Oh I remember you. You're the "Chaya" who commented all over my interview with Deborah Feldman running damage control over what you perceive(d) as lies and unfortunate misapprehensions w/r/t "the truth about Orthodox Jewish life."posted by hermitosis at 2:15 PM on May 22, 2012 [21 favorites]
Why can't your story and Deborah's story be equally true, and equally exemplary of the kind of opportunities that your religion creates for women? Why are you so afraid of acknowledging the problems in your community, to the point of attempting to discredit or dismiss people (including victims of abuse) who step forward to share their side of the story?
I actually believe most of what you say, and I do respect everyone's right to live the way they choose, but the frenetic and eager-to-please way in which you present your case to a mostly secular audience who won't know any better -- as if you yourself are not an extreme exception in so many ways (especially with regards to your high level of education) -- repulses me.
But it's all some big misunderstanding, right? Right. I'm disappointed that xoJane decided upon this (and you) as their way of providing a dissenting voice to follow the Feldman interview.
Well, well, well. Poor Deborah Feldman here. I would love to debate you on all of your assertions but for now I will make one point. For months, you and many others like you who felt offended by my decision to share my personal experience attacked me on the grounds that I was trying to speak for all Hasidic or Orthodox women. However I refrained from using pronouns such as "we" and "us" - a phenomenon your article is peppered with. Do you really believe you have tapped into the communal consciousness of all Hasidic women? Especially the majority of Hasidic women, who did not grow up on the liberal fringe, but were deliberately prevented from even achieving a high school diploma? Yes you are indeed a lucky exception. The day you start fighting for all Hasidic women to have access to the privileges you enjoy is the day you will become my hero.posted by hermitosis at 2:31 PM on May 22, 2012 [35 favorites]
(1) I think many would consider your remark about "faith communities" to be incredibly insulting and offensive. For the record, Judaism, as the specific example, is not faith-based and Jews do not live lives "about accepting a certain worldview based on non-proven beliefs." Judaism is a religion of scholars, historians, scientists, professors, doctors, kings & kingly advisors, etc. for thousands of years. There is nothing that Jews do without cause, no beliefs they hold without specific evidence, and no practices they perform that are not sourced to nearly the beginning of mankind.Judaism, as the specific example, is not faith-based
...
Fun fact: Jewish law prohibits marrying someone who you're not attracted to.Does anyone know what she's referring to here?
In addition, Feldman falsely claims that her mother is listed in the closing credits of the 2001 documentary about gay Orthodox Jews, “Trembling Before G-d.”As it happens the movie and its credits are available online. I don't see her mother listed either.
There are 565 men and 389 women aged 25 and over who have a college education or higher in Crown Heights. There are just 260 men and 148 women with a college education or higher in the over-three-times-as-large Williamsburg community. There are only 250 men and (somewhat surprisingly) just 208 women who are not high school graduates or the equivalent in Crown Heights. There are 2499 men and 2638 women who are not high school graduates or the equivalent in Williamsburg.FYI: Crown Heights implies Chabad; Williamsburg implies mostly Satmar.
You've Lost Your Temper So I Don't Have To Listen To You Anymoreposted by callmejay at 11:02 AM on May 23, 2012 [13 favorites]
This one is particularly effective because it really pushes home a sense of futility and hopelessness to the Marginalised Person™. Remember they should never get the impression they can win one of these arguments, because you should be consistently implying that there was never anything to argue over to begin with.
If you’ve been following the steps correctly so far, by this point any reasonable person is going to be feeling pretty angry. This anger could lead to them being more aggressive and abrasive. The Marginalised Person™ has possibly even decided that you’re simply too obnoxious to waste patience on and is venting their sense of frustration.
This is when you whip this step out!
You can use it to disregard everything they’ve said to you and just not deal with the issue, in particular ignoring your prior behaviour that led to the anger. Conventions of social conduct hold civil discourse as the ideal at all times. When people get angry, it gives you a convenient “out” without having to concede to any of their objections or acknowledge their pain.
Furthermore, with this one you can make it seem as though you were ready and willing to listen, but then they ruined it. This way you can leave them with the sense that if only they’d been a good little Marginalised Person™ and toed the line, then they may have won someone over to the cause!
It just adds a particular distaste to the whole affair that no derailing should be without!
"What's fascinating to me in all this is that the Satmars only want to engage on the smallest points:, like where Feldman went to school and the technicalities of her mother's divorce, I've received not a word of protest about the conclusion of my review, which was, I thought, the most damning:"The real issue is sex. Not the act, but what it signifies --- male control of women. That old story. We see it in far too many places; dehumanizing women is a key component of fundamentalist cults, from hardcore Muslims to certain Republicans.Why didn't the Satmars take me on about the blatant sexism that oppresses both women and men in their community? I can only conclude this: It's a problem for Deborah Feldman --- not for them"
Men who oppress women --- they say they love them, but it seems more like they fear and hate them --- haven't been taught that sex is our reward for making it through the day. Like their women, these men have been sold the idea that sex is just for procreation. No wonder they feel like they're the ones who are oppressed.
There are claims in this book that Hasids have disputed. I can't tell what's true. But I'm sure of one thing: Men who can't live equally with women aren't worth living with."
I figure you can't have a religion in which men daily thank their deity that they weren't born women and not have some pretty serious misogyny built in.Is this referring to something specific? An actual prayer that they're supposed to do daily? If so, what is that, please?
binding arbitration agreements are signed before marriage that agree to take all divorce and custody matters to rabbinical courts that are completely sanctioned (meaning they have full legal jurisdiction) by the U.S. Supreme Court.That... shouldn't be allowed.
Flunkie: for the love of God and all things holy, do not start pulling Bible quotes out of the air unless you're willing to learn the Gemara on that line as well. There is a HUGE, HUUUUGE body of literature that defines Jewish laws (if you can read it in 7 years of daily study, you're considered to have done well!), most of which (...)Ummm, it was a question (actually two). Maybe you could try answering it instead of telling me not to ask it? I'm aware of the existence of non-Biblical stuff, I'm just not familiar with it. What specifically is she referring to when she says the law says you must be attracted to the person you marry, and how, if at all, are other instructions like "you must marry this particular person" fit into that?
Driving: Hasidic women are not allowed behind the wheelNone of these items are true of Lubavitch Jewish women. My Lubavitch female friends drive. They receive high school diplomas. They are educated post-high-school. They date multiple men before choosing one to marry. The ones I know teach their daughters about sex (if on a delayed schedule compared to the usual secular one that I will be using with my daughters). I know more than one who has taken birth control, as a personal decision in order to time the arrival of children, including one who did it in order to get her BA beforehand. They DEFINITELY are present at their sons' brises, and they choose the mohel.
Education: Hasidic women do not receive high school diplomas. The word college was censored from our textbooks.
Dating: Hasidic women are not allowed to get to know their prospective spouses, or choose between a selection. They are assigned one future husband and are permitted to meet them once or twice, for a short and supervised period, before the wedding.
Sex Education: I was never taught about sex or sexually transmitted diseases
Privacy: The Rabbis and Mikva Attendants had to be involved in the most intimate details of my private life, including but not limited to the stains on my underwear.
Lack of Birth Control: Hasidic Women are not allowed to make decisions regarding reproduction
Safe Circumcision: I was not allowed to attend my son’s Bris, nor was I permitted any input as to who was to perform the procedure or the manner in which it was conducted. Thank goodness it wasn’t my baby that died of herpes or had his bandages wrapped so tightly they cut off all his circulation.
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posted by Sokka shot first at 2:08 PM on May 22, 2012 [2 favorites]