Massive Pro-Democracy Protests in Hong Kong
September 28, 2014 1:48 PM Subscribe
"Hong Kong police have used tear gas to disperse thousands of pro-democracy protesters near the government complex, after a week of escalating tensions." Hong Kong: Tear gas and clashes at democracy protest. Hong Kong's unprecedented protests and police crackdown, explained. South China Morning Post Topics: Occupy Central [Paywall after a few free articles]. Occupy Central with Love and Peace is on Twitter, and there is a live thread on Reddit.
I taught English in Guangzhou, a few hours away, and my trips to HK were always a breath of fresh air. I have nothing but respect for the people of Hong Kong and I hope they succeed in their fight for a government they deserve, and I hope against hope it happens with as violence as possible.
posted by Rinku at 1:54 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Rinku at 1:54 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I grew up in Hong Kong, and have been watching this eagerly. I think reform of some kind is inevitable at this stage, but I'm also not convinced it will come immediately. It's incredibly heartening to see pretty much peaceful protests of this scale.
posted by Dysk at 2:00 PM on September 28, 2014
posted by Dysk at 2:00 PM on September 28, 2014
I think reform of some kind is inevitable at this stage
If you mean pro-democracy reform, I'm not so sure. I don't think anyone other than the people of Hong Kong has the wherewithal to truly confront the Chinese government over this, and the stakes for the Party are high. They are terrified of something like this propagating to the mainland and have a real incentive to crack down.
If you mean the sort of "reform" China is currently proposing, I agree.
posted by eugenen at 2:09 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you mean pro-democracy reform, I'm not so sure. I don't think anyone other than the people of Hong Kong has the wherewithal to truly confront the Chinese government over this, and the stakes for the Party are high. They are terrified of something like this propagating to the mainland and have a real incentive to crack down.
If you mean the sort of "reform" China is currently proposing, I agree.
posted by eugenen at 2:09 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think that as we see in the United States, democracy (or republican democracy) is such a flawed way of governing, and yet, these young people should absolutely choose who makes the laws in Hong Kong. It's funny to me how the US makes such a fuss about democracy in the Middle East, but in Asia we don't do a thing.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:29 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:29 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Data point: my father-in-law was born and raised in Hong Kong. He says that he has no patience for either side. He's convinced that that Occupy protestors are funded by the US. I wonder how widespread that feeling is.
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:57 PM on September 28, 2014
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:57 PM on September 28, 2014
I live in Hong Kong and went to the protests when they were in Admiralty yesterday afternoon and evening to drop off supplies for protestors.
I have never seen anything like this here - thousands and thousands of unarmed peaceful protestors - some as young as 13! - chanting and clapping...and then tear gas.
The Hong Kong Police have previously had, in the minds of most HK people, a comparatively good reputation, so these tactics were truly shocking and brought more people out. Today will be interesting as it's a normal work day and I expect there will be more effort to keep the streets clear.
The Education Bureau has cancelled all classes in the Central and Western and Wan Chai districts this morning and the teachers' union has called a strike; school is normally only cancelled like this if there's a typhoon approaching.
I'll be back out this afternoon to drop off more supplies after a bit more sleep.
A few links -
A long essay on why these protests are so important; this piece galvanized my support for the movement
The kind of law HK people are afraid a rubber-stamp parliament and pro-Beijing system will bring back - were this in force Occupy Central would have never happened
Hong Wrong, which has a non-corporate/conglomorate news blog; the main guy tweets @tomgrundy
RTHK, Hong Kong's public beoadcasting service; Radio 3 is in English and is available as a livestream
There's much more happening on Facebook and Twitter but much of it is in Cantonese, which I can't read.
On preview, Hong Kong has quite loose rules on political party funding - in fact, political parties are regulated like businesses here under the Companies Ordinance - so while Occupy (which is not a political party) may very well be getting some money from people abroad (not that I know, but it is possible) it would not surprise me if the pro-Beijing DAB party were getting a monthly check from the Chinese Communist Party too.
Even the independence of the judiciary is under threat; recent statements have surfaced about how Beijing wants judges here to have to be "patriotic", whatever that means.
posted by mdonley at 3:15 PM on September 28, 2014 [34 favorites]
I have never seen anything like this here - thousands and thousands of unarmed peaceful protestors - some as young as 13! - chanting and clapping...and then tear gas.
The Hong Kong Police have previously had, in the minds of most HK people, a comparatively good reputation, so these tactics were truly shocking and brought more people out. Today will be interesting as it's a normal work day and I expect there will be more effort to keep the streets clear.
The Education Bureau has cancelled all classes in the Central and Western and Wan Chai districts this morning and the teachers' union has called a strike; school is normally only cancelled like this if there's a typhoon approaching.
I'll be back out this afternoon to drop off more supplies after a bit more sleep.
A few links -
A long essay on why these protests are so important; this piece galvanized my support for the movement
The kind of law HK people are afraid a rubber-stamp parliament and pro-Beijing system will bring back - were this in force Occupy Central would have never happened
Hong Wrong, which has a non-corporate/conglomorate news blog; the main guy tweets @tomgrundy
RTHK, Hong Kong's public beoadcasting service; Radio 3 is in English and is available as a livestream
There's much more happening on Facebook and Twitter but much of it is in Cantonese, which I can't read.
On preview, Hong Kong has quite loose rules on political party funding - in fact, political parties are regulated like businesses here under the Companies Ordinance - so while Occupy (which is not a political party) may very well be getting some money from people abroad (not that I know, but it is possible) it would not surprise me if the pro-Beijing DAB party were getting a monthly check from the Chinese Communist Party too.
Even the independence of the judiciary is under threat; recent statements have surfaced about how Beijing wants judges here to have to be "patriotic", whatever that means.
posted by mdonley at 3:15 PM on September 28, 2014 [34 favorites]
Data point: my father-in-law was born and raised in Hong Kong. He says that he has no patience for either side. He's convinced that that Occupy protestors are funded by the US. I wonder how widespread that feeling is.
Not at all among my colleagues, who are mostly younger folks currently in the US or Canada- they're very, very pro the protesters (and judging by various likes on their comments, so are their other friends).
posted by damayanti at 3:46 PM on September 28, 2014
Not at all among my colleagues, who are mostly younger folks currently in the US or Canada- they're very, very pro the protesters (and judging by various likes on their comments, so are their other friends).
posted by damayanti at 3:46 PM on September 28, 2014
Protest has a long history of success in China, so this will surely result in change.
posted by rr at 3:48 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by rr at 3:48 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
The easiest way to undercut protest movements is to accuse them of being foreign-funded. It doesn't surprise me that this accusation is flying around, although I am disappointed that some HK people seem to be so gullible as to accept it.
The CCP never admits wrongdoing, so there's no out here for China. Crushing protest is the only option. Anything else will be seen as weakness and encouraging others to rebel. China cares far more about control than it does about preserving HK's status. They'd sooner flood the territory with settlers and wipe out local institutions than allow real suffrage.
posted by 1adam12 at 4:15 PM on September 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
The CCP never admits wrongdoing, so there's no out here for China. Crushing protest is the only option. Anything else will be seen as weakness and encouraging others to rebel. China cares far more about control than it does about preserving HK's status. They'd sooner flood the territory with settlers and wipe out local institutions than allow real suffrage.
posted by 1adam12 at 4:15 PM on September 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
I don't know why the Chinese government doesn't just promote Hong Kong political leaders up the ranks of the party and start copying the Hong Kong political system into the rest of the country.
The Chinese system now is much closer to the corrupt free-for-all (amoral, corrupt) capitalism of the pre-Communist Chiang Kai Shek that the Communists fought a major war against and defeated, and the Hong Kong government is certainly more of a 'government of the people'. It is time for the Chinese officials to do some self-criticism and correction.
I have to admit that if I were writing this in China, it would be considered major trolling.
posted by eye of newt at 4:15 PM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
The Chinese system now is much closer to the corrupt free-for-all (amoral, corrupt) capitalism of the pre-Communist Chiang Kai Shek that the Communists fought a major war against and defeated, and the Hong Kong government is certainly more of a 'government of the people'. It is time for the Chinese officials to do some self-criticism and correction.
I have to admit that if I were writing this in China, it would be considered major trolling.
posted by eye of newt at 4:15 PM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
rr, I sense you're being sarcastic but, despite June 4th, protest--particularly student protest--actually does have a long history of success in China, from the Boxer Rebellion to the May 4th Movement onward. That's why Beijing is so frightened of it and why they crack down so hard.
posted by mono blanco at 4:16 PM on September 28, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by mono blanco at 4:16 PM on September 28, 2014 [6 favorites]
If by mean HK government, you mean the administration and not the technocrats, then no, they're not the government of the people. This is exactly why Occupy Central exists -- the election committee is a sham.
The current CCP is getting alarmingly like the Mao era, the whole cult of personality and the purges. There had been hopes that Xi may be a reformer (especially being so PR savvy) but Beijing remains heavy-handed on HK political affairs.
posted by tksh at 4:33 PM on September 28, 2014
The current CCP is getting alarmingly like the Mao era, the whole cult of personality and the purges. There had been hopes that Xi may be a reformer (especially being so PR savvy) but Beijing remains heavy-handed on HK political affairs.
posted by tksh at 4:33 PM on September 28, 2014
Hong Kongers don't seem to buy the "foreign instigators" narrative so far. Nevertheless, this is one description that is being pushed by the central government's mouthpieces, because of course it is. That is almost-literally always what happens in anti-government protests. It's an easy attack that sometimes makes people skip over thinking about the merits of a movement. I might actually argue that it doesn't matter if they are funded by foreigners or not. though I would seriously doubt that they are. Protesters aren't going out to be arrested because they are expecting to make cash.
Angela Davis's Communist Party USA was partly funded by the USSR. This doesn't mean that Angela Davis was a fake or a foreigner. Your views of Communism should probably be informed by something else than which foreigners support it.
Regarding the Chinese government, there is sometimes a belief that it is slowly but inevitably moving towards becoming a liberalism. This actually does not appear to be the case and in areas such as judicial independence and rule and law it is actually quite a bit more authoritarian than it was in the 90s. However, world values survey data shows that people seem to be just fine with this on the mainland and actually rate central government institutions quite highly compared to most other countries and China a decade ago. I wouldn't expect too much sympathy for HK from the outside population.
posted by Winnemac at 4:49 PM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
Angela Davis's Communist Party USA was partly funded by the USSR. This doesn't mean that Angela Davis was a fake or a foreigner. Your views of Communism should probably be informed by something else than which foreigners support it.
Regarding the Chinese government, there is sometimes a belief that it is slowly but inevitably moving towards becoming a liberalism. This actually does not appear to be the case and in areas such as judicial independence and rule and law it is actually quite a bit more authoritarian than it was in the 90s. However, world values survey data shows that people seem to be just fine with this on the mainland and actually rate central government institutions quite highly compared to most other countries and China a decade ago. I wouldn't expect too much sympathy for HK from the outside population.
posted by Winnemac at 4:49 PM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
The WSJ has a good slideshow of the protesters. They're so young.
There are a few ways this could all play out.
1. Eventually the protesters (after some weeks) realise that they aren't going to get what they want and end the protests. However an entire generation of Hong Kong students is radicalised, and reinvigorates the democracy movement.
2. Beijing flips out and sends in the troops. That would mean the end of "one country, two systems".
3. Beijing backs down and allows direct elections. I really don't think this would happen.
4. Beijing forces the HK govt to acknowledge the unhealthy grip the cartels have over the territory and introduce structural reforms relating to land supply, competition, housing prices, overcrowding caused by mainland tourism. This might work.
In the end I think it will be a combination of 1. & 4.
posted by awfurby at 5:13 PM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
There are a few ways this could all play out.
1. Eventually the protesters (after some weeks) realise that they aren't going to get what they want and end the protests. However an entire generation of Hong Kong students is radicalised, and reinvigorates the democracy movement.
2. Beijing flips out and sends in the troops. That would mean the end of "one country, two systems".
3. Beijing backs down and allows direct elections. I really don't think this would happen.
4. Beijing forces the HK govt to acknowledge the unhealthy grip the cartels have over the territory and introduce structural reforms relating to land supply, competition, housing prices, overcrowding caused by mainland tourism. This might work.
In the end I think it will be a combination of 1. & 4.
posted by awfurby at 5:13 PM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
I am being sarcastic and if the two examples you're going to cite are respectively nearly 100 years ago and over 100 years ago you might want to re-consider their relevance. The modern Chinese government has approximately zero to do with the governments of that era. It is an ongoing mistake of the left and the young that things from a century ago will still work despite the many, many opportunities that have been made available to them to learn otherwise.
posted by rr at 5:41 PM on September 28, 2014
posted by rr at 5:41 PM on September 28, 2014
I heard they did a "hands up don't shoot" chant in Hong Kong. I love to see the various global protest movements supporting each other.
@awfan: 别射！我们是举起双手来散步的！》@1n5ur3c7 #Ferguson to #HongKong The people are rising! pic.twitter.com/zwmbArQzVE #MikeBrown #OccupyCentral #HandsUpDontShoot
posted by Golden Eternity at 5:58 PM on September 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
@awfan: 别射！我们是举起双手来散步的！》@1n5ur3c7 #Ferguson to #HongKong The people are rising! pic.twitter.com/zwmbArQzVE #MikeBrown #OccupyCentral #HandsUpDontShoot
posted by Golden Eternity at 5:58 PM on September 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
I attended a private all male boarding school in Canada in the late 80s, early 90s. It was in the midst of the Asian immigrant influx that had transformed Vancouver into 'Hongcouver' where, it was whispered, that a great number of upper middle class Hong Kong residents were coming in to keep Vancouver has a 'nuclear option' if the 1997 handover to China went poorly.
I had many classmates who were these male scions of relatively prosperous white collar families of Hong Kong Chinese doctors, import/export traders and bankers. In our sophomore year, we watched from afar as the Tiananmen massacre happened. It was terrible, and I remember that we talked about how terrible it was, but we never really pried too deeply with our friends about it, because while I knew that my friends were scared about what it implied for their future, it was all too vague and abstract a future for us to grasp at 14.
We graduated, and went on to attend university in the US and Canada. Harvard, Brown, McGill. And all of them, to a man, went back to Hong Kong one year before handover. There were promises, and hope, and they still had families back there. Those friends of mine pursued their own professional lives, learning to live in the new world of Chinese Hong Kong.
I visited them two years ago, when the specter of Moral and National Education hung over the decisions of where they were going to send their kids to school. We had talked about the possibilities of international schools. About the possibilities of moving back to Canada, of pulling the nuclear option. But they chose to stay, and to support the Scholarism protests that erupted a few weeks later.
And now I woke this morning to seeing my social feeds ablaze with Asian news of these protests, and seeing my high school friends, now grown men in their 40's posting updates from their volunteer spots at medical tents, letting their families know that they're ok.
I think of us watching the Tiananmen Massacre as boys, and I don't think I would've imagined this fate for any of them, but I hope that they do themselves and their fellow citizens proud.
posted by bl1nk at 7:00 PM on September 28, 2014 [44 favorites]
I had many classmates who were these male scions of relatively prosperous white collar families of Hong Kong Chinese doctors, import/export traders and bankers. In our sophomore year, we watched from afar as the Tiananmen massacre happened. It was terrible, and I remember that we talked about how terrible it was, but we never really pried too deeply with our friends about it, because while I knew that my friends were scared about what it implied for their future, it was all too vague and abstract a future for us to grasp at 14.
We graduated, and went on to attend university in the US and Canada. Harvard, Brown, McGill. And all of them, to a man, went back to Hong Kong one year before handover. There were promises, and hope, and they still had families back there. Those friends of mine pursued their own professional lives, learning to live in the new world of Chinese Hong Kong.
I visited them two years ago, when the specter of Moral and National Education hung over the decisions of where they were going to send their kids to school. We had talked about the possibilities of international schools. About the possibilities of moving back to Canada, of pulling the nuclear option. But they chose to stay, and to support the Scholarism protests that erupted a few weeks later.
And now I woke this morning to seeing my social feeds ablaze with Asian news of these protests, and seeing my high school friends, now grown men in their 40's posting updates from their volunteer spots at medical tents, letting their families know that they're ok.
I think of us watching the Tiananmen Massacre as boys, and I don't think I would've imagined this fate for any of them, but I hope that they do themselves and their fellow citizens proud.
posted by bl1nk at 7:00 PM on September 28, 2014 [44 favorites]
Thanks Bwithh, the video at the bottom of the article (an interview with Joshua Wong -- a high school student who is one of the leaders of the democracy movement) is inspiring and well worth the watch.
posted by chapps at 10:33 PM on September 28, 2014
posted by chapps at 10:33 PM on September 28, 2014
Just getting home after dropping supplies at the Admiralty and Causeway Bay sites, which each had multiple emergency stations staffed by medical students and even AEDs. At the moment they are overflowing with supplies but there is no trust in the police and the demonstrators seem very prepared for a longer protest than, I am sure, the government would like.
The normal police were without hats/glasses/helmets and the few riot police I saw were only in Admiralty and in threes blocking the entrance to the bridge over Connaught Road that leads to LegCo and Tamar Park.
The thing I took away is this: this is very very very not even close to over.
posted by mdonley at 11:54 PM on September 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
The normal police were without hats/glasses/helmets and the few riot police I saw were only in Admiralty and in threes blocking the entrance to the bridge over Connaught Road that leads to LegCo and Tamar Park.
The thing I took away is this: this is very very very not even close to over.
posted by mdonley at 11:54 PM on September 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
Re: 'foreign instigators' the only ones I've seen evidence for are trying to influence events on behalf of Beijing:
... Ernst & Young LLP, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Deloitte LLP and KPMG LLP published a half-page Chinese-language advertisement in the local press Friday voicing concerns about the Occupy Central movement.
Personally, I'm disgusted to see these western affiliates openly identify as pro-Beijing/anti-democracy.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 12:09 AM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
... Ernst & Young LLP, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Deloitte LLP and KPMG LLP published a half-page Chinese-language advertisement in the local press Friday voicing concerns about the Occupy Central movement.
Personally, I'm disgusted to see these western affiliates openly identify as pro-Beijing/anti-democracy.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 12:09 AM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
They're openly identifying as not wanting a massive disruptive force on their doorstep, possibly blocking access to their offices. Sure, this privileges business as usual over the issue at hand here, but I'm not convinced it should be seen as necessarily aligning themselves with Beijing.
posted by Dysk at 12:21 AM on September 29, 2014
posted by Dysk at 12:21 AM on September 29, 2014
Beijing is causing the disruption every bit as much as Occupy by removing HKers promised democratic channels for expression. Yet it's escaped criticism by the Big Four accounting firms.
Protesters in the west routinely get told by the establishment to restrict their actions to influencing elections. Now when democratic elections are removed, they're told to just "dialogue." That's not neutral, that's plunking down for authoritarianism.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 12:35 AM on September 29, 2014 [4 favorites]
Protesters in the west routinely get told by the establishment to restrict their actions to influencing elections. Now when democratic elections are removed, they're told to just "dialogue." That's not neutral, that's plunking down for authoritarianism.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 12:35 AM on September 29, 2014 [4 favorites]
Immediate cause vs. root cause. The establishment is not preventing bankers from getting to work, the protesters are.
Like, I don't really disagree with you, but it's also a little disingenuous to suggest that the government is as directly responsible for the disruption as the people causing the disruption.
posted by Dysk at 12:57 AM on September 29, 2014
Like, I don't really disagree with you, but it's also a little disingenuous to suggest that the government is as directly responsible for the disruption as the people causing the disruption.
posted by Dysk at 12:57 AM on September 29, 2014
It's interesting that the split in public opinion is so close. I wonder if that represents actual ground truth, or if the data has been manipulated in some way. My intuition is that, to borrow a phrase, the tighter Beijing tries to grasp Hong Kong, the more people will slip through their fingers.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:12 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 1:12 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Polychora, that's a great summary for those new to the issues. One thing I would correct, however, is the suggestion that the PRC brought in the concept of the nominating committee as a prereq for universal suffrage election for the CE only in the White Paper. In fact, Art. 45 of the Basic Law says the exact same thing.
The problem is, of course, how exactly one should interpret "broadly representative" - the proposed model under the White Paper is actually even worse than the election committee that elected CY, since it increases the threshold for nomination from 150 to 200. That's the core issue - Beijing is actually going backwards on the issue rather than forwards.
Pan-democrats had hoped for a lowered threshold (since the threshold is not stated within the Basic Law), rather than elimination of the nominating committee entirely. A sufficiently low enough nomination threshold to stand for election as CE would have ensured that pan-democratic candidates could have been nominated by the pan-democratic LegCo members directly elected from the geographic constituencies that are part of nominating committee; in contrast, the increased nomination threshold basically ensures they will never get on the ballot.
posted by modernnomad at 2:34 AM on September 29, 2014 [10 favorites]
The problem is, of course, how exactly one should interpret "broadly representative" - the proposed model under the White Paper is actually even worse than the election committee that elected CY, since it increases the threshold for nomination from 150 to 200. That's the core issue - Beijing is actually going backwards on the issue rather than forwards.
Pan-democrats had hoped for a lowered threshold (since the threshold is not stated within the Basic Law), rather than elimination of the nominating committee entirely. A sufficiently low enough nomination threshold to stand for election as CE would have ensured that pan-democratic candidates could have been nominated by the pan-democratic LegCo members directly elected from the geographic constituencies that are part of nominating committee; in contrast, the increased nomination threshold basically ensures they will never get on the ballot.
posted by modernnomad at 2:34 AM on September 29, 2014 [10 favorites]
Is there anything stopping China from sending PLA troops across the border to do what the Hong Kong police refuse to do (i.e., crush the protests 1989-style), and following that, dismissing “one country two systems” as a mistake not to be mentioned again? It's not like the rest of the world could hit them with economic sanctions. Financial markets may suffer for a while, but if Beijing makes promises of playing nice with big corporations (whilst ensuring a lack of disruption), they could recover soon enough.
posted by acb at 2:36 AM on September 29, 2014
posted by acb at 2:36 AM on September 29, 2014
You underestimate the economic impact - tanks on the streets here and you'd see expat finance and law types fleeing in droves, along with huge numbers of middle and upper class locals who have acquired citizenship overseas for just such an emergency...
Politically, sending in the PLA would also doom the mainland's chances of a peaceful reunification with Taiwan.
China has much to lose by backing down now (eg allowing full/free elections for the CE may provoke other restive regions to demand the same), but it also has much to lose by cracking down in an overly aggressive way.
China plays a long game - I expect they will seek out a facesaving solution (perhaps including the resignation of CY Leung), and continue to marginalize HK's democratic elements until 2047, when all bets are off and they're not bound by the Basic Law to do anything in particular.
posted by modernnomad at 2:47 AM on September 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
Politically, sending in the PLA would also doom the mainland's chances of a peaceful reunification with Taiwan.
China has much to lose by backing down now (eg allowing full/free elections for the CE may provoke other restive regions to demand the same), but it also has much to lose by cracking down in an overly aggressive way.
China plays a long game - I expect they will seek out a facesaving solution (perhaps including the resignation of CY Leung), and continue to marginalize HK's democratic elements until 2047, when all bets are off and they're not bound by the Basic Law to do anything in particular.
posted by modernnomad at 2:47 AM on September 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
owever, world values survey data shows that people seem to be just fine with this on the mainland and actually rate central government institutions quite highly compared to most other countries and China a decade ago.
My understanding is that this is driven by the 'stability-orientated', eye-of-Sauron like qualities of the central government - namely that whilst the quotidian concerns of your average citizen doesn't bother it overmuch, anything that threatens CCP stability and control (and profit) does. Clumsy and over-reaching malfeasance by local officials calls undue attention to corruption and sparks hundreds if not thousands of protests every year, and thus gets cracked down on in highly visible, morale boosting ways.
Additionally, I would suggest that the central government has a wonderful capacity to turn a blind eye if not actively encourage corruption when it's going well, and then dumping a bucket of shit on local officials and calling them out as 'rogues' when it goes poorly. E.G the language around Bo Xilai (though I acknowledge there is more to it than that).
Godspeed to the people of Hong Kong. Their belief and commitment to democracy is an inspiration to us all.
posted by smoke at 4:09 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
My understanding is that this is driven by the 'stability-orientated', eye-of-Sauron like qualities of the central government - namely that whilst the quotidian concerns of your average citizen doesn't bother it overmuch, anything that threatens CCP stability and control (and profit) does. Clumsy and over-reaching malfeasance by local officials calls undue attention to corruption and sparks hundreds if not thousands of protests every year, and thus gets cracked down on in highly visible, morale boosting ways.
Additionally, I would suggest that the central government has a wonderful capacity to turn a blind eye if not actively encourage corruption when it's going well, and then dumping a bucket of shit on local officials and calling them out as 'rogues' when it goes poorly. E.G the language around Bo Xilai (though I acknowledge there is more to it than that).
Godspeed to the people of Hong Kong. Their belief and commitment to democracy is an inspiration to us all.
posted by smoke at 4:09 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
mdonley that was a terrific, inspiring essay. Thank you for sharing it.
posted by smoke at 4:18 AM on September 29, 2014
posted by smoke at 4:18 AM on September 29, 2014
I was on vacation at the start of the year in Hong Kong when the occupy people organised a march. I went down to check it out - it isn't everyday you get to march against communism this century.
I don't speak Chinese, but many of the occupy protestors were young, highly educated people with fluent English. They had nuance in their explanations to me, an outsider there for only a few days, of the political situation. I point that out not from paternalism, but from the lack of deeper understanding and sloganeering I am familiar with in mass protests at home.
The occupy people are in a strange relationship with the mainstream opposition parties, to the point that occupy was pulling out of elections and disengaging from traditional politics, judging it beyond redemption.
The mainstream democrats were a bit torn. They were enlivened by the occupy energy, but felt that working for change within the system had the greatest chance of success.
The conservatives were a bit angry. They were disdainful of the occupy tactics, and characterised them as anarchists and irresponsible agitators.
The mainstream on both sides skewed older, but all groups had a big range of ages. I got the impression that the older population doesn't want to rock the boat that has be fairly lucrative for them, but I did meet some older people who are supporting reform as moral choice, even though they concede it has risks.
I can confirm western funding of the protests, as I donated to everyone who was protesting in a civilised fashion and bought a bunch of T-shirts. How cool to support nascent democracy.
The wildcard I didn't expect was the Falun Dafa movement. Their drilled marchers were highly disciplined and in large numbers. Their beef is obviously regarding the ability to practice their faith on the mainland, but it highlighted to me there were zealots in numbers as part of their group - not that I saw anything untoward, but I suspect they will end up having influence in how this all falls out just by dint of their discipline and organisational abilities.
And the HK police were efficient and polite to tourists anyway. They were there is numbers, erected steel barricades along the street and closed roads to traffic. They parked dozens of metal grill clad mini buses in the side streets for transport. There was certainly no violence, and not really any confrontation. The police seemed more concerned with keeping order and safety than the political stuff.
posted by bystander at 4:38 AM on September 29, 2014
I don't speak Chinese, but many of the occupy protestors were young, highly educated people with fluent English. They had nuance in their explanations to me, an outsider there for only a few days, of the political situation. I point that out not from paternalism, but from the lack of deeper understanding and sloganeering I am familiar with in mass protests at home.
The occupy people are in a strange relationship with the mainstream opposition parties, to the point that occupy was pulling out of elections and disengaging from traditional politics, judging it beyond redemption.
The mainstream democrats were a bit torn. They were enlivened by the occupy energy, but felt that working for change within the system had the greatest chance of success.
The conservatives were a bit angry. They were disdainful of the occupy tactics, and characterised them as anarchists and irresponsible agitators.
The mainstream on both sides skewed older, but all groups had a big range of ages. I got the impression that the older population doesn't want to rock the boat that has be fairly lucrative for them, but I did meet some older people who are supporting reform as moral choice, even though they concede it has risks.
I can confirm western funding of the protests, as I donated to everyone who was protesting in a civilised fashion and bought a bunch of T-shirts. How cool to support nascent democracy.
The wildcard I didn't expect was the Falun Dafa movement. Their drilled marchers were highly disciplined and in large numbers. Their beef is obviously regarding the ability to practice their faith on the mainland, but it highlighted to me there were zealots in numbers as part of their group - not that I saw anything untoward, but I suspect they will end up having influence in how this all falls out just by dint of their discipline and organisational abilities.
And the HK police were efficient and polite to tourists anyway. They were there is numbers, erected steel barricades along the street and closed roads to traffic. They parked dozens of metal grill clad mini buses in the side streets for transport. There was certainly no violence, and not really any confrontation. The police seemed more concerned with keeping order and safety than the political stuff.
posted by bystander at 4:38 AM on September 29, 2014
acb: There's already a PLA garrison in HK but I don't think they have tanks, at least not in any meaningful number. They do have armoured carriers though.
My two cents is that for CY to call-in PLA troops to quell the protests, it will be like invoking the nuclear option -- all pretence of two systems will be of no more. Agree with modernnomad that this will roll-back all their gains with TW in the past few years. The CCP has been heavy handed on the issue (and I think it's partly from Xi trying to out-hardline the hardliners on nationalistic issues) but I don't think they're stupid. They're just not particularly good at walking on the line between explicit control and implicit control, they err on the explicit too often.
But having said that, as long as the US and UK stay out of it I'm hopeful this will be resolved within HK. CY gets sacked, the election committee stays, the nominating threshold is lowered, more talks with the pan-democrats are held, and the CCP will try to slip-in their controls at a later date through subtler means.
posted by tksh at 5:38 AM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
My two cents is that for CY to call-in PLA troops to quell the protests, it will be like invoking the nuclear option -- all pretence of two systems will be of no more. Agree with modernnomad that this will roll-back all their gains with TW in the past few years. The CCP has been heavy handed on the issue (and I think it's partly from Xi trying to out-hardline the hardliners on nationalistic issues) but I don't think they're stupid. They're just not particularly good at walking on the line between explicit control and implicit control, they err on the explicit too often.
But having said that, as long as the US and UK stay out of it I'm hopeful this will be resolved within HK. CY gets sacked, the election committee stays, the nominating threshold is lowered, more talks with the pan-democrats are held, and the CCP will try to slip-in their controls at a later date through subtler means.
posted by tksh at 5:38 AM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
The wildcard I didn't expect was the Falun Dafa movement.
They're at pretty much every pro-democracy march in Hong Kong, or at least were when I was living there. It's easy to forget that their presence might seem weird to people not familiar with Hong Kong.
posted by Dysk at 6:09 AM on September 29, 2014
They're at pretty much every pro-democracy march in Hong Kong, or at least were when I was living there. It's easy to forget that their presence might seem weird to people not familiar with Hong Kong.
posted by Dysk at 6:09 AM on September 29, 2014
Agree with modernnomad that this will roll-back all their gains with TW in the past few years.
OTOH, if that happened and hardliners in Beijing demanded that the “secessionist rebel elements” in Taiwan surrendered or faced the consequences, possibly engaging in some gunboat diplomacy, it may cause Taiwan to crack and negotiate the terms of surrender. Unlike during the Cold War, America is in hock to China and dependent on cheap Chinese manufacturing, and may not be willing to back up Taiwan with the threat of consequences up to and including nuclear war. Taiwan's alliance with the UK may be no more tenable than Britain's permanent possession of Hong Kong was.
posted by acb at 6:28 AM on September 29, 2014
OTOH, if that happened and hardliners in Beijing demanded that the “secessionist rebel elements” in Taiwan surrendered or faced the consequences, possibly engaging in some gunboat diplomacy, it may cause Taiwan to crack and negotiate the terms of surrender. Unlike during the Cold War, America is in hock to China and dependent on cheap Chinese manufacturing, and may not be willing to back up Taiwan with the threat of consequences up to and including nuclear war. Taiwan's alliance with the UK may be no more tenable than Britain's permanent possession of Hong Kong was.
posted by acb at 6:28 AM on September 29, 2014
I heard they did a "hands up don't shoot" chant in Hong Kong.
This chant has always sounded weird to me. "Hands up" is an existing idiom in American English, as an imperative meaning you get your hands up, not as a description of my hands being up. I mean, I get it, but it still sounds odd.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:17 AM on September 29, 2014
This chant has always sounded weird to me. "Hands up" is an existing idiom in American English, as an imperative meaning you get your hands up, not as a description of my hands being up. I mean, I get it, but it still sounds odd.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:17 AM on September 29, 2014
Thanks for this post and the awesome discussion herein.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:32 AM on September 29, 2014
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:32 AM on September 29, 2014
acb: Yeah, I have no idea about that. I don't think even Ma would ever just roll over but the economic ties are strong. Clinton made a defence pact with Taiwan back in the 90s I believe so I'm guessing China would be largely reduced to using economic avenues rather than militia if they wanted to steamroll Taiwan.
And that Reddit live feed is great. Raw and unverified but great. Seems like everyone's very conscious of maintaining the calm and peaceful aspect of the protests. Don't provoke the police, self-police suspicious behaviour (ie. inciting violence), legal tips, etc.
posted by tksh at 9:15 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
And that Reddit live feed is great. Raw and unverified but great. Seems like everyone's very conscious of maintaining the calm and peaceful aspect of the protests. Don't provoke the police, self-police suspicious behaviour (ie. inciting violence), legal tips, etc.
posted by tksh at 9:15 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
The the non-violent, positive spirit of the protest is inspiring.
Interesting, but not very convincing, pro-mainland viewpoint: Hong Kong's Democrats Should Accept the NPC’s Election Plan. Oh my gosh - the comments
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:54 AM on September 29, 2014
Interesting, but not very convincing, pro-mainland viewpoint: Hong Kong's Democrats Should Accept the NPC’s Election Plan. Oh my gosh - the comments
posted by Golden Eternity at 9:54 AM on September 29, 2014
The wildcard I didn't expect was the Falun Dafa movement. Their drilled marchers were highly disciplined and in large numbers. Their beef is obviously regarding the ability to practice their faith on the mainland, but it highlighted to me there were zealots in numbers as part of their group - not that I saw anything untoward, but I suspect they will end up having influence in how this all falls out just by dint of their discipline and organisational abilities.
I could have this all wrong, so someone correct me if I do, but I got the impression in a modern Chinese history class that the Chinese government's crackdown on the Falun Dafa was a pretty direct result of what happened at Tienanmen Square. Basically, the government had a choice at Tienanmen between violence and acquiescing to peoples' demands- it was too serious to just ignore any longer. They really came pretty close to winning. So after that, the government saw any large organization making demands on them as a direct threat to be dealt with by force. (I'm also told that this, rather than any moral or religious objections, has been the reason for limits placed on LGBT groups. It's not the group's message, it's the mere fact that a group has organized around a cause.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:27 AM on September 29, 2014
I could have this all wrong, so someone correct me if I do, but I got the impression in a modern Chinese history class that the Chinese government's crackdown on the Falun Dafa was a pretty direct result of what happened at Tienanmen Square. Basically, the government had a choice at Tienanmen between violence and acquiescing to peoples' demands- it was too serious to just ignore any longer. They really came pretty close to winning. So after that, the government saw any large organization making demands on them as a direct threat to be dealt with by force. (I'm also told that this, rather than any moral or religious objections, has been the reason for limits placed on LGBT groups. It's not the group's message, it's the mere fact that a group has organized around a cause.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:27 AM on September 29, 2014
I think the lesson that the Chinese government drew from Tiananmen was that you better have plenty of tear gas, rubber bullets, pepper spray and fire-hoses in your major cities, so that protests can be quelled according to international best practices instead of resorting to live ammo (which turns out to be terrible PR)
posted by moorooka at 12:00 PM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by moorooka at 12:00 PM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
mono blanco: rr, I sense you're being sarcastic but, despite June 4th, protest--particularly student protest--actually does have a long history of success in China, from the Boxer Rebellion to the May 4th Movement onward.In what sense was the Boxer Rebellion successful? My schooling on the matter was that it was a protest against the opium "enslavement" by the British government, and was brutally defeated. It weakened the existing dynasty, but at that point, they were a British hegemony anyway, and that continued.
Enlighten me if I have that all wrong, please.
posted by IAmBroom at 12:37 PM on September 29, 2014
it's very interesting to watch the reddit live feed and see the protest struggling with similar issues I remember from the US-based Occupy events - mostly 1) the high potential for misinformation and logistics of handling lots of people under potential stress, and 2) the cops waiting until ~4 or 5am to attempt to clear out the protestors in the early morning hours.
as much as i've moved on from being a reddit fan, that live feed feature is really neat and in this case the main contributors are very devoted to what they are doing- getting the correct info out there, quashing rumors, and not letting it simply become a soapbox for the loudest. it's great.
posted by ghostbikes at 12:59 PM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
as much as i've moved on from being a reddit fan, that live feed feature is really neat and in this case the main contributors are very devoted to what they are doing- getting the correct info out there, quashing rumors, and not letting it simply become a soapbox for the loudest. it's great.
posted by ghostbikes at 12:59 PM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Images of Hong Kong's protests are being suppressed on the internet in mainland China, and 100,000 people in Hong Kong have joined a new social network that operates "off-the-grid".
posted by homunculus at 2:50 PM on September 29, 2014
posted by homunculus at 2:50 PM on September 29, 2014
China's decision to expel journalists to Hong Kong is now blowing up in its face
posted by cendawanita at 7:04 PM on September 29, 2014
posted by cendawanita at 7:04 PM on September 29, 2014
Fewer people on the streets this morning, though tomorrow is a national holiday so numbers may increase again overnight...
Police apparently under instruction from top levels to be 'friendly' and to 'joke around' with protestors; no riot gear in sight.
Suspect leadership has decided best approach is to see if it melts away after protestors have proved their point. They probably expect a hardcore group will remain, but the bulk are not going to be on the streets for more than a few days.
posted by modernnomad at 7:19 PM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
Police apparently under instruction from top levels to be 'friendly' and to 'joke around' with protestors; no riot gear in sight.
Suspect leadership has decided best approach is to see if it melts away after protestors have proved their point. They probably expect a hardcore group will remain, but the bulk are not going to be on the streets for more than a few days.
posted by modernnomad at 7:19 PM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
CY Leung just gave a 15 minute speech saying he wouldn't resign. He called for the Occupy Central leaders to "keep their word" about ending the protest when it started to get out of control, but reiterated there was no chance of HK calling in the PLA.
posted by modernnomad at 8:14 PM on September 29, 2014
posted by modernnomad at 8:14 PM on September 29, 2014
A Turning Point in the Fight for Hong Kong: Beijing remains unlikely to cave to pro-democracy protesters' demands, but it is now losing hearts and minds.
posted by homunculus at 8:55 PM on September 29, 2014
posted by homunculus at 8:55 PM on September 29, 2014
South China Morning Post has (paywall-free) LIVE UPDATES link on its front page...
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:29 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:29 AM on September 30, 2014
Massive thunderstorm just started here in Central. Looks like the umbrellas are coming back out, but thankfully in a different context...
posted by modernnomad at 4:37 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by modernnomad at 4:37 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Chinese Web Censors Struggle With Hong Kong Protest
posted by homunculus at 10:19 PM on September 30, 2014
posted by homunculus at 10:19 PM on September 30, 2014
OpenGuarden's mesh networking app FireChat is being recommended by student leaders in the Hong Kong protests out of fear authorities may shut off communications, presumably China can still spy on FireChat metadata and content though.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:47 PM on October 1, 2014
posted by jeffburdges at 3:47 PM on October 1, 2014
Black versus Yellow long essay on history of Hong Kong protest and political assessment of current protest factions
Amnesty International: Women and girls attacked as police fail to protect peaceful protesters
Daughter of Hong Kong Chief Enrages The Public With Taunting Posting Over Her Diamond Bracelet And “All My Beautiful Shoes and Dresses and Clutches”
Time: Anti-Occupy Mob Trashes Hong Kong Protest Site
NPR: Hong Kong Protesters Call Off Talks After Mobs Attack Their Camps
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:27 PM on October 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Amnesty International: Women and girls attacked as police fail to protect peaceful protesters
Daughter of Hong Kong Chief Enrages The Public With Taunting Posting Over Her Diamond Bracelet And “All My Beautiful Shoes and Dresses and Clutches”
Time: Anti-Occupy Mob Trashes Hong Kong Protest Site
NPR: Hong Kong Protesters Call Off Talks After Mobs Attack Their Camps
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:27 PM on October 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Big Picture photoessay: Hong Kong protesters refuse to leave
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:33 PM on October 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:33 PM on October 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Noisy Pink Bubbles... Many thanks for the links, most especially Black versus Yellow.
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:34 PM on October 3, 2014
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:34 PM on October 3, 2014
Jacobin: Expanding the Umbrella Revolution
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:20 AM on October 4, 2014
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:20 AM on October 4, 2014
@byAlanWong: "Support Hong Kong's fight for freedom!" Democracy advocates in Guangzhou taken away after posting this: @weiquanwang
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:31 PM on October 4, 2014
posted by Golden Eternity at 2:31 PM on October 4, 2014
Hong Kong legislator says government using triads against protesters
posted by homunculus at 5:10 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 5:10 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Jacobin: Hong Kong Protests FAQ (More accurate title: Interview with Hong Kong leftist)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:06 AM on October 5, 2014
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:06 AM on October 5, 2014
Apparently the Brits were toying with the idea of granting Hong Kong self-rule in the 50s but rejected the idea because the Chinese threatened to invade if they did so.
posted by crazy with stars at 4:08 PM on October 12, 2014
posted by crazy with stars at 4:08 PM on October 12, 2014
Pro-Democracy Websites In Hong Kong Targeted With and Serving Malware
posted by homunculus at 10:13 AM on October 14, 2014
posted by homunculus at 10:13 AM on October 14, 2014
Hong Kong: violence flares again as protesters reoccupy streets. Police make 26 arrests during clashes in Mongkok district but are forced into partial retreat by protesters
posted by homunculus at 9:25 AM on October 18, 2014
posted by homunculus at 9:25 AM on October 18, 2014
Hong Kong’s pro-democracy lawmakers are about to “Occupy” the government
posted by homunculus at 9:27 AM on October 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 9:27 AM on October 18, 2014 [1 favorite]
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posted by arcticseal at 1:52 PM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]