Saga of the Sagas
June 24, 2015 6:58 AM Subscribe
This years proposed Worldcon rule changes included one introducing a new Hugo Award, for Best Saga:
A work of science fiction or fantasy appearing in multiple volumes and consisting of at least 400,000 words of which the latest part was published in the previous calendar year.
Initially the new award was coupled with the removal of an old one: Best Novellete. This raised some objections and that part of the proposal was removed. What would the winners of Best Saga Award look like? Brandon Kempner tries modeling it based on The Locus Awards and Goodreads.
A work of science fiction or fantasy appearing in multiple volumes and consisting of at least 400,000 words of which the latest part was published in the previous calendar year.
Initially the new award was coupled with the removal of an old one: Best Novellete. This raised some objections and that part of the proposal was removed. What would the winners of Best Saga Award look like? Brandon Kempner tries modeling it based on The Locus Awards and Goodreads.
Paging eriko...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:12 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:12 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Andrew Hickey cool on shaking up the short fiction but down on Sagas:
Now, I’m neutral on the novelette thing — I think novelette is a strange category anyway, and completely misnamed. I’ve written short stories over 7,500 words, and I’ve written a novel, and comparing the two is ridiculous — and reading 7,500 words should not take even the slowest reader more than about half an hour, so the reading experience is nothing like that for a novel either — so calling these stories “novelettes” is like calling a mouse an “elephantette”. So I don’t really think a novelette is a thing, in the way that short stories, novellas, or novels are. But on the other hand, I don’t think awarding the best short story between 7,500 and 15,000 words is actually a bad thing to do.
I do, however, have an opinion on the “best saga” award. I think it’s a terrible idea.
posted by Artw at 7:12 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now, I’m neutral on the novelette thing — I think novelette is a strange category anyway, and completely misnamed. I’ve written short stories over 7,500 words, and I’ve written a novel, and comparing the two is ridiculous — and reading 7,500 words should not take even the slowest reader more than about half an hour, so the reading experience is nothing like that for a novel either — so calling these stories “novelettes” is like calling a mouse an “elephantette”. So I don’t really think a novelette is a thing, in the way that short stories, novellas, or novels are. But on the other hand, I don’t think awarding the best short story between 7,500 and 15,000 words is actually a bad thing to do.
I do, however, have an opinion on the “best saga” award. I think it’s a terrible idea.
posted by Artw at 7:12 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well obviously if it's worth saying in 20,000 words it's far more worth saying in 500,000 words. Remember how successful Robert Silverberg's novel length treatment of Nightfall was? That's why I'm totally pumped for Orson Scott Card to do a 7 book series based on the same story.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:16 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:16 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hey, just make up your own awards! Let's have a "best fake language" and "coolest interior map", and then you could have media awards like "best audio logs recorded by dead people in a videogame" and "best obscure callback in season six of a television show". Sponsored by TV Tropes!
posted by selfnoise at 7:21 AM on June 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 7:21 AM on June 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
The problem I see with "sagas" is not that 400,000 words is too long or whatever, it's the potential damage from future additions. I liked the first few Expanse books, but hated the last one I read enough to sour on the series. Same with Red/Green/Blue Mars.
I am curious about how it'll work out in real time: do you nominate a series as soon as it crosses the threshold, when it's still on the upswing? Wait until it basically becomes a "lifetime achievement award"?
posted by mikewebkist at 7:29 AM on June 24, 2015
I am curious about how it'll work out in real time: do you nominate a series as soon as it crosses the threshold, when it's still on the upswing? Wait until it basically becomes a "lifetime achievement award"?
posted by mikewebkist at 7:29 AM on June 24, 2015
selfnoise:
posted by charred husk at 7:29 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Hey, just make up your own awards! Let's have a "best fake language" and "coolest interior map", and then you could have media awards like "best audio logs recorded by dead people in a videogame""I... would actually go for some of that. Maybe not for the Hugos, but I'd love to see a "best fake language" contest.
posted by charred husk at 7:29 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think it might be important to this discussion to note this recent post from Jared Dashoff over on File770. I will quote it in its entirety:
I would like to thank Eric, John, Mike and ALL of you on the internets (but mostly here on 770) for a) pointing out we messed up with our considerations when we came out with the first Saga proposal b) still discussing it on the merits without our mistaken first clause c) continuing to discuss it and give us feedback in a friendly and constructive manner. It really is nice to know that this community still wants to work out things and be inclusive and nice. It’s refreshing this summer.
We are hoping to have a revised version of the Saga proposal out today or definitely tomorrow. Mike has so graciously offered to post it here and it’ll go up on SMOFs, JOFs and the Sasquan page, too.
It’ll have a lower word count (300k) and some other changes, as well as a second proposal (which has the same sponsors, but is a separate but tied deal) to keep a novel from appearing on the same final ballot. As people continue to discuss and offer criticism, we will try and track it (a full time job doesn’t really lend to following 300+ comment threads here, on Whatever, on Eric’s page, SMOFs, JOFs, and elsewhere, but we will try) and use it in a final revision to be submitted before the cut off for New Business. The word count will probably go a bit lower still on that final version as data from the Locus lists and helpful contributors has shown that somewhere around 240k words covers most trilogies, allows us to open up the field to series that never really get Hugo consideration like the ones Eric pointed out and others, and still has enough length that we aren’t just creating an award for LONG novel. (I am not for that, I think writing across multiple volumes is different from writing a stand alone and should be judged as such, but long novels shouldn’t be judged separate from short ones.)
Watch this space!
posted by kyrademon at 7:31 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would like to thank Eric, John, Mike and ALL of you on the internets (but mostly here on 770) for a) pointing out we messed up with our considerations when we came out with the first Saga proposal b) still discussing it on the merits without our mistaken first clause c) continuing to discuss it and give us feedback in a friendly and constructive manner. It really is nice to know that this community still wants to work out things and be inclusive and nice. It’s refreshing this summer.
We are hoping to have a revised version of the Saga proposal out today or definitely tomorrow. Mike has so graciously offered to post it here and it’ll go up on SMOFs, JOFs and the Sasquan page, too.
It’ll have a lower word count (300k) and some other changes, as well as a second proposal (which has the same sponsors, but is a separate but tied deal) to keep a novel from appearing on the same final ballot. As people continue to discuss and offer criticism, we will try and track it (a full time job doesn’t really lend to following 300+ comment threads here, on Whatever, on Eric’s page, SMOFs, JOFs, and elsewhere, but we will try) and use it in a final revision to be submitted before the cut off for New Business. The word count will probably go a bit lower still on that final version as data from the Locus lists and helpful contributors has shown that somewhere around 240k words covers most trilogies, allows us to open up the field to series that never really get Hugo consideration like the ones Eric pointed out and others, and still has enough length that we aren’t just creating an award for LONG novel. (I am not for that, I think writing across multiple volumes is different from writing a stand alone and should be judged as such, but long novels shouldn’t be judged separate from short ones.)
Watch this space!
posted by kyrademon at 7:31 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best Marketing Tie-In, Presented By Red Bull
posted by kmz at 7:31 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kmz at 7:31 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
N.K. Jemisin: An open letter to the WSFS about unintended consequences
posted by Artw at 7:33 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:33 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I actually sort of like the idea of a TV Tropes award.
posted by Artw at 7:34 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:34 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, if you must.
I think it's dumb, stupid, idiotic, lame, ignorant and those are its good points.
Basically, it fails the 10/10 test.
Give me 10 good nominees over the last 10 years, then I'd consider it.
This? This fails badly. This fails worse than the USWNT midfield does right now.
Also:
1) Works should only get one try at a Hugo, this gives a work a try every time a new book comes out in the series.
2) Works should only get a try at the Hugo when they're finished, this gives them a try every time a new book comes out.
3) This discourages authors from finishing series, because that ends eligibility for the Saga Hugo.
4) Right now, this is the Old White Man Hugo, that being the primary author of these sorts of works.
I'll stop. Stupidest category ever. I'm going to stop using Best SMOF as my goto bad Hugo example and start using this.
The funny thing is I'm actually all for combining Novelette and Novella. There are clearly Novels, and Short Stories, and something in-between them. There are not two somethings.
But the reality is if you try to do this, the authors will show up at the ratification vote and kill the proposal. You'll pry that Hugo from their cold dead hands. So, why try? And, you know, I don't blame them for this, and it's not wrong of them to stand up for their award. So, while I personally think the spilt is a bad one, it is what it is, and, as has been famously said, politics is the art of the possible. This isn't possible, and we will have Novelette and Novella. Maybe we should tweak the numbers, though, given that Novels are much longer than they were when we set them lo those many years ago, but there will always be the big four writing Hugos.
Now, trying to kill Best Novelette inside this proposal? That was dumb, and it died the death it deserved, because I fully expected the whole thing to getOTC'd postponed indefinitely right off the agenda. Now? Well... actually I expect that to happen anyway.
posted by eriko at 7:36 AM on June 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think it's dumb, stupid, idiotic, lame, ignorant and those are its good points.
Basically, it fails the 10/10 test.
Give me 10 good nominees over the last 10 years, then I'd consider it.
This? This fails badly. This fails worse than the USWNT midfield does right now.
Also:
1) Works should only get one try at a Hugo, this gives a work a try every time a new book comes out in the series.
2) Works should only get a try at the Hugo when they're finished, this gives them a try every time a new book comes out.
3) This discourages authors from finishing series, because that ends eligibility for the Saga Hugo.
4) Right now, this is the Old White Man Hugo, that being the primary author of these sorts of works.
I'll stop. Stupidest category ever. I'm going to stop using Best SMOF as my goto bad Hugo example and start using this.
The funny thing is I'm actually all for combining Novelette and Novella. There are clearly Novels, and Short Stories, and something in-between them. There are not two somethings.
But the reality is if you try to do this, the authors will show up at the ratification vote and kill the proposal. You'll pry that Hugo from their cold dead hands. So, why try? And, you know, I don't blame them for this, and it's not wrong of them to stand up for their award. So, while I personally think the spilt is a bad one, it is what it is, and, as has been famously said, politics is the art of the possible. This isn't possible, and we will have Novelette and Novella. Maybe we should tweak the numbers, though, given that Novels are much longer than they were when we set them lo those many years ago, but there will always be the big four writing Hugos.
Now, trying to kill Best Novelette inside this proposal? That was dumb, and it died the death it deserved, because I fully expected the whole thing to get
posted by eriko at 7:36 AM on June 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
Are Hugo voters expected to read entire nominated sagas, possibly five of them, before voting?
posted by puddledork at 7:36 AM on June 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by puddledork at 7:36 AM on June 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
Best Marketing Tie-In, Presented By Red Bull
Ooh, are we doing this? I loved this.
Best Hugo Slate.
posted by eriko at 7:36 AM on June 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ooh, are we doing this? I loved this.
Best Hugo Slate.
posted by eriko at 7:36 AM on June 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
What a coincidence, Hugo Slate is actually the protagonist in my new space rock opera saga.
posted by Wolfdog at 7:37 AM on June 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Wolfdog at 7:37 AM on June 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
It does avoid the Wheel of Time problem, or at least shunt it off to another category...
posted by Artw at 7:38 AM on June 24, 2015
posted by Artw at 7:38 AM on June 24, 2015
I love a good saga, but there are so many problems with this. I think any sort of award for a saga should be along the lines of "lifetime achievement award for having told a really long, but really good, story" or something, which makes it Not A Hugo.
posted by Foosnark at 7:46 AM on June 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 7:46 AM on June 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
If you want to keep current on this and see any future posts on the saga proposal (and the puppies), read File 770. Mike Glyer does an excellent round out of blogs about the Hugos on a daily basis.
posted by Hactar at 7:46 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 7:46 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
eriko --
Bearing in mind I am not at all a big fan of this proposal:
> "Give me 10 good nominees over the last 10 years, then I'd consider it."
If they lower the wordcount to 240,000 and allow for ongoing as well as complete series, I'm actually pretty sure I could do this. I certainly could for the couple of years I bothered to check.
> "Works should only get one try at a Hugo, this gives a work a try every time a new book comes out in the series."
Out of curiosity, would you have this objection if they changed it so any given subset of books could only be nominated once? (E.g., if the first four books of A Song of Fire and Ice get nominated, they can never get nominated again. Books 5-7 could be nominated when they come out, but only books 5-7 independently of the first four.)
posted by kyrademon at 7:48 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Bearing in mind I am not at all a big fan of this proposal:
> "Give me 10 good nominees over the last 10 years, then I'd consider it."
If they lower the wordcount to 240,000 and allow for ongoing as well as complete series, I'm actually pretty sure I could do this. I certainly could for the couple of years I bothered to check.
> "Works should only get one try at a Hugo, this gives a work a try every time a new book comes out in the series."
Out of curiosity, would you have this objection if they changed it so any given subset of books could only be nominated once? (E.g., if the first four books of A Song of Fire and Ice get nominated, they can never get nominated again. Books 5-7 could be nominated when they come out, but only books 5-7 independently of the first four.)
posted by kyrademon at 7:48 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hopefully this means some long overdue recognition for Þórðurs saga. The latest episode (in which Helgi's brother Egil defies the Althing and refuses to pay the weregild for Gisli's Irish thrall) came out just two weeks ago, so it should qualify for contention at next year's Con.
posted by Iridic at 7:48 AM on June 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Iridic at 7:48 AM on June 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
1) Works should only get one try at a Hugo, this gives a work a try every time a new book comes out in the series.
Only if each work is quite long -- the proposal says that any series that's been nominated can only be renominated after it's added another 400,000 words.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:53 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Only if each work is quite long -- the proposal says that any series that's been nominated can only be renominated after it's added another 400,000 words.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:53 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I favour James Nicoll's proposal (on his blog) that the winner of the Best Saga award should be decided by the outcome of a death match between the shortlisted authors using the hardcopy books as weapons.
I have put forward my own amendment to this proposal, permitting the use of very small trebuchets.
(In case it isn't obvious, I have given the Best Saga Hugo proposal the due consideration it deserved and found it wanting.)
posted by cstross at 7:55 AM on June 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
I have put forward my own amendment to this proposal, permitting the use of very small trebuchets.
(In case it isn't obvious, I have given the Best Saga Hugo proposal the due consideration it deserved and found it wanting.)
posted by cstross at 7:55 AM on June 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
What is "SMOF"?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:56 AM on June 24, 2015
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:56 AM on June 24, 2015
^ Yes, to all those graphic novels (though I didn't like Rat Queens as much as I hoped I would.^
posted by Kitteh at 8:02 AM on June 24, 2015
posted by Kitteh at 8:02 AM on June 24, 2015
If they lower the wordcount to 240,000 and allow for ongoing as well as complete series, I'm actually pretty sure I could do this. I certainly could for the couple of years I bothered to check.
Well, except you're missing my "only one try" objection with that.
Out of curiosity, would you have this objection if they changed it so any given subset of books could only be nominated once?
Yes, because it's basically unworkable in the minds of the voters. You can say you're only nominating 5-7 of ASoIaF, but almost everybody will be thinking of the entire work when the go to vote.
And, of course, somebody will also nominate ASoIaF as a whole as a serialized Novel, so you could see 1-7 there and 5-7 in Saga in the same year!
I have put forward my own amendment to this proposal, permitting the use of very small trebuchets.
Moved: That the works be on fire.
posted by eriko at 8:03 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well, except you're missing my "only one try" objection with that.
Out of curiosity, would you have this objection if they changed it so any given subset of books could only be nominated once?
Yes, because it's basically unworkable in the minds of the voters. You can say you're only nominating 5-7 of ASoIaF, but almost everybody will be thinking of the entire work when the go to vote.
And, of course, somebody will also nominate ASoIaF as a whole as a serialized Novel, so you could see 1-7 there and 5-7 in Saga in the same year!
I have put forward my own amendment to this proposal, permitting the use of very small trebuchets.
Moved: That the works be on fire.
posted by eriko at 8:03 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Second nominations get to use the first nominated block as additional counterweights.
posted by Artw at 8:05 AM on June 24, 2015
posted by Artw at 8:05 AM on June 24, 2015
Award for Best Saga About the Issues with the Hugo Awards
posted by nubs at 8:15 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by nubs at 8:15 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I actually think there is an argument to be made for some kind of "Best Series" award. I think this proposal going up way before it was Ready for Prime Time actually ending up doing a disservice to the concept. There are a lot of very fundamental questions around the idea of a Best Series award that the proposal kind of ignored until people started saying, "Hey!" Questions like, how exactly are we defining a series, what qualifies, what doesn't, how do we keep it from overlapping with Best Novel, how do we solve the practical concerns of voting on it, and once we've defined our terms are there enough candidates to merit the award in the first place?
I honestly doubt they're going to be solved in time for the business meeting (especially since it is entirely possible that the answers would turn out to be we can't, we don't know that, we don't know that either, we can't, we can't, and no.)
posted by kyrademon at 8:23 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I honestly doubt they're going to be solved in time for the business meeting (especially since it is entirely possible that the answers would turn out to be we can't, we don't know that, we don't know that either, we can't, we can't, and no.)
posted by kyrademon at 8:23 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
But really. The books are eligible as novels. Large scope novels are eligible as a serialized work when they're finished, like WoT and ASoIaF, and if they're not finished, they THEY AREN'T, AS IT SHOULD BE.
Oh, and one more thing.
If they lower the wordcount to 240,000 and allow for ongoing as well as complete series, I'm actually pretty sure I could do this. I certainly could for the couple of years I bothered to check.
Note that then 10/10 test isn't 10 eligible works. It's 10 *Hugo Worthy* works. I'd expect to find at least 50 eligible works. If you're having trouble finding 10 eligible works, that category is dead on arrival.
I need to find 10 works that I would have no problem handing the award to -- that's a healthy category. Other people, of course, will find a different list, which is why I want to see 10 -- that way, I'm pretty sure that at least three are probably Hugo-worthy to a large majority of the nominating population, not just me. A big part of the 10/10 test is that I also don't have to spend a lot of time finding them, because there are enough of them out there. Unless the realm is very new to me, if a category is going to pass the 10/10 test, it's going to pass in less than a day if I'm dealing with familiar works, like I was with Best Saga, and Best Saga didn't.
And it gets vastly worse if a category becomes ineligible if it is nominated and loses until it adds another 400K words! Then the number of Hugo Worthy Sagas disappears in basically two years.(in my opinion, of course.)
If that's not true -- if a saga can keep getting nominated until it wins, then the category is a complete joke! It's basically write enough books in that Saga and get your Hugo, eventually.
But, hey, cstross, enjoy your Laundry Hugo, because at some point, you'll get one, if only by default.
"The Hugo for Best Saga That Hasn't Won Yet goes to....."
posted by eriko at 8:24 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh, and one more thing.
If they lower the wordcount to 240,000 and allow for ongoing as well as complete series, I'm actually pretty sure I could do this. I certainly could for the couple of years I bothered to check.
Note that then 10/10 test isn't 10 eligible works. It's 10 *Hugo Worthy* works. I'd expect to find at least 50 eligible works. If you're having trouble finding 10 eligible works, that category is dead on arrival.
I need to find 10 works that I would have no problem handing the award to -- that's a healthy category. Other people, of course, will find a different list, which is why I want to see 10 -- that way, I'm pretty sure that at least three are probably Hugo-worthy to a large majority of the nominating population, not just me. A big part of the 10/10 test is that I also don't have to spend a lot of time finding them, because there are enough of them out there. Unless the realm is very new to me, if a category is going to pass the 10/10 test, it's going to pass in less than a day if I'm dealing with familiar works, like I was with Best Saga, and Best Saga didn't.
And it gets vastly worse if a category becomes ineligible if it is nominated and loses until it adds another 400K words! Then the number of Hugo Worthy Sagas disappears in basically two years.(in my opinion, of course.)
If that's not true -- if a saga can keep getting nominated until it wins, then the category is a complete joke! It's basically write enough books in that Saga and get your Hugo, eventually.
But, hey, cstross, enjoy your Laundry Hugo, because at some point, you'll get one, if only by default.
"The Hugo for Best Saga That Hasn't Won Yet goes to....."
posted by eriko at 8:24 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best Hugo Complaint.
(I knew I'd win a Hugo someday.)
posted by eriko at 8:24 AM on June 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
(I knew I'd win a Hugo someday.)
posted by eriko at 8:24 AM on June 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
> "Note that then 10/10 test isn't 10 eligible works. It's 10 *Hugo Worthy* works."
I understood that. If you want, when I have a little more time, I can post my lists for the couple of years I checked. (Once again bearing in mind I am not a big fan of this award for other reasons.)
posted by kyrademon at 8:29 AM on June 24, 2015
I understood that. If you want, when I have a little more time, I can post my lists for the couple of years I checked. (Once again bearing in mind I am not a big fan of this award for other reasons.)
posted by kyrademon at 8:29 AM on June 24, 2015
"The Hugo for Best Saga That Hasn't Won Yet goes to....."
You are definitely right. There aren't nearly enough competitors for this to be a good award category. (Maybe you could do it like every ten years!)
A related problem is that, if a writer is successfully publishing "sagas", they're already a major genre success. Nothing wrong with recognizing masters who are also popular -- but when you combine this with the paucity of eligible competitors, this looks much more like an anointment than an award.
(I think there are too many Hugos already. For me, the profusion is so great that I habitually ignore everything but the Novel category. If there was just one short-form and one long-form award, I might get something out of both categories. If there's even more categories, I'm going to get less out of them.)
posted by grobstein at 8:35 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
You are definitely right. There aren't nearly enough competitors for this to be a good award category. (Maybe you could do it like every ten years!)
A related problem is that, if a writer is successfully publishing "sagas", they're already a major genre success. Nothing wrong with recognizing masters who are also popular -- but when you combine this with the paucity of eligible competitors, this looks much more like an anointment than an award.
(I think there are too many Hugos already. For me, the profusion is so great that I habitually ignore everything but the Novel category. If there was just one short-form and one long-form award, I might get something out of both categories. If there's even more categories, I'm going to get less out of them.)
posted by grobstein at 8:35 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am totally, absolutely, 100% in favor of a Best Saga Award, with the sole caveat that all eligible sagas must be composed in Old Norse. If people find that too broad, I'm also open to a separate award for Best Bishop's Saga In The Style of the North Icelandic Benedictine School.
posted by koeselitz at 8:38 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by koeselitz at 8:38 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Old Mans War stories are currently going out as ebooks that I think could be novelettes (I am hazy on Hugo sizes), which then get stitched together as A.E. Van Vogt style fix-up novels and all together they constitute a "saga", so that's a three-fer.
posted by Artw at 8:40 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:40 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I... would actually go for some of that. Maybe not for the Hugos, but I'd love to see a "best fake language" contest.
There have been such contests, but they're much better in the original Klingon.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:41 AM on June 24, 2015
There have been such contests, but they're much better in the original Klingon.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:41 AM on June 24, 2015
The Old Mans War stories are currently going out as ebooks that I think could be novelettes
IIRC (jscalzi, if you're reading, please do correct me if I'm wrong), they're novelettes, and he deliberately pulled them from eligibility as novelettes in favor of the entire work being eligible as a Novel when he did this with the last book in this series, which is released in a similar fashion.
Again, though, that's my recollection. I could be wrong.
(aside: One of my favorite pics is a certain award winning mefite's shit-eating grin as he holds his first big award and his wife is giving him her best "he's so fine" look, and no, it's not jscalzi.)
posted by eriko at 8:54 AM on June 24, 2015
IIRC (jscalzi, if you're reading, please do correct me if I'm wrong), they're novelettes, and he deliberately pulled them from eligibility as novelettes in favor of the entire work being eligible as a Novel when he did this with the last book in this series, which is released in a similar fashion.
Again, though, that's my recollection. I could be wrong.
(aside: One of my favorite pics is a certain award winning mefite's shit-eating grin as he holds his first big award and his wife is giving him her best "he's so fine" look, and no, it's not jscalzi.)
posted by eriko at 8:54 AM on June 24, 2015
Best First Volume in a Saga
Best Most Disappointing Second Novel in a Saga
Best Realization that a Saga has Actually Held It Together
Best Saga Filler
Best Saga Finale
Best Followup to a Saga You Thought Was Completed
Best Saga Prequel
Best Promotional Saga Material
Best Hyped Saga
Best Saga That Got Optioned Before Completion
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:54 AM on June 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
Best Most Disappointing Second Novel in a Saga
Best Realization that a Saga has Actually Held It Together
Best Saga Filler
Best Saga Finale
Best Followup to a Saga You Thought Was Completed
Best Saga Prequel
Best Promotional Saga Material
Best Hyped Saga
Best Saga That Got Optioned Before Completion
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:54 AM on June 24, 2015 [14 favorites]
Artw: "What would the winners of Best Saga Award look like? "
It would look like Saga, obviously.
posted by signal at 9:01 AM on June 24, 2015
It would look like Saga, obviously.
posted by signal at 9:01 AM on June 24, 2015
And, of course, somebody will also nominate ASoIaF as a whole as a serialized Novel, so you could see 1-7 there and 5-7 in Saga in the same year!
I assume this would be disallowed, just like a TV show can't be nominated overall in best longform and have an episode in best shortform.
posted by jeather at 9:02 AM on June 24, 2015
I assume this would be disallowed, just like a TV show can't be nominated overall in best longform and have an episode in best shortform.
posted by jeather at 9:02 AM on June 24, 2015
These are a little hard to dig up since I didn't write them down in any one place, but anyway, here would have been my "10 Hugo-worthy Sagas" for the 2015 Hugos. I am going by the rule of thumb "series (broadly defined) with at least three books, the latest of which was published in 2014". I am ignoring the word count for the moment since they are lowering it by some unknown amount, but I will note that under the silly-high wordcount they originally were going with a good chunk of these would indeed not have qualified.
The Dagger and the Coin Series, Daniel Abraham
Eternal Sky Trilogy, Elizabeth Bear
Foreigner Series Arc 5, C. J. Cherryh
Craft Sequence, Max Gladstone
The Magicians Trilogy, Lev Grossman
Kencyrath Novels, P. C. Hodgell
A Land Fit for Heroes Trilogy, Richard Morgan
Stormlight Archives, Brandon Sanderson (I'm allowing it because it was published as more than two books in some places)
Daughter of Smoke and Bone Trilogy, Laini Taylor
The Southern Reach Trilogy, Jeff Vandermeer
I am leaving off a number of popular or award-nominated series, including some I like a great deal, that I personally did not think were Hugo-worthy -- including the Grisha Trilogy by Leigh Bardugo, the Lynburn Legacy Trilogy by Sarah Rees Brennan, the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher, the Mercy Thompson Series by Patricia Briggs, and the Cassandra Kresnov Series by Joel Shepherd.
I also left off some that were arguably Hugo worthy but are definitionally problematic, such as Robin Hobb -- does Fool's Assassin count as the start of a new trilogy or part of the ongoing Rain Wild Chronicles? ... And Garth Nix -- is Clariel a stand-alone book or part of the Abhorsen series?
posted by kyrademon at 9:04 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Dagger and the Coin Series, Daniel Abraham
Eternal Sky Trilogy, Elizabeth Bear
Foreigner Series Arc 5, C. J. Cherryh
Craft Sequence, Max Gladstone
The Magicians Trilogy, Lev Grossman
Kencyrath Novels, P. C. Hodgell
A Land Fit for Heroes Trilogy, Richard Morgan
Stormlight Archives, Brandon Sanderson (I'm allowing it because it was published as more than two books in some places)
Daughter of Smoke and Bone Trilogy, Laini Taylor
The Southern Reach Trilogy, Jeff Vandermeer
I am leaving off a number of popular or award-nominated series, including some I like a great deal, that I personally did not think were Hugo-worthy -- including the Grisha Trilogy by Leigh Bardugo, the Lynburn Legacy Trilogy by Sarah Rees Brennan, the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher, the Mercy Thompson Series by Patricia Briggs, and the Cassandra Kresnov Series by Joel Shepherd.
I also left off some that were arguably Hugo worthy but are definitionally problematic, such as Robin Hobb -- does Fool's Assassin count as the start of a new trilogy or part of the ongoing Rain Wild Chronicles? ... And Garth Nix -- is Clariel a stand-alone book or part of the Abhorsen series?
posted by kyrademon at 9:04 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Kevin J Anderson Award for Posthumous Saga Extension
* Winning works are erased from human memory and jettisoned into the sun.
posted by kmz at 9:11 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
* Winning works are erased from human memory and jettisoned into the sun.
posted by kmz at 9:11 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
For the 2014 Hugos, my 10 "Best Saga" possibilities are:
Oryx and Crake Trilogy, Margaret Atwood
Expanse Series, James SA Corey
Spiritwalker Trilogy, Kate Elliott
The Rain Wild Chronicles, Robin Hobb
The Wheel of Time Series, Robert Jordan / Brandon Sanderson
Gentleman Bastard Sequence, Scott Lynch
Divergent Series, Veronica Roth
Old Man's War Series, John Scalzi
Faerie Trilogy, Jamie Lee Simner
Tower and Knife Trilogy, Mazarkis Williams
I left off The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen R. Donaldson, and Terry Pratchett's Moist Von Lipwig novels (although Discworld as a whole I'd probably put up there.)
I will admit I did not look back further than 2014. Nonetheless, I am reasonably sure I could find 10 nominees in previous years under the very broad definition Best Saga may be shaping up to have.
However, I will reiterate that I think the definition is bad and problematic in many other ways including doubling with Best Novel, allowing for renomination, being potentially unreadable for voters, being broad enough to be confusing, and immediately dropping below a reasonable pool of candidates if the definition is narrowed in pretty much any way (including if it was as narrow as originally proposed.)
posted by kyrademon at 9:32 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oryx and Crake Trilogy, Margaret Atwood
Expanse Series, James SA Corey
Spiritwalker Trilogy, Kate Elliott
The Rain Wild Chronicles, Robin Hobb
The Wheel of Time Series, Robert Jordan / Brandon Sanderson
Gentleman Bastard Sequence, Scott Lynch
Divergent Series, Veronica Roth
Old Man's War Series, John Scalzi
Faerie Trilogy, Jamie Lee Simner
Tower and Knife Trilogy, Mazarkis Williams
I left off The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen R. Donaldson, and Terry Pratchett's Moist Von Lipwig novels (although Discworld as a whole I'd probably put up there.)
I will admit I did not look back further than 2014. Nonetheless, I am reasonably sure I could find 10 nominees in previous years under the very broad definition Best Saga may be shaping up to have.
However, I will reiterate that I think the definition is bad and problematic in many other ways including doubling with Best Novel, allowing for renomination, being potentially unreadable for voters, being broad enough to be confusing, and immediately dropping below a reasonable pool of candidates if the definition is narrowed in pretty much any way (including if it was as narrow as originally proposed.)
posted by kyrademon at 9:32 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Adding to kyrademon's list, I know 2014 also saw new releases for Vlad Taltos, The Last Policeman, Tales of the Ketty Jay (UK 2013), Books of the Raksura, and the Kingkiller Chronicles--the last two being triggered by short fiction releases, which the first draft of the saga rules seemed to allow. I'm not saying I'd choose all of them, but they have devoted fans. Put me in the camp that doesn't keep up with enough sagas to be able to judge their relative merits when five appear on the ballot together.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 9:47 AM on June 24, 2015
posted by Monsieur Caution at 9:47 AM on June 24, 2015
I'd like to see an award for the most apostrophes used to spell the name of a planet or an alien race.
posted by Ratio at 9:49 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ratio at 9:49 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best Hugo For Forcing Me To Go To The Goddamn WSFS Business Meeting Instead Of Allowing Me To Enjoy My Hangover In Peace.
posted by RakDaddy at 10:20 AM on June 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by RakDaddy at 10:20 AM on June 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
The criteria for Hugo categories isn't fixed, it can be modified at the discretion of the WorldCon committees http://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-faq/ :
"The list of categories for which the Hugos have been awarded has changed frequently down the years. The categories that exist now are ones that have proven to work well and provide reasonable competition. But new categories are sometimes added, and old ones sometimes removed. Changing the categories requires that a motion to do so be passed at the WSFS Business Meeting at two successive Worldcons. Anyone attending a Worldcon can propose a motion to the Business Meeting. However, if you wish to do so you would be advised to consult the Chairman or Parliamentarian of that year’s Business Meeting for advice as to the appropriate wording.
"To create a viable new category, it needs to include enough first-rate works that there will be five worthy nominees each year, and it needs to be sufficiently universal that most people nominating and voting for the Hugos could intelligently make choices. So, for example, Best Proofreader would fail because few voters are in a position to pass judgment as they never see books before the proofreader has worked on them."
posted by Blackanvil at 10:37 AM on June 24, 2015
"The list of categories for which the Hugos have been awarded has changed frequently down the years. The categories that exist now are ones that have proven to work well and provide reasonable competition. But new categories are sometimes added, and old ones sometimes removed. Changing the categories requires that a motion to do so be passed at the WSFS Business Meeting at two successive Worldcons. Anyone attending a Worldcon can propose a motion to the Business Meeting. However, if you wish to do so you would be advised to consult the Chairman or Parliamentarian of that year’s Business Meeting for advice as to the appropriate wording.
"To create a viable new category, it needs to include enough first-rate works that there will be five worthy nominees each year, and it needs to be sufficiently universal that most people nominating and voting for the Hugos could intelligently make choices. So, for example, Best Proofreader would fail because few voters are in a position to pass judgment as they never see books before the proofreader has worked on them."
posted by Blackanvil at 10:37 AM on June 24, 2015
"I'm sorry, Mr. Hedgehog, the category is Best SAGA, not Best SEGA."
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:44 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:44 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure Saga would be up for best Saga anymore. It's been kind of dragging for a while, frankly.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:53 AM on June 24, 2015
posted by Sangermaine at 10:53 AM on June 24, 2015
Terry Pratchett's Moist Von Lipwig novels (although Discworld as a whole I'd probably put up there
There's an interesting case.
Would (assuming enough words) you be able to nominate...
The Witches Saga
The Guards Saga
The Tiffany Aching Saga
AND The Discworld Saga
A new Tiffany Aching book is coming out next year. If it has Sam Vimes and Granny Weatherwax, you could theoretically nominate ALL FOUR of those, right?
As to kyradaemon's list:
I'm assuming you are asserting that you find them all Hugoworthy. Now, the thing is, you have to start 10 years ago. Find 10, and then go forward. When you do so, you can't use the ones you already have used, not until they get another 400K word in and become eligible again! So, many of those may have been already awarded, or been on your shortlist and thus not able to be shortlisted again until they publish enough to get back on the list.
And that's what makes this category such a train wreck. "Wait, I forget, how many more words until aSoIaF is eligible again?"
It's either that or they can keep trying again and again and again until everyone gets a Hugo, in which case, kill it with fire, then hit it with fluorine so it will burn again.
This is completely different than EVERY other Hugo category, which (in this case, since we're talking the 2014 awards), where you look at the copyright page, go "Yep, published 2013, GOOD" and there you go" except for the few that get a retry based on business meeting motions. Note that now things not published in the US now have a two year eligibility window -- they have for a while by motion, it is now formally granted in the WSFS constitution.
posted by eriko at 10:54 AM on June 24, 2015
There's an interesting case.
Would (assuming enough words) you be able to nominate...
The Witches Saga
The Guards Saga
The Tiffany Aching Saga
AND The Discworld Saga
A new Tiffany Aching book is coming out next year. If it has Sam Vimes and Granny Weatherwax, you could theoretically nominate ALL FOUR of those, right?
As to kyradaemon's list:
I'm assuming you are asserting that you find them all Hugoworthy. Now, the thing is, you have to start 10 years ago. Find 10, and then go forward. When you do so, you can't use the ones you already have used, not until they get another 400K word in and become eligible again! So, many of those may have been already awarded, or been on your shortlist and thus not able to be shortlisted again until they publish enough to get back on the list.
And that's what makes this category such a train wreck. "Wait, I forget, how many more words until aSoIaF is eligible again?"
It's either that or they can keep trying again and again and again until everyone gets a Hugo, in which case, kill it with fire, then hit it with fluorine so it will burn again.
This is completely different than EVERY other Hugo category, which (in this case, since we're talking the 2014 awards), where you look at the copyright page, go "Yep, published 2013, GOOD" and there you go" except for the few that get a retry based on business meeting motions. Note that now things not published in the US now have a two year eligibility window -- they have for a while by motion, it is now formally granted in the WSFS constitution.
posted by eriko at 10:54 AM on June 24, 2015
I'm not sure Saga would be up for best Saga anymore. It's been kind of dragging for a while, frankly.
Double page spread in latest issue...
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on June 24, 2015
Double page spread in latest issue...
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on June 24, 2015
There are also 2 (I assume) works by Seanan McGuire eligible last year (October Daye definitely, Incryptid maybe only 2015, her books aren't that long). I believe the Earth Girl trilogy finished last year, the Sarah Rees Brennan trilogy, that godawful Kiera Cass trilogy which people inexplicably adore, I am fairly sure I could find a lot of SFF YA trilogies that finished last year if I thought about it longer. They won't win because voters mostly don't like YA, but there are lots of excellent ones.
Also if we brought the wordcount down to 300k, I believe the novel Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell would have been eligible as a saga on its own; certainly her followup work would have been.
posted by jeather at 11:18 AM on June 24, 2015
Also if we brought the wordcount down to 300k, I believe the novel Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell would have been eligible as a saga on its own; certainly her followup work would have been.
posted by jeather at 11:18 AM on June 24, 2015
Double page spread in latest issue...
Artw
I know what you're referring to, but I actually feel like that's part of it. Those double-page spreads have become a gimmick they're relying on to prop up some weak issues.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:20 AM on June 24, 2015
Artw
I know what you're referring to, but I actually feel like that's part of it. Those double-page spreads have become a gimmick they're relying on to prop up some weak issues.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:20 AM on June 24, 2015
I'm not sure I understand the 10 good series per year goalpost. I understand just 5 series would be removed from consideration per year, so if you start with 10 Hugo-worthy series 10 years ago, you have a good chance of still being able to consider 5 of them in the year immediately following, if they publish anything at all (even a short story, if I'm reading the original proposal correctly). And in many cases, previously nominated series will re-enter the pool when they add substantial word count.
It doesn't seem hard to come up with possibilities I've heard rasfw/MeFi folks talking about favorably. Just looking at 2014 again, there's the Glamourist Histories, Nightrunner, maybe Jean Le Flambeur (not sure about word count there), and maybe one of Neal Asher's series (not sure when his 2013 release came out in the US). I also suspect a goal of this award might be to recognize how many people are reading epic and urban fantasy which have modest impact per volume but generate a ton of interest as a whole.
I don't think it's a super well-formed proposal, and I bet it'd be like the editor awards--not very well-informed across the whole range of possibilities. But there are a lot of popular series out there, and one feeling I get from the proposal is it might change what Hugo-worthy means to include more straight up comfort reads that a lot of people happen to like.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 11:39 AM on June 24, 2015
It doesn't seem hard to come up with possibilities I've heard rasfw/MeFi folks talking about favorably. Just looking at 2014 again, there's the Glamourist Histories, Nightrunner, maybe Jean Le Flambeur (not sure about word count there), and maybe one of Neal Asher's series (not sure when his 2013 release came out in the US). I also suspect a goal of this award might be to recognize how many people are reading epic and urban fantasy which have modest impact per volume but generate a ton of interest as a whole.
I don't think it's a super well-formed proposal, and I bet it'd be like the editor awards--not very well-informed across the whole range of possibilities. But there are a lot of popular series out there, and one feeling I get from the proposal is it might change what Hugo-worthy means to include more straight up comfort reads that a lot of people happen to like.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 11:39 AM on June 24, 2015
jeather: the Incryptid books are around 100,000 words each, so it's over 400K already. As Seanan emits somewhere north of half a million words of SF/F per year she's got everyone beat except maybe Harry Turtledove.
Also, how do you handle stuff like ASH: A Secret History by Mary Gentle? Written as a single novel, published as a 1400 page book in the UK, chopped into four separate novels by Del Rey when they published it in the US market? Is it a novel or a saga?
posted by cstross at 11:41 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, how do you handle stuff like ASH: A Secret History by Mary Gentle? Written as a single novel, published as a 1400 page book in the UK, chopped into four separate novels by Del Rey when they published it in the US market? Is it a novel or a saga?
posted by cstross at 11:41 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hanging out on /r/fantasy has taught me that there are only three sagas worth talking about: Middle-Earth, Wheel of Time, and Malazan. I have no idea what Malazan is about except for the fact that it is apparently all things to all people, except for "brief".
I should stop hanging out there.
"Life's too short to read sagas", she says, quietly pushing the copy of the second Book of the New Sun omnibus behind her with a foot.
posted by egypturnash at 11:44 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I should stop hanging out there.
"Life's too short to read sagas", she says, quietly pushing the copy of the second Book of the New Sun omnibus behind her with a foot.
posted by egypturnash at 11:44 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I find it amusing that a few years back there were a bunch of Big Fantasy Novel purists having a shit-fit about GoT being too dark and now it's the biggest thing ever.
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on June 24, 2015
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on June 24, 2015
eriko, I mostly don't disagree. Literally my only point was that I'm pretty sure finding 10 Hugo-worthy series to nominate per year would actually be doable within broad but not unreasonable constraints.
Whether there is any way to define, organize, or vote on such a thing in any sensible or reasonable manner are different issues that I have serious doubts about.
posted by kyrademon at 12:21 PM on June 24, 2015
Whether there is any way to define, organize, or vote on such a thing in any sensible or reasonable manner are different issues that I have serious doubts about.
posted by kyrademon at 12:21 PM on June 24, 2015
the Incryptid books are around 100,000 words each, so it's over 400K already.
I thought the third Incryptid came out in 2014, not the fourth. Could have been mistaken, and on further consideration even if book 3 came out in 2014, she probably makes it up in the many short stories. And if you count Sparrow Hill Road, too, which I had not.
There are a lot of urban fantasy series also (generally not my genre), and I am fairly sure there are also a lot of sff romances out there (also not my genre), and I would bet there are excellent ones that are as award worthy as anything else.
posted by jeather at 12:25 PM on June 24, 2015
I thought the third Incryptid came out in 2014, not the fourth. Could have been mistaken, and on further consideration even if book 3 came out in 2014, she probably makes it up in the many short stories. And if you count Sparrow Hill Road, too, which I had not.
There are a lot of urban fantasy series also (generally not my genre), and I am fairly sure there are also a lot of sff romances out there (also not my genre), and I would bet there are excellent ones that are as award worthy as anything else.
posted by jeather at 12:25 PM on June 24, 2015
anyway the use of the word "saga" to mean "a group of works in a series" is somehow really annoyingly stupid to me, one of those instances where a word was specifically about a particular literary genre, then became very vague, and then was co-opted by sci-fi/fantasy people to mean something ridiculously specific and boring, because apparently it's not sci-fi / fantasy -ish enough to just call a damned series "A SERIES"
posted by koeselitz at 2:20 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by koeselitz at 2:20 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hanging out on /r/fantasy has taught me that there are only three sagas worth talking about: Middle-Earth, Wheel of Time, and Malazan
At a Westercon I attended one year, they had a panel with Tad Williams (Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn); GRRM (A Song of Ice and Fire) and Steven Erikson (Malazan). The topic was something to the effect of "Killing off your Characters for fun and profit: How to do it". Williams was up first and indicated that he wasn't sure why he was on the panel; sure he killed a key character or two off in his work, but he was nothing compared to the other two. Next, Martin said that he knew why he was on the panel, but felt it was unfair to be cast as the writer who delights in killing his characters when he was sitting next to a writer who routinely wipes out entire cities, continents, and civilizations.
To which Erikson said, "Yes, but I don't give all those people names, George."
After that, it actually was a very lively and good discussion in which they discussed their various philosophies and approaches about how and when to kill characters off, particularly if they are major characters in the narrative. And they also discussed other major works of fantasy that they felt were weakened by not killing off characters when the moment seemed right.
Anyways, Malazan. Now there's a set of doorstoppers. Grimdark fantasy; at times very grim and dark. I've read the 10 main books and there's some great moments in there, but I can't say it ever gelled as a whole for me; if anyone is interested, I would recommend reading "Deadhouse Gates" (technically the 2nd book, but really acts well as an entry point) as it probably contains the best moments of the series. If you enjoy that one, then you may want to consider how much of your life you want to invest as I think secondary books are still being created.
posted by nubs at 3:11 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
At a Westercon I attended one year, they had a panel with Tad Williams (Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn); GRRM (A Song of Ice and Fire) and Steven Erikson (Malazan). The topic was something to the effect of "Killing off your Characters for fun and profit: How to do it". Williams was up first and indicated that he wasn't sure why he was on the panel; sure he killed a key character or two off in his work, but he was nothing compared to the other two. Next, Martin said that he knew why he was on the panel, but felt it was unfair to be cast as the writer who delights in killing his characters when he was sitting next to a writer who routinely wipes out entire cities, continents, and civilizations.
To which Erikson said, "Yes, but I don't give all those people names, George."
After that, it actually was a very lively and good discussion in which they discussed their various philosophies and approaches about how and when to kill characters off, particularly if they are major characters in the narrative. And they also discussed other major works of fantasy that they felt were weakened by not killing off characters when the moment seemed right.
Anyways, Malazan. Now there's a set of doorstoppers. Grimdark fantasy; at times very grim and dark. I've read the 10 main books and there's some great moments in there, but I can't say it ever gelled as a whole for me; if anyone is interested, I would recommend reading "Deadhouse Gates" (technically the 2nd book, but really acts well as an entry point) as it probably contains the best moments of the series. If you enjoy that one, then you may want to consider how much of your life you want to invest as I think secondary books are still being created.
posted by nubs at 3:11 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best Saga NO, Combine Novella/Novellete YES!
I liked the first few Expanse books, but hated the last one I read enough to sour on the series.
Can you EXPAND (GET IT?) on why that is? I see liking the books and I see disliking the books (if you have no taste) but I'm not sure I see why you would like the first couple and then hate the next one? They seem of a kind both in tone and quality to me.
posted by Justinian at 5:54 PM on June 24, 2015
I liked the first few Expanse books, but hated the last one I read enough to sour on the series.
Can you EXPAND (GET IT?) on why that is? I see liking the books and I see disliking the books (if you have no taste) but I'm not sure I see why you would like the first couple and then hate the next one? They seem of a kind both in tone and quality to me.
posted by Justinian at 5:54 PM on June 24, 2015
Also this is as good a place as any to mention that I am totally jonesing for FanFare Books to be ready because I need somewhere to talk about SEVENEVES.
posted by Justinian at 5:55 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 5:55 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also this is as good a place as any to mention that I am totally jonesing for FanFare Books to be ready because I need somewhere to talk about SEVENEVES.Word, Justinian; I suspect there are literally centuries of interesting side conversations hidden in that book.
posted by ChrisR at 10:18 PM on June 24, 2015
I'm reading Seveneves right and none of the reviews I've googled complain about the same things I want to complain about, so I too need Fanfare
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:42 AM on June 25, 2015
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:42 AM on June 25, 2015
I decided to start The Affinities instead of Sevenses, I am so love/hate with Stephenson. But maybe I should read Sevenses and then find mefites to complain with.
posted by jeather at 7:11 AM on June 25, 2015
posted by jeather at 7:11 AM on June 25, 2015
Please stop reminding me that I have a copy of Anathem sat on a shelf glaring at me.
posted by Artw at 7:33 AM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:33 AM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I didn't hate Seveneves, but it's just broken. It's like an alternate version of Anathem that spends 75% of the book following abbreviated versions of Proc and Halikaarn and some other saunts through the Terrible Events and the re-founding of the concents and then oh yeah here's Erasmas to give a shit about and the actual plotline in the last quarter.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:41 AM on June 25, 2015
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:41 AM on June 25, 2015
Best Saga NO, Combine Novella/Novellete YES!
I agree with you 100%, Justinian, but the fact is it isn't going to happen -- the authors will come to the business meeting and kill it, and if they are attending members, they have every right to do so.
What I'm increasingly thinking about, though, is that we need to change the boundary numbers for short story/novelette/novella/novel. Novels are much longer these days, so I think we need to push the Novel/Novella border way out and the Novelette/Novella border somewhat out. Short/Novelette is probably fine, though I could see an argument for pulling it in somewhat -- tighter short stories tend to be better ones in my experience.
Please stop reminding me that I have a copy of Anathem sat on a shelf glaring at me.
You know how most Stephenson books are books where he doesn't know how to end the book? This one is one where he doesn't know how to start the book. So he does like 200 pages of world building (which I loved and many hated.) Then the story starts, rolls and ENDS. BOOM. FLAT ENDS. It's AMAZING. Neal Stephenson ended a book.
Or he wrote two books, didn't know how to end either one, and the editor bolted them together and trimmed out the start of one and the not-end of the other. It's a theory.
posted by eriko at 8:57 AM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I agree with you 100%, Justinian, but the fact is it isn't going to happen -- the authors will come to the business meeting and kill it, and if they are attending members, they have every right to do so.
What I'm increasingly thinking about, though, is that we need to change the boundary numbers for short story/novelette/novella/novel. Novels are much longer these days, so I think we need to push the Novel/Novella border way out and the Novelette/Novella border somewhat out. Short/Novelette is probably fine, though I could see an argument for pulling it in somewhat -- tighter short stories tend to be better ones in my experience.
Please stop reminding me that I have a copy of Anathem sat on a shelf glaring at me.
You know how most Stephenson books are books where he doesn't know how to end the book? This one is one where he doesn't know how to start the book. So he does like 200 pages of world building (which I loved and many hated.) Then the story starts, rolls and ENDS. BOOM. FLAT ENDS. It's AMAZING. Neal Stephenson ended a book.
Or he wrote two books, didn't know how to end either one, and the editor bolted them together and trimmed out the start of one and the not-end of the other. It's a theory.
posted by eriko at 8:57 AM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm also cool with complaining about the wasted premise of The Affinities now.
posted by jeather at 11:29 AM on June 25, 2015
posted by jeather at 11:29 AM on June 25, 2015
From the 770 roundup;
Catherynne Valente
@catvalente
If the Best Saga Hugo is about following the market, I fail to see why the Best YA Hugo wouldn't come first.
2:47 PM - 24 Jun 2015
posted by Artw at 11:34 AM on June 25, 2015
Catherynne Valente
@catvalente
If the Best Saga Hugo is about following the market, I fail to see why the Best YA Hugo wouldn't come first.
2:47 PM - 24 Jun 2015
posted by Artw at 11:34 AM on June 25, 2015
You can't ever satisfactorily define YA. The argument for having a YA category anyway is that it would work the same way the Hugos as a whole work with regard to the definition of SFF. If enough people vote for book x as the best sff novel of the year, then it must be sff. The problem with treating YA like this is that any given book could fall into either the non-YA or the YA category. Some voters will nominate it in one category, some in the other. The only way to avoid that is collusion. This just makes the nominations easier to game overall for those who want to do so, because non-slate voters are now potentially dividing up their noms over two categories.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:48 AM on June 25, 2015
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:48 AM on June 25, 2015
I'm also cool with complaining about the wasted premise of The Affinities now.
Holy shit, Robert Charles Wilson wrote a new book and no one told me? Should I prepare to be disappointed?
posted by grobstein at 1:56 PM on June 25, 2015
Holy shit, Robert Charles Wilson wrote a new book and no one told me? Should I prepare to be disappointed?
posted by grobstein at 1:56 PM on June 25, 2015
(Did RCW decide he was done recapitulating Olaf Stapledon (Blind Lake, Darwinia, Spin, Axis, Vortex)?)
posted by grobstein at 2:02 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by grobstein at 2:02 PM on June 25, 2015
It isn't a bad book, it just isn't as good as I hoped it would be. It's got this cool premise and it doesn't explore it except in one very narrow direction.
posted by jeather at 2:02 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by jeather at 2:02 PM on June 25, 2015
Couldn't disagree more; I think it belongs on next year's Hugo shortlist.
posted by Justinian at 2:29 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by Justinian at 2:29 PM on June 25, 2015
Yeah, I think I was advocating for a "Best Series', I'll probably vote for this at the Business Meeting. Some writers really only hit their stride once the series starts going, but they then don't get noms for subsequent books because the barrier to entry is higher.
posted by corb at 4:36 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by corb at 4:36 PM on June 25, 2015
A Best Saga Hugo: An Imagined Winner’s List, 2005-2014
In general a pretty likeable lot, though some awards there for series that peaked decades ago. Still not convinced this isn't an overly optimistic view, either.
posted by Artw at 5:44 PM on June 25, 2015
In general a pretty likeable lot, though some awards there for series that peaked decades ago. Still not convinced this isn't an overly optimistic view, either.
posted by Artw at 5:44 PM on June 25, 2015
In general a pretty likeable lot, though some awards there for series that peaked decades ago
And that's another reason I hate it. It's a body-of-work award, and I hate those. The only reason we tolerate that in Best Pro/Fan Artist is that (until very recently) there was no practical was to do Best Artwork, and even now, it's still very hard.
Yes, the Discworld saga would have been eligible in 2010 -- but the work that would have made it eligible was the not very good unless you understood football and by that I mean soccer Unseen Academicals, which in no way was getting a best novel nomination. In 2010, however, the vastly better I Shall Wear Midnight comes out and probably makes the Tiffany Aching saga eligible in its own right -- but that would be the 2011 award.
And, again, I could be a jerk and nominate, in 2010, the Pratchett Rincewind saga and Guards saga and Discworld saga based on Unseen Academicals, and if I can get enough people to join in, they should all count, because that book extends all three of those sagas!
And hell, let's say Discworld wins 2010. Tell me to my face that makes the Tiffany Aching saga ineligible in 2011 after I Shall Wear Midnight is released? And then we might be able to nominate the Guards saga again in 2015 after the 2013 release of Raising Steam! (Not sure of the word counts, though.)
AND IT'S THE SAME BODY OF WORK!
Like I said. It's dumb, stupid, idiotic, lame, ignorant and those are its good points. And apparently, the current version drops the word requirement to 240K, which is, what, two novels anymore? So basically, every other book for most authors?
If this thing passes somehow, I'm giving up on the Hugos as a useful award. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure this won't pass. It's just too full of dumb.
posted by eriko at 7:06 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
And that's another reason I hate it. It's a body-of-work award, and I hate those. The only reason we tolerate that in Best Pro/Fan Artist is that (until very recently) there was no practical was to do Best Artwork, and even now, it's still very hard.
Yes, the Discworld saga would have been eligible in 2010 -- but the work that would have made it eligible was the not very good unless you understood football and by that I mean soccer Unseen Academicals, which in no way was getting a best novel nomination. In 2010, however, the vastly better I Shall Wear Midnight comes out and probably makes the Tiffany Aching saga eligible in its own right -- but that would be the 2011 award.
And, again, I could be a jerk and nominate, in 2010, the Pratchett Rincewind saga and Guards saga and Discworld saga based on Unseen Academicals, and if I can get enough people to join in, they should all count, because that book extends all three of those sagas!
And hell, let's say Discworld wins 2010. Tell me to my face that makes the Tiffany Aching saga ineligible in 2011 after I Shall Wear Midnight is released? And then we might be able to nominate the Guards saga again in 2015 after the 2013 release of Raising Steam! (Not sure of the word counts, though.)
AND IT'S THE SAME BODY OF WORK!
Like I said. It's dumb, stupid, idiotic, lame, ignorant and those are its good points. And apparently, the current version drops the word requirement to 240K, which is, what, two novels anymore? So basically, every other book for most authors?
If this thing passes somehow, I'm giving up on the Hugos as a useful award. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure this won't pass. It's just too full of dumb.
posted by eriko at 7:06 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Aww screw this I'm going back to the world cup threads. Later!
posted by eriko at 7:09 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by eriko at 7:09 PM on June 25, 2015
I would say that the WoT nomination is evidence that the voters would lean heavily towards the past.
posted by Artw at 7:16 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by Artw at 7:16 PM on June 25, 2015
Eight Books You Need To Know About To Understand The Hugo Awards Snafu
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on June 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on June 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
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