Join 3,554 readers in helping fund MetaFilter (Hide)


We should keep going and see how many titans we can lose in ten minutes
July 10, 2013 9:51 AM   Subscribe

How does your EVE Online alliance top losing 400 billion ISK to corporate espionage? Why, by losing 309 billion ISK on a single ship of course!

The destroyed Revenant Supercarrier was one of only three in existence, and was worth about $8,000 USD.
posted by Gin and Comics (161 comments total) 26 users marked this as a favorite

 
No matter how many EVE articles I read on MeFi, I still think Icelandic Krona whenever I see ISK. That is all.
posted by nathancaswell at 9:53 AM on July 10, 2013 [9 favorites]


If I remember right, the game's backstory pits the shattered remnants of the Global Icelandic Empire against each other.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:54 AM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


Well, shit.
posted by nathancaswell at 9:58 AM on July 10, 2013


I have never played EVE and never will, but God do I love these posts.
posted by lalex at 10:00 AM on July 10, 2013 [48 favorites]


It's getting sort of old to see these breathless headlines about the destruction of ship X in EVE that was worth Y dollars.

I mean, it's factually true, but in the same way that "Boston government destroys $20,000 in fireworks" is a technically accurate story. Much like fireworks, these ships ultimately exist to be destroyed for players' amusement. The only major difference is that they're trying to set off one another's fireworks.
posted by explosion at 10:00 AM on July 10, 2013 [28 favorites]


YES YES YES EVE THREAD
SPIN YOUR STORIES OF SPACE ESPIONAGE PLEASE
I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR GAMING BUT I LOVE HEARING OF SKULLDUGGERY
posted by Greg Nog at 10:02 AM on July 10, 2013 [43 favorites]


Greg Nog: "I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR GAMING BUT I LOVE HEARING OF SKULLDUGGERY"

well i have some dwarf fortress hijinks that should enthrall you then.
posted by boo_radley at 10:04 AM on July 10, 2013 [10 favorites]


EVE is what would have happened if Hunter S. Thompson had a spaceship.
posted by delfin at 10:06 AM on July 10, 2013 [15 favorites]


This sort of backstabbing will continue because you cannot actually arrest and imprison anyone in the game. So it will be a less than real simulation.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:09 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


If you're interested, you can join mefi's own Plate of Beans Incorporated in game. We don't do much skullduggery beyond gate camping but we do have a nice wormhole system and our fearless leader often leads us to glorious and fiery deaths in PvP.
posted by MillMan at 10:11 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Lamest motivation for warfare espionage ever. Dude was bored and "wanted to be known for something.". One thing that makes Eve so interesting is that most of its players take it seriously. Well not entirely of course, and the whole point of GoonSwarm is to be obnoxious anarchists, but in general there's this implicit social contract that the game is played for reasons. Even if your reason is to be a dastardly, clever thief or spy. This sounds like some kid just got bored one day and decided to fuck with his former friends. Boring.
posted by Nelson at 10:11 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Frankly, no EVE story can be schadenfreudic enough for me. I have had my appetite wetted; I demand that EVE's makers install webcam software that shows the sad, despondent lives of the broken players. Sort of a cross between Dostoevsky and Barney Gumble's black and white film
posted by The River Ivel at 10:12 AM on July 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


Language and content may be violatle and offensive, and the rest will be hard to comprehend if you don't play at their level (I don't even and I've been playing for a while) but here's an audio capture of the fleet chat after this went down. One of the main guys rages out pretty solidly. I don't know the politics beyond that it was a setup job and people are kinda confused, or were at that point.

Enjoy, keep your volume at reasonable levels for your ear's sake.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:13 AM on July 10, 2013


"Boston government destroys $20,000 in fireworks" is a technically accurate story. Much like fireworks, these ships ultimately exist to be destroyed for players' amusement. The only major difference is that they're trying to set off one another's fireworks.
posted by explosion


Epony
posted by nathancaswell at 10:14 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


We don't do much skullduggery beyond gate camping but we do have a nice wormhole system and our fearless leader often leads us to glorious and fiery deaths in PvP.

Oh hi mill!

Btw, since it could stand to be repeated: THE MEFI GROUP PLAYING THE GAME IS NOTHING LIKE THE AUDIO I LINKED. One of our first achievements was spending a few hours as a group to destroy something that was named in a sexually offensive/disparaging fashion. You'll be welcome, you won't be insulted, fun is had by all.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:16 AM on July 10, 2013 [8 favorites]


Woo...Graff, alone, is a good argument for never getting involved in EVE, or anything like it. Damn, dude. It's a gaaaaaaaaammmmmme.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:18 AM on July 10, 2013


Woo...Graff, alone, is a good argument for never getting involved in EVE, or anything like it. Damn, dude. It's a gaaaaaaaaammmmmme.

I'm pretty sure you could find some really angry old ladies on a knitting forum somewhere. It's a matter of picking who you associate yourself with.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:19 AM on July 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


I'm shocked and impressed that EVE hasn't gone F2P yet.
posted by thecjm at 10:20 AM on July 10, 2013


This is so outside of my wheelhouse that I can't even begin to think about how I'd even find out enough to start understanding it, but the fact that there are communities out there that are so very devoted to this gameplay and so involved really makes me happy, for some reason.
posted by xingcat at 10:20 AM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


If the X ship lost for Y amount of $ is getting old to you, the voice recording in the second link is a fun look at an interesting dichotomy in the game. Graff gets pretty upset about the loss, but Jeffraider is very calm about the whole thing, and just wants to bug off and play another video game for a while. When I played those two camps were always there (I was in the latter), and it was always really awkward when we lost a bad battle and just wanted to go play Battlefield to make it better, and some people just wanted to rage.

On a personal note, I've played with Graff and Jeffraider before (though I doubt they'd remember me) and I'm sure Graff is over it by now. The Pandemic Legion guys are all pretty cool.
posted by DynamiteToast at 10:22 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


The EVE universe is already pretty Libertarian and I would like to see it migrate to being more and more so. Unfortunately it would quickly become unplayable and the lesson would likely be lost.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:22 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


If the X ship lost for Y amount of $ is getting old to you, the voice recording in the first article is a fun look at an interesting dichotomy in the game. Graff gets pretty upset about the loss, but Jeffraider is very calm about the whole thing, and just wants to bug off and play another video game for a while. When I played those two camps were always there (I was in the latter), and it was always really awkward when we lost a bad battle and just wanted to go play Battlefield to make it better, and some people just wanted to rage.

I guess this is why it doesn't feel newsworthy to some people. One guy got angry about a video game, but he's over it by now. There have been plenty of traffic disputes of more consequence.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:26 AM on July 10, 2013


The EVE universe is already pretty Libertarian and I would like to see it migrate to being more and more so. Unfortunately it would quickly become unplayable and the lesson would likely be lost.

My brother said the other day that his gaming group wouldn't play EVE because entry-level players are so easily squashed by gigantic megacorporations and their cronies.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:29 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


My brother said the other day that his gaming group wouldn't play EVE because entry-level players are so easily squashed by gigantic megacorporations and their cronies.

You should tell your brother that this isn't the case at all. I am a primary source.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:31 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Dude was bored and "wanted to be known for something.". One thing that makes Eve so interesting is that most of its players take it seriously. Well not entirely of course, and the whole point of GoonSwarm is to be obnoxious anarchists, but in general there's this implicit social contract that the game is played for reasons.

Destruction for the sake of fame is not limited to the online world, nor even to our own time -- the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus (one of the Seven Wonders of the World) was destroyed in 356 BC by an arsonist who did it solely to become famous.
posted by Etrigan at 10:32 AM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


I won't play EVE. Ever. But, if there was a daily or weekly news style show about the EVE universe? Oh god, I'd watch it every day. I'm endlessly fascinated by it.
posted by furnace.heart at 10:32 AM on July 10, 2013 [10 favorites]


The thief had secretly joined Clusterfuck Coalition alliance Circle-of-Two, and been educated in the arts of corporate backstabbery by Goonswarm Logistics Director Xttz - veteran of another memorable Eve disbanding.

WAT
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:41 AM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


I like hearing about this stuff, but at the same time it makes me frustrated, because I know I'll never have the time or attention span to get involved in something like this.

I'll just have to comfort myself with the knowledge that there's probably a me out there in some alternate quantum dimension who does nothing but play the hell out of EVE all the time. Godspeed, shut-in gamer octorok!
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:44 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


No matter how many EVE articles I read on MeFi, I still think Icelandic Krona whenever I see ISK. That is all.

EVE is made in Iceland so it's not a coincidence.

Travelogue: Iceland is one of the best Giant Bomb (sad recent previously) videos and covers EVE Fanfest and lots more.
posted by kmz at 10:45 AM on July 10, 2013


WAT

I think we should cross-comment with the cricket thread and see how long until they get called out for using the wrong lingo.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:45 AM on July 10, 2013 [5 favorites]


You should tell your brother that this isn't the case at all. I am a primary source.

Well, the other objections were that it's too much like a second job and it's just not 'splosion-y enough for their tastes.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:46 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


OMG, Graff's nerdrage is awesome!
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:47 AM on July 10, 2013


Jeff: “No need to totally be super dupe mad. Everyone who lost a ship, I’m sure they feel pretty bad about it. Let’s just go play Chivalry or something. How about that.”

Graff: “Motherfucker, Jeff.”

Jeff: “Sorry, but I’m just not that mad about it. It’s kind of fucked to say and it’s wrong, but I feel kind of giddy ‘cos we just lost the most money in supers that’s ever been lost in the game forever... Don’t be mad, at least be giddy ‘cos you lost a lot of shit fucking quickly. Is that about 50 bil a minute that we lost? ‘Cos that’s really fucking good. Isn’t that nice?”

Graff: “I fucking hate you, asshole.”

Jeff: “We should keep going and see how many titans we can lose in ten minutes, because there’s records to be broken.”
I like Jeff, I like Jeff's attitude, and I want to see more Jeffs out there, being all Jeff and Jeffing around, because Jeff seems like a dude with the right goddamned sort of attitude. Anytime the grar builds up on MeFi, just be like Jeff and say "Let's go play Chivalry or something!"

Graffs, however, seem like they might could use some anger management courses.
posted by barnacles at 10:55 AM on July 10, 2013 [21 favorites]


RolandOfEld: "THE MEFI GROUP PLAYING THE GAME IS NOTHING LIKE THE AUDIO I LINKED"

Well I'm hoping we will be, eventually!

goes back to spreadsheets
posted by vanar sena at 10:57 AM on July 10, 2013


Well, the other objections were that it's too much like a second job and it's just not 'splosion-y enough for their tastes.

You should tell your brother that this is much more plausible. I am a prima.... oh you know.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:57 AM on July 10, 2013


Well, the other objections were that it's too much like a second job and it's just not 'splosion-y enough for their tastes.

You can commit as much or as little time as you want. It's a sandbox game without a point other than what you make of it. "Leveling" is all done on a countdown timer - no grinding on that side - which is why you don't have to commit much time. But yeah, if you're used to the instant gratification of FPS and similar games you won't find eve appealing. That said all the planning and back end work that goes into getting ready for PvP makes it extremely intense when it does happen.
posted by MillMan at 10:59 AM on July 10, 2013


"Boston government destroys $20,000 in fireworks" is a technically accurate story. Much like fireworks, these ships ultimately exist to be destroyed for players' amusement. The only major difference is that they're trying to set off one another's fireworks.
Isn't that a major difference? "Boston government destroys $20,000 in New York government fireworks" would be an awesome story. I imagine the pranksters would be dressed up as Merry and Pippin and in retaliation New York would kidnap Boston's mascot.
posted by roystgnr at 11:08 AM on July 10, 2013 [9 favorites]


A ton of interesting things have been happening in EVE lately.

S2N Citizens rogue director stole 400 billion and dropped sovereignty in 207 systems.

CCP does an accidental node remap that saves 100 TEST capital ships from a CFC fleet.
posted by ryanrs at 11:14 AM on July 10, 2013


Isn't that a major difference? "Boston government destroys $20,000 in New York government fireworks" would be an awesome story

Oh, no doubt about it. It's mostly that the headlines about EVE read as incredulity to me. Halfway between "holy crap vandalism of epic proportions" and "holy crap, these nerds have virtual objects worth this much? What nerds!"

That, and it's sad how commonplace similar losses of higher magnitudes are, and they don't even make the news. Except the losses also include real human lives, because the folks playing at war aren't content to leave it at virtual. Destruction of virtual property is a news story, but real destruction is business as usual. What a strange, sad world we live in.
posted by explosion at 11:15 AM on July 10, 2013


I am heavily involved in the CFC vs. TEST war, so I can answer any questions people may have as long as they don't involve RL money and/or the banking system. Go read a previous EVE thread if you want a rehash of those fairly boring topics.
posted by ryanrs at 11:18 AM on July 10, 2013


Every single EVE thread is a joy.
posted by basicchannel at 11:21 AM on July 10, 2013


I'm pretty sure you could find some really angry old ladies

Get Off My Lawn Alliance was started by real-life old people. They may have been diluted to some extent by younger people, but being angry old people was part of their identity.
posted by ryanrs at 11:23 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


%n: "Greg Nog: "I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR GAMING BUT I LOVE HEARING OF SKULLDUGGERY"

well i have some dwarf fortress hijinks that should enthrall you then
"

yes, please.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 11:30 AM on July 10, 2013


If only our real corporate-overlords were spending billions on space ships, and not private yachts...
posted by blue_beetle at 11:41 AM on July 10, 2013


The spying, counterspying, intelligence-gathering, and gamesmanship in and outside of the game was one of the reasons I stayed with Inselkampf so long (still am, albeit in caretaker mode; just can't let those islands sink). Long live Digg!
posted by schleppo at 11:43 AM on July 10, 2013


Video.
posted by zarq at 11:44 AM on July 10, 2013


Get Off My Lawn Alliance was started by real-life old people.

This makes me so happy.

If only our real corporate-overlords were spending billions on space ships, and not private yachts...

Today fighter jets, tomorrow multiple worlds!
posted by RolandOfEld at 11:44 AM on July 10, 2013


It's getting sort of old to see these breathless headlines about the destruction of ship X in EVE that was worth Y dollars.

I mean, it's factually true, but in the same way that "Boston government destroys $20,000 in fireworks" is a technically accurate story.
I (may) have the same objection, but for a different reason. To me, the ship would be worth $8,000 if it is reasonable to believe it could be sold for $8,000. I don't actually know one way or the other, but: Could this ship have been sold for $8,000?

I always get the feeling that it's more along the lines of "was built using a sum of Eve-o-bucks that, if purchased on the open market all at once as of now, would cost $8,000". If this feeling of mine is accurate, then I furthermore feel that that's quite possibly a very, very different thing than "worth $8,000".
posted by Flunkie at 11:51 AM on July 10, 2013


Can we say it costs $8,000?
posted by jepler at 11:53 AM on July 10, 2013


You can say whatever you want, but yeah, to me, "costs" would sound more reasonable than "is worth".

That is, again, assuming that my feeling that it's unlikely that it could actually be sold for $8,000 is correct.
posted by Flunkie at 11:55 AM on July 10, 2013


Could this ship have been sold for $8,000?

My understanding is that it was bought for 290 billion or so a while back. Don't quote me, but if my number is right then it is a hard number you can attach to this ship, albeit dated.

I always get the feeling that it's more along the lines of "was built using a sum of Eve-o-bucks that, if purchased on the open market all at once as of now, would cost $8,000". If this feeling of mine is accurate,

That's not the case here. If you bought all the materials you needed to build this ship... you couldn't. You can only build it if you have a Blueprint Copy for it. The developers changed the game to remove the place/way to get this Blueprint Copy such that you can't get them and there were never that many (single digits?) copies in the game in the first place. So, it's valuable because it's rare, not because of the minerals/parts it takes to make it.

The ISK equalivent number to $8,000 is based upon what people think it would sell for on the EVE open market. How they're getting those numbers, I don't quite know, but it's a matter of if you want to go with the "cost to manufacture", which isn't valid in this case, or the "price you could hypothetically sell it for", which probably isn't fair either.

Needless to say, it's valuable, moreso than a Titan, which is worth what, a couple hundred real world dollars just because of how much time and materials and sweat and tears they take to manufacture.
posted by RolandOfEld at 11:58 AM on July 10, 2013


People who have no idea of the game mechanics should probably not speculate on isk-dollar conversions and just trust me that the ship was worth about US$10,000. It is true that it was not feasible to turn it directly into cash. But this is really not that strange and you can compare it to a bunch of other real-world illiquid assets.
posted by ryanrs at 11:58 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


What do you mean by "worth", when you tell me that I should just trust you about what it's worth?
posted by Flunkie at 12:00 PM on July 10, 2013


Right. Well if someone in the know in the art field tells you a Picasso is worth 9.3 million dollars would you trust them or question their experience?

It's damn sure not anything more than a bunch of dried paint on a piece of cloth (materials) but if you offered someone $17.43 for it I bet you'd get a lot of funny looks.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:01 PM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


I mean that if someone said they lost a $10,000 diamond ring, you wouldn't be arguing so much. The real-world jewelry market is at least as sketchy as the EVE Revenant market.
posted by ryanrs at 12:02 PM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]


I imagine the pranksters would be dressed up as Merry and Pippin and in retaliation New York would kidnap Boston's mascot.

YOU LEAVE WALLY OUT OF THIS!
posted by Jahaza at 12:03 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Right. Well if someone in the know in the art field tells you a Picasso is worth 9.3 million dollars would you trust them or question their experience?

It's damn sure not anything more than a bunch of dried paint on a piece of cloth (materials) but if you offered someone $17.43 for it I bet you'd get a lot of funny looks.
But my objection is not "It only cost 17.43 Eve-o-bucks to get the raw materials to build".

If someone in the know in the art field tells me a Picasso is worth 9.3 million dollars, I would think that they would mean it is not unreasonable to think it could, with some relative degree of ease, fetch a price of 9.3 million dollars if put up for sale on the open market. I wouldn't think they were telling me it uses 9.3 million dollars worth of paint.
posted by Flunkie at 12:05 PM on July 10, 2013


One of the annoying things about EVE threads on mefi is that the majority of the discussion always centers on isk-dollars conversion ratios. It's the "correlation doesn't equal causation" chorus of EVE posts, and about as interesting. I guess contrarians latch on to it because it's the only aspect of the story they can grasp and argue about.
posted by ryanrs at 12:06 PM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


This sort of backstabbing will continue because you cannot actually arrest and imprison anyone in the game. So it will be a less than real simulation.

Yes unlike in real life where the backstabbing of John Corzine with the MF Global knife will be tried for his actions that cost so many millions of dollars.
posted by rough ashlar at 12:07 PM on July 10, 2013


RolandOfEld: "
Needless to say, it's valuable, moreso than a Titan, which is worth what, a couple hundred real world dollars just because of how much time and materials and sweat and tears they take to manufacture.
"

Not to mention "to pilot." I just calculated the basic skills necessary to fly a Revenant decently - it comes to about 8 months of training and just under 2 billion ISK in skills.
posted by vanar sena at 12:07 PM on July 10, 2013


Ok, cool.

People in the know (not me because I'm not that experienced, but ryanrs among other sources) are telling you this Revenant/Picasso would fetch the isk equalivent of ~$10,000. Is there more to be said here?
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:07 PM on July 10, 2013


... because if there is I honestly don't understand what you're saying.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:09 PM on July 10, 2013


Well the thing about the revenant loss is that it is not strategically relevant. That ship was only ever piloted as a status symbol. As far as ship capabilities, it is strictly inferior to normal supercarriers which cost about 1/10th as much. Also the 3D ship model is ugly.
posted by ryanrs at 12:09 PM on July 10, 2013


>I'm just asking whether it's reasonable to believe that the ship could be sold for the amount that people say it's "worth".

You seem to not want to accept 'yes' as the answer.
posted by anti social order at 12:13 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Flunkie: "? I'm just asking whether it's reasonable to believe that the ship could be sold for the amount that people say it's "worth"."

So basically you're asking if it has high depreciation on original sale price, like a new car (that loses a huge chunk of its "value" the moment you hand over the cheque)? Seems kind of an odd tangent for a thread about a video game, though I suppose it's invited by the ISK values being flung all over the place.
posted by vanar sena at 12:14 PM on July 10, 2013


Yes, it could be sold for that much. The transaction would have to be done indirectly though because of game rules.

(BTW, if you or the mods think my Grath post was genuinely aggressive, then you haven't been following the thread.)
posted by ryanrs at 12:14 PM on July 10, 2013


[Couple comments removed; ironically calling people names in all caps is still problematic in its own right, but also let's not get into a "you're saying that because of a deletion" metacommentary stuff either. Let's just keep actual conversation going maybe.]
posted by cortex at 12:14 PM on July 10, 2013


Lots of things about EVE are problematic. It comes with the territory.
posted by ryanrs at 12:16 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


People in the know (not me because I'm not that experienced, but ryanrs among other sources) are telling you this Revenant/Picasso would fetch the isk equalivent of ~$10,000. Is there more to be said here?
He didn't say this, though. He just said trust him, even though it's not feasible to convert it to $8,000, it's worth it.

Then he compared it to a diamond ring, which I believe you also could not sell for anywhere near the price you paid for it. In fact I believe this was his point. But it's my point too, which makes it seem kind of strange to me.
You seem to not want to accept 'yes' as the answer.
It's not clear to me that I have been given that answer.

But whatever, continuing this back-and-forth nonsense is not of interest to me. I'm done here.
posted by Flunkie at 12:18 PM on July 10, 2013


Even the meta irony in the meta discussion of the meta strategy of the meta game in EVE is confusing/problematic/multifacated.

Welcome!
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:18 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


ryanrs: Do you happen to have any info on how many other Revenants/BPCs are in game?

It's not clear to me that I have been given that answer.

But whatever, continuing this back-and-forth nonsense is not of interest to me. I'm done here.


Seriously? I really was trying to give the benefit of the doubt but I'm pretty sure this fits several criteria for trolling, threadshitting, and/or possibly ragequitting.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:23 PM on July 10, 2013


Is the $8-10k price before or after it was destroyed? I mean, there were only three, now there are only two, surely prices are up, no?
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 12:23 PM on July 10, 2013


There are a couple revenant blueprints in game, probably less than 10? I don't think any players know for sure. They only drop from lowsec incursions, and the drop rate is very low (maybe 1%?). So there never were many around. I think people have more-or-less stopped running those incursions since CCP nerfed the payouts. So there are even fewer being found these days.

If you find a blueprint I know a buyer that will pay around 250b for it.
posted by ryanrs at 12:27 PM on July 10, 2013


Heh, I'm not running incursions, but do hope to have T2 logi skilled up sometime soon, so potentially could participate. So they are still dropping just at an extremely low rate for a not-all-that common event that's not often completed. I see. Neat.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:29 PM on July 10, 2013


Destroying something special that someone else worked a long time for and brings them a great deal of joy seems to fit a gamer's psychological profile to a T. Watching the video, their voices seem to match what you'd expect as well.

An example would be the slight 19 year old who works at Jiffy Lube, toiling underneath the BMWs and Audis of others, always ignored in line for his coffee each morning. All of this is no matter - in the online universe be pays monthly for, he's King.
posted by four panels at 12:31 PM on July 10, 2013


You're probably thinking of highsec incursions. People only do incursions in hisec or nullsec, where it is relatively safe. Lowsec incursions attract tons of pirates that gank the incursion ships and try to steal the loot that drops. So pretty much no one does the lowsec incursions.
posted by ryanrs at 12:31 PM on July 10, 2013


So, to bring it full circle, given one could (supposedly) exchange this ship for $8000 and buy a *real* boat, a screaming rage fit isn't exactly out of place.
posted by smidgen at 12:37 PM on July 10, 2013


>"the revenant loss is that it is not strategically relevant"

Sure, the loss itself is the eve equivalent of a news story about someone wrecking their fancy new Lamborghini street racing, only interesting because the item destroyed is rare and expensive. This story is more interesting given that the "race" was setup by a spy to cause the accident.

>Is the $8-10k price before or after it was destroyed?

Eve actually uses Heisenberg pricing, so we can only know what it was worth during its destruction.
posted by anti social order at 12:39 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Destroying something special that someone else worked a long time for and brings them a great deal of joy seems to fit a gamer's psychological profile to a T. Watching the video, their voices seem to match what you'd expect as well.

... and boy are my arms tired! Make sure to tip your waiters, folks.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:40 PM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Graff's rageout is hilarious. Is he single? Because I think the deranged ex-Delta Gamma sister from U. of Maryland might be husband-hunting...
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:41 PM on July 10, 2013


ryanrs: Ah, yea I didn't even know there were nullsec incursions, figured it was only high/low since they are seen as "invasions" of some sort in the game lore. True, I was thinking highsec.

four panels:Destroying something special that someone else worked a long time for and brings them a great deal of joy seems to fit a gamer's psychological profile to a T

Well, you're kind of missing a few points here. It's not the ship that brings a person a great deal of joy. Because the ship could sit in a station safe, for ever and ever amen. Or it could be used in numerous other ways and still be very much more safer than when it is used to purposefully and with full knowledge of the risk involved* fly into a battle with other players.

The ship itself doesn't bring the person joy, the game, the war, the fights, and the aftermath do. Unless you're saying the pilot wasn't a rational/logical actor, in which case I don't even know where to go in that discussion...

Anyway, when you look at things that way the person destroying the Revenant was actually gratifying the Revenant pilots desire for combat, aka the often mentioned "good fights" that people are looking for in EVE consensual PvP, which this is, deception and espionage aside of course...


* See bullet points 1, 3, 4, 9, and 11 and that's just at a glance.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:42 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


Maybe we can talk about the CCP oops node remap that saved the TEST capital fleet after they were pinned down by Goons?

Last week about a 100 TEST carriers were trapped in Z9PP by a massive CFC subcapital fleet. Z9PP is only a couple jumps from the CFC staging system, so there was a constant stream of reinforcements coming in as they slowly picked apart the capital fleet. It was a very long fight, something like 6 hours. But the CFC forces had the capitals locked down and there was little hope for their escape.

This fight was extremely relevant to the ongoing war because many people believe TEST is on the verge of going broke. They would not have been able to replace these capital ships quickly, if at all. It is quite possible that the destruction of this fleet would have ended the war with a CFC victory.

Unfortunately, CCP went in and fucked it all up. The fight had been grinding along for 6 hours. The game simulation was chugging along at 10% normal speed, but the servers were still basically working. For some reason the game developer decided they should go in and start moving unrelated processes off the server in an attempt to free up resources for the fight simulation.

So some CCP server admin in iceland sshed into their London datacenter and killed all the processes except those for system Q9PP.

Since the actual fight was in Z9PP (Q9PP doesn't even exist), all processes on the server were killed, all players were forcibly logged off, and all the trapped TEST capitals disappeared from space, safe.

With the battle abruptly ended, pilots from both sides took to the forums to rage or gloat, depending on which side they were on. However most agreed that CCP was bad at running servers (one of the eternal truths of EVE).
posted by ryanrs at 12:42 PM on July 10, 2013 [7 favorites]


Because the ship could sit in a station safe, for ever and ever amen.

Not true for supercarriers (like the revenant) or titans. You can't dock those ships in stations. So once you buy one, you're stuck in it unless you want to eject and leave your multi-thousand dollar space pixels floating unpiloted for someone to steal. That's why they're known as space coffins.
posted by ryanrs at 12:47 PM on July 10, 2013


sigh. I wish I had time between work and personal life to reactivate my three (yes, three) EVE accounts. It'd be awesome to fly with some Mefites but I'm not just sure I can make the time commitment anymore.
posted by nathan_teske at 12:48 PM on July 10, 2013


Agreed, that is much more interesting to me, but it's just harder to parse for non-players than flashy item lost that costs X.

This just made me think, if there were a way to destroy TF2 hats (dominations?) then we'd see posts like this everytime someone lost a Sunbeams Kabuto or the like.
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:49 PM on July 10, 2013


You can't dock those ships in stations. So once you buy one, you're stuck in it

Crazy minor nitpick but is it possible to build one in a station (not a Titan, I know those have to be assembled in a POS) and leave it there forever? Basically never, ever, undock, not even once...

I admit don't quite understand that game mechanic but I thought I saw a image on reddit of some HUGE ship in a station and assumed this was the case.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:50 PM on July 10, 2013


Because the ship could sit in a station safe, for ever and ever amen.

Not true for supercarriers (like the revenant) or titans. You can't dock those ships in stations. So once you buy one, you're stuck in it unless you want to eject and leave your multi-thousand dollar space pixels floating unpiloted for someone to steal. That's why they're known as space coffins.


Although you can buy/train a special account that has only the prereqs for sitting in the ship, to just hold it for you. Most people at that level have multiple accounts though, and so having one trapped in the super is just the cost of owning a super and not really debilitating.
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:51 PM on July 10, 2013


Supers have to be built in a POS too I'm pretty sure.
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:51 PM on July 10, 2013


If you lose a ship because of a glitch CCP will replace it. You probably saw someone who lost a super or something because of a glitch and petitioned CCP about it. They'll restore it in a station (the only way they can be in a station), hence why the picture was notable on reddit.
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:53 PM on July 10, 2013


There are a couple revenant blueprints in game, probably less than 10?

Can you only build one spaceship per blueprint? If I owned a blueprint, could I make a bunch of them and sell them to other people, or what?
posted by jeather at 12:54 PM on July 10, 2013


Supers never see the inside of a station. They are constructed in POS* and spend most of their lived there. They pretty much only ever leave a POS to kill things or get killed.

The only exception is the rare supercap that is lost because of a CCP screwup and then reimbursed. When a GM reimburses a supercap, it is delivered inside a station. But once you undock it, you can never redock.

* POS = player owned station, which is NOT actually a station. It's a control tower with a force field. The name is an artifact of CCP being bad at naming things.
posted by ryanrs at 12:55 PM on July 10, 2013


Ahhhhhh.... so yea, if you lose a super/titan in a glitch approved by CCP as reimbursable you could have it in a station forever and ever amen. Well, I tried.

Neat to know why that picture was of note then....
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:57 PM on July 10, 2013


Given the skullduggery at the higher levels in EVE I assume the person who shut down z9pp is under heavy scrutiny.
posted by edgeways at 12:57 PM on July 10, 2013


Can you only build one spaceship per blueprint? If I owned a blueprint, could I make a bunch of them and sell them to other people, or what?

Depends on the blueprint, but this type of ship only could be built from dropped blueprint copies that only had 1 run on them, so one ship per BPC.

What you described though is a huge part of the economy for most other ships and goods, which can be built from Blueprint originals.
posted by DynamiteToast at 12:57 PM on July 10, 2013


Can you only build one spaceship per blueprint?

People are either amazed or horrified when they learn that DRM and copyrights are a core game mechanic in EVE shipbuilding. The revenant blueprint is only ever dropped as a 1-run blueprint copy. You can use it to build a single ship, but that's all. Most other ships have blueprint originals that can be manufactured from, copied to make limited-run blueprint copies, researched, etc.
posted by ryanrs at 12:58 PM on July 10, 2013


Can you only build one spaceship per blueprint? If I owned a blueprint, could I make a bunch of them and sell them to other people, or what?

Clarification: There are Blueprint Originals and Blueprint Copies. Originals can be used forever, unless destroyed by other causes. Blueprint Copies come from NPC drops/missions or by making copies of Originals. Copies can have 1 or more production runs on them.

There are no Revenant Originals. You only get Copies, which I assume are 1 run, from a certain NPC drop (see above for info on it). So, if you owned a blueprint copy you could make one Revenant.

Preview: see dynamitetoast's comment as well.
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:00 PM on July 10, 2013


Yeah, that's right. You can actually be a copyright troll in EVE and make ISK by selling licensed, limited run copies of rare tech 2 blueprint originals. The values of these original blueprints can range from tens to hundreds of billions of isk.
posted by ryanrs at 1:01 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


What corp/alliance are you with ryanrs?
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:06 PM on July 10, 2013


People are either amazed or horrified when they learn that DRM and copyrights are a core game mechanic in EVE shipbuilding.

. . . amazed, but with even less interest in playing the game now? But this kind of info is why I absolutely love the EVE threads here. This is really fascinating.

rare tech 2 blueprint originals

What's a tech 2 blueprint, and why is it rare?
posted by jeather at 1:07 PM on July 10, 2013


How much of that money would come from real cash, and how much would be mined in-game? Is it resonantly necessary to spend real-world money to build something that big? How long would it take an alliance of that size to rebuild a ship like that? I'm having trouble putting this in context as a non-player.

RolandOfEld: "A ship is safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for. " William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Attributed without citation in Gary Ninneman, C.I.A.: Church in Atrophy (Xulon Press, 2006), P. 167. (Also attributed to many other people, including Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper.
posted by Canageek at 1:09 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


There's a demarcation between tech 1 and tech 2 modules (just more advanced versions of the tech 1 modules) for most every ship part. The T1 Blueprint originals (BPOs) are easy to acquire, and by spending time and money you can research a T2 Blueprint copy (BPC) of the corresponding T1 module and then build them and sell them. Years ago it was possible to own T2 BPOs though, but they were phased out. The people who still have them and (still log on) can therefore make T2 modules much cheaper than anyone else (since you don't have to research a new T2 copy of the blueprint every 10 modules or so), so they're very valuable.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:10 PM on July 10, 2013


What's a tech 2 blueprint, and why is it rare?

While there are a limited number of T2 Blueprint Originals floating around from the way the game used to work, there is an extra hurdle to jump before people can obtain T2 Blueprint Copies today. New T2 Blueprint Originals, afaik, have been depreciated altogether in favor of the new system of Invention.

Invention requires you to take a T1 Blueprint Copy for the target T2 module and place the T1 Blueprint Copy into an Invention slot in a station or POS along with some other materials. After some time, and based upon your skills, there is a % chance that you will get a T2 Blueprint Copy for that widget. If the dice roll is against you the T1 BPC and all the goods are destroyed. I hear of success rates of 50% maybe?

So, yea, that's how you begin to make T2 ammo, modules, and ships.
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:11 PM on July 10, 2013


> What's a tech 2 blueprint, and why is it rare?

Tech 2 (T2) BPOs were seeded in a lottery system by the devs several releases back. There was quite a bit of scandal and favoritism behind the scenes by CCP and I believe a few people even got fired over it (google for "eve t2 bpo scandal" and you'll get the details). A certain number of them have been destroyed over the years or are just held in dormant accounts; last time I played, T2 BPOs were treated more as a long-term reserve currency or prestige item than anything.
posted by nathan_teske at 1:12 PM on July 10, 2013


How long would it take an alliance of that size to rebuild a ship like that? I'm having trouble putting this in context as a non-player.

Titans take weeks perhaps at best, and that's depending on a very complex supply train of components...? ryanrs can comment better. I think supercarriers wouldn't take as long but are still an undertaking. Both man-hours and real-world money conversions into ships or ISK are hard math.
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:13 PM on July 10, 2013


So, yea, that's how you begin to make T2 ammo, modules, and ships.

For reference, in true EVE fashion, here's a flowchart of what you need to make a T3 ship. Note there's no such thing as T3 modules. This chart shows both the Reverse Engineering phase, in the top right, as well as the manufacturing steps everywhere else.
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:19 PM on July 10, 2013


How much of that money would come from real cash, and how much would be mined in-game?

It would be all in game.

The dollar value of ships that gets bandied about in these stories comes from the price of a PLEX (pilot license extension) which is good for one month of game time. You can buy them outside the game from CCP for about $17 each (amazon sells them too). In game you can buy them at market currently for about 550 million ISK. A lot of people play the game for free because they earn enough in game to buy PLEX every month on top of whatever other expenses they incur.

I don't know if there is much business going the other way (ie, PLEX or ships being sold for real world money). CCP frowns on it, obviously, and I don't hear about it. Also the eve player base is too small for farming operations of the sort that are/were found in WoW.
posted by MillMan at 1:20 PM on July 10, 2013


Yah ryanrs could probably answer best, since he's still playing and I quit probably a year ago. From my experience it's not too hard to build most usual ships this size if you've got the money and infrastructure (these guys do), but this is a special "pirate" ship. It's an enormous loss for that one player, but there are players I knew who were rich enough to replace that if they wanted. They also didn't become the richest players I knew by blowing 300b on status symbols though.

As for the first part of your question, I can guarantee the guy who had this ship wasn't a miner. There's a lot of facets to the eve economy, and mining is the least profitable one. Considering he was in PL I would bet he made a lot of his money scamming people.

I don't know if there is much business going the other way (ie, PLEX or ships being sold for real world money). CCP frowns on it, obviously, and I don't hear about it. Also the eve player base is too small for farming operations of the sort that are/were found in WoW.


There is a business for it, and when I played the Russian alliances were notorious for botting (the eve form of farming).
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:23 PM on July 10, 2013


How long would it take an alliance of that size to rebuild a ship like that?

There are no blueprints currently for sale. He ain't getting it back.
posted by ryanrs at 1:25 PM on July 10, 2013


I'm familiar with the botting operations - just no familiarity with that turning into real world money. Unlike my WoW days I never see in game ads for sales when I'm docked in trade hubs.
posted by MillMan at 1:27 PM on July 10, 2013


Yea, I'm not familiar with how the RMT folks are handling transactions either. I'm interested in an academic sort of way since a) a subscription is enough of an expense for me, not that it's all that much if you pay attention to deals*, b) I'll not be botting nor have the ISK to spare to make real world $$$ anytime soon, and c) the risk of losing my account ain't worth it.

*Ignorant question: anyone mind enlightening me on what the deal is with timecodes and why they're better/cheaper/faster/stronger than subscribing through CCP? I can tell that buying PLEX for $ is generally more expensive than CCP subscription and I get why that is. But timecodes... No comprendo...
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:31 PM on July 10, 2013


That's because the PLEX system sucks all the casual ISK buyers away from the blackmarket sellers. Without that market, the sellers are much less prominent. At this point, a lot of the people running bots are actually using the ISK to fund projects in-game, not converting it to RL money.
posted by ryanrs at 1:31 PM on July 10, 2013


The only experience I had with RMT was some guy from the goons who would always invade all our jabber channels once a week and advertise that he was "buying Eve gold" for some price. I never took him up on it because I was always space poor. So yes, the scale is much smaller but I'm sure it's there somehow...
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:37 PM on July 10, 2013


EVE timecodes are basically PLEX that can be sold by third party retailers. When you buy a timecode, the retailer emails you a code that you can enter into CCP's account management page and magically receive the equivalent amount of PLEXes. Timecodes can sometimes be cheaper than PLEX if the retailer is offering a sale or other deal (buy 10 get 1 free etc).

The timecode system pre-dates PLEX, which is why the functionality overlaps. They keep it around because it's easy for small time resellers to sell timecodes.
posted by ryanrs at 1:38 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


DynamiteToast: who was the seller? Was it elusif?
posted by ryanrs at 1:38 PM on July 10, 2013


Yup. Thanks, that was killing me that I couldn't remember his name.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:39 PM on July 10, 2013


Ha ha ha. Right now he is operating a pretty big market bot operation in Jita. Sell a unit of moon goo to buy orders and you'll probably find an obvious anagram of his name.
posted by ryanrs at 1:40 PM on July 10, 2013


Man, trying to sell isk to the Russians. How does that even work? They are bigger botters than he was (is).
posted by ryanrs at 1:42 PM on July 10, 2013


Oh I don't know who his clientele was, he was just my only experience first hand. I mentioned the Russians earlier thinking that for all they botting they did, some of them were probably RMTing it somehow.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:44 PM on July 10, 2013


Elusif mostly sold isk within the goon alliance. CCP doesn't track intra-alliance isk transfers because they are very common for legitimate purposes. It's when you send 100b to a stranger that sets off their monitoring programs.

Maybe there is a huge underground isk seller market. It's not something I have ever run across though. But CCP is really bad at catching bots, so who knows.
posted by ryanrs at 1:48 PM on July 10, 2013


I went from reading about the 19 year-old guy in jail for six months in Texas for one dumb Facebook post to Graff there literally swearing to god to hire a hitman to murder one of his teammates. Wow.

Also: I, too, like the cut of Jeff's jib.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:57 PM on July 10, 2013


As far as I'm concerned, Jeff is an asshole of the highest order, and Graff's rage, while excessive, is completely understandable to me.

To all you folks who do this sort of infuriating bullshit, then chime in with 'hey, relax, it's just a game,' you have no idea how much you ruin the game for some people. Yes, in the end, it is just a game, but some of us have a little more invested in our play than you do. Please stop being Jeff, or at least, please stop fucking with the Graff's of the world. it is rude, obnoxious, and hurtful.
posted by KHAAAN! at 2:10 PM on July 10, 2013


Why is Jeff an asshole? Because he can laugh off a defeat in a game? He doesn't sound like the sort who would deliberately have caused a loss like this (I take his "let's see how much more we can lose" as a joke, of course). Why is it bad that he can show some humility and good humor?

You say that attitudes like Jeff's "ruin the game for some people." I can completely understand that. However, attitudes like Graff's can completely ruin a game for some other people (folks like me). Which of the two should be given greater deference?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:18 PM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]


Oh god I love this game!

The best way to start playing EVE is if you have a couple of days of uninterrupted free time -- because not only will you need it, but if you are of a curious, hell bent on learning, and slightly control freak sort, you will lose HOURS, happily.

I just became CEO of the corp I co-founded in May; we joined an alliance and moved down to Providence (NRDS) a week ago, and we'd love new members. Send me a MeMail if you want to know more.

o7 and Fly Safe!
posted by gsh at 2:21 PM on July 10, 2013


As far as I'm concerned, Jeff is an asshole of the highest order, and Graff's rage, while excessive, is completely understandable to me.

To all you folks who do this sort of infuriating bullshit, then chime in with 'hey, relax, it's just a game,' you have no idea how much you ruin the game for some people. Yes, in the end, it is just a game, but some of us have a little more invested in our play than you do. Please stop being Jeff, or at least, please stop fucking with the Graff's of the world. it is rude, obnoxious, and hurtful.


While I totally see your point, and can agree, there's also something to be said for Jeff's reaction in my experience with the game. When you lose a ship that represents a significant portion of your net worth it's nice to have someone to say "hey don't worry about it too much, lets go play chivalry and take our minds off it".
posted by DynamiteToast at 2:24 PM on July 10, 2013


RolandOfEld: "I always get the feeling that it's more along the lines of "was built using a sum of Eve-o-bucks that, if purchased on the open market all at once as of now, would cost $8,000". If this feeling of mine is accurate,

That's not the case here. If you bought all the materials you needed to build this ship... you couldn't. You can only build it if you have a Blueprint Copy for it. The developers changed the game to remove the place/way to get this Blueprint Copy such that you can't get them and there were never that many (single digits?) copies in the game in the first place. So, it's valuable because it's rare, not because of the minerals/parts it takes to make it.
"

So then, as a non-Eve player, are Blueprint Copies consumed in the construction of a ship, or can they just start building a new one?

I will confess, having been a long time gamer, that I suspect I know the answer to my question, which would be "consumed" (which never makes sense to me as a player, but I can see the point from a gamemaster's POV).

Number 2, if you have some pimpass vehicle like that which is inferior to a less expensive and better ship, why fly it where you could lose it?
posted by Samizdata at 2:25 PM on July 10, 2013


So then, as a non-Eve player, are Blueprint Copies consumed in the construction of a ship, or can they just start building a new one?

I will confess, having been a long time gamer, that I suspect I know the answer to my question, which would be "consumed" (which never makes sense to me as a player, but I can see the point from a gamemaster's POV).

Number 2, if you have some pimpass vehicle like that which is inferior to a less expensive and better ship, why fly it where you could lose it?


Consumed, hence why BPOs of tech 2 things are so valuable.

Because you want to show it off. For the record, I believe it's only slightly less better than the cheaper version, it's not impractically worse. It's still one of the best ships in the game in the situation he was using it.
posted by DynamiteToast at 2:28 PM on July 10, 2013


I like Jeff, I like Jeff's attitude, and I want to see more Jeffs out there, being all Jeff and Jeffing around, because Jeff seems like a dude with the right goddamned sort of attitude. Anytime the grar builds up on MeFi, just be like Jeff and say "Let's go play Chivalry or something!"

Jeff's hot.

"Your mic is so bad Graff, bee tee dubs. You might have broken it with your rage just then."
posted by Sebmojo at 3:28 PM on July 10, 2013


Oh my god I am reading their Summer Movie round up, and it's some of the most pretentious, up-its-own-ass analysis I have ever seen.

"He stumbles when he tries to reduce Gatsby to the story of a couple of lovesick kids, and make Daisy and Jay’s earnest expressions of affection and disappointment into the heart of the story—as though the motivations that drove the entire Jazz Age could be scribbled down on an index card and tacked onto some hack screenwriter’s office corkboard."

ugh but I also like to torture myself by reading self-important film criticism that belies the writer's own narrow, shallow reading than anything within the film itself so sue me.
posted by destronomics at 3:34 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


As far as I'm concerned, Jeff is an asshole of the highest order, and Graff's rage, while excessive, is completely understandable to me.

To all you folks who do this sort of infuriating bullshit, then chime in with 'hey, relax, it's just a game,' you have no idea how much you ruin the game for some people. Yes, in the end, it is just a game, but some of us have a little more invested in our play than you do. Please stop being Jeff, or at least, please stop fucking with the Graff's of the world. it is rude, obnoxious, and hurtful.


But ... Graff's wrong? And an asshole? And rude, obnoxious and hurtful himself?

Jeff's a chill bro who I'd be happy to play with any day.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:35 PM on July 10, 2013


Oh my god I am reading their Summer Movie round up, and it's some of the most pretentious, up-its-own-ass analysis I have ever seen.

Pandemic Legion do film reviews? Maybe that's why they had trouble finding the spy.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:36 PM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]


Graff needs to get out of the command module more and experience talking to people in the same room as himself.

All game and no real life makes Graff a dull boy completely lose the fucking plot.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:00 PM on July 10, 2013


Eve actually uses Heisenberg pricing, so we can only know what it was worth during its destruction.

Like a modern financial institution. Now I understand why economists are so interested in studying Eve.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:17 PM on July 10, 2013


I've only read the first few comments on this thread, where people are saying it's old to read more stories of espionage that only results in people stealing or blowing up more and more expensive space ships.

Well, what if someone was to make an EVE Online-esque game but set it in a traditional fantasy MMORPG world? And instead of gold being the big thing, make it be about lands and titles and bloodlines. That's right, I'm suggesting a Game of Thrones-styled Byzantine griefer heaven. The Swedes at Paradox should go and turn Crusader Kings + Mount and Blade into a social online game.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:29 PM on July 10, 2013


ArgentCorvid: "yes, please."

my last dwarf fortress succession game, Mountainbloods.
posted by boo_radley at 7:39 PM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]


if you have some pimpass vehicle like that which is inferior to a less expensive and better ship, why fly it where you could lose it?

Because nobody will know it's pimp until you post the lossmail.

Every ship loss in EVE is published with an API-verifiable data dump of who was flying it, how it was fitted, what was in the cargo, who killed it, and what they were flying. Third-party sites like EVE-Kill.net maintain a permanent record. In a game with no points and no end, your EVE-Kill history is your score.

Here are mine:
Ryan Rs
St Ryan

Over 712 billion in enemy ships destroyed. (That's US$28,300 for those intent on putting RL prices on space pixels.)
posted by ryanrs at 9:01 PM on July 10, 2013


Can a mod please do a find and replace to correct all occurences of "Graff" to "Grath"?

TIA
posted by ryanrs at 10:39 PM on July 10, 2013


You can totally get lost into online gameplay. Not knowing the specifics at all, I can totally relate to Grath's nerd rage. It's certainly a more appropriate "in game" reaction than taking a step back and chillaxing.

As I've said in the past, thank you baby Jesus for not releasing this game before I reached adulthood. I am really fascinated by these EVE players and I wish there was psychological analysis to read. I'm curious about the depth of their immersion into this world. How long does an EVE player play. How many hours a week and for how many years. Is it an escape. What kind of problems do they have in real life. Are they immature or is this process helping them learn social skills.

It's really incredible that there is so much "value" inside a virtual world. It's obvious the online aspect increases this value exponentially. Valor, humiliation, alliances, traitors. Tangible emotions, tangible problems. And yet at the end of the day, we are literally talking about nothing. I suppose much the same could be said about film and television.

In the back of my mind I acknowledge that this is without question the future of entertainment.
posted by phaedon at 11:42 PM on July 10, 2013



If you're interested, you can join mefi's own Plate of Beans Incorporated in game. We don't do much skullduggery beyond gate camping but we do have a nice wormhole system and our fearless leader often leads us to glorious and fiery deaths in PvP.


So there are MeFi posters who play EVE, and there are MeFi posters who are also Goons. So there must be people here who are spies for Goonswarm, and vice versa. Interesting.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 12:30 AM on July 11, 2013


I'm curious about the depth of their immersion into this world.

I am a mid-level space bureaucrat for Gentlemen's Agreement, a 2500-character space-holding alliance. We have sovereignty in 52 solar systems and own 20 space stations. There are perhaps 500 actual people in my alliance.

As a space bureaucrat, I spend at least as much time doing management stuff as I spend actually playing the game. So for me "playing EVE" usually involves text chats in jabber (46 chats open right now, 16 of which are active, 8 that I'm paying attention to). I guess that's pretty damn immersive, although maybe not in the way you'd expect.

The main time suck for me is boring day-to-day management...stuff. There's probably 20-40 man-hours a day of random things that need to be done to keep the alliance running smoothly.

Here's what I spend my time on, in no particular order:

1) Logistics - moving crap around in-game
- alliance and corp assets and infrastructure in our home region
- alliance and corp assets and infrastructure on the front line
- personal logistics, buying and moving my own ships to the front
- moving other people's stuff for a fee

2) Planning stuff and delegating alliance stuff
- generally keeping an eye on things
- poking people to do tasks that have been ignored
- participating in planning and policy discussions with other leadership
- answering questions from line members
- communicating alliance policy to members
- reviewing reimbursements requests

3) Diplomatic discussion with allies
- resolving petty disputes among members, enforcing coalition rules
- coordinating war activities
- counterintelligence / outing spies

4) HR
- interviewing people wishing to join my corp
- interviewing corps wishing to join the alliance
- background checks and other due diligence re. above

5) Running my hedge fund. (this is how I make isk)
- discuss market trends and opportunities with other large traders
- buy/sell/manufacture/react stuff
- currently focused on market speculation re. recent Odyssey expansion

6) Fly spaceships in glorious space battles.
- doesn't happen that often
posted by ryanrs at 1:10 AM on July 11, 2013 [6 favorites]


How many hours a week and for how many years.

According to CCP, anyone who subscribes for at least six months will continue playing forever. People take breaks and let their subscriptions lapse, but they almost always come back at some point.
posted by ryanrs at 1:13 AM on July 11, 2013


ryanrs: "I'm curious about the depth of their immersion into this world.

I am a mid-level space bureaucrat for Gentlemen's Agreement, a 2500-character space-holding alliance. We have sovereignty in 52 solar systems and own 20 space stations. There are perhaps 500 actual people in my alliance.

As a space bureaucrat, I spend at least as much time doing management stuff as I spend actually playing the game. So for me "playing EVE" usually involves text chats in jabber (46 chats open right now, 16 of which are active, 8 that I'm paying attention to). I guess that's pretty damn immersive, although maybe not in the way you'd expect.

The main time suck for me is boring day-to-day management...stuff. There's probably 20-40 man-hours a day of random things that need to be done to keep the alliance running smoothly.

Here's what I spend my time on, in no particular order:

1) Logistics - moving crap around in-game
- alliance and corp assets and infrastructure in our home region
- alliance and corp assets and infrastructure on the front line
- personal logistics, buying and moving my own ships to the front
- moving other people's stuff for a fee

2) Planning stuff and delegating alliance stuff
- generally keeping an eye on things
- poking people to do tasks that have been ignored
- participating in planning and policy discussions with other leadership
- answering questions from line members
- communicating alliance policy to members
- reviewing reimbursements requests

3) Diplomatic discussion with allies
- resolving petty disputes among members, enforcing coalition rules
- coordinating war activities
- counterintelligence / outing spies

4) HR
- interviewing people wishing to join my corp
- interviewing corps wishing to join the alliance
- background checks and other due diligence re. above

5) Running my hedge fund. (this is how I make isk)
- discuss market trends and opportunities with other large traders
- buy/sell/manufacture/react stuff
- currently focused on market speculation re. recent Odyssey expansion

6) Fly spaceships in glorious space battles.
- doesn't happen that often
"

That sounds so much, ummmmmm, fun. And you get paid, I mean, pay for the privilege to to have such, ummm, fun.

Call me a wuss if you want, but my preferred MMOing is more of planning attacks and slaughtering as much as I can.
posted by Samizdata at 1:39 AM on July 11, 2013


'Cause I hate grinding. And truthfully, I tend to be more of a support guy, as much as I would like to let myself think otherwise.
posted by Samizdata at 2:00 AM on July 11, 2013


There are 70,000 characters involved in this war. Single battles range from 200-2,000 simultaneous players. Massive management, logistics, and planning is the price you pay to successfully wage the largest war in any computer game.

Most players don't do this management work. Most of them jump in their spaceship, join fleets, and shoot the enemy. But other people enjoy the logistics of war. For those people, EVE bloc wars provide an opportunity to run a campaign with more depth and breadth than any other game.

This is not the same as commanding crowds of NPC soldiers like in Starcraft. EVE, for lack of a better description, is real.

Your spies are real people that social-engineered their way into the enemy's organization.

Your scouts are real people typing their observations to you in text chat.

Your thousands of troops are all real people that you command over live voice comms.

Nothing is on autopilot. Every job needs to be done.
posted by ryanrs at 2:11 AM on July 11, 2013 [2 favorites]


To all you folks who do this sort of infuriating bullshit, then chime in with 'hey, relax, it's just a game,' you have no idea how much you ruin the game for some people. Yes, in the end, it is just a game, but some of us have a little more invested in our play than you do.

The problem with logic like this is that ruinous, destructive strategies are part of the game, and are built into its rule system. Eve Online was set up to enable evil, Machiavellian power plays and Benedict Arnold-esque betrayals. That's what makes the game fun, and that's what makes it intriguing to the outsiders who are hooked on Eve threads (and far outnumber actual players).

Saying that these strategies ruin the game is like claiming that some poker games are ruined by the joker being wild. Real poker or bridge players invest real, non-ISK money to participate in tournaments, but don't complain about how the rules were originally formulated. It's a game. Games have rules. Deal with it.
posted by Gordion Knott at 4:13 AM on July 11, 2013


"I'm curious about the depth of their immersion into this world.


I've been playing for almost months so I'm new to the game. I've played MMOs for years and wanted to try something different. I'm in the Mefi Corp which is not involved in the massive war type play that RyanR's is. We're a tiny corp in comparison.

Why do I play? I don't roleplay per say, as in I don't act like a character but I enjoy the pretending aspect of imagining myself whizzing around in a spaceship. I've thought about why I like these games and for me I think one of the reasons it's like an adult version of the type of play I enjoyed as a kid.

My friends and I would regularly play act in other worlds. Starwars, BSG, Jason of Star Command, James Bond, superheroes, dungeons and dragons are just a few I remember. We'd pretend to be people in that world, some real characters and some made up that we would think fit. Our worlds would traverse our neighborhood. We'd build forts/bases in different yards, fight battles and just generally play act different things like kids do. This sort of imaginative play was some of the most fun and creative times I can remember. It's not so much reliving childhood but extending 'imagination play' into adult life simply because it's fun.

I have also enjoyed playing computer games since my friend got an Atari.

I'm curious about the depth of their immersion into this world. How long does an EVE player play. How many hours a week and for how many years.

I've met players who have been around for years. Doesn't mean they've played extensively all that time though. What's nice about EVE is that unlike a lot of MMOs it's easy to take short or long breaks and not really get behind. Right now due to RL I'm not playing that much maybe 5 to 6 hours a week. In the winter months some weeks I easily played 30+ hours a week. I generally game like people might watch tv at the end of the day. Right now I will log on a run a quick mission when taking a break from work during the day or in the evening if I have the energy.

Is it an escape. What kind of problems do they have in real life. Are they immature or is this process helping them learn social skills.

This is one of those myths about these types of games that I wish I could shoot with my ships missiles and blast it out of the universe. It's a stereotype that fits only a portion of people who play these sorts of games. In my experience a very small portion at that.

I'm 40+, happily married, have friends, am close to my family and very socially adjusted. I just like to play games and playing with other people is simply a form or recreation and entertainment I find fun. In EVE it's possible to just play on your own or get together and organize things as a group. I like doing both. Over the years I have played with people who might fit portions of that stereotype but most are older in both age or maturity, are in relationships, have families or are on their way to having families and play for similar reasons. It really is 'just a game' in it's truest sense.

Yep it is an escape but I wouldn't characterize it as different then the numerous other ways people use to 'escape' the dull drums of life or escape into something they enjoy doing. For me it's a hobby. I create and build my characters within the structure of the game and just do stuff. I make goals, work towards them, succeed as well as fail and have fun with other people doing the same thing.

No doubt their are people who play EVE and other games like this that get caught up in the virtual world more then might seem healthy. Grath could be that type or he may not. Hard to tell from just that one clip. He could be like the type who gets angry and frustrated at his sports team members for fumbling the ball in a stupid way and rages in the locker room for a bit. Then they all go out for a beer.

In general I don't see an issue with games bringing out all types of emotions. As with many things when you invest time and energy in something it can be frustrating when something goes wrong. They can also bring on happiness when things go right or when you've accomplished some sort of goal. In EVE I've been annoyed at myself many times for doing something dumb and losing something I worked for. It's a very unforgiving game in that regard. It makes accomplishing something that much better though which is why I like it. In one sense it's like the same sort of recreation I've gotten when playing a team sport. You win some, you lose some. The main thing is just playing because it's fun. I mean heck, I get to fly spaceships and shoot things!!!
posted by Jalliah at 6:18 AM on July 11, 2013 [5 favorites]


How are these supercarriers controlled? Could a single person or small cadre (not a cabal; there is no cabal) simply go rogue and "drive" one away?
posted by Eideteker at 9:43 AM on July 11, 2013


Ships are occupied by a single person. You can leave one ship and fly something different. Usually this is done at a station and if so that empty ship is secure. You can also do it in space which means anyone who can get to it could potentially fly it away... If they had the skills for that ship. Those huge ships can not be docked at a station, too big, so generally once you take possession of one that character is unlikely to leave it floating around unoccupied, ever... Even in a space occupied with only friends and corp-mates. Unofficial moto of Eve is, 'trust no one'.
posted by edgeways at 11:25 AM on July 11, 2013


Unofficial moto of Eve is, 'trust no one'.

I've heard it also put as "Trust no one you can't physically punch in the face." Basically meaning if you don't know them in real life, they're not able to be trusted, you get the idea.

The MeFi Corp has extended this to include MeFi or Mefightclub members to much success.

Hi edge!
posted by RolandOfEld at 11:44 AM on July 11, 2013


By the way, those of you looking for more indepth coverage of things like this have no further to look than themittani*.

Here's their writeup of how this went down, in detail, in play-by-play mode.


*RoE has no connections to the mittani, no knowledge of the mittani in person or in game, and no clue of if that webpage has motives other than journalism.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:55 PM on July 11, 2013


I like this blurb, echoing what ryanrs said to me above, about lowsec incursions:

The Revenant’s value comes from the fact that it is currently the only pirate faction capital ship in the game, and the BPC for its construction can only drop from the mothership site for lowsec incursions, and at a miniscule rate at that. Due to the risks involved and the minimal rewards, lowsec incursion sites are rarely run, much less pushed to the 100% control required for the mothership to spawn. A concerted effort to push for a mothership in lowsec is sure to catch unwanted attention. The fight over a mothership site can be similar to a marching band performance, requiring fairly tight coordination between large numbers of fleet members. The lack of Concord in lowsec turns the effort into a marching band performance where drunken frat boys streak the field and push over as many people as they can; a single Celestis can damp out 3 logistics ships and cause the fleet to collapse. The end result is that it is an extremely arduous process to push a lowsec incursion to 100%, then gather a mothership fleet and successfully complete the site regardless of enemy interference.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:59 PM on July 11, 2013


Ok, last thing and I'll leave it be, but I wasn't aware of this layer to the cake. Makes Grath's rage a *bit* more understandable.

Flying a super is similar to flying a jet liner; both activities can easily result in catastrophic loss, yet have the capability to be extremely safe and quick should proper protocols be obeyed. But all the safety precautions were ignored for this op, and the pilots assumed their FC had already checked that BL. wasn’t lying in wait with 50 dreads and 20 supers.

Just like air liners, the distinction between rookies and veterans only becomes noticeable when something unexpected happens. Most of the pilots on that operation were relatively new to supercaps. When the FC went silent and cynos went up, the fleet members went into a state of shock and became unresponsive, unable to call targets, coordinate ECM bursts, or relay critical information needed for a rescue op. Other mistakes were made as well during the op; in one egregious example, a super was not aligned out because the pilot had moved to loot the Brick carrier. In contrast, the 3 veteran super pilots, such as Lelob and PenifSMASH, aligned out as soon as they landed, and were able to safe up their supers the moment cynos went up. However, in doing so they were unable to direct the newer supercapital pilots.

posted by RolandOfEld at 1:02 PM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


And now something positive about EVE, RoE has offered to help build my house IRL, in a few years after some talking in EVE. Providing, of course, that neither of us manages to wipe out the MF corp through cov-op wankerness.

Hi Roland.
posted by edgeways at 1:34 PM on July 11, 2013


Providing, of course, that neither of us manages to wipe out the MF corp through cov-op wankerness.

All. Part. Of. My. Plan. *evil laugh*.

RoE has offered to help build my house IRL

Seriously, if anyone else is building as cool (and labor intensive) a house as edge is looking to build (cordwood construction, nearly-off the grid, etc etc, amirite?) then they can ping me as well, I'll turn out for that fleet/grind/whatever. I miss working in the woods and this desk job isn't doing me any favors.

But yea, he told me he was in this phase of the process and I went all Gimli all up in that chat log.

"Yet my axe is restless in my hand. Give me a row of [cordwood] and room to swing and all weariness will fall from me!"

posted by RolandOfEld at 1:43 PM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


Thanks for the themittani link RoE, I didn't realize the Revenant was that underpowered, making it so much more impractical.

Also, the support ticket on page 3 is awesome.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:58 PM on July 11, 2013


no clue of if that webpage has motives other than journalism

The Mittani was created by Goonswarm to exert pressure on CCP management to make certain game mechanics changes and alter the development roadmap for EVE. Writers are paid in-game with ISK.

It also gets a bunch of E3 press passes for Goon people, which is cool.
posted by ryanrs at 4:05 PM on July 11, 2013 [1 favorite]


That said, The Mittani more-or-less avoids blatant propaganda. Their writers come from all over EVE, not just from Goonswarm. Articles with obvious bias (like republished State of the Alliance speeches) are marked as such.
posted by ryanrs at 4:08 PM on July 11, 2013


Totally unrelated except that it's about Eve Online, but rebalancing and renaming industrials. Long story short; part of Eve Online is some pilots play long distance space truckers. And there's been one particular space 18-wheeler that's been favored forever, the Iteron Mark V. So now CCP is rebalancing it to give some variety of the kinds of space trucks you drive while trucking rocks through space. It's this kind of attention to mundane details that makes Eve such a deep game. (Also it's important; some of my most exciting hijinks when I played were hauling improbably large but underprices cargos around nullsec with no one but my alt scouting for me.)
posted by Nelson at 1:35 PM on July 16, 2013 [1 favorite]


Iteron V got nothing on my Rhea.
posted by ryanrs at 3:13 AM on July 17, 2013


Or my Crane.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:26 PM on July 17, 2013


too soon?
posted by ryanrs at 2:34 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]


One of the largest space battles in human history is now unfolding (updating live)
posted by homunculus at 4:41 PM on July 28, 2013 [1 favorite]


« Older I came to Twitter because I had a book to sell, an...  |  In response to a listicle on p... Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments