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"This is no very striking resemblance of your own character, I am sure."
July 1, 2014 10:23 AM   Subscribe

Manfeels Park
Manfeels Park is an exercise in flogging a pun for all it’s worth. The male dialogue in this webcomic is all taken word for word or adapted only slightly from web commentary by hurt and confused men with Very Important Things To Explain, usually to women. Artistic license is exercised in editing commentary for brevity, spelling and grammar, but the spirit of the original comment is always faithfully observed. Witty rejoinders are also ‘found dialogue’ where possible.

With art "hand-traced on photoshop from regency period drama screencaps, just like the Old Masters used to do it."

Scroll down to the comments for a preview of next week on Manfeels Park… or read it on their Tumblr for additional snarky hashtag commentary.
posted by Lexica (126 comments total) 94 users marked this as a favorite

 
Heh, I like this. I was expecting it to wear thin quickly, but the execution is done pretty well (Lizzie Bennet's "really?" face is a perfect choice.)

don't read the comments
posted by kagredon at 10:30 AM on July 1 [5 favorites]


I found this recently and added it to my tumblr feeds. I laugh every time.
posted by immlass at 10:32 AM on July 1


Poor Jane. First the damn zombie book, now this.
posted by Diablevert at 10:33 AM on July 1 [1 favorite]


(it also kind of reminds me of Women Listening To Men In Western Art History, which someone linked on Metatalk)
posted by kagredon at 10:34 AM on July 1 [16 favorites]


This is awesome. "Lake Scene" was just perfect.
posted by OmieWise at 10:38 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]


This exists at the intersection of Yes and HELL YES.
posted by emjaybee at 10:41 AM on July 1 [7 favorites]


The comments are pretty tedious.
posted by OmieWise at 10:44 AM on July 1


This is perfect.

(And just what I needed too, as I despair about Giant Bomb's latest developments. *sigh*)
posted by kmz at 10:45 AM on July 1


The comments are pretty tedious.

Those aren't comments, that's "Next week on Man-Feels Park..."
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:49 AM on July 1 [45 favorites]


These are great.
posted by Catblack at 10:49 AM on July 1


I recognize that I speak from a place of privilege as a cisgender male, and I acknowledge that my opinion holds no more weight than that of any other...

...but she really should disable the comments.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:50 AM on July 1 [3 favorites]


I was just getting into the archive when all you people made it stop responding. I hope you're satisfied.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:53 AM on July 1


Pearl harbour has been attacked by women and feminists over the last fifty years and the sleeping giant of the men's movement has been awoken.

The amount of social ineptitude and sheer ignorance that went into crafting this comment was brought to you by I don't even know what
posted by saucy_knave at 10:55 AM on July 1 [12 favorites]


The comments are pretty tedious.

You ain't kidding.
posted by brundlefly at 10:56 AM on July 1


The next time a dude gets all huffy, like, "but how ELSE am I supposed to hit on all the random women I want to hook up with while they're just hanging around waiting to take the bus to work or whatever it is they do when they're not dispensing sex tokens?!"

All you have to say is ...
posted by divined by radio at 10:57 AM on July 1 [3 favorites]


Oh, god, "Carry on avoiding women" made me make a sound that startled the cat.
posted by Etrigan at 10:58 AM on July 1 [23 favorites]


That is F-ing brilliant, from the name all the way to the execution. And I'm looking forward to mansplaining why to the first poor unfortunate who wanders my way.
posted by mondo dentro at 11:10 AM on July 1


Gretchen Mr. Darcy, stop trying to make Fetch Misandry happen. It's not going to happen.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:12 AM on July 1 [1 favorite]


kagredon: "(it also kind of reminds me of Women Listening To Men In Western Art History, which someone linked on Metatalk)"

christ is he still behind us

i don’t know

keep skating


Acceptable.
posted by boo_radley at 11:14 AM on July 1 [4 favorites]


I'm trying to get through and process the mansplains but, as my friend would say, my brain is The Little Engine That Just Could Not Even.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:15 AM on July 1 [8 favorites]


Ooooh I love this so much!!!! Thanks for sharing!
posted by xarnop at 11:18 AM on July 1


My dolphin vegan soul likes this.
posted by jaguar at 11:26 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]


I promise that this was lifted entirely from a MetaTalk comment. Indeed, "Carry on avoiding women."
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:27 AM on July 1 [9 favorites]


I was all ready to roll my eyes at this but the "Handmaiden of the Patriarchy" strip was the first one I saw and it's absolutely killer.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:27 AM on July 1


I came very very close to spitting tea all over my keyboard when I read Handmaiden of the Patriarchy. This is fantastic - thank you!
posted by rtha at 11:30 AM on July 1 [1 favorite]


It is so interesting to watch as one part of me snorts with laughter at each of these comics, while simultaneously another part of me begins crafting the 'not all men' speech.

I know that second part of me will never go away, but I'm learning to keep it on the shortest possible tether.
posted by Mooski at 11:48 AM on July 1 [4 favorites]


"Handmaidens of the Patriarchy" would be an awesome girl-band name.
posted by tippiedog at 11:53 AM on July 1 [4 favorites]


Not all men.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:54 AM on July 1 [5 favorites]


I promise that this was lifted entirely from a MetaTalk comment. Indeed, "Carry on avoiding women."
posted by Ruthless Bunny


Well, I don't claim to know absolutely what MetaTalk you're referring to here, but damned right it was, and if it is the one I'm thinking of, I told him to 'carry on avoiding women' -- and my comment got deleted!
posted by jamjam at 11:58 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]


#notalldarcys
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:16 PM on July 1


If there were awards for people who take a good idea and execute it even better that expected, I would like to nominate this site for as many as possible.

"Lake Scene" was, as was earlier noted, perfect.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:17 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]


With art "hand-traced on photoshop from regency period drama screencaps, just like the Old Masters used to do it."

I don't know why but this art style (which I do not know that I've ever seen before) is absolutely perfect for this. Much better than screencaps by themselves somehow.

Someone smarter than me explain it to me.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:21 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]


(I mean, it might be hard to do, since I'm a dude and therefore understand everything already)
posted by shakespeherian at 12:22 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]


I was just going to ask if you wanted it mansplained instead.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:23 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


This is wonderful. Thank you.
posted by gauche at 12:25 PM on July 1


We laugh at your inappropriate and risible feelings. We mock them, ha ha. Because we are right, and you are wrong.
posted by Decani at 12:27 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


This.

I snorted. Then LOLed.


Oh, god, "Carry on avoiding women" made me make a sound that startled the cat

And what sound was that, pray tell?
posted by BlueHorse at 12:30 PM on July 1


I want to jump in like the A-HA video. Freaking brilliant.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:35 PM on July 1 [7 favorites]


We laugh at your inappropriate and risible feelings. We mock them, ha ha. Because we are right, and you are wrong.

Mmm, this one has a definite Colonel Brandon as played by Alan Rickman feel to me.
posted by kagredon at 12:35 PM on July 1 [5 favorites]


Someone smarter than me explain it to me.

The Darcy drawings all look remarkably similar to Colin Firth, to my eyes.

I think she just rips frames from the TV dramas and traces them in Photoshop.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:38 PM on July 1


With art "hand-traced on photoshop from regency period drama screencaps,"

I think she just rips frames from the TV dramas and traces them in Photoshop.

Hmmmmmmmm
posted by shakespeherian at 12:39 PM on July 1 [9 favorites]


The best part of this is that the arguments aren't straw men. Too often when I see this stuff they parody the other viewpoint and totally misrepresent that viewpoint, so the satire falls flat. (Some of the political parody "news" sites do this.)

I'm a lot more sympathetic to an argument when I can actually see both sides. Sometimes it seems like they are oblivious to why someone objects to something though.

"Check your privilege" is often used to shut down conversation, and is often presumptuous, and I do generally hate it. Usually to me it's a signifier that the discussion is at an end and both sides wasted their time. This said, I understand why it's said, I just find it too often said by individuals who need to head their own advice. (There's also a presumption that the person being told to check is totally unaware and has never done so.)

I wish this comic linked to where the original was said so you could see what kind of community these comments were coming from (and read the comment in context). There's a difference between reddit and youtube and metafilter for example. There's also a difference between saying you don't like the term cis and insisting people not use it in a discussion about gender.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:41 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


I could have sworn I'd read that somewhere. I hadn't realized it was in your comment. I was too obsessed with figuring out whether Darcy was actually Colin Firth or not.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:44 PM on July 1


I wish this comic linked to where the original was said so you could see what kind of community these comments were coming from (and read the comment in context).

Am I the only person that seriously thinks they're from Metafilter?
posted by OmieWise at 12:47 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]


The one Ruthless Bunny mentioned HAS to be from Metafilter. I've read that exact comment word for word on this site. Either that or men are completely unoriginal about their precious manfeels, which is entirely possible.
posted by naju at 12:49 PM on July 1 [6 favorites]


(This is a fantastic FPP.)
posted by naju at 12:52 PM on July 1


From now on, when someone gets all 'splainy and notallmen, I'm going to suggest that they take a nice, quiet walk in Manfeels Park.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:57 PM on July 1 [5 favorites]


Yeah, if it's not from MetaFilter (and I can't seem to find it through searching for it), it means I've read it somewhere else, which means I've read that diatribe from someone in a community I don't give a damn about, which, to be honest, is not thrilling me at the moment in a "perhaps I should re-examine how manage my short time here in this world" way.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:59 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


We laugh at your inappropriate and risible feelings. We mock them, ha ha. Because we are right, and you are wrong.

You sound hurt and confused.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:01 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


I think she just rips frames from the TV dramas and traces them in Photoshop.

The ones I've looked at seem to be from the BBC miniseries of Pride & Prejudice - see Lady Catherine de Bourgh.
posted by rtha at 1:02 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]


Decani: "We laugh at your inappropriate and risible feelings. We mock them, ha ha. Because we are right, and you are wrong."

lord manfeels! we did not... were not aware... sir... that you had returned to the manor house
posted by boo_radley at 1:03 PM on July 1 [38 favorites]


I believe shakespeherian's question was why… this art style (which I do not know that I've ever seen before) is absolutely perfect for this. Much better than screencaps by themselves somehow, not "how were the images created?"

(Don't mind me 'splaining what you meant, shakes.)
posted by Lexica at 1:06 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


The ones I've looked at seem to be from the BBC miniseries of Pride & Prejudice - see Lady Catherine de Bourgh.

Yup
.
posted by pharm at 1:07 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]


The art for Tedium is really beautiful in its use of shading to depict space.
posted by winna at 1:10 PM on July 1


Either that or men are completely unoriginal about their precious manfeels, which is entirely possible.

It's like any non-marginalized)group that tries to pretend to be victimized. The arguments make their way around within the group and no one challenges them and they take hold in the marketplace of ideas. Then when one of these people speaks outside the group they find out others don't think the way they do. This is why a spate of bankers compared themselves to holocaust victims because people were being verbally critical of them. There are also people making legitimate and articulate arguments, and they influence someone not as clever and bright to speak up. Often this is the wrong spokesperson for the "cause." I use scare quotes because these individuals rarely actually speak for the group they believe they represent, but there you have it.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:23 PM on July 1


The comments are like Lewis's Law gained sentience and started writing for itself.
posted by KathrynT at 1:39 PM on July 1 [8 favorites]


I know Mo & Erin. Mo's response:

"I don't have a Metafilter account or I would comment and confirm that yes, I'm pretty fucking sure Monster came of a Metafilter thread, but I have no idea what one or I'd've linked to it."
posted by bwerdmuller at 1:51 PM on July 1 [25 favorites]


[Guys, please don't dig into old absent user history directly here.]
posted by cortex at 4:33 PM on July 1


This is amazing and fabulous.
posted by maxwelton at 4:46 PM on July 1


Wait, so they don't have cites for these?

Monster was just published a couple of weeks ago, but none of characteristic phrases in that strip seem to come up in a google domain search for metafilter that I've found. Perhaps a deleted comment?

The only in-the-wild antecedent I've found so far is Tedium from The Guardian a month ago.

I don't know, y'all, gathering a dozen internet comments and pasting them into a coloring book? That's supposed to make some point about "male dialogue"?
posted by 0 at 4:49 PM on July 1


Wow, yes, it's almost like an art project done based on a silly pun is not being undertaken like a work of serious journalism. What a good point you have made.

(The real beauty of this is that the next time I encounter mansplaining in the wild, I can just imagine it being said by a line-art regency fop. And giggle.

It really makes me want to shoop Mr Willoughby into a fedora, though.)
posted by kagredon at 4:58 PM on July 1 [7 favorites]


Surely if you emasculate loser dudes enough and emphasize that male displays of emotion are ridiculous and shameful, feminism will triumph over gender roles. Is that still even the nominal goal?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:59 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]


Willfully obtuse or really not able to distinguish between "displays of emotion" and the sort of behavior being mocked here? (I mean, your comment could appear in the next episode and it wouldn't seem out of place. Were you emoting just now?)
posted by nobody at 5:10 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]


0: "Wait, so they don't have cites for these? "

???? Who demands citations for comics?
posted by boo_radley at 5:15 PM on July 1 [11 favorites]


The comments are like Lewis's Law gained sentience and started writing for itself.

My reaction to the comments on Tedium are about 50% this and 50% laughing at the spluttering.

Generally my reaction to guys (or women, for that matter) not finding feminist humor funny is "oh hey, that's how I feel about most so-called humor out there". Also "who's the humorless ideologue now?"
posted by immlass at 5:17 PM on July 1 [5 favorites]


These are thoroughly enjoyable.

???? Who demands citations for comics?

I don't think it needs cites, but I think it would benefit from links to the the original inane comments. Because some people will claim that she's making it up otherwise.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:19 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]


Wait....the stuff the men are saying in these..these are things men have actually said? I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I want to make sure I'm understanding this.
posted by sio42 at 5:21 PM on July 1


Oh, look, the caricature of the emotionless, castrating misandrist coming out of nowhere. That didn't take long.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:21 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


Men have had every advantage of us in telling their own story.
posted by kagredon at 5:22 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]


It really makes me want to shoop Mr Willoughby into a fedora, though.

'shopping not required.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:23 PM on July 1


Wait....the stuff the men are saying in these..these are things men have actually said? I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I want to make sure I'm understanding this.

Yes. From the About page:
The male dialogue in this webcomic is all taken word for word or adapted only slightly from web commentary by hurt and confused men with Very Important Things To Explain, usually to women. Artistic license is exercised in editing commentary for brevity, spelling and grammar, but the spirit of the original comment is always faithfully observed. Witty rejoinders are also ‘found dialogue’ where possible.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:24 PM on July 1


???? Who demands citations for comics?

If you make it a point that you're doing a "word for word" satire, it doesn't seem outrageous to think that you'd have the source readily available.
posted by 0 at 5:31 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]


Oh, and FWIW "displays of emotion" like denouncing feminism as the Pearl Harbor of a war on masculinity should be considered ridiculous and shameful. But at the moment it's more "scary" and "dangerous."
posted by zombieflanders at 5:33 PM on July 1 [8 favorites]


So, the site premise is "Lol, check out this loser?"

Well, it's dressed up well, at least.
posted by underflow at 5:38 PM on July 1


So, the site premise is "Lol, check out this loser?"

Wouldn't the real "lol check out this loser" be if they had linked the original sources, which I'm sure would draw complaints that they were unfairly bringing negative attention to the original posters (as happens every time Nice Guys of OKC gets linked here)? There doesn't seem to be a winning scenario here. Per usual.
posted by kagredon at 5:40 PM on July 1 [12 favorites]


The heading for "comments" is now "Next week on Manfeels Park..." :3
posted by boo_radley at 5:43 PM on July 1 [30 favorites]


'shopping not required.

Damn it, that's Darcy. Sorry, sorry.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:46 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]


Well, yeah, kagredon, there probably isn't any winning way to frame a handful of internet as the mouth parts of a gender. Yeah, yeah, "not all men". I leave you to enjoy your comic.
posted by 0 at 5:46 PM on July 1


I think it was that at post time, boo_radley. It is a pretty elegant to the solution to the inevitability of the content of the comments, one I didn't catch the heft of at first glance.

Who demands citations for comics?

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a satirical comic in possession of a galling dialogue, must be in want of a cite.

Not that the problem of actively citing/outing rather than paraphrasing galling but in practice honestly pretty fucking unremarkably terrible comments is without its problems, as kagredon notes. "Cite" in this case would mean something resembling "name and shame", while the plausibility of these comments will be pretty much without question to anyone who has spent enough time on the internet listening to dudes talk.
posted by cortex at 5:47 PM on July 1 [11 favorites]


Well, yeah, kagredon, there probably isn't any winning way to frame a handful of internet as the mouth parts of a gender.

Just as well that nobody did that, then.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:47 PM on July 1 [7 favorites]


Well, yeah, kagredon, there probably isn't any winning way to frame a handful of internet as the mouth parts of a gender. Yeah, yeah, "not all men". I leave you to enjoy your comic.

I don't have a violin but I will get my soprano ukulele and play THE SADDEST SONG IN THE WORLD for your terrible oppressions.
posted by winna at 5:53 PM on July 1 [17 favorites]


>>Well, yeah, kagredon, there probably isn't any winning way to frame a handful of internet as the mouth parts of a gender. Yeah, yeah, "not all men". I leave you to enjoy your comic.
>>there probably isn't any winning way to frame a handful of internet as the mouth parts of a gender.
>>frame a handful of internet as the mouth parts of a gender.
>>mouth parts of a gender.


whut
posted by kagredon at 6:03 PM on July 1 [7 favorites]


Mouthparts of a gender!

Unless this is where the story The Whisperer in Darkness becomes horribly true and there are insectile beings from beyond the veil of reality we know coming to buzz and hop and usurp our world.
posted by winna at 6:06 PM on July 1 [5 favorites]


Metafilter: Mouthparts of a gender

Someone had to.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:19 PM on July 1


I checked my privilege.

It's fine, thank you.
posted by crazylegs at 6:30 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


My privilege fits into overhead storage.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:31 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


I usually just take an invisible backpack now that checking your privilege is $25/pop practically everywhere.
posted by kagredon at 6:32 PM on July 1 [7 favorites]


(Jinx, ChurchHatesTucker)
posted by kagredon at 6:32 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]


I find it fascinating that just a few days ago people were defending Monty Python's blackface stuff with 'no sacred cows' arguments and are now in this thread complaining that these comics are mean.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:33 PM on July 1 [13 favorites]


pasting them into a coloring book

I would totally, seriously, no shit buy these collected as an actual printed coloring book in a fucking heartbeat. They'd be fantastic Christmas presents for a couple of my women friends, who would laugh themselves blue.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:34 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]


I would totally, seriously, no shit buy these collected as an actual printed coloring book in a fucking heartbeat. They'd be fantastic Christmas presents for a couple of my women friends, who would laugh themselves blue.

That does seem like a pretty solid merchandising opportunity.

TO KICKSTARTER!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:37 PM on July 1 [8 favorites]


cortex: "I think it was that at post time, boo_radley. It is a pretty elegant to the solution to the inevitability of the content of the comments, one I didn't catch the heft of at first glance."

They changed it from "Comments" on June 26. (That's the only interaction I've had with them; hope it doesn't cause this to run afoul of the "no friend-linking" rule.)
posted by Lexica at 6:39 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]


emphasize that male displays of emotion are ridiculous and shameful

You didn't actually read any of the comics, did you? You're just assuming things based off the title.

Because I'm a dude, been one my whole life, and
"Feminism in the Anglosphere is a false grievance industry"

"Am I supposed to take into consideration a woman's dolphin vegan soul when wanting sex?"

"People commit violent acts against people on a regular basis. These attempts to make it gender specific are getting tedious. And predictable."
do not strike me as phrases that display emotion, regardless of who says them.

They're no KHAAAAAAAAN!!!, that's for sure.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:53 PM on July 1 [14 favorites]


i love this so much.
posted by nadawi at 9:03 PM on July 1


I find it fascinating that just a few days ago people were defending Monty Python's blackface stuff with 'no sacred cows' arguments and are now in this thread complaining that these comics are mean.

People are myriad. Now, you might have a point if it were the same person. Otherwise, a group callout is silly. Different people, different thread, different subject.

I'd also never defend blackface, but then I'm an American and it has worse cultural connotations here than it does in the UK or Australia (or so I am told).

Beyond that, these comics are mean. They are scathing to their targets. It's kind of the point.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:39 AM on July 2 [1 favorite]


LO! A VISION FROM THE PARALLEL UNIVERSE WHERE CITATIONS AND LINKS WERE PROVIDED

why are they naming and shaming these poor men? was that truly necessary to make the point??? o weep for adon
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:21 AM on July 2 [12 favorites]


LO! A VISION FROM THE PARALLEL UNIVERSE WHERE CITATIONS AND LINKS WERE PROVIDED

In so far as you are engaging my question regarding cites, there is a difference between linking to a publicly posted internet comment and the sort of invasion of privacy associated with posting somebody's picture and real name. But I'm not even necessarily asking for citations as in links. It surprised me that the authors themselves don't even know for sure, for instance, what internet domain Monster comes from. So I asked some questions. Are they really that fuzzy on where these "faithfully observed" snippets came from? Shouldn't the context of the quoted comments be somewhat easy to confirm via search? Is this collection really a fair representation of real hurt and confused men? I don't think these are particularly unfair or gendered questions. We appear to differ on that.
posted by 0 at 7:05 AM on July 2


To be fair though, looking back I may not have read "pretty fucking sure" literally enough and read "no idea" too literally in regards to whether Monster comes from inside this domain.
posted by 0 at 7:22 AM on July 2


In so far as you are engaging my question regarding cites, there is a difference between linking to a publicly posted internet comment and the sort of invasion of privacy associated with posting somebody's picture and real name.

I felt kind of uncomfortable about the people upthread trying to Find The Bad Metafilter Comment, and I have no problem with mean satire of terrible internet comments written by men. I'd imagine that someone who did have a problem with the mean satire would get wound up about having specific people called out, even if they remained pseudonymous.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:58 AM on July 2


Now, you might have a point if it were the same person.

I agree which is why I wrote what I did.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:02 AM on July 2 [1 favorite]


The author of the 'no sacred cows' comment in this thread has not commented here.
posted by 0 at 8:23 AM on July 2


The problem with lack of cites is that these become like those Facebook memes you see where some horrible story is told about a racist demanding a seat on the plane away from the black person, so the stewardess moves the black person to first class. Amazing! Outrage! And then you check snopes and it didn't happen. There's enough shitty things in the world that we don't need made up bigotry.

Do I believe men say this shit? Absolutely. Do I see a problem with a direct naming and shaming? Yes. (Mostly because of the backlash against the authors).

I wouldn't even need links back to the source material. Again, if they are culling these comments from /r/MensRights/ and YouTube comments that's way different (in my mind) than if you find the comment on a site like metafilter. Just attribute it: Commentator on Fark.

On the flip side, maybe that lessens the message. Still, when I hear someone called someone else a "poopypants" it matters if this was a Kindergarten child or a principal.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:30 AM on July 2 [1 favorite]


0 - but decani is in the python thread telling people they just don't understand the humor if they're offended by the black face stuff.
posted by nadawi at 8:34 AM on July 2


A woman's worst nightmare? That's pretty easy. Novelist Margaret Atwood writes that when she asked a male friend why men feel threatened by women, he answered, "They are afraid women will laugh at them." When she asked a group of women why they feel threatened by men, they said, "We're afraid of being killed."
Whining about misandry; don't be that guy.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:54 AM on July 2 [3 favorites]


but nadawi, if we don't strictly adhere to exactly what was said one hundred percent of the time, then we're probably just making stuff up, or, at best, imagining things
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:58 AM on July 2 [4 favorites]


It amazes me that even in the aftermath of the Isla Vista shootings and all the horrible things that got a high profile because of it (not just the shooter's manifesto, but the links to the MRA and PUA boards where shitty things were being happily typed for all to see if you knew where to look) there is somehow a need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the dialogue used in these comics is accurate or real or not a made-up strawman because gosh, men don't really say things like this, do they? Especially in the comments section of these comics!
posted by rtha at 9:34 AM on July 2 [17 favorites]


I have definitely read the originals of some of these comments, and I read MetaFilter and heavily moderated feminist sites. That's pretty much it. These are not comments from YouTube. (I mean, c'mon. The language used is that miffed-educated-man language. YouTube commenters are unlikely to be talking about the Anglosphere or getting into arguments about the word "cis.")
posted by jaguar at 11:58 AM on July 2 [4 favorites]


No one is saying these things aren't said. To me the context matters. There's not a lot to be done for the PUA and MRA folk. They say all kinds of stupid shit and expecting them to do otherwise is an exercise in futility. These same comments creep into the discourse of other sites (including here) as well. No one is arguing that people don't shit on the floor. We're saying, tell us where that turd came from.

I think the comics are way more powerful for the fact that they aren't using strawman arguments, but the fact that they are the genuine arguments. The issue I have is if you are going to present them as "This was actually said," it makes me ask, "Where?" I don't get why that's so off to be curious about.

Maybe these comments are too prevalent to need sourcing. I don't know.

Problem I have is I get the same feeling reading some of these that I do when I read the "Post Secret" stuff. Some just don't ring true. I'm overthinking a plate of beans, and it's like expecting accuracy from Law & Order when all they promised was the material was "ripped from the headlines."

For what it's worth I have the issue when I am reading political satire sites.
posted by cjorgensen at 12:14 PM on July 2


As others have pointed out, there's no winning this. If a specific comment somewhere is linked to, then the authors are naming and shaming and that's bad, or a whole thing about how that comment is an outlier, or how the commenter didn't really mean it like that or they're just a troll and to ignore them. If a more general reference is made (found on XYZ site) then that's not specific enough blahblahblah.

We had a post a while back about a college prof who got an student review that said it would be better if she taught naked. She brought it up in class and talked about how it was inappropriate. In the discussion here, people said it was an overreaction to discuss it; they said it was just trolling and she should've ignored it; they said that the anonymous student was being shamed; they said he was probably getting off on the attention.

In the Isla Vista thread people said exactly the opposite of you - that there should absolutely be outreach to the PUA/MRA crowd and they should not be written off.

There is literally no way to do this in a way that is correct according to everyone, so I vote the authors do it the way that pleases them (and as much of their audience as they like) the most.
posted by rtha at 12:35 PM on July 2 [19 favorites]


I hear shit like this all the time, in real life, probably because I am considered a dude right up until I laugh in those people's stupid faces, and then I'm whatever an MRA person considers a non-MRA person, maybe a gender traitor or whipped or something. I can't cite real life to you except to say "at the game one time" or "in a bar one time". But real idiots really say dumb shit like this, and worse than this, it's not just sourceable internet comments.

I mean, I know you already know that, and of course there's a time-honored skepticism about unsourced claims made on the internet, I get that. But, just as a data point, I would struggle to find one of these dumbfuck statements that I haven't actually heard some variation of in person (or, worse, thought myself in a less reconstructed and more adolescent state).
posted by Errant at 12:36 PM on July 2 [1 favorite]


The point of the comics is not to refute or open discussion or teach or reach out or raise awareness or point to specific instances. The point of the comics is to be funny.

Fortunately, they are.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:40 PM on July 2 [4 favorites]


These same comments creep into the discourse of other sites (including here) as well.

"Creep into"? Those comments are everywhere and abundant. Metafilter is exceptional among general-interest sites in having a low proportion of them, but that's because there's full moderation staff and a community with lower tolerance for that shit. And, like jaguar says, even sites like Metafilter and ones geared at feminists, which take measures to stop that kind of derailing still can't avoid it completely. Read a discussion that tangentially has to do with feminism, or dating, or a notable woman who has said or done something that isn't unremitting sunshine and rainbows, and you'll see it.

Dismissing it as just the MRAs/PUAs doing what they do and oh well I guess we can't do anything about it doesn't sit well with me, either. The comments on the website are not the kind of extreme precious-bodily-fluids stuff that you only find in the deepest recesses of Reddit. It's actually pretty garden-variety stuff. This discussion, about how the stereotype of the misogyny in video game culture being mainly "teenage boys being teenage boys", and how that takes responsibility off the many adult men who advance it in big and small ways, is relevant.
posted by kagredon at 12:43 PM on July 2 [6 favorites]


Maybe these comments are too prevalent to need sourcing. I don't know.

Some of us do know. They are entirely too prevalent to need sourcing.
posted by jaguar at 1:29 PM on July 2 [4 favorites]


As others have pointed out, there's no winning this.

Understood. I see the downside. I'm sure you can see why some wish there was some level of attribution. It doesn't matter though because there's not.

Dismissing it as just the MRAs/PUAs doing what they do and oh well I guess we can't do anything about it doesn't sit well with me, either.

I was thinking exactly the opposite. As pointed out above the terms being made fun of aren't going to be bandied about on YouTube. So point to the place it is occurring. Show it's not just the expected asshats saying it.

I've thought this through a bit though and I think people are correct. I wanted citations to see how much license was taken and what the original context was, but short of linking to the direct comment I don't see how this can be accomplished in a manner that would make people happy. I see the downside to doing a direct naming and shaming, so won't advocate that. Anything less is still going to have a contingent of doubters.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:34 PM on July 2


Oh, dear god, I literally just paid £3 to clear this up, so listen up!

CITATIONS

Quoting the 'About' page (since the launch - I didn't just add this text it's been there all along):

"The first few comics here don’t have links to their source articles as we didn’t think to note them down. Comments providing citations for these are welcome."

We collected a bunch of quotes en masse in a text file, and I didn't think as I was copying and pasting to copy source links along with comments. Comment threads are often not Google-able, so I didn't bother trying to backtrack. I have yet to run out of material from that first sweep. It really is that simple.

Three of the comics do have at least partial citations. 'Mea Culpa' has a citation for the comeback, which came from an unrelated Twitter thread. The citation for 'Tedium' was added after someone managed to source it on here. And 'Handmaiden of the patriarchy' comes from a friend's (locked) Facebook feed, but actually gives a shout-out to the 'good guys' in said FB discussion on first name terms in the post text.

Whatever the argument on both sides of the debate, I actually do intend to cite sources for material ongoing. This is less to either cite OR 'name and shame' (not that I care) and more because it gives me an excuse to link to feminist discussions that may be of interest to our readership. Honestly I think most readers will prefer to enjoy the quotes in a less tiresome context than their original comment thread but there you go.

You don't have to take my word for it on this, but I'll confirm again that every comment is, grammar aside, a word for word faithful recreation of commentary in very ordinary locations on the web. I have not trawled the filthy depths PUA fora and I don't intend to (the past day tracking a singularly unpleasant 4chan topic was quite bad enough). This is _normal, everyday_ commentary. If it wasn't, what would be the point?

This is not about vicious, unprovoked attacks from the predators and PUAs of the world. It's not about calling out the men who willingly acknowledge that they think women are evil, or sub-human, or objects. It's about the guys who see themselves as above all that, and need to look again.

Okay, that's quite enough explaining myself for one day. Man, I promised myself I wouldn't do this! But I just wanted to clear up the citation debate, hopefully once and for all. And if folk still choose to believe these comments were made up by me? Eh, I can live with that. If you doubt it, you're probably not my intended audience.

Lots of love (yeah, you guys still come off REALLY well opposite 4chan),

Mo
Manfeels Park
posted by marrog at 1:59 PM on July 2 [55 favorites]


Mo, thank you so much for jumping in and clarifying! While I'd like to see the citation fever die down, I hope you stick around.
posted by prewar lemonade at 2:24 PM on July 2 [5 favorites]


This is _normal, everyday_ commentary.

Yes, exactly!

Thanks, and welcome! And thank you so much for the comic - it is wonderful.
posted by rtha at 2:51 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]


Whatever the argument on both sides of the debate, I actually do intend to cite sources for material ongoing. This is less to either cite OR 'name and shame' (not that I care) and more because it gives me an excuse to link to feminist discussions that may be of interest to our readership.

I think this is great. It completely undercuts the yowls of 'but you're just making this shit up' from the MRA scumpits. As for the problems of 'naming and shaming', if MRAs don't want to be judged for their stupid opinions, they shouldn't publish them on the internet where anyone can see them.

Top work, and thanks for dropping by. Hope you stick around.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:14 PM on July 2


Metafilter: you guys still come off REALLY well opposite 4chan
posted by Phire at 8:31 PM on July 2 [5 favorites]


@His thoughts were red thoughts

Again, I don't wanna hammer a point home so hard I crack the plaster (woops, took that metaphor too far; have been doing a lot of DIY lately), but I feel like it's worth reiterating: we're not reeeeally talking about MRAs here. We're not talking about a tiny, hideous minority. In many cases these are widespread opinions expressed by a lot of guys who would hotly deny being "One of those scumbags." I mean, don't get me wrong, these are classic MRA arguments, but they didn't come from MRA websites. They're being expressed by 'ordinary' men on the Guardian comments section, y'know? Even if the speakers are self-confessed MRAs they're expressing widely-held and not particularly controversial beliefs.

It's interesting to note that as much as 'monster' is one of the most popular comics in the series, it's also the one that's drawn the most hurt and consternation - I was even emailed by a friend who was upset by it. It's a cruel comic; I totally accept that. But it's NOT just some MRA speaking there. It's a knee-jerk emotional reaction to women talking about concerns for their safety around strangers from _a lot of guys_. Decent guys (albeit having a bad moment). Guys who would NEVER associate themselves with the MR movement.

"Man, those crazy MRAs, huh?" seems to be turning into the new "#notallmen" at a heady pace as the 'good' guys learn that it's a great blanket term to use to exempt themselves from any responsibility for problematic behaviour. It's a good sign, I guess, that they have got as far as realising they NEED to distance themselves, but it's only useful insofar as they're still examining their own behaviour on top of that, in the same way that just because I recognise racism that doesn't mean I'm never guilty of it.

In short: careful now.
posted by marrog at 12:46 AM on July 3 [18 favorites]


(Additional: I'm not insinuating that every man who passes this behaviour off as 'MRAs be crazy' is widely guilty of the same behaviour (nor do I want to assume the commenter here even IS male, though it's implied). More observing that these quotes shouldn't be palmed off as the incoherent ramblings of a group we have widely deemed to be unworthy of notice or respect. That would be far, far too easy.)
posted by marrog at 1:24 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]


More observing that these quotes shouldn't be palmed off as the incoherent ramblings of a group we have widely deemed to be unworthy of notice or respect.

That is a really solid point. Thank you for that. My use of 'MRA' in my comment above was more by way of shorthand for the kind of people who would make those arguments. I concede that such use is, at best, imprecise and, at worst, incorrect.

My point stands. If people, male, female, MRA or otherwise, don't want to be judged on their opinions, then they shouldn't publish them to the public on the internet. In that respect, I don't think that citing the comments that inspire the comics is ethically problematic.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:54 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]


It's a cruel comic; I totally accept that.

As a guy, I think that's arguable.

It doesn't read as cruel to me because the opinion expressed is that of an immature git. I thought that way in my late teens. Then I grew up and got my shit together. And the title isn't Boy-Feels park.

The Universe doesn't owe anybody companionship or sex or conversation. And whining about how "society" has made one feel like a monster for simply being aware that women fear rape and assault...

To come up with "They think such horrible things about me BECAUSE I'M A MAN, BUT I"M NOT LIKE THAT" as an excuse to be socially crippled is for high school. Seriously. Deal with your shit like a grown up.

Go to a fucking dance studio and sign up for intro Salsa classes. Meet people and develop a new physical & social skill set, one you can take to basically any large city & put to use.

And you can still cross the street as a gesture of gentlemanliness, rather than of "SHE THINKS ME UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN!!!.

Because the Universe does not owe you anything. Not companionship, not sex, not happiness.

It's like Yoda said:
"Whining leads to wallowing in self-pity. Wallowing in self-pity leads to misogyny. Misogyny leads to becoming an MRA douchebag making the rest of us look bad."
I paraphrase.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:48 AM on July 3


@Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey

Feelings borne of immaturity, narcissism and frustrated entitlement are still real feelings. It's inappropriate to wade into a discussion of male violence against women and girls to co-opt the discussion to voice said feelings, and that's worthy of a good hard mocking, but that doesn't mean I have zero sympathy for the person who said that stuff. He really ISN'T being told how to properly communicate with women, and it ISN'T easy to just go out and find out for yourself, not with all the conflicting messages out there. Now, do I think the least he could fucking do is go and figure it out for himself rather than adopting a transparently irrational self-flagellating approach, wallowing in his teenage angst? Sure. And that's why I stand by Monster and its message. But I also acknowledge that our culture does not make it easy for men to behave like decent people all of the time, and as such I have compassion for his situation. Perhaps 'cruel' is too strong a term, but I certainly think it's callous to present the comic without explanation for the sake of humour. It just so happens that I'm okay with being callous on this occasion because honestly? Cry me a river. I cried a river over you.
posted by marrog at 11:08 AM on July 3 [11 favorites]


I regret that I have only one favorite to give for that last comment, marrog. (And one "fantastic comment" flag).
posted by sweetkid at 8:46 PM on July 7 [2 favorites]


In Defense Of Fanny Price
But to read Mansfield Park as a kind of Middlemarch is to miss the far more complicated story Austen has told. Fanny Price’s story is less about her individual virtue, or her richer relatives’ lack thereof, but about class, about privilege in its most insidious form—before the term ever cropped up in contemporary social justice discourse. Fanny isn’t moral or upright because she wants to be, but because the role—along with a whole host of so-called middle-class values—is forced upon her. For all we know, she may well wish to be as carefree, as filled with dynamic sprezzatura, as Woodhouse or Elizabeth Bennet, Austen’s more fortunate heroines, but the social dynamic, and the circumstances of her birth, deny her the security necessary for such frivolity. Fanny has too much at stake to be easygoing.

She is, after all, a poor relation, sent to live with her wealthier cousins at Mansfield Park by a kind of nominal charity. From the first, her rich aunt insists that she never forget her social inferiority to her cousins:
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:08 AM on July 11 [2 favorites]


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