"Closer to 3,000"?

October 24, 2001 10:38 PM

"Closer to 3,000"?
NYC City hall has been quietly trimming the official count of the missing and dead from the collapse of the World Trade Center. This number, often simply "Five thousand" in my and most people's minds, actually comes from several sources, the trickiest of which are reports of missing loved ones to the police. People keep coming up with their own numbers. How would you count it? What does it mean if we say "Five thousand" but your kids learn "Three thousand" in their grade-school social studies texts?
posted by rschram (36 comments total)

Thousands of people died, whether it's 3000 or 5000. We're never going to know for sure.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:45 PM on October 24, 2001

Seems like a pretty pointless exercise. Even if they were to whittle it down to five janitors and a waitress who died, I doubt we'd hear anyone say, "Oh, so I guess it wasn't such a big deal after all."

So, to answer your questions, I would count the number of dead and missing by counting how many people died and adding that figure to the number of people missing.

As for what it means if we say 5,000 but future textbooks list it as 3,000, I think it means we may have to send all official documents to Florida for a recount.
posted by Bixby23 at 11:47 PM on October 24, 2001

Please, God, let it be 3000. Even 4999 would be an improvement.
posted by MonkeyMeat at 11:52 PM on October 24, 2001

Your kids grade school textbooks wouldn't have this event in it yet. They are dated 1980. Don't worry about it till the year 2008.
posted by andryeevna at 11:54 PM on October 24, 2001

Agreed. The discrepancy will sift itself out.

What I'd like to hear are the personal stories of these "bystanders, visitors, undocumented day laborers or deliverymen'(s)" co-workers stories of how they found out they'd actually perished *in* the attack. Imagine the rumors in New York's corner pubs and breakrooms! I don't think it will ever be possible to know, with any ounce of certainty, how many and exactly *who* died Sept 11.

In fact, I predict that decades from now there will be books and movies about a man who was chalked up as one of the dead for years, but comes back to his family in the end.

He'd been in the Philippines of course.

Or had been "seen" in Des Moines Iowa mere minutes before the news broke. "Impossible" they'd say for him to be there.
posted by crasspastor at 11:55 PM on October 24, 2001

I was downtown today and got another first-hand view of the mess. It's a wonder more people weren't killed yet some kind of testament that so many got out.

The World Trade Centers had their own Zip Code, so does the World Financial Center. Over 50,000 people worked there every day. I don't think I lived in a town with 50,000 people until I got to college. As bad as this is, it could have been far, far worse.

Still, numbers are meaningless. There is a photo of a woman who died in the World Trade Center collapse taped to the building across the street from my apartment. It's been there since at least September 12 or 13. As I walked by it again today, I wondered if anyone was going to take it down, and what a simple, horrible job that would be.
posted by joemaller at 12:08 AM on October 25, 2001

Please, God, let it be 3000. Even 4999 would be an improvement

Right. Every life lost has to be multiplied by all the people who suffer that loss. One person is, in fact, several: a mother, a sister, a friend. Not to mention all the future friends, children,etc. that will now never be.
Every life saved saves the same small crowd. So let's not be "3000, 4000, whatever". They're not just numbers. They're one(plus, say, 10 other people affected)plus one... into the thousands...
posted by MiguelCardoso at 12:13 AM on October 25, 2001

I wondered if anyone was going to take it down, and what a simple, horrible job that would be.

I gather the poignancy. But she may not have died.
posted by crasspastor at 12:15 AM on October 25, 2001

I haven't been too close but I've been close enough. I went to meet a friend for brunch two weeks ago in TriBeCa which involved getting out that the Chambers 1/9 stop. (a few blocks north of Ground Zero, at the time that's where the blocade was, I think they moved it a block or two south yesterday). I was not prepared for the scene outside. All the buildings around looked like they'd been hosed down a few times, but everything still had a dusty/muddy look. The second you got out of the train you could smell what I call 'the smell'. I wasn't interested in gawking at the debris, but I did glance down south and saw a debris covered building with smoke coming out from behind it.

Truly horrible.

For those interested the smell is still there. I'm pretty sure I smelt it two nights ago (I live about 7 miles away, so I've only smelt it two times, the first time was about 3 days after the event). And tonight I was down in the Village (around West 4th) and the wind shifted and all of a sudden 'the smell' was there. It's hard to describe 'the smell' - It's kind of a smoky smell with a large amount of 'burning plastic' in it too. When you're no longer thinking about the attacks (thinking about anthrax now!) and then you encounter the smell it kind of 'brings you down' a few levels.
posted by QrysDonnell at 12:27 AM on October 25, 2001

Of course the number matters - the more dead, the more lives affected and... how do I phrase this?.. the bigger the crime. These figures do tend to take on a life of their own- for example, there are dozens of scholars who argue about the exact number of Holocaust victims (many of whom were gypsies/ gays etc), but popularly the phrase "6 million Jews" tends to sum it up.
posted by skylar at 12:47 AM on October 25, 2001

its estimated that between 6 & 7 million afghanistan citizens *will* die in the next few weeks.

When the US governments "War on Terrorism" is over, what will the conclusion be of a cost benefit analysis? Will the numbers be even? Will that satisfy us?

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.
~stalin
posted by slappy at 2:07 AM on October 25, 2001

One person is, in fact, several: a mother, a sister, a friend. Not to mention all the future friends, children,etc. that will now never be

And yet the huge discrepancy shows the extent to which New York is, and always has been, a city where you could sever those ties and live a quite anonymous life among the millions. I suspect there'll be missing who are not dead, and dead who were never thought to be missing. It's beyond knowing. As Jonathan Schell put it in The Nation, that's not just death, it's annihilation. And it's that, I think, that affects people: the realisation that life can be unexisted. In that regard, the raw numbers don't matter: it's the sign of something truly horrific is when you can't enumerate the victims.
posted by holgate at 3:19 AM on October 25, 2001

For those interested the smell is still there.

Wow. I think that single sentence affected me more than anything else since the initial post-9/11 emotional wave. Smell is such a powerful memory trigger, and being so far away from the chaos myself, I had completely forgotten that of course, it would be a component in all this insanity.

Thanks for making things that much more real for me, Qrys. I mean it.
posted by toddshot at 3:38 AM on October 25, 2001

its estimated that between 6 & 7 million afghanistan citizens *will* die in the next few weeks.

When the US governments "War on Terrorism" is over, what will the conclusion be of a cost benefit analysis? Will the numbers be even? Will that satisfy us?

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.
~stalin
posted by slappy at 3:39 AM on October 25, 2001

whoops. disregard th last post.
posted by slappy at 3:43 AM on October 25, 2001

After the Paddington rail disaster in the UK, a number of people faked their disappearance in order to start a new life. As a result the casualty figures dropped quite significantly. They were caught because all the bodies were identifiable.

But in the WTC ... will we ever know?
posted by grahamwell at 4:37 AM on October 25, 2001

its estimated that between 6 & 7 million afghanistan citizens *will* die in the next few weeks.

The reason these people will die is not all attributable to the U.S. Government. In fact, I would wage that very few of them will be the result of our actions. The simple fact of the matter is that millions of them would die this winter anyway.

Their own "government" does not help them. They do not provide for the needy, and many people will starve or freeze to death because of it.

Watch who you blame. Had the Taliban government not been harboring Usama Bin Laden, none of these attacks would be happening.
posted by presto at 4:56 AM on October 25, 2001

denial serves no purpose, but to salve the conscience of the denier.
the us and uk governments are directly responsible for the deaths of afgans, by bombing and starvation.
in order to agree that the taliban are responsible you have to agree that the act of revenge by the us on afganistan is reasonable. that is not a view shared by everyone outside, or inside the us.
'watch who you blame', indeed.
This article may have already been linked to, but it's a good one.

'The International Coalition Against Terror is a largely cabal of the richest countries in the world. Between them, they manufacture and sell almost all of the world's weapons, they possess the largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction - chemical, biological and nuclear. They have fought the most wars, account for most of the genocide, subjection, ethnic cleansing and human rights violations in modern history, and have sponsored, armed and financed untold numbers of dictators and despots. Between them, they have worshipped, almost deified, the cult of violence and war. For all its appalling sins, the Taliban just isn't in the same league.'
posted by asok at 5:12 AM on October 25, 2001

Every life lost has to be multiplied by all the people who suffer that loss.

A case in point: The dead employees at one World Trade Center company, Cantor-Fitzgerald, leave behind 1,500 children.

its estimated that between 6 & 7 million afghanistan citizens *will* die in the next few weeks.

Source? These Pioneer Planet and Orlando Sentinel stories have estimates substantially lower than that.
posted by rcade at 5:51 AM on October 25, 2001

Body counts are the bullshit of all human tragedies. What does it really add?
posted by BentPenguin at 6:57 AM on October 25, 2001

yes rcade that was incorrect. 6-7 million are without humanitarian aid (i.e. food). So the estimated loss of life resulting from american insurgency is somewhere between 2-3.5 million. sorry. The source is a transcript of the Chomsky lecture at MIT October 18, 2001.

"The reason these people will die is not all attributable to the U.S. Government. In fact, I would wage that very few of them will be the result of our actions. The simple fact of the matter is that millions of them would die this winter anyway."

No actually there is this organization called The World Food Bank which offers humanitarian aid (i.e. food) to afghanistan citizens whom (are and have been for some time) starving to death. You see, the country has been ravaged by war for two decades. International humanitarian organizations have been supplying food and some medicine for a while now. I agree that it seems the Taliban gov't is brutal and unsympathetic. However they (the taliban) enabled the aid to be deployed. Why has the aid all but stopped?

"Their own "government" does not help them. They do not provide for the needy, and many people will starve or freeze to death because of it."

this might be true. However, for the sake of speculation only, I would ask you if the jewish citizens of Nazi Germany deserved their fate, being that they were German?
There is also this UN thing called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights It might not mean much to americans as the US government doesn't recognize the jurisdiction of international institutions, but some think it's nice.

Watch who you blame. Had the Taliban government not been harboring Usama Bin Laden, none of these attacks would be happening.

I think thats not the real issue here. this war is about palestine and Israels occupation of it. Oh and did I mention that Israel is entirely without limitation or diminution sponsored by the USA ( billions in armament).
posted by slappy at 7:43 AM on October 25, 2001

Another question that remains to be officially answered is what country did
the dead or missing come from?

There is speculation that the WTC non-us death toll outnumbers American. Not that this makes much of a difference, but it helps support a world-wide effort to fight terrorism. More British people where killed in the attack than any attack that ever took place on British soil. Does anybody know the official numbers and if not why is there no offical word?

As far as the smell here in NYC goes it all depends on the way the wind blows. I live over 100 blocks north of the site and I can smell it on some days. I work just half a mile from the site and on some days I smell it in the office. I can smell it everyday in the subway as it passes near ground zero.

posted by chainring at 7:58 AM on October 25, 2001

"No man is an Island, entire of it self; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main; if a Clod be washed away by the Sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a Promontory were, as well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. " -- John Donne
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:02 AM on October 25, 2001

Wow, and all along I thought the reason Afghan people were starving is because of a severe drought that has plagued the region. Show's what I know....

I saw a reference to Nazi Germany somewhere above. Let's invoke Godwin's Law and kill this thread before it gets more ridiculous.
posted by JohnBigBoots at 8:39 AM on October 25, 2001

I remember Rudy's quote from the day of (or maybe day after) the attacks. He didn't want to guess at a number, but said simply it would be, "more than any of us can bear". That still rings true.
posted by msacheson at 9:05 AM on October 25, 2001

Geez. Who set the background color to white? Oh yeah, that would be chainring.
posted by kindall at 9:11 AM on October 25, 2001

slappy: The Taliban may provide for the safety and survival of their people, for whom as a government they are morally responsible, by acceding to international law and turning over Osama bin Laden, who was indicted by the United States in 1999 and for whom the Taliban have chosen to endure two years of international sanctions based on a United Nations resolution. They are not a sovereign, recognized government, and they are demonstrating that they are cruel and indifferent to the fate of their own people. They're hiding artillery in residential neighborhoods and mosques, for God's sake. They want us to inflict civilian casualties so they can win a God-damned propaganda war.

Israel and Palestine? You're buying into bin Laden's propaganda, slappy my addle-brained friend. He wants more than anything to topple the hated régime in Riyadh. Arafat's rump state is mere afterthought, and it helps rally the cause. If he hates Israel so much, how come he isn't crashing jet planes in Tel Aviv?
posted by dhartung at 9:29 AM on October 25, 2001

For those interested the smell is still there.

and boy, is it! I work around Union Square and whenver the wind is blowing out of the south (or west, to a lesser extent) I smell it here very strongly. At home (uptown), I can still smelll it when the wind blows northwards. It's not as bad as it was the first week, but there's still lots of nasty stuff burning in the fires down there....

But it's not just the bad stuff in the air (though that's a big problem), it's that the smell represents loss. THe loss of life, the loss of a landmark, the loss of our feelings of security. And even after the smell is gone (which probably won't be until sometime next year), the loss will still be here...

then all the respiratory problems will start...
posted by andrewraff at 9:39 AM on October 25, 2001

Even one death is too many. Son's Decade-Long Quest Ends in the Rubble (NYT). Heartbreaking story of death's impact on one man seeking his father.
posted by Carol Anne at 9:53 AM on October 25, 2001

Thanks, Carol Anne. Good story that leaves me reflective of how very, very fortunate I am.
posted by msacheson at 10:05 AM on October 25, 2001

What I would like to see is some numbers on those injured? Do we simply discount those people? What about the thousands of people that breathed in that concoction of concrete and asbestos dust? These people and their families are also the victims of this crime! I would bet that in the years to come the number of deaths caused by this crime will rise.
posted by Sal Amander at 12:14 PM on October 25, 2001

It's unfortunate that almost all responses implicity assume or assent to the assumption that a lower number is better, because it plays into how we inidvidually respond or feel, or even how the government responds.

The attack of the WTC was massive by any scale. It was, I would argue, inexperiencably massive, you can't ever really find meaning in what we all witnessed, heard and saw repeated over and over.

Imagine you saw a person run over by a truck---actually saw them die suddenly. (I don't mean to be gruesome, please bear with.) You could, in a sense, emotionally and intellectually understand that "That person I saw just died." Without recourse to any abstraction to speak of, you could appreciate that a "life" had been ended.

In a sense, you cannot do that with WTC. You have to abstract it to the level of numbers. A certain numerodiscursive trick offered above (multiply any number by 10 to understand how bad it is), i've heard this brought up in casual conversation as a self-evident truth, as if a bigger number brings one closer to understanding. This only exacerbates the problem in the oft-quoted "Five thousand"--we accept "five thousand" in place of actual understanding, just as we accepted a picture of a giant yellow ball issuing from the south tower, in place of the feeling one might have if one witnessed a single person dying. You accept and you paint a placard that says "No more war" or you buy a t-shirt that says "God bless America."

This applies to the problem of management of the disaster too. There ws no template for FEMA, the Mayor's Office, the Red Cross, etc. to act on in New York City. How do know how much money to ask for? How do know how many body bags to ask for? How many fire trucks do you have to replace? How many phone lines? How much internet traffic is stalled? How much will the insurance company pay? Pretty soon you are dealing with multiple sources of numerical information. The article gives a brief peek at the production of estimates of inestimables.
posted by rschram at 4:02 PM on October 25, 2001

For what it's worth, NY Times have been questioning the 5,000+ casualty figure since, as early as Sept. 16th. They ran a floor by floor casualty head count in p. A10 on Sept. 16th that added up to only 1792 WTC workers. (I could not find the charts on their website, but I cited this in a previous thread.)
posted by tamim at 6:51 PM on October 25, 2001

To take a tangent on what rschram said,

It's unfortunate that almost all responses implicity assume or assent to the assumption that a lower number is better...

The number we give for casualties is relevant in terms of history, but it is irrelevant in terms of who actually died. Saying that 4000 died instead of 5000 will not bring 4000 people to life any more than saying 6000 are dead will kill 1000 people.

The issue is not the numbers. The issue is that people died. Life is not the sort of thing that can be tallied up to gain a value.
posted by chiheisen at 7:31 PM on October 25, 2001

The issue is not the numbers. The issue is that people died. Life is not the sort of thing that can be tallied up to gain a value.

Actually, the ultimate issue is the potential deathcount from this madman and his buddies. We wouldn't be so vigorously in Afghanistan, with Iraq next, if it was just the WTC and Pentagon. As I mentioned on Metatalk, I already have fears of bright flashes from some shipping container.

PS: F' Chomsky.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:40 PM on October 25, 2001

p.p.s. F' you & :P have a nice day
posted by slappy at 12:32 AM on October 26, 2001