The Privilege to Play
September 26, 2013 9:41 AM   Subscribe

 
I approve. The two biggest lessons any human being can learn are a) you're not alone in this universe, and you should act like it; and b) your actions (and inaction) have consequences. And — ideally — organized sports is a way to impart these lessons.
posted by grubi at 9:44 AM on September 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


It's always nice when an emphasis on character actually means that rather than an assertion that being on the team means you have it.
posted by jaduncan at 9:45 AM on September 26, 2013 [32 favorites]


Good.

Though if he were in Texas, he'd be lynched.
posted by kafziel at 9:45 AM on September 26, 2013 [9 favorites]


Whoa, supported by both the administration AND (thus far) all the parents? How does such a magical utopia even exist in the US?
posted by elizardbits at 9:46 AM on September 26, 2013 [22 favorites]


Splendid. But it's a shame that this is enough of an exception to the norm to warrant notice. The coddling and fetishism of sports programs in American public schools (and colleges, for that matter) is sad and needs to stop.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:48 AM on September 26, 2013 [7 favorites]


> The coddling and fetishism of sports programs in American public schools (and colleges, for that matter) is sad and needs to stop.

$578,000 buys a lot of leeway.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:53 AM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


So pleased that the parents, instead of freaking out and threatening lawsuits, backed up the coach's decision.
posted by OolooKitty at 9:53 AM on September 26, 2013 [9 favorites]


Instead of practicing during the days leading up to a homecoming game against Emery High this Friday, they were told to perform community service, and attend study hall and a class on character development. They were also required to perform service for their own families and write a report about their actions.

The players were told they also need to show up on time and attend all of their classes. And those with bad grades were told they must show improvement if they wanted to play.


It's good and all, but they're going to play football this Friday. How much of a punishment is that, really?
posted by The Michael The at 9:54 AM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


I applaud Coach Labrum for taking a principled stand and using this as an opportunity to teach the players something about consequences and accountability, but I also can't help but wonder: If the football program is about building character, about "helping parents raise their sons" and "being a good influence", why were there such rampant problems in the first place?
posted by xedrik at 9:55 AM on September 26, 2013 [6 favorites]


The Michael The: "Instead of practicing during the days leading up to a homecoming game against Emery High this Friday, they were told to perform community service, and attend study hall and a class on character development. They were also required to perform service for their own families and write a report about their actions.

The players were told they also need to show up on time and attend all of their classes. And those with bad grades were told they must show improvement if they wanted to play.


It's good and all, but they're going to play football this Friday. How much of a punishment is that, really?
"

I am pretty sure that punishment is not the goal, building character and doing what is right is.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:00 AM on September 26, 2013 [11 favorites]


No parent complained about the decision to the administration. Most expressed support and gratitude.

This...Surprises the hell out of me. If this happened even in my little backhole of Indiana, there would be a parent-run lynch mob at the administration's front door.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:02 AM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


I am pretty sure that punishment is not the goal, building character and doing what is right is.

Yeah, agreed, but it still seems like barely a slap on the wrist. Maybe he was worried about losing the team (mentally, emotionally, parents' support) if he took a forfeit.
posted by The Michael The at 10:06 AM on September 26, 2013


No parent complained about the decision to the administration. Most expressed support and gratitude.

This...Surprises the hell out of me. If this happened even in my little backhole of Indiana, there would be a parent-run lynch mob at the administration's front door.


They were 3-2 and haven't actually missed a game because of this overnight suspension. Every parent knows that their kid isn't going to miss out on that Stanford scholarship because of this.
posted by Etrigan at 10:07 AM on September 26, 2013


I don't understand why the regaining of privileges wasn't dependent on stopping the cyberbullying.
posted by charlie don't surf at 10:07 AM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


“I think football molds character,” Labrum said.
That's interesting; his actions are as if he believes the opposite.
posted by Flunkie at 10:10 AM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


The coddling and fetishism of sports programs in American public schools (and colleges, for that matter) is sad and needs to stop.

Agree completely. You wouldn't believe what the guys on the wrestling team and the girls who swim the backstroke get away with. This is happening everywhere. Kindergarten through elder care. Not to paint with too large of a brush.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 10:10 AM on September 26, 2013


> If the football program is about building character, about "helping parents raise their sons" and "being a good influence", why were there such rampant problems in the first place?

I played organized hockey for almost 15 years, and while I loved it most of the time, really the main lesson I learned was; "Don't Be An Asshole Like Most Of Your Teammates."
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:10 AM on September 26, 2013 [5 favorites]


If the football program is about building character, about "helping parents raise their sons" and "being a good influence", why were there such rampant problems in the first place?

Most people are assholes. Most people like sports. I'm not even going to tell you to do the math.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:11 AM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


You know, when they were babies in their cribs, their fathers looked down upon them and had one wish: "Someday my son will grow up to be a man." Well, look at them now. They just got their asses whipped by a bunch of goddamn coaches! COACHES!

Well, if I were them I would do something about it. I would get up and redeem myself in the eyes of my father, my Maker, and the nerd I bullied!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 10:11 AM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


I am pretty sure that punishment is not the goal, building character and doing what is right is.

Yeah, agreed, but it still seems like barely a slap on the wrist. Maybe he was worried about losing the team (mentally, emotionally, parents' support) if he took a forfeit.


You know what, screw that. If building character and doing what is right were the goals, then teaching kids that sometimes there are real consequences for their actions, and that sometimes they can't just get out of something by memorizing a quote and visiting some old folks would be a great idea. Character is how you move past those consequences, not how you wriggle out of them after being a dick in the first place.
posted by The Michael The at 10:14 AM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Good thing no one is giving coach Labrum any lip over this.
posted by etherist at 10:14 AM on September 26, 2013 [12 favorites]


"So the coach and his staff gathered the team together after Friday night's loss to Judge Memorial Catholic High School and told them he was concerned about some of the players' actions and behavior off the field. He then instructed them all to turn in their jerseys and their equipment. There would be no football until they earned the privilege to play."

I really hope they sent in a guy from Mitch and Murray to deliver this news.
posted by BurntHombre at 10:15 AM on September 26, 2013 [12 favorites]


It's good and all, but they're going to play football this Friday. How much of a punishment is that, really?

It's not about punishment, which is an amazing thing in and of itself. It's about setting down ethical obligations, and helping the students meet them with a wide array of teaching techniques, not just the crack of the whip. I am shocked and amazed and pleased that everyone involved is doing this the right freakin' way.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:16 AM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


This is a fantastic solution. A quick splash of cold water, surprising enough to (hopefully) get kids to not be jerks, and short enough to not have ill effects on players for whom football is a source of stability and a reason to go to school.

A+, coach! Fingers crossed that other coaches see similar opportunities to address problematic aspects of footbal culture.
posted by nicodine at 10:16 AM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Excellent! It shows that it doesn't take much, just one man, to reach numbers of other people.

Also, this is Utah, so...I think you have a sympathetic demographic there.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:17 AM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


So, all 80 players were cyberbullying, disrespecting, class-cutting underachievers?
That's hard to believe.

Maybe it was a few of the most visible players in the first string, which of course you would not want to suspend for lack of character just before Homecoming. If you can't play with your first string, it's better not to play at all, right?

They might not be teaching the lesson that they think they're teaching.
posted by the Real Dan at 10:19 AM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


xedrik: " If the football program is about building character, about "helping parents raise their sons" and "being a good influence", why were there such rampant problems in the first place?"

I can say with vast confidence, having been on a bullying taskforce for the past year, teenagers gonna teenage.

ANY grouping -- teams, clubs, classes, cliques -- can become a mob that encourages bullying or a healthy social outlet that discourages it, and there's no firm rule as to why some groups become bullying groups and others don't. Last year we had repeated bullying issues with groups that formed their mob-identity through churches. Our football teams are known as pretty upstanding kids who know they have to stay on the straight and narrow or they don't play because the coaches are super-serious about grades and about keeping out of trouble off the field; at one high school, socially, football is this welcoming, low-key environment where everyone is accepted and there's a lot of emphasis on grades ... they've organized themselves an hour-long study hall between school and practice every afternoon and the smarter kids help them kids who are struggling, to help keep them eligible. (They went to the state tournament last year.) But we had to suspend the entire girl's basketball team more than once because of drinking, hazing/bullying, and petty vandalism.

Some of it is the particular group of kids, some of it is the adults, some of it is the traditions of the organization, but any social grouping of teenagers can become this amazing force for good, or a terrible seething hive of scum and villany.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:20 AM on September 26, 2013 [41 favorites]


Maybe it was a few of the most visible players in the first string, which of course you would not want to suspend for lack of character just before Homecoming. If you can't play with your first string, it's better not to play at all, right?

According to the Wikipedia link, the town of Deseret has a population of 353, so it's possible the entire team is the first string.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:22 AM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Matt Labrum believes football helps create great men.

Hey, good on this crazy, crazy man for doing a good thing here. Even a broken clock, and suchlike.
posted by gurple at 10:22 AM on September 26, 2013


Apart from the fact that a high school shouldn't have sports teams in the first place, this is a fairly fascistoid sort of collective punishment. Oh, it's too difficult to find and blame the real assholes, let's punish the whole team and disguise it as a character lesson.
posted by MartinWisse at 10:22 AM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


So, all 80 players were cyberbullying, disrespecting, class-cutting underachievers?
That's hard to believe.


It's a team. As one of the kids noted, he had not done his job of holding his fellow teammates accountable for off-the-field bad behavior. If, as many coaches like to point out, "there is no 'I' in 'team'", then it doesn't seem weird to hold the entire team accountable for the actions of some. Peer pressure isn't a force only for evil.
posted by rtha at 10:22 AM on September 26, 2013 [16 favorites]


kafziel: "Good. Though if he were in Texas, he'd be lynched."

Maybe, but maybe not:

Last year in Texas, whose small towns are the spiritual home of high-school football and the inspiration for Friday Night Lights, the superintendent brought in to rescue one tiny rural school district did something insanely rational. In the spring of 2012, after the state threatened to shut down Premont Independent School District for financial mismanagement and academic failure, Ernest Singleton suspended all sports—including football.

To cut costs, the district had already laid off eight employees and closed the middle-school campus, moving its classes to the high-school building; the elementary school hadn’t employed an art or a music teacher in years; and the high school had sealed off the science labs, which were infested with mold. Yet the high school still turned out football, basketball, volleyball, track, tennis, cheerleading, and baseball teams each year.

posted by jquinby at 10:22 AM on September 26, 2013


The purpose of a football team isn't to have football games. It's to have leverage over those among the boys who would otherwise be the most difficult to keep in line. And there's no point spending the time and effort to have this lever if you aren't willing to use it.
posted by ocschwar at 10:24 AM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


… If there is not unity with me and the coach, then I become part of the problem

This is an example of good parenting. Rather than threatening the school because their special child would never do anything as bad as bullying, they took a sensible approach.
posted by arcticseal at 10:30 AM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]



Apart from the fact that a high school shouldn't have sports teams in the first place, this is a fairly fascistoid sort of collective punishment. Oh, it's too difficult to find and blame the real assholes, let's punish the whole team and disguise it as a character lesson.


Martin, how much do you know about American football? Watch a few plays some time. Notice the two lines charging at each other? It only takes one lineman failing to pull his weight for an opposite lineman to burst through and cost the whole team the game. Everyone pays the price for one player's misstep. Why should it be different off the field?
posted by ocschwar at 10:33 AM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


Most people are assholes. Most people like sports. I'm not even going to tell you to do the math.

I consider myself pretty good at math, but you're going to have to help me out on this one. What are you saying here?
posted by rocket88 at 10:34 AM on September 26, 2013


I'm pretty sure I played that school in basketball when I was in high school and on the basketball team. And on that basketball team, I ran plenty of laps due to the failures of others, and likewise they ran plenty of laps when i screwed up. You win together, you lose together.
posted by COD at 10:39 AM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


Character is how you move past those consequences, not how you wriggle out of them after being a dick in the first place.

I may be naive, but I like to think that people, especially young ones, deserve a second chance and can learn from their mistakes. Sure, they could learn the lesson of how to avoid missing football games, but I would much rather they learn the lesson of what is the appropriate way to be part of a community.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:39 AM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


there's no firm rule as to why some groups become bullying groups and others don't.

I would say there is, to some degree. The success of implementation of the those rules is the variable that causes the appearance of "no firm rule"

Looking at football in particular which is, for the most part, a warrior culture practicing ritualized combat, one can clearly see the rules and values that differentiate the ones that are more successful in being a benefit to those outside of that culture. Valuing a code of behavior as much as succeeding on the field is vital for high school sports to be a benefit to the students now and in the future. The games themselves end when they graduate, but what they can learn there can last the rest of their life.

*emphasis placed in lieu of long, rambling paragraph
posted by chambers at 10:42 AM on September 26, 2013


According to the Wikipedia link, the town of Deseret has a population of 353, so it's possible the entire team is the first string.
The school is not in Deseret. It is in Roosevelt, which has a population of 6,100, and which is almost four hours away from Deseret.

I assume that the mistaken "in Deseret" part of this post was based on the fact that the newspaper with the article is called "Deseret News". Note that "Deseret" is a common name in Mormon society, being a word that Joseph Smith claimed meant 'honeybee' in the language of people that he claimed... existed.
posted by Flunkie at 10:42 AM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


What are you saying here?

That you shouldn't be surprised to find assholes on your sports teams, regardless of the supposed "character-building" aspects of them.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:46 AM on September 26, 2013


I really hope they sent in a guy from Mitch and Murray to deliver this news.

Fuck Mitch & Murray!
posted by grubi at 11:00 AM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


So, all 80 players were cyberbullying, disrespecting, class-cutting underachievers?
That's hard to believe.


Part of developing character is recognizing that we have collective responsibility for our peers and we have collectively failed when they fail.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:08 AM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


The school is not in Deseret. It is in Roosevelt...

That does it! All Mefites' posting privileges are hereby suspended until we all learn how to properly fact-check our FPPs.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:08 AM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


Thanks, Flunkie. My bad.
posted by whimsicalnymph at 11:11 AM on September 26, 2013


I couldn't help thinking while reading this that this is such a mormon story. I don't mean that in a disparaging way -- I mean it like that old joke about Canadians apologizing over everything. Small-town mormons can say that football exists to build character and mean it. Small-town baptists (like the ones who coached my high school's football team) say it because it's the thing that you're supposed to say to build the fiction (and it is a fiction) of 'winning isn't everything.'
posted by mudpuppie at 11:36 AM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


Mod note: Fixed the location in the post, carry on
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:41 AM on September 26, 2013


why were there such rampant problems in the first place?

I think a large part of this, that isn't mentioned as explicitly, is the coaches themselves realizing that what they thought would happen automatically wasn't happening the way they thought it would. I would give anyone kudos for grasping that, no matter how late, and making a change in their approach to the problem.
posted by smidgen at 11:41 AM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Fuck high school sports in general. However, collective punishment is neither novel nor particularly clever.
posted by sourcequench at 11:43 AM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


I couldn't help thinking while reading this that this is such a mormon story. I don't mean that in a disparaging way -- I mean it like that old joke about Canadians apologizing over everything. Small-town mormons can say that football exists to build character and mean it. Small-town baptists (like the ones who coached my high school's football team) say it because it's the thing that you're supposed to say to build the fiction (and it is a fiction) of 'winning isn't everything.'

I was wondering about that aspect of what happened, but I don't know enough about Utah (I've only visited twice) or the LDS church (I'm just another ignorant guy on the internet) to say anything intelligent. Is there something about the local culture or religion that makes communal punishment more acceptable to parents there?
posted by Area Man at 11:44 AM on September 26, 2013


Of the seven team captains elected at the beginning of the season, only two were re-elected after Saturday’s team meeting. Gurr was one of them. He said he is a naturally quiet person, but now understands the need to speak up when he sees questionable behavior.

“I’m a pretty silent person, so I didn’t really say much,” he said, acknowledging that it's difficult to confront your friends when they're out of line.


Lets think about this, perhaps this kid was one of these proverbial "good" kids. Perhaps he was doing everything right. Before this, he still had blinders on to what his teammates were doing. He was unlikely concerned with their grades, and he was unlikely concerned with his community. Even good kids have an opportunity to learn a lesson when they share in a punishment of a few bad seeds.

Do the bad seeds learn? Maybe. But, more importantly, you've now mobilized the rest of the team to at least keep the bad seeds in line - if not convert them to good. With luck, this is the sort of team involvement that prevents the team from making the news a la Stubenville, Ohio.

So yeah, the headline could also read "Coach Does Right Thing to Protect Career Longevity", but highlighting the positive message is probably a lot better than highlighting foresight.
posted by Nanukthedog at 11:44 AM on September 26, 2013


Utah. Reminds me of the BYU basketball player who got kicked off the team for having a sexual relationship.
posted by surplus at 11:45 AM on September 26, 2013


You may be surprised how strong and strange the collective spirit is in these teams. My first 3 years in HS, I joined the football team despite being kind of a loner and known to "associate" with "stoners" - just so that I wouldn't have to spend weekends home alone. Even though my teammates didn't really approve of or like me, every Friday and Saturday night, one of them would call me with a weak invitation to join the gang in doing whatever it was we were going to do. The other misfits on the team were given similar consideration. Even then, I had difficulty reconciling all that booyah team spirit bullshit with the somewhat true loyality that was demonstrated when I got those phone calls.

So treat them as a group. On some level, they know they are one.
posted by klarck at 11:55 AM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


As one of the kids noted, he had not done his job of holding his fellow teammates accountable for off-the-field bad behavior

Ah yes collective punishment as the method to encourage internal policing among the powerless.

Police yourself kids! Administer justice to bullies online and off!

What could go wrong? And if it does it isn't the fault of the people in charge!
posted by srboisvert at 11:57 AM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]


Collective punishment is stupid. Kick off the offenders and play with less players.
posted by joseppi7 at 12:07 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Even good kids have an opportunity to learn a lesson when they share in a punishment of a few bad seeds.

They have an opportunity to learn many things from collective punishment sans investigation, few of them are good things.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:08 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


And if you can't determine who the exact offenders are, then...just carry on as usual, I guess! That's the way the world works, after all, and there's no use teaching kids anything else.
posted by rtha at 12:22 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


And if you can't determine who the exact offenders are, then...just carry on as usual, I guess!
That's not the only other option, of course. And even if it were the only other option, it would be a better option than punishing people who did nothing wrong.
posted by Flunkie at 12:24 PM on September 26, 2013


And if you can't determine who the exact offenders are, then...just carry on as usual, I guess! That's the way the world works, after all, and there's no use teaching kids anything else.

Ignoring the kids, it would be great if in response to an episode of bullying no one has the expertise to investigate properly the adults involved with this kept mum about it and were especially observant for bullying behavior in the future so as to avoid collective punishment.

Or just especially vigilant for bullying behavior at all times.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:28 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


it would be a better option than punishing people who did nothing wrong.

In the specific context of team sports, that's not how it works. If two people screw up, everyone runs suicides. If three people mess up, everyone does extra drills. If a few people are dogging it on the field, everyone is going to get lectured and yelled at about giving 110%.
posted by rtha at 12:32 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


So, all 80 players were cyberbullying, disrespecting, class-cutting underachievers?
That's hard to believe.


Of the seven team captains elected at the beginning of the season, only two were re-elected after Saturday’s team meeting. Gurr was one of them. He said he is a naturally quiet person, but now understands the need to speak up when he sees questionable behavior.

“I’m a pretty silent person, so I didn’t really say much,” he said, acknowledging that it's difficult to confront your friends when they're out of line.


The worst incident of bullying that happened to me, the one that led me to actively considering killing myself, was precipitated by my attempt to defend a kid who was being bullied. The thing I have had the most difficultly getting past was that none of the witnesses on the bus, including my twin brother, attempted to defend me.

The standard you walk by is the standard you accept. If the non-troublemakers on the team remained silent witnesses, then they deserve the collective punishment as much as the true offenders.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 12:35 PM on September 26, 2013 [10 favorites]


In the specific context of team sports, that's not how it works. If two people screw up, everyone runs suicides. If three people mess up, everyone does extra drills. If a few people are dogging it on the field, everyone is going to get lectured and yelled at about giving 110%.

And this is not a good thing. In fact is an attempt by the coach to recruit the rest of team to bully the players he thinks are a problem. That is the explicit goal of all collective punishment. As a society we have attempted to move away from this to try and be a society with a legal system because of the problems inherent on collective punishment and social mobbing.

It's bad even when it is for good reasons.
posted by srboisvert at 12:56 PM on September 26, 2013


> If the non-troublemakers on the team remained silent witnesses, then they deserve the collective punishment as much as the true offenders.

That's a big "if".

If there's evidence that every non-troublemaker witnessed wrongdoing AND that they had the opportunity to intervene or report AND that they failed to do so, then I agree that everyone on the team deserves sanction.

However, that's not "collective punishment", that's just punishment.

Otherwise, it's just hurting the innocent to get at the guilty. Not doing that is about the closest thing to a moral absolute that there is, apart from maybe "don't torture people".
posted by sourcequench at 12:58 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


I'm terrible at links, but this article supports how bystander intervention programs work, such as Green Dot. If everyone upholds the value of "no bullying", cyber bullying is unattractive. Fun/entertainment is explored/found elsewhere.
posted by childofTethys at 1:08 PM on September 26, 2013


Flunkie: "
“I think football molds character,” Labrum said.
That's interesting; his actions are as if he believes the opposite.
"

You seem to think that the sentence implies that playing football automatically guarantees good character. "Molds" simply implies it has a highly noticeable effect.

It's almost as if he believed other things molded character, too.
posted by IAmBroom at 1:10 PM on September 26, 2013


While it's obviously true that "molds character" could be used in the general sense you're suggesting, I think it's pretty clear he meant it in a specifically positive sense. “I think football molds character,” Labrum said. “We want to help our parents raise their sons. We want to be a positive influence. We want to be an asset.”
posted by Flunkie at 1:30 PM on September 26, 2013


Collective punishment/reward on a group where individuals have no agency in determining their group - BAD

But if you look at every single elite collective, regardless of what it is, the collective is put before the individual, meaning that collective punishment/reward is the norm. And the worst punishment for individuals of these elite groups? Being kicked out of the group.

So yeah, collective punishment/rewards is not only reasonable but desirable and needed for building a coherent team.

Stating again for emphasis: As long as the individual has agency in self-selecting to that group.
posted by forforf at 1:54 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]


clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.
posted by gerstle at 2:22 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Collective punishment is also a way to help douchenozzles figure out that they're douchenozzles and step up to accept responsibility so the innocent are no longer under sanction. That shit played out all the time in the barracks.
posted by Fezboy! at 2:24 PM on September 26, 2013


They have an opportunity to learn many things from collective punishment sans investigation, few of them are good things.

They were policing themselves beforehand. One of the team captains admits to looking the other way when he saw stuff. The senior running back knew kids were doing poorly in school and was uninvolved, not holding people accountable on and off the field. The third kid interviewed, the honors student, thought that the coaches doubling down on community service and studying was a good message. Self-policing was failing these kids. That's what was going on beforehand.

What was going on afterward was what is done at most colleges. The athletes study together, are expected to perform some level of community service together as a team. They increased the touch points adults have with kids, told them that bullying was not acceptable, put them in training classes to avoid future bullying and otherwise invested more time, money, and scrutiny on a football team before things got worse than they were.

Are some good kids going to get nothing out of this experience? Are they being unfairly punished? No. Community service from strictly a civics perspective is how you build community and identity. If someone was a good kid that didn't deserve the team building experience of being held accountable, they had the option of walking away from the uniform - though arguably the good kid that chose to do that... well... I'd acknowledge he had principles as overall Ayn Randian they were.
posted by Nanukthedog at 2:30 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]


It's not mentioned in the article, but these kids and this coach are almost certainly Mormon. As messed up as I find Mormonism, I'll be damned if every Mormon I've ever met isn't the nicest, friendliest person I've ever met. I know it's anecdotal and confirmation bias and religion can't mold your personality...but it's true. Something about that magic underwear. Of course, it doesn't take into account the horrible stance the Mormon church has on gays and blacks, but I thought I'd just throw that out there.
posted by zardoz at 2:37 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]


Was it really all 80 who were engaged in these acts? Does it make sense to punish a group of 80 people for the actions of a few, as if they were expected to police each other?
posted by JHarris at 3:48 PM on September 26, 2013


So, all 80 players were cyberbullying, disrespecting, class-cutting underachievers?
That's hard to believe.


Have you ever MET a football team? Biggest gang of entitled asshole fucks as I've ever met. I don't do reunions but I do keep track, most of them are now NYPD. So, entitled and douchey all the way down.
posted by nevercalm at 5:47 PM on September 26, 2013


Was it really all 80 who were engaged in these acts?

No, the article clearly states otherwise. It also explains their rationale.
Like Rook, Jeremy Libberton was initially concerned when his son Jaden, a junior, told him what happened.

“I thought, ‘Why is this a team-type issue when there should be individuals that should be held accountable?” Libberton said. “But then I talked to several other parents, and there is really not a way to track this to specific people. I wish we could in this case.”
posted by Dark Messiah at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2013


Have you ever MET a football team? Biggest gang of entitled asshole fucks as I've ever met. I don't do reunions but I do keep track, most of them are now NYPD. So, entitled and douchey all the way down.


See, that's precisely the issue. In my high school, the football team was nothing like that. In previous years before I was there, the school had responded to player misbehavior by forfeiting games. The memory of that made for a very different attitude ob part of the players.
posted by ocschwar at 6:23 PM on September 26, 2013


srboisvert: "And this is not a good thing. In fact is an attempt by the coach to recruit the rest of team to bully the players he thinks are a problem. That is the explicit goal of all collective punishment. As a society we have attempted to move away from this to try and be a society with a legal system because of the problems inherent on collective punishment and social mobbing.

In my experience, this is not true. The point of team accountability is to create a feeling of camaraderie amongst the players. This leads to people trying to do the right thing by their teammates. All the best teams I've been on have had a code that we all followed, out of loyalty to each other. For example, in college, we had a rule that you couldn't have anything alcoholic to drink for 48 hours before a game. Our coaches had no way of knowing if we had anything to drink, but still, it was a very rare occasion when someone broke the rule. We were accountable to each other. It's not fun to feel like you've pissed off 20 people/friends that you have to see every day. It's basically positive peer pressure, but doesn't (generally) approach bullying level.
posted by coupdefoudre at 7:13 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]




Was it really all 80 who were engaged in these acts? Does it make sense to punish a group of 80 people for the actions of a few, as if they were expected to police each other?

Everyone gets credit for the win, everyone takes blame for the loss. The essence of team sports.
posted by Etrigan at 7:13 AM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]


I have to agree. In real life, it's rarely the guilty party alone that suffers the consequences. Collective punishment is something to be very careful with, for sure. But in this case it seems like a very appropriate way (and not too harsh) to teach these individuals that being part of a voluntary association can entail responsibilities beyond the end of their nose.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:13 AM on September 29, 2013


Or, it could be seen as a kind of profiling. Some team members are acting badly, in a visible manner, so some people decide that they all must be. And the result is that everyone on the team loses one-fourth of their school foolball game opportunities for their entire life. Some of them may view that as a harsh punishment indeed for something they didn't do.
posted by JHarris at 12:46 PM on September 29, 2013


My experience with group punishment/reward dynamics is not that "if some were behaving badly, then *all* must be." It's "some were behaving badly and the whole group has been tarnished by that behavior, therefore the whole group must bear some consequences." When this occurs in groups where some (or much) degree of self-policing is already expected and established - which is most, in my experience - then yes, that's how it goes, because members of the group who have not gone and done bad thing but have looked the other way when bad things were being done by co-workers/teammates, they also deserve to bear consequences.

everyone on the team loses one-fourth of their school foolball game opportunities for their entire life

Did I miss something, or misunderstand something? Because I thought none of the kids on the team in this article missed even one game, since the suspension was lifted before the next week's game.
posted by rtha at 1:18 PM on September 29, 2013


Wait, what? (goes back, rereads)

The article says only two of the seven captains were reelected. What does that mean? If no one ended up missing a game then what's the point of this thread?

The article says they were given an opportunity to "re-earn" a spot on the team. Okay, not everyone, but does that not mean that probably a substantial number of kids didn't make it?
posted by JHarris at 7:09 PM on September 29, 2013


JHarris, I read the stuff about the captains as meaning that the kids who were captains before were back on the team, but not re-elected as captains. I also took it as a sign that the team realized that the leadership provided by the old captains led to poor outcomes, and that this awareness led to the team's decision to choose new leaders.
posted by NortonDC at 9:32 PM on October 1, 2013


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