I Am More Than OK With Not "Having It All"
September 23, 2014 6:59 PM Subscribe
Once I checked financial stability, a good partner, and sufficiently sown wild oats off the list of Reasons Why I Am Not Ready, I was left with my own brain, which rarely goes well for me. Kate Harding writes about her ambivalence about having children, and her ultimate decision.
I've never regretted not spawning.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:21 PM on September 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 7:21 PM on September 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
Ambivalence implies strong feelings in two directions. This piece reads more like a person who was 95% sure she wasn't going to have kids, then gave herself permission for the last 5% and felt better, which sounds pretty familiar as far as these stories go.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 7:22 PM on September 23, 2014 [20 favorites]
posted by StrikeTheViol at 7:22 PM on September 23, 2014 [20 favorites]
I read this immediately after Meghan Daum's somewhat thematically related piece in the New Yorker this week, Difference Maker:
The childless, the parentless, and the Central Sadness. (It's a heartbreaker, for real.)
Not having children is having moment right now, I think. Also, this from Jezebel: We Need to Talk About Women Who Regret Motherhood. Something in the air, you guys.
posted by purpleclover at 7:34 PM on September 23, 2014 [13 favorites]
The childless, the parentless, and the Central Sadness. (It's a heartbreaker, for real.)
Not having children is having moment right now, I think. Also, this from Jezebel: We Need to Talk About Women Who Regret Motherhood. Something in the air, you guys.
posted by purpleclover at 7:34 PM on September 23, 2014 [13 favorites]
Oh, boy. These days MeFi is a treasure trove of "should I be a parent or not?" or "I chose not to be a parent, here's why" posts these days.
posted by zardoz at 7:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 7:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [9 favorites]
Something in the air, you guys.
I think it might be a new found appreciation for birth control. Really. That whole Supreme Court case really helped drive home that basic family planning is something we should deeply treasure.
posted by fiercekitten at 7:52 PM on September 23, 2014 [33 favorites]
I think it might be a new found appreciation for birth control. Really. That whole Supreme Court case really helped drive home that basic family planning is something we should deeply treasure.
posted by fiercekitten at 7:52 PM on September 23, 2014 [33 favorites]
Want to know something weird? Check out the childfree tag, it's apparently something that is always a hot topic in September.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:08 PM on September 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:08 PM on September 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
It might just be the editorial pendulum swinging back from the "Can Women Have It All?" article boom.
posted by gingerest at 8:08 PM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 8:08 PM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
After reading that, I'm glad she isn't having children. Never had a connection to kids you have been around? OK. Enjoy your freedom too much? Cool. Have some bad genetics or had a crappy childhood? YOU KNOW WHAT KATE? WE ARE ALL IN THAT BOAT. The article has that twinge of the philosopher king paradox or the first 3 minutes of Idiocracy. Every decision about being a parent or not being a parent is fine, but you really sound like a dope if you try to rationalize why.
posted by machaus at 8:09 PM on September 23, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by machaus at 8:09 PM on September 23, 2014 [6 favorites]
Machaus, yes, absolutely, yet that doesn't stop people from asking "Why don't you want kids?" nor does it stop many of us women (which may include you, I have no way to know) from being forced by circumstance to think through our reasons. Given that it's still a big rebellion against gendered social roles to say I don't want to be a mother, I appreciate reading other women's reasoning, just to compare and contrast.
posted by gingerest at 8:15 PM on September 23, 2014 [65 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 8:15 PM on September 23, 2014 [65 favorites]
Want to know something weird? Check out the childfree tag, it's apparently something that is always a hot topic in September.
Annual reminder to double-check your birth control preferences, WINTER IS COMING.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:21 PM on September 23, 2014 [17 favorites]
Annual reminder to double-check your birth control preferences, WINTER IS COMING.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:21 PM on September 23, 2014 [17 favorites]
it's apparently something that is always a hot topic in September.
I wonder if that's just a Metafilter pattern or if it is more general than that.
Every decision about being a parent or not being a parent is fine, but you really sound like a dope if you try to rationalize why.
I disagree. I wish more people did give it some careful thought, and I think one of the best ways to facilitate that would be for us (societally I mean, rather than a specific criticism of the conversations here) to be way less judgmental and intrusive about people's choices on this matter.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:22 PM on September 23, 2014 [27 favorites]
I wonder if that's just a Metafilter pattern or if it is more general than that.
Every decision about being a parent or not being a parent is fine, but you really sound like a dope if you try to rationalize why.
I disagree. I wish more people did give it some careful thought, and I think one of the best ways to facilitate that would be for us (societally I mean, rather than a specific criticism of the conversations here) to be way less judgmental and intrusive about people's choices on this matter.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:22 PM on September 23, 2014 [27 favorites]
>Want to know something weird? Check out the childfree tag, it's apparently something that is always a hot topic in September.
This is a little meta, but in the U.S. September (sometimes August) is the most popular month to give birth. I wonder if the childfree stories are a reaction to the rise in births at that time of year.
I really like Kate Harding, and I admire her reasons. I have a child myself; he's almost 3, and it's both rewarding and so hard. I never thought that constant interruption would drive me half-mad, but here we are. Half-mad and unable to do anything for more than 10 minutes at a stretch.
>Not having children is having moment right now, I think.
Oh, for pete's sake, I meant "having a moment." (I wrote that comment while supervising bathtime, and I was proud of the fact that it had two links. That's how far my standards have fallen.)
posted by purpleclover at 8:22 PM on September 23, 2014 [10 favorites]
This is a little meta, but in the U.S. September (sometimes August) is the most popular month to give birth. I wonder if the childfree stories are a reaction to the rise in births at that time of year.
I really like Kate Harding, and I admire her reasons. I have a child myself; he's almost 3, and it's both rewarding and so hard. I never thought that constant interruption would drive me half-mad, but here we are. Half-mad and unable to do anything for more than 10 minutes at a stretch.
>Not having children is having moment right now, I think.
Oh, for pete's sake, I meant "having a moment." (I wrote that comment while supervising bathtime, and I was proud of the fact that it had two links. That's how far my standards have fallen.)
posted by purpleclover at 8:22 PM on September 23, 2014 [10 favorites]
Viable counterpoints to every time Idiocracy is brought up as if it has any basis in fact: SMBC, XKCD.
Seriously. It's a just-so story for people who fancy themselves 'smarter than the average person' and want to be able to rail against 'the wrong people' breeding.
Can we move past reflexively bringing it up every time (people making informed choices about reproduction) is a topic?
posted by CrystalDave at 8:24 PM on September 23, 2014 [29 favorites]
Seriously. It's a just-so story for people who fancy themselves 'smarter than the average person' and want to be able to rail against 'the wrong people' breeding.
Can we move past reflexively bringing it up every time (people making informed choices about reproduction) is a topic?
posted by CrystalDave at 8:24 PM on September 23, 2014 [29 favorites]
I wonder if that's just a Metafilter pattern or if it is more general than that.
Anecdotally, I am a September child, and so are at least 3 dozen people I know. There's just not a whole lot to do in January when you're up to your ass in snow...
More on topic, the only reason anyone needs to have a child is "I want to make this new person, and help it be the best it can be." The only reason anyone needs to not have one is "I don't wanna."
I find the notion of getting all up in someone else's reproductive bidniz revolting and crass. Elder Monster and his Intended are taking all kinds of shit right now for not getting hitched and spawning, and are pretty grateful that my opinion on the matter is "You do you, babes. Just be happy."
Seriously, what kind of rude assholes are people who demand other people reproduce?
posted by MissySedai at 8:35 PM on September 23, 2014 [19 favorites]
Anecdotally, I am a September child, and so are at least 3 dozen people I know. There's just not a whole lot to do in January when you're up to your ass in snow...
More on topic, the only reason anyone needs to have a child is "I want to make this new person, and help it be the best it can be." The only reason anyone needs to not have one is "I don't wanna."
I find the notion of getting all up in someone else's reproductive bidniz revolting and crass. Elder Monster and his Intended are taking all kinds of shit right now for not getting hitched and spawning, and are pretty grateful that my opinion on the matter is "You do you, babes. Just be happy."
Seriously, what kind of rude assholes are people who demand other people reproduce?
posted by MissySedai at 8:35 PM on September 23, 2014 [19 favorites]
LobsterMitten: "Want to know something weird? Check out the childfree tag, it's apparently something that is always a hot topic in September."
Is the fact that September is the most common birth year in the US coincidence, correlation, or causation?
No doubt September is also the height of "LOOK AT MY NEW CHILD" posts on mommy blogs and facebook.
posted by Old Man McKay at 8:35 PM on September 23, 2014
Is the fact that September is the most common birth year in the US coincidence, correlation, or causation?
No doubt September is also the height of "LOOK AT MY NEW CHILD" posts on mommy blogs and facebook.
posted by Old Man McKay at 8:35 PM on September 23, 2014
Annual reminder to double-check your birth control preferences, WINTER IS COMING.
My wife is the best birth control EVER. ;)
posted by joycehealy at 8:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
My wife is the best birth control EVER. ;)
posted by joycehealy at 8:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's funny. Her fears about passing on disease and mental illness are the same as the fears my husband had when I met him. I wasn't sure I wanted kids, either. For a long time, I was sure I didn't. I was really on his case to get a vasectomy for awhile, but he said he was afraid I'd change my mind. I was insulted. And then I changed my mind, and he did, too. We talk a lot about how it's the best thing we ever did. I think things would have been fine, in other ways, if he got the vasectomy. We would have had a life. But only in retrospect can I see how it wouldn't have been the best life, for us, personally.
One of those things you can't know unless you do it, which is a lot of things, of course. I didn't know I would hate grad school until I was there, but I guess that's less important than learning you hate your child.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:54 PM on September 23, 2014 [8 favorites]
One of those things you can't know unless you do it, which is a lot of things, of course. I didn't know I would hate grad school until I was there, but I guess that's less important than learning you hate your child.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:54 PM on September 23, 2014 [8 favorites]
People sure make this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. If you're not really, really, really into the idea of having and raising kids...then don't do it. The opinions of other people don't mean shit. If you and/or your partner aren't sure then there's absolutely no reason you have to. Same goes for getting married.
Why do adults agonize so much over bullshit their parents or friends or magazines or TV tell them they should want? Just want what you want.
posted by trackofalljades at 8:58 PM on September 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
Why do adults agonize so much over bullshit their parents or friends or magazines or TV tell them they should want? Just want what you want.
posted by trackofalljades at 8:58 PM on September 23, 2014 [15 favorites]
Half-mad and unable to do anything for more than 10 minutes at a stretch.
School is coming soon, though. Faster than you would believe. Then you MISS the little shit! And then you go all the way mad, but it's OK. It's kind of fun there. ;)
posted by MissySedai at 9:06 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
School is coming soon, though. Faster than you would believe. Then you MISS the little shit! And then you go all the way mad, but it's OK. It's kind of fun there. ;)
posted by MissySedai at 9:06 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Why do adults agonize so much over bullshit their parents or friends or magazines or TV tell them they should want? Just want what you want.
Because there's a massive entire capitalist world economy scientifically designed and rigorously tested to make you question your choices and conform to the herd because cultivating constant anxiety over things you didn't even know you should be anxious about is one of the core fundamentals of advertising and the modern economy.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:08 PM on September 23, 2014 [74 favorites]
Because there's a massive entire capitalist world economy scientifically designed and rigorously tested to make you question your choices and conform to the herd because cultivating constant anxiety over things you didn't even know you should be anxious about is one of the core fundamentals of advertising and the modern economy.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:08 PM on September 23, 2014 [74 favorites]
I'm edging up on 30, and I decided recently that I'm going to sign up to foster-parent when I turn 35. I am also mostly but not quite 100% sure that I'll never have biological kids. My reasons are similar to Kate Harding's: I would almost certainly pass on the anxiety and ADHD that run rampant in my family, not to mention our traditional 50th birthday gift of Type II diabetes.
I actually like kids, though, very much-- I worked in after-school programs for years, and still nanny part-time. I've looked after school-age kids of all sorts of temperaments and interests and ability levels, even kids with emotional problems and learning disorders. Above the age of four or so, I find kids interesting and fun to be around. I think I'd actually be a pretty good parent.
However, I have precisely zero interest in being responsible for a baby or toddler for any length of time, and zero investment in passing on my genes, and negative interest in ever being pregnant (the thought of which, irrationally, gives me the body-horror shudders). And you can't actually skip the pregnancy and infancy bits if you're making a kid from scratch, nor can you hand off your newborn to someone who will look after it until it's talking and potty-trained.
So: foster-parenting. There are tons of awesome kids in the world (who can carry on a conversation, and also go to the bathroom unaided) in need of adults to care for them, and that is something I absolutely have the skillset for.
posted by nonasuch at 9:13 PM on September 23, 2014 [20 favorites]
I actually like kids, though, very much-- I worked in after-school programs for years, and still nanny part-time. I've looked after school-age kids of all sorts of temperaments and interests and ability levels, even kids with emotional problems and learning disorders. Above the age of four or so, I find kids interesting and fun to be around. I think I'd actually be a pretty good parent.
However, I have precisely zero interest in being responsible for a baby or toddler for any length of time, and zero investment in passing on my genes, and negative interest in ever being pregnant (the thought of which, irrationally, gives me the body-horror shudders). And you can't actually skip the pregnancy and infancy bits if you're making a kid from scratch, nor can you hand off your newborn to someone who will look after it until it's talking and potty-trained.
So: foster-parenting. There are tons of awesome kids in the world (who can carry on a conversation, and also go to the bathroom unaided) in need of adults to care for them, and that is something I absolutely have the skillset for.
posted by nonasuch at 9:13 PM on September 23, 2014 [20 favorites]
Instead of trying to “have it all,” why couldn't I choose having enough?
I once had a therapist tell me that "Often, good enough is good enough." Yep, a game-changer that one, if you can internalize it.
posted by SpacemanStix at 9:15 PM on September 23, 2014 [10 favorites]
I once had a therapist tell me that "Often, good enough is good enough." Yep, a game-changer that one, if you can internalize it.
posted by SpacemanStix at 9:15 PM on September 23, 2014 [10 favorites]
I actually had really similar feelings about pregnancy, nonasuch. And it turns out that I disliked being pregnant exactly as much as I thought I would. Other than it giving me superhero smelling powers, it was awful. I mean, by the end, I peed myself constantly, I cried all the time, and I could hardly walk or eat.
I was so, so worried that meant I wouldn't like motherhood. I had similarly ambivalent feelings about babyhood, though I absolutely love kids. The funny thing is, I love my little daughter so much that I'd do it all again in a heartbeat, and she's still shitting her pants thrice daily. I honestly think it wouldn't quite suck so much now that I know what comes after. I mean, I knew. But not in the bone deep and terribly loving way that I do now.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:29 PM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
I was so, so worried that meant I wouldn't like motherhood. I had similarly ambivalent feelings about babyhood, though I absolutely love kids. The funny thing is, I love my little daughter so much that I'd do it all again in a heartbeat, and she's still shitting her pants thrice daily. I honestly think it wouldn't quite suck so much now that I know what comes after. I mean, I knew. But not in the bone deep and terribly loving way that I do now.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:29 PM on September 23, 2014 [5 favorites]
I'm pretty much convinced my biological clock is broken -- I'm close to 38 and I've never been pregnant, accidentally or otherwise, nor have I ever wanted children. Keeping the human race going isn't that important to me (look at us, we're a mess -- we're running out of potable water, our public education is in shambles, and women and POC are treated like garbage). And I'm happy for my friends who are having babies and posting loads of baby pics on Facebook, but at the same time, yes it is alienating. So I appreciate the childfree point of view whenever I see it. (FWIW, I hate Idiocracy.)
posted by mirepoix at 9:30 PM on September 23, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by mirepoix at 9:30 PM on September 23, 2014 [11 favorites]
Because there's a massive entire capitalist world economy scientifically designed and rigorously tested to make you question your choices and conform to the herd because cultivating constant anxiety over things you didn't even know you should be anxious about is one of the core fundamentals of advertising and the modern economy.
If someone genuinely feels like they can't control their own thoughts and that the choices they make are somehow someone else's fault and responsibility...then yeah, it might be a good idea for them to skip parenting. Just my $0.02 there.
posted by trackofalljades at 9:34 PM on September 23, 2014 [6 favorites]
If someone genuinely feels like they can't control their own thoughts and that the choices they make are somehow someone else's fault and responsibility...then yeah, it might be a good idea for them to skip parenting. Just my $0.02 there.
posted by trackofalljades at 9:34 PM on September 23, 2014 [6 favorites]
Jezebel's "first on the scene of verboten truths" posture is starting to bother me. Its like they're trend hunting this stuff, which is always a highly constructive kind of thing. In the linked thing, the phenomenon is as much as anything abstracted from going over all the logical possibilities. On the other hand, I found that New Yorker thing really powerful.
posted by batfish at 9:37 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by batfish at 9:37 PM on September 23, 2014 [2 favorites]
I've always felt that if anyone ever had any doubts about parenting, don't do it. I chose not to have kids once I figured out that I really might not like it at all. There's no reset button, no take backs on kids; if I regretted it once they were born I could only imagine how fucked up of a parent that could potentially make me.
I guess it's more about the parenting than being a progenitor of someone. I'd have no problem having a child out there as long as I didn't have to spend any resources on them.
posted by ZaneJ. at 9:38 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I guess it's more about the parenting than being a progenitor of someone. I'd have no problem having a child out there as long as I didn't have to spend any resources on them.
posted by ZaneJ. at 9:38 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
How can you not have doubts, though? Any sensible human being would. It's a huge undertaking which tests your emotional resilience and patience and is often flat-out exhausting. It can also be physically dangerous for the parent carrying the baby. The precipice of parenthood--the one before both birth and deciding to get knocked up--is a pretty common place to have doubts and fears.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:43 PM on September 23, 2014 [22 favorites]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:43 PM on September 23, 2014 [22 favorites]
I dunno, PhoBWanKenobi--I know plenty of people who went blithely into parenthood without giving it any forethought whatsoever. Whether that's because they thought everything would work itself out, or because reproducing is just the expected thing to do, I don't know.
posted by orrnyereg at 9:47 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 9:47 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
If someone genuinely feels like they can't control their own thoughts and that the choices they make are somehow someone else's fault and responsibility...then yeah, it might be a good idea for them to skip parenting.
If someone genuinely feels like societal pressure, and the vast resources devoted to the marketing industry, are all for naught then yeah, it might be a good idea for them to not judge other people.
posted by pompomtom at 9:47 PM on September 23, 2014 [22 favorites]
If someone genuinely feels like societal pressure, and the vast resources devoted to the marketing industry, are all for naught then yeah, it might be a good idea for them to not judge other people.
posted by pompomtom at 9:47 PM on September 23, 2014 [22 favorites]
Which isn't to say that there aren't perfectly good reasons for not having children. But honestly, sometimes I feel like it's really just a matter of instinct, and following that instinct, and if you're a woman, you eventually you get to a point--either when you have a baby or when you're no longer fertile--where you just have to make peace with whatever it is you've done.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:48 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:48 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
Whether that's because they thought everything would work itself out, or because reproducing is just the expected thing to do, I don't know.
Well, many pregnancies aren't planned, so that's a factor. But most of the young, educated parents that I know who chose parenthood still navigate spaces of doubt, fear, and anxiety. If you parent deliberately and thoughtfully, it's just kind of part of the deal.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:50 PM on September 23, 2014
Well, many pregnancies aren't planned, so that's a factor. But most of the young, educated parents that I know who chose parenthood still navigate spaces of doubt, fear, and anxiety. If you parent deliberately and thoughtfully, it's just kind of part of the deal.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:50 PM on September 23, 2014
trackofalljades: "If someone genuinely feels like they can't control their own thoughts and that the choices they make are somehow someone else's fault and responsibility...then yeah, it might be a good idea for them to skip parenting. Just my $0.02 there."
I'm guessing no one has ever questioned your humanity because you said you didn't enjoy children, and that you've rarely if ever had your explanation dismissed with, "Oh, it's different when it's your own." (That explanation having been solicited during conversation with a family member, friend, boss, doctor, or other person whom one does not wish to offend despite their failure to provide similar consideration.)
Also, look at yourself: half an hour after dismissing the notion that adults listen to their families and friends when it comes to family-building decisions, you, An Internet Stranger, offered an unsolicited two cents' about who should become a parent.
posted by gingerest at 10:05 PM on September 23, 2014 [57 favorites]
I'm guessing no one has ever questioned your humanity because you said you didn't enjoy children, and that you've rarely if ever had your explanation dismissed with, "Oh, it's different when it's your own." (That explanation having been solicited during conversation with a family member, friend, boss, doctor, or other person whom one does not wish to offend despite their failure to provide similar consideration.)
Also, look at yourself: half an hour after dismissing the notion that adults listen to their families and friends when it comes to family-building decisions, you, An Internet Stranger, offered an unsolicited two cents' about who should become a parent.
posted by gingerest at 10:05 PM on September 23, 2014 [57 favorites]
How can you not have doubts, though? Any sensible human being would.
I agree with PhoBWanKenobi. Sure there are a whole lot of people who just know they are going to have kids - but I don't actually know many people like that. Most of the people I know agonised over their decision to have or not have kids.
posted by meech at 10:51 PM on September 23, 2014
I agree with PhoBWanKenobi. Sure there are a whole lot of people who just know they are going to have kids - but I don't actually know many people like that. Most of the people I know agonised over their decision to have or not have kids.
posted by meech at 10:51 PM on September 23, 2014
Seriously, what kind of rude assholes are people who demand other people reproduce?
For those that ask this question, does this happen a lot? Threads on this subject are invariably anchored in the idea that there's all this external pressure to have kids. I have a child myself, but I can relate to that pressure before I had a child (and similar pressure before I was married). But even then--and especially now--I know that pressure was internal, not external. No one literally said to me, seriously, that I should reproduce. In a joking manner, maybe, but any pressure triggered from that is, again, internal; what I think my social group and society as a whole expects of me.
In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce--any pressure felt is going to be your own internal voice telling you what to do. In other words, it sounds really whiny and victim-y. Look, you don't want kids, fine. Own it. Ownership of anything has a price, and that little (internal) voice in your head that sometimes says "What if...?" is it for non-parents. That works for parents, too: a voice that says "Hey if you hadn't had kids, you could [insert fantasy here]."
posted by zardoz at 11:04 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
For those that ask this question, does this happen a lot? Threads on this subject are invariably anchored in the idea that there's all this external pressure to have kids. I have a child myself, but I can relate to that pressure before I had a child (and similar pressure before I was married). But even then--and especially now--I know that pressure was internal, not external. No one literally said to me, seriously, that I should reproduce. In a joking manner, maybe, but any pressure triggered from that is, again, internal; what I think my social group and society as a whole expects of me.
In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce--any pressure felt is going to be your own internal voice telling you what to do. In other words, it sounds really whiny and victim-y. Look, you don't want kids, fine. Own it. Ownership of anything has a price, and that little (internal) voice in your head that sometimes says "What if...?" is it for non-parents. That works for parents, too: a voice that says "Hey if you hadn't had kids, you could [insert fantasy here]."
posted by zardoz at 11:04 PM on September 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
No one literally said to me, seriously, that I should reproduce.
...
In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce--any pressure felt is going to be your own internal voice telling you what to do.
You may be surprised to learn that other people have other experiences.
posted by pompomtom at 11:18 PM on September 23, 2014 [52 favorites]
...
In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce--any pressure felt is going to be your own internal voice telling you what to do.
You may be surprised to learn that other people have other experiences.
posted by pompomtom at 11:18 PM on September 23, 2014 [52 favorites]
I can report that yes, I've been asked this question a lot. Some people are just asking in a friendly way and are willing to be put off by a polite evasion, and a few people are pushier about getting into reasons which they will then insistently debate. I think it may depend how culturally pushy/nosy/into each other's business the people around you are?
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:19 PM on September 23, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:19 PM on September 23, 2014 [7 favorites]
The problems extend beyond dealing with overt questions about whether you want kids, or overt doubt about the answer you give. Potentially more problematic are the things left unsaid:
- That a woman is inferior as a human being for not conforming to traditional gender roles and wanting kids.
- That even if she has demonstrated her dedication to her career path, she's likely to get the motherly urge and drop out of work on a moment's notice. Better give the promotion to a guy instead.
posted by mantecol at 11:25 PM on September 23, 2014 [19 favorites]
- That a woman is inferior as a human being for not conforming to traditional gender roles and wanting kids.
- That even if she has demonstrated her dedication to her career path, she's likely to get the motherly urge and drop out of work on a moment's notice. Better give the promotion to a guy instead.
posted by mantecol at 11:25 PM on September 23, 2014 [19 favorites]
No one literally said to me, seriously, that I should reproduce
Pretty sure that, at least until I had my vasectomy and I was able to finally say "You think I don't know what I want?", I got this monthly, at least. (It got the message across, so it comes up unwarranted less now) You may not have gotten external pressure, but don't generalize that to everyone else.
I don't need your "You'd make such a good parent, and other people are bad parents, so if you don't have kids, you're leaving them to be abused".
I don't need your "We need smart people like you to reproduce".
I don't need your "You can't really know what you want until after you have kids of your own".
I don't need your "It would be irresponsible, your parents might want grandchildren".
I don't need your "Someone you date down the line might want kids, and it would be disregarding her wishes if you made this choice".
I don't need your "What if your siblings turn out sterile, wouldn't you want to carry on the family line?".
I don't need your "You'll change your mind when you're 18, no, 20, no, 21, no 22, no...".
I don't need your "It's a selfish choice, really".
I don't need your "Why don't you think of something besides your own wants".
I don't need your "You aren't really an adult until you have children".
My body, my choice. My life, my choice.
(And yes, this is using the general 'you' rather than the specific 'you', since obviously you didn't say all of those things. They're all things I've heard said to my face, though. My apologies if that sounded a bit direct, this just gets to be a bit of a raw point when it's repeated so frequently)
posted by CrystalDave at 11:31 PM on September 23, 2014 [39 favorites]
Pretty sure that, at least until I had my vasectomy and I was able to finally say "You think I don't know what I want?", I got this monthly, at least. (It got the message across, so it comes up unwarranted less now) You may not have gotten external pressure, but don't generalize that to everyone else.
I don't need your "You'd make such a good parent, and other people are bad parents, so if you don't have kids, you're leaving them to be abused".
I don't need your "We need smart people like you to reproduce".
I don't need your "You can't really know what you want until after you have kids of your own".
I don't need your "It would be irresponsible, your parents might want grandchildren".
I don't need your "Someone you date down the line might want kids, and it would be disregarding her wishes if you made this choice".
I don't need your "What if your siblings turn out sterile, wouldn't you want to carry on the family line?".
I don't need your "You'll change your mind when you're 18, no, 20, no, 21, no 22, no...".
I don't need your "It's a selfish choice, really".
I don't need your "Why don't you think of something besides your own wants".
I don't need your "You aren't really an adult until you have children".
My body, my choice. My life, my choice.
(And yes, this is using the general 'you' rather than the specific 'you', since obviously you didn't say all of those things. They're all things I've heard said to my face, though. My apologies if that sounded a bit direct, this just gets to be a bit of a raw point when it's repeated so frequently)
posted by CrystalDave at 11:31 PM on September 23, 2014 [39 favorites]
All I can tell you is that my mother started bugging me about it long before I was married and it was a source of friction. My father, less, but still. My in-laws didn't ask me, but I know they asked. I have also fielded the question from people at parties, from friends and from co-workers. It's part of the background noise at weddings and baby showers.
There's also been a lot of "when you have kids...", which isn't a question but certainly communicates an expectation. That came from a lot of directions, too.
It is not a voice inside my head. It is actual people making words by flapping their talk-meat. I posit that if I were "whiny and victim-y" about it, I would consider "have any kids?" a problematic inquiry. It's not the problem. "Why not?" is the problem. I have never heard anyone respond to "Yeah! {age and sex of children}" with "Why?"
I am 44. I have, presumably, had longer to be queried about it, and thus note it and become irritated by it, than some. I still get "Why not?" but am getting "Don't want kids? Oh, you'll change your mind" less often as I visibly reach A Certain Age.
posted by gingerest at 11:35 PM on September 23, 2014 [18 favorites]
There's also been a lot of "when you have kids...", which isn't a question but certainly communicates an expectation. That came from a lot of directions, too.
It is not a voice inside my head. It is actual people making words by flapping their talk-meat. I posit that if I were "whiny and victim-y" about it, I would consider "have any kids?" a problematic inquiry. It's not the problem. "Why not?" is the problem. I have never heard anyone respond to "Yeah! {age and sex of children}" with "Why?"
I am 44. I have, presumably, had longer to be queried about it, and thus note it and become irritated by it, than some. I still get "Why not?" but am getting "Don't want kids? Oh, you'll change your mind" less often as I visibly reach A Certain Age.
posted by gingerest at 11:35 PM on September 23, 2014 [18 favorites]
My mom has been putting aside baby clothes and toys for my future potential offspring since I was 20. Just yesterday, she texted me to ask if she should get the half-off playmobil zoo set with monkeys for possible grandchildren. At 16, my great grandfather told me he was really looking forward to meeting his great-great grandchildren. Of course, on the other side of that set of pressures is the no-baby academic pressure of a scientific graduate program - and there are days when I want a baby just to prove to my department that it can be done. But that is not a very good reason to have a baby, for the moment.
posted by ChuraChura at 11:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 11:51 PM on September 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
negative interest in ever being pregnant (the thought of which, irrationally, gives me the body-horror shudders)
I don't see what would possibly be irrational about having body-horror about pregnancy.
Or maybe nonasuch meant irrational in comparison to body-horror about childbirth -- OK, good point then.
posted by yohko at 12:34 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't see what would possibly be irrational about having body-horror about pregnancy.
Or maybe nonasuch meant irrational in comparison to body-horror about childbirth -- OK, good point then.
posted by yohko at 12:34 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think Kate had a good point in that everyone is told that being a parent is literally the greatest thing in the universe and everyone loves it immediately and you cannot pass it up, period. If someone tells you this, how can you not at least wonder if you should do it even if otherwise you have zero interest?
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:43 AM on September 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:43 AM on September 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
I don't see what would possibly be irrational about having body-horror about pregnancy.
I am a dude so what do I really know, but I was hanging out with my sister-in-law last night, who is having a child (by herself, interestingly, 'cause she just wanted a kid and is like "fuck it, I don't need a guy," which I think is awesome but that's another story), and she was talking about how her skin is stretching but it doesn't break and it's kind of freaking her out, and the little bugger kicks her at night and her body changes shape because of it, and how it's weird to know there is someone...something growing inside of her. She ended by saying, "it's basically like an alien parasite."
Frankly it seems irrational to me to not have body-horror about pregnancy.
posted by dubitable at 12:43 AM on September 24, 2014 [24 favorites]
I am a dude so what do I really know, but I was hanging out with my sister-in-law last night, who is having a child (by herself, interestingly, 'cause she just wanted a kid and is like "fuck it, I don't need a guy," which I think is awesome but that's another story), and she was talking about how her skin is stretching but it doesn't break and it's kind of freaking her out, and the little bugger kicks her at night and her body changes shape because of it, and how it's weird to know there is someone...something growing inside of her. She ended by saying, "it's basically like an alien parasite."
Frankly it seems irrational to me to not have body-horror about pregnancy.
posted by dubitable at 12:43 AM on September 24, 2014 [24 favorites]
A family friend suggested to my wife -- seriously, while I had stepped out of the room -- that she stop taking birth control and lie to me about it so that she would get "accidentally" pregnant. Because, obviously, she is a woman and MUST want to have a baby, and I'm getting in her way!
This sort of thing happens all the time to many childless couples. To say "if you don't want children, just don't have them! Stop writing about it!" ignores the fact that for the vast majority of people in the world, particularly women, having children is normative, and there is tremendous pressure (in many subtle, tiny ways) to have children.
To say "Just don't have them!" betrays the fact that you don't understand the massive privilege you have to live in a society where it is even an option for a woman not to have children. This didn't happen magically; it happened because people *wrote and talked about childlessness as an option*.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 12:51 AM on September 24, 2014 [68 favorites]
This sort of thing happens all the time to many childless couples. To say "if you don't want children, just don't have them! Stop writing about it!" ignores the fact that for the vast majority of people in the world, particularly women, having children is normative, and there is tremendous pressure (in many subtle, tiny ways) to have children.
To say "Just don't have them!" betrays the fact that you don't understand the massive privilege you have to live in a society where it is even an option for a woman not to have children. This didn't happen magically; it happened because people *wrote and talked about childlessness as an option*.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 12:51 AM on September 24, 2014 [68 favorites]
I think Kate had a good point in that everyone is told that being a parent is literally the greatest thing in the universe and everyone loves it immediately and you cannot pass it up, period.
In most other situations, you would assume a person saying something like that is trying to cheat you.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 12:54 AM on September 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
In most other situations, you would assume a person saying something like that is trying to cheat you.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 12:54 AM on September 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
CrystalDave, those comments (that were actually said to your face!) are appalling! It's only because I don't want to come across as yet another person telling you what you should do that I am NOT going to ask you if they are still in your life, but wow. That's some nasty stuff.
I think there's a big difference between that experience and, "When are you going to have kids?" though. The majority of people have kids, for whatever reason (or by accident, with no reasoning involved). It's the default position and that's why the assumption is made.
Same as when we'd ask our friends, back in high school when we were all seniors, "So, where are you going to schooll?" meaning, of couse, what college. We didn't ask if. We all had roughly the same expectation, so we assumed.
And sometimes we were wrong and a friend would say something like, "Actually, I'm not going anywhere." And we might ask, "Why not?" Then, too, like people ask those of you who choose not to have kids. But it wasn't out of judgment, it was out of curiosity because they were bucking the trend. So there's a different perspective on the pressure aspect of it.
And I think, honestly, for every one of you who doesn't want kids and flat out says so, there are at least as many who either equivocate or deflect the question, which everyone has a right to do, of course. You do that because you don't want to get into it, but that's why the question comes up again. You feel pressured, but the person asking is just curious, or making conversation because you never really gave a straight answer before.
posted by misha at 1:04 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
I think there's a big difference between that experience and, "When are you going to have kids?" though. The majority of people have kids, for whatever reason (or by accident, with no reasoning involved). It's the default position and that's why the assumption is made.
Same as when we'd ask our friends, back in high school when we were all seniors, "So, where are you going to schooll?" meaning, of couse, what college. We didn't ask if. We all had roughly the same expectation, so we assumed.
And sometimes we were wrong and a friend would say something like, "Actually, I'm not going anywhere." And we might ask, "Why not?" Then, too, like people ask those of you who choose not to have kids. But it wasn't out of judgment, it was out of curiosity because they were bucking the trend. So there's a different perspective on the pressure aspect of it.
And I think, honestly, for every one of you who doesn't want kids and flat out says so, there are at least as many who either equivocate or deflect the question, which everyone has a right to do, of course. You do that because you don't want to get into it, but that's why the question comes up again. You feel pressured, but the person asking is just curious, or making conversation because you never really gave a straight answer before.
posted by misha at 1:04 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
I was sure I wanted kids. Then I hit depression number three in my mid-30s. One was early 20s. Two was 5-6 years later. Anyway, in the depths of that third one (which lasted in its worst phase for 18 months) I thought, no kid should get these genes. And suddenly my desires just flipped. I no longer wanted kids. I no longer could see myself with them. It was like the urge to reproduce evaporated. I'm great with kids. I'd be a great parent. The only time I get at all wistful is when I think that I'll be the first of my ancestors all the way back to the primordial soup that hasn't passed on the genes.
The fact that I'd probably have to come off my jenga-like antidepressant regimen to spawn also helps.
I have to say, though, I hope my brother has kids.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:06 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
The fact that I'd probably have to come off my jenga-like antidepressant regimen to spawn also helps.
I have to say, though, I hope my brother has kids.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:06 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also, thanks for the post and for the thread.
posted by persona au gratin at 1:11 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by persona au gratin at 1:11 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
And, on the other side, you get people like Philosopher_Dirtbike mentions, who are messed up and DO try to put pressure on you to conform! So I'm sure there is pressure, too, and I didn't address that before and meant to. Just wanted to also make the point that not everyone wants to or means to pressure you.
posted by misha at 1:14 AM on September 24, 2014
posted by misha at 1:14 AM on September 24, 2014
I liked this article. It's not that her decision is all that uncommon or outspoken, but that she laid out her thinking well enough that other people who are sitting on the same fence could become comfortable with never spawning as a reasonable and un-scary permanent decision.
On the other hand, she visibly made a real leap in logic, skipping an important point. You shouldn't get pregnant because you want A BABY. You won't get one for long. You do it because you want a child, a tween, a teen, a young adult, etc. She rationalizes her decision by talking about her Chihuahua -- it's a lot like a baby, so she has that already! But the dog is going to stay "a baby." She doesn't talk about the loss of those potential future experiences.
A couple of my friends have joked to me that they'd like to have kids only if they could send them away until they're old enough to talk and manage their own bodily functions. (Like those English aristocrats who first saw their sons when they were formally introduced at the age of five!) Some people, like nonasuch above, really want a KID more than they want a BABY. Nothing wrong with that!
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 1:20 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, she visibly made a real leap in logic, skipping an important point. You shouldn't get pregnant because you want A BABY. You won't get one for long. You do it because you want a child, a tween, a teen, a young adult, etc. She rationalizes her decision by talking about her Chihuahua -- it's a lot like a baby, so she has that already! But the dog is going to stay "a baby." She doesn't talk about the loss of those potential future experiences.
A couple of my friends have joked to me that they'd like to have kids only if they could send them away until they're old enough to talk and manage their own bodily functions. (Like those English aristocrats who first saw their sons when they were formally introduced at the age of five!) Some people, like nonasuch above, really want a KID more than they want a BABY. Nothing wrong with that!
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 1:20 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
You may be surprised to learn that other people have other experiences.
This is really passive-aggressive and annoying. For constructive debate, please be specific with your own personal experiences to dispute my point, rather than just throwing out lazy snark.
posted by zardoz at 1:28 AM on September 24, 2014
This is really passive-aggressive and annoying. For constructive debate, please be specific with your own personal experiences to dispute my point, rather than just throwing out lazy snark.
posted by zardoz at 1:28 AM on September 24, 2014
Okay, I'll give that a go.
My wife caught all kinds of shit for being ambivalent about not wanting kids, and then taking steps (well that was me, actually) to seal that fate. The first I heard of it was from her sister shortly after we married when we were bandying about vasectomy with "she's wanted to have a baby since she was a child" - as though that's a valid reason to procreate. And working retail, my wife would come home almost weekly with stories about customers, perfect strangers who asked her about her kids. When she told them we didn't have them the response was almost universally shock, and in a few cases pro-pregnancy lectures. Eventually she resorted to "we can't have them" to shut people up.
Fast forward to now, almost thirty years later. My sweetheart is over 50 with graying hair (but even more beautiful) and the question has changed from kids to grand-kids, with the same negative reactions when told we don't have any.
posted by SteveInMaine at 3:14 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
My wife caught all kinds of shit for being ambivalent about not wanting kids, and then taking steps (well that was me, actually) to seal that fate. The first I heard of it was from her sister shortly after we married when we were bandying about vasectomy with "she's wanted to have a baby since she was a child" - as though that's a valid reason to procreate. And working retail, my wife would come home almost weekly with stories about customers, perfect strangers who asked her about her kids. When she told them we didn't have them the response was almost universally shock, and in a few cases pro-pregnancy lectures. Eventually she resorted to "we can't have them" to shut people up.
Fast forward to now, almost thirty years later. My sweetheart is over 50 with graying hair (but even more beautiful) and the question has changed from kids to grand-kids, with the same negative reactions when told we don't have any.
posted by SteveInMaine at 3:14 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
This sort of thing happens all the time to many childless couples.
What I'm interested in is as - in the west - family size, fertility rates etc etc begin to drop, if this discourse will change to accommodate the increasing demographic shift. I mean, even now (here at any rate) the decision or simple reality of not having kids is really not so uncommon. Will this change the discourse? Will having children start to be viewed as another lifestyle choice, like having a boat or a pool, that is viewed as not universally desirable or possible?
I have two kids. But I started a new, more demanding, job this year, and I believe the majority of our fairly largeish team don't. And I can see why, in this kind of job, they don't. Because if you're career-focused it is definitely easier not to have kids. They can pull long hours, still live in the city in a studio apartment with a minutes-long commute. Still have the ability to work long hours and exercise a lot. Etc etc. I can easily see an alternative path where I hit this kind of job earlier, and the time was never right to have a kid, and it was less of a priority for me.
I would be interested to hear from any mefites in Japan or Korea - both countries with plummeting birth rates.
posted by smoke at 3:17 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
What I'm interested in is as - in the west - family size, fertility rates etc etc begin to drop, if this discourse will change to accommodate the increasing demographic shift. I mean, even now (here at any rate) the decision or simple reality of not having kids is really not so uncommon. Will this change the discourse? Will having children start to be viewed as another lifestyle choice, like having a boat or a pool, that is viewed as not universally desirable or possible?
I have two kids. But I started a new, more demanding, job this year, and I believe the majority of our fairly largeish team don't. And I can see why, in this kind of job, they don't. Because if you're career-focused it is definitely easier not to have kids. They can pull long hours, still live in the city in a studio apartment with a minutes-long commute. Still have the ability to work long hours and exercise a lot. Etc etc. I can easily see an alternative path where I hit this kind of job earlier, and the time was never right to have a kid, and it was less of a priority for me.
I would be interested to hear from any mefites in Japan or Korea - both countries with plummeting birth rates.
posted by smoke at 3:17 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Another data point here: I always wanted to be childless and have remained so. For a while spouse hoped I would change my mind. As it turned out, the decision was ultimately out of my hands, as cancer surgery at age 36 made pregnancy impossible. (Spouse and I also have a slew of medical conditions -- mental and physical -- that we have no wish to pass along.)
Before I got to be middle-aged, all kinds of people, from relatives to random cab drivers, would ask me about my plans to procreate. It happened at least once a week. When demurrals didn't work, dropping the medical backstory on them shut that shit right down BOOM.
I've never regretted non-motherhood, and I'm an indifferent aunt.
Kids are fun to watch from a distance.
posted by GrammarMoses at 3:57 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
Before I got to be middle-aged, all kinds of people, from relatives to random cab drivers, would ask me about my plans to procreate. It happened at least once a week. When demurrals didn't work, dropping the medical backstory on them shut that shit right down BOOM.
I've never regretted non-motherhood, and I'm an indifferent aunt.
Kids are fun to watch from a distance.
posted by GrammarMoses at 3:57 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
As a married 30-something middle class woman, I get frequently asked when I'm going to start with the baby-making, and then I usually get a "why not" follow up. I don't actually find this annoying or offensive, but I understand why some people do.
But zardoz , I can think of a bunch of specific situations where people HAVE been offensive or pressured me to have kids, and it can tell you it was explicit and not just internal psychological pressure.
Here's just the ones I remember close enough to word-for-word to quote off the top of my head:
1. My mother: "You'll regret it if you don't. And I really want grandchildren. I just... I just want you to be NORMAL."
2. A colleague: "Of course you want children. Deep down. All women do. You are probably just sublimating the desire because you know it would be hard to combine parenting and a successful career."
3. Another colleague: "I think people are selfish until they become parents. I mean, you probably don't think you are selfish, but your life just revolves around yourself and your own wants and needs. You need to be responsible for dependent helpless creatures to really understand how to care about others."
4. The most recent friend: "okay, I get that you don't WANT to be a parent, but you are the sort of person who should have kids. You can give them a good home, teach them to be good people, put them through a great education... That way you would contribute to increasing the proportion of good people in the world."
posted by lollusc at 4:06 AM on September 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
But zardoz , I can think of a bunch of specific situations where people HAVE been offensive or pressured me to have kids, and it can tell you it was explicit and not just internal psychological pressure.
Here's just the ones I remember close enough to word-for-word to quote off the top of my head:
1. My mother: "You'll regret it if you don't. And I really want grandchildren. I just... I just want you to be NORMAL."
2. A colleague: "Of course you want children. Deep down. All women do. You are probably just sublimating the desire because you know it would be hard to combine parenting and a successful career."
3. Another colleague: "I think people are selfish until they become parents. I mean, you probably don't think you are selfish, but your life just revolves around yourself and your own wants and needs. You need to be responsible for dependent helpless creatures to really understand how to care about others."
4. The most recent friend: "okay, I get that you don't WANT to be a parent, but you are the sort of person who should have kids. You can give them a good home, teach them to be good people, put them through a great education... That way you would contribute to increasing the proportion of good people in the world."
posted by lollusc at 4:06 AM on September 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
I have two young kids - sometimes it's great, sometimes it's awful, and a lot of the time it just is - same as my life before kids, just often with different factors contributing to the great, awful, etc. So, have them, don't have them - I don't care, most intelligent people won't care, and I'm sick of all the journalistic hand-wringing about it (though I do have sympathy for people who want them and can't, for whatever reason).
The real "secret" that we need to talk about is how goddamn hashed-out and boring this is as a topic of conversation.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:28 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
The real "secret" that we need to talk about is how goddamn hashed-out and boring this is as a topic of conversation.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:28 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Our family has accepted our choice to be childfree, but it really does upset me sometimes when people see how great my husband is around kids and says, "He would have made a great father" to me as though people who have opted to remain childfree just kick babies wherever they go or something.
posted by Kitteh at 4:34 AM on September 24, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:34 AM on September 24, 2014 [11 favorites]
We have two kids, both now grown and more-or-less on their own. While I love them to death, I believe I would have been just fine never having kids, too. Now, my wife, on the other hand, wanted to be a mother, period. There was no question in her mind about it.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:52 AM on September 24, 2014
posted by Thorzdad at 4:52 AM on September 24, 2014
The real "secret" that we need to talk about is how goddamn hashed-out and boring this is as a topic of conversation.
As long as we can include in that same talk how 'goddamn hashed-out and boring' the topic of actually being a parent is, cause that sh*t is way more prevalent from where I'm standing.
posted by freya_lamb at 5:08 AM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
As long as we can include in that same talk how 'goddamn hashed-out and boring' the topic of actually being a parent is, cause that sh*t is way more prevalent from where I'm standing.
posted by freya_lamb at 5:08 AM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
"okay, I get that you don't WANT to be a parent, but you are the sort of person who should have kids"
I've heard this one a million times. Why "should" a person/couple create a child that they don't want and thus will resent having had? A child who will undoubtedly sense that resentment before long and feel shitty about it ever after? WTF.
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:36 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
I've heard this one a million times. Why "should" a person/couple create a child that they don't want and thus will resent having had? A child who will undoubtedly sense that resentment before long and feel shitty about it ever after? WTF.
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:36 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
We'd done all the fun stuff. Travel, living overseas, breakable things.
But it got boring. So we had a kid.
Now it's less boring. And he's pretty cool to boot. Lots of love and fun, just slightly larger number of people.
To each their own though.
posted by Lord_Pall at 5:38 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
But it got boring. So we had a kid.
Now it's less boring. And he's pretty cool to boot. Lots of love and fun, just slightly larger number of people.
To each their own though.
posted by Lord_Pall at 5:38 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
My mother made it clear she considered me an irritation. My older sister less so, and it was made plain that she was superior to me. But I don't believe she liked having children.
Mom's gone now. If the topic of kids comes up with my sister, we both quickly assert that we are glad to not have any. We simply saw no model of a happy mother growing up and did not wish the same experience, even though I'm sure we both would have done a better job of parenting.
I'm fine with cats and a parrot.
posted by kinnakeet at 5:38 AM on September 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
Mom's gone now. If the topic of kids comes up with my sister, we both quickly assert that we are glad to not have any. We simply saw no model of a happy mother growing up and did not wish the same experience, even though I'm sure we both would have done a better job of parenting.
I'm fine with cats and a parrot.
posted by kinnakeet at 5:38 AM on September 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
I appreciate this article being posted - there's some stuff there that rings true that I haven't ever seen expressed quite as well before, particularly around the genetic implications of a really, really screwed-up gene pool mental-health-wise.
Or possibly this is just a weird day to hit me with this article, as I just came from a trip to see a part of my partner's family that we rarely see, and it was like stepping into a different world.
In my own daily and family life, I am never asked or badgered about my choice not to have children. On this visit, I was asked repeatedly about my childbearing choices, and offered many unsolicited opinions about my hypothetical parenting skills. It was super weird and uncomfortable and if I had a family where that were my experience day in and day out instead of once every few years? I don't even know. I'm not sure how I would continue to spend time with them without some serious blow-ups over respect for my life choices.
It was a good reminder that as annoyed as I get about societal expectations that I am not a real woman or adult or whatever without kids, I really have it extraordinarily easy compared to many.
posted by Stacey at 5:45 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
Or possibly this is just a weird day to hit me with this article, as I just came from a trip to see a part of my partner's family that we rarely see, and it was like stepping into a different world.
In my own daily and family life, I am never asked or badgered about my choice not to have children. On this visit, I was asked repeatedly about my childbearing choices, and offered many unsolicited opinions about my hypothetical parenting skills. It was super weird and uncomfortable and if I had a family where that were my experience day in and day out instead of once every few years? I don't even know. I'm not sure how I would continue to spend time with them without some serious blow-ups over respect for my life choices.
It was a good reminder that as annoyed as I get about societal expectations that I am not a real woman or adult or whatever without kids, I really have it extraordinarily easy compared to many.
posted by Stacey at 5:45 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
This is really passive-aggressive and annoying. For constructive debate, please be specific with your own personal experiences to dispute my point, rather than just throwing out lazy snark.
You began by rejecting the comments in this and previous discussions about external pressure:
Threads on this subject are invariably anchored in the idea that there's all this external pressure to have kids. ... In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce
If you are starting by just telling everyone that what they have experienced is false, what kind of response are you hoping for? I'd suggest that a more constructive approach is to say "I hear people saying XYZ and I understand how that must feel, but interestingly my own experience has been ABC." That's a constructive and interesting conversation; telling people they are WRONG and FALSE is just silly and rude.
But yes, the external pressure is real and constant, and got old decades ago. People usually mean well (though sometimes it's said in an extremely mean way) but the key is that it just keeps happening, not that any one conversation is in itself appallingly awful.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
You began by rejecting the comments in this and previous discussions about external pressure:
Threads on this subject are invariably anchored in the idea that there's all this external pressure to have kids. ... In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce
If you are starting by just telling everyone that what they have experienced is false, what kind of response are you hoping for? I'd suggest that a more constructive approach is to say "I hear people saying XYZ and I understand how that must feel, but interestingly my own experience has been ABC." That's a constructive and interesting conversation; telling people they are WRONG and FALSE is just silly and rude.
But yes, the external pressure is real and constant, and got old decades ago. People usually mean well (though sometimes it's said in an extremely mean way) but the key is that it just keeps happening, not that any one conversation is in itself appallingly awful.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
I suspect that most of those commenting here have never had a Chihuahua.
posted by grounded at 5:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by grounded at 5:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
I've experienced the pressure, both in a positive and negative sense. After we got married, it was mostly aunts, parents and their friends asking us "when?" all the time.
I'd mostly tell them that, if our relationship remained solid and money was OK, we might think about a second cat.
Then we had our child, and I felt not pressure, but rather this strong, pervasive social support, like society as a whole was happy we'd had a child. Complete strangers would congratulate us on the street for how cute signal jr. was (ok, is), our extended families were ecstatic, etc. I felt this was like a social genetic thing, to reward parents for the sleeplessness and stress that a newborn brings, like everybody patting you on the back and saying 'well done' for helping the human race continue.
After a year or so of that, the same aunts and parents' friends reverted to pressure mode, only now for the second child.
We're seriously considering another cat.
posted by signal at 6:01 AM on September 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
I'd mostly tell them that, if our relationship remained solid and money was OK, we might think about a second cat.
Then we had our child, and I felt not pressure, but rather this strong, pervasive social support, like society as a whole was happy we'd had a child. Complete strangers would congratulate us on the street for how cute signal jr. was (ok, is), our extended families were ecstatic, etc. I felt this was like a social genetic thing, to reward parents for the sleeplessness and stress that a newborn brings, like everybody patting you on the back and saying 'well done' for helping the human race continue.
After a year or so of that, the same aunts and parents' friends reverted to pressure mode, only now for the second child.
We're seriously considering another cat.
posted by signal at 6:01 AM on September 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce--any pressure felt is going to be your own internal voice telling you what to do.
Obviously, you're XY and not XX.
From the moment Maus and I got hitched, I kept getting asked "When are you having kids?" And then when I DID get pregnant 9 months later, I got hollered at that maybe I should have waited. And when Younger Monster came along, I got the cries of "Oh, two boys?? When are you going to try for a girl?"
Elder Monster is 22, Younger Monster is 18, and from time to time, I STILL get asked about "trying for a girl". I'M FORTY-FOUR, FFS!
And now Elder Monster and La Monsterette, who have been together for 7 years and are talking making it all legal-like, are hearing it from friends who have already spawned, and most strongly from her grandmother, who is DEMANDING great-grandchildren.
So, reject the notion all you like, it doesn't change reality. Women being public property, and all.
posted by MissySedai at 6:03 AM on September 24, 2014 [22 favorites]
Obviously, you're XY and not XX.
From the moment Maus and I got hitched, I kept getting asked "When are you having kids?" And then when I DID get pregnant 9 months later, I got hollered at that maybe I should have waited. And when Younger Monster came along, I got the cries of "Oh, two boys?? When are you going to try for a girl?"
Elder Monster is 22, Younger Monster is 18, and from time to time, I STILL get asked about "trying for a girl". I'M FORTY-FOUR, FFS!
And now Elder Monster and La Monsterette, who have been together for 7 years and are talking making it all legal-like, are hearing it from friends who have already spawned, and most strongly from her grandmother, who is DEMANDING great-grandchildren.
So, reject the notion all you like, it doesn't change reality. Women being public property, and all.
posted by MissySedai at 6:03 AM on September 24, 2014 [22 favorites]
I suspect that most of those commenting here have never had a Chihuahua.
There's a reason for that. One of my college roommates had one. And he was cute as hell, but so wee and underfoot all the time, and once I accidentally stepped on him because I couldn't see him.
No way for that to happen with my Pit Bull. She's underfoot all the time, as most of her kind are, but there's no way for me to not see her.
posted by MissySedai at 6:07 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
There's a reason for that. One of my college roommates had one. And he was cute as hell, but so wee and underfoot all the time, and once I accidentally stepped on him because I couldn't see him.
No way for that to happen with my Pit Bull. She's underfoot all the time, as most of her kind are, but there's no way for me to not see her.
posted by MissySedai at 6:07 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I happen to love Idiocracy a lot (not sorry). But even though I generally consider myself to be smarter than most people, I am still not having kids in spite of the message of Idiocracy. I never liked kids even when I was one, and I cannot even fathom why anyone would ever want to have them. But because I am a lady-person and married to a dude, I still get people asking me when (not if, when) I am going to have kids, to which I am always pleased to respond "Never!"
posted by Librarypt at 6:22 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Librarypt at 6:22 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
I've never wanted children. I live in a progressive area of the country, so I think the pressure and expectations to have children are less here than they would be in a more conservative, churchy area of the US. I've still gotten the occasional "You're so smart and creative, you should have children!" "But you'd make a great mom!" (NOT said by anyone who really knows me well, ha!) And the inevitable, "but who will CAAAAARE for you when you are old?" (As if all grown kids were able or willing to care for aging parents!)
I don't think my mom was ever happy being a mother, but that's a whole other can of worms. She did tell me once that she was glad I never reproduced, because that way she could live her own life and not have to babysit grandchildren.
In any event, I always thought that "You'll love a child when it's your own!" to be a risky gamble. What if I didn't? And what if I got a child who had special needs, would always need intensive parenting, and maybe never live independently? There are VERY old people out there who worry about who will care for their sixtysomething child once they are gone. No empty nest for them. On a lesser scale, there are children who just don't mesh well with their parents' expectations or personalities. There are no exchanges or substitutions at the Kiddie Factory. Once you have a child, you have that child - for better or worse.
The issues of elder care are real, and scary, but I don't think having a child is a panacea. And I cannot express how much I hate the idea of breeding your very own indentured servants. That is hardly fair to the child.
What I have given some serious thought to doing is fostering an LGBTQ child or children, someone who has been kicked out of their parents' house for being LGBTQ (so much for unconditional parental love, right?). I could give that child love, security, and encouragement, and an adolescent is already toilet trained, can feed, shower and dress themselves, articulate their needs, and, in general, I find teens to be interesting and fun people. I don't especially like or relate to babies or small kids, but I do like tweens and teens.
I am damn grateful and glad to live in a time and place where my preferred option - to be single and childless - is possible. Thanks to feminism and modern birth control, I don't have to have a child I don't want. I can live single without male protection, or a man to vouch for me everywhere I go. I can own a house and get credit in my own name. This is an option for women that we haven't had in recorded history. I think we are hearing so much about childlessness, and voluntary singlehood, now, because there IS that option.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:23 AM on September 24, 2014 [21 favorites]
I don't think my mom was ever happy being a mother, but that's a whole other can of worms. She did tell me once that she was glad I never reproduced, because that way she could live her own life and not have to babysit grandchildren.
In any event, I always thought that "You'll love a child when it's your own!" to be a risky gamble. What if I didn't? And what if I got a child who had special needs, would always need intensive parenting, and maybe never live independently? There are VERY old people out there who worry about who will care for their sixtysomething child once they are gone. No empty nest for them. On a lesser scale, there are children who just don't mesh well with their parents' expectations or personalities. There are no exchanges or substitutions at the Kiddie Factory. Once you have a child, you have that child - for better or worse.
The issues of elder care are real, and scary, but I don't think having a child is a panacea. And I cannot express how much I hate the idea of breeding your very own indentured servants. That is hardly fair to the child.
What I have given some serious thought to doing is fostering an LGBTQ child or children, someone who has been kicked out of their parents' house for being LGBTQ (so much for unconditional parental love, right?). I could give that child love, security, and encouragement, and an adolescent is already toilet trained, can feed, shower and dress themselves, articulate their needs, and, in general, I find teens to be interesting and fun people. I don't especially like or relate to babies or small kids, but I do like tweens and teens.
I am damn grateful and glad to live in a time and place where my preferred option - to be single and childless - is possible. Thanks to feminism and modern birth control, I don't have to have a child I don't want. I can live single without male protection, or a man to vouch for me everywhere I go. I can own a house and get credit in my own name. This is an option for women that we haven't had in recorded history. I think we are hearing so much about childlessness, and voluntary singlehood, now, because there IS that option.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:23 AM on September 24, 2014 [21 favorites]
Idiocracy is brought up in these threads and on the topic in general because it gives busybodies a way to tell successful, middle-class white people that they are "the kinds of people who SHOULD be having lots of children" without being overtly racist. It doesn't feel like eugenics if you pretend it's about intelligence.
posted by almostmanda at 6:30 AM on September 24, 2014 [23 favorites]
posted by almostmanda at 6:30 AM on September 24, 2014 [23 favorites]
Rosie M. Banks: "And the inevitable, "but who will CAAAAARE for you when you are old?" (As if all grown kids were able or willing to care for aging parents!)"
Agreed, this attitude frankly baffles me. Otherwise perfectly rational adults seem to think that having a kid, raising them over 18-20 years and hopefully not fucking it up is literally the only way to prepare for old age.
I mean, I guess it probably was pre-industrial revolution. But we've accepted atomisation and fragmentation of familial structures at every other age - why do we seem to think, as a society, that having a sprog is still a sure-fire method of ensuring we don't die alone and get eaten by our cats?
As opposed to, say, having a full life, saving money and living off it, moving into a communal living situation/care facility if necessary and eventually popping your clogs when health and circumstances dictate?
Just seems like an odd blind spot to me.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:31 AM on September 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
Agreed, this attitude frankly baffles me. Otherwise perfectly rational adults seem to think that having a kid, raising them over 18-20 years and hopefully not fucking it up is literally the only way to prepare for old age.
I mean, I guess it probably was pre-industrial revolution. But we've accepted atomisation and fragmentation of familial structures at every other age - why do we seem to think, as a society, that having a sprog is still a sure-fire method of ensuring we don't die alone and get eaten by our cats?
As opposed to, say, having a full life, saving money and living off it, moving into a communal living situation/care facility if necessary and eventually popping your clogs when health and circumstances dictate?
Just seems like an odd blind spot to me.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:31 AM on September 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
Oh man, the pressure to reproduce from family is awful. For me, it came from my mother-in-law, before we were even living together. She once had a neighbor (whom I'd never met before) accost me at a Thanksgiving dinner to grill me about why we weren't having kids yet, eight months into our marriage, at age 26. This, despite the fact that my mother-in-law was not a mother until she was 32 and my mother 30. When we made the decision to start trying, I actually said to my husband, "But your mother will think she's won." It was really, really hard to give her that satisfaction.
My mother said something once--"You're a creative person. It's sort of a creative act. I think you'd like having kids." If you're going to pressure someone, it's nice to actually pay attention to the person they actual are, I guess. But my mom knows me pretty well.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:34 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
My mother said something once--"You're a creative person. It's sort of a creative act. I think you'd like having kids." If you're going to pressure someone, it's nice to actually pay attention to the person they actual are, I guess. But my mom knows me pretty well.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:34 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
I know the topic of people who choose not to parent has come up a lot lately, but I really, really appreciate it. I have been in a wonderful relationship for nearly 7 years. When we met, he wanted to have kids. I had decided years before that pregnancy/passing on my genes was not for me. I have given him lots of outs over the years, as this comes up a lot more often than I would like.
This pressure to have children is pretty much the only thing I thought could break us up. People (maybe not you, ok, but lots of people) are so adamant that it is necessary, that I have often felt that it would suddenly become necessary for him and he would throw away the life we're building for one with babies in it. These articles help me know I am not alone and I'm not such a weirdo. It's nice to see other people make the choice and for ours to be just another normal path.
I know it is not a small thing that he has given up for me. It's a really big deal to know that people (besides me) can be happy and satisfied in their lives without children.
posted by MsDaniB at 6:45 AM on September 24, 2014 [14 favorites]
This pressure to have children is pretty much the only thing I thought could break us up. People (maybe not you, ok, but lots of people) are so adamant that it is necessary, that I have often felt that it would suddenly become necessary for him and he would throw away the life we're building for one with babies in it. These articles help me know I am not alone and I'm not such a weirdo. It's nice to see other people make the choice and for ours to be just another normal path.
I know it is not a small thing that he has given up for me. It's a really big deal to know that people (besides me) can be happy and satisfied in their lives without children.
posted by MsDaniB at 6:45 AM on September 24, 2014 [14 favorites]
This didn't happen magically; it happened because people *wrote and talked about childlessness as an option*.
This. This this this this this.
I live in a neighborhood where girls get pregnant in their late teens, and that's just the way it is. I have a Girl Scout troop there, and all but maybe two or three of the moms are my age or younger. It's just the way it is, there aren't a whole lot of people who aren't on the young parent path. A few weeks ago when school was back in session, I walked the half mile to my train past house after house after house of girls in school uniform polos bouncing infants on their knees and then handing them off to their moms so they could go to school.
I am a very, very visible minority being an unmarried and childless woman in her late 20s. My scouts ask me about it a lot. "Are you married?" "Why not?" "Why isn't your daughter in girl scouts?" "Wait why don't you have a daughter?" "Why don't you have kids?" And I get to be there, and even if I'm one tiny voice, and even if it isn't a life that they want (plenty of the young moms I know absolutely love their life! it's just not the life I want) I can be there as a visible, living example of "look, you have choices, you have options."
It's one thing to say to a kid they can grow up to do anything. It's another to make that kid believe that it's possible for them, too.
posted by phunniemee at 6:49 AM on September 24, 2014 [29 favorites]
This. This this this this this.
I live in a neighborhood where girls get pregnant in their late teens, and that's just the way it is. I have a Girl Scout troop there, and all but maybe two or three of the moms are my age or younger. It's just the way it is, there aren't a whole lot of people who aren't on the young parent path. A few weeks ago when school was back in session, I walked the half mile to my train past house after house after house of girls in school uniform polos bouncing infants on their knees and then handing them off to their moms so they could go to school.
I am a very, very visible minority being an unmarried and childless woman in her late 20s. My scouts ask me about it a lot. "Are you married?" "Why not?" "Why isn't your daughter in girl scouts?" "Wait why don't you have a daughter?" "Why don't you have kids?" And I get to be there, and even if I'm one tiny voice, and even if it isn't a life that they want (plenty of the young moms I know absolutely love their life! it's just not the life I want) I can be there as a visible, living example of "look, you have choices, you have options."
It's one thing to say to a kid they can grow up to do anything. It's another to make that kid believe that it's possible for them, too.
posted by phunniemee at 6:49 AM on September 24, 2014 [29 favorites]
It doesn't feel like eugenics if you pretend it's about intelligence.
I'm having trouble finding it, there was an article recently on a very large genetic survey/sequencing survey that was hoping to find a genetic basis for differences in intelligence. They found two genes that had 1/100th the impact on intelligence as 'genes for height' had on height. Inconclusive, maybe there are magic genes that can give someone 40+ IQ points. Or maybe its a series of epigenetic effects. Or maybe its just getting the brain to latch onto something interesting. Or maybe...
The point being that links between intelligence and genetics didn't seem to be very obvious and that perhaps we're able to effectively counter that meme.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm having trouble finding it, there was an article recently on a very large genetic survey/sequencing survey that was hoping to find a genetic basis for differences in intelligence. They found two genes that had 1/100th the impact on intelligence as 'genes for height' had on height. Inconclusive, maybe there are magic genes that can give someone 40+ IQ points. Or maybe its a series of epigenetic effects. Or maybe its just getting the brain to latch onto something interesting. Or maybe...
The point being that links between intelligence and genetics didn't seem to be very obvious and that perhaps we're able to effectively counter that meme.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've had pressure from family and co-workers to reproduce. I've heard the "it's different when they are yours" and "I really want grandchildren."
I responded to the last statement by informing my father that it wasn't too late for him to start over, if grandchildren were that important to him. We have 9 nieces and nephews (half-siblings), and I love being an aunt, but I do not need or want to be a mother.
I've had co-workers and boss' give me the cold shoulder because they thought there was simply Something Wrong with me if I didn't want children. The pressure is definitely there.
posted by needlegrrl at 6:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I responded to the last statement by informing my father that it wasn't too late for him to start over, if grandchildren were that important to him. We have 9 nieces and nephews (half-siblings), and I love being an aunt, but I do not need or want to be a mother.
I've had co-workers and boss' give me the cold shoulder because they thought there was simply Something Wrong with me if I didn't want children. The pressure is definitely there.
posted by needlegrrl at 6:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, big shout out to my mom, who was so clearly miserable when we were kids, for never pressuring us to follow the same path. Also to latter-day Dad, who calmly stated a couple years ago that having children brought him the most pain and joy of anything in his life and taught him to love more deeply than he could have dreamed. And then he never mentioned it again.
posted by MsDaniB at 6:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by MsDaniB at 6:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce--any pressure felt is going to be your own internal voice telling you what to do.
Speaking as someone who agrees with you that a lot of this discussion ends up being "whiny," nonetheless I think you're missing the point. People's internal voices are influenced, and indeed created, by external factors. There isn't some bright line separating the two.
I'm sympathetic to the eye rolling because I'm a person who truly doesn't give a fuck what other people think about my personal choices. But if you're someone like that, you have to recognize that many other people aren't. No matter how many times you tell them, "Don't worry about what others think," it ain't gonna happen. They aren't wired that way. Whatever the quality is—confidence, independence, apathy—it's not something everybody has in sufficient dose. And for those people, the cultural pressure to marry and procreate behind a white picket fence is sometimes going to cause stress.
We can roll our eyes at that, or we can try to understand that cultural pressures exist (duh) and people will respond to them differently. Just from a selfish perspective, the former is quicker but the latter can broaden our understanding of the world, which is a recipe for all kinds of successes.
posted by cribcage at 6:59 AM on September 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
Speaking as someone who agrees with you that a lot of this discussion ends up being "whiny," nonetheless I think you're missing the point. People's internal voices are influenced, and indeed created, by external factors. There isn't some bright line separating the two.
I'm sympathetic to the eye rolling because I'm a person who truly doesn't give a fuck what other people think about my personal choices. But if you're someone like that, you have to recognize that many other people aren't. No matter how many times you tell them, "Don't worry about what others think," it ain't gonna happen. They aren't wired that way. Whatever the quality is—confidence, independence, apathy—it's not something everybody has in sufficient dose. And for those people, the cultural pressure to marry and procreate behind a white picket fence is sometimes going to cause stress.
We can roll our eyes at that, or we can try to understand that cultural pressures exist (duh) and people will respond to them differently. Just from a selfish perspective, the former is quicker but the latter can broaden our understanding of the world, which is a recipe for all kinds of successes.
posted by cribcage at 6:59 AM on September 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
i'd wager that people who think there is no external pressure are people who didn't grow up in the mormon church. from the time i was 3 i was trained to think of myself as a baby making factory. when i was 24, unmarried and without offspring, i was treated as old maid. when i got married in my late 20s my family reacted with a "FINALLY" and the baby talk intensified. i have had many sit down, difficult conversations with family where i laid out all my reasons for not having kids. i still get pointed looks when my grandmother starts assessing her self-worth based up on how many grandkids and great-grandkids she has. my family never tells me that they are proud of the life i've built while heaping praise on my cousins who have 5 kids before they turn 27. it's lonely and shitty, but it's still better for me than having a kid.
posted by nadawi at 7:02 AM on September 24, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:02 AM on September 24, 2014 [12 favorites]
also for those who are so bored by these conversations, so annoyed with how "whiny" we are, no one is forcing you to read or to comment. there are a lot of threads here and you don't have to jam your two cents into all of them.
posted by nadawi at 7:04 AM on September 24, 2014 [29 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:04 AM on September 24, 2014 [29 favorites]
I love the people who come into a thread where the topic is literally "People in my life care way to much about my personal choices" and roll their eyes and call you whiny and yell NOBODY CARES.
It's not just dismissive. It's factually incorrect. Too many people care. That is literally the problem.
posted by almostmanda at 7:07 AM on September 24, 2014 [34 favorites]
It's not just dismissive. It's factually incorrect. Too many people care. That is literally the problem.
posted by almostmanda at 7:07 AM on September 24, 2014 [34 favorites]
The comments positing that there is not really such a thing as external pressure to reproduce are mind-boggling to me, especially considering the fact that basic reproductive health services in the U.S. -- Hobby Lobby, anyone? -- are being stripped away by legislators at the state and federal level at a breakneck pace. Since men are largely spared from the onslaught, they can afford to shrug it off with blithe nonsense like, "Duh, sheeple, you don't need to care what other people think!" If only it were that easy.
People ask me when I'm going to have children all the damn time, and it's only gotten worse as I've gotten older and more settled down. They panic on my behalf: "You don't have much time!" Yeah, dude, I know, it's awesome! I'm going to have a giant party as soon as I can be sure that my body utterly lacks the capacity to get knocked up! But I still can't even find an ob/gyn who doesn't try to pressure me into an IUD -- "in case you change your mind" -- when I issue my annual request for a tubal ligation.
Answering a query regarding when (never if, only when) I'm going to have children with, "Never, I hope," the immediate response is always "Aw, why not?" For some reason, my excruciatingly sincere response of, "Because I don't want them" does nothing but encourage more questioning. The overwhelming majority of people literally cannot imagine actively not wanting children -- which, OK, sure, it's the strongest biological imperative there is, so to them, I guess it sounds like I'm saying I don't want to eat or sleep. But I've been more certain about not wanting to have children than any other aspect of my existence since I was a child myself. I don't want to give birth and I don't want to adopt. I don't even want to babysit. There is no truth I know more deeply. And yet! Depending on the company, I'll usually get at least one "But you would be a great mom," which is such a bald-faced lie that I feel like its deployment must be purely instinctive. I would not be a great mom. I would be a terrible mom. That's why I don't want children.
I come from a very long line of women who did not like children and did not want to be mothers but spawned anyway because That's What You Do. The end result has been a family tree teeming with humans who have been absolutely crippled by substance abuse and mental illness, more than a few of whom have gone on to kill themselves. Why on earth would I want to perpetuate this miserable set of genetics, especially when I don't even want to have children in the first place? By not reproducing, I can be sure that this line of suffering ends with me. I get to wake up every day knowing that, and it feels so damn fine. But no one wants to hear that shit when they tell you that you should have children even though you don't want them. They're not even really telling you that you should have children, exactly; it's more like they're just letting you know you're abnormal, and that your abnormality makes them uncomfortable, like the entire world around me doesn't already tell me that every day, like I don't already know that tons of people consider me to be a failed/defective woman because I've never had any kind of maternal or nurturing tendencies whatsofuckingever.
Dating as a childfree woman is awful, too, especially because I'm at that age (32) where many men either already have kids or are keeping their eye out for someone to impregnate. I think I'm just going to step out of the dating pool entirely until I hit menopause, because if I had a nickle for every time an otherwise perfectly dateable dude asked me when I'll be ready to pop out my first spawnlet before launching into his plans to create a whole brood of them... well, I'd have a shitload of nickles.
posted by divined by radio at 7:13 AM on September 24, 2014 [42 favorites]
People ask me when I'm going to have children all the damn time, and it's only gotten worse as I've gotten older and more settled down. They panic on my behalf: "You don't have much time!" Yeah, dude, I know, it's awesome! I'm going to have a giant party as soon as I can be sure that my body utterly lacks the capacity to get knocked up! But I still can't even find an ob/gyn who doesn't try to pressure me into an IUD -- "in case you change your mind" -- when I issue my annual request for a tubal ligation.
Answering a query regarding when (never if, only when) I'm going to have children with, "Never, I hope," the immediate response is always "Aw, why not?" For some reason, my excruciatingly sincere response of, "Because I don't want them" does nothing but encourage more questioning. The overwhelming majority of people literally cannot imagine actively not wanting children -- which, OK, sure, it's the strongest biological imperative there is, so to them, I guess it sounds like I'm saying I don't want to eat or sleep. But I've been more certain about not wanting to have children than any other aspect of my existence since I was a child myself. I don't want to give birth and I don't want to adopt. I don't even want to babysit. There is no truth I know more deeply. And yet! Depending on the company, I'll usually get at least one "But you would be a great mom," which is such a bald-faced lie that I feel like its deployment must be purely instinctive. I would not be a great mom. I would be a terrible mom. That's why I don't want children.
I come from a very long line of women who did not like children and did not want to be mothers but spawned anyway because That's What You Do. The end result has been a family tree teeming with humans who have been absolutely crippled by substance abuse and mental illness, more than a few of whom have gone on to kill themselves. Why on earth would I want to perpetuate this miserable set of genetics, especially when I don't even want to have children in the first place? By not reproducing, I can be sure that this line of suffering ends with me. I get to wake up every day knowing that, and it feels so damn fine. But no one wants to hear that shit when they tell you that you should have children even though you don't want them. They're not even really telling you that you should have children, exactly; it's more like they're just letting you know you're abnormal, and that your abnormality makes them uncomfortable, like the entire world around me doesn't already tell me that every day, like I don't already know that tons of people consider me to be a failed/defective woman because I've never had any kind of maternal or nurturing tendencies whatsofuckingever.
Dating as a childfree woman is awful, too, especially because I'm at that age (32) where many men either already have kids or are keeping their eye out for someone to impregnate. I think I'm just going to step out of the dating pool entirely until I hit menopause, because if I had a nickle for every time an otherwise perfectly dateable dude asked me when I'll be ready to pop out my first spawnlet before launching into his plans to create a whole brood of them... well, I'd have a shitload of nickles.
posted by divined by radio at 7:13 AM on September 24, 2014 [42 favorites]
"When are you going to have kids?" though. The majority of people have kids, for whatever reason (or by accident, with no reasoning involved). It's the default position and that's why the assumption is made.
Same as when we'd ask our friends, back in high school when we were all seniors, "So, where are you going to schooll?" meaning, of couse, what college. We didn't ask if. We all had roughly the same expectation, so we assumed.
A lot of people stop making these assumptions when we learn that they're hurtful. Like, a lot of well-meaning people have learned to stop asking people when they're going to meet a nice opposite sex person, assuming straightness, or I how I had to realize once I moved out of the bible belt that "what church do you go to" was assuming christianity and not ok. These strong assumptions about what's normal--to have kids/be straight/go to church/go to college--are not separate from the pressure to do these things, they're an integral part of it.
posted by Mavri at 7:14 AM on September 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
Same as when we'd ask our friends, back in high school when we were all seniors, "So, where are you going to schooll?" meaning, of couse, what college. We didn't ask if. We all had roughly the same expectation, so we assumed.
A lot of people stop making these assumptions when we learn that they're hurtful. Like, a lot of well-meaning people have learned to stop asking people when they're going to meet a nice opposite sex person, assuming straightness, or I how I had to realize once I moved out of the bible belt that "what church do you go to" was assuming christianity and not ok. These strong assumptions about what's normal--to have kids/be straight/go to church/go to college--are not separate from the pressure to do these things, they're an integral part of it.
posted by Mavri at 7:14 AM on September 24, 2014 [17 favorites]
passive aggressive and annoying
No; this comes up in thread after thread on this topic. Corroborating anecdotes from women and men are plentiful in each of those threads--which I know you have seen. So your rejection of the experience of others seems disingenuous to me, at best.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 7:15 AM on September 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
No; this comes up in thread after thread on this topic. Corroborating anecdotes from women and men are plentiful in each of those threads--which I know you have seen. So your rejection of the experience of others seems disingenuous to me, at best.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 7:15 AM on September 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
I have really strong feelings about this that I keep private because I've been told that it is rude to actually say this: having biological children is selfish. There are so many children - so many children - who do not have parents for one reason or another. I feel like making a baby that looks like me is incredibly selfish in the world in which we live.
If I were ever to have a kid, I'd adopt. But lately I've been thinking that even that is selfish. What if I poured all the resources that I would be putting into one kid into orphanages and adoption agencies? Wouldn't that help a whole ton of children, rather than just one?
I'm starting to think that that is what I am going to do: devote the time and energy that I would have devoted to one or two kids and give it to a whole slew of them. It seems like the most moral decision.
Sure, I think I would be a good mom. And I have health issues that would become very problematic with pregnancy. I've known since I was 15 or so that I didn't want to give birth. And I use my medical issues as a cop-out, so I don't have to talk about it much, because arguing with people and telling them that their choices seem wrong and immoral is rude and not something I am comfortable with doing face-to-face. But this is the Internet, so I can say it: having biological kids is selfish.
posted by sockermom at 7:24 AM on September 24, 2014 [15 favorites]
If I were ever to have a kid, I'd adopt. But lately I've been thinking that even that is selfish. What if I poured all the resources that I would be putting into one kid into orphanages and adoption agencies? Wouldn't that help a whole ton of children, rather than just one?
I'm starting to think that that is what I am going to do: devote the time and energy that I would have devoted to one or two kids and give it to a whole slew of them. It seems like the most moral decision.
Sure, I think I would be a good mom. And I have health issues that would become very problematic with pregnancy. I've known since I was 15 or so that I didn't want to give birth. And I use my medical issues as a cop-out, so I don't have to talk about it much, because arguing with people and telling them that their choices seem wrong and immoral is rude and not something I am comfortable with doing face-to-face. But this is the Internet, so I can say it: having biological kids is selfish.
posted by sockermom at 7:24 AM on September 24, 2014 [15 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed; please let's not do the "this is my made up version of what a racist would say" thing, it basically never improves a conversation here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:30 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:30 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also, for God's sake, let's get the Earth's population down to a nice, manageable 2 billion or so. Let's save the next population explosion for when we can move off-planet and terraform some other worlds.
It's funny how monstrous that idea seems to some, as if you've just proposed genocide by having fewer kids. All those poor souls, trapped in some sort of pre-birth Heavenly waiting room, denied a body because you wanted to be an artist or a writer with three dogs.
posted by ELF Radio at 7:30 AM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
It's funny how monstrous that idea seems to some, as if you've just proposed genocide by having fewer kids. All those poor souls, trapped in some sort of pre-birth Heavenly waiting room, denied a body because you wanted to be an artist or a writer with three dogs.
posted by ELF Radio at 7:30 AM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
It's funny how monstrous that idea seems to some
Well if we all stop having kids then the only people left having kids will be the others and then at some point due to how numbers work the scales would tip and we would become the others and god how horrifying.
posted by phunniemee at 7:33 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
Well if we all stop having kids then the only people left having kids will be the others and then at some point due to how numbers work the scales would tip and we would become the others and god how horrifying.
posted by phunniemee at 7:33 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
cortex,
If I had the time, I'd hunt down the actual quotes that inspired that rant. They exist and are horrifying, and often used to condemn anyone not living a straight suburban life. Sorry if I offended.
posted by ELF Radio at 7:35 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
If I had the time, I'd hunt down the actual quotes that inspired that rant. They exist and are horrifying, and often used to condemn anyone not living a straight suburban life. Sorry if I offended.
posted by ELF Radio at 7:35 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
What I have given some serious thought to doing is fostering an LGBTQ child or children, someone who has been kicked out of their parents' house for being LGBTQ (so much for unconditional parental love, right?). I could give that child love, security, and encouragement, and an adolescent is already toilet trained, can feed, shower and dress themselves, articulate their needs, and, in general, I find teens to be interesting and fun people.
I hope you do this. I really, genuinely hope you do. Teenagers ARE interesting and often hilarious, and so many of them need good, loving homes with people who accept them for who they are.
Being a teen is hard to begin with. Being a teen whose own parents have kicked them to the curb is DEVASTATING.
posted by MissySedai at 7:37 AM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
I hope you do this. I really, genuinely hope you do. Teenagers ARE interesting and often hilarious, and so many of them need good, loving homes with people who accept them for who they are.
Being a teen is hard to begin with. Being a teen whose own parents have kicked them to the curb is DEVASTATING.
posted by MissySedai at 7:37 AM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
Well if we all stop having kids then the only people left having kids will be the others and then at some point due to how numbers work the scales would tip and we would become the others and god how horrifying.
That would require some serious quarantine of the kids from any knowledge of modern anything. Its not something that I feel is overly likely.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:41 AM on September 24, 2014
That would require some serious quarantine of the kids from any knowledge of modern anything. Its not something that I feel is overly likely.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:41 AM on September 24, 2014
Just about everything that I would want to say on this topic has been articulated by others. But I just wanted to add that it is also super fun to be childfree in an interracial marriage, because on top of the "you're so smart"/"you'd be such a good mom" pseudo-compliments, I also get lots of of comments to the effect of how our "chocolate-vanilla swirl babies would be SO CUTE"
GAH.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:11 AM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
GAH.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:11 AM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
I always thought that I'd adopt, too, because I've never felt like having biological offspring is important enough to me to outweigh concerns about contributing to overpopulation, the extra resources my child would inevitably demand of the world. And hey, bonus - no pregnancy! But it turns out that adoption is super difficult and expensive and unlikely and comes with its own set of ethical issues. I'm also not really sure I have the emotional stamina for foster parenting.
The thing that's weirdest for me about Other People's Opinions on my reproductive status is how it was basically like a switch was flipped. Went straight from "oh, definitely don't get pregnant now whatever you do, it will ruin your life!" to "Babby? Babby yet? I can has niece/nephew? WHERE BABBY??!" You'd think there'd be some kind of intervening period where a baby would be neither socially ruinous nor imperative.
posted by lwb at 8:12 AM on September 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
The thing that's weirdest for me about Other People's Opinions on my reproductive status is how it was basically like a switch was flipped. Went straight from "oh, definitely don't get pregnant now whatever you do, it will ruin your life!" to "Babby? Babby yet? I can has niece/nephew? WHERE BABBY??!" You'd think there'd be some kind of intervening period where a baby would be neither socially ruinous nor imperative.
posted by lwb at 8:12 AM on September 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
It's not that her decision is all that uncommon or outspoken, but that she laid out her thinking well enough
What I really liked about this article (and the reason I posted it even though I usually hate the parenting-vs-childfree debate) was that it was about the indecision, and not a straightforward "why I'm not having children" piece. Most of what I hear and read about people's individual decisions - regardless of what they decide - is usually along the lines of "I've always known this was what I wanted." I've seen advice on AskMe to the effect of "do NOT have children unless you are absolutely 110% sure you want them," and while I don't exactly disagree with that, it just adds a layer of pressure if you're, say, 80% sure. When you're genuinely undecided, or even most of the way to a final decision but not quite ready to shut the other door, the stories of complete certainty don't help that much.
I agree with StrikeTheViol's assessment upthread that ambivalence doesn't accurately describe Harding's feelings; rather, she was most of the way to a decision, with just enough doubt to keep her from finalizing it. I was really truly ambivalent, feeling a pull in both directions, and a lot of my thoughts were similar to Harding's. Yet instead of choosing the childfree route, I'm currently typing this one-handed while carrying a farting infant.
I had many solid reasons not to have a kid: the time and money investment, the family history of depression and anxiety I'd rather not pass along, the possibility that my own depression and anxiety would interfere with my ability to parent, the potential derailment of my career, my doubts about bringing another life into the world with things as they are, the fact that the world doesn't need any more humans, and the fear of making the wrong choice and ending up hating parenthood. I can't come up with as many compelling arguments in favor of having children, other than really wanting them. I knew I'd be happy with a child, but was I absolutely 110% sure I wanted one?
But, for me, there was also the fear of missing out. If you're certain you don't want children, this isn't a fear: you don't miss what you don't want. When you're undecided, you can stand at that fork indefinitely, terrified of taking the wrong path. I knew that "what if I'd had children?" would gnaw at me much more than "what if I hadn't had children?" That isn't what pushed me over into the decision, but it was part of it.
All of this is long-winded and sounds sort of feeble and foolish now that I write it out. It won't persuade anyone who doesn't want children, and it's not meant to, because I believe both options are good ones and should be respected. I guess my point is that it's a highly personal decision that involves both logic and emotions that can be difficult to quantify or articulate. I wonder if Harding was closer to the middle than her article lets on, if she felt a real pull in the direction of parenting rather than just a push against not parenting, though I take her at her word.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:16 AM on September 24, 2014 [18 favorites]
What I really liked about this article (and the reason I posted it even though I usually hate the parenting-vs-childfree debate) was that it was about the indecision, and not a straightforward "why I'm not having children" piece. Most of what I hear and read about people's individual decisions - regardless of what they decide - is usually along the lines of "I've always known this was what I wanted." I've seen advice on AskMe to the effect of "do NOT have children unless you are absolutely 110% sure you want them," and while I don't exactly disagree with that, it just adds a layer of pressure if you're, say, 80% sure. When you're genuinely undecided, or even most of the way to a final decision but not quite ready to shut the other door, the stories of complete certainty don't help that much.
I agree with StrikeTheViol's assessment upthread that ambivalence doesn't accurately describe Harding's feelings; rather, she was most of the way to a decision, with just enough doubt to keep her from finalizing it. I was really truly ambivalent, feeling a pull in both directions, and a lot of my thoughts were similar to Harding's. Yet instead of choosing the childfree route, I'm currently typing this one-handed while carrying a farting infant.
I had many solid reasons not to have a kid: the time and money investment, the family history of depression and anxiety I'd rather not pass along, the possibility that my own depression and anxiety would interfere with my ability to parent, the potential derailment of my career, my doubts about bringing another life into the world with things as they are, the fact that the world doesn't need any more humans, and the fear of making the wrong choice and ending up hating parenthood. I can't come up with as many compelling arguments in favor of having children, other than really wanting them. I knew I'd be happy with a child, but was I absolutely 110% sure I wanted one?
But, for me, there was also the fear of missing out. If you're certain you don't want children, this isn't a fear: you don't miss what you don't want. When you're undecided, you can stand at that fork indefinitely, terrified of taking the wrong path. I knew that "what if I'd had children?" would gnaw at me much more than "what if I hadn't had children?" That isn't what pushed me over into the decision, but it was part of it.
All of this is long-winded and sounds sort of feeble and foolish now that I write it out. It won't persuade anyone who doesn't want children, and it's not meant to, because I believe both options are good ones and should be respected. I guess my point is that it's a highly personal decision that involves both logic and emotions that can be difficult to quantify or articulate. I wonder if Harding was closer to the middle than her article lets on, if she felt a real pull in the direction of parenting rather than just a push against not parenting, though I take her at her word.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:16 AM on September 24, 2014 [18 favorites]
Since men are largely spared from the onslaught
Except we're not because I have a wife and two daughters and a sister and two sisters-in-law and two ex-sisters-in-law-who-are-still-family and two nieces all of whom have reproductive organs on the inside of their bodies and their collective health is an issue with which I am concerned etc.
posted by disconnect at 8:21 AM on September 24, 2014
Except we're not because I have a wife and two daughters and a sister and two sisters-in-law and two ex-sisters-in-law-who-are-still-family and two nieces all of whom have reproductive organs on the inside of their bodies and their collective health is an issue with which I am concerned etc.
posted by disconnect at 8:21 AM on September 24, 2014
Without wishing to berate others about their own life experiences I have to say that all you childless people are getting it completely wrong.
When they ask "do you want kids?" and look disappointed when you say no it's because they really mean "do you want MY kids?". They're trying to give them away.
posted by fullerine at 8:29 AM on September 24, 2014 [23 favorites]
When they ask "do you want kids?" and look disappointed when you say no it's because they really mean "do you want MY kids?". They're trying to give them away.
posted by fullerine at 8:29 AM on September 24, 2014 [23 favorites]
I was talking with some people recently: one is a parent, and one would like to be but her husband isn't ready to take the plunge yet. The parent told the non-parent that she should give her husband an ultimatum, and actually used the argument, "What else are you going to do with your life, sit around and watch Netflix?" This person knows I don't have kids by choice. She's educated and (supposedly) a feminist, but in one sentence she managed to negate any contribution people without kids might make to society.
What's more insulting to me than the notion that I don't know my own mind or I'm missing out, is the idea that a woman's only valuable contribution to the world is offspring. This pervasive idea has actually made me double down on my decision to not have kids because dammit, I am one hell of a lot more than my ability to procreate. I do stuff, I make stuff, I love my family and friends, I help them when they need it, I work hard, and I cheerfully pay taxes and school levies.
This acquaintance of mine is vocal about how proud she is of her employment choices that allow her put her kids first. It makes me wonder how many of her coworkers without kids end up working longer hours as a result. They say it takes a village...
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:41 AM on September 24, 2014 [19 favorites]
What's more insulting to me than the notion that I don't know my own mind or I'm missing out, is the idea that a woman's only valuable contribution to the world is offspring. This pervasive idea has actually made me double down on my decision to not have kids because dammit, I am one hell of a lot more than my ability to procreate. I do stuff, I make stuff, I love my family and friends, I help them when they need it, I work hard, and I cheerfully pay taxes and school levies.
This acquaintance of mine is vocal about how proud she is of her employment choices that allow her put her kids first. It makes me wonder how many of her coworkers without kids end up working longer hours as a result. They say it takes a village...
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:41 AM on September 24, 2014 [19 favorites]
We ended up in the odd situation of having siblings who also procreated (and had more than one, unlike us) but almost none of our friends have. And they really shouldn't, a lot of them are messed-up enough that it's a bad idea. One or two would probably be good parents and I sometimes wonder if they are happy without a kid.
But I would never corner them and demand they justify that choice to me. I mean, if they brought it up, we could talk about it, but why would I think it's something I need to have an opinion on?
As for parents/in-laws pressuring couples, that's even worse. You are supposed to turn your kids loose at adulthood and let them make choices. They deserve at least as much consideration as your friends.
Basically, people need to have some damn manners about other people deciding whether to reproduce. It's not that hard, honestly.
posted by emjaybee at 8:43 AM on September 24, 2014
But I would never corner them and demand they justify that choice to me. I mean, if they brought it up, we could talk about it, but why would I think it's something I need to have an opinion on?
As for parents/in-laws pressuring couples, that's even worse. You are supposed to turn your kids loose at adulthood and let them make choices. They deserve at least as much consideration as your friends.
Basically, people need to have some damn manners about other people deciding whether to reproduce. It's not that hard, honestly.
posted by emjaybee at 8:43 AM on September 24, 2014
I also get lots of of comments to the effect of how our "chocolate-vanilla swirl babies would be SO CUTE"
I'm a half black/half Indian woman in a relationship with a white man. People have approached us in fits of rapturous longing at the idea that we might already have a little mixed-race baby tucked away somewhere that they could then take a moment to imagine. Inside, I'm like yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhh! our babies would be so. fucking. cute! But I'm afraid I always just shrug ambivalently to punish them for their inappropriate behaviour.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 8:45 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
I'm a half black/half Indian woman in a relationship with a white man. People have approached us in fits of rapturous longing at the idea that we might already have a little mixed-race baby tucked away somewhere that they could then take a moment to imagine. Inside, I'm like yeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhh! our babies would be so. fucking. cute! But I'm afraid I always just shrug ambivalently to punish them for their inappropriate behaviour.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 8:45 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce...
This has been addressed over and over, but at the risk of piling on, that's just super wrong. The worst part is that most of the time, as many here have expressed, the pressure is not coming from well-meaning strangers or a vague social-normative abstraction; it's coming from parents and close relatives. You know, the people you least want to disappoint, the voices that can least be ignored. We inhabit webs of relationships that are not that easy to shrug out of, sorry if that sounds victim-y.
I had a serious decade-long relationship during my prime baby-making years with a guy who was an only child. My uterus was the only avenue for his parents to become grandparents, which was their most ardent dream. They tried to be kind about my decision not to give them what they wanted most in life, but their sorrow was evident. When you're crushing someone's dreams, I think it's only natural to feel like you have to justify yourself.
posted by Freyja at 8:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
This has been addressed over and over, but at the risk of piling on, that's just super wrong. The worst part is that most of the time, as many here have expressed, the pressure is not coming from well-meaning strangers or a vague social-normative abstraction; it's coming from parents and close relatives. You know, the people you least want to disappoint, the voices that can least be ignored. We inhabit webs of relationships that are not that easy to shrug out of, sorry if that sounds victim-y.
I had a serious decade-long relationship during my prime baby-making years with a guy who was an only child. My uterus was the only avenue for his parents to become grandparents, which was their most ardent dream. They tried to be kind about my decision not to give them what they wanted most in life, but their sorrow was evident. When you're crushing someone's dreams, I think it's only natural to feel like you have to justify yourself.
posted by Freyja at 8:50 AM on September 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
I also get lots of of comments to the effect of how our "chocolate-vanilla swirl babies would be SO CUTE"
OMFG.
But I'm afraid I always just shrug ambivalently to punish them for their inappropriate behaviour.
That's way kinder than they deserve.
Basically, people need to have some damn manners about other people deciding whether to reproduce. It's not that hard, honestly.
Exactly so! I don't find the question of "Do you have kids?" particularly inappropriate - it's just small talk, looking for common ground. But questions of "When are you going to?" or "Why not?" or any other follow up to an answer in the negative is just rude as hell.
posted by MissySedai at 8:51 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
OMFG.
But I'm afraid I always just shrug ambivalently to punish them for their inappropriate behaviour.
That's way kinder than they deserve.
Basically, people need to have some damn manners about other people deciding whether to reproduce. It's not that hard, honestly.
Exactly so! I don't find the question of "Do you have kids?" particularly inappropriate - it's just small talk, looking for common ground. But questions of "When are you going to?" or "Why not?" or any other follow up to an answer in the negative is just rude as hell.
posted by MissySedai at 8:51 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I really appreciate these childfree/childless/anti-child discussions. One of my daughters has proclaimed that she doesn't want to have kids. She's 7; I keep telling her (a) she never has to have children if she doesn't want, but (b) she can if she ever decides she wants to. So all this demonstration that "no child" is truly a viable option is a net help.
My grandmother was so goddamned pushy for kids, it really damaged our relationship, and I'm a guy who actually wanted kids so much that Wifey and I went through 5 years of fertility treatments. So yeah, guys also get quizzed relentlessly about their reproductive choices.
posted by disconnect at 8:53 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
My grandmother was so goddamned pushy for kids, it really damaged our relationship, and I'm a guy who actually wanted kids so much that Wifey and I went through 5 years of fertility treatments. So yeah, guys also get quizzed relentlessly about their reproductive choices.
posted by disconnect at 8:53 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
When you're crushing someone's dreams, I think it's only natural to feel like you have to justify yourself.
OK, the thing I find most grating about the New Yorker article is also encapsulated in this sentence. Why are *YOU* crushing anyone's dreams? Your partner, if he or she had wanted children, was an adult and perfectly free to leave the relationship for one which would have produced kids. Meaghan Daum's husband, if he so desperately wants to become a parent, CAN DO SO, just not with her. He is making a choice and it has tradeoffs. But no, not only all of society, but also Daum herself, feel it is HER job to prevent him from feeling any consequences.
GAH.
posted by like_a_friend at 8:54 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
OK, the thing I find most grating about the New Yorker article is also encapsulated in this sentence. Why are *YOU* crushing anyone's dreams? Your partner, if he or she had wanted children, was an adult and perfectly free to leave the relationship for one which would have produced kids. Meaghan Daum's husband, if he so desperately wants to become a parent, CAN DO SO, just not with her. He is making a choice and it has tradeoffs. But no, not only all of society, but also Daum herself, feel it is HER job to prevent him from feeling any consequences.
GAH.
posted by like_a_friend at 8:54 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
When you're crushing someone's dreams, I think it's only natural to feel like you have to justify yourself.
Someone expecting you to take on the risks and strains of pregnancy to fulfill THEIR dreams? Is an asshole. A rude, entitled asshole, and you don't need to justify your choice to not sacrifice your bodily autonomy to their dreams.
posted by MissySedai at 8:55 AM on September 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
Someone expecting you to take on the risks and strains of pregnancy to fulfill THEIR dreams? Is an asshole. A rude, entitled asshole, and you don't need to justify your choice to not sacrifice your bodily autonomy to their dreams.
posted by MissySedai at 8:55 AM on September 24, 2014 [16 favorites]
This acquaintance of mine is vocal about how proud she is of her employment choices that allow her put her kids first. It makes me wonder how many of her coworkers without kids end up working longer hours as a result.
I'm pretty pleased that my employment choices allow me to put my family first. But then, I'm self-employed, and have been for years. No one else is responsible for my work, I either do it or lose the contract. I just have the flexibility to do it when my family doesn't need me.
She may be referring to generous leave policies or flexible scheduling. Not all family friendly policies screw over the un-enkidded.
posted by MissySedai at 9:01 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty pleased that my employment choices allow me to put my family first. But then, I'm self-employed, and have been for years. No one else is responsible for my work, I either do it or lose the contract. I just have the flexibility to do it when my family doesn't need me.
She may be referring to generous leave policies or flexible scheduling. Not all family friendly policies screw over the un-enkidded.
posted by MissySedai at 9:01 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, and there's one thing that doesn't really get brought up that much. Most of the debate, even here in this thread is, "Having kids vs Not Having kids." That's a great debate that needs way more coverage in our society. In my own (conservative, religious) upbringing, I never really gave any thought to the progression of College > Marriage > Kids, with 'house' squished somewhere in there. The economic reality isn't really there to support those markers, but they happened anyway (except for the house, for now). Having kids is just 'something that's done,' in the culture I was raised in and it is really good to see debate over the virtue of that. In my own upbringing, I never gave 'not having kids' a second thought, until…my wife and I had a child. Having that kid pushed us into a two year long stint of poverty and debt that we're just recovering from due to sheer luck. It was financially the worst decision we could have made. But lets just set aside for a minute the lack of financial support for people who end up having kids.
But what isn't discussed, is how to help those parents out there who parenting doesn't come naturally to, and for whom it isn't 'magic because it is their child.' For everyone in this thread that's chosen not to have children, there is at least a person out there who has the same views as you, but…does indeed have a child or children. There's a small subset of 'parents who don't want kids' who don't just bail, and the lack of support for those people is sadly lacking-to-nonexistant.
I have a 3 year old, and I'm a really bad parent. I mean, it is literally the most unnatural, alien thing for me to do on a daily basis. I'm in therapy specifically because of my issues around this, and to try and develop some modicum of healthy parenting skills, to attempt to stave off completely fucking up furnace.kid.
I also churnned through therapists and other services trying to find a single one who didn't side eye me when I came into their office saying "I'm a terrible parent, I have zero innate parenting ability. I don't like being a parent. I need help becoming a decent parent without going insane" Most therapists and other professionals just try and provide access to a play group, with a bunch of parents. Or they try and suggest "here's a support group for parents with children with (same minor issues)." The problem is that I don't even like parents. I don't want to talk about kids. I don't want to be around other children. I'm barely able to cope being around my own child. That's not what I need support with. I need help getting the basic skill set around how to raise a functioning child without going insane from boredom or anxiety. There are a few forums and groups online dedicated to topics close to this, but they're mainly just middle class folk bitching about their kids or former addicts who have lost their children and trying to gain basic life skills, let alone parenting skills, which again, misses the mark.
Bringing discourse around the idea of not having children is really good, and should be encouraged, but that's not quite where the conversation ends. I've seen so many of these posts on the blue lately, and it just kills me.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:02 AM on September 24, 2014 [86 favorites]
But what isn't discussed, is how to help those parents out there who parenting doesn't come naturally to, and for whom it isn't 'magic because it is their child.' For everyone in this thread that's chosen not to have children, there is at least a person out there who has the same views as you, but…does indeed have a child or children. There's a small subset of 'parents who don't want kids' who don't just bail, and the lack of support for those people is sadly lacking-to-nonexistant.
I have a 3 year old, and I'm a really bad parent. I mean, it is literally the most unnatural, alien thing for me to do on a daily basis. I'm in therapy specifically because of my issues around this, and to try and develop some modicum of healthy parenting skills, to attempt to stave off completely fucking up furnace.kid.
I also churnned through therapists and other services trying to find a single one who didn't side eye me when I came into their office saying "I'm a terrible parent, I have zero innate parenting ability. I don't like being a parent. I need help becoming a decent parent without going insane" Most therapists and other professionals just try and provide access to a play group, with a bunch of parents. Or they try and suggest "here's a support group for parents with children with (same minor issues)." The problem is that I don't even like parents. I don't want to talk about kids. I don't want to be around other children. I'm barely able to cope being around my own child. That's not what I need support with. I need help getting the basic skill set around how to raise a functioning child without going insane from boredom or anxiety. There are a few forums and groups online dedicated to topics close to this, but they're mainly just middle class folk bitching about their kids or former addicts who have lost their children and trying to gain basic life skills, let alone parenting skills, which again, misses the mark.
Bringing discourse around the idea of not having children is really good, and should be encouraged, but that's not quite where the conversation ends. I've seen so many of these posts on the blue lately, and it just kills me.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:02 AM on September 24, 2014 [86 favorites]
Thank you for sharing that, furnace.heart.
posted by lwb at 9:08 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by lwb at 9:08 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
Furnace.heart, I'm glad you shared this with us. I think it's really necessary to know that not everyone DOES feel that magic surge of love for their very own child. It's a hard truth, but I think it's imperative that voices like yours are heard.
And snaps to you for 1) realizing that you feel this way, and 2) going into therapy to work things out! You are not blaming your awful, bratty, ungrateful child for not eliciting that Magic Parenthood Love, nor are you "coping" by becoming an alcoholic or just walking out on your family. That puts you ahead of MANY parents, IMO - even parents who DO love their child(ren) but have dysfunctional ways of coping or Just Can't Deal with the reality of a child as opposed to the fantasy of a perfect, docile-yet-high-achieving, low-maintenance "dream child."
In general, for parents who regret their decision or just don't have a good fit with the child they have, therapy is the best solution. It may not solve the whole issue, but it will help. It will certainly help the parent(s) AND child much more than crawling into a bottle, seething with anger, rejecting the child, or abandoning the family.
On a different topic, parents of onlies who desperately want grandchildren but whose child doesn't want to have them, are, I think, the only (ha ha) really strong argument against having one child. Only children do not grow up spoiled and selfish any more than children with siblings, nor are siblings necessarily best friends or a prop and comfort in adult life. But if parents either crave grandchildren or are extremely invested in having a conventionally successful (read: straight, married, great career, and, of course, children!) child, having one is more of a gamble than having two. The best solution, of course, is to realize your child is their own person and not pressure them.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:21 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
And snaps to you for 1) realizing that you feel this way, and 2) going into therapy to work things out! You are not blaming your awful, bratty, ungrateful child for not eliciting that Magic Parenthood Love, nor are you "coping" by becoming an alcoholic or just walking out on your family. That puts you ahead of MANY parents, IMO - even parents who DO love their child(ren) but have dysfunctional ways of coping or Just Can't Deal with the reality of a child as opposed to the fantasy of a perfect, docile-yet-high-achieving, low-maintenance "dream child."
In general, for parents who regret their decision or just don't have a good fit with the child they have, therapy is the best solution. It may not solve the whole issue, but it will help. It will certainly help the parent(s) AND child much more than crawling into a bottle, seething with anger, rejecting the child, or abandoning the family.
On a different topic, parents of onlies who desperately want grandchildren but whose child doesn't want to have them, are, I think, the only (ha ha) really strong argument against having one child. Only children do not grow up spoiled and selfish any more than children with siblings, nor are siblings necessarily best friends or a prop and comfort in adult life. But if parents either crave grandchildren or are extremely invested in having a conventionally successful (read: straight, married, great career, and, of course, children!) child, having one is more of a gamble than having two. The best solution, of course, is to realize your child is their own person and not pressure them.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:21 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I also get lots of of comments to the effect of how our "chocolate-vanilla swirl babies would be SO CUTE"
There should be a panic button you can press when this happens which results in a group of trained assassins leaping out of the shadows to subdue the creepy asshats who say this sort of thing.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:24 AM on September 24, 2014 [11 favorites]
There should be a panic button you can press when this happens which results in a group of trained assassins leaping out of the shadows to subdue the creepy asshats who say this sort of thing.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:24 AM on September 24, 2014 [11 favorites]
For everyone in this thread that's chosen not to have children, there is at least a person out there who has the same views as you, but…does indeed have a child or children. There's a small subset of 'parents who don't want kids' who don't just bail, and the lack of support for those people is sadly lacking-to-nonexistant.
Preach. Thank you so much for making this comment, especially because I think your viewpoint is the most invisibilized of all when it comes to discussions about child-bearing and child-rearing. Everyone is told "it's different when it's yours," everyone is told they'll fall in instant, earth-shattering, all-encompassing love with their child as soon as s/he arrives onto the scene, everyone is told that parenting will come to them naturally once they pop one out; of course, it doesn't always happen that way. People struggle, they suffer mightily, they have regrets, they realize too late that they are not capable of handling parenthood. But even though there's no going back once the kid is here, they're not allowed to talk about the impossible bind they're in, and there's no support system for people who feel that way.
Neither of my parents wanted children but they had us anyway; since I came first, the brunt of the "blame" fell on me, and the first 20-odd years of my life were spent being told exactly how much of an annoying, inescapable burden I was as a child. Once I turned 18 and they didn't have to lift a finger for me anymore, the litany of complaints just became a recounting of grievances from my childhood. My parents didn't like noise, they didn't like mess, they didn't like being asked stupid questions, they certainly didn't like each other, and my birth was the summation of all of those things put together. They never got over it, never stopped resenting me. No one came to their (our) aid aside from the occasional visit from CPS.
Aside from food and housing benefits, the only real assistance they were offered was constant reassurance that they would get used to parenting eventually, that they would someday stop regretting having ever brought me into the world, but they never did. They always treated me like the sole obstacle standing between the life they wanted and imagined themselves having and the life they got, or at least that's what they did until I stopped speaking to them years ago. I hope they're happy now, and I mean that sincerely. I was the worst thing that ever happened to them and I can only pray that my absence has lifted some of that burden.
I don't know if anything could have been done for them short of building a time machine or enabling post-partum termination, but I do know that people of reproductive age are often sold a bill of goods that simply does not match up with reality on the ground... and there's not exactly a great return policy once you buy in.
posted by divined by radio at 9:30 AM on September 24, 2014 [20 favorites]
Preach. Thank you so much for making this comment, especially because I think your viewpoint is the most invisibilized of all when it comes to discussions about child-bearing and child-rearing. Everyone is told "it's different when it's yours," everyone is told they'll fall in instant, earth-shattering, all-encompassing love with their child as soon as s/he arrives onto the scene, everyone is told that parenting will come to them naturally once they pop one out; of course, it doesn't always happen that way. People struggle, they suffer mightily, they have regrets, they realize too late that they are not capable of handling parenthood. But even though there's no going back once the kid is here, they're not allowed to talk about the impossible bind they're in, and there's no support system for people who feel that way.
Neither of my parents wanted children but they had us anyway; since I came first, the brunt of the "blame" fell on me, and the first 20-odd years of my life were spent being told exactly how much of an annoying, inescapable burden I was as a child. Once I turned 18 and they didn't have to lift a finger for me anymore, the litany of complaints just became a recounting of grievances from my childhood. My parents didn't like noise, they didn't like mess, they didn't like being asked stupid questions, they certainly didn't like each other, and my birth was the summation of all of those things put together. They never got over it, never stopped resenting me. No one came to their (our) aid aside from the occasional visit from CPS.
Aside from food and housing benefits, the only real assistance they were offered was constant reassurance that they would get used to parenting eventually, that they would someday stop regretting having ever brought me into the world, but they never did. They always treated me like the sole obstacle standing between the life they wanted and imagined themselves having and the life they got, or at least that's what they did until I stopped speaking to them years ago. I hope they're happy now, and I mean that sincerely. I was the worst thing that ever happened to them and I can only pray that my absence has lifted some of that burden.
I don't know if anything could have been done for them short of building a time machine or enabling post-partum termination, but I do know that people of reproductive age are often sold a bill of goods that simply does not match up with reality on the ground... and there's not exactly a great return policy once you buy in.
posted by divined by radio at 9:30 AM on September 24, 2014 [20 favorites]
I want to clarify by saying that the only time that I've ever even thought of telling someone that I think having kids is selfish?
Is when they're grilling me about my own decision not to have kids. I would never, in a million years, dream of saying to someone, "Why do you have kids? Don't you know how selfish that is of you?" But saying to me, "Why not? That's so selfish!" is totally fine and socially acceptable.
I have had the "kids" discussion with literally everyone I know. Literally. Everyone. I. Know. has asked me when I'm having kids, why I'm not having kids, etc. I keep the "I think having kids is selfish" argument to myself, even when I'm being grilled.
Telling someone that their life choice is wrong for any reason is the wrong thing to do. Leave me to my own "selfish" choices and I'll leave you to yours.
posted by sockermom at 9:32 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
Is when they're grilling me about my own decision not to have kids. I would never, in a million years, dream of saying to someone, "Why do you have kids? Don't you know how selfish that is of you?" But saying to me, "Why not? That's so selfish!" is totally fine and socially acceptable.
I have had the "kids" discussion with literally everyone I know. Literally. Everyone. I. Know. has asked me when I'm having kids, why I'm not having kids, etc. I keep the "I think having kids is selfish" argument to myself, even when I'm being grilled.
Telling someone that their life choice is wrong for any reason is the wrong thing to do. Leave me to my own "selfish" choices and I'll leave you to yours.
posted by sockermom at 9:32 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
I have a 3 year old, and I'm a really bad parent. I mean, it is literally the most unnatural, alien thing for me to do on a daily basis.
I had long said that being a parent wasn't something I was, but something I did. I never felt any particular longing to be a father, (and it happened accidentally) so, I approached it with the same practical workmanship I do with say, taking care of the dogs.
The good news is that my son has grown into a fine adult and good, largely well adjusted, person despite my lack of innate parenting instinct.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:34 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
I had long said that being a parent wasn't something I was, but something I did. I never felt any particular longing to be a father, (and it happened accidentally) so, I approached it with the same practical workmanship I do with say, taking care of the dogs.
The good news is that my son has grown into a fine adult and good, largely well adjusted, person despite my lack of innate parenting instinct.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:34 AM on September 24, 2014 [1 favorite]
In some ways, these discussions led by those of us who decided not to have kids are more for the next generation. I know my conversation with my mother about why I didn't want kids was much easier because my grandmother wasn't terribly good at being a mother. When I told my mom at 21 that I wanted my tubes tied, she just nodded and said, "I always thought you were a lot like my mother. Her life would have been different if she'd been able to make that choice."
That doesn't mean the rest of my family or random strangers even have ever shut up about whether or not I should have kids. And that doesn't make my decision any less complicated, but it helped a great deal to understand that it was even a possibility.
The more young men and women grow up hearing that you can choose not to have kids and still be an adult and happy person, the more they will see it as a valid option and maybe not fall victim to the lie that you have to have the babies to be a person.
posted by teleri025 at 9:39 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
That doesn't mean the rest of my family or random strangers even have ever shut up about whether or not I should have kids. And that doesn't make my decision any less complicated, but it helped a great deal to understand that it was even a possibility.
The more young men and women grow up hearing that you can choose not to have kids and still be an adult and happy person, the more they will see it as a valid option and maybe not fall victim to the lie that you have to have the babies to be a person.
posted by teleri025 at 9:39 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
furnace.heart, thank you.
MissySedai: She may be referring to generous leave policies or flexible scheduling. Not all family friendly policies screw over the un-enkidded.
True, true. We have those where I work too, but it still happens. Someone has to leave to pick up a sick kid, can you finish this up? Of course! People help each other out, that's what they do. After enough times, though, you may start to wonder. :)
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 9:42 AM on September 24, 2014
MissySedai: She may be referring to generous leave policies or flexible scheduling. Not all family friendly policies screw over the un-enkidded.
True, true. We have those where I work too, but it still happens. Someone has to leave to pick up a sick kid, can you finish this up? Of course! People help each other out, that's what they do. After enough times, though, you may start to wonder. :)
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 9:42 AM on September 24, 2014
Now that my 50s are much closer than my 30s, it's finally starting to taper off. But, being replaced by a "Don't you feel like you missed out?" or "That's what keeps me and the spouse together."
Oh man, the "that's what keeps me in my marriage" comments are so sad. I was talking to my best friend a couple of weeks ago about a couple we know that's divorcing, and I said to her that of all the married couples I know, only one of them seems to genuinely be happy together and enjoy each other's company, and that's a couple I know that just had their 17th wedding anniversary and have no children. My best friend simply cannot understand how this couple has been married so long with no children to force them to stay together and deal with each other, because if she didn't have children she wouldn't stay in her marriage. And she's far from the only married-with-kids person I know that has said that exact thing to me, that they wouldn't stay in their marriage if it weren't for the kids. (If any of these marriages that I'm talking about make it another five years, I will be AMAZED.)
It's things like that that make me truly, genuinely happy to be single. I may be lonely sometimes, but by god, I never have to deal with the feeling of being trapped in a marriage to a person I wouldn't stick by if we didn't have these damn kids to raise. How fucking horrifying. It makes me wonder, did they like their spouse as an actual person when they got married? Did they just get married because they wanted babies and that seemed like the best way to go about it? Do they think about the kind of relationship model they're providing those kids they're staying together to raise?
posted by palomar at 9:44 AM on September 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
Oh man, the "that's what keeps me in my marriage" comments are so sad. I was talking to my best friend a couple of weeks ago about a couple we know that's divorcing, and I said to her that of all the married couples I know, only one of them seems to genuinely be happy together and enjoy each other's company, and that's a couple I know that just had their 17th wedding anniversary and have no children. My best friend simply cannot understand how this couple has been married so long with no children to force them to stay together and deal with each other, because if she didn't have children she wouldn't stay in her marriage. And she's far from the only married-with-kids person I know that has said that exact thing to me, that they wouldn't stay in their marriage if it weren't for the kids. (If any of these marriages that I'm talking about make it another five years, I will be AMAZED.)
It's things like that that make me truly, genuinely happy to be single. I may be lonely sometimes, but by god, I never have to deal with the feeling of being trapped in a marriage to a person I wouldn't stick by if we didn't have these damn kids to raise. How fucking horrifying. It makes me wonder, did they like their spouse as an actual person when they got married? Did they just get married because they wanted babies and that seemed like the best way to go about it? Do they think about the kind of relationship model they're providing those kids they're staying together to raise?
posted by palomar at 9:44 AM on September 24, 2014 [6 favorites]
It's not just what people think. Promotions and assignments go to "normal" people. A young woman with no kids or a married woman with no kids is not normal.
But still, I can also be punished for the potential to suddenly swerve into the mommy-track lane and quit.
Seriously, dude, women have mothers who cry about this.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:44 AM on September 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
But still, I can also be punished for the potential to suddenly swerve into the mommy-track lane and quit.
Seriously, dude, women have mothers who cry about this.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:44 AM on September 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
Everyone is told "it's different when it's yours," everyone is told they'll fall in instant, earth-shattering, all-encompassing love with their child as soon as s/he arrives onto the scene, everyone is told that parenting will come to them naturally once they pop one out; of course, it doesn't always happen that way.
What a lot of people don't get when you don't have that connection is that the expected societal goalposts of 'falling in love with your kid,' move constantly, too. My wife and I were in couples therapy when she was pregnant; the therapist said it would happen when the child was born. After the kid was born it was 'wait until he learns to smile back at you.' Then it was 'When they turn about 3, something clicks.' Now it's 'well maybe it'll happen when they're in grade school, and you can relate to them more.' And I'm sure the goalposts will move again in a few years.
It just doesn't happen for some people. I'm very vocal about this in my own social circles because I feel like it is an important myth that needs to be called the fuck out.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:52 AM on September 24, 2014 [22 favorites]
What a lot of people don't get when you don't have that connection is that the expected societal goalposts of 'falling in love with your kid,' move constantly, too. My wife and I were in couples therapy when she was pregnant; the therapist said it would happen when the child was born. After the kid was born it was 'wait until he learns to smile back at you.' Then it was 'When they turn about 3, something clicks.' Now it's 'well maybe it'll happen when they're in grade school, and you can relate to them more.' And I'm sure the goalposts will move again in a few years.
It just doesn't happen for some people. I'm very vocal about this in my own social circles because I feel like it is an important myth that needs to be called the fuck out.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:52 AM on September 24, 2014 [22 favorites]
furnace.heart Maybe do an AskMetaFilter on this topic so we can try to sort out some of the specifics you are dealing with. You sound like a passionate guy with a ton of insight.
posted by Emor at 10:11 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Emor at 10:11 AM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
I suspect my own mother wasn't hardwired for the child-rearing experience. Let me tell you: it registered with me, even as a kid. Once my sibling started having kids, and I had some appalling student loan debts, we seem to have covered the gamut of basic expectations between us. And so no pressure on me to have kids. But the social pressure to be married (not from parents) is something else entirely.
If you're old enough to have kids, then you're old enough to choose not to. And you can change your mind (but if you have a significant other, YMMV). Pressuring somebody else to make life just to mirror expectations is a function of ego with no regard for outcome.
posted by datawrangler at 10:24 AM on September 24, 2014
If you're old enough to have kids, then you're old enough to choose not to. And you can change your mind (but if you have a significant other, YMMV). Pressuring somebody else to make life just to mirror expectations is a function of ego with no regard for outcome.
posted by datawrangler at 10:24 AM on September 24, 2014
When my partner of six years and I announced our engagement, everyone was thrilled. We called his dad and stepmom, who expressed their joy and enthusiasm to him, then asked to pass the phone to me. I picked up the phone expecting to get the same adulation, and heard my husband's stepmother say "Remember, Kathryn, being married means having children. And it means having them over and over again until you get a boy."
I was shocked, but not QUITE too shocked to say "We are expecting to have a kid or two, yes. But in terms of number, gender, and timing, you will take what I give you and love them regardless."
The same woman told me, when my daughter started wearing size 2T clothes, "You know what the T stands for? It stands for Time to Have Another Baby!"
We're done now, we have a girl and a boy, four years apart, exactly the kind of perfect family that shows up on greeting cards, but I *still* get hassled by her about when we're going to have another kid. No matter how often I say "HusbandT got sick when our second kid was 10 months old and now has to take a drug that makes conception almost impossible and would virtually guarantee birth defects even if we could conceive." It angers me beyond belief -- and I WANTED TO HAVE CHILDREN. I can't imagine the guilt trip if we had chosen not to. The pressure is real, and it's ridiculous. As someone on the more common side of the choices, I consider it my duty to stand up for people who choose not to have children, because god DAMN it is not any of anyone's business.
posted by KathrynT at 10:28 AM on September 24, 2014 [14 favorites]
I was shocked, but not QUITE too shocked to say "We are expecting to have a kid or two, yes. But in terms of number, gender, and timing, you will take what I give you and love them regardless."
The same woman told me, when my daughter started wearing size 2T clothes, "You know what the T stands for? It stands for Time to Have Another Baby!"
We're done now, we have a girl and a boy, four years apart, exactly the kind of perfect family that shows up on greeting cards, but I *still* get hassled by her about when we're going to have another kid. No matter how often I say "HusbandT got sick when our second kid was 10 months old and now has to take a drug that makes conception almost impossible and would virtually guarantee birth defects even if we could conceive." It angers me beyond belief -- and I WANTED TO HAVE CHILDREN. I can't imagine the guilt trip if we had chosen not to. The pressure is real, and it's ridiculous. As someone on the more common side of the choices, I consider it my duty to stand up for people who choose not to have children, because god DAMN it is not any of anyone's business.
posted by KathrynT at 10:28 AM on September 24, 2014 [14 favorites]
I was actually relieved when Nature put its Cancer suit on and took the choice out of my hands ten years ago. Because people - both family and friends - had been telling me since I was five years old that it was my inevitable fate and duty to bear children, and that no matter how much I didn't want to before it happened, i would like it when it inescapably did.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:02 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:02 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
Sometimes I see children in airports. Is one of them mine? There’s really no way to know. You’ll just know, other women reassure me. And sometimes I think I do, but then some other woman starts screaming at me when I start to wheel the stroller, so I’m not really sure I can trust my own instincts.
posted by mudpuppie at 11:25 AM on September 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by mudpuppie at 11:25 AM on September 24, 2014 [9 favorites]
It's not just what people think. Promotions and assignments go to "normal" people. A young woman with no kids or a married woman with no kids is not normal.
So much word to this.
posted by sweetkid at 11:35 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
So much word to this.
posted by sweetkid at 11:35 AM on September 24, 2014 [3 favorites]
For me the peak "are you guys going to have children?" years were the ages from 35-40.
I didn't really mind the questions; it's one I asked myself, and my friends and I would have more intimate and personal conversations. The problem was that there was no right answer. Or rather, I could have said yes or no, but ambivalence was not an option. Anything I said (I worry about money; I'd rather be in a more stable relationship; I don't want to be a single dad; I worry about passing on certain genetic traits) would be thoroughly rebutted.
Oftentimes I felt that my answers were triggers for the person asking the question. So I learned to just mumble something incoherent.
Note that these were all nice gentle west-coast progressives - this wasn't coming from the conservative friends back in the heartland. What I got back in the Midwest was generally "We all choose our own path" & a change in topic, which in some ways was more "progressive" than the progressives.
But I'm 48, and those questions are mostly part of my past.
Ironically, the only asshole I know on the topic is anti-child and militantly child-free, and he lets everyone know his strong opinions.
posted by kanewai at 11:36 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
I didn't really mind the questions; it's one I asked myself, and my friends and I would have more intimate and personal conversations. The problem was that there was no right answer. Or rather, I could have said yes or no, but ambivalence was not an option. Anything I said (I worry about money; I'd rather be in a more stable relationship; I don't want to be a single dad; I worry about passing on certain genetic traits) would be thoroughly rebutted.
Oftentimes I felt that my answers were triggers for the person asking the question. So I learned to just mumble something incoherent.
Note that these were all nice gentle west-coast progressives - this wasn't coming from the conservative friends back in the heartland. What I got back in the Midwest was generally "We all choose our own path" & a change in topic, which in some ways was more "progressive" than the progressives.
But I'm 48, and those questions are mostly part of my past.
Ironically, the only asshole I know on the topic is anti-child and militantly child-free, and he lets everyone know his strong opinions.
posted by kanewai at 11:36 AM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm always interested in discussions of the nature of the experience of having a life without children, partly because my pronounced queerness meant I was generally off the hook, and partly because, while officially childless, I often was able to make my rent in the mid-eighties by making a profession out of my hobby and my absurdly high sperm count, vigorous motility, centuries-long family history of good health, and moderately well-put-togetherness, and so there are almost certainly a number of twenty-somethings out there who could be described as having a familiar look.
I didn't so much get the usual parenting drills that my kin got, though I'd occasionally get into it with all the relatively smarter folks who thought they discovered some new intellectual notion about homosexuality by asking, with a little sympathetic tilt of the head, if I ever felt like I'd be missing out by not participating in the activity that's the point of humanity. In angry young man days, I'd get very reactionary to the whole notion that reproduction is the point of being human, but in adulthood, it's easier to just give my own head a little sympathetic tilt and fire a fusillade of counterpoints into the old tired targets, or just let it go.
"If you don't pass along your genes, aren't you sort of failing at evolution? If gay people don't pass along their genes, won't they die out?"
Relatively smart folks love this notion, in that they think they have some sort of grasp of the perfect gotcha that we'd left out in all the rush to basic human decency, but I could match them right down till we were arguing at the atomic level.
"Well," I'd say, "the genes my siblings and I share are getting passed along, and my being here as an elder figure in my family community in a role that's not subject to the same time and monetary demands of parenting means that my family community is protected, educated, and promoted. I have no doubt that a gene pool where there's a quantity of aunts and uncles not directly reproducing is more likely to produce successful kids, because those kids have parents and fractional parents who can give them qualities and experiences that kids with just primary biological parents just aren't going to have. I'd rather pass along the world I've seen myself than the one that came in the glove compartment."
"Hmm."
It's interesting to see that studies of epigenetic expression and communities that incorporate non-reproducing members into key roles in the community (see also: Winkte, Berdache, Māhū, gay uncles, and fa'afafine for more elaboration) are starting to back up the sort of quasi-mystical reproductive cosmology I was putting together in my head back when I still cared about the nonsensical "why are we here?" question that dumb people cram into our heads as if the answer isn't entirely obvious.
And still, family gatherings are oppressively oriented to the thunderous waltz clomping around to the drumbeat of mean old elders who want to make sure that we know that we're fat, that we're not focused in our careers, that we're not successful, that we're single, or not yet working hard enough to follow their lead, who attempt to drown us in a fluttering blizzard of baby photos, as if the damn things don't all look more or less alike, and that, at times, is a hell of a burden and a weighty, complicated dis, but you have to really just take a breath, give them their place in the realm of the uninformed, and let it go, or spare yourself the trouble and find your own family out there, made of people you love and who love you, too, no matter what you do. I've had my bummed-out moments of feeling completely left out of the family, and I've disconnected from whole sections, never to return, and I've found ways to be reproductive in my own way, as well.
I have reared no children, and, at 46, am not going to start anytime soon, but the world is full of people who are better for having known me. I've been a camp counselor and a counselor to gay kids back when things were still so much worse than now, and my nieces, my nephews, the kids who worked for me as interns, the neighbors, and the kids of my friends and former mates all know that I will beat back the world if that's what it takes to keep them safe, and they can always come to me for ideas and wisdom and stories and caution and support.
No one will ever call me "Dad," but I am confident that I have added to the world, and am doing so, more every day as I work through and out from the delusions of my own youth and my fixations and hang-ups and neuroses, so what's to miss? I'm loved and I have loved, and there's just so much more. I love the parents and children in my expanding intentional family, and we all have our place in the world. Now and then, I think that maybe, some of my genes are out there, too, and that makes me smile, but it's ultimately inconsequential, and the sperm bank is long gone, ground under along with the medical center that housed it, and yet I barely ponder for a very rare moment and then just let it go.
posted by sonascope at 11:46 AM on September 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
I didn't so much get the usual parenting drills that my kin got, though I'd occasionally get into it with all the relatively smarter folks who thought they discovered some new intellectual notion about homosexuality by asking, with a little sympathetic tilt of the head, if I ever felt like I'd be missing out by not participating in the activity that's the point of humanity. In angry young man days, I'd get very reactionary to the whole notion that reproduction is the point of being human, but in adulthood, it's easier to just give my own head a little sympathetic tilt and fire a fusillade of counterpoints into the old tired targets, or just let it go.
"If you don't pass along your genes, aren't you sort of failing at evolution? If gay people don't pass along their genes, won't they die out?"
Relatively smart folks love this notion, in that they think they have some sort of grasp of the perfect gotcha that we'd left out in all the rush to basic human decency, but I could match them right down till we were arguing at the atomic level.
"Well," I'd say, "the genes my siblings and I share are getting passed along, and my being here as an elder figure in my family community in a role that's not subject to the same time and monetary demands of parenting means that my family community is protected, educated, and promoted. I have no doubt that a gene pool where there's a quantity of aunts and uncles not directly reproducing is more likely to produce successful kids, because those kids have parents and fractional parents who can give them qualities and experiences that kids with just primary biological parents just aren't going to have. I'd rather pass along the world I've seen myself than the one that came in the glove compartment."
"Hmm."
It's interesting to see that studies of epigenetic expression and communities that incorporate non-reproducing members into key roles in the community (see also: Winkte, Berdache, Māhū, gay uncles, and fa'afafine for more elaboration) are starting to back up the sort of quasi-mystical reproductive cosmology I was putting together in my head back when I still cared about the nonsensical "why are we here?" question that dumb people cram into our heads as if the answer isn't entirely obvious.
And still, family gatherings are oppressively oriented to the thunderous waltz clomping around to the drumbeat of mean old elders who want to make sure that we know that we're fat, that we're not focused in our careers, that we're not successful, that we're single, or not yet working hard enough to follow their lead, who attempt to drown us in a fluttering blizzard of baby photos, as if the damn things don't all look more or less alike, and that, at times, is a hell of a burden and a weighty, complicated dis, but you have to really just take a breath, give them their place in the realm of the uninformed, and let it go, or spare yourself the trouble and find your own family out there, made of people you love and who love you, too, no matter what you do. I've had my bummed-out moments of feeling completely left out of the family, and I've disconnected from whole sections, never to return, and I've found ways to be reproductive in my own way, as well.
I have reared no children, and, at 46, am not going to start anytime soon, but the world is full of people who are better for having known me. I've been a camp counselor and a counselor to gay kids back when things were still so much worse than now, and my nieces, my nephews, the kids who worked for me as interns, the neighbors, and the kids of my friends and former mates all know that I will beat back the world if that's what it takes to keep them safe, and they can always come to me for ideas and wisdom and stories and caution and support.
No one will ever call me "Dad," but I am confident that I have added to the world, and am doing so, more every day as I work through and out from the delusions of my own youth and my fixations and hang-ups and neuroses, so what's to miss? I'm loved and I have loved, and there's just so much more. I love the parents and children in my expanding intentional family, and we all have our place in the world. Now and then, I think that maybe, some of my genes are out there, too, and that makes me smile, but it's ultimately inconsequential, and the sperm bank is long gone, ground under along with the medical center that housed it, and yet I barely ponder for a very rare moment and then just let it go.
posted by sonascope at 11:46 AM on September 24, 2014 [10 favorites]
It's not just what people think. Promotions and assignments go to "normal" people. A young woman with no kids or a married woman with no kids is not normal.
Okay, I really want to hear more on this. I loved it when you said that promotions and assignments go to "normal" people, but I'm not so sure that the corporate world favors women with children.
posted by kitcat at 11:48 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
Okay, I really want to hear more on this. I loved it when you said that promotions and assignments go to "normal" people, but I'm not so sure that the corporate world favors women with children.
posted by kitcat at 11:48 AM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
When I was 17, I informed my mother I wasn't going to have children. She nearly drove her car into a ditch. I say this with a sense of humor, but it really did stun her -- I think she'd always been a little worried about me in this way, and I had just confirmed her fear.
Up until 34, I thought I would be childless, and I had accepted that fate and simply planned for more trips to Europe. It changed when my husband changed his mind. And so we made Zo.
At 37, I became a mom, and I can honestly say I enjoy it and would have ten more babies if we had the money and support to do so (we do not). I love my daughter, I have an emotional connection with her, and I don't find looking after her to be a hardship. It helps that my husband is my partner in this, and we often "tag-team" the work of watching her. But above that, it's not work if you love it, and I really love spending time with her, even when it's exhausting.
But I didn't know going in that it would be that way. I was not a great babysitter in my teens, and had a short temper with crying kids; it was this that made me believe I would not be a good mother. Turns out, you get a longer fuse when it's your own kid.
I can only imagine for these moms and dads who realize they don't want to be parents that the panic is overwhelming. We're supposed to love our children, right? Maybe this is where child abuse comes from. I don't know.
Anyway, we are planning on a #2 next year, providing this aging vessel allows it. We have been blessed with enough fortune in life to afford it. I have now been wrestling with the worry that we won't be able to conceive (I just skipped a period, and not because I'm pregnant; I think this may be peri-menopause starting to shift into gear), and what if Zo is an only child? Honestly, it's not as magnified as before I had her, but it does nag at me. Just goes to show that even when you do have it all (or most of it, at least) there's always one more thing to worry at you.
But it took years to shake free of the MUST HAVE BABIES conditioning, and I often laugh that when I did come to peace with it was when my husband decided he wanted children after all. Of course.
posted by offalark at 12:04 PM on September 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
Up until 34, I thought I would be childless, and I had accepted that fate and simply planned for more trips to Europe. It changed when my husband changed his mind. And so we made Zo.
At 37, I became a mom, and I can honestly say I enjoy it and would have ten more babies if we had the money and support to do so (we do not). I love my daughter, I have an emotional connection with her, and I don't find looking after her to be a hardship. It helps that my husband is my partner in this, and we often "tag-team" the work of watching her. But above that, it's not work if you love it, and I really love spending time with her, even when it's exhausting.
But I didn't know going in that it would be that way. I was not a great babysitter in my teens, and had a short temper with crying kids; it was this that made me believe I would not be a good mother. Turns out, you get a longer fuse when it's your own kid.
I can only imagine for these moms and dads who realize they don't want to be parents that the panic is overwhelming. We're supposed to love our children, right? Maybe this is where child abuse comes from. I don't know.
Anyway, we are planning on a #2 next year, providing this aging vessel allows it. We have been blessed with enough fortune in life to afford it. I have now been wrestling with the worry that we won't be able to conceive (I just skipped a period, and not because I'm pregnant; I think this may be peri-menopause starting to shift into gear), and what if Zo is an only child? Honestly, it's not as magnified as before I had her, but it does nag at me. Just goes to show that even when you do have it all (or most of it, at least) there's always one more thing to worry at you.
But it took years to shake free of the MUST HAVE BABIES conditioning, and I often laugh that when I did come to peace with it was when my husband decided he wanted children after all. Of course.
posted by offalark at 12:04 PM on September 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
partly because my pronounced queerness meant I was generally off the hook
I never really thought about it until now, but....the reason no one has ever asked me when I'm going to have kids is because I am exceedingly visibly queer, and get read as butch woman all the time, and therefore, of course, I must be incapable of/uninterested in having children, or else my sex life is too squicky to contemplate or something. Fortunately, I have absolutely never wanted children - I still remember a truly dreadful vivid nightmare from when I was eight or nine in which I was pregnant - but it didn't occur to me until now that I haven't just been lucky or lived around polite people. Hands up for homphobia, in this specific instance only!
posted by Frowner at 12:11 PM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
I never really thought about it until now, but....the reason no one has ever asked me when I'm going to have kids is because I am exceedingly visibly queer, and get read as butch woman all the time, and therefore, of course, I must be incapable of/uninterested in having children, or else my sex life is too squicky to contemplate or something. Fortunately, I have absolutely never wanted children - I still remember a truly dreadful vivid nightmare from when I was eight or nine in which I was pregnant - but it didn't occur to me until now that I haven't just been lucky or lived around polite people. Hands up for homphobia, in this specific instance only!
posted by Frowner at 12:11 PM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
This has been on my mind a whole lot recently. I've said my whole life that I don't want kids. I didn't like kids when I was a kid - I mostly just wanted to be left alone so I could read in peace. I adamantly did not want a younger sibling, so much so that when my parents told me they were expecting again I legitimately thought they were pulling my leg because of how much I'd protested against the notion my whole life. I have much more of a maternal reaction towards photos of kittens than I do towards photos of babies.
But sometime in the last few years, I've gone from "110% not wanting kids" to "95% not wanting kids". I've been worrying that the trend is going to continue, and I'll find myself in my early thirties being truly ambivalent about one of the biggest decisions you can make about your life, and then what?
I think this reversal is partially because I've become friends with some really cool people who happen to have kids, and I see how happy they are to love a tiny human and watch it grow up under their influence and they are still their own individual kickass selves. I can see by their example how parenting doesn't have to be this burden you resent for disrupting your career. I can even relate to the joy, to a certain extent; my sister is 11 years younger than me, and I've loved seeing her learn and grow and being there for her and guiding her through the same stuff I went through. And when I think about that, I worry about missing out on this supposedly great adventure, missing out on the highs (and even the lows), and I think "it'd be pretty cool to raise a tiny human of my own".
But when I think about visions of my future - where I'll live (the Bay Area), what I'll be doing (programming? probably?), what I want my ultimate achievement to be (the next great Canadian novel) - none of those visions involve having a kid. The lifestyle I want, the things I want to do with my time, the goals I want to accomplish - all of those are clear in my mind. Having offspring...is not. And that's not even getting into the history of depression and anxiety, pessimism about our climate/economy/culture/politics, fear about birth defects or complications, what if I don't get along with my kid and it likes Nickelback, etc.
I'm good with kids and kids like me, even when I was at my most anti-child. It's like kids can sense who doesn't like them. Uncontrollable chemical imbalances aside, I'm pretty sure I'd be a pretty kickass parent. But being good at something doesn't mean it's something you should do, and I'd also be a pretty great aunt. I've thought about fostering, but there's an irrational part of my hindbrain that says that if I'm going to give up the childfree lifestyle that I'd want at least one kid with my genes, and then we're back at square 1 of the thought process.
Sometimes I think I would be relieved if it turned out I were incapable of having kids. I would be sad, probably, but it would also take the decision out of my hands, and then I wouldn't feel so damn guilty about waffling so much about choosing one or the other. That's probably a good indicator that I shouldn't have kids, but...as Harding says, I still can't bring myself to say Never.
posted by Phire at 1:11 PM on September 24, 2014 [15 favorites]
But sometime in the last few years, I've gone from "110% not wanting kids" to "95% not wanting kids". I've been worrying that the trend is going to continue, and I'll find myself in my early thirties being truly ambivalent about one of the biggest decisions you can make about your life, and then what?
I think this reversal is partially because I've become friends with some really cool people who happen to have kids, and I see how happy they are to love a tiny human and watch it grow up under their influence and they are still their own individual kickass selves. I can see by their example how parenting doesn't have to be this burden you resent for disrupting your career. I can even relate to the joy, to a certain extent; my sister is 11 years younger than me, and I've loved seeing her learn and grow and being there for her and guiding her through the same stuff I went through. And when I think about that, I worry about missing out on this supposedly great adventure, missing out on the highs (and even the lows), and I think "it'd be pretty cool to raise a tiny human of my own".
But when I think about visions of my future - where I'll live (the Bay Area), what I'll be doing (programming? probably?), what I want my ultimate achievement to be (the next great Canadian novel) - none of those visions involve having a kid. The lifestyle I want, the things I want to do with my time, the goals I want to accomplish - all of those are clear in my mind. Having offspring...is not. And that's not even getting into the history of depression and anxiety, pessimism about our climate/economy/culture/politics, fear about birth defects or complications, what if I don't get along with my kid and it likes Nickelback, etc.
I'm good with kids and kids like me, even when I was at my most anti-child. It's like kids can sense who doesn't like them. Uncontrollable chemical imbalances aside, I'm pretty sure I'd be a pretty kickass parent. But being good at something doesn't mean it's something you should do, and I'd also be a pretty great aunt. I've thought about fostering, but there's an irrational part of my hindbrain that says that if I'm going to give up the childfree lifestyle that I'd want at least one kid with my genes, and then we're back at square 1 of the thought process.
Sometimes I think I would be relieved if it turned out I were incapable of having kids. I would be sad, probably, but it would also take the decision out of my hands, and then I wouldn't feel so damn guilty about waffling so much about choosing one or the other. That's probably a good indicator that I shouldn't have kids, but...as Harding says, I still can't bring myself to say Never.
posted by Phire at 1:11 PM on September 24, 2014 [15 favorites]
what if Zo is an only child? Honestly, it's not as magnified as before I had her, but it does nag at me. Just goes to show that even when you do have it all (or most of it, at least) there's always one more thing to worry at you.
If so? She'll be fine. Onlys aren't any less happy as a group than other kids. Don't believe that propaganda either. Our kid did kind of want a younger sibling, until we babysat someone's toddler, and then he was like "Wow, that kid was annoying." So now he's good being on his own, although he is still very nurturing and seems like the type who would have kids someday. But who knows. In the meantime, he orders our cats around, for all the good that does.
posted by emjaybee at 1:36 PM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
If so? She'll be fine. Onlys aren't any less happy as a group than other kids. Don't believe that propaganda either. Our kid did kind of want a younger sibling, until we babysat someone's toddler, and then he was like "Wow, that kid was annoying." So now he's good being on his own, although he is still very nurturing and seems like the type who would have kids someday. But who knows. In the meantime, he orders our cats around, for all the good that does.
posted by emjaybee at 1:36 PM on September 24, 2014 [2 favorites]
If somebody tells you "you'd make a great mom/dad" reply "I would have also made a great porn star! The regret!"
It's a snarky way of telling people you don't have to do things just because you'd be good at them.
I get the "your children will be so beautiful" line pretty much every time I meet someone new, which makes me uncomfortable because I'm sure it's related to us being an interracial couple.
posted by Tarumba at 1:41 PM on September 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
It's a snarky way of telling people you don't have to do things just because you'd be good at them.
I get the "your children will be so beautiful" line pretty much every time I meet someone new, which makes me uncomfortable because I'm sure it's related to us being an interracial couple.
posted by Tarumba at 1:41 PM on September 24, 2014 [8 favorites]
I never wanted to have children. I got pregnant at 18 and didn't know what to do other than have the kid. I spent the first 9 months of my son's life pouring every ounce of my soul into keeping the two of us alive. I lived in a little apartment, the new wife of a deployed Marine, with no friends or family or anyone to talk to other than this screaming colicky baby. I have my second son at 25, and again ended up alone and just try to to hold the pieces together. I am only now finally working on finishing my degree so that my career can catch up to my peers. I have found motherhood to be the most challenging experience of my life. I've lost a custody battle and have had to be in the world as "A NON-CUSTODIAL MOTHER", which is like a weird scarlet A. I really enjoyed that time in a way, and was able to take care of myself in a way I'd never been able to do as an adult.
I wish I'd known other people had a hard time with parenting and mothering. My own mother told me as an adult that she wishes she was half the mom I am. My son lives with us now, and he's inherited all my crazy, and it hurts my heart a lot of days to see it. There is shockingly little support for anyone who has a hard time with mothering. I have my tubes tied now, and occasionally I feel a twinge of regret, as I have an amazing partner to whom parenting seems to come naturally. The thing is, I constantly have people tell me how amazing I am as a parent, and it's hard to hear because I feel like I'm just trying to do the right thing and no one ever says what that right thing is.
I think that knowing that you are okay never having children is such great knowledge. I love my children deeply, but I still don't feel like I was destined to be a mother on many days. Reading articles like this make me feel more like that's okay.
posted by Nimmie Amee at 1:46 PM on September 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
I wish I'd known other people had a hard time with parenting and mothering. My own mother told me as an adult that she wishes she was half the mom I am. My son lives with us now, and he's inherited all my crazy, and it hurts my heart a lot of days to see it. There is shockingly little support for anyone who has a hard time with mothering. I have my tubes tied now, and occasionally I feel a twinge of regret, as I have an amazing partner to whom parenting seems to come naturally. The thing is, I constantly have people tell me how amazing I am as a parent, and it's hard to hear because I feel like I'm just trying to do the right thing and no one ever says what that right thing is.
I think that knowing that you are okay never having children is such great knowledge. I love my children deeply, but I still don't feel like I was destined to be a mother on many days. Reading articles like this make me feel more like that's okay.
posted by Nimmie Amee at 1:46 PM on September 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
Phire, I just want to say, it's okay to change your mind. I understand that the prospect is terrifying, because I went through it. And there's a little bit of shame, too, if you were particularly vocal or sure previously. But I can say with certainty, having kids is not incompatible with writing books. I wasn't convinced of it until I read a quote by Ursula Le Guin:
If Ursula Le Guin can do it, I can, and you can, too, if you want to.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:55 PM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
It was tough trying to keep writing while bringing up three kids, but my husband was totally in it with me, and so it worked out fine. Le Guins’ Rule: One person cannot do two fulltime jobs, but two persons can do three fulltime jobs — if they honestly share the work.I just finished a new novel draft, written between the time my daughter was two months and eight months of age. I never would have been able to write it if not for the experience of new motherhood. Parenthood has made my writing life harder, but not for a moment impossible, and very likely better.
The idea that you need an ivory tower to write in, that if you have babies you can’t have books, that artists are somehow exempt from the dirty work of life — rubbish.
If Ursula Le Guin can do it, I can, and you can, too, if you want to.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:55 PM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
For everyone in this thread that's chosen not to have children, there is at least a person out there who has the same views as you, but…does indeed have a child or children.
My mother had children and she shouldn't have. She was a terrible mother. I spent the first eighteen years of my life living with a woman who not only didn't love me in the way mothers are 'supposed' to love their children, she didn't even like me as a person. I cannot describe the number of ways that has fucked me up. But it fucked her up, too. She spent eighteen years in a crippling hell of guilt because you're supposed to like your kids, and she just couldn't like me. She even told me so once; she said I was so unpleasant it was no wonder no one liked me, which is a hell of a trip to lay on an eight-year-old.
I would never have had kids for that reason, and it's also the reason why I really struggle with my first instinct when people tell me they're having kids, which is OH GOD NO DON'T TORTURE A CHILD. I try to remember that I'm an outlier and that most people at least have a mild liking for their children, but on my bad days I suspect that I'm not that much of an outlier.
posted by winna at 3:59 PM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
My mother had children and she shouldn't have. She was a terrible mother. I spent the first eighteen years of my life living with a woman who not only didn't love me in the way mothers are 'supposed' to love their children, she didn't even like me as a person. I cannot describe the number of ways that has fucked me up. But it fucked her up, too. She spent eighteen years in a crippling hell of guilt because you're supposed to like your kids, and she just couldn't like me. She even told me so once; she said I was so unpleasant it was no wonder no one liked me, which is a hell of a trip to lay on an eight-year-old.
I would never have had kids for that reason, and it's also the reason why I really struggle with my first instinct when people tell me they're having kids, which is OH GOD NO DON'T TORTURE A CHILD. I try to remember that I'm an outlier and that most people at least have a mild liking for their children, but on my bad days I suspect that I'm not that much of an outlier.
posted by winna at 3:59 PM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
The kid isn't born into a vacuum
this!
i changed my mind a bunch from 3 to 26 - going back and forth. around 20 i decided i really wanted kids - not even sure now why i felt that so strongly. i thought it was biological clock stuff, but it might have been the brainwashing of my upbringing coming to fruition. i came up with A PLAN. i needed to find the right partner by X age so that i could start trying to conceive or adopt at Y age and i could be hopefully working on child 2 by Z age, giving just enough room for an optional baby by Q if i decided on it. i put all this PRESSURE on myself, settling in situations that were wrong because my partner would make a good parent and leaving situations i was great in because they would never be a parent with me.
then my best friend at the time, when we were really drunk and i was despairing about how i was already behind on THE PLAN, just looked at me and said, "you can't make the plan until you find the partner to make it with. you're just picking up puzzle pieces shoving them into a hole you already made instead of growing that puzzle together." and, yeah, if you want kids you have to at some point only date people who want kids, but he was right - my plan was far too rigid, there was no room for growth or compromise. i was defining myself by my womb, despite thinking i had left that behind. it took another 5 years for that talk from my best friend to really stick.
and then i married him. and we decided together that i didn't really want kids, i just got so attached to the idea of having kids that i stopped considering if i had changed my mind. we made a life plan together and i am so happy.
posted by nadawi at 5:45 PM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
this!
i changed my mind a bunch from 3 to 26 - going back and forth. around 20 i decided i really wanted kids - not even sure now why i felt that so strongly. i thought it was biological clock stuff, but it might have been the brainwashing of my upbringing coming to fruition. i came up with A PLAN. i needed to find the right partner by X age so that i could start trying to conceive or adopt at Y age and i could be hopefully working on child 2 by Z age, giving just enough room for an optional baby by Q if i decided on it. i put all this PRESSURE on myself, settling in situations that were wrong because my partner would make a good parent and leaving situations i was great in because they would never be a parent with me.
then my best friend at the time, when we were really drunk and i was despairing about how i was already behind on THE PLAN, just looked at me and said, "you can't make the plan until you find the partner to make it with. you're just picking up puzzle pieces shoving them into a hole you already made instead of growing that puzzle together." and, yeah, if you want kids you have to at some point only date people who want kids, but he was right - my plan was far too rigid, there was no room for growth or compromise. i was defining myself by my womb, despite thinking i had left that behind. it took another 5 years for that talk from my best friend to really stick.
and then i married him. and we decided together that i didn't really want kids, i just got so attached to the idea of having kids that i stopped considering if i had changed my mind. we made a life plan together and i am so happy.
posted by nadawi at 5:45 PM on September 24, 2014 [4 favorites]
Furnace.heart and Nimmie Ammee, your comments reminded me of my cousin's experience, which was literally my first inkling that maybe there are parents out there who regret the path they took.
She grew up in a religious family that was very sheltered and where everyone married by 18 and started having babies immediately. My uncle has 13 kids, and some of her siblings were already on their way to emulating him. She had one, and wasn't a great mother, and was quite unhappy. But she had another because that's what you do. Then her husband left her, and because that is totally not okay within that religious circle,she was spurned by the wider family and church and sudden deprived of the help with the kids that I think was the only thing keeping her afloat as a parent.
Then one day she dropped the kids off at her mother-in-law for a "few hours" and never came back. My uncle ran into her in the city a few months later. She had taken a new job, and a new flat, and was living life as a single Unencumbered woman and absolutely refused to go back to her kids. She was happier than she had ever been. And it was a fucking tragedy for the kids. For everyone really.
I think it's really important to tell those those stories because otherwise people who suspect they don't want children or would not be good parents might be pressured into believing that they are giving up the guaranteed route to True Love and Happiness, when actually, there is no guarantee.
posted by lollusc at 6:23 PM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
She grew up in a religious family that was very sheltered and where everyone married by 18 and started having babies immediately. My uncle has 13 kids, and some of her siblings were already on their way to emulating him. She had one, and wasn't a great mother, and was quite unhappy. But she had another because that's what you do. Then her husband left her, and because that is totally not okay within that religious circle,she was spurned by the wider family and church and sudden deprived of the help with the kids that I think was the only thing keeping her afloat as a parent.
Then one day she dropped the kids off at her mother-in-law for a "few hours" and never came back. My uncle ran into her in the city a few months later. She had taken a new job, and a new flat, and was living life as a single Unencumbered woman and absolutely refused to go back to her kids. She was happier than she had ever been. And it was a fucking tragedy for the kids. For everyone really.
I think it's really important to tell those those stories because otherwise people who suspect they don't want children or would not be good parents might be pressured into believing that they are giving up the guaranteed route to True Love and Happiness, when actually, there is no guarantee.
posted by lollusc at 6:23 PM on September 24, 2014 [13 favorites]
And you know the upper class solution to this is full time nannies and boarding schools, and then people are less judgemental, but you get your freedom back. And the sheer number of rich people who take that route gives some indication of how unfulfilling the daily experience of parenting is for many people.
posted by lollusc at 6:25 PM on September 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by lollusc at 6:25 PM on September 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
I can say that I am an infinitely better parent after having been able to put my own air mask on and now that I have a support network, which is also a thing people don't talk about. It's hard as hell to be broke and have no childcare and no partner and no one to take the baby for a moment. I didn't know this, and I wish more people were honest about how hard it is.
posted by Nimmie Amee at 7:00 PM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Nimmie Amee at 7:00 PM on September 24, 2014 [5 favorites]
I was one of those "undecideds" for a long time and took the leap at the last minute (we stopped using birth control as my 40th birthday was coming up, & turns out we were fertile). I'd never felt pressure to have kids - most of my family is more interested in whether you've published anything than whether you've reproduced, and my siblings & cousins shared plenty of tales of less than ideal parenting about our hippie parents. Still, everyone liked kids, they just also liked drinking/smoking and staying up late and having a life, sometimes a bit too much on the rocknroll side...
I went through a lot of ups and downs during the pregnancy despite it being comparatively pretty easy, and it did take me a while after the baby was born to really feel connected. He smiles a lot and is absolutely adorable, but when he cries it can be excruciating, and I was just so exhausted. His dad fell in love immediately which really helped, though.
My main take-away has been that a big problem is our individual-based society. It's really hard to care for a kid by yourself or with only one other person - it really does take a village to do it without going a little bit crazy, so if you don't have a boatload of money or a huge family network that you want involved in your day to day life, you can end up run a little ragged. Both the far left and right wings are aware of this - the right wing wants to return to a traditional society and the left wants to create a socialist community - but the moderate trend is just for everyone to be "free" to make their own choices, which is fine in theory except that when you're caring for helpless fragile beings, freedom is not the virtue you're concerned with.
Basically modern society has become so obsessed with freedom, we sort of forget that most good things can be opposed to other good things and the key is to find the happy medium - like, there's a very real sense in which freedom is opposed to love and community. Too much freedom can result in isolation and loneliness, and children can provide a natural web of connectivity.
That's not an absolute, and of course there are other ways of forming communities (like online social networks, nowadays, or retirement communities...) but it's an obvious option, if reproducing is embraced on a social level. The more individual an enterprise it becomes, the harder it gets (e.g., if public school were to turn into home-schooling on a social level, we'd lose community and gain more work for parents).
posted by mdn at 7:20 PM on September 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
I went through a lot of ups and downs during the pregnancy despite it being comparatively pretty easy, and it did take me a while after the baby was born to really feel connected. He smiles a lot and is absolutely adorable, but when he cries it can be excruciating, and I was just so exhausted. His dad fell in love immediately which really helped, though.
My main take-away has been that a big problem is our individual-based society. It's really hard to care for a kid by yourself or with only one other person - it really does take a village to do it without going a little bit crazy, so if you don't have a boatload of money or a huge family network that you want involved in your day to day life, you can end up run a little ragged. Both the far left and right wings are aware of this - the right wing wants to return to a traditional society and the left wants to create a socialist community - but the moderate trend is just for everyone to be "free" to make their own choices, which is fine in theory except that when you're caring for helpless fragile beings, freedom is not the virtue you're concerned with.
Basically modern society has become so obsessed with freedom, we sort of forget that most good things can be opposed to other good things and the key is to find the happy medium - like, there's a very real sense in which freedom is opposed to love and community. Too much freedom can result in isolation and loneliness, and children can provide a natural web of connectivity.
That's not an absolute, and of course there are other ways of forming communities (like online social networks, nowadays, or retirement communities...) but it's an obvious option, if reproducing is embraced on a social level. The more individual an enterprise it becomes, the harder it gets (e.g., if public school were to turn into home-schooling on a social level, we'd lose community and gain more work for parents).
posted by mdn at 7:20 PM on September 24, 2014 [7 favorites]
One thing I always wish I could find in these stories is a representation of people who just don't see any need to have kids, pets, small creatures that depend on them, or anything like that at all. Everyone always seems to apologize for not having kids by saying that they have a dog or they like being an uncle or whatever.
I really like adults. I like freedom. I like intellectual conversations. I like being an overachiever in recognizable ways in the external world. I like unstructured time. I hate interruptions. I like travel and art and languages.
Even in fiction, people like me are the bad ones -- the witch across the street. In dating advice on Metafilter, they always say to look out for people who don't have kids or like pets.
I imagine there must be other people like me. Are you out there?
posted by 3491again at 1:30 AM on September 25, 2014 [13 favorites]
I really like adults. I like freedom. I like intellectual conversations. I like being an overachiever in recognizable ways in the external world. I like unstructured time. I hate interruptions. I like travel and art and languages.
Even in fiction, people like me are the bad ones -- the witch across the street. In dating advice on Metafilter, they always say to look out for people who don't have kids or like pets.
I imagine there must be other people like me. Are you out there?
posted by 3491again at 1:30 AM on September 25, 2014 [13 favorites]
> "I imagine there must be other people like me. Are you out there?"
No kids, no pets. I'll admit we've occasionally talked about getting a pet, but ... it's been really nice not having to deal with anyone else's poop or vomit, you know? And it's nice to be able to just travel when we want to without having to make special arrangements. So we haven't.
So, yep, we're around.
On a different note, regarding the ongoing conversation on parents who don't want or shouldn't be parents -- in recent years, whenever the conversation turns to parenting (as it occasionally does, since my brother has a couple of kids now), my father has tended to drop horrible little matter-of-fact stories about how much his parents told him they loathed and despised him. He's around 70 now, and apparently still kind of messed up about it.
posted by kyrademon at 3:23 AM on September 25, 2014
No kids, no pets. I'll admit we've occasionally talked about getting a pet, but ... it's been really nice not having to deal with anyone else's poop or vomit, you know? And it's nice to be able to just travel when we want to without having to make special arrangements. So we haven't.
So, yep, we're around.
On a different note, regarding the ongoing conversation on parents who don't want or shouldn't be parents -- in recent years, whenever the conversation turns to parenting (as it occasionally does, since my brother has a couple of kids now), my father has tended to drop horrible little matter-of-fact stories about how much his parents told him they loathed and despised him. He's around 70 now, and apparently still kind of messed up about it.
posted by kyrademon at 3:23 AM on September 25, 2014
3491again: Everyone always seems to apologize for not having kids by saying that they have a dog or they like being an uncle or whatever.
I totally agree. I feel like people think it's selfish not to have kids, but one of the main reasons I feel like I don't want kids is that I am a pessimist, and I see no point in bringing another life to this world of disproportionate misery and little flickers of joy just to satisfy a desire to feel worthwhile or genetically immortal. I love my unborn children so much that just thinking about the horrible things that could happen to them or at the very least happen around them makes me doubt whether they should come to this world at all.
I respect people who have children, but (those who planned their pregnancies) chose to do it because be it good times, the satisfaction of caring for another individual, or passing on their own wisdom, they did a cost-benefit analysis and decided having children was to their benefit. If I am selfish for not having them, then they are selfish for having them, too. I never heard of someone who had children say they hate children and they hate parenting but chose to do it out of pure altruism. That wouldn't even make sense. We all act to satisfy our own values and that does not mean we are selfish.
posted by Tarumba at 6:07 AM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
I totally agree. I feel like people think it's selfish not to have kids, but one of the main reasons I feel like I don't want kids is that I am a pessimist, and I see no point in bringing another life to this world of disproportionate misery and little flickers of joy just to satisfy a desire to feel worthwhile or genetically immortal. I love my unborn children so much that just thinking about the horrible things that could happen to them or at the very least happen around them makes me doubt whether they should come to this world at all.
I respect people who have children, but (those who planned their pregnancies) chose to do it because be it good times, the satisfaction of caring for another individual, or passing on their own wisdom, they did a cost-benefit analysis and decided having children was to their benefit. If I am selfish for not having them, then they are selfish for having them, too. I never heard of someone who had children say they hate children and they hate parenting but chose to do it out of pure altruism. That wouldn't even make sense. We all act to satisfy our own values and that does not mean we are selfish.
posted by Tarumba at 6:07 AM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
I love my unborn children so much that just thinking about the horrible things that could happen to them or at the very least happen around them makes me doubt whether they should come to this world at all.
That's what Barbara Tuchman and her husband thought circa 1940 before they had children.
One commenter a previous time this subject raised its contentious head was a fellow who said he swore when he was fifteen that he would never have children and reported that in the fullness of time he had kept his vow. He outlined quite vigorously all the benefits the rest of society derived from his adolescent decision, ending his diatribe with a sarcastic “you’re welcome”.
Of course he left out the fact that his decision means more money, more freedom, less anxiety over all for him, and that others will be left with the task of raising the coming generation he will need to do all those things a society needs younger people to do. Someone else at great trouble and expense raised the generations that make up the doctors, dentists, plumbers, engineers, etc. and who pay for his social security. You’re welcome, indeed.
Analogous to the conscientious objector. It’s true, many would be bad at soldiering, more a danger to themselves and others if put in that position. No question. But those who opt out because of disinclination, or fear, or who are opted out by fate, still benefit from the enormous risks and sacrifices that others willingly (sometimes not so willingly) make. The disparity is always hanging there. And, fairly or unfairly, generously or ungenerously, people on some level, sense this and react according to their own circumstances and their natures.
Which is why this question, like religion and politics, is a field best left un-tilled in polite conversation. Minds are not changed and ill-feelings generated.
(By the way, if you really want to stop The Question, just look pained, turn aside, and whisper “miscarriage”.)
posted by IndigoJones at 7:39 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
That's what Barbara Tuchman and her husband thought circa 1940 before they had children.
One commenter a previous time this subject raised its contentious head was a fellow who said he swore when he was fifteen that he would never have children and reported that in the fullness of time he had kept his vow. He outlined quite vigorously all the benefits the rest of society derived from his adolescent decision, ending his diatribe with a sarcastic “you’re welcome”.
Of course he left out the fact that his decision means more money, more freedom, less anxiety over all for him, and that others will be left with the task of raising the coming generation he will need to do all those things a society needs younger people to do. Someone else at great trouble and expense raised the generations that make up the doctors, dentists, plumbers, engineers, etc. and who pay for his social security. You’re welcome, indeed.
Analogous to the conscientious objector. It’s true, many would be bad at soldiering, more a danger to themselves and others if put in that position. No question. But those who opt out because of disinclination, or fear, or who are opted out by fate, still benefit from the enormous risks and sacrifices that others willingly (sometimes not so willingly) make. The disparity is always hanging there. And, fairly or unfairly, generously or ungenerously, people on some level, sense this and react according to their own circumstances and their natures.
Which is why this question, like religion and politics, is a field best left un-tilled in polite conversation. Minds are not changed and ill-feelings generated.
(By the way, if you really want to stop The Question, just look pained, turn aside, and whisper “miscarriage”.)
posted by IndigoJones at 7:39 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
how are you making the conversation better by referring to comment made in some other thread that you don't even link to and then taking that poster to task (who i assume isn't even in this thread?). your sneering isn't really polite and you're bringing in a lot of ill feelings for seemingly no reason.
posted by nadawi at 8:02 AM on September 25, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:02 AM on September 25, 2014 [7 favorites]
(By the way, if you really want to stop The Question, just look pained, turn aside, and whisper “miscarriage”.)
Are you serious? This is already an incredibly fucked up suggestion on its face, but the fact that you're a man who felt the need to comment specifically in order tell women to lie and claim they've lost a child in order to avoid being queried about our prospective plans for baby-making elevates it to a whole new level of wrong.
I'm a childfree woman with a number of friends who have gone through the heartbreak of miscarriage, and I can't imagine any situation in which it would be remotely appropriate to falsely claim their painful experiences as my own in an attempt to get people to stop asking me when I'm having kids.
The ludicrousness of this suggestion speaks mainly to the fact that you are biologically incapable of experiencing pregnancy or pregnancy loss. I'm sure that sounds harsh, but I'm totally blown away that anyone could ever earnestly suggest such a wildly offensive non-solution, especially considering it's meant to address a problem you will literally never experience yourself.
posted by divined by radio at 8:06 AM on September 25, 2014 [22 favorites]
Are you serious? This is already an incredibly fucked up suggestion on its face, but the fact that you're a man who felt the need to comment specifically in order tell women to lie and claim they've lost a child in order to avoid being queried about our prospective plans for baby-making elevates it to a whole new level of wrong.
I'm a childfree woman with a number of friends who have gone through the heartbreak of miscarriage, and I can't imagine any situation in which it would be remotely appropriate to falsely claim their painful experiences as my own in an attempt to get people to stop asking me when I'm having kids.
The ludicrousness of this suggestion speaks mainly to the fact that you are biologically incapable of experiencing pregnancy or pregnancy loss. I'm sure that sounds harsh, but I'm totally blown away that anyone could ever earnestly suggest such a wildly offensive non-solution, especially considering it's meant to address a problem you will literally never experience yourself.
posted by divined by radio at 8:06 AM on September 25, 2014 [22 favorites]
Like Brutus says in the play, "O, that a man might know the end of this day's business ere it come!" My mother wanted children. Always did. She threw herself into it heart and soul. She's the most maternal person I've ever met. All my life I've watched stray people of all ages gravitate toward her for mothering like steel shavings to a magnet. I know that she loves me more than life itself, even though I know my birth was due to contraceptive failure.
And yet, sometimes being born to a mother who loves and wants you, and so wants to devote her life to raising you, just isn't enough. It doesn't cancel out the abusive husband and father who's planning his exit, the gene pool riddled with life-altering heritable disorders, the mother's own chronic health issues, and the unstable support network. There couldn't BE anyone more mentally, emotionally, and temperamentally predisposed to motherhood than my mother, but when I hear the story about my grandmother's reaction to hearing she was carrying me - "You know... it's legal now. You don't HAVE to have another baby if you don't really WANT to." - all I can do is shrug and nod.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:14 AM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
And yet, sometimes being born to a mother who loves and wants you, and so wants to devote her life to raising you, just isn't enough. It doesn't cancel out the abusive husband and father who's planning his exit, the gene pool riddled with life-altering heritable disorders, the mother's own chronic health issues, and the unstable support network. There couldn't BE anyone more mentally, emotionally, and temperamentally predisposed to motherhood than my mother, but when I hear the story about my grandmother's reaction to hearing she was carrying me - "You know... it's legal now. You don't HAVE to have another baby if you don't really WANT to." - all I can do is shrug and nod.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:14 AM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
In dating advice on Metafilter, they always say to look out for people who don't have kids or like pets.
Wait who says this?
posted by phunniemee at 8:19 AM on September 25, 2014
Wait who says this?
posted by phunniemee at 8:19 AM on September 25, 2014
I feel like I've seen it in askme a couple of times but not within recent years. More like around the late 00s.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:05 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:05 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't know that I've seen AskMes that note dislike of children or pets as a red flag. I have seen cruelty or neglect of pets as a red flag; likewise "deadbeat" parents who don't take responsibility for the kids they already have (whether or not they have custody).
IMO, there's a HUGE difference between "doesn't want to be around kids or pets" and "having a child or pet and then ill-treating it" or "abuses pets or kids." I love cats, and have four of them, so if I were to partner or marry, anyone I choose has to like cats, because I'm not giving mine up, and I don't want to have them live with someone who doesn't like them. I don't want kids, and I don't even have nieces or nephews, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who was actively cruel to kids, because cruelty = bad character and definite red flag.
It's all YMMV if you want to take responsibility for a pet. I know people who don't, because they want to travel on a moment's notice, or have severe allergies, or just don't want the responsibility. OTOH, adopting a pet and then neglecting or abusing it is not acceptable to me.
And I've absolutely noticed that most women who don't want kids still go out of their way to say they are the Best! Aunt! EVAH! or they like to volunteer with kids. I think that if you're female-identified, even in the most progressive areas, you're expected to love kids no matter what.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:02 AM on September 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
IMO, there's a HUGE difference between "doesn't want to be around kids or pets" and "having a child or pet and then ill-treating it" or "abuses pets or kids." I love cats, and have four of them, so if I were to partner or marry, anyone I choose has to like cats, because I'm not giving mine up, and I don't want to have them live with someone who doesn't like them. I don't want kids, and I don't even have nieces or nephews, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who was actively cruel to kids, because cruelty = bad character and definite red flag.
It's all YMMV if you want to take responsibility for a pet. I know people who don't, because they want to travel on a moment's notice, or have severe allergies, or just don't want the responsibility. OTOH, adopting a pet and then neglecting or abusing it is not acceptable to me.
And I've absolutely noticed that most women who don't want kids still go out of their way to say they are the Best! Aunt! EVAH! or they like to volunteer with kids. I think that if you're female-identified, even in the most progressive areas, you're expected to love kids no matter what.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:02 AM on September 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
In dating advice on Metafilter, they always say to look out for people who don't have kids or like pets.
...and Zeus help you if you are middle-aged, no kids, no pets, AND never married. Everybody loooooooves to warn single daters against people like us. Let's see: apparently I have commitment issues; avoidance issues; intimacy issues; the list goes on.
Apparently, it doesn't occur to those myopic dopes that perhaps I know my own mind, and what makes me tick, and that perhaps this is a healthy, happy choice I opted into by design.
Haters gonna hate.
posted by nacho fries at 10:25 AM on September 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
...and Zeus help you if you are middle-aged, no kids, no pets, AND never married. Everybody loooooooves to warn single daters against people like us. Let's see: apparently I have commitment issues; avoidance issues; intimacy issues; the list goes on.
Apparently, it doesn't occur to those myopic dopes that perhaps I know my own mind, and what makes me tick, and that perhaps this is a healthy, happy choice I opted into by design.
Haters gonna hate.
posted by nacho fries at 10:25 AM on September 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
I've definitely seen "look out for people who don't like pets" advice relatively recently on Ask, though can't recall a particular thread. It sticks in my mind since my (much-nicer-than-animal-friendly-me) SO doesn't really like animals.
posted by ferret branca at 10:34 AM on September 25, 2014
posted by ferret branca at 10:34 AM on September 25, 2014
--It's not just what people think. Promotions and assignments go to "normal" people. A young woman with no kids or a married woman with no kids is not normal.
-Okay, I really want to hear more on this. I loved it when you said that promotions and assignments go to "normal" people, but I'm not so sure that the corporate world favors women with children.
We’ve all seen data that indicates that men are more likely to get promotions and important assignments than women, and that managers have given the reason that they’re afraid that a woman will be more distracted by childcare than a man (even a man with children). So, I think the question we’re looking for here is, “Is a woman with children more likely to get promotions and important assignments than another woman, without children?”
I’m not sure if there’s any data out there on this question, or where to look for it. But the anecdata from my own career tends to lean toward “yes.” Now, that could be because most of it has been spent in female-majority workplaces. Even when there’s been a man at the top of the ladder, most of the time my division or unit has been mostly staffed with women, with women in positions of leadership. Those women have been uniformly 35 or over, with children.
It’s like the old cliché that when the boss smokes, you have to take up smoking to get in on all the important conversations because they take place out at the smoking area. In this case, all the office socializing among the influential people takes place during conversations revolving around their children. If you don’t have children, you can either just sit and listen, talk about children in general, or talk about other people’s children. All three of those come off as pathetic at best and creepy at worst. Forget about company picnics, which are all organized around children’s activities.
Also, you just don’t get considered “our sort of people” by the office seniority, no matter how long you’ve been there. Subconsciously, you get lumped in with the twenty-year-old interns as Not a Real Grownup, a fribble, a lightweight, someone who gets delegated to. It’s expected you’ll stay late and do that work that’s been delegated to you while the Important People go home to the Truly Important Work of picking up their children, because all you and the twenty-year-old interns could possibly be doing is drinking and partying again, right?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:43 AM on September 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
-Okay, I really want to hear more on this. I loved it when you said that promotions and assignments go to "normal" people, but I'm not so sure that the corporate world favors women with children.
We’ve all seen data that indicates that men are more likely to get promotions and important assignments than women, and that managers have given the reason that they’re afraid that a woman will be more distracted by childcare than a man (even a man with children). So, I think the question we’re looking for here is, “Is a woman with children more likely to get promotions and important assignments than another woman, without children?”
I’m not sure if there’s any data out there on this question, or where to look for it. But the anecdata from my own career tends to lean toward “yes.” Now, that could be because most of it has been spent in female-majority workplaces. Even when there’s been a man at the top of the ladder, most of the time my division or unit has been mostly staffed with women, with women in positions of leadership. Those women have been uniformly 35 or over, with children.
It’s like the old cliché that when the boss smokes, you have to take up smoking to get in on all the important conversations because they take place out at the smoking area. In this case, all the office socializing among the influential people takes place during conversations revolving around their children. If you don’t have children, you can either just sit and listen, talk about children in general, or talk about other people’s children. All three of those come off as pathetic at best and creepy at worst. Forget about company picnics, which are all organized around children’s activities.
Also, you just don’t get considered “our sort of people” by the office seniority, no matter how long you’ve been there. Subconsciously, you get lumped in with the twenty-year-old interns as Not a Real Grownup, a fribble, a lightweight, someone who gets delegated to. It’s expected you’ll stay late and do that work that’s been delegated to you while the Important People go home to the Truly Important Work of picking up their children, because all you and the twenty-year-old interns could possibly be doing is drinking and partying again, right?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:43 AM on September 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
Subconsciously, you get lumped in with the twenty-year-old interns as Not a Real Grownup, a fribble, a lightweight, someone who gets delegated to. It’s expected you’ll stay late and do that work that’s been delegated to you while the Important People go home to the Truly Important Work of picking up their children, because all you and the twenty-year-old interns could possibly be doing is drinking and partying again, right?
Yep, yep. People don't know how to talk to you if you don't have children, and especially if you're single and don't have children. And they expect you to work all the time, on the grunt work. I just decided to go ahead and challenge this though, and talk about needing to get to gym classes like people talk about needing to get to school pickup.
Also, like you only need a raise if you have kids. Like, maybe I want to spend my raise on saving the orcas. If I deserve the raise I should have it.
posted by sweetkid at 10:49 AM on September 25, 2014 [8 favorites]
Yep, yep. People don't know how to talk to you if you don't have children, and especially if you're single and don't have children. And they expect you to work all the time, on the grunt work. I just decided to go ahead and challenge this though, and talk about needing to get to gym classes like people talk about needing to get to school pickup.
Also, like you only need a raise if you have kids. Like, maybe I want to spend my raise on saving the orcas. If I deserve the raise I should have it.
posted by sweetkid at 10:49 AM on September 25, 2014 [8 favorites]
I've definitely seen "look out for people who don't like pets" advice relatively recently on Ask
I remember it very specifically from a relationshipfilter question where the OP had a sick/elderly pet and the partner was like "lol just let it die who cares" (obvs paraphrasing yes) and everyone was like "this person is a monster basically".
posted by poffin boffin at 10:53 AM on September 25, 2014
I remember it very specifically from a relationshipfilter question where the OP had a sick/elderly pet and the partner was like "lol just let it die who cares" (obvs paraphrasing yes) and everyone was like "this person is a monster basically".
posted by poffin boffin at 10:53 AM on September 25, 2014
Yikes, that is monstrous-sounding, poffin boffin. I feel like I have seen it for more innocuous-seeming things too, like just that it's a sign of bad character to not like animals generally. Of course now I'm looking for a specific example, I can't find one.
----
Also, I have no pets, no kids, and I look young enough to be an intern (was mistaken for a high school one a few years back when I was well into my twenties)! I am never gonna get taken seriously in the workplace, yo.
posted by ferret branca at 11:02 AM on September 25, 2014
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Also, I have no pets, no kids, and I look young enough to be an intern (was mistaken for a high school one a few years back when I was well into my twenties)! I am never gonna get taken seriously in the workplace, yo.
posted by ferret branca at 11:02 AM on September 25, 2014
Of course he left out the fact that his decision means more money, more freedom, less anxiety over all for him, and that others will be left with the task of raising the coming generation he will need to do all those things a society needs younger people to do.
Are you saying if a decision has any positive results then it's automatically invalid? Would you prefer that I am a martyr and have a child against my will or that I have no children but live in a cave? That is a ridiculous argument. There are benefits to having children. the company, the fact that you belong to the parent club, the general joy of raising a child with your own philosophy of the world as basis. With your logic, those benefits would make the decision of having a child wrong, too. People who prefer the benefits of the second option have children. People who prefer the benefits of the first don't.
Someone else at great trouble and expense raised the generations that make up the doctors, dentists, plumbers, engineers, etc. and who pay for his social security. You’re welcome, indeed.
I'm sorry but that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The last thing in your mind when you choose to have children is social security. I happen to pay the social security of the older generations so I don't owe it to mine, too. Just like everyone else. Besides, by not having children, I am making the job market better for the future engineers and doctors so you are welcome, babies.
posted by Tarumba at 11:39 AM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
Are you saying if a decision has any positive results then it's automatically invalid? Would you prefer that I am a martyr and have a child against my will or that I have no children but live in a cave? That is a ridiculous argument. There are benefits to having children. the company, the fact that you belong to the parent club, the general joy of raising a child with your own philosophy of the world as basis. With your logic, those benefits would make the decision of having a child wrong, too. People who prefer the benefits of the second option have children. People who prefer the benefits of the first don't.
Someone else at great trouble and expense raised the generations that make up the doctors, dentists, plumbers, engineers, etc. and who pay for his social security. You’re welcome, indeed.
I'm sorry but that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The last thing in your mind when you choose to have children is social security. I happen to pay the social security of the older generations so I don't owe it to mine, too. Just like everyone else. Besides, by not having children, I am making the job market better for the future engineers and doctors so you are welcome, babies.
posted by Tarumba at 11:39 AM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
I'll add my voice to the "childfree" camp, being someone who has never felt the desire to have children. And no, in spite of being told many times to the contrary, I did not change my mind. In fact, I've come to accept that the desire itself is not a choice. You either have it or you don't, and I just didn't. It's very difficult to explain that to someone who has that ineffable drive. It's not universally innate, and no amount of arm twisting by others was ever going to change that lack of desire within me. Although I will say that witnessing legions of haggard parents struggling to control out of control toddlers and screaming babies helped reinforce it.
I did however have the choice to prevent having kids. I echo others comments in that I am so very glad (and privileged) to live in a time and a place where I had that choice. It deeply concerns me that those options are under threat ("Hobby Lobby" ruling, efforts by the religious right to outlaw birth control methods, etc). This is all part of the tremendous cultural pressure to promote (or perhaps rather, enforce) marriage and family, and that's certainly not the only form that pressure takes.
So, yes, that pressure does exist. For those of you feeling it, I hear you! When I was growing up, I always had this vision of myself going to college and becoming a successful career woman, while seemingly everyone else around me saw me getting married, having a gaggle of kids, and becoming a housewife. It was frustrating and dismissive. It's one of the many ways sexism rears it's ugly head and tries to hold women back from being fully themselves.
For those of you who are lamenting how difficult it can be to date when you know you don't want to have kids, I hear you! All of the guys I seriously dated either knew they wanted to have kids or were at least ambivalent about it. As far as I know, all of those guys (including the ambivalent ones) eventually got married and had kids. I would never hold someone back from that if they thought they might want to do it, so this was always a deal breaker. I will say that this is an easier decision from the man's perspective, because they are not the one who will be carrying the child for nine months, nor will they be bearing the brunt of most (if not all) of the child care.
For those of you who are having cultural fit issues at work because you don't have kids, well, I hear that too! In my case though, this is compounded by a homogenous work culture that's reenforced itself and allowed a clique to develop. If that's working against you, look for a job in a more diverse work environment. And hey, as there are more people realizing that it's ok to eschew marriage and family, there will be more people like you. Additionally, family friendly work policies are important but should never impinge on anyone else's work/life balance. If your workplace is being unfair to you in this way, time to look for a better one.
posted by jazzbaby at 12:16 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
I did however have the choice to prevent having kids. I echo others comments in that I am so very glad (and privileged) to live in a time and a place where I had that choice. It deeply concerns me that those options are under threat ("Hobby Lobby" ruling, efforts by the religious right to outlaw birth control methods, etc). This is all part of the tremendous cultural pressure to promote (or perhaps rather, enforce) marriage and family, and that's certainly not the only form that pressure takes.
So, yes, that pressure does exist. For those of you feeling it, I hear you! When I was growing up, I always had this vision of myself going to college and becoming a successful career woman, while seemingly everyone else around me saw me getting married, having a gaggle of kids, and becoming a housewife. It was frustrating and dismissive. It's one of the many ways sexism rears it's ugly head and tries to hold women back from being fully themselves.
For those of you who are lamenting how difficult it can be to date when you know you don't want to have kids, I hear you! All of the guys I seriously dated either knew they wanted to have kids or were at least ambivalent about it. As far as I know, all of those guys (including the ambivalent ones) eventually got married and had kids. I would never hold someone back from that if they thought they might want to do it, so this was always a deal breaker. I will say that this is an easier decision from the man's perspective, because they are not the one who will be carrying the child for nine months, nor will they be bearing the brunt of most (if not all) of the child care.
For those of you who are having cultural fit issues at work because you don't have kids, well, I hear that too! In my case though, this is compounded by a homogenous work culture that's reenforced itself and allowed a clique to develop. If that's working against you, look for a job in a more diverse work environment. And hey, as there are more people realizing that it's ok to eschew marriage and family, there will be more people like you. Additionally, family friendly work policies are important but should never impinge on anyone else's work/life balance. If your workplace is being unfair to you in this way, time to look for a better one.
posted by jazzbaby at 12:16 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
For those of you who are having cultural fit issues at work because you don't have kids, well, I hear that too! In my case though, this is compounded by a homogenous work culture that's reenforced itself and allowed a clique to develop. If that's working against you, look for a job in a more diverse work environment. And hey, as there are more people realizing that it's ok to eschew marriage and family, there will be more people like you. Additionally, family friendly work policies are important but should never impinge on anyone else's work/life balance. If your workplace is being unfair to you in this way, time to look for a better one.
Sometimes people are just talking/venting and not looking for point by point advice on how to change their situation.
posted by sweetkid at 12:21 PM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
Sometimes people are just talking/venting and not looking for point by point advice on how to change their situation.
posted by sweetkid at 12:21 PM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
zardoz: "In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce--any pressure felt is going to be your own internal voice telling you what to do."
That's funny. Whenever I hear about child-free people talking about times they were strongly urged to have kids, it always came across as coming from people who regretted having offspring and wanted more people to join their club of misery.
That said, I love being a dad and I think it's the most awesome, most transformative thing that happened in my entire life. But I've always liked kids, and my wife and I both wanted kids. Now that we know how challenging they are, we're sticking with one. But what a one.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:26 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
That's funny. Whenever I hear about child-free people talking about times they were strongly urged to have kids, it always came across as coming from people who regretted having offspring and wanted more people to join their club of misery.
That said, I love being a dad and I think it's the most awesome, most transformative thing that happened in my entire life. But I've always liked kids, and my wife and I both wanted kids. Now that we know how challenging they are, we're sticking with one. But what a one.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:26 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
but any pressure triggered from that is, again, internal; what I think my social group and society as a whole expects of me.
In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce--any pressure felt is going to be your own internal voice telling you what to do. In other words, it sounds really whiny and victim-y
How is social pressure not external pressure?
Also, I reject the notion that just talking about cultural pressures and things that happen to you in your life and sharing experiences is whiny or victimy. It's a really annoying accusation and comes up constantly.
It's very empowering to be able to discuss a topic.
posted by sweetkid at 7:33 AM on September 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
In other words, I reject this notion that there is all this external pressure to reproduce--any pressure felt is going to be your own internal voice telling you what to do. In other words, it sounds really whiny and victim-y
How is social pressure not external pressure?
Also, I reject the notion that just talking about cultural pressures and things that happen to you in your life and sharing experiences is whiny or victimy. It's a really annoying accusation and comes up constantly.
It's very empowering to be able to discuss a topic.
posted by sweetkid at 7:33 AM on September 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
It's also a negative if you're going to need to be "flexible" or travel significantly. Women can't do that once they have kids, duh, or they're a bad mother and suspect for that reason. It's also somewhat clear that women make less after having children.
Yeah, among the newish mothers I know (who run the gamut in terms of work experiences, from 100% SAHM to WAHM to working moms with SAH husbands to two-income families with kiddos in FT daycare), this is a constant running discussion. Who is returning to work, what the drawbacks are to either choice, feeling guilt either way for either not contributing financially or not being there for the teeny baby years, feeling pulled in a thousand directions. And I think it's simply really rankly different for men during the infant years, with even very feminist men rarely caught in the same maelstrom.
I'm lucky in so many ways, but even with my very flexible work, motherhood imposes limits, and getting book publicists to really understand "my baby is entirely breastfed and doesn't take a bottle so I can't travel overnight without her and even for day trips I need a room and time to pump" has been really hard. I'm happy with my choices, and I love my life with my baby, but motherhood has created some interesting conundrums that I hadn't even considered in my babyfree years.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:17 AM on September 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, among the newish mothers I know (who run the gamut in terms of work experiences, from 100% SAHM to WAHM to working moms with SAH husbands to two-income families with kiddos in FT daycare), this is a constant running discussion. Who is returning to work, what the drawbacks are to either choice, feeling guilt either way for either not contributing financially or not being there for the teeny baby years, feeling pulled in a thousand directions. And I think it's simply really rankly different for men during the infant years, with even very feminist men rarely caught in the same maelstrom.
I'm lucky in so many ways, but even with my very flexible work, motherhood imposes limits, and getting book publicists to really understand "my baby is entirely breastfed and doesn't take a bottle so I can't travel overnight without her and even for day trips I need a room and time to pump" has been really hard. I'm happy with my choices, and I love my life with my baby, but motherhood has created some interesting conundrums that I hadn't even considered in my babyfree years.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:17 AM on September 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Sometimes people are just talking/venting and not looking for point by point advice on how to change their situation.
Exactly; kitcat said she wanted to hear more, so I told her more. Simple as that.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:27 AM on September 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Exactly; kitcat said she wanted to hear more, so I told her more. Simple as that.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:27 AM on September 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
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We couldn't have kids, came to terms with it and having enough suits us just fine. We have a good life, filled with love, family, friends and cat hair.
posted by arcticseal at 7:21 PM on September 23, 2014 [26 favorites]