He says it like he's found a lost kitten.
May 3, 2012 5:29 PM Subscribe
The superhero origin story of Joss Whedon goes like this: A GQ interview with Joss Whedon.
Have you heard of Twilight? Are you acquainted with the undead? How about werewolves? Vampires? Angsty adolescent superheroes? This is our culture right now, and it's no exaggeration to say that it all began with one man: Joss Whedon
Ouch.
posted by Artw at 5:48 PM on May 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
Ouch.
posted by Artw at 5:48 PM on May 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
That didn't so much read like an interview.
posted by waxbanks at 5:58 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by waxbanks at 5:58 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
Fuck this is badly written. Imagine trying to write this this not actually containing a physical turd in your arsehole.
"Buffy gets made in 1992 by director Fran Rubel Kuzui, with Kristy Swanson as Buffy. It isn't terrible, but it plays way campier than Whedon wanted it to be. He'd imagined it as a pop feminist allegory about a young woman discovering her own strength; it ends up just being about a cheerleader fighting vampires"
posted by howfar at 5:59 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Buffy gets made in 1992 by director Fran Rubel Kuzui, with Kristy Swanson as Buffy. It isn't terrible, but it plays way campier than Whedon wanted it to be. He'd imagined it as a pop feminist allegory about a young woman discovering her own strength; it ends up just being about a cheerleader fighting vampires"
posted by howfar at 5:59 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've read the article now, but must admit I almost didn't after this bit:
"I ask him if there's some validation to getting The Avengers, at long last - if he felt like his early work had opened up a door that, until now, he himself never got to walk through.
"'That's a really beautiful thing to say,' he says, and pauses for a second, stares at his lap, processing..."
Like the fucking reporter just threw something out there, something real casual and off-the-cuff, that left one of the best screenwriters in the business lost for words. Ugh.
posted by tumid dahlia at 6:00 PM on May 3, 2012 [9 favorites]
"I ask him if there's some validation to getting The Avengers, at long last - if he felt like his early work had opened up a door that, until now, he himself never got to walk through.
"'That's a really beautiful thing to say,' he says, and pauses for a second, stares at his lap, processing..."
Like the fucking reporter just threw something out there, something real casual and off-the-cuff, that left one of the best screenwriters in the business lost for words. Ugh.
posted by tumid dahlia at 6:00 PM on May 3, 2012 [9 favorites]
Article is worth the price of admission for that batman anecdote. That was really heartbreaking.
posted by spanishbombs at 6:01 PM on May 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by spanishbombs at 6:01 PM on May 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
That said, this is probably the best account I've read of Whedon's place in the popcult firmament.
posted by waxbanks at 6:03 PM on May 3, 2012
posted by waxbanks at 6:03 PM on May 3, 2012
I'll note that Whedon's Batman pitch nicely solves the Bats-is-preternaturally-skilled-at-everything problem by allowing him to spend his entire adolescence preparing to be a vigilante. Dunno if that's 'canon,' as the fucking hopeless dweebs (ahem) say, but anyway.
posted by waxbanks at 6:07 PM on May 3, 2012
posted by waxbanks at 6:07 PM on May 3, 2012
I knew he's pitched a Batman movie before, but I'd never heard the details. Probably the most interesting bit in the whole article.
posted by kmz at 6:09 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by kmz at 6:09 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
Given the enormity of The Avengers and its glowing reviews so far, I hope this is the end of the beginning of Whedon's career.
posted by mek at 6:20 PM on May 3, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by mek at 6:20 PM on May 3, 2012 [6 favorites]
Yes, I could really feel Whedon's passion in pitching that Batman moment. I hope someday he gets to make that film, too.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:19 PM on May 3, 2012
posted by onlyconnect at 7:19 PM on May 3, 2012
Some good points in this article, but AUGH. Gonzo-journalism is obnoxious even when it's done well, and there's just no reason for it here? (Unless it's to pad out a short interview, heh.) Joss Whedon has been interviewed many times, it's not a particularly bold or daring move to interview him again.
I like that where-are-they-now chart of Buffy writers, though, and that the reporter talks about a "narrative" of Joss Whedon never making good. Joss Whedon's shows have always had supporters, but his fanbase is mostly women, so it doesn't count as "mainstream" success. Him being put in charge of a mainstream superhero action movie is kind of a coup.
posted by subdee at 7:31 PM on May 3, 2012
I like that where-are-they-now chart of Buffy writers, though, and that the reporter talks about a "narrative" of Joss Whedon never making good. Joss Whedon's shows have always had supporters, but his fanbase is mostly women, so it doesn't count as "mainstream" success. Him being put in charge of a mainstream superhero action movie is kind of a coup.
posted by subdee at 7:31 PM on May 3, 2012
>"'That's a really beautiful thing to say,' he says, and pauses for a second, stares at his lap, processing..."
Reading that, I found myself speculating that Whedon felt embarrassed for the guy.
posted by darth_tedious at 7:35 PM on May 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
Reading that, I found myself speculating that Whedon felt embarrassed for the guy.
posted by darth_tedious at 7:35 PM on May 3, 2012 [5 favorites]
Wait, does the introduction blame the existence of Twilight on Joss?
posted by crossoverman at 7:50 PM on May 3, 2012
posted by crossoverman at 7:50 PM on May 3, 2012
Yes, I could really feel Whedon's passion in pitching that Batman moment. I hope someday he gets to make that film, too.
Once Nolan's trilogy is done, I'm sure WB will reboot the franchise. And I'd love Whedon to make a Batman film - but I totally don't want another origin story film.
posted by crossoverman at 7:59 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
Once Nolan's trilogy is done, I'm sure WB will reboot the franchise. And I'd love Whedon to make a Batman film - but I totally don't want another origin story film.
posted by crossoverman at 7:59 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
The author also appears to be unaware of the existence of Bram Stoker.
posted by Artw at 8:00 PM on May 3, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:00 PM on May 3, 2012 [7 favorites]
I liked this part:
Seeing a TV show acknowledge the pop culture it was so clearly steeped in—even the simple fact that Buffy and her vampire-slaying cohorts referred to themselves as the "Scooby Gang"—felt revolutionary, says Lost co-creator Damon Lindelof.
As a counterexample, Lindelof points out that no one on The Walking Dead ever says the word "zombie" or brings up George Romero's movies. "I almost feel that's more of a stretch from reality than what Joss was doing. The idea of saying 'Let's have that conversation [in the work itself], let's acknowledge and celebrate the fact that we're creating something new out of old stuff,' was incredibly liberating, I think, for filmmakers of our generation."
I don't know what some folks are moaning about here; it's a smart article, with provocative opinions and interesting tidbits about the career of a guy who's obviously going to be considered important by future students of pop culture. And reading about how Whedon took over the Avengers script with "I'm going to write this my way" made me laugh, because (having seen a free 3D baby IMAX preview last week, conveniently avoiding any moral dilemmas over giving money to a company that fucked over Jack Kirby and wrote SOPA) the movie fucking rocks in a way that the overblown, overserious, overpraised Nolan Batman stuff never could seem to manage. Whedon gets that ridiculously fun Silver Age Marvel vibe down *perfectly*.
posted by mediareport at 8:17 PM on May 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
Seeing a TV show acknowledge the pop culture it was so clearly steeped in—even the simple fact that Buffy and her vampire-slaying cohorts referred to themselves as the "Scooby Gang"—felt revolutionary, says Lost co-creator Damon Lindelof.
As a counterexample, Lindelof points out that no one on The Walking Dead ever says the word "zombie" or brings up George Romero's movies. "I almost feel that's more of a stretch from reality than what Joss was doing. The idea of saying 'Let's have that conversation [in the work itself], let's acknowledge and celebrate the fact that we're creating something new out of old stuff,' was incredibly liberating, I think, for filmmakers of our generation."
I don't know what some folks are moaning about here; it's a smart article, with provocative opinions and interesting tidbits about the career of a guy who's obviously going to be considered important by future students of pop culture. And reading about how Whedon took over the Avengers script with "I'm going to write this my way" made me laugh, because (having seen a free 3D baby IMAX preview last week, conveniently avoiding any moral dilemmas over giving money to a company that fucked over Jack Kirby and wrote SOPA) the movie fucking rocks in a way that the overblown, overserious, overpraised Nolan Batman stuff never could seem to manage. Whedon gets that ridiculously fun Silver Age Marvel vibe down *perfectly*.
posted by mediareport at 8:17 PM on May 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
Batman Learns To Be a Detective and It's Actually Pretty Dumb - a counter-opinion on the who Batman-learning-to-be-Batman-would-be-endlessly-interesting thing.
posted by Artw at 8:21 PM on May 3, 2012
posted by Artw at 8:21 PM on May 3, 2012
>I don't know what some folks are moaning about here; it's a smart article, with provocative opinions and interesting tidbits
It's been a day or two since I read the article, but I remember being a bit surprised at the degree of gushing that had made its way into the article, and past the editor's desk.
posted by darth_tedious at 8:22 PM on May 3, 2012
It's been a day or two since I read the article, but I remember being a bit surprised at the degree of gushing that had made its way into the article, and past the editor's desk.
posted by darth_tedious at 8:22 PM on May 3, 2012
Go ahead and point out some examples of what you see as beyond-the-pale gushing.
posted by mediareport at 8:23 PM on May 3, 2012
posted by mediareport at 8:23 PM on May 3, 2012
Oh crap is it now cool to hate Whedon rather than love him? Re-calibrating hipster module, brb.
posted by mek at 8:26 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by mek at 8:26 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
Oh crap is it now cool to hate Whedon rather than love him? Re-calibrating hipster module, brb.
His X-Men was masisvely over-rated! Dollhouse was a bad idea from the start regardless of studio intervention! I never bothered watching Angel because I always thought that character was dull. TAKE THAT!
posted by Artw at 8:28 PM on May 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
His X-Men was masisvely over-rated! Dollhouse was a bad idea from the start regardless of studio intervention! I never bothered watching Angel because I always thought that character was dull. TAKE THAT!
posted by Artw at 8:28 PM on May 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
>Go ahead and point out some examples of what you see as beyond-the-pale gushing.
I made the assertion, so it's certainly a reasonable request... but I've already read the thing and don't, at the moment, feel like re-reading it.
Oh, on second thought:
>"I ask him if there's some validation to getting The Avengers, at long last - if he felt like his early work had opened up a door that, until now, he himself never got to walk through.
>"'That's a really beautiful thing to say,' he says, and pauses for a second, stares at his lap, processing..."
That, I believe, is book-signing talk; it's not standard (print) reporter talk.
posted by darth_tedious at 8:36 PM on May 3, 2012
I made the assertion, so it's certainly a reasonable request... but I've already read the thing and don't, at the moment, feel like re-reading it.
Oh, on second thought:
>"I ask him if there's some validation to getting The Avengers, at long last - if he felt like his early work had opened up a door that, until now, he himself never got to walk through.
>"'That's a really beautiful thing to say,' he says, and pauses for a second, stares at his lap, processing..."
That, I believe, is book-signing talk; it's not standard (print) reporter talk.
posted by darth_tedious at 8:36 PM on May 3, 2012
TAKE THAT!
His X-Men started out great and then, yes, devolved into dullness as they wandered around outer space, but picked up nicely at the end. Dollhouse was a bad show from the start, in part due to studio intervention. The first three seasons of Angel are very much worth watching if you liked Buffy in the slightest; at its best it almost matches the genius.
But let's be clear: Buffy is one of the top ten shows to ever air on American television (nearer to 10th than 1st, but still); it was clever, innovative, powerful and deeply satisfying. Firefly is a better science fiction show than any show other than your favorite science fiction show, period, and the sadly rushed but still amazingly taut and exciting Serenity is the best scifi film of the last 20 years. Dr. Horrible - tossed off on a lark, almost - is astoundingly fun and poignant and light-years better than any Hollywood comedy/musical/superhero story you can name.
*deflects sword easily*
Your move.
posted by mediareport at 8:47 PM on May 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
His X-Men started out great and then, yes, devolved into dullness as they wandered around outer space, but picked up nicely at the end. Dollhouse was a bad show from the start, in part due to studio intervention. The first three seasons of Angel are very much worth watching if you liked Buffy in the slightest; at its best it almost matches the genius.
But let's be clear: Buffy is one of the top ten shows to ever air on American television (nearer to 10th than 1st, but still); it was clever, innovative, powerful and deeply satisfying. Firefly is a better science fiction show than any show other than your favorite science fiction show, period, and the sadly rushed but still amazingly taut and exciting Serenity is the best scifi film of the last 20 years. Dr. Horrible - tossed off on a lark, almost - is astoundingly fun and poignant and light-years better than any Hollywood comedy/musical/superhero story you can name.
*deflects sword easily*
Your move.
posted by mediareport at 8:47 PM on May 3, 2012 [2 favorites]
So this film answers a question I've long wondered about, who's responsible for the truly AWFUL superhero movies.
In fact, there was a script, by veteran superhero-movie scribe Zak Penn, whose association with Marvel's movie-verse goes back to 2006; he'll share a "story by" credit with Whedon on The Avengers. I gently bring this up.
"There was a script," Whedon acknowledges. "There just wasn't a script I was going to film a word of." (Reached for comment, Penn says he was a little disappointed by Whedon's decision to take over. "We could have collaborated more, but that was not his choice. He wanted to do it his way, and I respect that. I mean, it's not like on the Hulk, where I got replaced by the lead actor," he says, referring to Edward Norton's infamous decision to install himself as lead screenwriter on that film. "That was an unusual one. This was more normal.")
ZAK PENN IMDB WRITING CREDITS:
X-Men: The Last Stand (written by)
2005 Elektra (written by)
2003 X2 (story)
1999 Inspector Gadget (screenplay)
1994 PCU (written by)
1993 Last Action Hero (story)
So considering that X3 is just awful, and Elektra is among one of the worst movies ever; Whedon and Norton aside, how is it possible that this has managed to hoodwink major studios, AND MARVEL into thinking that he knows comic books, movies, AND HOW TO WRITE A STORY??!
Because if there's any sort of devil's deal to be made, I want in.
posted by stratastar at 8:47 PM on May 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
In fact, there was a script, by veteran superhero-movie scribe Zak Penn, whose association with Marvel's movie-verse goes back to 2006; he'll share a "story by" credit with Whedon on The Avengers. I gently bring this up.
"There was a script," Whedon acknowledges. "There just wasn't a script I was going to film a word of." (Reached for comment, Penn says he was a little disappointed by Whedon's decision to take over. "We could have collaborated more, but that was not his choice. He wanted to do it his way, and I respect that. I mean, it's not like on the Hulk, where I got replaced by the lead actor," he says, referring to Edward Norton's infamous decision to install himself as lead screenwriter on that film. "That was an unusual one. This was more normal.")
ZAK PENN IMDB WRITING CREDITS:
X-Men: The Last Stand (written by)
2005 Elektra (written by)
2003 X2 (story)
1999 Inspector Gadget (screenplay)
1994 PCU (written by)
1993 Last Action Hero (story)
So considering that X3 is just awful, and Elektra is among one of the worst movies ever; Whedon and Norton aside, how is it possible that this has managed to hoodwink major studios, AND MARVEL into thinking that he knows comic books, movies, AND HOW TO WRITE A STORY??!
Because if there's any sort of devil's deal to be made, I want in.
posted by stratastar at 8:47 PM on May 3, 2012 [4 favorites]
Also just noticed that neither Vanity Fair nor the author did any research or fact checking.
posted by stratastar at 8:49 PM on May 3, 2012
posted by stratastar at 8:49 PM on May 3, 2012
>despite its "who the hell is this guy?" tone dictated by the fact that it's aimed at an audience of normals.
Actually, accounting for the audience partially excuses the tone of the GQ piece.
Obviously, if the film turns out to be great-- as all the critics seem to think it is-- that will be, well, great. I suppose my pessimism is just that the bright/shiny/colossal Silver Age sensibility would seem to be a challenging thing to get right, on screen. Moreover, although Serenity was a really well done film, Whedon has usually seemed to do best with things on a small and relatively intimate scale.
>But let's be clear...
I agree with all of the succeeding statements, actually.
posted by darth_tedious at 8:51 PM on May 3, 2012
Actually, accounting for the audience partially excuses the tone of the GQ piece.
Obviously, if the film turns out to be great-- as all the critics seem to think it is-- that will be, well, great. I suppose my pessimism is just that the bright/shiny/colossal Silver Age sensibility would seem to be a challenging thing to get right, on screen. Moreover, although Serenity was a really well done film, Whedon has usually seemed to do best with things on a small and relatively intimate scale.
>But let's be clear...
I agree with all of the succeeding statements, actually.
posted by darth_tedious at 8:51 PM on May 3, 2012
Then you're gonna love the Avengers movie.
posted by mediareport at 8:54 PM on May 3, 2012
posted by mediareport at 8:54 PM on May 3, 2012
.. the movie fucking rocks in a way that the overblown, overserious, overpraised Nolan Batman stuff never could seem to manage.
what I like about Nolan's world of Batman is that he paints a complete picture of how a troubled boy comes to be a vigilante in a bat suit. it could be a completely ridiculous concept, and indeed has been in some past, more nipple-y Batman movies. in Nolan's world though, everything has a reason and a purpose. it's a serious world bruce wayne lives in, and the story treats the audience as part of that world and comments on it in a social context.
I don't mind watching fun action comic book movies, but I think there's room for both. heck, Joss Whedon made me like a horror movie (cabin in the woods). and I hate horror movies.
I also liked both Iron Man movies. though for me they seemed more carried by Robert Downey Jrs charisma than anything else. but Nolan's movies had a ton of great roles, none as big as Christian Bale but also none that really disappeared into the background.
posted by ninjew at 8:58 PM on May 3, 2012
what I like about Nolan's world of Batman is that he paints a complete picture of how a troubled boy comes to be a vigilante in a bat suit. it could be a completely ridiculous concept, and indeed has been in some past, more nipple-y Batman movies. in Nolan's world though, everything has a reason and a purpose. it's a serious world bruce wayne lives in, and the story treats the audience as part of that world and comments on it in a social context.
I don't mind watching fun action comic book movies, but I think there's room for both. heck, Joss Whedon made me like a horror movie (cabin in the woods). and I hate horror movies.
I also liked both Iron Man movies. though for me they seemed more carried by Robert Downey Jrs charisma than anything else. but Nolan's movies had a ton of great roles, none as big as Christian Bale but also none that really disappeared into the background.
posted by ninjew at 8:58 PM on May 3, 2012
The first three seasons of Angel are very much worth watching
The fourth season of Angel certainly drags, to put it politely, but the payoff is so worth it. The climactic three-part finale is probably the best Angel plot of all, and the fifth season which follows its consequences is solid gold. IMHO Angel being robbed of its sixth season is the most tragic of all of Whedon's many early cancellations.
posted by mek at 9:25 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
The fourth season of Angel certainly drags, to put it politely, but the payoff is so worth it. The climactic three-part finale is probably the best Angel plot of all, and the fifth season which follows its consequences is solid gold. IMHO Angel being robbed of its sixth season is the most tragic of all of Whedon's many early cancellations.
posted by mek at 9:25 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
The first three seasons of Angel are very much worth watching if you liked Buffy in the slightest; at its best it almost matches the genius.
Huh. I thought it was a relatively uncontroversial (compared to, say, "rating the seasons of Buffy") opinion that Angel pretty much kept getting better as it went. I just finished (re)watching the whole series, and there were many parts where the grimness/"ok the character of angel is not actually all that great"ness would get old. But then at the end it kept getting more fun, especially with the reintroduction of Spike and therefore silliness, and we were both sad it was over.
Also I wanted to see more violence being done. I can't believe I ended up liking and feeling touched by that story arc.
posted by flaterik at 9:26 PM on May 3, 2012
Huh. I thought it was a relatively uncontroversial (compared to, say, "rating the seasons of Buffy") opinion that Angel pretty much kept getting better as it went. I just finished (re)watching the whole series, and there were many parts where the grimness/"ok the character of angel is not actually all that great"ness would get old. But then at the end it kept getting more fun, especially with the reintroduction of Spike and therefore silliness, and we were both sad it was over.
Also I wanted to see more violence being done. I can't believe I ended up liking and feeling touched by that story arc.
posted by flaterik at 9:26 PM on May 3, 2012
amazingly taut and exciting Serenity is the best scifi film of the last 20 years.
?! Where do I find this movie you are talking about that bears absolutely no resemblance to the one I got from the freeleech Firefly super pack?
Firefly the series was great though, and I guess I might get around to watching Buffy eventually.
posted by Chuckles at 11:11 PM on May 3, 2012
?! Where do I find this movie you are talking about that bears absolutely no resemblance to the one I got from the freeleech Firefly super pack?
Firefly the series was great though, and I guess I might get around to watching Buffy eventually.
posted by Chuckles at 11:11 PM on May 3, 2012
Regardless, I really hope Avengers does well at the boxoffice, because I want the soulless men in suits who run networks and studios to respect Whedon on a "he brings in dollars" level.
The film has already made 281 million dollars at the international box office. So, there's that.
Huh. I thought it was a relatively uncontroversial (compared to, say, "rating the seasons of Buffy") opinion that Angel pretty much kept getting better as it went.
Not for me. The show went off-the-rails mid-season three, almost completely lost me in season four, but did knock out a stellar fifth and final season.
posted by crossoverman at 11:11 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
The film has already made 281 million dollars at the international box office. So, there's that.
Huh. I thought it was a relatively uncontroversial (compared to, say, "rating the seasons of Buffy") opinion that Angel pretty much kept getting better as it went.
Not for me. The show went off-the-rails mid-season three, almost completely lost me in season four, but did knock out a stellar fifth and final season.
posted by crossoverman at 11:11 PM on May 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
I guess I should knuckle down and watch the fifth season. I gave up after about season 3. I had really hoped for a Raymond-Chandler-with-Vampires, but it just turned into weird angst with not enough humor.
I did like Lilah/Wesley though.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:31 PM on May 3, 2012
I did like Lilah/Wesley though.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:31 PM on May 3, 2012
The fifth season reallllllly helps with the humor bit.
Come on. Puppet episode. You know you want it.
posted by flaterik at 11:41 PM on May 3, 2012 [6 favorites]
Come on. Puppet episode. You know you want it.
posted by flaterik at 11:41 PM on May 3, 2012 [6 favorites]
I don't know what some folks are moaning about here
Pretty much nobody here reads actual magazines anymore. They've forgotten that they have house styles.
and the sadly rushed but still amazingly taut and exciting Serenity is the best scifi film of the last 20 years.
It has its moments, but as much as I love the show, the movie felt very patchwork. It somehow manages to wrap up all the loose ends of the series in a way that eliminates the mystery and enjoyment of rewatching. It also illustrates the weakness of the Whedon approach -- too-precious character notes, too-self-aware dialog, and in many scenes a lack of sufficient tension. And yes, I speak as someone who loves the show.
posted by dhartung at 11:51 PM on May 3, 2012
Pretty much nobody here reads actual magazines anymore. They've forgotten that they have house styles.
and the sadly rushed but still amazingly taut and exciting Serenity is the best scifi film of the last 20 years.
It has its moments, but as much as I love the show, the movie felt very patchwork. It somehow manages to wrap up all the loose ends of the series in a way that eliminates the mystery and enjoyment of rewatching. It also illustrates the weakness of the Whedon approach -- too-precious character notes, too-self-aware dialog, and in many scenes a lack of sufficient tension. And yes, I speak as someone who loves the show.
posted by dhartung at 11:51 PM on May 3, 2012
I did like Lilah/Wesley though.
Um. I can't spoil you but... if you like Wesley, you really, really need to watch season five.
posted by mek at 12:20 AM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Um. I can't spoil you but... if you like Wesley, you really, really need to watch season five.
posted by mek at 12:20 AM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
So considering that X3 is just awful, and Elektra is among one of the worst movies ever; Whedon and Norton aside, how is it possible that this has managed to hoodwink major studios, AND MARVEL into thinking that he knows comic books, movies, AND HOW TO WRITE A STORY??!
I'm guessing he learned it from David "Kickboxer 2, The Crow 2, The Nick Fury TV movie, Blade I - III, and Ghost Rider 2" Goyer.
To be fair, he also did Dark City, which was good, but I'd wager money Nolan has been minimizing his influence on the second and third Batman scripts, after the actually-kind-of-dumb first movie. "Fear ... is a thing that drives me. But I must overcome it ... so that it can drive me. Or something. Like I said. And did I mention ... fear?"
I cannot wait for the gibbering pile of terribad the Zach Snyder-directed, David Goyer-written Superman movie is going to be.
posted by Amanojaku at 1:55 AM on May 4, 2012
I'm guessing he learned it from David "Kickboxer 2, The Crow 2, The Nick Fury TV movie, Blade I - III, and Ghost Rider 2" Goyer.
To be fair, he also did Dark City, which was good, but I'd wager money Nolan has been minimizing his influence on the second and third Batman scripts, after the actually-kind-of-dumb first movie. "Fear ... is a thing that drives me. But I must overcome it ... so that it can drive me. Or something. Like I said. And did I mention ... fear?"
I cannot wait for the gibbering pile of terribad the Zach Snyder-directed, David Goyer-written Superman movie is going to be.
posted by Amanojaku at 1:55 AM on May 4, 2012
Can anyone more familiar with the network difficulties involved with Dollhouse comment on the article's statement that Fox hobbled the show by demanding that the sex be dialed back? My impression from the first six episodes or so and the marketing (which was an even bigger disservice to the follow-up show, the criminally underrated Terminator: the Sarah Connor Chronicles) was that all Fox wanted was pretty girls in miniskirts acting like meat puppets.
Or does that mean that the network dialed up the "sexiness" but had to reduce the sex itself in order to dodge the sticky questions about agency that the writers kept trying to get at?
posted by Idler King at 5:19 AM on May 4, 2012
Or does that mean that the network dialed up the "sexiness" but had to reduce the sex itself in order to dodge the sticky questions about agency that the writers kept trying to get at?
posted by Idler King at 5:19 AM on May 4, 2012
Come on. Puppet episode. You know you want it.
Here's my puppet episode story:
When I watched Angel for the first time, my second son was about 3. He started watching it with me, and loved it. He was completely unfazed by the gruesome demons; in fact, he loved them. The gruesomer, the better. Every now and then there'd be one where I was going "ewww" and half hiding my eyes, and he'd be watching without blinking.
And then, Angel gets turned into a puppet. And my little guy freaks. "I don't like that puppet!" he screams, and runs from the room, crying in terror.
He's 8 now. He still likes gruesome stuff (The Walking Dead is his new favorite show). He enjoys dissecting dead things. He still remembers the terrifying puppet.
posted by not that girl at 5:37 AM on May 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
Here's my puppet episode story:
When I watched Angel for the first time, my second son was about 3. He started watching it with me, and loved it. He was completely unfazed by the gruesome demons; in fact, he loved them. The gruesomer, the better. Every now and then there'd be one where I was going "ewww" and half hiding my eyes, and he'd be watching without blinking.
And then, Angel gets turned into a puppet. And my little guy freaks. "I don't like that puppet!" he screams, and runs from the room, crying in terror.
He's 8 now. He still likes gruesome stuff (The Walking Dead is his new favorite show). He enjoys dissecting dead things. He still remembers the terrifying puppet.
posted by not that girl at 5:37 AM on May 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
jcreigh: "And when can I see "Much Ado about Nothing"? There's nowhere near enough Amy Acker in my life."
Seen "Cabin in the Woods" yet?
So the first guy they pick to take on an Avengers script is the guy who wrote X3? I'm glad they went with Whedon, I can't think of anybody that handles an ensemble cast better.
posted by the_artificer at 6:27 AM on May 4, 2012
Seen "Cabin in the Woods" yet?
So the first guy they pick to take on an Avengers script is the guy who wrote X3? I'm glad they went with Whedon, I can't think of anybody that handles an ensemble cast better.
posted by the_artificer at 6:27 AM on May 4, 2012
AAAAAAAAH I can't believe we never had a Cabin in the Woods thread, so much to unpack there. I get why some people don't like Joss, some of his tics have started wearing on me, but I'd be hard-pressed to think of another pop-culture auteur who puts as much passion and love for the form into all his work.
posted by yellowbinder at 6:34 AM on May 4, 2012
posted by yellowbinder at 6:34 AM on May 4, 2012
Wait, does the introduction blame the existence of Twilight on Joss?
Think about it this way. Special Relativity contributed to the eventual development of nuclear bombs. But I wouldn't blame Special Relativity for nuclear weapons. (I would use Einstein as the example, but that gets muddled with his changing stances on nukes. I'm sure there's better analogies out there too.)
posted by kmz at 6:56 AM on May 4, 2012
Think about it this way. Special Relativity contributed to the eventual development of nuclear bombs. But I wouldn't blame Special Relativity for nuclear weapons. (I would use Einstein as the example, but that gets muddled with his changing stances on nukes. I'm sure there's better analogies out there too.)
posted by kmz at 6:56 AM on May 4, 2012
Did an actual human write the Wolverine movie? I find that hard to believe.
posted by Artw at 6:57 AM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:57 AM on May 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
It somehow manages to wrap up all the loose ends of the series in a way that eliminates the mystery and enjoyment of rewatching.
Well, that would be the "sadly rushed," part, yeah. But there are still plenty of pleasures left for rewatching, to me, and I disagree about the too-precious character notes - they were exactly precious enough to appease my love for the departed show. Anyway, it remains a sharp, clever, fun science fiction film in a field of very few similar contenders over the last 20 years - Sunshine, District 9 and Moon come closest. If anyone can make a case for a better relatively recent scifi film, I'd love to see it, so I can rewatch the contenders if nothing else.
posted by mediareport at 6:57 AM on May 4, 2012
Well, that would be the "sadly rushed," part, yeah. But there are still plenty of pleasures left for rewatching, to me, and I disagree about the too-precious character notes - they were exactly precious enough to appease my love for the departed show. Anyway, it remains a sharp, clever, fun science fiction film in a field of very few similar contenders over the last 20 years - Sunshine, District 9 and Moon come closest. If anyone can make a case for a better relatively recent scifi film, I'd love to see it, so I can rewatch the contenders if nothing else.
posted by mediareport at 6:57 AM on May 4, 2012
Can anyone more familiar with the network difficulties involved with Dollhouse comment on the article's statement that Fox hobbled the show by demanding that the sex be dialed back? My impression from the first six episodes or so and the marketing (which was an even bigger disservice to the follow-up show, the criminally underrated Terminator: the Sarah Connor Chronicles) was that all Fox wanted was pretty girls in miniskirts acting like meat puppets.
Or does that mean that the network dialed up the "sexiness" but had to reduce the sex itself in order to dodge the sticky questions about agency that the writers kept trying to get at?
Per an interview I heard/read/dimly recall, the suits were (rightly) concerned about a show whose premise was basically "sci-fi brainwashed call girls." They demanded that the "dolls" be used for other purposes more frequently, to dial down the ick factor. Which meant that they became assassins and whatnot more often. In defense of the suits, that basic concept is fucking nasty, and unless you get to destroying it/opposing it right out of the gate, the series may be considered in favor of the nastiness.
What I can't figure is why they didn't have the Dushku character "snap out of it" or whatever and rebel against her programming in the motherfucking pilot. Luxuriating in the weirdness of the Dollhouse tech and world for those first however-many-episodes felt skeevy. I ditched it after two or three, and I understand it didn't break into the "stop the Dollhouse" angle until way into the first season. If that was the suits, BAD SUITS! If that was Whedon's idea, BAD JOSS! Either way, NO EVIAN FOR YOU!
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 7:00 AM on May 4, 2012
Or does that mean that the network dialed up the "sexiness" but had to reduce the sex itself in order to dodge the sticky questions about agency that the writers kept trying to get at?
Per an interview I heard/read/dimly recall, the suits were (rightly) concerned about a show whose premise was basically "sci-fi brainwashed call girls." They demanded that the "dolls" be used for other purposes more frequently, to dial down the ick factor. Which meant that they became assassins and whatnot more often. In defense of the suits, that basic concept is fucking nasty, and unless you get to destroying it/opposing it right out of the gate, the series may be considered in favor of the nastiness.
What I can't figure is why they didn't have the Dushku character "snap out of it" or whatever and rebel against her programming in the motherfucking pilot. Luxuriating in the weirdness of the Dollhouse tech and world for those first however-many-episodes felt skeevy. I ditched it after two or three, and I understand it didn't break into the "stop the Dollhouse" angle until way into the first season. If that was the suits, BAD SUITS! If that was Whedon's idea, BAD JOSS! Either way, NO EVIAN FOR YOU!
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 7:00 AM on May 4, 2012
I figured Metafilter hasn't had a Cabin in the Woods thread because it's so hard to discuss nearly any part of that movie without running headfirst into spoilers.
jcreigh, one of the biggest criticisms of the movie, and I think a pretty valid one, is that it just isn't very scary. It's a frequently hilarious dissection of genre tropes built (broadly) within the framework of a horror movie, with a lot of little details thrown in that make horror fans go absolutely gaga, but there's one or two jump scares at most and a fair amount of gore. It's really a comedy most of the time.
YMMV obviously, but I didn't find the traditional scary movie bits particularly scary. What did stay with me was that I'd come to actually really like the characters, thanks to character development and dialog that feels like it has Whedon's fingerprints all over it (I'm not sure co-writer/director Drew Goddard is getting enough credit for this, but I don't know how the writing broke down between him and Whedon). When the plot moves into proper slasher movie territory, the deaths are horrifying because they're happening to likable people who don't deserve their fates, not just because there's a few spurts of blood in the frame. Which is part of the point of the movie, I think.
I think I've avoided any spoilers there. And that's all I'm going to say about that movie. If you're planning on seeing it, try to avoid learning much about it ahead of time.
posted by figurant at 9:42 AM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
jcreigh, one of the biggest criticisms of the movie, and I think a pretty valid one, is that it just isn't very scary. It's a frequently hilarious dissection of genre tropes built (broadly) within the framework of a horror movie, with a lot of little details thrown in that make horror fans go absolutely gaga, but there's one or two jump scares at most and a fair amount of gore. It's really a comedy most of the time.
YMMV obviously, but I didn't find the traditional scary movie bits particularly scary. What did stay with me was that I'd come to actually really like the characters, thanks to character development and dialog that feels like it has Whedon's fingerprints all over it (I'm not sure co-writer/director Drew Goddard is getting enough credit for this, but I don't know how the writing broke down between him and Whedon). When the plot moves into proper slasher movie territory, the deaths are horrifying because they're happening to likable people who don't deserve their fates, not just because there's a few spurts of blood in the frame. Which is part of the point of the movie, I think.
I think I've avoided any spoilers there. And that's all I'm going to say about that movie. If you're planning on seeing it, try to avoid learning much about it ahead of time.
posted by figurant at 9:42 AM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
not a fan of horror, but I loved The Cabin In The Woods. Went to see it knowing nothing about it other than it was a horror movie written by Joss Whedon. I suggest you know as little about it as possible going in as well.
posted by jrishel at 10:58 AM on May 4, 2012
posted by jrishel at 10:58 AM on May 4, 2012
AAAAAAAAH I can't believe we never had a Cabin in the Woods thread, so much to unpack there.
OH MY GOD LET'S DO IT NOW RIGHT NOW
Seriously, everyone, see Cabin in the Woods.
It doesn't matter if you don't like horror movies. This is... different. And HILARIOUS. And if you do like horror movies, there's a LOT here for you as well.
The TV spots and trailers undersell this movie so hard, you're better off not knowing anything at all than building a premature idea from them.
FOLKS SEE THIS MOVIE IT WAS GREAT
posted by FatherDagon at 11:22 AM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
OH MY GOD LET'S DO IT NOW RIGHT NOW
Seriously, everyone, see Cabin in the Woods.
It doesn't matter if you don't like horror movies. This is... different. And HILARIOUS. And if you do like horror movies, there's a LOT here for you as well.
The TV spots and trailers undersell this movie so hard, you're better off not knowing anything at all than building a premature idea from them.
FOLKS SEE THIS MOVIE IT WAS GREAT
posted by FatherDagon at 11:22 AM on May 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Oh man, Cabin was awesome. To praise it without getting to spoilery... It's getting compared a lot to SCREAM as a similar dissection of horror tropes, but I found it infinitely smarter. SCREAM spends a lot of time noting that horror movies have conventions (duh), but CABIN actually asks *why* it has conventions, and what purpose those conventions serve, and then connects the slasher genre to much older traditions of spectacle. It's like a Godard cine-essay with way more gore.
The casting was a little more generic than I'd expect from Whedon, but that was kinda built into the premise.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 2:03 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
The casting was a little more generic than I'd expect from Whedon, but that was kinda built into the premise.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 2:03 PM on May 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
I keep trying to not get my hopes up about The Avengers because of the films that came before it, but Cabin in the Woods reminded me that Joss Whedon is allowed to direct films.
posted by startled at 2:21 PM on May 4, 2012
posted by startled at 2:21 PM on May 4, 2012
but Cabin in the Woods reminded me that Joss Whedon is allowed to direct films.
Except, of course, he didn't direct Cabin in the Woods, he only co-wrote it.
posted by crossoverman at 6:07 PM on May 4, 2012
Except, of course, he didn't direct Cabin in the Woods, he only co-wrote it.
posted by crossoverman at 6:07 PM on May 4, 2012
What I can't figure is why they didn't have the Dushku character "snap out of it" or whatever and rebel against her programming in the motherfucking pilot. Luxuriating in the weirdness of the Dollhouse tech and world for those first however-many-episodes felt skeevy. I ditched it after two or three, and I understand it didn't break into the "stop the Dollhouse" angle until way into the first season.
Yes, the whole point was the creepiness! The whole point of the show was a take on escort/prostitution/service industries and capitalism. The average show might need to hit you with a mallot to tell you that but, fuck, why do all shows have to dumb themselves down for whatever weak stomached average demographic sensibility the suits think they are aiming for. Oh, you already answered my rhetorical question. Thanks.
posted by stratastar at 1:17 AM on May 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yes, the whole point was the creepiness! The whole point of the show was a take on escort/prostitution/service industries and capitalism. The average show might need to hit you with a mallot to tell you that but, fuck, why do all shows have to dumb themselves down for whatever weak stomached average demographic sensibility the suits think they are aiming for. Oh, you already answered my rhetorical question. Thanks.
posted by stratastar at 1:17 AM on May 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I keep trying to not get my hopes up about The Avengers because of the films that came before it, but Cabin in the Woods reminded me that Joss Whedon is allowed to direct films.
posted by startled at 2:21 PM on May 4 [+] [!]
Avengers is basically all the funny, snarky, nerdy, awesome bits of Iron Man, for two and a half hours. It's fucking great.
posted by Sebmojo at 1:37 AM on May 5, 2012
posted by startled at 2:21 PM on May 4 [+] [!]
Avengers is basically all the funny, snarky, nerdy, awesome bits of Iron Man, for two and a half hours. It's fucking great.
posted by Sebmojo at 1:37 AM on May 5, 2012
jcreigh, I can't handle horror at all, and spent much of Cabin in the Woods hiding my eyes, but it's totally worth it.
And yes, Dollhouse has some serious issues, but when it was good, it was mind blowing. And Joss found AMAZING actors for it. Enver Gjokaj as Viktor was incredible, as was Dichen Lachman. Try it!
posted by armacy at 10:40 AM on May 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
And yes, Dollhouse has some serious issues, but when it was good, it was mind blowing. And Joss found AMAZING actors for it. Enver Gjokaj as Viktor was incredible, as was Dichen Lachman. Try it!
posted by armacy at 10:40 AM on May 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Avengers is doing boffo box office. And Cabin in the Woods is still in the top ten! Do y'all know what a strange feeling this is for a hardcore Joss Whedon fan? People like something he made, they really like it! About fucking time.
posted by kmz at 10:41 AM on May 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by kmz at 10:41 AM on May 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
What I can't figure is why they didn't have the Dushku character "snap out of it" or whatever and rebel against her programming in the motherfucking pilot.
Much like Firefly, the original pilot (which did exactly this) was rejected by Fox executives and the serial plotline (which was exactly what you wanted) was pushed back to mid-season.
posted by mek at 12:45 PM on May 5, 2012
Much like Firefly, the original pilot (which did exactly this) was rejected by Fox executives and the serial plotline (which was exactly what you wanted) was pushed back to mid-season.
posted by mek at 12:45 PM on May 5, 2012
Generally if you want to rewatch Dollhouse you can safely skip the first five episodes.
posted by mek at 12:45 PM on May 5, 2012
posted by mek at 12:45 PM on May 5, 2012
Oh my god, I just saw Cabin in the Woods, I think that may be my next favorite movie.
IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN IT GO SEE IT NOW EXPOSING YOURSELF TO THE MOST MINIMAL AMOUNT OF INFORMATION ABOUT IT POSSIBLE ALONG THE WAY.
Trust me.
posted by Artw at 10:10 PM on May 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN IT GO SEE IT NOW EXPOSING YOURSELF TO THE MOST MINIMAL AMOUNT OF INFORMATION ABOUT IT POSSIBLE ALONG THE WAY.
Trust me.
posted by Artw at 10:10 PM on May 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Just saw Cabin in the Woods as well. Highly recommended, but I'd add a warning: it's not really a comedy or a satire. It's both a horror movie (more gruesome than scary) and a full-throated attack on horror movies--Whedon describes it as "a very loving hate letter."
posted by russilwvong at 9:20 AM on May 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by russilwvong at 9:20 AM on May 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Revealed: The White Board From CABIN IN THE WOODS!
(probably best not to look if you don't know why that would be a big deal.)
posted by Artw at 11:20 AM on May 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
(probably best not to look if you don't know why that would be a big deal.)
posted by Artw at 11:20 AM on May 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
The Pentagon halted its cooperation with Marvel Studios’ blockbuster movie The Avengers because the Defense Department didn’t think a movie about superheroes, Norse Gods and intergalactic invasions was sufficiently realistic in its treatment of military bureaucracy.
posted by Artw at 9:35 AM on May 7, 2012
posted by Artw at 9:35 AM on May 7, 2012
>Just saw Cabin in the Woods as well. Highly recommended, but I'd add a warning: it's not really a comedy or a satire.
>It's both a horror movie (more gruesome than scary)
The tone is pretty much Reanimator meets Dollhouse-- it's plainly designed to be amusing and intriguing and provocative, rather than scary.
I left Avengers feeling quietly entertained; I left Cabin in the Woods talking and going through details. Note that, in general, I don't actually like horror movies.
posted by darth_tedious at 11:44 AM on May 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
>It's both a horror movie (more gruesome than scary)
The tone is pretty much Reanimator meets Dollhouse-- it's plainly designed to be amusing and intriguing and provocative, rather than scary.
I left Avengers feeling quietly entertained; I left Cabin in the Woods talking and going through details. Note that, in general, I don't actually like horror movies.
posted by darth_tedious at 11:44 AM on May 7, 2012 [1 favorite]
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posted by tumid dahlia at 5:37 PM on May 3, 2012