And on that note, I am going to make myself a cup of tea.
March 6, 2015 11:56 AM Subscribe
If someone said yes to tea, started drinking it, and then passed out before they’d finished it, don’t keep on pouring it down their throat. Take the tea away and make sure they are safe. Because unconscious people don’t want tea. Trust me on this.Rockstar Dinosaur Pirate Princess uses tea to prove that consent is not actually that complicated.
This post was deleted for the following reason: As much as I am for trying to raise awareness of the importance of consent, I feel like setting up a consent analogy as the sole focus of discussion is pretty much asking for a thread that's an argument about the applicability-or-not of that analogy in a way that we've done a lot here before already. -- cortex
You say “hey, would you like a cup of tea?” and they go “omg fuck yes, I would fucking LOVE a cup of tea! Thank you!*” then you know they want a cup of tea.
I love that her example of consent is enthusiastic consent.
posted by Gelatin at 12:08 PM on March 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
That video is all kinds of creepy btw (date-rape drugging!), but it did manage to sneak past the S. Korean censor board thanks to the incredibly thinly veiled metaphor.
posted by subdee at 12:14 PM on March 6, 2015
posted by subdee at 12:14 PM on March 6, 2015
The weird thing is this I know at least 2 people who would get pissed off if they made you actual tea and then you said you didn't want to drink it. People are weird and scary all around.
posted by bleep at 12:15 PM on March 6, 2015
posted by bleep at 12:15 PM on March 6, 2015
Apparently someone needs to make my state legislature a pot of tea and explain this to them.
posted by msbutah at 12:18 PM on March 6, 2015
posted by msbutah at 12:18 PM on March 6, 2015
The only people who pretend this isn't simple are those that want to ignore consent. They are potential rapos.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:18 PM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:18 PM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm actually having some tea right now. It's good to just enjoy it alone from time to time, too.
posted by swift at 12:18 PM on March 6, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by swift at 12:18 PM on March 6, 2015 [14 favorites]
The weird thing is this I know at least 2 people who would get pissed off if they made you actual tea and then you said you didn't want to drink it. People are weird and scary all around.
I even know at least one person who would probably give you tea, and then show up at your house in the middle of the night the next week to try and give you more tea.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:37 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I even know at least one person who would probably give you tea, and then show up at your house in the middle of the night the next week to try and give you more tea.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:37 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
(this person did exactly that with Thai food of all things, so, you know. I am sort of assuming their attitude toward hot brewed beverages is similar)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:38 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:38 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
This puts Mrs Doyle in a whole new light.
posted by Thing at 12:42 PM on March 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Thing at 12:42 PM on March 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Consent should also extend to types of tea*. For example, you may make Earl Grey (hot, naturally), but others may prefer a nice chamomile. Or rooibos. Or green tea. And they may want sugar or milk. So find out what type of tea your partner might enjoy, because what's your cup of tea might not be their cup of tea. And that's ok, because there is a lot of variety in tea out there and people have preferences but might also be open to trying something different from time to time, to expand their tea horizons.
Be open to tea variety yourself, too.
*tea can also mean sex in this context.
posted by nubs at 12:46 PM on March 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Be open to tea variety yourself, too.
*tea can also mean sex in this context.
posted by nubs at 12:46 PM on March 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Somebody once told me that Suikoden (or maybe Suikoden II) was a brilliant game that I needed to play.
There was a point fairly early on where a suspicious character offered me tea, and I had the choice of saying "Yes" or "No." "No" simply led to another yes/no tea question, worded slightly differently, as did the next no and the next. The game simply would not continue until I drank the damned tea. So I said "Yes." SURPRISE, the tea was drugged and my character passed out.
I stopped playing.
posted by Foosnark at 12:49 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
There was a point fairly early on where a suspicious character offered me tea, and I had the choice of saying "Yes" or "No." "No" simply led to another yes/no tea question, worded slightly differently, as did the next no and the next. The game simply would not continue until I drank the damned tea. So I said "Yes." SURPRISE, the tea was drugged and my character passed out.
I stopped playing.
posted by Foosnark at 12:49 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
And what if you agreed for some tea and then, after promising to make you some tea, the other person decided that they would rather go and watch Downton Abbey?
What do you do then? Pick up the half finished tea they left lying around and make your own tea or go without any tea?
posted by TheLittlePrince at 12:50 PM on March 6, 2015
What do you do then? Pick up the half finished tea they left lying around and make your own tea or go without any tea?
posted by TheLittlePrince at 12:50 PM on March 6, 2015
“No," he said, "look, it's very, very simple ... all I want ... is a cup of tea. You are going to make one for me. Keep quiet and listen." And he sat. He told the Nutri-Matic about India, he told it about China, he told it about Ceylon. He told it about broad leaves drying in the sun. He told it about silver teapots. He told it about summer afternoons on the lawn. He told it about putting in the milk before the tea so it wouldn't get scalded. He even told it (briefly) about the history of the East India Company.
"So that's it, is it?" said the Nutri-Matic when he had finished.
"Yes," said Arthur, "that is what I want."
"You want the taste of dried leaves in boiled water?"
"Er, yes. With milk."
"Squirted out of a cow?"
posted by Foosnark at 12:52 PM on March 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
"So that's it, is it?" said the Nutri-Matic when he had finished.
"Yes," said Arthur, "that is what I want."
"You want the taste of dried leaves in boiled water?"
"Er, yes. With milk."
"Squirted out of a cow?"
posted by Foosnark at 12:52 PM on March 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
TheLittlePrince, the piece addresses that!
They might say “Yes please, that’s kind of you” and then when the tea arrives they actually don’t want the tea at all. Sure, that’s kind of annoying as you’ve gone to the effort of making the tea, but they remain under no obligation to drink the tea. They did want tea, now they don’t. Sometimes people change their mind in the time it takes to boil that kettle, brew the tea and add the milk. And it’s ok for people to change their mind, and you are still not entitled to watch them drink it even though you went to the trouble of making it.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:53 PM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
They might say “Yes please, that’s kind of you” and then when the tea arrives they actually don’t want the tea at all. Sure, that’s kind of annoying as you’ve gone to the effort of making the tea, but they remain under no obligation to drink the tea. They did want tea, now they don’t. Sometimes people change their mind in the time it takes to boil that kettle, brew the tea and add the milk. And it’s ok for people to change their mind, and you are still not entitled to watch them drink it even though you went to the trouble of making it.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:53 PM on March 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
I will admit it drives me slightly crazy when Mr. Logical asks for a cup of tea and then forgets it's there until it's gross and cold. If you do not want the tea once it arrives, tell me, and I will probably drink it. Cold wasted tea is sad tea.
(also I kind of want Blast Hardcheese's friend to come give me random Thai food, but then I will almost always be in the mood for Thai food.)
posted by tautological at 1:00 PM on March 6, 2015
(also I kind of want Blast Hardcheese's friend to come give me random Thai food, but then I will almost always be in the mood for Thai food.)
posted by tautological at 1:00 PM on March 6, 2015
What is someone is really drunk, and you ask if they want a cup of tea, and they say they do.
With tea, no big deal, which is why the usefulness of this analogy seems limited to me.
posted by layceepee at 1:01 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
With tea, no big deal, which is why the usefulness of this analogy seems limited to me.
posted by layceepee at 1:01 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think you're really, hugely, massively missing the point here.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:10 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:10 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
layceepee--I hope to god you're kidding, but in case you aren't:
as I'm sure you know, when someone is really drunk their ability to make decisions is compromised, so when in doubt, don't.
It truly is not that difficult to avoid having sex with a less than enthusiastic partner.
posted by she's not there at 1:12 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
as I'm sure you know, when someone is really drunk their ability to make decisions is compromised, so when in doubt, don't.
It truly is not that difficult to avoid having sex with a less than enthusiastic partner.
posted by she's not there at 1:12 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
a fiendish thingy: "TheLittlePrince, the piece addresses that!
They might say “Yes please, that’s kind of you” and then when the tea arrives they actually don’t want the tea at all. Sure, that’s kind of annoying as you’ve gone to the effort of making the tea, but they remain under no obligation to drink the tea. They did want tea, now they don’t. Sometimes people change their mind in the time it takes to boil that kettle, brew the tea and add the milk. And it’s ok for people to change their mind, and you are still not entitled to watch them drink it even though you went to the trouble of making it."
My question is for the case when the person who is supposed to prepare the tea wanders off ...
If you think about it, the tea analogy with consent for sex is a bit limited ... making tea is a one way process: someone makes it, the other person enjoys it. there is a creator and a recipient. someone is the "pleasurer" and other person is "pleasured"
but sex is a two-way mutually pleasurable process, where the tea analogy falls woefully short.
None of the above is to say that consent is not important or is complicated ... but the nature of consent in having sex is different from nature of consent in agreeing to drink tea.
I love creating analogies about sex/consent and, here, comparing it to drinking tea is interesting ... but I find it very short of capturing the essence of interaction that happens.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 1:14 PM on March 6, 2015
This seems more like an attempt to be clever than something actually useful. Consent doesn't require analogy. Clear cases are clear and are made no more clear through metaphor. The few fuzzy edge cases are made even more fuzzy by metaphor.
posted by Justinian at 1:16 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 1:16 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
What is someone is really drunk, and you ask if they want a cup of tea, and they say they do.
With tea, no big deal, which is why the usefulness of this analogy seems limited to me.
WHY IS IT A BIG DEAL IF IT IS SEX INSTEAD OF TEA. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND HOW A SITUATION OF "POSSIBLY NOT CURRENTLY HAVING SEX" BECOMES A BIG DEAL.
Ok, with that screamy rage out of my system. It remains not a big deal, layceepee, because the point of the whole analogy is not ever forcing something on someone. Sex or tea. If someone is really drunk and says they want tea, all right, well:
-Maybe you put the kettle on. But hey, pay attention: maybe by the time the kettle's boiling, this person is seeming a lot less certain about tea.
-Maybe you suggest instead of tea, the person might want to have a lie-down with a blanket, and maybe some water, and THEN you can talk about tea when they're more together.
-Maybe you make some tea and then you just leave it there on the table, and you don't sit there and stare at them till they drink it.
If you really can't see how any of these possible outcomes would look when "tea" is replaced with "sex," then frankly your attitude toward sex might be due for a serious examination.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:16 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
With tea, no big deal, which is why the usefulness of this analogy seems limited to me.
WHY IS IT A BIG DEAL IF IT IS SEX INSTEAD OF TEA. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND AND WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND HOW A SITUATION OF "POSSIBLY NOT CURRENTLY HAVING SEX" BECOMES A BIG DEAL.
Ok, with that screamy rage out of my system. It remains not a big deal, layceepee, because the point of the whole analogy is not ever forcing something on someone. Sex or tea. If someone is really drunk and says they want tea, all right, well:
-Maybe you put the kettle on. But hey, pay attention: maybe by the time the kettle's boiling, this person is seeming a lot less certain about tea.
-Maybe you suggest instead of tea, the person might want to have a lie-down with a blanket, and maybe some water, and THEN you can talk about tea when they're more together.
-Maybe you make some tea and then you just leave it there on the table, and you don't sit there and stare at them till they drink it.
If you really can't see how any of these possible outcomes would look when "tea" is replaced with "sex," then frankly your attitude toward sex might be due for a serious examination.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:16 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
it's not an analogy about sex, The Little Prince. It's an analogy about rape, and how not to do it. Rape, my friend, is NOT a two-way street.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:17 PM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:17 PM on March 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is a terrible article. There's more complexity around serving tea, much less complicated sexual relationships among adults.
posted by Skorgu at 1:20 PM on March 6, 2015
posted by Skorgu at 1:20 PM on March 6, 2015
I prefer to talk about sex and consent using pizza metaphors.
posted by metaphorever at 1:22 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by metaphorever at 1:22 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Rape is not a complicated sexual relationship.
"Do you want to sex, y/n?"
"ehhh..."
"Okay, let's go ride bikes."
That's what this analogy is saying.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:24 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Do you want to sex, y/n?"
"ehhh..."
"Okay, let's go ride bikes."
That's what this analogy is saying.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:24 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
What is someone is really drunk, and you ask if they want a cup of tea, and they say they do.
Ugh.
Tell you what: If someone is really drunk, why on earth are you trying to get them to have tea with you? They're probably going to have a massive hangover in the morning, so you really need to be making sure they're well-hydrated and can get home safely rather than trying to grease the wheels on the track of getting them to stay awake and drink your tea instead.
If it's just so imperative for you to drink tea with someone RIGHT NOW, for the love of god, go back out and find someone else, someone who has it together enough to be able to legally consent to your request. You can always offer some tea to that really drunk person at some other time/place down the line, when they're not quite so hammered. And if it turns out that they don't want to drink tea with you when they're sober, well, you're probably pretty glad you didn't have tea together when they were super-wasted, yeah? Win-win.
This is not confusing or complicated. It is not difficult to stop yourself from raping someone. Just: Don't rape.
posted by divined by radio at 1:25 PM on March 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ugh.
Tell you what: If someone is really drunk, why on earth are you trying to get them to have tea with you? They're probably going to have a massive hangover in the morning, so you really need to be making sure they're well-hydrated and can get home safely rather than trying to grease the wheels on the track of getting them to stay awake and drink your tea instead.
If it's just so imperative for you to drink tea with someone RIGHT NOW, for the love of god, go back out and find someone else, someone who has it together enough to be able to legally consent to your request. You can always offer some tea to that really drunk person at some other time/place down the line, when they're not quite so hammered. And if it turns out that they don't want to drink tea with you when they're sober, well, you're probably pretty glad you didn't have tea together when they were super-wasted, yeah? Win-win.
This is not confusing or complicated. It is not difficult to stop yourself from raping someone. Just: Don't rape.
posted by divined by radio at 1:25 PM on March 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Surely giving them tea would help with hydration? So actually trying to get drunk people to drink tea would be a good thing.
Whereas raping them wouldn't.
posted by squinty at 1:36 PM on March 6, 2015
Whereas raping them wouldn't.
posted by squinty at 1:36 PM on March 6, 2015
What is someone is really drunk, and you ask if they want a cup of tea, and they say they do.
Why are you so worried about your technical right to rape someone?
Give them a goddamn glass of water and keep an eye on them. Being really drunk is a medical condition, not an ethical dilemma.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:37 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why are you so worried about your technical right to rape someone?
Give them a goddamn glass of water and keep an eye on them. Being really drunk is a medical condition, not an ethical dilemma.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:37 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, by all means let's nitpick the metaphor to death rather than focusing on what the metaphor is trying to achieve.
Yes, maybe you can in your specialness detect one problem with one tiny piece of it, and maybe you are pointing that out with all the best intentions that "but maybe people won't understand your point because this one bit is wrong," but maybe we could give the metaphor a shot out in the real world and see how many people might just be able to get it despite the glaring flaw you see because maybe they're just going with it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:38 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, maybe you can in your specialness detect one problem with one tiny piece of it, and maybe you are pointing that out with all the best intentions that "but maybe people won't understand your point because this one bit is wrong," but maybe we could give the metaphor a shot out in the real world and see how many people might just be able to get it despite the glaring flaw you see because maybe they're just going with it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:38 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Surely giving them tea would help with hydration? So actually trying to get drunk people to drink tea would be a good thing.
sigh.
No. No, no no no no no no no no no no. "Trying to get x person to do y thing" is the whole fucking problem. People are individuals with agency. You can offer help but you have a responsibility to respect their agency. Are you gonna pour the glass of water down their throat if they don't want it? You don't get to, just because otherwise they might have a hangover.
And if you're going to keep being super-literal with the tea analogy, STILL NO! Because if you're real fucking drunk, the last thing you need is a scalding hot beverage--you could get hurt.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:39 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
sigh.
No. No, no no no no no no no no no no. "Trying to get x person to do y thing" is the whole fucking problem. People are individuals with agency. You can offer help but you have a responsibility to respect their agency. Are you gonna pour the glass of water down their throat if they don't want it? You don't get to, just because otherwise they might have a hangover.
And if you're going to keep being super-literal with the tea analogy, STILL NO! Because if you're real fucking drunk, the last thing you need is a scalding hot beverage--you could get hurt.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:39 PM on March 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
as long as we are over thinking this plate of beans :
from the article "just imagine instead of initiating sex, you’re making them a cup of tea."
The article uses "making someone a cup of tea" as an analogy for having sex ... which is a pretty silly analogy ...
and frankly,
Justinian: "Consent doesn't require analogy"
posted by TheLittlePrince at 1:40 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
from the article "just imagine instead of initiating sex, you’re making them a cup of tea."
The article uses "making someone a cup of tea" as an analogy for having sex ... which is a pretty silly analogy ...
and frankly,
Justinian: "Consent doesn't require analogy"
posted by TheLittlePrince at 1:40 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know, the more I think about it, the less I like the tea analogy. It makes perfect sense to people who are already adamantly pro-consent, anti-rape culture, who are people who don't terribly need analogies to understand consent. But for anyone that isn't already educated? It doesn't really make a ton of sense, and muddles more than it helps.
If you force people to drink tea, you're probably bad company and I wouldn't want to hang out with you, but it's really not that transgressive. And honestly, I can think of situations where I might socially pressure someone into drinking tea even if they didn't want to. Like, what if I'm taking my friend to Grandma's and Grandma's last pleasure in life is making tea? I'd be like, friend, you gotta suck it up even though Grandma's already used this teabag twice. I obviously don't feel that way about pressuring people into having sex.
I do, however, like metaphorever's link to the pizza metaphor, so I'll call this post a net-win.
posted by fermezporte at 1:41 PM on March 6, 2015
If you force people to drink tea, you're probably bad company and I wouldn't want to hang out with you, but it's really not that transgressive. And honestly, I can think of situations where I might socially pressure someone into drinking tea even if they didn't want to. Like, what if I'm taking my friend to Grandma's and Grandma's last pleasure in life is making tea? I'd be like, friend, you gotta suck it up even though Grandma's already used this teabag twice. I obviously don't feel that way about pressuring people into having sex.
I do, however, like metaphorever's link to the pizza metaphor, so I'll call this post a net-win.
posted by fermezporte at 1:41 PM on March 6, 2015
I get it but the analogy does kind of break down a little. Someone who's really drunk says they want tea. Because of the way our brains work, neither they nor us can tell how with-it they are right now or if they will remember this. We give them some tea. It's a pretty low-stakes situation, highly unlikely that anything bad is going to happen as a result of plain old tea. In fact the hydration was probably good for them.
I don't think it's inappropriate to question things this way. I don't think interrogating this metaphor means you don't believe in consent or you're against educating the public about it. It's a big deal and requires care, and I think examining our messages critically is part of that.
posted by bleep at 1:42 PM on March 6, 2015
I don't think it's inappropriate to question things this way. I don't think interrogating this metaphor means you don't believe in consent or you're against educating the public about it. It's a big deal and requires care, and I think examining our messages critically is part of that.
posted by bleep at 1:42 PM on March 6, 2015
Although it does work in the context of an unconscious person.
posted by bleep at 1:43 PM on March 6, 2015
posted by bleep at 1:43 PM on March 6, 2015
What if someone is really drunk, and you ask if they want a cup of tea, and they say they do.
If someone is really drunk, and they ask you for a cup of tea, but you have any reason at all to think that maybe they're only asking you because they are really drunk, you should not give them tea. Err on the side of caution, tea-wise.
If someone asks you for a cup of tea, and you genuinely, truly believe that they want tea, and it doesn't occur to you for a second that they might be asking you just because they're drunk, and all the evidence suggests that no reasonable person could have figured it out, either, because their drunkenness was incredibly subtle and was not outwardly manifested in any way... then it's not your fault, but this is not going to happen, because drunkenness doesn't work that way, so I wouldn't worry about it.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 1:44 PM on March 6, 2015
If someone is really drunk, and they ask you for a cup of tea, but you have any reason at all to think that maybe they're only asking you because they are really drunk, you should not give them tea. Err on the side of caution, tea-wise.
If someone asks you for a cup of tea, and you genuinely, truly believe that they want tea, and it doesn't occur to you for a second that they might be asking you just because they're drunk, and all the evidence suggests that no reasonable person could have figured it out, either, because their drunkenness was incredibly subtle and was not outwardly manifested in any way... then it's not your fault, but this is not going to happen, because drunkenness doesn't work that way, so I wouldn't worry about it.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 1:44 PM on March 6, 2015
Hi I'm on MetaFilter and I could overthink a cup of tea.
posted by Foosnark at 1:45 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Foosnark at 1:45 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh good lord. Everyone join me now:
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
The entire POINT of the analogy is: you don't force people to do things. Tea is used as a metaphor precisely because it's non-transgressive and thus likely to slip through the "but I'd never get someone wasted just to fuck them" filters.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:45 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
The entire POINT of the analogy is: you don't force people to do things. Tea is used as a metaphor precisely because it's non-transgressive and thus likely to slip through the "but I'd never get someone wasted just to fuck them" filters.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:45 PM on March 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
« Older IT'S DEFINITELY BEEN JUMPED ON, THAT EGG | Black Friday Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 12:05 PM on March 6, 2015