dual mode thing with the desktop being a peer of Metro is now looking more like Metro is the primary interface and Desktop is more of a secondary legacy support thing... not entirely sure how I feel about that.
posted by Artw at 11:01 AM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
MeFi's own emtpyage has some posts up at Gizmodo today (like this one) on Win8 highlights.
posted by mathowie at 11:02 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by mathowie at 11:02 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
I just finished burning this to a DVD and I'm super excited to go home and install it on my Lenovo Thinkpad tablet tonight.
Yes, that's right, I'm super excited to go home and install it.
posted by kbanas at 11:05 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yes, that's right, I'm super excited to go home and install it.
posted by kbanas at 11:05 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
Nope, I'm the same as ever, Burhanistan!
posted by hincandenza at 11:17 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by hincandenza at 11:17 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
WTF would you run windows 8 instead of iOS on a iPad? Spend a third the money on a similar form factor tablet designed to run W8.
posted by kjs3 at 11:27 AM on February 29, 2012
posted by kjs3 at 11:27 AM on February 29, 2012
Same reason you would run Windows on a mac: you can dual-boot to a proprietary OS.
posted by hellphish at 11:29 AM on February 29, 2012
posted by hellphish at 11:29 AM on February 29, 2012
Eight reasons why Steven Sinofsky is Microsoft's next CEO
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
Will this install easily on VMware Fusion on my mac? (downloading now, hoping it'll work)
Yep, just did for me. Tell Fusion that it's Windows 7 64-bit, which will automatically give it plenty of memory to work with. Installed in 20 minutes! (Running Fusion 4.11)
I laughed when Solitaire came up with an ESRB warning screen.
posted by xedrik at 11:33 AM on February 29, 2012
Yep, just did for me. Tell Fusion that it's Windows 7 64-bit, which will automatically give it plenty of memory to work with. Installed in 20 minutes! (Running Fusion 4.11)
I laughed when Solitaire came up with an ESRB warning screen.
posted by xedrik at 11:33 AM on February 29, 2012
mathowie: MeFi's own emtpyage has some posts up at Gizmodo today (like this one) on Win8 highlights.
If the highlights aren't enough, here's a Wikipedia page for features new to Windows 8. The biggest thing is the Metro typography-base design language and Metro interface, as seen in this screencast with narration, and this video of interface usage and this longer video of use from login to use of Internet Explorer and other apps.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:34 AM on February 29, 2012 [3 favorites]
If the highlights aren't enough, here's a Wikipedia page for features new to Windows 8. The biggest thing is the Metro typography-base design language and Metro interface, as seen in this screencast with narration, and this video of interface usage and this longer video of use from login to use of Internet Explorer and other apps.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:34 AM on February 29, 2012 [3 favorites]
It worked for me in VMware Fusion, installing it as a new Win7 x64 image (screenshot of this thread running in IE 10)
So far in three minutes of using it, it feels a tad annoying how it hides absolutely everything, even the address bar in the browser (which I can't reliably get to show up with a mouse).
posted by mathowie at 11:34 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
So far in three minutes of using it, it feels a tad annoying how it hides absolutely everything, even the address bar in the browser (which I can't reliably get to show up with a mouse).
posted by mathowie at 11:34 AM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
griphus: “Any news on the secure boot nonsense?”
The news is that Microsoft continues to lie about its requirements, and that makes all of this extremely disconcerting. They have said that "Microsoft does not mandate or control the settings on PC firmware that control or enable secured boot from any operating system other than Windows," but this is flatly untrue, since in December Microsoft mandated that all ARM architectures completely disable the option to turn off secure boot.
Basically, Microsoft has made it impossible (at least without a great deal of difficulty) for you to buy an ARM machine with Windows 8 on it and install Linux. This is more than a little worrisome.
The lesson is: Microsoft is still evil. Windows 8 is a plague.
posted by koeselitz at 11:34 AM on February 29, 2012 [14 favorites]
The news is that Microsoft continues to lie about its requirements, and that makes all of this extremely disconcerting. They have said that "Microsoft does not mandate or control the settings on PC firmware that control or enable secured boot from any operating system other than Windows," but this is flatly untrue, since in December Microsoft mandated that all ARM architectures completely disable the option to turn off secure boot.
Basically, Microsoft has made it impossible (at least without a great deal of difficulty) for you to buy an ARM machine with Windows 8 on it and install Linux. This is more than a little worrisome.
The lesson is: Microsoft is still evil. Windows 8 is a plague.
posted by koeselitz at 11:34 AM on February 29, 2012 [14 favorites]
Maybe they want a dual-boot thing so they can run their corporate apps by day and then have an iOS-based thing by night.
Microsoft’s Biggest Miss
Then, she explained, the iPhone came. There was no Office. People got things done. Then the iPad came. There was no Office. People got things done. Android came. People got things done. All of those things that they, just a couple of years ago, were convinced they needed Office to do. They got them done without it. And thus, the truth was revealed.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:35 AM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
Microsoft’s Biggest Miss
Then, she explained, the iPhone came. There was no Office. People got things done. Then the iPad came. There was no Office. People got things done. Android came. People got things done. All of those things that they, just a couple of years ago, were convinced they needed Office to do. They got them done without it. And thus, the truth was revealed.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:35 AM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
WTF would you run windows 8 instead of iOS on a iPad?
Our office uses a lot of deeply-integrated, proprietary Windows software. I have yet to find a Windows tablet as sleek or sexy as my iPad. If I had a spare to play wish, you can bet I'd be working to get Windows installed on it.
posted by xedrik at 11:35 AM on February 29, 2012
Our office uses a lot of deeply-integrated, proprietary Windows software. I have yet to find a Windows tablet as sleek or sexy as my iPad. If I had a spare to play wish, you can bet I'd be working to get Windows installed on it.
posted by xedrik at 11:35 AM on February 29, 2012
mathowie, right click. that gets the menus back up in short order. Guaranteed.
posted by deezil at 11:35 AM on February 29, 2012
posted by deezil at 11:35 AM on February 29, 2012
Windows 8 on 82 Inch touchscreen
brb off to buy Windex stock
posted by nathancaswell at 11:36 AM on February 29, 2012 [14 favorites]
brb off to buy Windex stock
posted by nathancaswell at 11:36 AM on February 29, 2012 [14 favorites]
kjs3: “WTF would you run windows 8 instead of iOS on a iPad? Spend a third the money on a similar form factor tablet designed to run W8.”
hellphish: “Same reason you would run Windows on a mac: you can dual-boot to a proprietary OS.”
Not really, no. Microsoft has basically made it impossible to muck around with dual booting and all that. That's a "feature" of Windows 8 on ARM.
posted by koeselitz at 11:38 AM on February 29, 2012
hellphish: “Same reason you would run Windows on a mac: you can dual-boot to a proprietary OS.”
Not really, no. Microsoft has basically made it impossible to muck around with dual booting and all that. That's a "feature" of Windows 8 on ARM.
posted by koeselitz at 11:38 AM on February 29, 2012
Burhanistan: “Have they? It seems likely that some clever developers will come up with a way to isolate or re-partition the storage in iPads/Android tablets to get around that.”
Sorry, I should be clearer.
On Android or iOS devices, you can mess around all you want; and Windows 8 still works with BIOS (and other non-proprietary boot loaders.)
However, MS has made it mandatory that all ARM devices that ship with Windows 8 (that is, pretty much all Windows 8 tablets) must have the locked-down bootloader, and must disable the option for turning it off that would enable dual booting into "unsigned" OSes. That pretty much makes dual booting impossible unless you wipe the boot loader and start over.
So what I mean is: don't buy a Windows 8 tablet. You'll be locked out of doing anything interesting like what you're describing. And there are no clever ways to "get around" a locked-down boot loader. Have you ever wiped your BIOS and reinstalled? It's difficult enough on many machines to flash the BIOS, and this is likely to be a much more difficult procedure. It's certainly never going to be on the level of popping in a DVD and having Ubuntu hold your hand through a simple automatic repartitioning.
posted by koeselitz at 11:50 AM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
Sorry, I should be clearer.
On Android or iOS devices, you can mess around all you want; and Windows 8 still works with BIOS (and other non-proprietary boot loaders.)
However, MS has made it mandatory that all ARM devices that ship with Windows 8 (that is, pretty much all Windows 8 tablets) must have the locked-down bootloader, and must disable the option for turning it off that would enable dual booting into "unsigned" OSes. That pretty much makes dual booting impossible unless you wipe the boot loader and start over.
So what I mean is: don't buy a Windows 8 tablet. You'll be locked out of doing anything interesting like what you're describing. And there are no clever ways to "get around" a locked-down boot loader. Have you ever wiped your BIOS and reinstalled? It's difficult enough on many machines to flash the BIOS, and this is likely to be a much more difficult procedure. It's certainly never going to be on the level of popping in a DVD and having Ubuntu hold your hand through a simple automatic repartitioning.
posted by koeselitz at 11:50 AM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
I've been using it for about an hour to get some real work done. It feels like two interfaces glued together. The old desktop and the new Metro UI. Each one is fairly well executed but the transition between them can be jarring. For example, opening an attachment in the mail client and being thrown into the traditional windows desktop to view it in another application is a horrible experience.
Other than that it's not bad. Learning to navigate the new interface with a keyboard and mouse takes some time but on a tablet I could see it working beautifully.
Another interesting side effect is since all the applications run full screen all the time it encourages a high level of focus. That's a good thing and I think I'll have to try to recreate it in my normal environment.
posted by samhyland at 11:59 AM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Other than that it's not bad. Learning to navigate the new interface with a keyboard and mouse takes some time but on a tablet I could see it working beautifully.
Another interesting side effect is since all the applications run full screen all the time it encourages a high level of focus. That's a good thing and I think I'll have to try to recreate it in my normal environment.
posted by samhyland at 11:59 AM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Any video previews that show it working with a traditional mouse/keyboard setup? All I see is people using touchscreens to show off the new UI.
posted by thecjm at 12:02 PM on February 29, 2012
posted by thecjm at 12:02 PM on February 29, 2012
While I appreciate flt's posting the links about Win 8, this one offers me nothing but pain. What the holy hell is a 'share charm'? (I don't really want to know). Maybe 8 will work out for Microsoft, but I'm skeptical. Nonetheless, I will give it a whirl forthwith.
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 12:04 PM on February 29, 2012
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 12:04 PM on February 29, 2012
So what I am getting is this: They have absolutely, unequivocally made the Tablet PC concept, which has been flopping around like a dying fish since 2005 without gaining any purchase and which a lot of people had written off as a dumb idea next to tablets based on PMP and Phone OSes.
That is quite the achievement.
On the other hand, nobody seems all that satisfied with the traditional desktop experience, and it seems like it's a legacy thing that going to be left behind or only be there for the dedicated tinkerers to do obscure things.
That's quite the risk.
I'll give them this: they are being a hell of a lot bolder with this stuff than Apple is with it's timid steps towards iOsifying the Mac.
posted by Artw at 12:12 PM on February 29, 2012
That is quite the achievement.
On the other hand, nobody seems all that satisfied with the traditional desktop experience, and it seems like it's a legacy thing that going to be left behind or only be there for the dedicated tinkerers to do obscure things.
That's quite the risk.
I'll give them this: they are being a hell of a lot bolder with this stuff than Apple is with it's timid steps towards iOsifying the Mac.
posted by Artw at 12:12 PM on February 29, 2012
I hope it works out for them, because Windows 7 is a splendid OS. Pretty, stable, does what you need when you need it.
posted by Sebmojo at 12:12 PM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 12:12 PM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
This is an interesting new step for Microsoft. Can't say I dislike the idea. Curious what 8 is all about, this'll be a good way to see.
They've been doing it for a long time. I remember people playing around with dev previews of Windows 2000. I think it was just something you could download and install.
posted by delmoi at 12:37 PM on February 29, 2012
They've been doing it for a long time. I remember people playing around with dev previews of Windows 2000. I think it was just something you could download and install.
posted by delmoi at 12:37 PM on February 29, 2012
They've been doing it for a long time. I remember people playing around with dev previews of Windows 2000. I think it was just something you could download and install.
When I was a wee Meanie I got the consumer preview of Windows 95, so they've been doing it a long time indeed. I remember it making my shiny new Pentium box run like a 386.
I haven't cared about preview OSs for quite a while - I don't go near a new OS from anyone until the first service pack or equivalent - but MS did a great job with 7 and I'm curious enough about 8 that I'm downloading it now. We'll see how it runs in Parallels on my MBP.
posted by Blue Meanie at 12:50 PM on February 29, 2012
When I was a wee Meanie I got the consumer preview of Windows 95, so they've been doing it a long time indeed. I remember it making my shiny new Pentium box run like a 386.
I haven't cared about preview OSs for quite a while - I don't go near a new OS from anyone until the first service pack or equivalent - but MS did a great job with 7 and I'm curious enough about 8 that I'm downloading it now. We'll see how it runs in Parallels on my MBP.
posted by Blue Meanie at 12:50 PM on February 29, 2012
I've learned from experience to skip every other version of Windows.
posted by Manjusri at 12:52 PM on February 29, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by Manjusri at 12:52 PM on February 29, 2012 [8 favorites]
Then, she explained, the iPhone came. There was no Office. People got things done. Then the iPad came. There was no Office. People got things done. Android came. People got things done. All of those things that they, just a couple of years ago, were convinced they needed Office to do. They got them done without it. And thus, the truth was revealed.
I would like to meet these legions of workers who are 'getting [office] things done' strictly using iPads and iPhones. Good luck responding to a public sector RFP using an iPad.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 12:57 PM on February 29, 2012 [6 favorites]
I would like to meet these legions of workers who are 'getting [office] things done' strictly using iPads and iPhones. Good luck responding to a public sector RFP using an iPad.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 12:57 PM on February 29, 2012 [6 favorites]
WTF would you run windows 8 instead of iOS on a iPad? Spend a third the money on a similar form factor tablet designed to run W8.Maybe you already own an iPad?
Basically, Microsoft has made it impossible (at least without a great deal of difficulty) for you to buy an ARM machine with Windows 8 on it and install Linux. This is more than a little worrisome.So get one with Android and you don't even need to do any work, since it already comes with a Linux kernel :). Windows won't have a monopoly on tablets like it did on desktop PCs. And you can still dual boot some other device into windows if you want, I would imagine.
I seriously doubt I'd ever get a windows tablet, and I'm obviously not a fan of locked down hardware. But it's not any worse then the iPad, which comes locked down and needs to be jailbroken.
And there are no clever ways to "get around" a locked-down boot loader. Have you ever wiped your BIOS and reinstalled? It's difficult enough on many machines to flash the BIOS, and this is likely to be a much more difficult procedure.The last motherboard I bought has a feature that lets you boot using a BIOS image on a USB stick.
And besides, people sell PCs in the tablet formfactor if you really want a tablet. this one for example has an Intel core i5 and 4 gigs of ram. And it's $1k Battery life is probably terrible, but it should work like any other PC. Let's not forget "Tablet PCs" have been around for years, years before the iPad. You could install windows or Linux or any other OS. There are also some atom based tablets for as little as $499.
posted by delmoi at 12:59 PM on February 29, 2012
I've learned from experience to skip every other version of Windows.
Eh, they haven't released a decent version of Windows since Windows II: The Wrath of Khan.
posted by griphus at 12:59 PM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
Eh, they haven't released a decent version of Windows since Windows II: The Wrath of Khan.
posted by griphus at 12:59 PM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
delmoi: “The last motherboard I bought has a feature that lets you boot using a BIOS image on a USB stick.”
Which is really neat, and which (as I said) will not be possible on any ARM device shipped with Windows 8. It's debatable whether it'll even be possible at all on any stock machine shipped with Windows 8; it certainly won't be the default.
posted by koeselitz at 1:14 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Which is really neat, and which (as I said) will not be possible on any ARM device shipped with Windows 8. It's debatable whether it'll even be possible at all on any stock machine shipped with Windows 8; it certainly won't be the default.
posted by koeselitz at 1:14 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
When I think of all the OSs I've used and played with, it occurs to me (perhaps belatedly) that all of them have done what I need: email, calendering, presentations, spreadsheets, documents, photo editing, music production, etc. And they've all done all of this pretty well since at least the mid 1990s.
I'm sure the latest Windows will do these things too.
posted by quarterframer at 1:18 PM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
I'm sure the latest Windows will do these things too.
posted by quarterframer at 1:18 PM on February 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
I'm guessing that 90% of users will just end up scraping off the Metro interface and going back to what they're used to. It looks cool, but I just do not see it being an efficient interface for any kind of real work.
posted by Mitrovarr at 1:31 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitrovarr at 1:31 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would like to meet these legions of workers who are 'getting [office] things done' strictly using iPads and iPhones. Good luck responding to a public sector RFP using an iPad.
Dunno about legions, but people are moving away from Windows in the enterprise:
Apple's iPad driving accelerated enterprise transition away from printing
Huberty went on to claim that the increase of "bring your own device" corporate policies will put "rising pressure" on printing in the enterprise. A Morgan Stanley survey of CIOs from last month revealed that 48 percent of them expect to allow tablets on company networks this year, up from 16 percent last January. That number is expected to increase even further to 66 percent by January 2013...
The analyst described tablet penetration in the enterprise as "nascent," while noting that rapid growth is taking place. Citing figures from IDC, she noted that the percentage of tablets in the enterprise as compared to the entire tablet market has risen to 5.6 percent, up from 0.8 percent in first quarter of 2010, the quarter before Apple released the iPad.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:38 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Dunno about legions, but people are moving away from Windows in the enterprise:
Apple's iPad driving accelerated enterprise transition away from printing
Huberty went on to claim that the increase of "bring your own device" corporate policies will put "rising pressure" on printing in the enterprise. A Morgan Stanley survey of CIOs from last month revealed that 48 percent of them expect to allow tablets on company networks this year, up from 16 percent last January. That number is expected to increase even further to 66 percent by January 2013...
The analyst described tablet penetration in the enterprise as "nascent," while noting that rapid growth is taking place. Citing figures from IDC, she noted that the percentage of tablets in the enterprise as compared to the entire tablet market has risen to 5.6 percent, up from 0.8 percent in first quarter of 2010, the quarter before Apple released the iPad.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:38 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing that 90% of users will just end up scraping off the Metro interface and going back to what they're used to. It looks cool, but I just do not see it being an efficient interface for any kind of real work.
I suspect it will be most useful to people like my wife who uses her desktop to do "work" stuff - edit documents, spreadsheets, - Stuff tablets aren't good at. Then she grabs her tablet to sit on the sofa and surf the internet and chat with friends while she watches dumbTV.
Windows 8 has a built in sync feature such that her email, calendar, and stuff will sync between the devices. Although, she already does this - facebook, gmail and whatever are already "cloud based" - the integration is tighter in Windows 8.
So, she does the heavy lifting on a computer and the light stuff on a tablet.
I have researchers who work the same way. The PC runs matlab, the tablet does the calendar and to-do lists.
More tightly integrating those devices into the workflow is the way of the future.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:44 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
I suspect it will be most useful to people like my wife who uses her desktop to do "work" stuff - edit documents, spreadsheets, - Stuff tablets aren't good at. Then she grabs her tablet to sit on the sofa and surf the internet and chat with friends while she watches dumbTV.
Windows 8 has a built in sync feature such that her email, calendar, and stuff will sync between the devices. Although, she already does this - facebook, gmail and whatever are already "cloud based" - the integration is tighter in Windows 8.
So, she does the heavy lifting on a computer and the light stuff on a tablet.
I have researchers who work the same way. The PC runs matlab, the tablet does the calendar and to-do lists.
More tightly integrating those devices into the workflow is the way of the future.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:44 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Another interesting side effect is since all the applications run full screen all the time it encourages a high level of focus. That's a good thing and I think I'll have to try to recreate it in my normal environment.
Windows has been going this way for a while and it blows. Not being able to have say calculator, and acrobat document and AutoCAD running side by side is a serious pain in the ass.
Which is really neat, and which (as I said) will not be possible on any ARM device shipped with Windows 8. It's debatable whether it'll even be possible at all on any stock machine shipped with Windows 8; it certainly won't be the default.
I wonder if this isn't an operation foot:bullet for MS. It relies on being able to cow OEMs into not shipping bare machines and only shipping Windows machines. Hard to say whether they still have that capability going forward. It also depends on some company like Deal Extreme not cutting a deal with the guys actually making ASUS or what ever laptops to back door bare machines.
It also depends on hackers not being able to crack the secure boot. The history of this is poor.
posted by Mitheral at 1:53 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Windows has been going this way for a while and it blows. Not being able to have say calculator, and acrobat document and AutoCAD running side by side is a serious pain in the ass.
Which is really neat, and which (as I said) will not be possible on any ARM device shipped with Windows 8. It's debatable whether it'll even be possible at all on any stock machine shipped with Windows 8; it certainly won't be the default.
I wonder if this isn't an operation foot:bullet for MS. It relies on being able to cow OEMs into not shipping bare machines and only shipping Windows machines. Hard to say whether they still have that capability going forward. It also depends on some company like Deal Extreme not cutting a deal with the guys actually making ASUS or what ever laptops to back door bare machines.
It also depends on hackers not being able to crack the secure boot. The history of this is poor.
posted by Mitheral at 1:53 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
people are moving away from Windows in the enterprise
Until Apple fixes their security and policy management models the public sector, at least, can't switch. This is one reason Windows (and Blackberries) continue to hang on. There have been trials of Apple gear in my organization, and they have not ended well.
posted by bonehead at 1:55 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Until Apple fixes their security and policy management models the public sector, at least, can't switch. This is one reason Windows (and Blackberries) continue to hang on. There have been trials of Apple gear in my organization, and they have not ended well.
posted by bonehead at 1:55 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'd like to see a venn diagram of people who buy full machines vs. linux users
posted by MangyCarface at 1:56 PM on February 29, 2012
posted by MangyCarface at 1:56 PM on February 29, 2012
"Curous about Windows 8?"
As someone who has been fighting against restrictive, intractable Microsoft software since my earliest days using computers, and who believes they finally have a respectable, stable product with Windows 7, which now they want to overhaul everything in order to compete in a market in which they have little chance of success being latecomers with an image that is the opposite of 'sexy':
No. Hell No.
posted by hellslinger at 2:06 PM on February 29, 2012 [7 favorites]
As someone who has been fighting against restrictive, intractable Microsoft software since my earliest days using computers, and who believes they finally have a respectable, stable product with Windows 7, which now they want to overhaul everything in order to compete in a market in which they have little chance of success being latecomers with an image that is the opposite of 'sexy':
No. Hell No.
posted by hellslinger at 2:06 PM on February 29, 2012 [7 favorites]
Good point. Forcing their products down the throats of unsuspecting consumers has always been their Forte.
posted by hellslinger at 2:18 PM on February 29, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by hellslinger at 2:18 PM on February 29, 2012 [5 favorites]
I'm curious if they're planning to charge full price for the ARM-based version of the OS for tablets. If OEMs have the choice of slapping Windows on their tablet for $50 (or whatever MS charges for OEM bulk rate licences) or $15 for Android it might not be pretty for Redmond. I think I see why MS is wanting a fully locked bootloader. A bunch of dual Windows/Android tablets would probably lead to some chair throwing.
I'm also curious of MS is going to demand OEMs go exclusively Win8 with their tablets in order to get reduced prices on licenses.
posted by mullingitover at 3:01 PM on February 29, 2012
I'm also curious of MS is going to demand OEMs go exclusively Win8 with their tablets in order to get reduced prices on licenses.
posted by mullingitover at 3:01 PM on February 29, 2012
Burhanistan: "Well, the bulk of their profits will be from enterprise sales."
They hope. Right now the iPad is the proven enterprise tablet solution, and will be three generations in, and Win8 tablets will be the risky upstart.
posted by mullingitover at 3:18 PM on February 29, 2012
They hope. Right now the iPad is the proven enterprise tablet solution, and will be three generations in, and Win8 tablets will be the risky upstart.
posted by mullingitover at 3:18 PM on February 29, 2012
If you're a Mac user, does that make you bi-curious?
Maybe buy-curious?
posted by mazola at 3:19 PM on February 29, 2012
Maybe buy-curious?
posted by mazola at 3:19 PM on February 29, 2012
I'm excited for Windows 98. Simple math lets you know that it's going to be much better.
posted by Fizz at 3:19 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 3:19 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Burhanistan: "That's how they will sell well, same as how Dell/HP/Lenovo keep selling units...corporate inertia."
How's that working out for RIM?
posted by mullingitover at 3:28 PM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
How's that working out for RIM?
posted by mullingitover at 3:28 PM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
"THERE ARE NO IPADS IN ENTERPRISE! " --Burhanistan Bob
posted by entropicamericana at 3:38 PM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 3:38 PM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
it's pretty obvious that corporate IT departments aren't going to start replacing end user systems with anything but more Windows devices
Windows will still move units, but I'm not sure that enterprise exclusivity is a given, any longer. People (and IT) simply need Microsoft less and less.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:40 PM on February 29, 2012
Windows will still move units, but I'm not sure that enterprise exclusivity is a given, any longer. People (and IT) simply need Microsoft less and less.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:40 PM on February 29, 2012
So what has changed between the previous Win 8 release and now? Any new features, or just more stability?
posted by the cydonian at 3:44 PM on February 29, 2012
posted by the cydonian at 3:44 PM on February 29, 2012
Burhanistan: "Corporate IT departments will by Win8 tablets precisely because they can phase them into to their existing LDAP environments"
I'm not sure why you keep citing LDAP. It's AD people want. And mostly for GPOs and maybe Kerberos.
Probably the greater challenge is going to be the tablet lifecycle. Apple's discontinued the iPad 1 as soon as the ipad 2 launched. Asus keeps announcing new transformers before the last one they announced has actually launched. I don't see how Microsoft can fix that, and I figure that means even if you decided to standardize on iPads, in five years you'd still have 5 models in service at any one time. In addition to people who still want their laptops, and desktops, and other things you've already approved in the past. Because as we all know, you can't kill a service once you've offered it to users. You just keep growing the ugly ball of twine and fantasize about how you'd greenfield your startup.
posted by pwnguin at 3:46 PM on February 29, 2012
I'm not sure why you keep citing LDAP. It's AD people want. And mostly for GPOs and maybe Kerberos.
Probably the greater challenge is going to be the tablet lifecycle. Apple's discontinued the iPad 1 as soon as the ipad 2 launched. Asus keeps announcing new transformers before the last one they announced has actually launched. I don't see how Microsoft can fix that, and I figure that means even if you decided to standardize on iPads, in five years you'd still have 5 models in service at any one time. In addition to people who still want their laptops, and desktops, and other things you've already approved in the past. Because as we all know, you can't kill a service once you've offered it to users. You just keep growing the ugly ball of twine and fantasize about how you'd greenfield your startup.
posted by pwnguin at 3:46 PM on February 29, 2012
Burhanistan: "Windows may see a decline in marketshare, but my point was that they will sell lots of these. End of story."
At least when it comes to desktops, I think Win8 will do just fine. It's in the tablet space, which this release is aimed squarely (desperately?) at, where I think this will be a disappointment for them.
posted by mullingitover at 3:46 PM on February 29, 2012
At least when it comes to desktops, I think Win8 will do just fine. It's in the tablet space, which this release is aimed squarely (desperately?) at, where I think this will be a disappointment for them.
posted by mullingitover at 3:46 PM on February 29, 2012
It's in the tablet space, which this release is aimed squarely (desperately?) at, where I think this will be a disappointment for them.
Ballmer sat on his hands while he laughed at Apple users, and Jobs ate his lunch in just a couple years. If Microsoft can't beat Android on per-device licensing costs, I predict they will have an even more miserable time than Google in trying to get a foot in the iPad market, because Microsoft will be fighting a two-front war of Google's price point for software and Apple's sheer dominance in hardware sales.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:52 PM on February 29, 2012
Ballmer sat on his hands while he laughed at Apple users, and Jobs ate his lunch in just a couple years. If Microsoft can't beat Android on per-device licensing costs, I predict they will have an even more miserable time than Google in trying to get a foot in the iPad market, because Microsoft will be fighting a two-front war of Google's price point for software and Apple's sheer dominance in hardware sales.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:52 PM on February 29, 2012
How's that working out for RIM?
About as well as its working out for Dell (hey guys, we're the new IBM!).
Get over your fanboyism.
posted by Burhanistan
Please don't do this. When someone shows 5 links refuting your statement, either show where they're wrong or admit your mistake. Take your own advice about not being a Jackass.
posted by justgary at 4:00 PM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
About as well as its working out for Dell (hey guys, we're the new IBM!).
Get over your fanboyism.
posted by Burhanistan
Please don't do this. When someone shows 5 links refuting your statement, either show where they're wrong or admit your mistake. Take your own advice about not being a Jackass.
posted by justgary at 4:00 PM on February 29, 2012 [2 favorites]
I also understand the KKK have spoken out against the Westboro Baptist Church.
posted by davemee at 4:39 PM on February 29, 2012
posted by davemee at 4:39 PM on February 29, 2012
Yeah, the "Burhanistan Bob" thing was obnoxious. By all means disagree if must, but try not to be so childishly abrasive.
posted by koeselitz at 5:32 PM on February 29, 2012
posted by koeselitz at 5:32 PM on February 29, 2012
I'm not sure why you keep citing LDAP. It's AD people want.
AD is LDAP:
AD is LDAP:
Active Directory uses Lightweight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP) versions 2 and 3, Kerberos and DNS.posted by robertc at 5:41 PM on February 29, 2012
If OEMs have the choice of slapping Windows on their tablet for $50 (or whatever MS charges for OEM bulk rate licences) or $15 for Android it might not be pretty for Redmond.
On the other hand, most of the cost involved in Android is the that of licenses for Microsoft patents.
posted by robertc at 5:45 PM on February 29, 2012
On the other hand, most of the cost involved in Android is the that of licenses for Microsoft patents.
posted by robertc at 5:45 PM on February 29, 2012
robertc: "On the other hand, most of the cost involved in Android is the that of licenses for Microsoft patents."
That's the $15 I was referring to.
posted by mullingitover at 5:49 PM on February 29, 2012
That's the $15 I was referring to.
posted by mullingitover at 5:49 PM on February 29, 2012
No domain membership or enterprise management for Windows 8 on ARM
Touting the long battery life of ARM-based devices, the guide tempers expectations: "Although the ARM-based version of Windows does not include the same manageability features that are in 32-bit and 64-bit versions, businesses can use these power-saving devices in unmanaged environments." That means ARM devices won't be able to be added to Active Directory domains and have their user access managed by system administrators, or be remotely managed through Microsoft's System Center environment.posted by XMLicious at 6:15 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
No domain membership or enterprise management for Windows 8 on ARM
...what? I might be missing something obvious here, but why would they leave out security / networking features depending on the type of processor? Whose bright idea was that?
posted by Jimbob at 6:35 PM on February 29, 2012
...what? I might be missing something obvious here, but why would they leave out security / networking features depending on the type of processor? Whose bright idea was that?
posted by Jimbob at 6:35 PM on February 29, 2012
I haven't tested it myself, but from the impression of other tech-savy users, Windows 8 will be more hated and less adopted than Vista.
For example, this will be your new start menu.
posted by ymgve at 9:03 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
For example, this will be your new start menu.
posted by ymgve at 9:03 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
...what? I might be missing something obvious here, but why would they leave out security / networking features depending on the type of processor? Whose bright idea was that?
I suspect that MS expects that there will be a division of tablet/microPCs along processor lines. i.e. Intel x86 (Atom) for businesses and ARM for personal use.
I don't know how viable that notion is, but given MS's previous very close ties to Intel, I wonder how much back pressure they are getting them. Feature parity on the OS would make processor choice boil down to competitive features, so it is in Intel's interest to muddy the waters - You can have your ARM tablet, but no GPO for you!
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:14 PM on February 29, 2012
I suspect that MS expects that there will be a division of tablet/microPCs along processor lines. i.e. Intel x86 (Atom) for businesses and ARM for personal use.
I don't know how viable that notion is, but given MS's previous very close ties to Intel, I wonder how much back pressure they are getting them. Feature parity on the OS would make processor choice boil down to competitive features, so it is in Intel's interest to muddy the waters - You can have your ARM tablet, but no GPO for you!
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:14 PM on February 29, 2012
Smartphones Have Led, and Desktops Will Follow
“The PC is less relevant, and that means so is Windows,” said Michael Gartenberg, an industry analyst with Gartner. “Microsoft has to think about what that means for their future.”
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:31 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
“The PC is less relevant, and that means so is Windows,” said Michael Gartenberg, an industry analyst with Gartner. “Microsoft has to think about what that means for their future.”
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:31 PM on February 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Feature parity on the OS would make processor choice boil down to competitive features, so it is in Intel's interest to muddy the waters - You can have your ARM tablet, but no GPO for you!
I guess that makes sense, and I'll defer to you, since I don't know enough about the different processor families except that they are different. I can see what Microsoft are trying to do - unify their OS across all their devices. Everyone's doing the same thing - Apple are moving towards merging iOS and OSX, Ubuntu Linux's latest desktop is very tablet-like. I don't particularly like it, because I use a computer for computing, not just for "sharing photos of my kitten with my Live Messenger buddies" or whatever the Windows 8 interface is geared towards. But I can see why this unification is taking place - as long as I can still drill down to a decent, usable desktop that isn't all 40-point fonts and gaudy coloured shapes.
One would hope, however, that this unification would bring advantages both ways - like bringing proper security, networking, multi-user features to mobile devices. Surely it's a no-brainer that given the reluctance (and difficulty) in getting iOS devices on corporate networks, Microsoft should have leveraged its strength in this area and make domain membership etc. available on tablets through the unified Windows 8.
My feeling towards Windows 8, so far, are pretty low. I can't actually try it on native hardware, because when I tried to install the DVD to overwrite a Ubuntu system I have sitting around, I got some "MIssing BOOTMGR" error. Ubuntu installs to an empty partition from a DVD - why the hell wouldn't Windows?
I actually ordered a Macbook Air today. It will be my first Mac - I'm actually pretty ambivalent about OS choice, since up until now my day-to-day usage has been 50% Windows, 50% Linux, and an iPhone in my pocket. But Ubuntu's adopted the "Unity" interface which makes what used to be simple computing tasks ugly and slow, Windows is now heading in the same direction (not to mention that every Windows ultrabook I tried out yesterday was stuffed to the brim with bloatware). Mac OSX is now the only "desktop" operating system that still provides something resembling a traditional desktop. So I really pray they now don't go down the iOS path completely.
posted by Jimbob at 12:04 AM on March 1, 2012
I guess that makes sense, and I'll defer to you, since I don't know enough about the different processor families except that they are different. I can see what Microsoft are trying to do - unify their OS across all their devices. Everyone's doing the same thing - Apple are moving towards merging iOS and OSX, Ubuntu Linux's latest desktop is very tablet-like. I don't particularly like it, because I use a computer for computing, not just for "sharing photos of my kitten with my Live Messenger buddies" or whatever the Windows 8 interface is geared towards. But I can see why this unification is taking place - as long as I can still drill down to a decent, usable desktop that isn't all 40-point fonts and gaudy coloured shapes.
One would hope, however, that this unification would bring advantages both ways - like bringing proper security, networking, multi-user features to mobile devices. Surely it's a no-brainer that given the reluctance (and difficulty) in getting iOS devices on corporate networks, Microsoft should have leveraged its strength in this area and make domain membership etc. available on tablets through the unified Windows 8.
My feeling towards Windows 8, so far, are pretty low. I can't actually try it on native hardware, because when I tried to install the DVD to overwrite a Ubuntu system I have sitting around, I got some "MIssing BOOTMGR" error. Ubuntu installs to an empty partition from a DVD - why the hell wouldn't Windows?
I actually ordered a Macbook Air today. It will be my first Mac - I'm actually pretty ambivalent about OS choice, since up until now my day-to-day usage has been 50% Windows, 50% Linux, and an iPhone in my pocket. But Ubuntu's adopted the "Unity" interface which makes what used to be simple computing tasks ugly and slow, Windows is now heading in the same direction (not to mention that every Windows ultrabook I tried out yesterday was stuffed to the brim with bloatware). Mac OSX is now the only "desktop" operating system that still provides something resembling a traditional desktop. So I really pray they now don't go down the iOS path completely.
posted by Jimbob at 12:04 AM on March 1, 2012
"It's the future so get used to it"
I am just repeating myself from an earlier thread here, but FFS I will never want my viewport into my computer to also be the input device. Touching your screen makes it DIRTY.
"Hey, don't touch the screen!" Am I the only one who says this? I think not.
So yeah, I do not understand this idea that the desktop people are all going to happily move into this completely new and shitty paradigm. Seems like a good way to drive away all your old customers.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:16 AM on March 1, 2012 [2 favorites]
I am just repeating myself from an earlier thread here, but FFS I will never want my viewport into my computer to also be the input device. Touching your screen makes it DIRTY.
"Hey, don't touch the screen!" Am I the only one who says this? I think not.
So yeah, I do not understand this idea that the desktop people are all going to happily move into this completely new and shitty paradigm. Seems like a good way to drive away all your old customers.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:16 AM on March 1, 2012 [2 favorites]
Touching your screen makes it DIRTY.
Anti-grease coatings help remarkably with this. One wipe and my iPhone is pristine again.
posted by fightorflight at 4:38 AM on March 1, 2012
Anti-grease coatings help remarkably with this. One wipe and my iPhone is pristine again.
posted by fightorflight at 4:38 AM on March 1, 2012
Well, after playing with it a little, I see Microsoft is following a rather unusual recipe for success:
1. Change everything.
2. Instantly make 17 years of UI training worthless.
3. Hide basic functionality, like, say, turning the computer off.
4. Be careful not to include any kind of prominent Help button (or, as far as I can determine after a couple of minutes of searching, any help whatsoever.) And definitely, definitely don't include any kind of prominent tutorial to show users what's changed.
5. Make sure that the old ways to search for things no longer work, and hide any new method carefully.
It's brilliant. I'm sure it will be very popular in its target demographic. As long as you just want to push the shiny buttons, it appears ideally suited. It does, however, strike me that making an OS for people with frontal lobotomies may be a bit too small a niche.
I used to be down on Microsoft for the Fisher-Price look. Now they've got the Fisher-Price feel.
As far as I can tell, Windows 8 is a gigantic insult. Microsoft thinks you're a fucking idiot, and can't be trusted with a computer. It's rubber safety scissors, a pat on the head, and a cookie, when what you wanted was a tool.
That's a sin OS X has never really committed; they make things easy, but still powerful. It has always remained a highly useful tool, and I've never felt insulted by using it.
With Windows 8, I most emphatically do.
posted by Malor at 7:26 AM on March 1, 2012 [3 favorites]
1. Change everything.
2. Instantly make 17 years of UI training worthless.
3. Hide basic functionality, like, say, turning the computer off.
4. Be careful not to include any kind of prominent Help button (or, as far as I can determine after a couple of minutes of searching, any help whatsoever.) And definitely, definitely don't include any kind of prominent tutorial to show users what's changed.
5. Make sure that the old ways to search for things no longer work, and hide any new method carefully.
It's brilliant. I'm sure it will be very popular in its target demographic. As long as you just want to push the shiny buttons, it appears ideally suited. It does, however, strike me that making an OS for people with frontal lobotomies may be a bit too small a niche.
I used to be down on Microsoft for the Fisher-Price look. Now they've got the Fisher-Price feel.
As far as I can tell, Windows 8 is a gigantic insult. Microsoft thinks you're a fucking idiot, and can't be trusted with a computer. It's rubber safety scissors, a pat on the head, and a cookie, when what you wanted was a tool.
That's a sin OS X has never really committed; they make things easy, but still powerful. It has always remained a highly useful tool, and I've never felt insulted by using it.
With Windows 8, I most emphatically do.
posted by Malor at 7:26 AM on March 1, 2012 [3 favorites]
Oh, I finally figured out how to shut off the VM -- you have to float your mouse to the lower-right corner (each corner does something different), and then go to Settings, and then Power, and only there can you find a button to turn the bloody computer off.
Yeah, that's intuitive.
Customers are weird, and products succeed all the time in spite of nerd predictions to the contrary (like "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame." from Slashdot, about the iPod, one of the most successful products ever.) So prophecies of failure from geeks like me are something to ignore as often as not.
But, for what it's worth, I think there's a very good chance that this will be the most epic disaster in Microsoft's history, even more of a debacle than Vista. I can't imagine lobotomizing my PC with this piece of shit. I thought I hated what the Ubuntu guys were doing with desktops, but wow, this makes them look brilliant.
Part of my poor reaction may be because I'm running it in a VM, so the graphics aren't as fast as they would be on real hardware. But even if it were glossy and smooth and gorgeous, as opposed to the kinda choppy results I get with VMWare, I still couldn't DO anything with the computer. All my existing workflows and processes and just ways of getting around the system are gone. They've completely removed the freaking Start Menu, for God's sake. They could do that in, say, two or three revisions, but they can't just do that all at once and expect people to cope. That's just insane.
Microsoft has always been the bastion of backward compatibility, yet in just one generation of the product, they are completely throwing out their UI, only keeping the absolute bare bones of the old stuff, just enough to let old programs run, and that's it. I just don't see how the market is going to accept this... it's too much change, too quickly, and from what I can see, most of the changes are once again for Microsoft's benefit, not mine.
I mean, FRONT AND CENTER on the new desktop are at least a couple of ways of giving Microsoft money -- but NO HELP BUTTON.
That should tell you all you need to know about their priorities. Only a monopoly could pull this kind of shit and expect to survive.
posted by Malor at 7:39 AM on March 1, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that's intuitive.
Customers are weird, and products succeed all the time in spite of nerd predictions to the contrary (like "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame." from Slashdot, about the iPod, one of the most successful products ever.) So prophecies of failure from geeks like me are something to ignore as often as not.
But, for what it's worth, I think there's a very good chance that this will be the most epic disaster in Microsoft's history, even more of a debacle than Vista. I can't imagine lobotomizing my PC with this piece of shit. I thought I hated what the Ubuntu guys were doing with desktops, but wow, this makes them look brilliant.
Part of my poor reaction may be because I'm running it in a VM, so the graphics aren't as fast as they would be on real hardware. But even if it were glossy and smooth and gorgeous, as opposed to the kinda choppy results I get with VMWare, I still couldn't DO anything with the computer. All my existing workflows and processes and just ways of getting around the system are gone. They've completely removed the freaking Start Menu, for God's sake. They could do that in, say, two or three revisions, but they can't just do that all at once and expect people to cope. That's just insane.
Microsoft has always been the bastion of backward compatibility, yet in just one generation of the product, they are completely throwing out their UI, only keeping the absolute bare bones of the old stuff, just enough to let old programs run, and that's it. I just don't see how the market is going to accept this... it's too much change, too quickly, and from what I can see, most of the changes are once again for Microsoft's benefit, not mine.
I mean, FRONT AND CENTER on the new desktop are at least a couple of ways of giving Microsoft money -- but NO HELP BUTTON.
That should tell you all you need to know about their priorities. Only a monopoly could pull this kind of shit and expect to survive.
posted by Malor at 7:39 AM on March 1, 2012 [2 favorites]
1. Change everything.
2. Instantly make 17 years of UI training worthless.
3. Hide basic functionality, like, say, turning the computer off.
4. Be careful not to include any kind of prominent Help button (or, as far as I can determine after a couple of minutes of searching, any help whatsoever.) And definitely, definitely don't include any kind of prominent tutorial to show users what's changed.
5. Make sure that the old ways to search for things no longer work, and hide any new method carefully.
Interestingly, this is more-or-less exactly what Apple did with the iPhone. Not having any help, in particular, is often a good thing. It forces the interface to explain itself, not spend 10 minutes "connecting to Microsoft Online" looking for a badly written document to explain it for you.
posted by fightorflight at 7:52 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
2. Instantly make 17 years of UI training worthless.
3. Hide basic functionality, like, say, turning the computer off.
4. Be careful not to include any kind of prominent Help button (or, as far as I can determine after a couple of minutes of searching, any help whatsoever.) And definitely, definitely don't include any kind of prominent tutorial to show users what's changed.
5. Make sure that the old ways to search for things no longer work, and hide any new method carefully.
Interestingly, this is more-or-less exactly what Apple did with the iPhone. Not having any help, in particular, is often a good thing. It forces the interface to explain itself, not spend 10 minutes "connecting to Microsoft Online" looking for a badly written document to explain it for you.
posted by fightorflight at 7:52 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
Well, it's doing a terrible job of it. And iPhones hardly did anything when they shipped, so there wasn't much to learn anyway.
Further, iPhones were tabula rasa; they didn't have ten million existing applications to run.
posted by Malor at 8:22 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
Further, iPhones were tabula rasa; they didn't have ten million existing applications to run.
posted by Malor at 8:22 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
Interestingly, this is more-or-less exactly what Apple did with the iPhone.
A phone is a much simpler device than a computer - you can figure out the mission-critical functions in a couple of minutes and go from there. Not to mention that the user base for Windows is seriously larger than that for iphones, and includes a sizeable chunk of people who actually need to get stuff done by yesterday, and don't have the time to fuck around with things that already work.
posted by Dr Dracator at 8:47 AM on March 1, 2012
A phone is a much simpler device than a computer - you can figure out the mission-critical functions in a couple of minutes and go from there. Not to mention that the user base for Windows is seriously larger than that for iphones, and includes a sizeable chunk of people who actually need to get stuff done by yesterday, and don't have the time to fuck around with things that already work.
posted by Dr Dracator at 8:47 AM on March 1, 2012
WTF would you run windows 8 instead of iOS on a iPad? Spend a third the money on a similar form factor tablet designed to run W8.
As far as I know, the iPad is extremely competitive on price. I'm not sure we'll see tablet running W8 for half the cost, let alone a third.
posted by OmieWise at 8:58 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
As far as I know, the iPad is extremely competitive on price. I'm not sure we'll see tablet running W8 for half the cost, let alone a third.
posted by OmieWise at 8:58 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wonder how easily you'll be able to run anything but Microsoft products on that interface. I don't trust them to do a good job with that, personally (Outlook is atrocious for example, why should I believe they can do a better job in this version?)
So mail for example. I turn it on, I sign in, I get Metro Mail, great. On a tablet, sure, I can use that I guess, same as I use the Mail app on my iPad. I can live with the built-in one on a mobile platform. But what if I hate it and don't want that as my mail client on my desktop? Then I have to have two mail programs installed I guess, right? Why? Waste of space and time. I don't use Apple's desktop Mail app. I refuse to use anything from Microsoft on the desktop.
What about the browser? Are they going to leave it open for plug-and-play kind of compatibility, so that people who prefer, say, Chrome or Opera or Firefox or Safari can add those in as Metro apps too? Last time they made it hard to pick another browser they got sued.
I like my Mac. I like my iPhone, I like my iPad. They are three different things and serve three different purposes. I don't need the former pretending it's the latter, and the iOS interface would be painful and pointless on a desktop.
Only time will tell if this is a good idea or not. But it isn't making me upset I dumped Windows and went all Apple years ago.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:23 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
So mail for example. I turn it on, I sign in, I get Metro Mail, great. On a tablet, sure, I can use that I guess, same as I use the Mail app on my iPad. I can live with the built-in one on a mobile platform. But what if I hate it and don't want that as my mail client on my desktop? Then I have to have two mail programs installed I guess, right? Why? Waste of space and time. I don't use Apple's desktop Mail app. I refuse to use anything from Microsoft on the desktop.
What about the browser? Are they going to leave it open for plug-and-play kind of compatibility, so that people who prefer, say, Chrome or Opera or Firefox or Safari can add those in as Metro apps too? Last time they made it hard to pick another browser they got sued.
I like my Mac. I like my iPhone, I like my iPad. They are three different things and serve three different purposes. I don't need the former pretending it's the latter, and the iOS interface would be painful and pointless on a desktop.
Only time will tell if this is a good idea or not. But it isn't making me upset I dumped Windows and went all Apple years ago.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:23 AM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
What about the browser? Are they going to leave it open for plug-and-play kind of compatibility, so that people who prefer, say, Chrome or Opera or Firefox or Safari can add those in as Metro apps too? Last time they made it hard to pick another browser they got sued.
Mozilla building Metro version of Firefox for Windows 8
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on March 1, 2012
Mozilla building Metro version of Firefox for Windows 8
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on March 1, 2012
After installing win8 on virtualbox and playing around, I predict MS will eventually come back to earth and allow users to re-enable the start menu in system settings. The metro start screen might be great for tablets, but with a normal desktop computer it gets infuriating real fast.
posted by mullingitover at 11:46 AM on March 1, 2012
posted by mullingitover at 11:46 AM on March 1, 2012
I'm kind of wondering how all this metro-ness works out on multi-monitor setups.
posted by Artw at 11:47 AM on March 1, 2012
posted by Artw at 11:47 AM on March 1, 2012
Looks like you can already get a usable start menu back in win8 if you're willing to do some regedit hacking.
posted by mullingitover at 12:04 PM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by mullingitover at 12:04 PM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
One would think this could be a historical moment for Microsoft, being essentially forced by the market to reengineer their OS, that they would finally get rid of the damn Registry.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:50 PM on March 1, 2012
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:50 PM on March 1, 2012
Eh, it's probably more window dressing than reengineering.
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:21 PM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:21 PM on March 1, 2012 [1 favorite]
As far as I can tell, Windows 8 is a gigantic insult. Microsoft thinks you're a fucking idiot, and can't be trusted with a computer. It's rubber safety scissors, a pat on the head, and a cookie, when what you wanted was a tool.
This, a thousand times. We are at the point now surely where pretty much everyone who's ever going to use a computer knows how to use a computer? Surely it's time to start to reign in the constant drive towards "user friendliness"? Interfaces with (to use Windows terms) task bars and menu bars and start menus and system trays and icons and windows are what people have used for the last 25 years, and they are what people are productive in. There's no-one left out there, surely, saying "I would use a computer if only it looks like Metro or Unity!"
Sure, a different interface paradigm for small-screen / touch-screen devices makes sense. But on the desktop it is pointless, and surely it's not something the consumer actually wants. As others have pointed out, these sorts of interfaces really restrict the ability to multitask - to have a calculator, a document and a webpage open and visible all at the same time. I remember when multitasking was the hot shit in computing - now Microsoft is treating it like it's just too damn complicated for their poor, idiotic consumers.
I'll try to stop being ranty, I promise. I'm just increasingly amazed that something more ridiculous than Ubuntu's Unity has been created...
posted by Jimbob at 2:20 PM on March 1, 2012 [3 favorites]
This, a thousand times. We are at the point now surely where pretty much everyone who's ever going to use a computer knows how to use a computer? Surely it's time to start to reign in the constant drive towards "user friendliness"? Interfaces with (to use Windows terms) task bars and menu bars and start menus and system trays and icons and windows are what people have used for the last 25 years, and they are what people are productive in. There's no-one left out there, surely, saying "I would use a computer if only it looks like Metro or Unity!"
Sure, a different interface paradigm for small-screen / touch-screen devices makes sense. But on the desktop it is pointless, and surely it's not something the consumer actually wants. As others have pointed out, these sorts of interfaces really restrict the ability to multitask - to have a calculator, a document and a webpage open and visible all at the same time. I remember when multitasking was the hot shit in computing - now Microsoft is treating it like it's just too damn complicated for their poor, idiotic consumers.
I'll try to stop being ranty, I promise. I'm just increasingly amazed that something more ridiculous than Ubuntu's Unity has been created...
posted by Jimbob at 2:20 PM on March 1, 2012 [3 favorites]
Unity actually isn't that bad at this point. I really kind of like it.
posted by koeselitz at 2:39 PM on March 1, 2012
posted by koeselitz at 2:39 PM on March 1, 2012
As a data point I'd submit this: My oldest kid (5) pretty much instantly knows the basics of any touchscreen UI without any level of training whatsoever. It's entirely possible that she will never in her life use any mouse based UI. For her younger sister I'd say it's even more likely.
posted by Artw at 2:41 PM on March 1, 2012
posted by Artw at 2:41 PM on March 1, 2012
Where I work, actually so far, no where I've worked runs anything but Windows XP. Granted, these are non-profit and government offices. A lot of people I know still use Windows XP. My university only switched to Windows 7 this year. I don't think Microsoft is as relevant as they think they are.
posted by fuq at 2:56 PM on March 1, 2012
posted by fuq at 2:56 PM on March 1, 2012
My oldest kid (5) pretty much instantly knows the basics of any touchscreen UI without any level of training whatsoever. It's entirely possible that she will never in her life use any mouse based UI.
My kid (5.5) is great with touchscreen UIs too. He's also figured out Windows Vista and Ubuntu and the Wii, his only difficulty is with reading words in the menus that he doesn't know. Point-and-click interfaces aren't actually difficult - they were created because they're intuitive, too!
posted by Jimbob at 3:02 PM on March 1, 2012
My kid (5.5) is great with touchscreen UIs too. He's also figured out Windows Vista and Ubuntu and the Wii, his only difficulty is with reading words in the menus that he doesn't know. Point-and-click interfaces aren't actually difficult - they were created because they're intuitive, too!
posted by Jimbob at 3:02 PM on March 1, 2012
fightorflight writes "Anti-grease coatings help remarkably with this. One wipe and my iPhone is pristine again."
And then you touch your screen and it's dirty again. Seriously. I can't stand even a a single finger print/smudge on my screens; drives me batty.
kjs3 writes "WTF would you run windows 8 instead of iOS on a iPad? Spend a third the money on a similar form factor tablet designed to run W8."
I hate it but the iPod jack is very well supported (EG: plug in car stereos). I'd bet once you've got windows running on your ipad you could control it with your car stereo. Something I'm thinking no W8 tablets are going to be able to do.
posted by Mitheral at 6:49 PM on March 1, 2012
And then you touch your screen and it's dirty again. Seriously. I can't stand even a a single finger print/smudge on my screens; drives me batty.
kjs3 writes "WTF would you run windows 8 instead of iOS on a iPad? Spend a third the money on a similar form factor tablet designed to run W8."
I hate it but the iPod jack is very well supported (EG: plug in car stereos). I'd bet once you've got windows running on your ipad you could control it with your car stereo. Something I'm thinking no W8 tablets are going to be able to do.
posted by Mitheral at 6:49 PM on March 1, 2012
As a data point I'd submit this: My oldest kid (5) pretty much instantly knows the basics of any touchscreen UI without any level of training whatsoever.
I humbly suggest five-year-olds are maybe not the best target audience for designing a UI one needs to actually do stuff with.
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:56 AM on March 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
I humbly suggest five-year-olds are maybe not the best target audience for designing a UI one needs to actually do stuff with.
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:56 AM on March 2, 2012 [3 favorites]
Installed it last night on VirtualBox and am not getting it. It just seems like they grafted the Windows Phone interface on top of Windows 7 and took the start button away. It took me ten minutes on the desktop to figure out that the Windows button took me back to the overlay menu thing since there doesn't seem to be a soft button for it. The only way to get to stuff like the Control Panel seems to be through the File Explorer and I have no idea how to get to stuff like Notepad or the command shell.
Since XP is 11 years old now and 1/2 the world still uses it, I figure that I have another nine years to stick with 7 if this is what 8 is going to be. Yuck.
posted by octothorpe at 4:17 AM on March 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Since XP is 11 years old now and 1/2 the world still uses it, I figure that I have another nine years to stick with 7 if this is what 8 is going to be. Yuck.
posted by octothorpe at 4:17 AM on March 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
You can configure the "full" keyboard as an option in the Metro preferences app, then use the soft keyboard to do a Windows+R to get a Run dialog, then you can run Notepad or cmd.exe or whatnot.
Well that sounds pretty straightforward!
posted by Meatbomb at 6:29 AM on March 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
Well that sounds pretty straightforward!
posted by Meatbomb at 6:29 AM on March 2, 2012 [2 favorites]
'cause that's easier than a menu list of applications?
posted by octothorpe at 6:34 AM on March 2, 2012
posted by octothorpe at 6:34 AM on March 2, 2012
I refuse to believe in the existance of the windows key. Why the heck would anyone intentionally insert a key in the blank space to either side of the space bar? That's just asking for people to hit it accidently and constantly.
posted by Mitheral at 8:16 AM on March 2, 2012
posted by Mitheral at 8:16 AM on March 2, 2012
What is this windows key that you speak of? Do you mean that funny symbol on the Super key?
posted by Dr Dracator at 3:40 PM on March 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr Dracator at 3:40 PM on March 2, 2012 [1 favorite]
Q&A: Ray Ozzie on startups, Microsoft, and what he’s dreaming up next
posted by Artw at 5:01 PM on March 8, 2012
posted by Artw at 5:01 PM on March 8, 2012
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posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:51 AM on February 29, 2012