so many feels I can't help but ship it like fedex
May 11, 2012 6:03 PM   Subscribe

Creamsicle is tumblr's newest OTP. In this little internet corner of endless fannish possibility, "where large fandoms become generational phenomenon, and unlikely smaller ones explode into supernovas of animated gifs, a full-fledged internet meme-turned-actual fandom [has been spawned] in less than 24 hours."

The Mary Sue Report: It all started with a cartoon that mocked the "me vs THAT WHORE" dichotomy that pop culture, even geek culture, expects girls to particpate in and perpetuate. However, out of context, the image was misinterpreted as approval of special snowflake antics, and tumblr quickly burst into outrage at the depiction contrasting "other girl" with "real girl." It initially seemed that this kerfuffle would go the way of all Tumblr wanks, complete with accusations of point-missing, taking things too seriously, and lots of mocking. But then a user offered up the inevitable fan viewpoint: "I dunno you guys... I think they should make out..."

And thus a ship was born. Taking the form of endless Shoujo manga tropes, Other-Girl-San/Normal-chan spread like wildfire. Five days later, there are now cosplays, fanfic, fanvids, fanvid of fanfic, and an FY tumblr that boasts of more than 1000 entries.

Apart from being a fanthropologist's wet dream, the overnight popularity of this ship definitely contains a hint of defiance. As user mephitztophel commented, "I think what I love most about the Creamsicle shipping is how it subverts the idea that girls have to be pitted against each other."
posted by dustyasymptotes (71 comments total) 18 users marked this as a favorite

 
I no longer understand, nor like, the internet.
posted by trunk muffins at 6:14 PM on May 11, 2012 [27 favorites]


Fanlore? Since when did 'fandom' get all codified?

I mean, I was on USENET....how did we get from Bar Trek to prescriptive meme grammars?
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:14 PM on May 11, 2012 [4 favorites]


Holy fuck, that wiki you linked to "explaining" OTP is some of the most opaque, inside-baseball, jargon-filled stuff I've read for a while. Thank god the fan community is capable of better writing than that.

I dunno, I'm not entirely sure that this meme really has anything to separate it from the millions of other memes with notionally political subtexts. Indeed, I'm not really convinced memes are the best place of a nuanced dialogue around gender - or much else. Caricaturing viewpoints and the creation of in and out groups seems integral to the process of political meme-creation. Further, I would argue that most of the cartoons incorporate an almost wholly male gaze and seem to have succeeded first and foremost in reducing both hypothetical women to sex objects.

No doubt defenders would argue the use of Manga tropes renders it satirical and therefore funny. But to me, objectification with a few postmodernist winks thrown in here and there is still objectification.

The navel-gazing nature of much of Tumblr, married to the navel-gazing culture of many memes, married to the navel-gazing culture and rigid syntax of this kind of "fan culture" does little to engage me; I just don't see anything substantive here.
posted by smoke at 6:18 PM on May 11, 2012 [6 favorites]


That's what the singularity is going to be ... an animated gif of a cat wearing bunny ears, eating a carrot.
posted by user92371 at 6:18 PM on May 11, 2012 [4 favorites]


Just so I am clear on this: a critique of the madonna/whore binary has been co-opted as a typical heterosexual male fantasy about lesbians?
posted by Saxon Kane at 6:19 PM on May 11, 2012 [24 favorites]


wow. I'm disturbed at how much of this I understood.

(fyi: "ship" is fanfiction for "relationship")
posted by Jon_Evil at 6:19 PM on May 11, 2012


I feel very old.
posted by weinbot at 6:20 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


I mean: "Within the first hour, the his post had 200 notes."

Good God stop the presses! 200 notes, you say? Truly, a tsunami. When I read stuff like that, it's really hard for me not to immediately characterise this as more inane kipple.
posted by smoke at 6:21 PM on May 11, 2012


By the way, could someone explain the significance of the -sempai and -chan suffixes? I'm pretty ignorant about manga (or whatever aspect of Japanese culture this is appropriating).
posted by Saxon Kane at 6:23 PM on May 11, 2012


Just so I am clear on this: a critique of the madonna/whore binary has been co-opted as a typical heterosexual male fantasy about lesbians?

[...again]
posted by BrotherCaine at 6:29 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


Yeah, this is one of those things I don’t understand any better after I read the explanation. I didn’t even get that it related to Manga, or does it? Wait, I don’t really want to know.
posted by bongo_x at 6:32 PM on May 11, 2012


No.

I find Tumblr culture to be opaque, confusing, and far too fast-moving for me to get a handle on, but one thing I do know: it's girl-driven. And that this particular meme has nothing to do with the virgin/whore dichotomy.
posted by jokeefe at 6:32 PM on May 11, 2012 [7 favorites]


Sorry, the "no" was in response to the previous comment about "typical heterosexual male fantasy".
posted by jokeefe at 6:33 PM on May 11, 2012


The "chan" suffix is endearing and cute. The male equivalent is "kun." "Senpai" is the suffix for those a year ahead of you at school (this is a part of schoolyard culture that also pops up in other group settings). The opposite is "kōhai" or "kouhai," depending on your preferred romanization scheme. As for shipping, I just want to say one word to you: "JohnKat."
posted by Nomyte at 6:35 PM on May 11, 2012


I no longer understand, nor like, the internet.
Huh, it made perfect sense to me, it's actually almost internet-retro at this point, like from back in the day when memes were still sort of underground and the internet and twitter hadn't taken over and merged with pop culture at large. The only thing unusual about it is the explosive growth. But I thought the illustrations were cute.
By the way, could someone explain the significance of the -sempai and -chan suffixes? I'm pretty ignorant about manga (or whatever aspect of Japanese culture this is appropriating).
Well, it's more like a Simulacrum of Japanese terminology, where it's like a reference to 4chan culture, which is a reference to 2ch and probably various Animes or something. I don't know if you can draw a direct parallel but I would guess that the terms crop up a lot in hentai or something.

But Sempai means teacher/mentor, right? And chan is dimmunitive, so I'm guessing it basically means that Other Girls-sempai is the dominant in the relationship, and "teaching" normal-chan about loosening up and exploring he sexuality or whatever.
posted by delmoi at 6:36 PM on May 11, 2012


Something is happening here,
but I don’t know what it is...
...Just call me Mr. Jones
posted by quazichimp at 6:39 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


A favorite will be given to the comment who can best interpret the content in the Know Your Meme in prose that any adult English-speaking person with a moderate amount of familiarity with American pop culture can understand, but not necessarily with the segment of pop culture being discussed here. Illustrative members of this hypothetical set would be middle-aged members of Metafilter, hipsters in coffee shops, long-distance truck drivers, premed students, and your mom.
posted by ardgedee at 6:49 PM on May 11, 2012 [2 favorites]


I guess I never understood what anyone who calls out "objectification" is really trying to say.

I mean, when you objectify someone in a real world context it means you're stopping them from speaking for themselves, right? You're preventing them from being the subject. That's why it's not self-objectifying when you dress up, because you're expressing yourself, no matter how much lustful gaze you draw in the process.

When speaking of fictional characters, that meaning of "objectification" is out the window, because the characters can only be the subject of the author's story (or other type artwork), not of whatever social interaction they engage in--because they're not real people and can't engage in social interaction. It's meaningless to accuse anyone of objectifying fictional characters because objects is all fictional characters can be, and often not even that.

I suppose the accusation works on the assumption that regarding humans as primarily objects of one's own desire is always bad, even when you're faking it, like with a cartoon of girls kissing. I find it hard to see anything feminist in that; it's simple antisexualism.

Or perhaps the issue is with the phenomenon of shipping characters together: it misses the point of the source material, and reduces potentially complex characters into coordinates on a love dodecahedron. Fair cop, but then you're just saying that shippers have bad taste. I mean, I can't disagree with that assessment, but as long as shippers don't e.g. play matchmaker with everyone they meet, I don't see any social or ethical problem there.
posted by LogicalDash at 7:03 PM on May 11, 2012 [4 favorites]


Guys I have spent like two months in a deep pit of fandom tumbles, this makes total and complete sense to me.

But I liked it better when Jermey Renner's butt was a meme.

So many feels you guys.
posted by The Whelk at 7:03 PM on May 11, 2012 [8 favorites]


Fanlore? Since when did 'fandom' get all codified?


Since tvtropes. At least.
posted by The Whelk at 7:04 PM on May 11, 2012 [3 favorites]


Also, yeah the girl driven stuff, tumblr fandom world is very girl driven and while I know it intellectually, it's still a mite confusing when a college girl harry potter fandom tumblr just reports straight up gay porn. Not shipping, not fanart, not slash art, gay porn.

Not that I MIND of course, it's just .....interesting.

And they often have better tastes in guys then me.
posted by The Whelk at 7:08 PM on May 11, 2012 [2 favorites]


"I believe the children are our future // Teach them well and let them lead the way"

For some reason that's all I can think of right now...
posted by MCMikeNamara at 7:13 PM on May 11, 2012


I am also confused by this. Is it supposed to be funny? Erotic? Viral campaign for a delicious frozen treat?
posted by snofoam at 7:24 PM on May 11, 2012


So many feels you guys.

ALL THE FEELS. ALL OF THEM.

Also, yeah the girl driven stuff, tumblr fandom world is very girl driven and while I know it intellectually, it's still a mite confusing when a college girl harry potter fandom tumblr just reports straight up gay porn. Not shipping, not fanart, not slash art, gay porn.

It makes complete sense to me. Absolute, perfect, sexy sense. But then I count some Tumblegirls among my best online-friends, so there you go.
posted by jokeefe at 7:33 PM on May 11, 2012 [3 favorites]


FANS TALK ABOUT FANS TALKING ABOUT FANDOM

FOOTAGE AT 11

NOW BACK TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED FANS TALKING ABOUT FANDOM
posted by waxbanks at 7:37 PM on May 11, 2012


I am also confused by this. Is it supposed to be funny? Erotic? Viral campaign for a delicious frozen treat?

It's a kind of joke. It's a product of the creative riffing that is Tumblr-- the reproduction and linking and multiplication, with variations, of images and ideas. It's made by young women, so there's lots of sex talk. It's like a huge ongoing fractally-type conversation in which the language is primarily that of the image. Part of understanding it is knowing that the conversation is taking place between young women; men are welcome to join if they get up to speed on the culture, but this is not a performance for men, or one which is concerned about men as an audience. It's girlworld. Does that help?

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some Sherlock fanfic to catch up on....
posted by jokeefe at 7:38 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


And so Anonimus, Lord of 4Chantramar did note the ways of Trope and Meme in his greatest work, the Codex Lolartes.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:43 PM on May 11, 2012


May I suggest Magical Deductions as a fan girl tumblr training wheels? My favorite thing about this tumbkr is that her Sherlock fandom expands to all versions of Sherlock, which is charming.
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 PM on May 11, 2012


Hey you damned kids, with all your internet "lingo"...

Get your ships offa my lawn.
posted by Windopaene at 7:58 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


Something is happening here,
but I don’t know what it is...
...Just call me Mr. Jones


She's a-lookin' at you; oh, no, no, she lookin' at me.
posted by curious nu at 8:05 PM on May 11, 2012 [3 favorites]


Oh, this old thing? So four days ago. We're back on the fifth revisit of Science Alliance now. It's not exactly for a heteronormative audience either.

I liked Creamsicle for a while, though. It pinged my yuri sensors pleasantly. But after a while, with every third post on my dash about it, it went from "aw, how cute and meta" to "waitaminute, are these people being serious? Oh, wait, no... how can I tell? How do I go about best judging these people?" I mean really, I can't function if I'm not being judgy, you know?

The flurry has calmed down now and I'm back to amusement. In my mind it happened like at least a month ago. Tumblr travels even faster than normal internet time.
posted by Mizu at 8:06 PM on May 11, 2012


THE SCIENCE ALLIANCE

BEST FRANDS
posted by elizardbits at 8:14 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


Just in case you were wondering when this would happen.

(via. Also, one should be a giraffe, right?)
posted by mendel at 8:17 PM on May 11, 2012 [3 favorites]


Just the idea of trying to understand this makes me feel tired.
posted by davebush at 8:17 PM on May 11, 2012


I feel like a direct link to the quintessential cosplay is necessary.
posted by six-or-six-thirty at 8:19 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


I feel very old.

Me too, but I think it's awesome! Those goddamend kids on my lawn are expending all their youthful energy on this... thing that I can only barely understand, and it's fucking hilarious.
posted by lekvar at 8:36 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


The "chan" suffix is endearing and cute. The male equivalent is "kun." "Senpai" is the suffix for those a year ahead of you at school (this is a part of schoolyard culture that also pops up in other group settings). The opposite is "kōhai" or "kouhai," depending on your preferred romanization scheme. As for shipping, I just want to say one word to you: "JohnKat."

This is true, but it is a little more complicated. A sempai is an older student that decides to take on the responsibility of guiding a younger student. The kouhai actively accepts the sempai. I think the ideal western example of a sempai/kouhai relationship in western culture is the relationship between Gabriel Jarret and Val Kilmer in Real Genius. There are obligations in both directions.

The sexual implications of this relationship I leave to the reader.
posted by Quonab at 8:49 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


I have a Tumblr, which has led to my having a Tumblr dashboard, which has led to my having a whole hell of a lot of FEELS about being too damned old.

I tell you what, though -- I am so glad and proud for girls on the internet that they have access to a girl-driven fan culture. Is it perfect? No, but it's a hell of a lot better than what I had in the mid-90s, which is the option of being the One Cool Girl at the sausage fest of nerd culture. These kids rewrite and remix every day. More of it involves Impact font than I would like to see, but there it is -- it isn't for me.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:52 PM on May 11, 2012 [4 favorites]


The sexual implications of this relationship I leave to the reader.

It was hot and I was hungry!
posted by curious nu at 9:07 PM on May 11, 2012


I love that it makes me feel old, cause look what the cool kids are doing on the Internet website! they're making a fan culture that is way more interesting and man butt filled than before, which is great cause before sucked!

I'm just init for the animated Gifs of Peeta defeating people with bread myself.
posted by The Whelk at 9:45 PM on May 11, 2012 [3 favorites]


I don't

what

I

I think I would have to watch a lot more TV and movies to make any sense of

actually no

looking at it a bit more it pretty much makes "sense"

insofar as any tiny fragment of an internet meme being born and exploding makes "sense" when you look at a random slice of it from the outside

which is to say "not very much" but yeah there are certain patterns I've seen passing by on a couple tumblrs I follow and

the only thing I really don't get, and this is really bugging me far more than it ought to:

Why "creamsicle"?
posted by egypturnash at 9:45 PM on May 11, 2012


Creamsicles are a summertime treat.

They are also bright orange.
posted by The Whelk at 9:47 PM on May 11, 2012


I suppose the accusation works on the assumption that regarding humans as primarily objects of one's own desire is always bad, even when you're faking it, like with a cartoon of girls kissing. I find it hard to see anything feminist in that; it's simple antisexualism.

Having reservations about things that encourage our tendency to think of other people as objects to be used is anti-sex?

Cultivating a habit of thinking of partners and potential partners as subjects seems like Good Sex 101 to me.
posted by straight at 9:54 PM on May 11, 2012


Why "creamsicle"?

Because one of the girls is orange and one of the girls is white. What else is orange and white? A creamsicle.
posted by asciident at 10:04 PM on May 11, 2012


From the second link

One of the first uses of the term was in 1984 from a summary from the publisher of zine Alternaties #2, "This zine has something for everybody...The stories are mostly Spock-centric, so if you love a certain Vulcan, this one's for you!...And boy, does he get around -- we have Kirk/Spock, Spock/McCoy, Spock/Chapel, Spock/and various others, including T'Pring...And of course, more Kirk/Spock, because we all know that's our one true pairing!!!...Variety is the spice of life -- and this zine is extremely spicy."

The mention of Spock/McCoy caused the same physical reaction as when someone holds a milk carton to your face and says here smell this.
posted by The Whelk at 10:06 PM on May 11, 2012 [5 favorites]


I was just about to comment, "yeah, I'm just gonna mentally file this away in the same region of my brain as bronies and never think about it again", but then I clicked on mendel's link and now my the contents of my head are splattered all over the walls.
posted by dvdgee at 10:29 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


Tumblr: 4Chan for women.
posted by Arthur Phillips Jones Jr at 10:30 PM on May 11, 2012 [8 favorites]


Strong enough for a man, but with enough gay porn Gifs for a woman.


Also FRANDSHEP.
posted by The Whelk at 10:48 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


So, why is it "Other-Girls-Sempai" and "Normal-Chan"? Why those suffixes for those characters?
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:51 PM on May 11, 2012


So is ships==shops??

Are these pixels ships?
posted by wcfields at 10:57 PM on May 11, 2012


To simplify it as much as I can:

Ships = [relation]ships.

Shipping = wanting given characters (not always 2, not always human[oid] or even sentient for that matter) to be in a romantic (not always sexual) relationship with one another, a desire often expressed by way of creative activity such as art and writing. (But you can ship something and not contribute to fan culture for it no problem.) Examples: "I am totally shipping ketchup with mustard on this hotdog right now." "No way! Gross! Ketchup is way too good for mustard. Besides, hotdog doesn't need that sort of complication."

Sempai = Japanese suffix indicating superior but still school aged status, when voluntarily used implies a certain amount of mentorship or responsibility on the part of the Sempai towards the younger/less experienced other. (It's polite in actual Japanese school situations to address any students who are your senior with this suffix, or to use it as a pronoun by itself.) When english speaking people co-opt this term for characters of non-specified nationality, it's very indicative of the whole thing being farcical and self-aware.

Chan = Japanese suffix implying cuteness and normally younger status in relation to others. This is more common than Sempai, and has double meanings in many english speaking fandoms with different implications, but in this context, by labeling the "normal" character -chan, that means "we" are supposed to be the cute, "innocent", "naive" one. Irony!

Is it objectification? Yes. It's also self-insert, which is generally frowned upon. All in good fun! Now, who can point me to that fic where Captain Kirk is a purple ocelot?
posted by Mizu at 11:34 PM on May 11, 2012 [1 favorite]


OMG MY BB CREAMSICLE

ALL MY CREYS ;_;

a/s/ontd?
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 11:42 PM on May 11, 2012 [2 favorites]


A favorite will be given to the comment who can best interpret the content in the Know Your Meme in prose that any adult English-speaking person with a moderate amount of familiarity with American pop culture can understand, but not necessarily with the segment of pop culture being discussed here.

Oh what the hell, I woke up at ridiculous o'clock and Quincy's not on yet, so:

Creamsicle, for everyone.

About:

"Creamsicle" is the name given to a relationship between two characters from a cartoon parodying the difference between "real girls" and "other girls". Having a name for the relationship makes it easier to identify yourself as a fan of that relationship (much like "Team Edward" or "Brangelina" and such).

Origin:

On May 6, 2012, beekkake, a member of the Tumblr website, posted an image on her weblog making fun of the "normal girl"/"other girl" dichotomy that exists, where normal girls have real breasts, are pale, have no makeup, use Tumblr and are nerdy, while other girls have fake breasts, spray tan, excessive makeup, use Facebook and are trashy.

While the original image was a parody, this quickly spread through other Tumblr uses, and was quickly misinterpreted as beekkake's actual opinion, rather than a parody.

Spread:

Initial Parody

The first parodies of beekkake's image were similar to the original, with other items or creatures replacing either the Normal Girl or the Other Girl, for example, comparing the Normal Girl to a cuttlefish.

Creamsicle

The concept of Other Girl and Normal Girl being in a relationship started when another Tumblr user, tokimekuwaku, posted the original image with another image of Other Girl and Normal Girl kissing, including the comment "I dunno you guys...I think they should make out."

Other users quickly jumped onto this concept, creating images where the two girls were in romantic situations.

A third Tumblr user, Orchid Poison, gave them names based on Japanese slang, calling Other Girl "Other Girls-Sempai" ('Sempai' is an honorific/suffix added to the names of girls who are a year above the speaker in high school) and Normal Girl "Normal-Chan" ('chan' is an honorific/suffix added to the names of people who are younger and feel affection for).

A weblog on Tumblr was created on May 7th, 2012, specifically for the relationship between Other Girl and Normal Girl. Called "Fuck Yeah Creamsicle" (in the tradition of weblogs on Tumblr celebrating a particular item being called "Fuck Yeah ____"), the weblog posts images and text posts other Tumblr users have made celebrating the relationship.

The relationship was featured on another weblog, The Mary Sue, and Josh Lesnick, an artist with a popular web-based comic named "Girly!", created his own image celebrating the relationship.

Spinoff Characters

As users created more and more images and stories based upon Normal Girl and Other Girl, users also created additional characters to parody other common stereotypes. These additional characters are currently being identified and posted on the Know Your Meme website.



And now Quincy is on.

(Plus, Science Bros > Creamsicle ALL THE WAY)
posted by Katemonkey at 12:03 AM on May 12, 2012 [3 favorites]


Reading this feels like watching an entire subset of society disappear, en masse, into their respective bellybuttons, accompanied by a quiet *splooch* sound.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 1:12 AM on May 12, 2012 [4 favorites]


there will be a backlash and it will be horrible :(
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 2:36 AM on May 12, 2012


Fanlore? Since when did 'fandom' get all codified?

Let me introduce y'all to Fancyclopedia, published in 1944 and certainly not the first of its kind.

The twitter wars and tumblerassacres of today are as nothing compared to the immortal storms of the 1930ties and 1940ties.
posted by MartinWisse at 4:03 AM on May 12, 2012 [7 favorites]


The wank from that whole Shakespeare kerfuffle still isn't resolved.
posted by Mizu at 4:07 AM on May 12, 2012


MartinWisse, that's amazing, thank you for the link.
posted by jokeefe at 5:27 AM on May 12, 2012


Man, I love it when we all end up in the same fandom (jokeefe, I'm looking at you). My online identities are smashing together (again).
posted by Hildegarde at 8:10 AM on May 12, 2012


Oh I mean to say: I love this ship, it's adorable. I think it's funny that different artists interpret the tiny black top as a blackout line. Both make sense!

I ship it.
posted by Hildegarde at 8:15 AM on May 12, 2012


There is really a missed opportunity for a well designed "I'd ship it" shirt.
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 AM on May 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


We've got quertee, we just need someone with a good design sense.
posted by Hildegarde at 8:27 AM on May 12, 2012


I thought the average tumblr was random, but not random enough to use as a OTP.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 9:42 AM on May 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


There is really a missed opportunity for a well designed "I'd ship it" shirt.

OMG. This would be a perfect ship day shirt for me. (My current ship day shirt being—since work involves teh reading—my tl;dr shirt.)
posted by limeonaire at 11:34 AM on May 12, 2012


But is there a significant different between "I'd ship it" and "I'd ship that"? The latter just sounds better to me.
posted by limeonaire at 11:36 AM on May 12, 2012


If you don't get tumblr, you probably will never get this.

Surely the shirt would be "I ship it."? You can't put shipping into the conditional, if you would under any circumstance, then you do already. Just maybe less obsessively than others. Or "I will ship it." as in, you're offering your support to a hypothetical ship?
posted by Braeburn at 12:33 PM on May 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


It's actually really cool to see something that could've been slut shaming transformed into a cute, fun, sexy fantasy, usually in a way that upends the stereotype while pointing out the advantages and appeal of the other girl.

(That, and sempais seducing nerdy girls are hot.)
posted by markkraft at 12:54 PM on May 12, 2012


Metafilter: hotdog doesn't need that sort of complication
posted by wcfields at 3:18 PM on May 12, 2012


I've now made this part of the world of Doodle or Die...
posted by limeonaire at 8:50 PM on May 12, 2012


OMG MY BB CREAMSICLE

ALL MY CREYS ;_;

a/s/ontd?

The question, Alex, is: "What would Emily Dickenson write if she were alive today?"
posted by Bill Peschel at 2:34 PM on May 13, 2012 [3 favorites]


Because I could not stop for death
I gladly shipped him with me.
posted by The Whelk at 3:12 PM on May 13, 2012 [3 favorites]


« Older "Nicolas Sarkozy did very little about fostering i...  |  Spanning one-ninth of the eart... Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments