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Baa baa black sheep / have you any wool / yes sir yes sir / kill all men
September 24, 2013 10:46 AM   Subscribe

Misandrist Lullabies.
posted by mightygodking (289 comments total) 86 users marked this as a favorite

 
OK this is hilarious. I almost never laugh out loud but here I have to say LOL.
posted by medusa at 10:51 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


It’s raining, it’s pouring;
The old man is snoring
Now is our chance.


Glorious.
posted by elizardbits at 10:53 AM on September 24, 2013 [12 favorites]


aaah the comments are even better
posted by elizardbits at 10:55 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


There are some amazing ones in the comments. My favorite:

Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree
Merry merry king of the bush is he
Laugh, Kookaburra, laugh, Kookaburra
Your time is coming, dickbag.
posted by troika at 10:56 AM on September 24, 2013 [23 favorites]


This is amazing.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 10:56 AM on September 24, 2013


Also, Kate Beaton's Straw Feminists.
posted by themadthinker at 10:56 AM on September 24, 2013 [20 favorites]


I want these charmingly illustrated.
posted by The Whelk at 10:56 AM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


what are examples of actual misogynist lullabies?
posted by Bwithh at 10:59 AM on September 24, 2013


Jack Sprat could eat no fat
His wife could eat no lean
So they had braised pork belly
Because shut the fuck up, Jack
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:59 AM on September 24, 2013 [32 favorites]


Monday's child is fair of face,
Tuesday's child is full of grace;
Wednesday's child is full of woe,
Because he was born with a shriveled, defective Y chromosome
posted by theodolite at 11:00 AM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


Halfway down the stair
Is the stair where I sit
Until a woman tells me so
I cannot move from it
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:01 AM on September 24, 2013 [10 favorites]


See, gender based violence can be funny!
posted by Drinky Die at 11:02 AM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


from the comments:

The farmer in the dell
The farmer in the dell
Heigh-ho the derry-o
The farmer in the dell

The farmer takes a wife
Now that DOMA was ruled unconstitutional she can get healthcare through her wife's government job
What, you thought all farmers were men?
Heigh-ho the derry-o
Lesbian separatists forever
posted by specialagentwebb at 11:03 AM on September 24, 2013 [184 favorites]


please can I be kidnapped by the Misandrist Fairies and run through the mists with them forever, stealing the horses of men and withering their crops with our laughter

this too is my dream
posted by elizardbits at 11:03 AM on September 24, 2013 [24 favorites]


Bwithh: “what are examples of actual misogynist lullabies?”

The barb of the joke is not supposed to be some idea that all lullabies are misogynist. The barb of the joke is supposed to be that angry MRAs are often claiming that the pendulum has swung, that feminism has gone too far, and that the world hates and reviles men. The humorous juxtaposition is the introduction of the darkest MRA nightmares into everyday nursery rhymes, where they obviously don't belong.
posted by koeselitz at 11:05 AM on September 24, 2013 [57 favorites]


Little Boy Blue
Come blow your horn
The sheep's in the meadow
The cows in the corn
No one can hear you
It will do you no good
We've built a large man
Out of wicker and wood...
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:07 AM on September 24, 2013 [60 favorites]


Youse are oppressing me!

/man
posted by Mister_A at 11:09 AM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


y'all, I went to a women's college

and our school-spirit week involved many drunken singalongs with undergraduates and alumnae

and lo, often and with great enthusiasm did my dorm posse sing our merry song, "Subjugation by the Patriarchy," in three-part harmony

Ahhhh, this thread brings back memories.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:10 AM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


Eenie meenie, minie moe,
This goddamn patriarchy has got to go

whelp this is fun, brb signing up for sitter city
posted by jetlagaddict at 11:10 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


I want these charmingly illustrated.

Or perhaps animated, like so.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:11 AM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yeah, the comments are even more fun than the post. Some great stuff there.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:13 AM on September 24, 2013


It's weird how much online feminism and MRA can often be a funhouse mirror version of each other, at times reflecting back only the very worst of their own qualities. Violence against women is a problem backed up by large scale social intimidation. Power dynamics inform our reactions to it. Joking about it is different than joking about men.

However, you still kind of look like tremendous assholes when you make murdering men into a source of humor. The power dynamics only inform the scale of how wrong what you are doing is. Basically, this isn't on the level of an MRA joking about murdering feminists. However, I would have difficulty taking anyone who engages in this little meme seriously if they complained about a dongle joke.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:13 AM on September 24, 2013 [18 favorites]


You all win the internet today. Except the MRA 'jits, who will always be losers.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:14 AM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


If you can't laugh at a misandrist lullaby meme, you might be too far down the MRA rabbithole.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:15 AM on September 24, 2013 [22 favorites]


I think I've been pretty vocal against them in my time on Mefi, and you should take my criticisms of joking about murdering people at face value as independent of that mindset, even if you do disagree with me.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:16 AM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


The humorous juxtaposition is the introduction of the darkest MRA nightmares into everyday nursery rhymes, where they obviously don't belong.

To paraphrase Doug from "Up!" - "The joke is funny, because the man is dead!"

One, two buckle my shoe
Three four shut the door
Five, six chemical castration is a voting requirement
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:18 AM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


I would have difficulty taking anyone who engages in this little meme seriously if they complained about a dongle joke.

Exactly. Joking about gender hatred is funny, but suggesting that a word for a computer part sounds like a penis is the kind of misogyny that must be ruthlessly rooted out. Personally, I'd like to see them both treated as not worth of getting upset about, but the double standard is pretty striking.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 11:19 AM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm definitely glad I haven't complained about dongle jokes, because I really like the nursery rhyme that exhorts the reader to Kill All Men.
posted by Greg Nog at 11:20 AM on September 24, 2013 [12 favorites]


I think you just self-identified yourself, guy who posted while I was writing my last message. But if the shoe fits, go ahead and wear it.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:20 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


"I think I've been pretty vocal against them in my time on Mefi, and you should take my criticisms of joking about murdering people at face value as independent of that mindset, even if you do disagree with me."

I entirely believe you're sincere, but it still seems like a kind of concern trolling to me. It's like people who complained that although they agreed with Bill Hicks's politics, that his humor went too far, etc.

"...the double standard is pretty striking."

It's not a double-standard because there are no men who are being murdered by women because they're men, while there are thousands of women murdered every week by men for being women. There is absolutely no comparison and anyone who doesn't see this is deluded.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:21 AM on September 24, 2013 [92 favorites]


I briefly conflated the definitions of misandry and misanthropy. Still hilarious reading them from that angle.
posted by figurant at 11:23 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Joking about gender hatred is funny, but suggesting that a word for a computer part sounds like a penis is the kind of misogyny that must be ruthlessly rooted out..

Have you guys really not considered that you're conflating two completely different groups of people here? Like, the existence of some putative humorless prig with political perspective XX does not mean that all jokes from funny people that share vaguely similar politics to XX are automatically invalid.

...The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, etc., on the way to the brainwashing camp where the white knights come from!
posted by RogerB at 11:25 AM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


I entirely believe you're sincere, but it still seems like a kind of concern trolling to me.

If you post jokes about murdering large groups of people there is a good chance there might be some criticism that is not related to an attempt to troll you. Please keep that in mind. I think I have said all I really can and should on this topic so I'll leave it there and ask you to stick with your belief that I am sincere.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:27 AM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


"Misanthropic lullabies by genetically engineered intelligent chimpanzees who live as an enslaved class."

Those wouldn't be funny because jokes about murdering people are not funny.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:27 AM on September 24, 2013


The dongle references are entirely relevant to this thread, how?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:27 AM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


Time for a refresher on punching up vs punching down?
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 11:28 AM on September 24, 2013 [41 favorites]


The dongle references are entirely relevant to this thread, how?

It was a thing about a woman, in a thread about a woman. Not like normal thread about normal people, this was about a woman story.
posted by Greg Nog at 11:29 AM on September 24, 2013 [62 favorites]


Just look at him! there he stands,
With his nasty hair and hands.
See! his nails are never cut;
They are grimed as black as soot;
And the sloven, I declare,
Never once has combed his hair;
Anything to me is sweeter
Than to see Shock-headed Peter.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:29 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


If you're happy and you know it, oppress a man
If you're happy and you know it, oppress a man
If you're happy and you know it
Your jackboot will surely show it
If you're happy and you know it, oppress a man

My friendzone is wide as an ocean
My friendzone is wide as the sea
My friendzone is wide as the ocean
Nice guys finish last with me
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:31 AM on September 24, 2013 [100 favorites]


Struwwelpeter is deeply, deeply fucked-up and provides some insight into German neurosis.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:33 AM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


Old King Cole was a merry old soul
And a merry old soul was he
Because his privilege insulated him from any firsthand experience of injustice or oppression
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:33 AM on September 24, 2013 [94 favorites]


georgie porgie pudding and pie
punch the boys and make them cry
posted by elizardbits at 11:34 AM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


Glad to see that we haven't reached the ends of invention. Perhaps we can drown out our serious man-talk with these sweet sweet grabahlabrhaah *splash splash*
posted by Slackermagee at 11:34 AM on September 24, 2013


All of them are just a lullaby with some random line put at the end LAZY TYPICAL WOMEN POETS.
posted by xmutex at 11:34 AM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


Why did the patriarch cross the road?

Because his head was too far up his own ass to see the ambush waiting.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:34 AM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


Hush, little baby, don't say a word,
Mama's gonna buy you a mockingbird.

And if that mockingbird won't sing,
Mama's gonna strangle your father while he sleeps.
posted by MoonOrb at 11:35 AM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


Those wouldn't be funny because jokes about murdering people are not funny.

But rhymes about Rabbits who steal guns and shoot people are hilarious.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:35 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Hush little baby, don't say a word.
Mama's gonna buy you a mockingbird
And if that mockingbird don't sing,
We will violently overthrow the patriachy.
posted by thivaia at 11:36 AM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


Damn, too slow.
posted by thivaia at 11:36 AM on September 24, 2013


London bridge is falling down
Falling down
Falling down
London bridge is falling down
Men can't build anything
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:37 AM on September 24, 2013 [96 favorites]


Be quiet now, my little boy
Please lie down to sleep
Mum is sitting by your bed
Singing rock-a-bye

Mum is so very tired
She badly needs to rest
It is dark and late at night
And I must smother you in your cradle because male children are useless and a burden.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:38 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Scratch an ironic misandrist and all you will scratch off is the irony y'all.
then they will scratch out your eyes and eat them
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:39 AM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


Frère Jacques, Frère Jacques
Dormez-vous ? Dormez-vous ?
Sonnez les matines, sonnez les matines
Glas de votre mort, glas de votre mort
posted by fraula at 11:42 AM on September 24, 2013 [12 favorites]


Miss Mary Mack, Mack, Mack,
All dressed in black, black, black,
Like an Angel of death, death, death,
come for men who talk back, back, back.

Out on the street, street, street,
Where men cat-call, call, call,
She swings her scythe, scythe, scythe,
And ends them all, all, all.


This might be my favorite so far.
posted by rtha at 11:44 AM on September 24, 2013 [64 favorites]


Yeah, that one was really, really good.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:44 AM on September 24, 2013


Lizzie Borden took an axe
And gave her father forty whacks.
The jury saw what she had done
And she was immediately acquitted of all charges and hailed as a hero in the media visit r/TheRedPill if you want to know the real truth stay strong brothers
posted by griphus at 11:48 AM on September 24, 2013 [48 favorites]


MoonOrb: "Hush, little baby, don't say a word,
Mama's gonna buy you a mockingbird.

And if that mockingbird won't sing,
Mama's gonna strangle your father while he sleeps.
"

C'mon, now.
posted by boo_radley at 11:48 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Caw caw corvid, have you any tidings?
Yes sir, yes sir, of murder, theft, and swivings.
posted by kenko at 11:48 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


I am wheezing with laughter at both the text and the meta.

Hot young men
Hot young men
One a penny, two a penny
Cheap sex slaves


and also

I had a little nut tree
Nothing would it bear
But a little nutmeg
And a golden pear
But you can hang men from it
So that's useful.

posted by Iteki at 11:49 AM on September 24, 2013 [21 favorites]


Metafilter: Misanthropic lullabies by genetically engineered intelligent chimpanzees who live as an enslaved class
posted by baf at 11:50 AM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


The barb of the joke is supposed to be that angry MRAs are often claiming that the pendulum has swung, that feminism has gone too far, and that the world hates and reviles men.

Or at least finds jokes about murdering them for their gender to be hilarious.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 11:56 AM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Coorie doon, coorie doon, coorie doon ma daught'r, coorie doon the day

Lie doon ma dear, and in your ear, tae help you close your eye
I’ll sing a song, a slumber song, a miner’s lullaby
Your daddy’s doon the mine, ma daurlin’, doon in the Curlby Main
Your daddy’s howkin’ coal ma daurlin’, for his ain wee wean

Coorie doon, coorie doon, coorie doon ma daught'r, coorie doon the day

There’s darkness doon the mine ma daurlin’, daurkness, dust and damp
But we must hae oor heat, oor light, oor fire and oor lamp
Your daddy coories doon, ma daurlin’, doon in a three foot seam
So you can coorie doon, ma daurlin’, coorie doon and dream

Your daddy'll die bad, ma daurlin, lungs black like daurk earth
Your daddy'll die bad, ma dauriln, for it's all he's worth
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:56 AM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


However, you still kind of look like tremendous assholes when you make murdering men into a source of humor.

What? If you think murdering men is the source of the humor here, you really missed something. Sometimes you have to dig a little deeper than the literal meaning of the words for meaning. I'm sure you do this all the time, otherwise you wouldn't be able to function in human society...
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 11:58 AM on September 24, 2013 [32 favorites]


Is this one of those exceptions to your "ironic Xism is just Xism" rule?
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:05 PM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


This is an honest question - why is this okay? Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm laughing, mostly at the non sequitur nature of the rhymes. Because I'm not laughing at the thought of oppressing or murdering men, at all. However, if these were nursery rhymes about the oppression or murder of women, all just for a laugh, well, that wouldn't be funny. And frankly, the fact that I'm giggling makes me a little uncomfortable because it wouldn't be okay if the genders were reversed. It makes me think that maybe it's not okay, and I can see why men are getting upset.

Bear with me, I'm working through this as I go. For example, we had a shitstorm of a thread over a professor evaluation telling the teacher to "teach naked." Then on the Emmy's the other night, Amy Poehler and Tina Fey gave Neil Patrick Harris the constructive criticism to take off his pants and twerk. I get that it's a joke, but really, if it's not okay in one context, why is it in the other? I'm not making a straw man argument; I'm asking. Because it seems to me we can't have it all ways. We can't say that one comment is the objectification of the subject, and the other isn't. We can't argue that jokes about killing women are misogyny, but jokes about killing men are funny because no one is actually doing that.

Or can we? Is it okay simply because the vast preponderance of history has focused on, reveled in, and encouraged the oppression and killing of women simply because they are women, and because that history isn't there for men, these are so obviously in jest that it's a shout of rebellion against that misogynistic history? And that really, it's pretty obvious that no one is actually promoting killing men, that the funny bit is the innocent, child-friendly nursery rhyme followed by a heavy-handed smack against patriarchy or men. That's the freaking joke. But I guess what I'm asking is, why is it so obvious that that's the joke here, and it is never that clear when the joke is about violence against women? Why is it that THAT is never "just a joke?"

I'm really asking. Truly. I feel like I'm maybe missing something. Yeah, I think these are hilarious. But I wonder, do I think so for the right reasons?

Of course, I could just be over-thinking this whole thing.
posted by jennaratrix at 12:05 PM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


I think you should check out the concept of Punching Up vs Punching Down.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:07 PM on September 24, 2013 [14 favorites]


I get that it's a joke, but really, if it's not okay in one context, why is it in the other?

Short answer: Because the context is different.

More specifically:

But I guess what I'm asking is, why is it so obvious that that's the joke here, and it is never that clear when the joke is about violence against women?

Because violence against women truly happens, endemically, everywhere. It's not obvious it's a joke because 99.99% of the time, it's. . . . not a joke.
posted by KathrynT at 12:09 PM on September 24, 2013 [37 favorites]


men and women get treated differently in the world

men and women get treated differently as sources of humor

context is a thing
posted by titus n. owl at 12:10 PM on September 24, 2013 [10 favorites]


Is this one of those exceptions to your "ironic Xism is just Xism" rule?

Yes! Because in this case, Xism doesn't exist, so making it up is part of the humor!
posted by RogerB at 12:10 PM on September 24, 2013 [33 favorites]


For example, we had a shitstorm of a thread over a professor evaluation telling the teacher to "teach naked." Then on the Emmy's the other night, Amy Poehler and Tina Fey gave Neil Patrick Harris the constructive criticism to take off his pants and twerk. I get that it's a joke, but really, if it's not okay in one context, why is it in the other?

Consent? Societal power differentials? The motive of the parties involved? The incidence rate of sexual violence? Take your pick.

But I guess what I'm asking is, why is it so obvious that that's the joke here, and it is never that clear when the joke is about violence against women? Why is it that THAT is never "just a joke?"

Because violence against women is a real, widespread, pervasive thing. Also, because if an MRA or other misogynist is making the joke, they're doing it because they support that kind of thing, whether it be literally or culturally.

Or on preview, basically what KathrynT said.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:12 PM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


So a joke about a woman raping a man...funny?? Punching up and all.
posted by Nahum Tate at 12:13 PM on September 24, 2013


But I guess what I'm asking is, why is it so obvious that that's the joke here, and it is never that clear when the joke is about violence against women?

I'm not speaking for anyone except myself, but I think they are funny because the equivalent institutional oppression of men that would make "misandry" a remotely equivalent and chronic societal problem is about as much a fantasy as the Eye of Sauron appearing on top of the Chrysler building.

I find it okay to laugh about this for the same reason I find it okay to enjoy Lord of the Rings without having to (seriously) consider the problematic nature of the slaughter of orcs: there is not a glimmer of a hope of a chance that these rhymes will ever reflect reality in the way that a gender-reversed version would.
posted by griphus at 12:14 PM on September 24, 2013 [30 favorites]


If the genders were reversed this wouldn't be funny because violence against women is actually a thing, as opposed to springing from the minds of angry, frightened men with persecution complexes.
posted by brundlefly at 12:14 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


Drinky Die: “The power dynamics only inform the scale of how wrong what you are doing is.”

This seems to be the crux of your argument, and it's an interesting idea. I don't believe it's true, though. I mean: for a joke to be wrong because it presents a real threat, the threat has to be credible. I think at this point it's clear that there is no credible threat of evil bands of man-castrating feminist vigilantes running around and slitting throats.

me: “The barb of the joke is supposed to be that angry MRAs are often claiming that the pendulum has swung, that feminism has gone too far, and that the world hates and reviles men.”

ThatFuzzyBastard: “Or at least finds jokes about murdering them for their gender to be hilarious.”

Well, there are a couple of obvious responses to that, I think. The first is that The Toast (and all of us here) is not "the world," nor would (I think) the world particularly care much for this type of humor. The second is that these aren't really jokes about murdering men; they're jokes about how silly it is to think that people are banding together to murder men. Maybe somebody can show me news reports of feminists actually getting together en masse to murder men for their gender; until then, however, I will see this as a satire of the MRA nightmare.

jennaratrix: “But I guess what I'm asking is, why is it so obvious that that's the joke here, and it is never that clear when the joke is about violence against women? Why is it that THAT is never 'just a joke?'”

As I said above: credible threat. The idea that a bunch of feminists will get together to actually kill all men is preposterous to be silly and humorous. The idea that a bunch of men will get together and rape and murder all women is actually credible.

This makes us uncomfortable, because there's a double standard. As you said:

“I get that it's a joke, but really, if it's not okay in one context, why is it in the other?”

It's okay in one case and not in the other because there is a double standard. There must be a double standard whenever there are separate categories with different contextual considerations. On the face of it, it seems like inequality when we approach relationships differently according to the ethnic or gender background of the person we're relating to, but it's natural, and in fact it's the only way to preserve equality. If I have a friend whose uncle killed himself with a shotgun, I am not going to make jokes about shotguns around him. That's not because I respect him any less than the people who are cool with shotgun jokes; on the contrary, he deserves to remain as unperturbed by gross references to painful circumstances as they do, and the only way to preserve that equality is to take into account the circumstances on all sides.

Women have historically been treated differently from men. This is a fact we can't avoid. That fact means that there will naturally be some differences in the way we deal with the male legacy as opposed to the female legacy. That may seem like inequality, but in fact acknowledging that is the only way to work toward equality, I think.
posted by koeselitz at 12:16 PM on September 24, 2013 [12 favorites]


So a joke about a woman raping a man...funny?? Punching up and all

No, because rape isn't funny, and when women rape men it is not funny.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:16 PM on September 24, 2013 [11 favorites]


1. the people laughing at this are not by definition the exact same people who find every other kind of joke unfunny. It's just on the same website. Some of us find many kinds of jokes to be funny. Others, fewer. Some few of us might even still laugh at Andrew Dice Clay every now and then by accident. Other jokes really aren't that relevant to these jokes.

2. But in so far as they are relevant, making a joke about the devil or a My Little Pony killing someone is way funnier than making a joke about a murderer killing someone that's just a law of comedy--the unexpected. These images are surreal, and the intent is making fun of the paranoid nonsense that is MRA. That's why they are different.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:18 PM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


It's not even about punching up and punching down.

What's interesting about this joke is that the humor partly depends on the recognition of women as a class of people who have *some* reason to band together and murder their patriarchal overlords. The humor also depends on the fact that women have not, in fact, done so. No man anywhere ever has been afraid of being murdered by a pack of vengeful feminists.

To treat humor as a mathematical abstraction in which we can freely substitute for "x" without changing the meaning of the formula is utterly bizarre.
posted by leopard at 12:18 PM on September 24, 2013 [11 favorites]


Nahum Tate: “So a joke about a woman raping a man...funny?? Punching up and all.”

"Punching up?" What exactly does that mean?
posted by koeselitz at 12:19 PM on September 24, 2013


[10,000 years of institutionalized, entrenched X-ism]

[ironic response]

"OH NOW WE SEE WHO THE REAL X-ISTS ARE"
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:19 PM on September 24, 2013 [71 favorites]


see the rape thing is a whole separate can of worms because actually when it comes to the idea of men being raped - well, men are kind of oppressed on that subject! by which i mean there are plenty of people in real life who claim really loudly that "men can't be raped." since that's an actual harmful belief ACTUALLY HELD IN REAL LIFE, a joke about it would be reinforcing, rather than sending up, problematic issues

it's very very different
posted by titus n. owl at 12:20 PM on September 24, 2013 [35 favorites]


I'm a man, and I find it funny.

Sadly, part of the reason I can find it funny is that I know the odds of me being assaulted or murdered because of my gender are incredibly slim.


And also I like creepy nursery rhymes.

A is for Amy who fell down the stairs
B is for Basil, assaulted by bears...

posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:20 PM on September 24, 2013 [13 favorites]


"Punching up?" What exactly does that mean?
posted by koeselitz at 8:19 PM on September 24 [+] [!]

I think you should check out the concept of Punching Up vs Punching Down.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:07 PM on September 24 [+] [!]

posted by Grangousier at 12:21 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


However, if these were nursery rhymes about the oppression or murder of women, all just for a laugh, well, that wouldn't be funny.

A lot of nursery rhymes do do this already. Take the complete words to Jack and Jill:
Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pail of water.
Jack fell down and broke his crown,
And Jill came tumbling after.

Up Jack got, and home did trot,
As fast as he could caper;
To old Dame Dob, who patched his nob
With vinegar and brown paper.

Then Jill came in, and she did grin,
To see Jack's paper plaster;
Her mother whipt her, across her knee,
For causing Jack's disaster.
Now, most nursery rhymes aren't usually quite as bald in their statements, but women do kind of get shafted a lot; it's just subtle, and part of the reason why it's subtle is because we're all just sort of used to it. It's like fish noticing water.

What makes this funny isn't so much the fact that "it's talking about killing men lol", it's because it's an Emperors-New-Clothes thing - where it takes that subtle prejudice that we're all used to and pointing a big huge arrow at it BY turning it around and making it be about men instead.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:21 PM on September 24, 2013 [33 favorites]


I feel like a bad feminist, but I'm really struggling with this. I get that it's not funny to make jokes about women getting beat up because it actually happens, and I understand the concept of punching up vs. punching down (I'd read that bit quite a while ago), but I think there's an argument to be made that joking about violence against anyone is counter-productive to the goals of an equal society. I know, we don't have an equal society; but as much as I'm getting a giggle out of these, I don't think they help. I'm definitely rolling my eyes at the "Oh, won't someone think of us poor menz" crap that always, ALWAYS comes up in these threads, but I don't think it's useful to dismiss all those concerns out of hand just because we women have been oppressed for so long. At what point do we examine our own motives and prejudices, and maybe admit that some jokes just aren't appropriate, no matter who the target is?

I know, I know, when the inequality no longer exists. Until then, it's open season? I don't know how I feel about that.

I'm not explaining myself well, and I am NOT NOT NOT arguing against anyone who has taken the time to answer the questions I posed, so thank you. Hope it wasn't too much 'feminism 101.'
posted by jennaratrix at 12:22 PM on September 24, 2013 [12 favorites]


So a joke about a woman raping a man...funny?? Punching up and all.

A joke in which a person goes into a bar and there's an animal in the bar that you would not expect to see there and then a situation arises in which a bet is made: Funny?
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:22 PM on September 24, 2013 [9 favorites]


Just to be clear murder is in fact really pretty funny, at least a little, most of the time.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:22 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


misandry don't real, y'all.
posted by bfootdav at 12:23 PM on September 24, 2013 [15 favorites]


If you rearranged all the letters in this thread so that they spelled out a string of racist insults, that would be pretty racist.

Makes you think.
posted by oliverburkeman at 12:24 PM on September 24, 2013 [27 favorites]


This isn't hard. We know that feminists don't like the sexualization of female comic book characters. Some people who felt this way drew some male comic book characters in the same poses. Why is this not a double standard? After all, the men are posed in the same way as the women, and since feminists don't like the female poses, they sure shouldn't like the males posed in the same way, right? Double standard!

It doesn't take a whole lot of thought to see why this logic fails. It fails because the drawings of the men were not about sexualizing the males. They were actually about the female poses! They were a way of making a point about the how the female poses were ridiculous. The context here matters, and it is exactly the context that tells us what the joke is about, and why it isn't a double standard. Pretty much everyone understands this with the male superheroes in sexualized poses.

Likewise, these jokes are not about killing men. These jokes are about ridiculous beliefs that certain men have about feminists. Jokes about killing women are often simply making light of the problems our society has with women (abuse, sexualized violence, etc). This is not OK. But these jokes, though they may on the surface look similar, are not. They are about something entirely.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 12:24 PM on September 24, 2013 [78 favorites]


I went from laughing at the actual jokes, to taking them too literally, back to laughing at the actual jokes again.

I over-thought the whole thing. I blame men.
posted by jennaratrix at 12:27 PM on September 24, 2013 [39 favorites]


I think there's an argument to be made that joking about violence against anyone is counter-productive to the goals of an equal society. I know, we don't have an equal society; but as much as I'm getting a giggle out of these, I don't think they help.

I think that's a bit of an idealistic way to look at it. I see lots of people--and let's be honest here, almost all of them men--who think "but that's not equality," because they're talking about a different meaning of the word "equality." To them, "equality" means no one makes fun of each other, or if they do it's at least in similar quantities with similar motive behind it. But we don't live in that perfect world, and claiming that one is anywhere similar to the other is ridiculous. To say that someone is being unfair or engaging in double standards in that case means that you have to willfully ignore pretty much all of the current and historical realities about equality and the lack thereof.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:28 PM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


Actually, jennaratrix, I really appreciate the thoughtful way you're asking these difficult questions. It's not automatic, and shouldn't be automatic, to assert that murder jokes and such are acceptable. I disagree with your concern about this, but I think it's a valid concern, given that you recognize and are explicitly disavowing the lazy and fallacious equivalence argument that's usually made about something like this. You recognize that the two things aren't really comparable but that an element that's shared by both may be problematic on its own terms.

That is to say, if women weren't killed and subject to sexual violence because of their gender, and in fact if no one was, then maybe jokes about killing would still be problematic. That's a perfectly valid question to raise.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:29 PM on September 24, 2013 [10 favorites]


I get that it's a joke, but really, if it's not okay in one context, why is it in the other?

In the instance you cited, among other things, one is an educational situation and the other is a scripted, choreographed entertainment situation. If Amy Poehler was teaching a class and told one of her students to "take off his pants and twerk," there would be—and be cause for— justifiable outrage, right? The fact that one is funny (for some value of "funny") and one is outrageous is a consequence of context.

Also, as others note, the humor here isn't in how likely something like this is, but how unlikely.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:30 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


I blame men.

I'm going to allow it.
*bangs gavel, adjusts powdered wig, gets hit in face with pie*
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:30 PM on September 24, 2013 [10 favorites]


I feel like a bad feminist, but I'm really struggling with this. I get that it's not funny to make jokes about women getting beat up because it actually happens, and I understand the concept of punching up vs. punching down (I'd read that bit quite a while ago), but I think there's an argument to be made that joking about violence against anyone is counter-productive to the goals of an equal society. I know, we don't have an equal society; but as much as I'm getting a giggle out of these, I don't think they help. I'm definitely rolling my eyes at the "Oh, won't someone think of us poor menz" crap that always, ALWAYS comes up in these threads, but I don't think it's useful to dismiss all those concerns out of hand just because we women have been oppressed for so long. At what point do we examine our own motives and prejudices, and maybe admit that some jokes just aren't appropriate, no matter who the target is?

I think in a situation like this it's a matter of personal taste and nobody's exactly wrong, because the stakes are so low (i.e. no actual existing misandry is being added to by these jokes). So if you're the kind of person who always tries to be the bigger person and be patient and not cause people pain even if you think they kind of deserve it, then you probably won't be making these jokes or laughing at them. But if you're the kind of person who is less patient and who is OK with hurting some people a bit if it's the price of some good gallows humor among the out-group, then you'll make the jokes. I think both positions are pretty much equally valid.
posted by ostro at 12:31 PM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


I over-thought the whole thing. I blame men.

That's it! Now you're getting the hang of it
posted by medusa at 12:32 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


I would ask that as you punch up by joking about murdering a baby, that you keep in mind that many men and boys are legitimately victims of abuse.

It is not nearly a problem on the same level as violence against women, but it is in fact a real problem with real victims who do in fact exist. When possible it's a good idea to show a generous amount of sensitivity when speaking in a public forum victims of abuse may be reading. Once you get into violent humor there is a possibility you may be closer to knifing up than punching up which may or may not be as justified. Men as a group are not victimized by this sort of humor, but there may be some collateral damage it's better to avoid if there might be a more sensitive way to make the satirical point.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:32 PM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


"OH NOW WE SEE WHO THE REAL X-ISTS ARE"

If you rearranged all the letters in this thread so that they spelled out a string of racist insults, that would be pretty racist.

That's not my point.

This isn't the kind of satire that is going to change anyone's opinion on violence against women. It's just so you can laugh, "U MAD?" at the misogynist MRA crowd who would never touch Metafilter with a 10 foot pole. Enjoy that, I guess.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:34 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


It's just so you can laugh

Exactly!
posted by RogerB at 12:36 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


This isn't the kind of satire that is going to change anyone's opinion on violence against women.

....Maybe it's not meant to.

It's just so you can laugh, "U MAD?" at the misogynist MRA crowd who would never touch Metafilter with a 10 foot pole.

Humor is occasionally allowed to be for a select audience. It doesn't always have to Change The Hearts And Minds Of A Nation or anything.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:36 PM on September 24, 2013 [26 favorites]


I would ask that as you punch up by joking about murdering a baby, that you keep in mind that many men and boys are legitimately victims of abuse.

I agree. If anyone reading this thread has had the traumatic experience of being murdered as a child by a man-hating parent, I would like to tell that person that we sincerely apologize and also please say hello to my dad for me.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:36 PM on September 24, 2013 [22 favorites]


"Satire" has to have a purpose.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 12:37 PM on September 24, 2013


"Satire" has to have a purpose.

What's wrong with "letting the women laugh at things for a change" being the purpose?

And who said this was satire in the first place?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:38 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


If it matters, I think these are funny AND I think the word "dongle" is funny because it does seem like a penis word. These are not mutually exclusive.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 12:39 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


I agree. If anyone reading this thread has had the traumatic experience of being murdered as a child by a man-hating parent, I would like to tell that person that we sincerely apologize and also please say hello to my dad for me.

For a kid, the reasons for abuse can be extremely difficult to understand and, "If I were more like my sister..." is something I promise you some male victims of abuse have thought at various times. I'm just saying, try and be generous in your sensitivity.
posted by Drinky Die at 12:39 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Ivan - or maybe, they would be totally okay because everyone would know, without having to put a lot of thought into it, that they were jokes. When men joke around about hurting women, there's often an undercurrent of truth to it; and even if there isn't, we women think there might be. It makes the joke a lot less funny.

To be clear, I'm not even sure I have any concerns; but others do, and I like to try to give equal weight to points that are brought up, and make sure that I'm thinking everything all the way through. I have blinders, too; I'm coming at this from the perspective of a woman, and I think I sometimes outright dismiss comments made by men on this topic because I think, "Well, WTF does he know about it?" I really don't want to do that; I don't want to get stuck thinking I'm always right about something without at least trying to parse out what those other perspectives might be. I don't always (or even usually) change my mind, but I do feel more justified in my viewpoint if I've honestly tried to understand others. The inability or unwillingness of some here to listen when someone is trying to explain an opposing viewpoint is one of my biggest pet peeves, so I try not to be like that.
posted by jennaratrix at 12:40 PM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


This isn't the kind of satire that is going to change anyone's opinion on violence against women. It's just so you can laugh, "U MAD?" at the misogynist MRA crowd who would never touch Metafilter with a 10 foot pole. Enjoy that, I guess.

Your original statement was "Is this one of those exceptions to your "ironic Xism is just Xism" rule?" The answer is "Yes, because the ironic Xism you're talking about is laden with actual explicit or implicit desire for prejudice, whereas this is making fun of people who do that."
posted by zombieflanders at 12:40 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


I noted this one above less because it's HA HA HI-LARIOUS and more because it so perfectly preserves the rhythm of the original.

But I also love the ones that end with an absurdist and non-scanning take on gendered violence. When they work - like the Lizzie Borden one - they make me laugh with surprise.

I think making people laugh in surprise and feel uncomfortable is a perfectly cromulent reason for these to exist. Especially since to my knowledge never in history have women ever gone on a collective and socially accepted rampage against their male rapists and abusers, let alone raped and murdered and enslaved them in the course of war cuz that's just what you do in war, you know?
posted by rtha at 12:43 PM on September 24, 2013 [18 favorites]


The #1 news of the internet for the past 2 weeks is the latest release from a game which includes killing prostitutes as a fun "easter egg" of gameplay. In a world where prostitutes are killed at a tremendous rate compared the general population and who are most frequently the target of serial killers due to their vulnerable position as sex workers.

Any complaint about this constant ceaseless violence, or jokes about killing women, beating them, is being "over sensitive" because these constant violent images aren't "real" or are "just jokes". Women who ever express feminist views challenging this violent status quo are termed "man haters" and "misandrists".

So in a sense of comraderie and satire, a group of people get together to make fun of this "misandry" bullshit. And SUDDENLY, nursery rhymes that make fun of the baseless fears about "misandrists" are WRONG and UPSETTING because you're talking about KILLING *PEOPLE*???

The short version of this post is:

All around the mulberry bush
The monkey chased the weasel;
The monkey thought 'twas all in fun
Pop! The women shot all the men who believe in misandry and then drank mulberry wine in celebration
posted by SassHat at 12:45 PM on September 24, 2013 [68 favorites]


Hey diddle diddle,
The cat and the fiddle,
Concern trolling derails the thread.
There's no good reason to talk about men's hurt feelings here,
Let's make up more jokes instead.
posted by RogerB at 12:46 PM on September 24, 2013 [78 favorites]


I'm a humorless feminist if ever there was, but even us calculated, bloodthirsty separatists are sometimes too exhausted to take yet another weary wade through the eternal spring of "Gotcha! Misandry IS real!" So rather than laying another comment on the altar of the ascendant exterminationist matriarchy, I will just leave this here.

Georgie Porgie, Puddin' and Pie,
Kissed the girls and made them cry,
When the boys came out to play
The High Court found them guilty of sexual harrassment.

It has been a capital crime since the ascension of the Great Mother.

posted by divined by radio at 12:48 PM on September 24, 2013 [42 favorites]


I'm not sure why exactly but I would pay money to see a reading of these performed by Willem Dafoe.


in drag
posted by Doleful Creature at 12:52 PM on September 24, 2013 [9 favorites]


"Satire" has to have a purpose.

Oh, this definitely has a purpose! It might not be a purpose that appeals to YOU, though. That's OK.
posted by KathrynT at 12:53 PM on September 24, 2013 [19 favorites]


The itsy bitsy spider climbed up the waterspout
Down came the rain and washed the spider out
Out came a male who needed to mansplain
so the itsy bitsy spider was too annoyed to listen and hopped an outbound train.
posted by MoonOrb at 12:53 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


"The inability or unwillingness of some here to listen when someone is trying to explain an opposing viewpoint is one of my biggest pet peeves, so I try not to be like that."

Yeah, I think that's admirable. I've played the role you're playing here elsewhere many times.

The one thing to worry about, though, is whether you're inadvertently in bed with those who you definitely don't want to find yourself in bed with. This is a specific and pointed concern in my person experience with MRA, because I do happen to believe that there are a few narrow contexts in which men have been systematically oppressed and, more generally, that in many ways the patriarchy is very damaging to men, so in a world without MRA misogynists, I'd be someone who brings up those issues. And I was, twenty-five years ago. But as the MRA crowd coopted that whole discussion, they've poisoned it, and I stay away from it because I refuse to inadvertently ever lend them any legitimacy.

That decision may offend many people's sense of idealism, but it's a pragmatic decision. And I elliptically raise some of those issues still, anyway, from time to time.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:54 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


[ThatFuzzyBastard, cut it out.]
posted by cortex at 12:55 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


Besides, I think it's common knowledge we don't murder ALL men, just MRAs.
posted by SassHat at 12:57 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


I guarantee there will be men who will encounter this article (even linked in a ragey MISANDRY!!!! way) from Reddit or Facebook or wherever, and end up comparing their own reaction to a joke that's a little mean at worst and has no power to actually harm them to the 'just a...' jokes they make and defend, and begin a process of realisation that ultimately leads to them changing their core beliefs on this stuff. I think there's a tendency here to vastly underestimate the value of confrontation to change minds. It can be a slow process and shouldn't be judged by the immediate knee-jerk responses.

I could probably round up a dozen dudes I know or have conversed with in the last month or so whose own story of getting over their sexism started with exactly the sort of 'over-aggressive', 'choir-preaching' feminism I often see labelled counter-productive, and who had a long history of looking right past approaches they could easily ignore. There's an awful lot of value in meeting men halfway too of course, and thankfully a lot of people willing to do that, but in my experience confrontation has the power to reach a wholly different set of potentially awesome guys who need a good hard metaphorical kick to get them thinking.
posted by emmtee at 12:58 PM on September 24, 2013 [11 favorites]


Jack be nimble
Jack be quick
Jack run from the
Castration patrol
posted by emmtee at 1:00 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


The thing is, a LOT of humor by an oppressed group about the oppressors is pretty rough-and-tumble. If you're an oppressor-class person who isn't awful, you may well feel bad. I mean, all those "white women are such ugly mayo-faces who think they can dance" humor on tumblr makes me feel bad. It does. It's intended to - that's not its primary intent, but it's not intended to be something that gives me a happy little chortle. It would be pretty bizarre, in fact, if I responded to that kind of humor by saying "yep, that's right, it amused me no end that white people can't dance, and that amusement is the limit of my response to living in a white supremacist culture". It's not humor that's intended to make me laugh.

Is this entirely fair? Maybe not. I mean, I heard a lot about how ugly I was as a kid, I was bullied a lot for my body and physicality, and hearing a lot of messages about ugly white people who can't dance brings back some shitty memories. This is particularly true because, since I recognize that we live in a white supremacist culture and that white people are always overpraised, I find it especially easy to believe that we really are de facto ugly, graceless and useless in every respect.

But! It's not really very helpful for me to bring this up, is it? It doesn't really advance the cause of racial justice to have me getting into every single angry-humor interaction to remind everyone about my feelings and the feelings of analogous bullied white people.

I could, on technical points, sit and feel bad, remind myself that white people are ugly and useless just like I always believed about myself since a child. I've certainly done this.

But really, the best strategy is that if oppressed folks are having an angry-humor fest that is upsetting to you and you none the less agree with the politics of the oppressed people, you just let the whole thing alone, close the tab and do something else. I mean, I think that people of color should be able to mock white people, even though I myself do not enjoy mockery. So, in order to forward that mockery and prevent myself from making it all about me, I'm just going to step back and let the conversation be among people of color.

Similarly, I think it's okay to feel hurt or upset by rough-and-tumble humor, but in order to avoid making it All About You, it's important to recognize those feelings, do a little reality check and move on.
posted by Frowner at 1:03 PM on September 24, 2013 [48 favorites]


The Queen of Hearts
She made some tarts,
All on a summer's day;
The Knave of Hearts
He stole those tarts,
And took them clean away.
The Queen of Hearts
Had him drawn and quartered
And displayed his corpse with a sign that read "MRAs Beware!"
posted by SassHat at 1:05 PM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


I think that people of color should be able to mock white people, even though I myself do not enjoy mockery.

But why? I mean, I can see how it's fun to make fun of the people who you regard as your oppressors, but it seems like the benefits are low, and the risk of collateral damage is high. And just saying "Close the browser and walk away" seems dangerously close to deciding "Nothing those people say matters."
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 1:11 PM on September 24, 2013


Girls and boys, come out to play,
Misandry shines as bright as day;
I'm not joking it emits light when you hurt men,
It's a fucking miracle.
posted by emmtee at 1:11 PM on September 24, 2013 [17 favorites]


Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All the king's horses and all the kings men
Were crushed to death by Humpty's oppressive misandry.
posted by bfootdav at 1:12 PM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


white people can't dance

They can't jump, either, but, boy, can they run the fuck out of things.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:12 PM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


This Is Just To Say

I have eaten
the plums
that were in
the icebox

and which
you were probably
saving
for breakfast

They were delicious
so sweet
and so cold--
you're next
posted by not_on_display at 1:13 PM on September 24, 2013 [24 favorites]


You stay classy, internet feminism.
posted by ubernostrum at 1:13 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


'Twas brillig, and the slithy frells
Did gyre and gimble in the web;
All whimsy were the Jezebels,
And the Toasts and Hairpins outgreb.

"Beware the Feminazi, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Misandry bird, and shun
The frumious, banned: her snatch!"

He took his dickwolf sword in hand:
Long the womynxome foe he mocked--
So rested he by the Phallus tree,
Going off again half-cocked.

And as in oafish jokes he stood,
The Feminazi, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the turgid wood,
And burbled as she came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The dickwolf blade went rapey-joke!
She left the thread, and to her he said
It was her humor that was broke.

"And hast thou slain the Feminazi?
Cold comfort to you, my beamish boy!"
As MRA, he'd won the day,
But no one shared his joy.
posted by RogerB at 1:14 PM on September 24, 2013 [77 favorites]


SassHat: "Besides, I think it's common knowledge we don't murder ALL men, just MRAs."

This fits vaguely into my hazy idea for "Handmaiden's Tale 2: The revengening". Anyway, I'll be OK being a "house man" when the gynarchy comes.
posted by boo_radley at 1:15 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


ubernostrum: "You stay classy, internet feminism."

you're supposed to do it in the form of a nursery rhyme
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 1:15 PM on September 24, 2013 [34 favorites]


shark be nimble
shark get set
shark jump over
the internet

awful flat-footed parody in service of your favorite cause in your favorite context is still awful flat-footed parody

and no, i do not say that because men are targeted here - i could easily imagine something hilarious targeting men

this isn't it

it's quite possible that that a markov-chained bot mixing misandric phrases and nursery rhymes could have done better, at least once in awhile - or a million female monkeys with huge resentment of their banana-hogging mates typing away might have done better

it's easily one of the worst things i've ever seen here

"but other than that, how did you like the play, mr lincoln?"
posted by pyramid termite at 1:15 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


But why? I mean, I can see how it's fun to make fun of the people who you regard as your oppressors, but it seems like the benefits are low, and the risk of collateral damage is high.

because sometimes you're fucking angry and you want to let off steam by making jokes about the source of your anger without sitting around holding a goddamn committee meeting about how a cis white dude's gonna respond to your emotions tbh
posted by titus n. owl at 1:16 PM on September 24, 2013 [51 favorites]


Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men,
Couldn't put Humpty together again.
But they were now in one place and ripe for the feminist coup,
See what can be achieved by pushing men off of walls.
posted by emmtee at 1:17 PM on September 24, 2013 [18 favorites]


you're supposed to do it in the form of a nursery rhyme

Here's a limerick:

There once was a man named Earl,
Who got no help because he wasn't a girl,
He tried to fix it for others,
But his cause got smothered,
So he killed himself but it's OK because misandry don't real

Am I doing it right?
posted by ubernostrum at 1:18 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


little sullen.
posted by boo_radley at 1:19 PM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


Too much angst.
posted by jennaratrix at 1:20 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


But why? I mean, I can see how it's fun to make fun of the people who you regard as your oppressors, but it seems like the benefits are low, and the risk of collateral damage is high. And just saying "Close the browser and walk away" seems dangerously close to deciding "Nothing those people say matters."

But you're implying that all messages are intended for all people. Many messages are accessible to most people, and we can find meaning in things that aren't intended for us - but that doesn't mean that the speaker is addressing us or needs to care what we think. Consider Malcolm X, right? For most of his life, he really wasn't interested in addressing white people (unlike James Baldwin, for instance, who had a really different rhetorical approach). Malcolm X was speaking to African-Americans, centering his/their perspectives and goals. It would be churlish to demand that Malcolm X consider his every word for how it would make me feel. That doesn't mean I can't find Malcolm X's work interesting or get meaning from it, but I'm not the primary audience.

On the "it doesn't matter what those people say" thing - all around the world, hundreds of thousands of people of color carry on conversations all the time! I can't pay attention to all of them and it would be weird and perverse to think that I was some kind of White Person NSA who should try. "Not needing to hear every word" doesn't mean "not caring about a person".

Or consider your best friend, right? Maybe your best friend wants to grouse a little bit about an annoying habit that you have. (I mean, I have been known to grouse a little about friends.) Do you really want to hear every word? Doesn't your friend have the right to a venting space? If your friend is talking to others, can't you assume that they are not wanting - for whatever reason - to talk to you?

Being able to step back intellectually and emotionally is both useful and healthy.
posted by Frowner at 1:20 PM on September 24, 2013 [21 favorites]


RogerB: marry me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:20 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


Or is that a weird thing for a woman to say to a man in a thread like this?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:21 PM on September 24, 2013 [9 favorites]


Only weird because it wasn't in lullaby form.
posted by MoonOrb at 1:22 PM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


There once was a boy named Nathaniel.
An older woman molested his wang-dangle.
He got hauled into court,
And made to pay child support,
Because "he wanted it anyway" was our culture's angle and he probably wore a fedora or something.
posted by ubernostrum at 1:22 PM on September 24, 2013 [10 favorites]


For the love of god please stop.
posted by griphus at 1:23 PM on September 24, 2013 [10 favorites]


Q) What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?

A) YOU SHOULD SEEK MEDICAL ATTENTION IMMEDIATELY.
posted by Justinian at 1:24 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


The Lioness and Unicorn,
Were fighting for the crown,
The Lioness beat Unicorn,
Blunting his horn and double-circumcising him in the process.

Some gave them white bread,
And some gave them brown;
Some gave them plum cake
But no-one gave any respect to his little opinions ever again.
posted by comealongpole at 1:25 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


There once was a feminist named Jill,
Who said "Sleep sex is rape? What swill!"
She defended rape on her blog,
Leaving some people agog,
This is why some men face a battle that's uphill.
posted by ubernostrum at 1:26 PM on September 24, 2013


I would happily be sacrificed upon the Earth Mother's altar as long as it was preceded by amusing chants like these.
posted by charred husk at 1:27 PM on September 24, 2013


There was a little girl
Who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her forehead

And when she was good
She was very very good
But when she was bad
She sharpened it to a killing point and the rest is really implied from here on out
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 1:28 PM on September 24, 2013 [30 favorites]


Itsy Bitsy Spider crawled up the water spout.
Down came the rain, and washed the spider out.
Bitsy found and bit a man
And turned him cold and blue,
'Cause that's what Bitsy Spider
Was engineered to do.
posted by emmtee at 1:28 PM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


As I was going to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
Well you can rest assured that polygamist motherfucker
Did not make it the rest of the way to St Ives
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:28 PM on September 24, 2013 [36 favorites]


You keep taking back the power, ubernostrum.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 1:29 PM on September 24, 2013 [47 favorites]


Rub-a-dub-dub,
Three men in a tub,
And who do you think they were?
No one, for identity is moot inside Gaia's Oubliette
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:29 PM on September 24, 2013 [11 favorites]


...sacrificed upon the Earth Mother's altar...

If circumstances should come to pass that I pass out in the woods and am eaten by a bear, I demand this be cited as the cause of death.
posted by griphus at 1:30 PM on September 24, 2013 [10 favorites]


You keep taking back the power, ubernostrum.

Don't mind me. The problems I'm talking about obviously don't real. Those people who got beat up or raped or whatever don't really count, not as real victims of real rape or violence, and it's A-OK to derisively mock anyone who tries to stand up for them, because that makes you a totally awesome human being.
posted by ubernostrum at 1:32 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Diddle, diddle, dumpling, my son John,
Went to bed with his trousers on;
One shoe off, and the other shoe on,
All this patriarchy isn't going to smash itself.
posted by jennaratrix at 1:32 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


You probably will need to print that up on a little card you keep in your wallet, griphus, for your demand to be met.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:32 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


ubernostrum: what exactly is your point? Are you just going to keep being faux-sarcastic until you have the fight you want to have, or what?
posted by KathrynT at 1:33 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


Ladybird, ladybird, fly away home
Your house is on fire and your children will burn
No, wait, I take that back
This is your chance to free yourself from the shackles of domestic servitude
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:35 PM on September 24, 2013 [25 favorites]


ubernostrum: "it's A-OK to derisively mock anyone who tries to stand up for them"

Maybe make a Real And Meaningful post about those incidents? That would be a more interesting stand.
posted by boo_radley at 1:35 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


what exactly is your point?

That maybe this whole thing isn't as cutesy-harmless as it's being made out to be, because it serves to shame, mock, silence and erase real victims of real problems?
posted by ubernostrum at 1:36 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


ubernostrum: "Don't mind me. The problems I'm talking about obviously don't real. Those people who got beat up or raped or whatever don't really count, not as real victims of real rape or violence, and it's A-OK to derisively mock anyone who tries to stand up for them, because that makes you a totally awesome human being."

How is pulling them out of your arse as gotcha cards to try and shoot down women who are making jokes about the staggering power differential built into the culture "standing up for them"?
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 1:36 PM on September 24, 2013 [20 favorites]


Don't mind me. The problems I'm talking about obviously don't real.

You basically need to either drop the sarcasm or drop this entirely at this point. I get where you're coming from but this is a really bad way to approach it.
posted by cortex at 1:36 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


You probably will need to print that up on a little card you keep in your wallet, griphus, for your demand to be met.

I think this advice might work for ubernostrum as well.
posted by MoonOrb at 1:36 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


That maybe this whole thing isn't as cutesy-harmless as it's being made out to be, because it serves to shame, mock, silence and erase real victims of real problems?

Except that it's not doing that. You're just assigning it that role out of convenience.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:37 PM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


I get where you're coming from but this is a really bad way to approach it.

If this FPP is appropriate for Metafilter, then I see nothing bad in how I'm approaching it. Shall we to the MeTa?
posted by ubernostrum at 1:37 PM on September 24, 2013


Shall we to the MeTa?

If you need to talk about this more, yes.
posted by cortex at 1:37 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


ubernostrum: “She defended rape on her blog

I have never heard of this person, and I have no idea about this case, but reading the thing you linked I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, this is what she says:

from article: “I’m not sure it even matters if we call it 'rape' or not (and it doesn’t sound like the boyfriend does call it that). He was sexually violated; whether she intended to or not, that’s the fact of what happened.

I'm not sure how you get from "he was sexually violated... that's the fact" to "she defended rape." But, uh, maybe you can explain that.

Or maybe it's just a derail. Still, your characterization of the blog post is weird, to the point where I don't even really know how people took offense at it. Is there something in the comments there that I'm not seeing or something?
posted by koeselitz at 1:38 PM on September 24, 2013 [11 favorites]


because it serves to shame, mock, silence and erase real victims of real problems?

I don't see anyone who's done that except for you, honestly. Everything you've posted is a way in which the patriarchy, yes, hurts men too -- there's nothing of misandry in any of those examples at all.
posted by KathrynT at 1:38 PM on September 24, 2013 [19 favorites]


Diddle, diddle, dumpling, my son John,
Went to bed with his trousers on,
One shoe off, and one shoe on,
So I threw him down the well, where his father had gone.
posted by comealongpole at 1:40 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm not sure how you get from "he was sexually violated... that's the fact" to "she defended rape." But, uh, maybe you can explain that.

Flip the genders, write something that wishy-washy about "I’m not sure it even matters if we call it "rape" or not", load up with a bunch of comments and related threads which suggest it would be abusive for the victim to express continuing discomfort at being sexually violated, and see how popular you'd be and how long it would take the rest of the internet to go from zero to "rape apologist".

But it's OK, we can totally make fun of anyone who agitates about that. And now I'll see you all on the grey once I've had some fresh air.
posted by ubernostrum at 1:45 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


That maybe this whole thing isn't as cutesy-harmless as it's being made out to be, because it serves to shame, mock, silence and erase real victims of real problems?

I think there's an assumption in this whole conversation that feeling good and comfortable has a moral value. So if there's humor that makes you feel bad or uncomfortable, that's a moral problem; if there's humor that does not tread very softly around painful topics, that's also a moral problem. Satire about bad things is a moral problem.

You know what? Some bad things happened to me when I was younger. Those were real bad things. Sometimes rough-and-tumble humor reminds me of those things and that's upsetting. But that's not a moral failing; it's the nature of a world in which bad things were done to me, and it's the nature of a world where bad things were also done to others and caused them to suffer.

If you need comfort - and sometimes we all do! - seek social environments that are comfortable. If you're sad and stressed, read your favorite soothing book; if you want to learn about the state of the world, you're going to end up reading something more upsetting.

A problem is that we think that if we can just figure out the right ideology, no one will feel bad ever. That's not the case. The world is messed up! Feeling bad is going to happen! Rough and tumble humor will make some people feel bad who should not feel bad! But telling oppressed groups that they should just suck it up and not use humor or irony to talk about oppression is going to cause social harm to those groups!

Somebody is going to get hurt!

And honestly, in the great "who is going to feel hurt" sweepstakes, if the topic is white people then I would rather be the one who feels bad, seeing as how I'm white and all.

When we look at the world honestly, it's painful and scary and there's no comfort in it. Satirical humor better reflects this than cosiness.

~~~~

On another note, this quote from, of all people, Adam Smith:

"A stranger to human nature, who saw the indifference of men about the misery of their inferiors, and the regret and indignation which they feel for the misfortunes and sufferings of those above them, would be apt to imagine, that pain must be more agonizing, and the convulsions of death more terrible to persons of higher rank, than to those of meaner stations."
posted by Frowner at 1:45 PM on September 24, 2013 [20 favorites]


(Also, ubernostrum - you may not believe this, but initially I first actually checked to see if it mocked the rape of men. It doesn't. And I think that's significant.)
posted by koeselitz at 1:46 PM on September 24, 2013 [11 favorites]


Old Mother Hubbard
Went to the cupboard
To get her poor dog a bone
And when she got there
It was revealed that the cupboard was packed to bursting with the skeletons of four former husbands, three obnoxious construction workers, and a mailman
And the dog ate really well for a very long time
posted by rifflesby at 1:50 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


‘O WHERE hae ye been, Lord Randal, my son?
O where hae ye been, my handsome young man?’
‘I hae been to the wild wood; mother, make my bed soon,
For I’m weary wi hunting, and fain wald lie down.’

‘Where gat ye your dinner, Lord Randal, my son?
Where gat ye your dinner, my handsome young man?’
‘I din’d wi my true-love; mother, make my bed soon,
For I’m weary wi hunting, and fain wald lie down.'

‘What gat ye to your dinner, Lord Randal, my son?
What gat ye to your dinner, my handsome young man?’
‘I gat eels boild in broo; mother, make my bed soon,
For I’m weary wi hunting, and fain wald lie down.’

‘What became of your bloodhounds, Lord Randal, my son?
What became of your bloodhounds, my handsome young man?’
‘O they swelld and they died; mother, make my bed soon,
For I’m weary wi hunting, and fain wald lie down.’

‘O I fear ye are poisond, Lord Randal, my son!
O I fear ye are poisond, my handsome young man!’
‘O yes! I am poisond; mother, make my bed soon,
For I’m sick at the heart, and I fain wald lie down.’

'O it serves ye well right, Lord Randal, my son!
O it serves ye well right, Lord Randal, my handsome young man!'
'I spied on the coven, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wald lie down.'

'Dinna test the goddess, Lord Randall, my son
Dinna test the goddess, Lord Randall, my handsome young man!'
'My stanes are like mushrooms, mother, make my bed soon
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wald lie down.'

'Shall ye rest at the kirk, Lord Randall, my son
Shall ye rest at the kirk, Lord Randall, my handsome young man?'
'Furrow me for corn, mother, make my bed soon
For I'm sick at the heart, and I fain wald lie down.'
posted by pyramid termite at 1:51 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


you are supposed to change words to make it funny
posted by elizardbits at 1:52 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


Flip the genders, write something that wishy-washy about "I’m not sure it even matters if we call it "rape" or not", load up with a bunch of comments and related threads which suggest it would be abusive for the victim to express continuing discomfort at being sexually violated, and see how popular you'd be and how long it would take the rest of the internet to go from zero to "rape apologist".

I find it weird that you're going on and on about "call it 'rape' or not" when the very next sentence is "He was sexually violated; whether she intended to or not, that’s the fact of what happened." It's obvious that the blogger isn't defending rape or engaging in rape apologia unless you do some serious cherry-picking and context removal.

But it's OK, we can totally make fun of anyone who agitates about that.

I have no idea what or who you're referring to here. There is nobody at the OP's link or in this thread or in any of your links that's doing anything remotely close to what you're accusing them of.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:53 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


Little Tommy Tucker
Sings for his supper
What shall we give him?
Brown bread and butter.

How shall he cut it,
Without a knife?
How shall he marry,
When the patriarchy raised him on a succession of lies about womens' proper place in society and now women want nothing to do with him.
posted by comealongpole at 1:53 PM on September 24, 2013 [11 favorites]


Frowner, I would like to frolic on a beach with you and get mani-pedis together and then eat sundaes.
posted by custardfairy at 1:53 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


I'm actually pretty mad about how these misandrist nursery rhymes are ignoring the REAL problem, which is the extinction of the Golden Toad. By not mentioning the Golden Toad, these rhymes serve to shame, mock, silence and erase the problems of the Golden Toad. For all that people seem to love "having a laugh", you'll note that at NO point did they mention anything about the Golden Toad.

Anyway if anyone needs me I'll be happy to bring up the plight of the Golden Toad in other unrelated threads where people aren't yet talking about the Golden Toad.
posted by Greg Nog at 1:53 PM on September 24, 2013 [66 favorites]


Greg Nog, I choo-choo-choose you. To have margaritas with, if that's your thing.
posted by jennaratrix at 1:56 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


When you want to derail a fun comedy thread or a serious discussion try new Flip the Genders™ for all your nonsensical needs. Soon nobody will saying anything fun OR thoughtful and everyone will be talking about you and your problems. Yes it's Flip the Genders™ brand Sophistry try it today! By the makers of Flip the Races™
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:57 PM on September 24, 2013 [42 favorites]


Little Boy Blue
Come blow your horn
Because no woman will do it for you now you have herpes.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 1:58 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


you are supposed to change words to make it funny

the last 3 verses are mine and have no precursor in the ballad tradition

i take your comment as a very high compliment - thank you
posted by pyramid termite at 1:58 PM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


Sing a song of sixpence,
A pocket full of rye.
Four and twenty Golden Toads,
Baked in a pie.
posted by griphus at 1:59 PM on September 24, 2013 [15 favorites]


ubernostrum: “Flip the genders, write something that wishy-washy about 'I’m not sure it even matters if we call it 'rape' or not', load up with a bunch of comments and related threads which suggest it would be abusive for the victim to express continuing discomfort at being sexually violated, and see how popular you'd be and how long it would take the rest of the internet to go from zero to 'rape apologist'.”

This is straw-manning of the highest order. The fact that it is common doesn't make it okay. I know some people love to make the "if this were about women, people would be up in arms!" argument, but it doesn't fly here. If the genders were reversed, (a) it would not be the same situation – context matters; but more importantly (b) people would treat this situation the same.

You can sit there and say "no they wouldn't!" all day. But then you've succeeded in shifting the conversation away from a discussion about a thing that happened and toward a discussion of what people might do if certain details were changed.

Regardless of all that, you're making a really complicated situation difficult. Consider the situation if the roles are reversed: guy wakes up; girl seems to be awake and actively signalling that she wants sex; sex begins; girl wakes up and is confused and hurt that something happened without her being conscious. This Jill person's take on it seems to be right, to me: intentionally, the person who woke up to find themselves in the midst of sex they didn't realize they were consenting to is right to feel violated, and they have been raped. (Jill actually says this.) The person who mistook the signs isn't intentionally a rapist, even if rape occurred. It's a complicated situation.

Are you really arguing that a guy in that situation should be strung up and accused of rape and prosecuted for it? Or that a guy who wakes up in the midst of an un-consented-to sex situation has no right to feel violated? It seems to me that both of those things have to be true; the feelings of violation are real, even though the other person really can't be held accountable if all the clear signs pointed to conscious consent.
posted by koeselitz at 2:00 PM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


This is straw-manning of the highest order.

don't you mean straw-womanning, you sexist pig?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:03 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


No, the straw is packed in between the wicker and timbers.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:04 PM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme
Remember me to one who lives there
She once friendzoned me SO HARD and it still bothers me
Ask her if she's seeing anybody right now
C'mon just ask her what's the big deal
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:04 PM on September 24, 2013 [50 favorites]


Potomac Avenue, you forgot to mention the Compare to Rape™ expansion pack.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:04 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


For Advanced Players only.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:05 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


staw-hir, please, it has not chosen a gender presentation.

The irony is people complain feminists don't have a sense of humor and take everything literally then if they show a sense of humor there's a bunch of pearl-clutching and concern trolling about how you can't really be sincere if you have a sense of humor because what about the menz whose feelings might be hurt.

A sailor went to sea sea sea
To see what he could see see see
but all that he could see see see
Was a world of minsandry -dry -dry
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 2:07 PM on September 24, 2013 [30 favorites]


If you think this post is horrible and you want to let us all know how awful we are for liking it, please first read this amazing comment by divined by radio which helpfully lists all the unhelpful things you could (but don't need to!) say in a thread related to gender.
posted by medusa at 2:09 PM on September 24, 2013 [5 favorites]


Hush little baby, don't say a word
Momma's gonna turn you over to the matriarchs, as is the law for all man-children
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:09 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


there's a bunch of pearl-clutching

Given the context, I think you would agree that it's actually testicle-clutching.
posted by medusa at 2:10 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


This is the man that Jane found.

These are the spikes
That stick out from the man that Jane found.

This is the pit
That houses the spikes
That stick out from the man that Jane found.

This is the greased pathway
That leads to the pit
That houses the spikes
That stick out from the man that Jane found.

This is the sign saying FREE PICTURES OF BOOBS
That points to the greased pathway
That leads to the pit
That houses the spikes
That stick out from the man that Jane "found."
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 2:12 PM on September 24, 2013 [30 favorites]


My first reaction to these was shock and dismay that people were joking about murder. Gender-motivated murder!
Then I realized that the shock and dismay were because I'd never heard a joke before that was about violence against *my* gender.

I've heard my share about the other gender, though.
posted by rocket88 at 2:12 PM on September 24, 2013 [17 favorites]


I honestly can't remember the last time I LOL'd so much reading a set of blog comments.
posted by cairdeas at 2:23 PM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


But telling oppressed groups that they should just suck it up and not use humor or irony to talk about oppression...

Or sarcasm
or anger
or shrillness
or rudeness

Or any other thing (as defined by the groups with the upper hand, of course) that could ever make people* at all uncomfortable.

*defined as those in upper-hand groups. of course.
posted by rtha at 2:24 PM on September 24, 2013 [17 favorites]


That was excellent, Army Of Kittens. I clearly need to work on my misandry.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 2:25 PM on September 24, 2013


Meta
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:26 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


FWIW I can't think of a better medium for this than the nursery rhyme.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 2:28 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


So, forget about whether this is "OK" or not, or whether or not it is equivalent to actual genuine misogyny. Can I just say as a guy that I find these somewhat mean-spirited and insulting? I'm not really part of this ongoing conversation that seems to be happening about MRA's. I think that's a pretty small and weird minority, from what little I know about them. So perhaps I lack the sophistication to appreciate these jokes. I just think they're kind of unpleasant.
posted by Edgewise at 2:32 PM on September 24, 2013 [4 favorites]


Welcome to the other half of the world's everyday life I guess.
posted by elizardbits at 2:34 PM on September 24, 2013 [50 favorites]


I just think they're kind of unpleasant.

Do you find "normal" nursery rhymes to be equally unpleasant?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 2:34 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


Social Justice Warrioring annoys me as much as the next entity, and I find them fucking hilarious. Because they are funny.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:34 PM on September 24, 2013


However, if these were nursery rhymes about the oppression or murder of women, all just for a laugh, well, that wouldn't be funny.

The thing of it is, a good number of them are gender-reversed examples of the shit that women around the world actually experience.

"One a penny, two a penny, hot young girls," "1, 2, buckle my shoe; 3, 4, women can't vote," etc. New born girls are killed because they're worthless. Women are raped because they're prey. Etc.

There is grim humour in the shoe being put on the other foot. It holds a mirror up to our world and shows us what is wrong.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:35 PM on September 24, 2013 [11 favorites]


I find these somewhat mean-spirited and insulting?

Multiply that times a hundred instances per day and maybe you'll get a whiff of what it's like to be a woman on the "make me a sandwich" internet.
posted by SassHat at 2:37 PM on September 24, 2013 [42 favorites]


Peter, Peter pumpkin-eater
Had a wife and couldn't keep her
Put her in a pumpkin shell
Wher she proceeded to have females visitors at all hours, satellite TV & broadband, mid-week sex-toy parties, and pizza delivery
While Peter kept years of cold, companionless nights in their cottage, till the rainy night when he was killed in his sleep by the stealthy femassassins from a previous nursery rhyme fresh from a throw-down at the Party Pumpkin.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 2:39 PM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


I'm a guy and I think they're hysterical.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 2:41 PM on September 24, 2013


As always, if you think a characterization of problematic behavior ("whites are racist", "men are rapists", "the 1% are scum", etc.) by people with less social capital or power than you--complaining about real problems in their lives--is personally aimed at you because you are a member of the criticized group (you're white, you're a man, you're rich, etc.):

Maybe pause to think about why you're so defensive?
posted by maxwelton at 2:43 PM on September 24, 2013 [16 favorites]


you'll get a whiff of what it's like to be a woman on the "make me a sandwich" internet

do you think it's possible to put eels boild in broo in a sandwich or would the bread get too soggy?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:44 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


These make me giddy! It's like I didn't realize I was allowed to -laugh- about this shit that we swim in all the time.

Also, I had to look up MRA in the urban dictionary, and the definitions are pretty hilarious :)
posted by eggkeeper at 2:49 PM on September 24, 2013 [9 favorites]


Twinkle, twinkle, little star,
How I wonder what you are.
Up above the world so high,
Like a diamond in the sky.

This little star appeared the day,
When we sent the men away.
To the lunar colony,
Where they mine our helium-3.

I avert my little gaze,
And picture all the cosmic rays.
And asteroids and loss of air,
That make such pretty twinkles there.

Even shit can have its place,
Twinkling far away in space.
Shining brightly like a pearl,
How I'm glad to be a girl.
posted by emmtee at 2:52 PM on September 24, 2013 [32 favorites]


Pussycat, pussycat, where have you been?
I've been to London to see the queen.

Pussycat, pussycat, what did you there?
I plighted my troth to the triple feminine and VOWED YOUR DEATH BEFORE THE CRONES, MANLING.
posted by jquinby at 2:53 PM on September 24, 2013 [20 favorites]


Fine here is a ballard which is about an evil woman using her class-based power to lure a young man to his death.

A holiday, a holiday, and the first one of the year.
Lord Darnell's wife came into church, the gospel for to hear.
And when the meeting it was done, she cast her eyes about,
And there she saw little Matty Groves, walking in the crowd.
`come home with me, little Matty Groves, come home with me tonight.
Come home with me, little Matty Groves, and sleep with me till light.'
`oh, I can't come home, I won't come home and sleep with you tonight,
By the rings on your fingers I can tell you are Lord Darnell's wife.'
`what if I am Lord Darnell's wife? Lord Darnell's not at home.
For he is out in the far cornfields, bringing the yearlings home.'
And a servant who was standing by and hearing what was said,
He swore Lord Darnell he would know before the sun would set.
And in his hurry to carry the news, he bent his breast and ran,
And when he came to the broad mill stream, he took off his shoes and swam.
Little Matty Groves, he lay down and took a little sleep.
When he awoke, Lord Darnell he was standing at his feet.
Saying `how do you like my feather bed? and how do you like my sheets?
How do you like my lady who lies in your arms asleep? '
`oh, well I like your feather bed, and well I like your sheets.
But better I like your lady gay who lies in my arms asleep.'
`well, get up, get up,' Lord Darnell cried, `get up as quick as you can!
It'll never be said in fair england that I slew a naked man.'
`oh, I can't get up, I won't get up, I can't get up for my life.
For you have two long beaten swords and I not a pocket-knife.'
`well it's true I have two beaten swords, and they cost me deep in the purse.
But you will have the better of them and I will have the worse.'
`and you will strike the very first blow, and strike it like a man.
I will strike the very next blow, and I'll kill you if I can.'
So Matty struck the very first blow, and he hurt Lord Darnell sore.
Lord Darnell struck the very next blow, and Matty struck no more.
And then Lord Darnell he took his wife and he sat her on his knee,
Saying, `who do you like the best of us, Matty Groves or me? '
And then up spoke his own dear wife, never heard to speak so free.
`I'd rather a kiss from dead Matty's lips than you and your finery.'
Lord Darnell he jumped up and loudly he did bawl,
He struck his wife right through the heart and pinned her against the wall.
`A grave, a grave!' Lord Darnell cried, `to put these lovers in.
But bury my lady at the top for she was of noble kin.'

posted by winna at 2:56 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


isn't corb a male crow and corbie a female crow?*

As I was walking all alane,
I heard twa corbies makin' a mane.
The tane intae the tither did say, O,
"Whaur sall we gang and dine the day, O,
whaur sall we gang and dine the day?"

"It's in ahint you auld fail dyke,
I wot there lies a new slain knight,
an naebody kens that he lies there, O,
but his hawk and his hound and his lady fair, O,
but his hawk and his hound and his lady fair".

"His hound is to the haunting gane,
his hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame,
his lady's ta'en anither mate, O,
so we may mak our dinner swate".

"Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane,
and I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en,
As I was walking all alane,
I heard twa corbies makin' a mane.
The tane intae the tither did say, O,
"Whaur sall we gang and dine the day, O,
whaur sall we gang and dine the day?"

"It's in ahint you auld fail dyke,
I wot there lies a new slain knight,
an naebody kens that he lies there, O,
but his hawk and his hound and his lady fair, O,
but his hawk and his hound and his lady fair".

"His hound is to the haunting gane,
his hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame,
his lady's ta'en anither mate, O,
so we may mak our dinner swate".

"Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane,
and I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en,
with many a lock of his golden hair, O,
we'll theek oor nest when it grows bare".

There's mony a ane for him maks mane,
but nane sall ken whaur he is gane,
o'er his white banes when they are bare, O,
the wind sall blaw for evenmair, O,
the wind sall blaw for evenmair., O,
we'll theek oor nest when it grows bare".

There's mony a ane for him maks mane,
but nane sall ken whaur he is gane,
o'er his white banes when they are bare, O,
the wind sall blaw for evenmair, O,
the wind sall blaw for evenmair.

*no, but it sounds good, doesn't it?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:04 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


oh, damn it, the first source had a line missing and i just plain screwed up the editing fix

As I was walking all alane,
I heard twa corbies makin' a mane.
The tane intae the tither did say, O,
"Whaur sall we gang and dine the day, O,
whaur sall we gang and dine the day?"

"It's in ahint you auld fail dyke,
I wot there lies a new slain knight,
an naebody kens that he lies there, O,
but his hawk and his hound and his lady fair, O,
but his hawk and his hound and his lady fair".

"His hound is to the haunting gane,
his hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame,
his lady's ta'en anither mate, O,
so we may mak our dinner swate".

"Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane,
and I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en,
with many a lock of his golden hair, O,
we'll theek oor nest when it grows bare".

There's mony a ane for him maks mane,
but nane sall ken whaur he is gane,
o'er his white banes when they are bare, O,
the wind sall blaw for evenmair, O,
the wind sall blaw for evenmair., O,
posted by pyramid termite at 3:12 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


Young Lord: "Lavender's blue, dilly dilly, lavender's green
When I am king, dilly dilly, you shall be queen"

Princess: "Who told you that, dilly dilly, you'd sit on the throne?
You'd just be prince consort, dilly silly, while I rule alone."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:13 PM on September 24, 2013 [20 favorites]


well, i can't resist posting just one more old ballad

1 FAIR lady Isabel sits in her bower sewing,
Aye as the gowans grow gay
There she heard an elf-knight blawing his horn.
The first morning in May

2 'If I had yon horn that I hear blawing,
And you elf-knight to sleep in my bosom.'

3 This maiden had scarcely these words spoken,
Till in at her window the elf-knight has luppen.

4 'It's a very strange matter, fair maiden,' said he,
'I canna blaw my horn but ye call on me.

5 'But will ye go to yon greenwood side?
If ye canna gang, I will cause you to ride.'

6 He leapt on a horse, and she on another,
And they rode on to the greenwood together.

7 'Light down, light down, lady Isabel,' said he,
We are come to the place where ye are to die.

8 'Hae mercy, hae mercy, kind sir, on me,
Till ance my dear father and mother I see.'

9 'Seven king's-daughers here hae I slain,
And ye shall be the eight o them.'

10 'O sit down a while, lay your head on my knee,
That we may hae some rest before that I die.'

11 She stroakd him sae fast, the nearer he did creep,
Wi a sma charm she lulld him fast asleep.

12 Wi his ain sword-belt sae fast as she ban him,
Wi his ain dag-durk sae sair as she dang him.

13 'If seven king's-daughters here ye hae slain,
Lye ye here, a husband to them a'.'

and i'm sure you're all familiar with the ballad of frankie and johnny, right?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:23 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


punch up by joking about murdering a baby

yep, babies do get murdered, whoops, I guess this...

oh, you mean a parent murdering a male baby of theirs for being male.

... Nope, carry on...
posted by tigrrrlily at 3:43 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


Here's a hilarious one!

Peter, my neeper,
Had a wife,
And he couidna' keep her,
He pat her i' the wa',
And lat a' the mice eat her.

Oh no wait. That's the possible origin of the Peter Pumpkin Eater nursery rhyme, with all original misogyny firmly in place.
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:50 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


Mary, Mary, quite contrary
How does your garden grow?
None of your damn business, breeder!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:58 PM on September 24, 2013 [7 favorites]


I get the thing about "punching up, punching down", but here's the thing: when you make jokes about women killing (male) babies you are punching down - both against babies, and the very sad mothers who kill theirs.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:15 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


Bwithh: “what are examples of actual misogynist lullabies?”

The barb of the joke is not supposed to be some idea that all lullabies are misogynist. The barb of the joke is supposed to be that angry MRAs are often claiming that the pendulum has swung, that feminism has gone too far, and that the world hates and reviles men. The humorous juxtaposition is the introduction of the darkest MRA nightmares into everyday nursery rhymes, where they obviously don't belong.
posted by koeselitz at 11:05 AM on September 24 [32 favorites +] [!]



So did no one come up with any examples of actual misogynist lullabies, then? I never said "all lullabies" ; I was looking for a few examples. Or give me one. ( I saw the Jack and Jill mention earlier in the thread - I don't think it's misogynist ( e.g. Sources of authority, healing, judgement, punishment are all matriarchs in the verses posted. Jack is the passive victim. Jill at least has agency) ,and it's no lullaby).

The Toast piece is just lazy, really.
posted by Bwithh at 4:25 PM on September 24, 2013


(It's a long thread and I couldn't read it all - apologies if I missed something)
posted by Bwithh at 4:26 PM on September 24, 2013


So did no one come up with any examples of actual misogynist lullabies, then?

Here's an example of a nursery rhyme that comes to mind. Seems like a familiar theme, though I'd have to do some more cogitating to come up with other examples. It's not unfamiliar, though.

Ice cream, a penny a lump!
The more you eat, the more you jump.
Eeper, Weeper, Chimney sweeper,
Married a wife and could not keep her.
Married another, Did not love her,
Up the chimney he did shove her!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 4:31 PM on September 24, 2013 [2 favorites]


So did no one come up with any examples of actual misogynist lullabies, then?

Well, I just posted the Scottish version of Peter (pumpkin eater.)

Are you under the very mistaken impression that the point of the original piece is that lullabies are misogynist?

The point of the piece is not that lullabies are misogynist.
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:32 PM on September 24, 2013 [9 favorites]


The point of the Toast piece is also not to make fun of violence against men, if anyone is wondering.
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:33 PM on September 24, 2013 [14 favorites]


For anyone who finds this hilarious, I suspect that you will also find Kathy. Ack. hilarious.

(Greg Nog, your friend really needs to start this up again.)
posted by cairdeas at 4:46 PM on September 24, 2013


This is an honest question - why is this okay?

I'm sure this has been answered adequately already, but allow me to add my voice to the queue saying that this entire thing is a joke about the concept of "misandry" as a thing that exists systemically in our world, since it does not actually exist.

Yes, the rhymes focus on blatant violence and silencing (and I actually could see that being problematic for people with histories of traumatic violence or abuse), but those are not the actual punchline of the joke. They are used to graphically illustrate a concept ("misandry") that exists only in the fevered imaginations of misogynists who are out of touch with reality.

The real butt of the joke here is the concept - that is, systemic violence and oppression against men that substantially affects their place in the social hierarchy - itself, not individual acts of violence against men, which are actually terrible things.
posted by Ouisch at 5:47 PM on September 24, 2013 [6 favorites]


Random thoughts:

*The linked article had some funny ones, but truly the ones in the comments were much better.

*I'm seriously sad that people had to come into a thread where people were having a legitimate shared laugh over some pretty witty writing, and shit all over it with disingenuous claims of outrage. Ugh.

*I'll admit I haven't read every post in this thread, but what is the Golden Toad reference? i don't get it and I feel stupid and left out. Someone please explain.

*There are some very witty people on metafilter. I love that.

*And, final thought, this one is so fucking brilliant, it made me laugh out loud, and also copy & paste & email to several people. I love it.

The farmer in the dell
The farmer in the dell
Heigh-ho the derry-o
The farmer in the dell

The farmer takes a wife
Now that DOMA was ruled unconstitutional she can get healthcare through her wife's government job
What, you thought all farmers were men?
Heigh-ho the derry-o
Lesbian separatists forever
posted by MoxieProxy at 5:48 PM on September 24, 2013 [8 favorites]


what is the Golden Toad reference?

Greg just feels really strongly about toads' rights I think.
posted by elizardbits at 6:02 PM on September 24, 2013 [12 favorites]


Even though I consider myself an astute reader but it took me a while to identify some of the the metaphors, similes and analogies packed into those dense little poems. Once I did, I was glad I took the time to read a bit deeper.

Some of the ones I found interesting were:

And Jill danced on his grave.

It is clear to me that Jill did not literally dance on his grave, but instead joined a hate group to protest his funeral and voted against the candidate in favor of hate crime legislation.

Lay them straight:
Nine, ten,
Start over again, male.


I believe the phrase "lay them straight" is a reference to "straight an narrow" and the poem is a commentary on institutionalization and the war on drugs. Even though "male" tries to "lay them straight" he ends up back in prison along with a huge percentage of his peer group due to draconian drug laws.
posted by Ad hominem at 6:15 PM on September 24, 2013 [1 favorite]


I laughed so hard at these.

Then I saw the "What about teh menz?"

And I laughed even harder.
posted by klangklangston at 6:50 PM on September 24, 2013 [9 favorites]


Goosey, goosey, gander
Where have you wandered?
You know males are not allowed to roam about unescorted.
posted by Biblio at 7:26 PM on September 24, 2013 [18 favorites]


oh the fox went out one starry night
and he prayed to the moon to give him light
for he had many a mile to go that night
and he didn't want to be raped so he dressed very conservatively and walked quickly with eyes alert and head up and with his car keys clenched between his knuckles so that no one could say it was his fault if he did get raped
before he reached the town-o, town-o, town-o
posted by daisystomper at 7:52 PM on September 24, 2013 [19 favorites]


I am struck by the elegant simplicity of this one:

Star light, star bright,
The first star I see tonight;
I wish I may, I wish I might,
Drink from the tears of men tonight.


I think that will be my new good-luck mantra before I go out on the town from now on.
posted by WidgetAlley at 8:36 PM on September 24, 2013 [9 favorites]


It’s raining, it’s pouring;
The old man is snoring
Now is our chance.

Glorious.


Here's the funny thing: nursery rhymes are already terribly violent, and often more overtly than these. For instance, the next lines are often told as "He went to bed and bumped his head / and he didn't get up in the morning" (though Wikipedia currently claims he "wouldn't get up" instead of "couldn't", making it an issue of desire instead of ability). This has been interpreted a number of different ways (including death by sleep apnea), but if he couldn't get up, I interpreted it as he was in a coma or had some other head trauma.

Goosey, goosey, gander
Where have you wandered?
You know males are not allowed to roam about unescorted.


This is another one that is already pretty violent towards (non-prayer saying) men:

Goosey Goosey Gander, whither shall I wander?
Upstairs and downstairs and in my Lady's chamber.
There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers,
So I took him by his left leg and threw him down the stairs.

Cracked included this in their list "The disturbing origins to 5 common nursery rhymes":
Some Experts Say...

Back in 16th century Europe, most people were busy either fighting off plagues or killing off Catholics. Priests especially were in high demand as there was a reward for the Protestant who was able to find and execute one.

The method of execution was often tying him by the legs and throwing him down a flight of stairs (thus the last line in the rhyme). Unless he would begin to say his prayers in English rather than Latin, he would bounce down the steps faster than your childhood Slinky. If he did give in, he was spared by--oh wait, no. They threw him down the stairs regardless.

So that's all well and good, but what the hell does the phrase "Goosey Goosey Gander" have to do with anything?

Well, it's thought that "Goosey" is referencing an old slang term "goose" which was a nice but roundabout way of saying "voluptuous lady of the night" which in turn is a euphemism for "goddamn dirty hooker." In fact, the term "goose bumps" was originally slang for the red bumps caused by venereal diseases (Wikipedia).
And with that, I learned a number of odd facts.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:41 PM on September 24, 2013 [10 favorites]


dear metafilter feminists, I love you. hugs and kisses.
posted by nadawi at 9:32 PM on September 24, 2013 [3 favorites]


I am going through a bit of rough time right now, and I pulled my car into the driveway tonight and put my head on the steering wheel and cried for awhile before going into my house. I thought I'd check metafilter (well, I actually checked metatalk) to chill out a little and calm down before going inside.

This is the first time in a long time I have just SOBBED with laughter. Oh thank you so much.
posted by adiabat at 9:33 PM on September 24, 2013 [20 favorites]


Do you find "normal" nursery rhymes to be equally unpleasant?

I can honestly say I've never really cared for or about nursery rhymes. Do these rhymes have the same objective? Obviously not, because the intent of different nursery rhymes was different. Comparing the intent and effect of these to the originals is as unnecessary as comparing this to actual misogyny.

Multiply that times a hundred instances per day and maybe you'll get a whiff of what it's like to be a woman on the "make me a sandwich" internet.

You say this like it should be a revelation for me. Also, it's not exactly a justification, but I don't really think you need one. You are entitled to enjoy mean-spirited jokes. I only think it's fair to recognize them for what they are.

Like I said, I don't totally get the MRA stuff, and I'm not convinced this is firmly and purely aimed at that community. But I'm very open to being proven wrong about something I don't really know much about. I'm totally open to the possibility that I might just not be "getting" the joke.

As always, if you think a characterization of problematic behavior ("whites are racist", "men are rapists", "the 1% are scum", etc.) by people with less social capital or power than you--complaining about real problems in their lives--is personally aimed at you because you are a member of the criticized group (you're white, you're a man, you're rich, etc.):

Maybe pause to think about why you're so defensive?

Maybe I didn't read enough of them, but I saw literally zero "characterizations of problematic behaviors" in this post. Perhaps you are reacting to another comment in the thread, so apologies if I misunderstand you.

And you give really weird examples! The statements you're quoting are all sweeping generalizations that are pejorative. I mean, if I'm white and you are basically saying that "(all) whites are racist," shouldn't I be insulted unless I think (a) racism is pretty cool, or (b) you're beneath my concern? Wouldn't it be a little troublesome if that didn't bother me? I have a very hard time understanding how it should not be at least a little insulting to be described as a racist or a rapist when you aren't.

If you're going to say that I should be sophisticated enough to know that the speaker doesn't really mean ALL men or ALL whatever, I am going to have to disagree (heh). How do I know that the speaker is in fact that sophisticated? Or the audience? In fact, it's fair to expect that not everyone in a broad enough audience possesses enough nuance to grasp the unspoken distinctions (just ask Dave Chappelle).

Please note that I'm not even trying to equate, as some would call them, "punching up" with "punching down." I've probably already said too much, because it suggests that these rhymes bother me a lot more than they do. I will say that I don't think that this sort of thing is very constructive to positive gender relations, but then again, not everything needs to be.

I'm just trying to carve out a little space to have the right to not like these rhymes without being considered some kind of asshole misogynist. To be honest, I was more irked by your comment than the original post, because it baldly implies that a man who doesn't like these jokes is just that kind of guy.
posted by Edgewise at 12:52 AM on September 25, 2013 [3 favorites]


Nahum Tate: "So a joke about a woman raping a man...funny?? Punching up and all."

As a male survivor here, I think it's pretty crappy to trat something that really happened to me as something you can use as a "take that" against people venting about the patriarchy and MRA/misandry toxicity. Thanks.
posted by ShawnStruck at 2:22 AM on September 25, 2013 [13 favorites]


Mary had a little man
Whose worth as a human was low

And everywhere that Mary went
That man was sure to go

He followed her to school one day
which was against the rule

It made the children laugh and play
To see a man at school

Because men's brains clearly aren't capable of complex thought
And besides, education might make them uppity.
posted by coppermoss at 5:43 AM on September 25, 2013 [6 favorites]


One thing that struck me was how a number of the jokes could as easily have been written by men mocking women.

There was an old woman who lived in a shoe.
She had so many children, she didn’t know what to do;
She gave them some broth without any bread;
Then whipped them all soundly and put them to bed.
She was right to do it; nothing a woman does should be criticized.


Sounds like a bad Talk Radio joke to me.
posted by IndigoJones at 7:39 AM on September 25, 2013


One thing that struck me was how a number of the jokes could as easily have been written by men mocking women.

Right, that's because that's basically the whole joke here. These are "misandrist lullabies", the joke is that they're written by men who completely, fully believe that all feminists are misandrists, and that there is a real, genuine, systemic oppression of men as a result of feminism.

So, yes, bad talk radio joke. Spot on.
posted by palomar at 7:44 AM on September 25, 2013 [6 favorites]


Yet again, I am befuddled by subtlety.

Mind you, the volume of laughter on this thread for some pretty lame and obvious jokes....
posted by IndigoJones at 7:52 AM on September 25, 2013


Catharsis can be that way sometimes.
posted by palomar at 7:54 AM on September 25, 2013 [7 favorites]


I've taken issue with the fighty/overgeneralizing/misandrist comments that some feminists occasionally make. I don't identify with the MRA set, but also don't think that radicalization is an effective tactic for instilling social change.

That being said, I don't have a problem with these. The humor is way over the top, they're upending/subverting a number of very old tropes that need to die, and the whole thing is just very, very silly.

I don't usually agree with the "punching down is okay" stuff, but for some reason, I think it works pretty well here. I'm not sure that I find it to be a particularly effective bit of satire, except perhaps to point out that lots of old jokes/rhymes are crazy dated and misogynistic, and look patently ridiculous when turned on their head.

If we replaced "men" in these rhymes with "ALL HUMANS," and retitled the site "Cylon Lullabies," it'd be just as funny. The total eradication of the human race is a pretty scary thing to think about, but the idea is so implausible that the joke ends up being pretty funny. Heck, this was the entire point of Morbo's character on Futurama.

So, yeah. Threatening to kill men is generally not cool (and will likely prevent anybody from taking you seriously), but the humorous/implausible context seems to make this OK.
posted by schmod at 8:02 AM on September 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


Funny or no?
posted by rocket88 at 9:06 AM on September 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


Heck, this was the entire point of Morbo's character on Futurama.

Nonsense. The primary purpose of Morbo is to criticize misconceptions about wind power.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:21 AM on September 25, 2013 [10 favorites]


Little Miss Muffet
Sat on her tuffet
Eating her curds and whey
Along came a spider
Who sat down beside her
And yelled WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 9:24 AM on September 25, 2013 [15 favorites]


I do not like thee, Doctor Fell,
The reason why, I cannot tell.
But this I know, and know full well,
It probably has something to do with the way you dismiss my health concerns as being all in my head
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:39 PM on September 25, 2013 [20 favorites]


How many miles to Babylon?
It's three score miles and ten.
Can we get there by candlelight?
Yes, there and back again.
If your heels are nimble and light,
You may get there by candlelight.
But once you get there you will be sacrificed on the altar of our Godess because She has no use for men.
posted by NoraReed at 12:55 PM on September 25, 2013 [9 favorites]


Pat-a-cake, pat-a-cake, baker's man.
Bake me a cake as fast as you can;
Roll it, Pat it and mark it with B,
Put it in the oven for baby and me.

Then make me a sandwich.
posted by coppermoss at 1:00 PM on September 25, 2013 [4 favorites]


Check your outrage regarding the lyrics posted in the FPP and this thread vs. your silence regarding the current the Billboard Hot 100. Currently featuring songs like Red Nose with lyrics such as:

If she don't go crazy then she walkin' on the highway
And if she don't believe me tell that bitch just try me
Bet you she be shakin' from the club back to my place whoa


I seriously doubt we will be hearing any of these misandrist lullabies on the radio or out at a club. After this thread dies down we won't have a new batch showing up on iTunes every day. If you are a man who went through some terrible experience where a woman abused you, try find some empathy for the millions of women who've suffered the same fate and get none of the benefits you receive for your gender.
posted by humanfont at 1:42 PM on September 25, 2013 [11 favorites]


Empathy is a good thing, for sure. The best way to demonstrate that is not telling people who are upset about these that they shouldn't be.

Because they're funny, and essentially inoffensive, but so was The Sixth Slave. Eschewing the weapons grade cognitive dissonance you need to not recognise that helps keep the focus on genuine bullshit like the song you quoted.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:51 PM on September 25, 2013 [2 favorites]


u know theres a metatalk right
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 3:00 PM on September 25, 2013


Wow what ugly stuff.
posted by SLC Mom at 3:51 PM on September 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


Twinkle twinkle little star,
Why's that man driving a car?
Get back inside the compound.
Merkel merkel.
posted by amorphatist at 4:35 PM on September 25, 2013 [1 favorite]


Twinkle twinkle little star
Guy shouts sick things from in a car
I am only 12 years old
He goes right to prison.

Mary had a little lamb
Her boobs are always where her boss's eyes go.
And even though she works for his family business
She is able to make a successful claim against him for sexual harassment.

It's raining, it's pouring
A guy tried to force me into his car to go whoring
Then instead of raping and murdering me
He realized what he was doing in horror and apologized, and left me alone.

Miss Mary Mac, Mac, Mac
A guy aggressively "corrected" me that you can't have rabies if you are a bat, bat, bat.
When I proved they could, could, could,
He then argued they don't act like "that", that, that.
And then he realized I knew what he was talking about and he didn't, and stopped arguing with me.
posted by cairdeas at 4:53 PM on September 25, 2013 [10 favorites]


Mary had a little lamb, little lamb, little lamb
Mary had a little lamb
Rape culture is a toxic intrusion of the patriarchy into our everyday lives
posted by Sebmojo at 7:10 PM on September 25, 2013 [15 favorites]


It doesn't matter what class of humans anyone chooses to direct violence-based humor at, it's degrading and inhumane. That it might 'feel good' is much more a commentary on the bitterness and hopelessness of the authors of these violent fantasies than it is on the objects of their vengeful humor. If faced with the choice of depicting the genocide of half of humanity for a laugh, or crying, it is immeasurably more honorable to weep. That such graphically violent jest finds so many enthusiastic advocates among a population celebrated for its civility is sobering.
posted by perhapsolutely at 8:43 PM on September 25, 2013 [3 favorites]


If laughing at a nursery rhyme themed inversion of the violence that my gender suffers in an attempt to make fun of a hate group masquerading as a civil rights movement makes me a bitter and hopeless, than feel free to think of me as such. I've suffered from depression and flashbacks to a sexually coercive relationship; I get hollered and leered at from cars with the implicit threat that implies whenever I leave my house. And honestly, compared to a lot of women on here, I've had it pretty easy. The violence against women-- always flavored with a different kind of contempt than that against men-- in video games, an art form near and dear to my heart, has made me unable to stomach swaths of games I'd otherwise gain pleasure and amusement from. MRAs-- the people these poems are actually making fun of-- have so infected the mainstream branches of many of my hobby communities that it is no longer worth it for me to visit them.

People are constantly judging me for every gender-coded thing I do, so if you want to be added to that list, I'll do so. But if laughing in the face of MRAs and of patriarchy makes me dishonorable, you can keep your fucking honor, because I need every laugh I can get.
posted by NoraReed at 2:11 AM on September 26, 2013 [32 favorites]


What's degrading and inhumane is reading these lullabies as calling for the "genocide of half of humanity." The pretense that you are sitting at your computer "honorably" "weeping" because you find this comment thread "sobering" is such an insult to everyone's intelligence that I'd say it ranks up there with slavery as an atrocity against humanity.
posted by leopard at 6:30 AM on September 26, 2013 [8 favorites]


Yes, a single comment about nursery rhymes on a blog is the exact same thing as slavery. That is in no way the most unbearably stupid thing that anyone has heard today.
posted by elizardbits at 6:36 AM on September 26, 2013 [8 favorites]


THIS IS LIKE THAT TIME THE CRO-MAGNONS DROVE THE NEANDERTHALS TO EXTINCTION!! I WEEP WHEN I CONTEMPLATE THEIR FATE!!
posted by octobersurprise at 6:45 AM on September 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


[Note: there is an open, active MetaTalk thread and it's probably a decent idea to take discussions that are not somehow about the topic of THIS thread over there. ]
posted by jessamyn at 7:03 AM on September 26, 2013


NoraReed-

That was very well put.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:04 AM on September 26, 2013


Agreed. My intelligence is insulted, nay injured(!), at the pretense of you, all of you, "sitting" at your computers. You call this evolution!? I call it death.
posted by 0 at 7:31 AM on September 26, 2013


It seems to me that every thread we have where rape jokes come up, some number of people come in to say that no, you can't tell other people what is or isn't funny, and/or that rape jokes are a way to challenge the audience to think about a horrible thing via humor.
posted by rtha at 9:43 AM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


rtha - i agree that happens, but i'm confused how it pertains here - who was making rape jokes?
posted by nadawi at 9:59 AM on September 26, 2013


You don't get it rtha. That only works when the jokes refer to violence against women, and the person making the joke has an HBO special.
posted by cairdeas at 10:02 AM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


[Seriously folks, consider strongly what sort of conversation you want to be having here and who you'd like to be having it with.]
posted by jessamyn at 10:11 AM on September 26, 2013


Oh, nobody, nadawi - apologies for the confusion. I was speaking more to how we seem to deal with topics around offensive humor in general.
posted by rtha at 11:16 AM on September 26, 2013


The ones that obediently comply with the rhyme-scheme are the best ones.
posted by Renoroc at 5:31 PM on September 26, 2013


rtha, aha! we're in complete agreement.
posted by nadawi at 6:09 PM on September 26, 2013


My bonnie lies over the ocean
My bonnie lies over the sea
My bonnie lies over the ocean
Heterosexuals have been banished to Antarctica
posted by en forme de poire at 10:47 PM on September 26, 2013 [14 favorites]


Mares eat oats and does eat oats
And little lambs eat ivy
A kid'll eat ivy too
Everyone is vegan under the Matriarchy, except for the ritual consumption of male flesh
posted by en forme de poire at 10:54 PM on September 26, 2013 [9 favorites]


Pat-a-cake, pat-a-cake,
Baker's man!
Then report to the hive
For your mandatory estrogen treatment.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:06 PM on September 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


A tutor who tutored the flute
Tried to tutor two tutors to toot.
Said the two to the tutor:
"Is it harder to toot
Or to maintain your job blowing on phallic instruments to play music composed by dead men in this oppressive matriarchy?"
posted by NoraReed at 5:31 AM on September 27, 2013 [6 favorites]


Hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle,
The cow jumped over the moon.
The little dog laughed, to see such sport.
Laughter is strictly forbidden in the Matriarchy.
posted by cairdeas at 6:58 AM on September 27, 2013 [5 favorites]


oh i thought of one finally!

rub a dub dub
three men in a tub
in pieces.
posted by titus n. owl at 8:37 AM on September 27, 2013 [12 favorites]


The dish ran away with another dish. Fuck your hegemonic heterotablewearism.
posted by NoraReed at 8:42 AM on September 27, 2013 [14 favorites]


I would like the audiobook to be narrated by GLaDOS.
posted by mimi at 8:58 AM on September 27, 2013 [7 favorites]


So sometimes I get pretty bored at work and I read metafilter, and sometimes while I’m reading mefi, I keep my hands busy by doing things like sculpting left-over mini babybel wax. A few days ago I idly made a standing rough human figure, generically a man (as it lacks any feminine markers (breasts, narrowed waist, skirt) for no other reason than that it’s easier), and then a rather domestic-looking rampant cat (more proportioned like a kitten, really, though sized rather larger in comparison to the man), and then later another generic man lying on his back in a sort of playful pose in front of the cat. Another blob of wax was just sitting in a ball, waiting for me to eat another two babybels before I could do anything much with it. A couple of days ago, I came to work to find, like one of the three bears, that someone had been screwing around with my stuff-- my chair had been adjusted, there were dust marks on my sweater as if it’d been on the floor-- and most tellingly, my figures were moved. The standing man was now on his back, and the lying man was sitting on the excess ball, and the formerly-rampant cat was now on all fours. This sort of irked me but gave me a reason to reconfigure what had been a joyous, playful little vignette, which I had quite liked and so was planning to leave more-or-less as it was, as it reminded me of playing with my own cats at home. So I put lying man back on the ground, but this time with his arms shielding his face, and put the cat over him in a leaping attack pose. I positioned standing man behind lying man, with his arms and one leg up, in a falling-backward stance, as if he had alse been caught off-guard by the attack kitten. And then I took the unformed blob of not-enough-wax-to-do-much-with, and on the spur of the moment fashioned it into a bear trap, which I placed immediately behind falling man’s grounded foot. I did this purely because it amused me, and having a little scene of two people facing imminent death or mutilation rendered in cheese wax on my desk brought a smile to my face the same way two people playing with a cat had previously done so. And so my purpose in sharing this is to address or illustrate some of the points which I know have already been brought up above in this thread.

Sure, people get mauled by rabid kittens and people fall into bear traps, but in the grand scheme of things, these happen less frequently than a lot of other injuries (and no, I’m not going to look up or cite statistics, because that’s sort of missing the point (or perhaps making it?) that not everything needs to be read so literally, all the time. Like, there is room in the world for figurative expressions of humor in art and literature and poetry, and moreover, we as human beings have the cognitive capacity to recognize and appreciate these things as art and not literal descriptions or depictions of reality, and not every single interaction we make with the world is or needs to be in the form of a peer-reviewed journal article or impassive news reportage).

And context does make a difference. My desk, and the little drama (or rather slapstick comedy) that’s playing out on it, is located in Afghanistan. If instead of a man falling backward into a bear trap (which I assume is a low-risk kind of accident out here), I had made a man getting his leg blown off walking on a land mine, that would be less funny to most people, as it cuts rather more closely to the bone (no pun intended) and has a higher likelihood of potentially being triggering-- although there are still plenty of people with black, morbid senses of humor who would find that funny (whether because laughter helps them overcome a stressful situation or previous trauma, or because they were raised on a steady diet of cartoon violence and are inured to it, or were just born barbarians and no one ever civilized them, who can say). But I haven’t created a photo-realistic depiction of people being killed in exacting and disturbing detail as some kind of object lesson in man’s inhumanity toward man or the futility of his struggle with nature or in an insensitive attempt to invalidate the feelings of others and ham-fistedly assert my dominance in the workplace. I’ve embedded two crude but recognizable, and overall somewhat ridiculous, miniature death scenes among the banality of paperclips and yellow stickies and writing instruments, because that incongruity is mildly amusing and entertains me (and most likely (though of course not necessarily 100%) others who come by my desk as well).

There was a thread not that long ago about a (fake) youtube video of a girl twerking and falling over onto a glass table and catching fire, which The Internet had apparently found hilarious. I didn’t find that hilarious at all, and while many people focused on the catching fire aspect, what really got me was the falling onto a glass table, which seemed to me would cause way more pain and (possibly permanent) damage, between lacerations and possibly broken bones, and back injury (especially having suffered from back problems myself). I cringed when I saw that video. But I cringed because that video looked real. It looked like a girl really had possibly seriously injured herself, and so to me that wasn’t funny but I was apparently in the minority among the millions of people who had sent that video viral. And while I equally don’t find the Three Stooges or Mr. Bean to be funny, I also recognize that as a culture we have a long history of slapstick comedy which is predicated on ridiculous depictions of violence. And while we might like to sneer and cluck at such low-brow humor, and argue that it should fall into obsolescence as we mature as a society, it continues to be popular for various reasons.

So should all the men (who far outstrip the number of women) with whom I work feel threatened and paranoid that I’m going to wage some campaign of violence against them? That I’m about to snap and go on a rampage, which threat I have telegraphed in the wax depiction of a man being attacked by a kitten and a man falling into a bear trap? Well, I give them the benefit of the doubt, as I walk by the magazine cut-out of a bikini-clad babe posted on the wall, that they are not looking at me like a cartoon wolf slavering over a chicken and are telegraphing their intent to rape me.* This comes part and parcel with understanding other people and our overall culture enough to divorce imagination and fancy from reality and generally get along in life.

And so to the misandrist nursery rhymes, which are ridiculous expressions of violence against men. They’re funny (as many others above have stated much more succinctly) because of the social context (lack of ingrained, normalized systemic violence by women against men); the rhetorical context (arguments about the existence of roving, man-killing hordes of straw feminists); and the literary context (a few lines of a familiar, innocent children’s rhyme with a totally-incongruous, murderous non sequitur appended to the end for shock value). They are rough sketches presenting the delicious flavor of violent revenge against the patriarchy for humorous effect; and not clinical, “American Psycho”-esque accounts of horrifying and grotesque acts presented as some kind of handbook (and to be fair, I found parts of that novel, read decades ago, quite humorous as well, though I recall it being shockingly controversial at the time and not without reason). They are not to everyone’s liking, just as cartoon violence, surrealism, subtle wordplay, or any other expression of art or humor will never be to everyone’s liking, but again as has been already mentioned, they are a product for and of their target audience. And perhaps I’m some dangerous, damaged person, since I have been described as having a dark sense of humor since I was a child, but I’m more inclined to think (well of course I would be) that people really ought to have the capacity to appreciate a work of art, poetry, humor, what-have-you, in context and as more than just the stark, literal reading of its constituent parts.

*While it can be argued that maybe neither the magazine cutouts nor the babybel sculptures are appropriate in the workplace, on the other hand we turn to the individual workplace culture and the context of working in the relatively high-stress environment of a warzone, separated from family and creature comforts, and so look to those things that will amuse us or bring us pleasure; and equally I recognize that years ago I chose to work in a high-male-density environment, and have actually experienced vanishingly-few instances of bald sexism, so I don’t really begrudge them their rather mild eye candy. And I know that some proportion of people who’ve made it this far in my rambling will still be horrified that either the magazine cutouts or the violent babybels are present in the workplace, but that is a discussion for another time and not anything I’m going to go into any more depth about.
posted by Hal Mumkin at 11:18 PM on September 27, 2013 [13 favorites]


Misandrist comics
posted by Lemurrhea at 2:43 PM on September 28, 2013


i don't think this is funny.
posted by cupcake1337 at 5:03 PM on September 29, 2013


I'm sorry, but under the Matriarchy all men are required to laugh at these poems. Your complaint has been logged, filed, and uploaded to the Mother Ship. A drone made of feathers will be along shortly to tickle you.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:49 AM on September 30, 2013 [9 favorites]


Tickle drones are just one of the many drone services provided by the matriarchy: chocolate delivery drones, massage drones, castration drones and Emily Dickenson poem recital drones are also available. Please contact your local FemStation for more information.
posted by NoraReed at 6:47 AM on September 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


I forgot to add this last week, but I find it funny - I'm not a misandrist but...
posted by Ouisch at 3:43 PM on October 6, 2013 [2 favorites]


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