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Misogyny in comedy
December 13, 2012 11:10 AM   Subscribe

On misogyny in comedy: Why women are a "problem".
posted by custard heart (39 comments total) 15 users marked this as a favorite

 
As a fan of comedy, I see a lot of the things the author describes. There's always an essay by a mid-range male comic that comes out every six months saying Women aren't funny or some such nonsense and this debate gets restarted again.

I think she's right that top male comics are fine and those working a lot are ok too, but the lackluster small town comic at open mics and small bars will feel pinched by competition and lash out at women because of it.

Of course women don't deserve any of it, and I'm really glad to see more and more women stand-ups these days (about half of the stand ups I go out and pay money to see are women), a bunch of guys telling shitty jokes about masturbation and self-hatred gets really old and it's why I don't go to comedy clubs that often unless it's someone I really love (like Maria Bamford, Jackie Kashian, Tig Nataro, etc)
posted by mathowie at 11:25 AM on December 13, 2012 [10 favorites]


This is an odd essay. The author doesn't really establish what problem she is complaining about before launching into her opinions. Apparently she has raised hackles on Toronto's comedy scene by complaining about misogyny in the scene? It would have been great had she linked to previous blog posts or stories online that set the scene.

As it stands this feels like either axe grinding about a conflict she has with some unnamed individuals -- blown up to be a part of some global comedy problem -- or an unfocused attack on an army of straw men.

Here in Portland, I don't see much sign of misogyny, though it would be great to hear from some women comics of course. Mary Rae Kim books Helium, the best club. Stacey Hallal owns Curious Comedy, the hot improv/comedy club, and features at Helium (a rare honor for a local comic at this world class club.) Whitney Streed is one of the best connected and loved comics in town. Maria Bamford, Jackie Kashian, and Tig Nataro all headline here frequently and are crowd favorites. Etc. Etc.
posted by msalt at 11:46 AM on December 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


Yep, women aren't funny, blacks aren't as smart as whites, jews are stingy, Mexicans are lazy...

All well-established facts, defended vigorously by those with the most to lose from open competition for resources. And the hateful. A point she draws out pretty well. Kudos for her recognition that it isn't "men" that are complaining about women in comedy; it's some men.

The irony is that, whenever a power shift occurs, the break-through leaders almost have to be far above-average (Dr. George Washington Carver, Jackie Robinson, Harvey Milk...). Thus, for more-or-less every Milton Berle there's a Lucille Ball, but there weren't really any female Joey Bishops - he's too mediocre; a woman at his talent level is better off trying her luck somewhere easier. So: more women (at first) doesn't equal fewer jobs for the least secure men, but more competition in the top half of the game. At first. Eventually, the field flattens, and everyone gets a chance to prove merit.
posted by IAmBroom at 11:49 AM on December 13, 2012


The thing about misogyny is that you tend not to see it unless you are on the receiving end of it. Like the author says (confession: I know her and produce a show with her), " Just because you do something racist or misogynist doesn’t mean you even intended to - much of systemic oppression stems from larger frameworks that the individuals involved don’t even see, that they go along with unwittingly." So yeah, you probably don't see a lot of misogyny because it is subtle.
posted by Felicity Rilke at 11:58 AM on December 13, 2012 [4 favorites]


The author doesn't really establish what problem she is complaining about before launching into her opinions

Yeah, I wish she would have linked to some previous stories or blog posts about Toronto-specific stuff, but I've heard this whole "women are a problem in comedy, they aren't funny, etc" nonsense every so often. A bunch of years ago Jerry Lewis famously said it. Then Adam Corrolla said it this year.
posted by mathowie at 11:59 AM on December 13, 2012 [2 favorites]


Not that I know anything about comedy, but I'm not sure I buy the notion that comedy is a zero-sum game. Sure, that may be true for stage time at the local bar, but if women comics attract a female audience that wasn't watching before, then the fan base increases. With new fans come new dollars.
posted by sfred at 12:02 PM on December 13, 2012 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I wish she would have linked to some previous stories or blog posts about Toronto-specific stuff, but I've heard this whole "women are a problem in comedy, they aren't funny, etc" nonsense every so often.

Seems like one of those things that you hear coming up somewhere from time to time, but not a tenth as often as you hear people complaining about it.
posted by kafziel at 12:03 PM on December 13, 2012 [2 favorites]


Felicity Rilke, are you familiar with the scene she's talking about? Can you tell us more about that situation?

Cause I'll tell you right now, any comic male or female who said that women weren't funny would be ridden out of Portland on a rail.
posted by msalt at 12:11 PM on December 13, 2012


Yep, women aren't funny, blacks aren't as smart as whites, jews are stingy, Mexicans are lazy...

...and white men are all hateful assholes. Settled.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:21 PM on December 13, 2012


As it stands this feels like either axe grinding about a conflict she has with some unnamed individuals -- blown up to be a part of some global comedy problem -- or an unfocused attack on an army of straw men.

Msalt, I agree that it would have been good to have more context (the post felt a little bit like walking into a conversation that was already happening).

BUT please be aware that this is the kind of thing that women, people of color, gay people, etc. ALWAYS here whenever they/we face sexism/racism/homophobia. There's always someone who wants to make it a personal problem, rather than cultural/societal issue. Which often ends up putting the blame on the victim and allows cultures/organizations pretend there's no larger problem.
posted by lunasol at 12:26 PM on December 13, 2012 [9 favorites]


...and white men are all hateful assholes.

Speaking as a white man, this is correct.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:29 PM on December 13, 2012 [10 favorites]


I'm not involved in the stand-up world. I don't really feel like I can speak directly to what Catherine is talking about, but I can address it a bit.

First of all, this isn't an issue of people saying women aren't funny (I mean, that is sometimes part of it, but it isn't the whole story). It's that when you walk into a space and you look around and say This doesn't represent my world and you ask a promoter why there aren't more women/people of colour/LGBTQ performers and the promoter says, Because they don't ask to be on the show, and you say, Hmm, maybe we should look at why that might be? and you're told there is no problem.

It's tweets like this and this. It's being accused of being shrill when you point out a lack of diversity. It's having problem with booking venues because most people who run venues are men and they don't take you seriously as a woman producer (speaking from experience). It's the comments that happen behind your back, the people who tell you that you're too sensitive, it is having to fight for space ALL THE FUCKING TIME, and to fight 100 times harder for it.

People seem to think that misogyny in performance/comedy is about saying women aren't funny. It isn't. It's about not taking them seriously, about dismissing their concerns, about calling them rape victims/man-haters/bitches/sluts/etc. instead of having an actual discussion. It's calling an airing of real, actual grievances "ax-grinding". You know why there isn't more specific examples in the post? Because most of those examples happen via email, at shows, on facebook, in conversations. It's just life. And a lot of women won't speak up about it because speaking up means being attacked instead of listened to.
posted by Felicity Rilke at 12:37 PM on December 13, 2012 [22 favorites]


lunasol: I hear you. I only know the Portland comedy scene in any depth, but I can say that the author's comments don't connect with my experience here.

In this particular discussion, with so many of the hottest current comedians being female, I think there's also a risk of taking the occasional outlier (Adam Corolla, Jerry Lewis) as representative of more than it really means. Any person who wants to say women aren't funny is guaranteed a ton of publicity, which is very tempting for any fading celebrity.
posted by msalt at 12:39 PM on December 13, 2012


Seems like one of those things that you hear coming up somewhere from time to time, but not a tenth as often as you hear people complaining about it.


That's inherently true of any situation like this. Unless you're part of the group that experiences the problem, you will only know about it when members of that group complain about it in the larger media (or when, occasionally, somebody famous says something extremely overt that gets picked up broadly).

I'm not a working female comedian, so I don't know first-hand whether at some clubs women are passed over for bookings in favor of equally or less talented men. Or whether there's a significant population of male comedians out there just giving female comedians a lot of hateful, misogynist shit backstage. So when women who are working comedians say these problems exist, and that they're significant, I'm inclined to believe there might be a problem (again, not knowing for sure), rather than deciding in the absence of any experience that they're making mountains out of molehills.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 12:40 PM on December 13, 2012 [4 favorites]


the post felt a little bit like walking into a conversation that was already happening

From what I've been able to piece together while trying to figure out who the author was, it sort of seems like this is in part a response to an asshole - one of the creeps Felicity Rilke linked to above - who was making a stink about being 'excluded' from a comedy showcase. That's not to say her points are invalid or this is just cover for a personal beef, just that I also got the feeling that I walked into the middle part of the movie and was wanting more background.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:49 PM on December 13, 2012 [2 favorites]


Felicity Rilke, I wonder if you might invite the author to join this discussion? It would be great to hear from her directly.
posted by msalt at 12:53 PM on December 13, 2012


I only know the Portland comedy scene in any depth

Portland is an outlier in many social issue type things so it doesn't strain credibility to believe that they may have less of a sexism-in-comedy problem as well.

I just saw Chelsea Peretti headlining at a small local comedy club here in New England and it was sort of weird to go to see her and her particular brand of humor but have to sit through an opener and a middle guy who were just dick-dick-dick-anal-dick jokes. Not a huge deal, but sort of weird. It seems like this woman is talking more about the difficulties she was having being a mouthy opinionated female comedian in the scene generally, like not just the assholes who were jerks (hey they are all over the place) but what she perceived as the lack of support from people who were her allies but who could fade into the "normal" background by not being fat, female, queer, whatever.

I often wonder about that since I listen to Marc Maron's podcast a lot and he's not super great at managing the gender thing (he has significantly fewer female comedians on his podcast and almost never has a female non-comedian on the way he does with men) and wondering how much that reflects larger industry stuff or just his own weird personality.
posted by jessamyn at 12:56 PM on December 13, 2012 [10 favorites]


Yeah, I wish she would have linked to some previous stories or blog posts about Toronto-specific stuff

On the other Toronto-specific hand, I thought I should mention there's an all-female comedy night every month at the Free Times, called Chicka Boom. They're variably political about it -- the tone there can be anywhere from stridently feminist to I-just-happen-to-be-female-and-what's-the-deal-with-airline-food. Depends on the night. The acts they book are generally fantastic. The people who attend probably aren't the kind of people who would buy the "women aren't funny" trope to begin with, but even then it seems good to have the experience of a full slate of funny ladies to drive the point home.

Anyway I highly recommend it to comedy fans of any and all genders. They have decent drink specials and excellent latkes.

(Disclaimer: a friend of mine is among the organizers. Also I'm neither a woman nor a comedian, so feel free to take what I say with a grain of don't-know-what-I'm-talking-about.)
posted by saturday_morning at 1:03 PM on December 13, 2012 [4 favorites]


Mark, not to bag on you, but I'm thinking of an exchange I had with a friend from Portland when I was griping about having a hard time finding vegetarian food in Lansing, Mi. He was all like, "It's so easy!" And I had to be, "Dude, you're in Portland. People there debate over whether honey is vegan. In Lansing, people are still debating whether chicken counts as meat."
posted by klangklangston at 1:08 PM on December 13, 2012 [25 favorites]


No, that's totally fair. I have no idea about Toronto, though I would have guessed it's fairly progressive too.

Comedy is a very individual and very local business, aside from TV, and it's all you, so it's hard not to take things personally. The author says she has only been doing comedy for 2 years, though she seems pretty successful (turning down paid bookings). I've been trying hard to note the limits of my personal data (been doing this 12 years in SF and PDX, traveled around a bit). I guess I wish the author would have done more of that too.
posted by msalt at 1:19 PM on December 13, 2012


I've also stopped doing comedy here in Toronto, in part because of how awful it can be to deal with some members of the community here. The blog post linked here is very much part of an ongoing conversation/argument/shouting-down-of-women-voices-by-straight-white-men that's been happening in certain parts of the Toronto comedy scene. Of course, the post also has valid points about comedy in general.

I don't know if it's something about men in comedy, or something about the men in comedy that spend their time being vocal about this particular issue, but there's a huge resistance to the idea of women having a harder time than guys in comedy. I've had way too many arguments with guy comics who hear "women have it hard" and translate it into "men have it easy". There's a lot of pride involved in performing comedy, and a lot of people feel like their efforts and skills would be delegitimized by acknowledging that they don't face obstacles that other people do.

I should also note that there are a lot of amazing comics, both male and female, in this city (which I am lucky to be a guest of). I get bummed that so much of my (and others') experience of the comedy community here has been soured by a bunch of guys who list "mens rights" as their chief interest on Facebook.
posted by aedison at 2:14 PM on December 13, 2012 [7 favorites]


I am a woman, thought about doing comedy, was completely turned off by the misogyny of the 1980s Boston comedy scene, only recently started becoming part of the Boston comedy audience, am still turned off a bit by sexism but sexism is a great leap forward from the outright "chicks aren't funny, show us your tits" bullshit of the 1980s.

msalt, would love to hear from some of your female colleagues on the Portland scene who might have some insight into what works there. I don't know how buying other people accounts works, but if you have some people in mind who might be interested, I'd be glad to pony up for them.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:34 PM on December 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


Cool. I've invited a few local women comics to join us here (and also offered to pay their fees.)
posted by msalt at 3:14 PM on December 13, 2012 [3 favorites]


> Marc Maron... almost never has a female non-comedian

I read that as never, so got all het up, but
1) you said "almost never"
2) Mary Mack, who played a lot of music & talked more about growing up in rural Wisconsin than comedy, turns out to be a stand-up. [awesome interview, however!]
3) Jillian Lauren is an author, not a comedian, but you said "almost never', so <rosannadanna>never mind. That's only 1.5 that I can come up with....
posted by morganw at 5:22 PM on December 13, 2012


The more women in comedy, the less men there will be.

They want our jobs!
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:45 PM on December 13, 2012


I totally agree with sfred. If you have more great comics, more people will go to shows, so more jobs. Portland's scene has exploded since 2005, when there was literally one club (Harvey's) and 2 open mics. Not a single showcase. Why? More funny people.
posted by msalt at 7:20 PM on December 13, 2012


he has significantly fewer female comedians on his podcast

There are significantly fewer female comedians, you realize this right?
posted by Cosine at 8:32 PM on December 13, 2012


In part because there are significantly fewer female comedians who are represented in the comedy world. Start balancing out the gender representation and you'll have more female comedians. It's not like there is such a paucity of female comedians that Maron couldn't find more to have on his podcast.
posted by Felicity Rilke at 8:38 PM on December 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


you realize this right?

Yes, I realize that. However he also has non-comedians on his podcast quite frequently, various famous people in bands or whatever and except for a few notable exceptions (that morganw outlined above, over 300+ podcasts) he has never had a female non-comedian on. And he's just a guy with a podcast, no reason he has to make this a thing he cares about or tries to mitigate personally. But decisions like his, multiplied over dozens of people with popular podcasts, or clubs, or whatever opportunities, can affect how the culture is seen from both the inside and the outside.

Places that seem to make more of an effort to have a balanced set of performers (Montreal notably, but you see it more in other comedy festivals in other countries) seem to be able to do fine and it's been cool to watch Comedy Central make a visible effort over the past few years to have more women with half hour specials but to have comedians from different backgrounds than the usual young white man actually hosting and running shows. People may or may not like Key and Peele (and neither of them are women) but their show is popular and it's a welcome change from the Tosh.0 stuff which is what I see a lot as "industry standard" easy jokes which come at the expense of easy targets.
posted by jessamyn at 8:40 PM on December 13, 2012 [8 favorites]


Another comedy podcast, Totally Laime, has a ton of female guests. Granted, most are from the improv/TV writing crowd rather than standup, but if Marc Maron really wanted to expand his base of guests, there are plenty of women to choose from.

Comedy in general is known to be pretty sexist. Earlier female comics like Phyllis Diller, Lucille Ball, or Joan Rivers often had to use self-deprecation as a tool for getting around the resistance of audiences and fellow comedians (and it's still a recurring trope in female comedy, just as it is in female discourse more broadly). If you read or watch interviews with people like Janeane Garofalo or Tina Fey, they had to fight a whole lot of prejudice, scorn, and objectification to get recognition.
posted by Superplin at 9:38 PM on December 13, 2012 [1 favorite]


Another comedy podcast, Totally Laime, has a ton of female guests. Granted, most are from the improv/TV writing crowd rather than standup, but if Marc Maron really wanted to expand his base of guests, there are plenty of women to choose from.

Yeah, you're right, he should completely change the focus of the podcast to fit the demographics you want to hear.
posted by kafziel at 12:19 AM on December 14, 2012 [1 favorite]


Comedy in general is known to be pretty sexist.

Um, that's a pretty broad brush you got there.

Earlier female comics like Phyllis Diller, Lucille Ball, or Joan Rivers often had to use self-deprecation as a tool for getting around the resistance of audiences and fellow comedians (and it's still a recurring trope in female comedy, just as it is in female discourse more broadly).

Phyllis Diller began her career in 1952. Lucille Ball started in 1929. Joan Rivers is the newcomer, starting in the late 1950s (playing a lesbian with a crush on a then-unknown Barbara Streisand). People who began their career 60-90 years ago are probably not the greatest data points for misogyny in comedy today.

Garofalo (late 80s) and Fey (early 90s) are more to the point. But it's hard not to compare their careers to those first three and note the dramatic progress for women in the industry.
posted by msalt at 2:10 AM on December 14, 2012


Spouse of a comedian here. There are lots of shows that he tells me not to come to because so many of his fellow comics are misogynist, racist, and homophobic assholes and I would not enjoy myself. He has strongly embraced the "punch up, not down" ethos, and he is much more funny and a much better writer for not using the easiest, cheapest, shittiest jokes he can find.

Of course there are still audiences that do not welcome woman comics. Of course there are rooms that do not welcome women comics. Of course there are hosts who never schedule women. I've been sitting in little coffee shop open mics where all the comics in the room got up and walked out when a new person went up. It's even hard for him as a straight, white, male comic who refuses to tell those sorts of jokes; there are some rooms he cannot play because the audience there want to hear some "the difference between men and women is" and "have you ever noticed how black people" jokes.

I'm sure that it's better than it used to be (i.e., "women aren't funny show us your tits"), but comedy largely remains an ugly, gross world in which many audiences revel in despicable hate, and where heckling and at times being very threatening towards comics is condoned, especially towards women. And their fellow comedians condone and frequently engage in such behavior themselves.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:11 AM on December 14, 2012


My perception is that comedians tend to have more "issues" than most other people (no offense, Sidhedevil) and so when their nasty side comes out, it tends to have a more vicious edge to it. I would absolutely believe that there is a lot of misogyny in the industry. I also think that the author nailed her diagnosis - the root of the problem is fear of being displaced.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 6:14 AM on December 14, 2012


kafziel: "Another comedy podcast, Totally Laime, has a ton of female guests. Granted, most are from the improv/TV writing crowd rather than standup, but if Marc Maron really wanted to expand his base of guests, there are plenty of women to choose from.

Yeah, you're right, he should completely change the focus of the podcast to fit the demographics you want to hear.
"

I'm not asking him to change anything. He already brings in a lot of people who work in comedy more broadly, outside of standup--but they're almost always men. There's definitely a "boys' club" mentality in a lot of comedy.

msalt: "Phyllis Diller began her career in 1952. Lucille Ball started in 1929. Joan Rivers is the newcomer, starting in the late 1950s (playing a lesbian with a crush on a then-unknown Barbara Streisand). People who began their career 60-90 years ago are probably not the greatest data points for misogyny in comedy today.

Garofalo (late 80s) and Fey (early 90s) are more to the point. But it's hard not to compare their careers to those first three and note the dramatic progress for women in the industry.
"

I was giving a historical perspective. Comedy has been a rough business for women to break into since the beginning, and it's actually not all that much easier now than it was back when those ladies began. And saying that there are more women in comedy now than 60-80 years ago doesn't mean that we've overcome systemic misogyny, time to move on. As I mentioned, those women struggled mightily to gain respect. All comics do, but women in the industry have an extra set of hurdles, as others have pointed out.
posted by Superplin at 7:13 AM on December 14, 2012 [2 favorites]


Yeah, you're right, he should completely change the focus of the podcast to fit the demographics you want to hear.

Not what I said.

I'll be happy to talk to you more about why I think it's important that we have more women's voices in all sorts of different places and strategies and ideas for making that happen because it's something that's important to me.

I've been crystal clear that Maron can do what he wants with his podcast. At the same time individual choices by individual people are what add up to a collective culture that reflects what we put into it.

when their nasty side comes out, it tends to have a more vicious edge to it.

I think this argument extends to include any sort of edgy humor which often comes at the expense of people who are already marginalized. When people can do edgy right, it's often pretty terrific, but when edgy goes wrong it's a lot worse than "airplane food amirite?" and I think this is extra true when you're a comedian coming at a set of cultural touchstone topics from an angle that is different from the angle your audience comes at it from. Tricky, not impossible, but I'd also argue worthwhile.
posted by jessamyn at 7:50 AM on December 14, 2012 [4 favorites]


Wow, I guess I must travel in some pretty rarefied circles because in my experience, that really nasty stuff is pretty rare, and likely to be called out. And while I am based in Portland, I do a lot of shows in Idaho, Montana, Nevada etc. so it's not a southeast Portland preciousness I'm talking about. Aside from dumb stereotyping, which is rampant among weaker comics, I see more homophobia than anything, followed by mild racism, with misogyny a distant third. The audience is half or more female pretty much everywhere you go, so there's no profit in it.

Open mics are the worst, in any city including Portland. I never invite friends and often avoid them myself as much as possible. I think a lot of the stereotypes of damaged individuals tearing each other down, etc. come from that scene. Among comics who are paid, though, across the West anyway comedians are one of the smartest, nicest and -- yes -- well adjusted groups of people I know. Maybe a bit obsessive. I don't hang out with that many yoga instructors and river rafting guides, I supposed they're better rounded.
posted by msalt at 2:00 PM on December 14, 2012


superplin: I was giving a historical perspective. Comedy has been a rough business for women to break into since the beginning, and it's actually not all that much easier now than it was back when those ladies began [in the 1950s].

Well, that's kind of the question, isn't it? You're assuming it's just as hard.

And saying that there are more women in comedy now than 60-80 years ago doesn't mean that we've overcome systemic misogyny, time to move on.

Wow, that's a huge leap in logic right there. No one's saying that. The question is, how much harder is it for women to get into comedy today, than men? And what can be done about it?

This topic started with an essay by a woman who is quitting after two years, though she's turning down paying gigs. It took me a year and a half to get my first paying gig (and I did a couple hundred sets during that time). Maybe she's just much funnier than me, but without more information on the situation she faced, I don't think she's really made her case.
posted by msalt at 2:10 PM on December 14, 2012


I am a comic. A professional touring, working comic. I produce shows as well. This is my .02

I agree, some dudes don't book chicks. There are plenty of all male showcases. But a lot of dudes like women comics. At least in my experience. Do I have a harder time in comedy because I own a vagina? Maybe. Do I have a harder time because I'm not fucking my way to the top? Maybe. But I also don't know what it's like to be a straight white dude and swim in a sea of straight white dudes. And she IS right that the mediocre white dude is falling to the wayside comically because people are starting to recognize mediocre. Although I did take exception to her dad joke slam. I like dad jokes. I don't even know my dad and I like a good dad joke.

Had I read that before I became a comic, I don't know if I would have. What a vitriolic piece. Yes, there is sexism EVERYWHERE. Sometimes men are douchebags. But dudes have been part of the reason I DO get paid (that made me sound like a hooker) and have helped me in all aspects of my comedy. And I'm hardly fucking them to get to the top. Look, I'm a dyke (mostly) and a feminist and I have women, gays, blacks etc on my shows. I have all gay shows, I have been on all black shows (I think it's my ass). I've been all over the country and not once has someone confronted me in that manner, so either she's inviting confrontation, or Toronto comics are more confrontational then any other comics ever in the history of the world.


Yes, men silence women and don't listen to them and put down women's opinions. And that's everywhere. All over. So to single out and then blame them for making you quit comedy? I can't make you quit something you love. I agree with Katt Willams (pre drugs), fuck the haters. If you're a *real* feminist you fight. Or you whine on your damned blog and quit something you love because the people on the playground wouldn't let you play.


Do I think she's totally wrong? No. I think that some women including me get labelled a bitch because they take what they want and it's par for the course that guys take what they want. I think that is why there are few women show producers. But who gives a shit what some asshole mediocre comics think (as she's asserted that's who is giving her flack)? Will they get you work or stop you from getting work? No? Then don't stress out about it.

But I think her blaming all the guys for her dropping out of comedy or her 'not being able to leave the house' because of criticism is kinda dramatic. I mean, seriously? Comedy is the ballsiest (ovary-iest?) thing you can do. Even the president only gets 50% of the vote.
posted by Femmegrrrl at 12:00 AM on December 15, 2012 [1 favorite]


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