“If we don’t work, we die.” Excellent!
October 8, 2014 12:08 AM Subscribe
Tour the mega-slum Dharavi, one of the most materially deprived places on earth, transformed by TED-like pundits into a "most inspiring economic model" that gels quite well with their vision of a world without public aid and guarantees to needy.
Yep, Dharavi is the future of Capitalism, coming soon to a metropolis near you.
"Ending poverty was once an international goal." Now it is an international joke.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:39 AM on October 8, 2014 [8 favorites]
"Ending poverty was once an international goal." Now it is an international joke.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:39 AM on October 8, 2014 [8 favorites]
Thanks for posting this.
posted by threeants at 12:40 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by threeants at 12:40 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Good article, although it doesn't even get into the misery of living with constant crime and the very real threat of police death squads 'cleansing' your paltry existence altogether.
Mike Davis's well-known Planet of Slums is an excellent read on the subject.
posted by colie at 12:41 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Mike Davis's well-known Planet of Slums is an excellent read on the subject.
posted by colie at 12:41 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
The one that really opened my eyes to the fact that that particular strain of self-serving ideological justification even existed was, of all things, a Kevin McLeod documentary (yt Ep1, Ep2).
It's probably less outright offensive than some of the examples in the article (having not read/seen them), but it's still got more than a dash of "magic poor people" about it. And with a definite 'it may be brown and stinking, but could point the way to reclaiming the green and pleasant land of our past" thread running through it.
It's probably less outright offensive than some of the examples in the article (having not read/seen them), but it's still got more than a dash of "magic poor people" about it. And with a definite 'it may be brown and stinking, but could point the way to reclaiming the green and pleasant land of our past" thread running through it.
"Meanwhile, as the social observer Robert Neuwirth points out, a billion people currently live in slum conditions. That’s a sixth or so of the world’s population. By 2050 it will be three billion, a third. If you want to know what the worldwide city of tomorrow is, Dharavi is it."posted by Pinback at 12:54 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's like a Soviet agitprop version of capitalist views made real.
posted by jaduncan at 12:59 AM on October 8, 2014 [23 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 12:59 AM on October 8, 2014 [23 favorites]
Fantastic, poverty tourism, I remain amazed at the new ways I can be disgusted by my fellow man.
posted by arcticseal at 1:18 AM on October 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by arcticseal at 1:18 AM on October 8, 2014 [4 favorites]
In case that's not clear, I'm referring to breathless journalists raving about magic poor people.
posted by arcticseal at 1:21 AM on October 8, 2014
posted by arcticseal at 1:21 AM on October 8, 2014
Burns: "International communism had thwarted my earlier attempt to take candy from a baby. But with it out of the picture, I was free to wallow in my own crapulence."
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:43 AM on October 8, 2014 [15 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:43 AM on October 8, 2014 [15 favorites]
Is this another one of those Free Market wonderlands where, somehow, no Free Market enthusiast wants to live?
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:44 AM on October 8, 2014 [14 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:44 AM on October 8, 2014 [14 favorites]
Take a good look at your own future.
...that's the real point of many of the articles; selling everyone on the New Poverty that awaits most of us. Yay, aspirational slums! Horatio Alger Mark II!
You can only be happy in a slum; being rich is tedium and suffering, morally empty. Thank God every day you don't have to experience it. It's just terrible, really.
posted by aramaic at 1:44 AM on October 8, 2014 [17 favorites]
...that's the real point of many of the articles; selling everyone on the New Poverty that awaits most of us. Yay, aspirational slums! Horatio Alger Mark II!
You can only be happy in a slum; being rich is tedium and suffering, morally empty. Thank God every day you don't have to experience it. It's just terrible, really.
posted by aramaic at 1:44 AM on October 8, 2014 [17 favorites]
This is why I'm careful to only compliment people richer than me.
posted by michaelh at 2:11 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by michaelh at 2:11 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Recently finished Behind the Beautiful Forevers which is astonishingly well written and doesn't sugarcoat the misery of slum life. Kinda glad it isn't mentioned here.
posted by fungible at 3:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by fungible at 3:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Quoth the article from the book: "...many thousands have prospered through a mixture of hard work, some luck and a great deal of ingenuity..."
According to the author, pure luck is needed in order to succeed. Even in the slums, one does not simply make his or her own way without the assistance of anyone and without the burden of outside forces.
posted by fireoyster at 3:56 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
According to the author, pure luck is needed in order to succeed. Even in the slums, one does not simply make his or her own way without the assistance of anyone and without the burden of outside forces.
posted by fireoyster at 3:56 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Any word on what taxi drivers are saying about this?
posted by thelonius at 4:06 AM on October 8, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 4:06 AM on October 8, 2014 [8 favorites]
Even in the slums, one does not simply make his or her own way without the assistance of anyone and without the burden of outside forces.
Perhaps especially in the slums.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:31 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Perhaps especially in the slums.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:31 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
I came to this article knowing very little about the district and, other than that a guy at the Baffler thinks it's a shithole and that some other people have tried to champion parts of it, I know just as little for having read it.
posted by jpe at 4:32 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by jpe at 4:32 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well I learned that it's got 1 toilet per thousand people.
The article is mainly about attitudes towards poverty rather than the actual slum anyway.
posted by colie at 4:37 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
The article is mainly about attitudes towards poverty rather than the actual slum anyway.
posted by colie at 4:37 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
If polished turds were gold, we'd all be rich.
Anyone who buys into any of this "logic" is as certifiable as the idiots pushing it. There is absolutely nothing noble, necessary, or desirable in people toiling their lives away in poverty.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 5:02 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Anyone who buys into any of this "logic" is as certifiable as the idiots pushing it. There is absolutely nothing noble, necessary, or desirable in people toiling their lives away in poverty.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 5:02 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Struggle for Survival ≠ Entrepreneurial Spirit
posted by vivekspace at 5:07 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by vivekspace at 5:07 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Even if the pundits get their way and eliminating condescension becomes more important than eliminating poverty, it seems there will always be one acceptable way to look down on a slum: from the penthouse suite.
Thing is, eliminating condescension is a part of eliminating poverty. The latter being something the author seems to have no ideas about, really. He's just concerned how tasteless it is to hail slum inhabitants, even when they themselves seem less interested in eliciting pity from Westerners. This strikes me as a kind of First World snobbery that likes to view a narrative on terms that don't necessarily jibe with the actual people he seems to be so concerned about.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:24 AM on October 8, 2014
Thing is, eliminating condescension is a part of eliminating poverty. The latter being something the author seems to have no ideas about, really. He's just concerned how tasteless it is to hail slum inhabitants, even when they themselves seem less interested in eliciting pity from Westerners. This strikes me as a kind of First World snobbery that likes to view a narrative on terms that don't necessarily jibe with the actual people he seems to be so concerned about.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:24 AM on October 8, 2014
so, on the one hand you have pundit-personalities feeding a triumph-over-adversity story to the capital class at the top of the food-chain, and on the other you have an outrage-journalist feeding his no less voracious, although less successful, 'progressive' professionals audience after his globe spanning new urbanist architecture book deal.
or how about:
posted by ennui.bz at 5:24 AM on October 8, 2014
"...it took decades of the British airlifting Gothic structures into Mumbai before Indian architects created their own tropical Art Deco vision for the city in the 1920s and 1930s. Right now, only two decades into reglobalization, it’s still too soon for similarly interesting and appropriate styles to take root. But from talking to the younger generation of architects in Mumbai, I’m hopeful that they will."Such fascinating styles.
or how about:
Shanghai operated with a hybrid pidgin language that has left fragments in colloquial English today, including the phrases “chop chop” and “no can do.” I think there’s something deeply just about meeting one another in a cosmopolitan city on a kind of neutral linguistic ground. Shanghainese pidgin died out with the Cultural Revolution, and today the reglobalizing city is opting for a nationally standardized Mandarin as its primary language, with English as its quasi-official second language. Having English proficiency is one of the criteria that determine if a Chinese citizen can legally move from her birthplace to Shanghai. Sadly, I don’t think Shanghainese pidgin is coming back.Get to work, Metafilter, "chop chop," remember, if we don't work, we sit at home scrolling down the screen...
posted by ennui.bz at 5:24 AM on October 8, 2014
I'm going to steal a contrarian take from Jane Jacobs and argue that this valorization of slums is at least a step in the right direction from demonizing them as blight. When they're seen as blight, planners have no compunctions about knocking half the buildings down to build freeways through the middle of them, instantly destroying webs of relationships and trade that are keeping thousands sane and optimistic and alive. When they're seen as blight, the residents are seen as blight, too, fungal rot to be disrupted and dispersed.
I know there are plenty of Jane Jacobs fans here, and this should at least make you think twice about the issue. Thinking about slums as hives of entrepreneurs who are gradually carving out ways to make their lives better is a clear step in the right direction. There's an undeniable grain of truth to it, even if it's not the whole truth. And if you're concerned about the lack of municipal services (as you should be), this is also a step in the right political direction: Now that the slums are seen as a hive of busy bees instead of fungal rot, they're more likely to be seen as an important political constituency to be listened to. Now that slashing up their neighbourhoods with freeways is seen as a bad thing, people in the slums will be able to build the network of relationships needed to create that political voice and demand their rights to clean water and effective sewage.
In short: It's not the best view of the slums, but it's better than the previous default.
posted by clawsoon at 5:27 AM on October 8, 2014 [16 favorites]
I know there are plenty of Jane Jacobs fans here, and this should at least make you think twice about the issue. Thinking about slums as hives of entrepreneurs who are gradually carving out ways to make their lives better is a clear step in the right direction. There's an undeniable grain of truth to it, even if it's not the whole truth. And if you're concerned about the lack of municipal services (as you should be), this is also a step in the right political direction: Now that the slums are seen as a hive of busy bees instead of fungal rot, they're more likely to be seen as an important political constituency to be listened to. Now that slashing up their neighbourhoods with freeways is seen as a bad thing, people in the slums will be able to build the network of relationships needed to create that political voice and demand their rights to clean water and effective sewage.
In short: It's not the best view of the slums, but it's better than the previous default.
posted by clawsoon at 5:27 AM on October 8, 2014 [16 favorites]
When I was in nicaragua, I was talking to some local, middle class university students in Leon, and after one girl at the table got tired of the pretense of not understanding english so she could stop listening to my awful attempts at spanish, we had an interesting conversation. She was true blue socialist, and her cousin, also at the table was a gay conservative, taking MBA classes from visiting Harvard professors, and they were arguing about how he was just learning how to exploit the working classes. I said something about how it seemed like everyone in nicaragua was a 'natural entrepreneur'. Everyone seemed to have a business, or a side business or something to sell you, and she looked at me like I was a fool and said something about how they were all trying desperately to sell something because they needed food for their families, not because they were just good at it, or because they enjoyed doing it.
They definitely seemed like they were enjoying life, though, and studies show that the poorest countries in the world are often the happiest. I wonder if there is something about the complete futility of attempting to rising far beyond ones station in life that relieves anxiety and stress.
I'm not saying that slums or poverty are a good thing at all, I'm just trying to explain how someone could visit people that are living in abject poverty and envy them in some way. I've spent a lot of time visiting mayan families, a lot of them living as subsistence farmers, and their happiness and good humor is infectious. They get up everyday, collect food from their own land, maybe sell some Horchata at a roadside stand and spend all day with their families, most of whom live near by, often three or four generations. They know all their neighbors, etc. They don't have a lot of stuff like safe running water, but they also don't have bosses or a commute.
It's really easy to see that, even live among them for a while and think, man what I wouldn't give to live like that--a simple, honest life, especially if you have a passport and can leave whenever you want. It takes a while before the lack of safety and security wears on you, and you realize how much simple things like clean water and getting a decent education or medical costs them, and so on. If they get sick, they just die, or become crippled or go blind. Their kids grow up to be five feet tall at best because of malnutrition and parasites, etc..
I don't know where I'm really going with this, except to say that I know from first hand experience how seeing the lives of people living in something close to abject poverty up close can be inspiring. Their lives are full and meaningful and enjoyable in ways that are essential impossible for middle class people to experience in a lot of cases. It's easy to envy some aspects of it while glossing over the downsides.
posted by empath at 5:30 AM on October 8, 2014 [18 favorites]
They definitely seemed like they were enjoying life, though, and studies show that the poorest countries in the world are often the happiest. I wonder if there is something about the complete futility of attempting to rising far beyond ones station in life that relieves anxiety and stress.
I'm not saying that slums or poverty are a good thing at all, I'm just trying to explain how someone could visit people that are living in abject poverty and envy them in some way. I've spent a lot of time visiting mayan families, a lot of them living as subsistence farmers, and their happiness and good humor is infectious. They get up everyday, collect food from their own land, maybe sell some Horchata at a roadside stand and spend all day with their families, most of whom live near by, often three or four generations. They know all their neighbors, etc. They don't have a lot of stuff like safe running water, but they also don't have bosses or a commute.
It's really easy to see that, even live among them for a while and think, man what I wouldn't give to live like that--a simple, honest life, especially if you have a passport and can leave whenever you want. It takes a while before the lack of safety and security wears on you, and you realize how much simple things like clean water and getting a decent education or medical costs them, and so on. If they get sick, they just die, or become crippled or go blind. Their kids grow up to be five feet tall at best because of malnutrition and parasites, etc..
I don't know where I'm really going with this, except to say that I know from first hand experience how seeing the lives of people living in something close to abject poverty up close can be inspiring. Their lives are full and meaningful and enjoyable in ways that are essential impossible for middle class people to experience in a lot of cases. It's easy to envy some aspects of it while glossing over the downsides.
posted by empath at 5:30 AM on October 8, 2014 [18 favorites]
Now that the slums are seen as a hive of busy bees instead of fungal rot
But the article made it clear that the worship of entrepreneurs is always in reality the worship of 'entrepreneurs whose energy is unencumbered by regulation or state intervention'.
Apart from sanitation, crime plus insecurity of tenure is probably the biggest problem these people face, and dealing with that involves a fully functioning state apparatus. Which is anathema to TED-inflected 'entrepreneur worship.'
Most of the micro-businesses listed in the article were not only unsafe places to work but were probably also paying protection racket fees to local criminals and officials while fending off theft.
posted by colie at 5:38 AM on October 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
But the article made it clear that the worship of entrepreneurs is always in reality the worship of 'entrepreneurs whose energy is unencumbered by regulation or state intervention'.
Apart from sanitation, crime plus insecurity of tenure is probably the biggest problem these people face, and dealing with that involves a fully functioning state apparatus. Which is anathema to TED-inflected 'entrepreneur worship.'
Most of the micro-businesses listed in the article were not only unsafe places to work but were probably also paying protection racket fees to local criminals and officials while fending off theft.
posted by colie at 5:38 AM on October 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
I met my Be The Local sherpa in a downtown railway station. Dressed in a form-fitting blue T-shirt and jeans and sporting hip, lozenge-shaped specs, the twenty-one-year-old cut the figure of a young man on his way up.
Good read, but this passage irked me. The word "Sherpa" refers to an ethnic group, and is not a synonym for tour guide, right?
posted by GrapeApiary at 5:42 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Good read, but this passage irked me. The word "Sherpa" refers to an ethnic group, and is not a synonym for tour guide, right?
posted by GrapeApiary at 5:42 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also, if anyone here is planning on going to the yucatan for vacation and wants an opportunity to deliver some food to local mayan families, Memail me and I can direct you to a very socially active Bed and Breakfast near chichen itza that's very active with charity work. It's kind of poverty tourism, I think, to visit these people in their homes while delivering the food, but you don't need to take pictures or anything with them if you don't want to. If you know some spanish, it can be an eye opening experience to see how the extremely poor live, and talk with them. It's not the same as living int the community for a whole and volunteering, but it's something you can do to help at least one needy family while you're on your expensive beach vacation.
posted by empath at 5:52 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 5:52 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
"jell"
posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:57 AM on October 8, 2014
posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:57 AM on October 8, 2014
In case that's not clear, I'm referring to breathless journalists raving about magic poor people.
Manic Magic Pixie Poverty-stricken Dream Deprivation Girls Ghettos?
posted by wenestvedt at 5:57 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by wenestvedt at 5:57 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
If polished turds were gold, we'd all be rich.
Frankly, at one toilet per 1000 people, if polished turds were gold, this would be the place to set up your entrepreneurial turd-polishing mine. I mean, that's just logic.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:04 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Frankly, at one toilet per 1000 people, if polished turds were gold, this would be the place to set up your entrepreneurial turd-polishing mine. I mean, that's just logic.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:04 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
The argument that most of you are making - that they're not "entrepreneurs", they're simply survivors - is probably made best by Poor Economics*. As it points out, the only real alternative which provides enough wealth in a poor nation to build all the necessary social services is large factories.
(*Winner of the 2011 Financial Times/Goldman Sachs Best Business Book of the Year Award.)
posted by clawsoon at 6:04 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
(*Winner of the 2011 Financial Times/Goldman Sachs Best Business Book of the Year Award.)
posted by clawsoon at 6:04 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
"Is widespread, abject poverty tragic, or delightful? Surely the truth is somewhere in the middle." <-- the vibe I'm getting from commenters who want to draw an equivalence between the Baffler author and the TED-types he criticizes
posted by edheil at 6:12 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by edheil at 6:12 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
What's a "TED-like pundit"? TED is only mentioned once in the piece, as a throw-away part of the excoriation of Stewart Brand (who, you know, we seem to talk about a lot).
I'm a little confused by all the TED hate lately, honestly.
posted by DoubtingThomas at 6:16 AM on October 8, 2014
I'm a little confused by all the TED hate lately, honestly.
posted by DoubtingThomas at 6:16 AM on October 8, 2014
I guess a TED-like pundit is one who is breathlessly enthusiastic about what they honestly believe to be a challenging idea, but which in reality is usually an endorsement of the status quo that makes use of a novel vocabulary to sidestep the examination of political power. Isn't it all just one up from Thomas Friedman?
posted by colie at 6:27 AM on October 8, 2014 [28 favorites]
posted by colie at 6:27 AM on October 8, 2014 [28 favorites]
I think it's tragic, but I think it's important to understand that poor people are human beings who are often living complete, fulfilled lives. The extremely poor are often happier than their middle class counterparts. I don't think it's fair to them to attribute that to false consciousness.
posted by empath at 6:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 6:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
empath: The extremely poor are often happier than their middle class counterparts.
But they also die younger - soon after birth, all too often - which has to count for something.
posted by clawsoon at 6:47 AM on October 8, 2014
But they also die younger - soon after birth, all too often - which has to count for something.
posted by clawsoon at 6:47 AM on October 8, 2014
I think it's tragic, but I think it's important to understand that poor people are human beings who are often living complete, fulfilled lives. The extremely poor are often happier than their middle class counterparts. I don't think it's fair to them to attribute that to false consciousness.
I don't know. People who say things like this don't really seem in any hurry to trade places.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 6:49 AM on October 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
I don't know. People who say things like this don't really seem in any hurry to trade places.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 6:49 AM on October 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
The extremely poor are often happier than their middle class counterparts.
I have family who fall into this category.
They do not seem to be notably full of espièglerie, what with the untreated medical conditions and the limited life choices and the grinding hopelessness. They do seem to be quite good at finding alcohol and drugs, though. That might give the illusion of happiness, I suppose.
posted by winna at 7:07 AM on October 8, 2014 [6 favorites]
I have family who fall into this category.
They do not seem to be notably full of espièglerie, what with the untreated medical conditions and the limited life choices and the grinding hopelessness. They do seem to be quite good at finding alcohol and drugs, though. That might give the illusion of happiness, I suppose.
posted by winna at 7:07 AM on October 8, 2014 [6 favorites]
@Dick_Florida:
"I can't believe Detroit is filing for bankruptcy! - a liberal six months ago
Wow, it's so great that Detroit is bankrupt! - a liberal today"
posted by jimmythefish at 7:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
"I can't believe Detroit is filing for bankruptcy! - a liberal six months ago
Wow, it's so great that Detroit is bankrupt! - a liberal today"
posted by jimmythefish at 7:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
alcohol and drugs, though. That might give the illusion of happiness
I think he's talking about community. Though if you're American, I'd understand not recognizing it at first glance.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think he's talking about community. Though if you're American, I'd understand not recognizing it at first glance.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
I don't know. People who say things like this don't really seem in any hurry to trade places.
People who think that poor people are living fulfilling, complete, happy lives? Do you think they aren't? Do you think the ones that report being happy are lying or kidding themselves?
Whether your life is worthwhile and fulfilling has very little to do with how much money you earn. Especially in the developing world where you have communities that support each other, and almost everyone around you is as poor as you are, I think.
posted by empath at 7:47 AM on October 8, 2014
People who think that poor people are living fulfilling, complete, happy lives? Do you think they aren't? Do you think the ones that report being happy are lying or kidding themselves?
Whether your life is worthwhile and fulfilling has very little to do with how much money you earn. Especially in the developing world where you have communities that support each other, and almost everyone around you is as poor as you are, I think.
posted by empath at 7:47 AM on October 8, 2014
I am ok with the idea that a) people who are considerably poorer/live more on the edge than your standard Western white person are perfectly capable of being happy despite deprivation, and b) that doesn't mean they wouldn't also enjoy having healthcare, clean water, and education. Living in a tight-knit community has benefits. There is no reason people can't have both.
I would also assume that if I were a visitor in the home of a person living in a poor community, that they are being hospitable and are not inclined to tell me all of their problems or reveal all of their struggles to me, because human beings have pride and don't enjoy being pitied, as a rule. So therefore, I should not assume that the surface I am seeing is actually the whole truth for them everyday.
posted by emjaybee at 8:00 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
I would also assume that if I were a visitor in the home of a person living in a poor community, that they are being hospitable and are not inclined to tell me all of their problems or reveal all of their struggles to me, because human beings have pride and don't enjoy being pitied, as a rule. So therefore, I should not assume that the surface I am seeing is actually the whole truth for them everyday.
posted by emjaybee at 8:00 AM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
empath, that Happy Planet Index is not an index of happiness. Not not not. It's an index of happiness efficiency. If you have lots of stuff and are moderately happy, you'll score lower on that index than if you have no stuff and are moderately miserable.
posted by clawsoon at 8:02 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 8:02 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
People who think that poor people are living fulfilling, complete, happy lives? Do you think they aren't? Do you think the ones that report being happy are lying or kidding themselves?
People are often happy in middle income countries like Nicaragua despite being relatively poor, people in the very poorest countries a lot less so.
Note that countries like Mexico and Argentina are green but most of sub-Saharan Africa is red.
posted by atrazine at 8:02 AM on October 8, 2014
People are often happy in middle income countries like Nicaragua despite being relatively poor, people in the very poorest countries a lot less so.
Note that countries like Mexico and Argentina are green but most of sub-Saharan Africa is red.
posted by atrazine at 8:02 AM on October 8, 2014
...more on the Happy Planet Index: If you change the map colours on the page empath linked to, using the "Colour by" dropdown, to "Experienced well-being", you'll immediately see that rich Western countries are the happiest, and poor African countries are the most miserable.
posted by clawsoon at 8:04 AM on October 8, 2014
posted by clawsoon at 8:04 AM on October 8, 2014
I sometimes say conservatives and libertarians see the huge slums of the world and say, "Why can't we have that here?" I thought I was exaggerating a bit.
When they're seen as blight, planners have no compunctions about knocking half the buildings down to build freeways through the middle of them, instantly destroying webs of relationships and trade that are keeping thousands sane and optimistic and alive.
No, they'll have no compunction about building those freeways, because those industrious entrepreneurs will just create new hives of industriousness.
And if you're concerned about the lack of municipal services (as you should be), this is also a step in the right political direction: Now that the slums are seen as a hive of busy bees instead of fungal rot, they're more likely to be seen as an important political constituency to be listened to. Now that slashing up their neighbourhoods with freeways is seen as a bad thing, people in the slums will be able to build the network of relationships needed to create that political voice and demand their rights to clean water and effective sewage.
But those slums are hives of busy bees precisely because of their lack of basic services! Giving them creature comforts like a sewage system would only serve to sap their entrepreneurial spirit!
posted by dirigibleman at 8:09 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
When they're seen as blight, planners have no compunctions about knocking half the buildings down to build freeways through the middle of them, instantly destroying webs of relationships and trade that are keeping thousands sane and optimistic and alive.
No, they'll have no compunction about building those freeways, because those industrious entrepreneurs will just create new hives of industriousness.
And if you're concerned about the lack of municipal services (as you should be), this is also a step in the right political direction: Now that the slums are seen as a hive of busy bees instead of fungal rot, they're more likely to be seen as an important political constituency to be listened to. Now that slashing up their neighbourhoods with freeways is seen as a bad thing, people in the slums will be able to build the network of relationships needed to create that political voice and demand their rights to clean water and effective sewage.
But those slums are hives of busy bees precisely because of their lack of basic services! Giving them creature comforts like a sewage system would only serve to sap their entrepreneurial spirit!
posted by dirigibleman at 8:09 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
dirigibleman: No, they'll have no compunction about building those freeways, because those industrious entrepreneurs will just create new hives of industriousness.
That's definitely a danger. Hopefully the TED-talk enthusiasts have related enough of the importance of the webs which the "entrepreneurs" are creating to prevent that, or at least slow it down.
Hopefully.
But those slums are hives of busy bees precisely because of their lack of basic services! Giving them creature comforts like a sewage system would only serve to sap their entrepreneurial spirit!
That response will definitely happen. When you allow webs to grow, though, they turn into political power, and eventually that political power will be able to say, no, actually, we demand a sewage system.
Hopefully.
posted by clawsoon at 8:17 AM on October 8, 2014
That's definitely a danger. Hopefully the TED-talk enthusiasts have related enough of the importance of the webs which the "entrepreneurs" are creating to prevent that, or at least slow it down.
Hopefully.
But those slums are hives of busy bees precisely because of their lack of basic services! Giving them creature comforts like a sewage system would only serve to sap their entrepreneurial spirit!
That response will definitely happen. When you allow webs to grow, though, they turn into political power, and eventually that political power will be able to say, no, actually, we demand a sewage system.
Hopefully.
posted by clawsoon at 8:17 AM on October 8, 2014
Giving them creature comforts like a sewage system would only serve to sap their entrepreneurial spirit!
Soon they will disrupt sewage as we know it!
posted by TrialByMedia at 8:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Soon they will disrupt sewage as we know it!
posted by TrialByMedia at 8:29 AM on October 8, 2014 [2 favorites]
Whether your life is worthwhile and fulfilling has very little to do with how much money you earn
It's true, money doesn't buy happiness, as they say, but it does buy jet skis, and when was the last time you saw somebody frown on a jet ski?
posted by mrbigmuscles at 8:45 AM on October 8, 2014 [7 favorites]
It's true, money doesn't buy happiness, as they say, but it does buy jet skis, and when was the last time you saw somebody frown on a jet ski?
posted by mrbigmuscles at 8:45 AM on October 8, 2014 [7 favorites]
I think there is an app for letting people use your bathroom for a fee.
posted by colie at 8:48 AM on October 8, 2014
posted by colie at 8:48 AM on October 8, 2014
Hey, I bet if you wanted you could dress up in poor people costumes and go milk cows with all your friends at a Poverty Theme Park! Just think how much happier you'll be!
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:56 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:56 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't want people to think I'm valorizing poverty at all. I don't want to be poor. But I think we should think of poor communities as real, working communities full of people living worthwhile, valuable lives, which in many ways can be better and happier than the lives that the middle class lives, in terms of staying close to family, having free time, and lack of a lot of stressors that we in the modern west live with daily, and general sense of neighborliness and community.
It's kinda hard to describe the difference if you haven't actually lived somewhere in the developing world for a while. It's complicated, and the right answer isn't to dehumanize people who happen to be poor by imagining them all to be miserable wretches living worthless lives, dependent on charity by the rest of us.
What they really need isn't more stuff or more money, or better jobs, as much as its safety and security and clean water, medical care, roads and sanitation, and so on. It's really hard to get across how much it sucks to not be able to trust the water where you live, or to not ever feel safe from either gangs or the police. Basic problems like that are what they mostly complain about, not lack of jobs or 'opportunity'. The best way to help them out is public works programs and anti-corruption programs, imo.
posted by empath at 10:22 AM on October 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
It's kinda hard to describe the difference if you haven't actually lived somewhere in the developing world for a while. It's complicated, and the right answer isn't to dehumanize people who happen to be poor by imagining them all to be miserable wretches living worthless lives, dependent on charity by the rest of us.
What they really need isn't more stuff or more money, or better jobs, as much as its safety and security and clean water, medical care, roads and sanitation, and so on. It's really hard to get across how much it sucks to not be able to trust the water where you live, or to not ever feel safe from either gangs or the police. Basic problems like that are what they mostly complain about, not lack of jobs or 'opportunity'. The best way to help them out is public works programs and anti-corruption programs, imo.
posted by empath at 10:22 AM on October 8, 2014 [5 favorites]
It's true, money doesn't buy happiness, as they say, but it does buy jet skis, and when was the last time you saw somebody frown on a jet ski?
As somebody who has done some small bit of snorkeling, I kind of hate jet skis. They're super loud, can be kind of dangerous, and make a wake out of all proportion to their size. Just sayin'.
posted by newdaddy at 10:23 AM on October 8, 2014
As somebody who has done some small bit of snorkeling, I kind of hate jet skis. They're super loud, can be kind of dangerous, and make a wake out of all proportion to their size. Just sayin'.
posted by newdaddy at 10:23 AM on October 8, 2014
empath, I appreciate your perspective on this. One question as a follow-up to what you've said: Sometimes I've noticed that what people complain about isn't what overwhelms them. What would you say most often overwhelmed people in the communities you lived in, drove them into deep depression or paralyzing grief?
posted by clawsoon at 10:34 AM on October 8, 2014
posted by clawsoon at 10:34 AM on October 8, 2014
MS. MORNIN: That's good, because I work three jobs and I feel like I contribute.posted by heathkit at 11:15 AM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
THE PRESIDENT: You work three jobs?
MS. MORNIN: Three jobs, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that. (Applause.) Get any sleep? (Laughter.)
In order to provide water, sewage, education and basic health services, there needs to be income. Like taxes. With taxes, there needs to be some kind of control. With control, there needs to be some kind of state. With a state, there needs to be government. And this is where we get to choose: do we want democracy or something else.
When I look at the slums of the world, I wonder why they do not create local government. I know, there are different reasons in different countries. Some places, national governments actively work against democracy and development (see: almost all arab countries, all former east block countries).
In Brazil, self-government has led to radical improvements in several cities. Maybe some Brazilian mefites can expand on this?
The scary and hopeless thing is, when the wealthy countries support aid projects, they rarely support local government and democracy. One good reason for this is that local government may be on the terror-lists. However - local government might be less interested in international terror if they were able to work where they are.
Where I live, democracy was achieved in the mid-1800's. A huge element of the revolutionary movement then were nationalist religious people who are to this day a pest. We have a state religion and religious education is a huge part of the public school curriculum. I strongly believe these people are the crazies. But you would never guess if you didn't know. I live in Denmark.
What I am saying is: we need to encourage and support local self government, because it is a benefit for everyone if everyone has access to basic services. And we need to understand that sometimes the road to self government goes in strange directions.
I am aware this is slightly derailly, and I don't want to initiate a discussion about ways and means of development. It's just that a discussion about the relative happiness of poor people seems to me to be a little paternalistic and sad, and I want to point out that there is an alternative and that it works.
posted by mumimor at 1:57 PM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
When I look at the slums of the world, I wonder why they do not create local government. I know, there are different reasons in different countries. Some places, national governments actively work against democracy and development (see: almost all arab countries, all former east block countries).
In Brazil, self-government has led to radical improvements in several cities. Maybe some Brazilian mefites can expand on this?
The scary and hopeless thing is, when the wealthy countries support aid projects, they rarely support local government and democracy. One good reason for this is that local government may be on the terror-lists. However - local government might be less interested in international terror if they were able to work where they are.
Where I live, democracy was achieved in the mid-1800's. A huge element of the revolutionary movement then were nationalist religious people who are to this day a pest. We have a state religion and religious education is a huge part of the public school curriculum. I strongly believe these people are the crazies. But you would never guess if you didn't know. I live in Denmark.
What I am saying is: we need to encourage and support local self government, because it is a benefit for everyone if everyone has access to basic services. And we need to understand that sometimes the road to self government goes in strange directions.
I am aware this is slightly derailly, and I don't want to initiate a discussion about ways and means of development. It's just that a discussion about the relative happiness of poor people seems to me to be a little paternalistic and sad, and I want to point out that there is an alternative and that it works.
posted by mumimor at 1:57 PM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
>“The next time you bite into a soft, sweet, gulab jamun at a five-star hotel in Mumbai,” Sharma crows in her “Food, Glorious Food” section, “you will probably be eating something manufactured in Dharavi.” (Mumbai journalist Kalpana Sharma)
Cray-ze: Food manufactured in a slum without proper running water or sewage system? Clearly Sharma knows nothing about what those stars mean in Five-star.
posted by xtian at 2:13 PM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Cray-ze: Food manufactured in a slum without proper running water or sewage system? Clearly Sharma knows nothing about what those stars mean in Five-star.
posted by xtian at 2:13 PM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
When I look at the slums of the world, I wonder why they do not create local government.
There are plenty of ad-hoc local organizations in poor communities, but I can tell you why there's not a functional local government in maya parts of Guatemala, etc -- they were the victims of a systematic oppression and mass murder campaign from the central government with the tacit approval of the US. Any attempt to form organizations like unions or responsive local governments was met with violence by the military, police and elites. That tends to be the case in much of the developing world.
The scary and hopeless thing is, when the wealthy countries support aid projects, they rarely support local government and democracy. One good reason for this is that local government may be on the terror-lists. However - local government might be less interested in international terror if they were able to work where they are.
This is because a lot of that aid is really aid for large multinational corporations that want to exploit natural resources, not aid to improve the lives of the people that live there, and when responsive local government exists, it tends to oppose such incursions.
Slums don't just happen to exist, they tend to be created by bad policies.
posted by empath at 2:21 PM on October 8, 2014 [9 favorites]
There are plenty of ad-hoc local organizations in poor communities, but I can tell you why there's not a functional local government in maya parts of Guatemala, etc -- they were the victims of a systematic oppression and mass murder campaign from the central government with the tacit approval of the US. Any attempt to form organizations like unions or responsive local governments was met with violence by the military, police and elites. That tends to be the case in much of the developing world.
The scary and hopeless thing is, when the wealthy countries support aid projects, they rarely support local government and democracy. One good reason for this is that local government may be on the terror-lists. However - local government might be less interested in international terror if they were able to work where they are.
This is because a lot of that aid is really aid for large multinational corporations that want to exploit natural resources, not aid to improve the lives of the people that live there, and when responsive local government exists, it tends to oppose such incursions.
Slums don't just happen to exist, they tend to be created by bad policies.
posted by empath at 2:21 PM on October 8, 2014 [9 favorites]
empath: Any attempt to form organizations like unions or responsive local governments was met with violence by the military, police and elites. That tends to be the case in much of the developing world.
That's a great point, and that's why I keep pointing out the silver lining in this case: It's easier to develop a political voice and preempt that violence if you're being valorized instead of being condemned. (It's not nearly as good as being treated as a human being, as any historian of the suffrage movement will tell you, but it's a step in the right direction.)
This is because a lot of that aid is really aid for large multinational corporations that want to exploit natural resources, not aid to improve the lives of the people that live there, and when responsive local government exists, it tends to oppose such incursions.
That reminds me of Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.
posted by clawsoon at 2:33 PM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
That's a great point, and that's why I keep pointing out the silver lining in this case: It's easier to develop a political voice and preempt that violence if you're being valorized instead of being condemned. (It's not nearly as good as being treated as a human being, as any historian of the suffrage movement will tell you, but it's a step in the right direction.)
This is because a lot of that aid is really aid for large multinational corporations that want to exploit natural resources, not aid to improve the lives of the people that live there, and when responsive local government exists, it tends to oppose such incursions.
That reminds me of Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.
posted by clawsoon at 2:33 PM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
Slums don't just happen to exist, they tend to be created by bad policies.
Exactly. And they continue to exist because somebody, somewhere benefits. It may just be stability (keeping the poor bottled up in one place), or it may be profitable to maintain a reservoir of people so desperate they'll work for any wage, or it may simply be a zero-sum situation where one group has all the resources - but there's always reasons for the slum to be there.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:58 PM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Exactly. And they continue to exist because somebody, somewhere benefits. It may just be stability (keeping the poor bottled up in one place), or it may be profitable to maintain a reservoir of people so desperate they'll work for any wage, or it may simply be a zero-sum situation where one group has all the resources - but there's always reasons for the slum to be there.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:58 PM on October 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
MS. MORNIN: That's good, because I work three jobs and I feel like I contribute.
Ugh, I can't believe I clicked that.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 4:18 PM on October 8, 2014
Ugh, I can't believe I clicked that.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 4:18 PM on October 8, 2014
There was this commercial a few presidential cycles ago here in Chile, where a father and son where admiring the shanty towns in the hills of Valparaiso, the father going on about how typical and pretty they were, and the son asks "Yeah, but would you want to live there?". Embarrassed silence from the Dad.
A few years later, 2.500 houses burnt down because of the quaint lack of minimal fire regulations, access for fire trucks, etc.
posted by signal at 7:17 PM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
A few years later, 2.500 houses burnt down because of the quaint lack of minimal fire regulations, access for fire trucks, etc.
posted by signal at 7:17 PM on October 8, 2014 [1 favorite]
The extremely poor are often happier than their middle class counterparts.
This is extremely unlikely to be generally true and I very much doubt that there is good research or high quality journalism that would support this -- the above-linked HPI site certainly does not, for example. Being extremely poor means having to choose which of your children will eat today and which will be hungry and doing the same thing tomorrow and the day after and the day after that; it means taking demeaning and dangerous work for inadequate pay; it means being perpetually in debt at outrageous interest rates in order to pay for the barest of bare necessities. It also means doing without basic medical care and not having access to basic rights as a citizen (including voting if you live in a place where you need to have official papers in order to vote; otherwise it likely means selling your vote to a corrupt politician because that is one of your very few monetizeable assets).
There is a reason poverty is described as a form of structural violence and can cause mental health problems for the people afflicted. It is a demeaning, demoralizing, and degrading grind, made all the worse by ubiquitous media showing the material and social lives of the wealthy on TV shows and in movies. Poor people are not stupid and are not uninformed -- they are making the best choices that they can see available to them, but getting good results is unlikely given the almost unimaginably vast and rigid structural constraints.
It's easy to create a romanticized notion of the lives of the poor from limited (and often structured) contact and from romanticized accounts in crappy journalism and in movies, but the reality isn't nearly so pleasant. The social ties and culture are very real, but are a pretty pallid recompense for having unfed children every night.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:09 PM on October 8, 2014 [7 favorites]
This is extremely unlikely to be generally true and I very much doubt that there is good research or high quality journalism that would support this -- the above-linked HPI site certainly does not, for example. Being extremely poor means having to choose which of your children will eat today and which will be hungry and doing the same thing tomorrow and the day after and the day after that; it means taking demeaning and dangerous work for inadequate pay; it means being perpetually in debt at outrageous interest rates in order to pay for the barest of bare necessities. It also means doing without basic medical care and not having access to basic rights as a citizen (including voting if you live in a place where you need to have official papers in order to vote; otherwise it likely means selling your vote to a corrupt politician because that is one of your very few monetizeable assets).
There is a reason poverty is described as a form of structural violence and can cause mental health problems for the people afflicted. It is a demeaning, demoralizing, and degrading grind, made all the worse by ubiquitous media showing the material and social lives of the wealthy on TV shows and in movies. Poor people are not stupid and are not uninformed -- they are making the best choices that they can see available to them, but getting good results is unlikely given the almost unimaginably vast and rigid structural constraints.
It's easy to create a romanticized notion of the lives of the poor from limited (and often structured) contact and from romanticized accounts in crappy journalism and in movies, but the reality isn't nearly so pleasant. The social ties and culture are very real, but are a pretty pallid recompense for having unfed children every night.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:09 PM on October 8, 2014 [7 favorites]
Outside observers with comfortable lives see others who live in a slum laughing and smiling. My goodness they even seem to have families and care for each other.
Conclusion, wow, They must be content, and just fine with how things are. The romaticising of poverty and the struggle of how other humans handle their dire circumstances is wrong.
This has been done over and over through human history to placate the observers' guilt. The idea that a first world pundit would figure out how to exploit guilt and turn it into motivation for a group of haves is a farce.
Look at the distribution pattern, the anticipation of their targets needs. Blah blah blah.
Now back to ME. And my first world problems.
posted by moonlily at 1:43 AM on October 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
Conclusion, wow, They must be content, and just fine with how things are. The romaticising of poverty and the struggle of how other humans handle their dire circumstances is wrong.
This has been done over and over through human history to placate the observers' guilt. The idea that a first world pundit would figure out how to exploit guilt and turn it into motivation for a group of haves is a farce.
Look at the distribution pattern, the anticipation of their targets needs. Blah blah blah.
Now back to ME. And my first world problems.
posted by moonlily at 1:43 AM on October 9, 2014 [1 favorite]
Hopefully an enterprising resident of Dharavi will release an updated version of Common People.
posted by clawsoon at 5:44 AM on October 9, 2014
posted by clawsoon at 5:44 AM on October 9, 2014
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