"My wedding was perfect -- and I was fat as hell the whole time."
July 22, 2015 11:00 AM Subscribe
Internet firebrand/comedian/awesome feminist Lindy West on being a fat bride. Late last year, West also wrote a post about being a fat bride and how people seem to think fat women don't get married: "It’s an aggressively entrenched paradigm that I’ve only recently managed to excise from my own psyche – me, the feminist killjoy shrew – so I really can’t begrudge anyone that initial reaction. But, every time, the subtext is clear: you are reaching above your station, fat lady."
West on the Blue: previously, more previously, previouslier, previousliest.
West on the Blue: previously, more previously, previouslier, previousliest.
Fuck 'em all, man. Fuck 'em all.
My second wedding had the added bonus of about 50 pounds on top of the weight I was at my first wedding, but it was a damn sight better, that's for sure.
And my fat husband and I looked AMAZING. And being married to him is THE BEST, and that's all that matters.
posted by St. Hubbins at 11:25 AM on July 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
My second wedding had the added bonus of about 50 pounds on top of the weight I was at my first wedding, but it was a damn sight better, that's for sure.
And my fat husband and I looked AMAZING. And being married to him is THE BEST, and that's all that matters.
posted by St. Hubbins at 11:25 AM on July 22, 2015 [42 favorites]
a friend of mine got confused about the route to the bathroom and walked into my mom’s bedroom naked.
Sounds like my kind of wedding. What a great article.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:31 AM on July 22, 2015
Sounds like my kind of wedding. What a great article.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:31 AM on July 22, 2015
I LOVE your dress in that picture, St. Hubbins!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:43 AM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 11:43 AM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Lindy West is such a wonderful woman, from what I can tell of her writings from as far back in her Stranger days.
I really do value getting to read her through my formative 20s, and now. She's a national treasure.
posted by JLovebomb at 11:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I really do value getting to read her through my formative 20s, and now. She's a national treasure.
posted by JLovebomb at 11:50 AM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was going to say if you aren't perfectly proportioned for off the rack you are better off having your wedding dress made custom, but in actuality you are always better off having your dress made custom no matter what your size. At least, judging from my wife's experience shopping boutiques and giving up.
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:54 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:54 AM on July 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Haha, I was just coming here to post this. Thanks Kitteh!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:56 AM on July 22, 2015
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:56 AM on July 22, 2015
What a great color, too, St. Hubbins. And you guys do look fabulous!
posted by tavella at 12:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 12:05 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
She does look great in that dress. But OMG, what is HE wearing!?
This is your wedding day, dude! You can't just pick something from the next best second-hand shop!
posted by sour cream at 12:16 PM on July 22, 2015
This is your wedding day, dude! You can't just pick something from the next best second-hand shop!
posted by sour cream at 12:16 PM on July 22, 2015
THAT. DRESS. OMG I almost fell off my chair. So ridiculously gorgeous.
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:18 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:18 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
This piece is so so wonderful. I am in awe of how she owned her whole wedding experience.
When I got married this spring, I was not a fat bride by any stretch of the imagination, and I'm also relatively comfortable with and happy about my own body. But wow did getting married make me feel hella fat anyway. I am rather ashamed to admit it, but I turned to husband on more than one occasion--during the planning process and after we got pictures back--and even said that weddings are for skinny people.
I mean, I was never someone who grow up dreaming about my wedding. But there is so, so much built up in the wedding industry about how brides are supposed to look a certain way, and so many people whose first question is "what does your dress look like?" that even resisting it as hard as I could (not even attempting to crash diet, choosing a dress primarily for comfort/modesty, refusing to spend the kind of money I would need to drop to look The Best I've Ever Looked), I think a part of me was still sortof disappointed that getting married didn't somehow instantly transform me into a Thin Bride. And its so stupid and most of me knows those are such ridiculous things to think about my own body but.
Anyway, fuck yes, this woman rocks.
posted by likeatoaster at 12:21 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
When I got married this spring, I was not a fat bride by any stretch of the imagination, and I'm also relatively comfortable with and happy about my own body. But wow did getting married make me feel hella fat anyway. I am rather ashamed to admit it, but I turned to husband on more than one occasion--during the planning process and after we got pictures back--and even said that weddings are for skinny people.
I mean, I was never someone who grow up dreaming about my wedding. But there is so, so much built up in the wedding industry about how brides are supposed to look a certain way, and so many people whose first question is "what does your dress look like?" that even resisting it as hard as I could (not even attempting to crash diet, choosing a dress primarily for comfort/modesty, refusing to spend the kind of money I would need to drop to look The Best I've Ever Looked), I think a part of me was still sortof disappointed that getting married didn't somehow instantly transform me into a Thin Bride. And its so stupid and most of me knows those are such ridiculous things to think about my own body but.
Anyway, fuck yes, this woman rocks.
posted by likeatoaster at 12:21 PM on July 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
I too was a fat bride and had my dress custom made. The smart thing to do would have been to have my wonderful dressmaker make me a whole wardrobe to go with it. (seriously, why is bespoke womens' clothing not really a thing when men can get custom shirts and suits all over the place?)
On another note, the way that the article was typeset made me read the first sentence as "A ham and I got engaged on my birthday." The misreading persisted through the whole first paragraph as she was talking about the elaborate setup, string duo, banners and streamers, etc. - "Yeah, a guy would have to be a real ham to do all that." It wasn't until a couple paragraphs in that I realized the guy was actually named Aham.
posted by Daily Alice at 12:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
On another note, the way that the article was typeset made me read the first sentence as "A ham and I got engaged on my birthday." The misreading persisted through the whole first paragraph as she was talking about the elaborate setup, string duo, banners and streamers, etc. - "Yeah, a guy would have to be a real ham to do all that." It wasn't until a couple paragraphs in that I realized the guy was actually named Aham.
posted by Daily Alice at 12:23 PM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Regarding the proposal - I'm usually against public proposals, because there's usually a coercive aspect to them - putting the woman on the spot in front of friends and family makes it harder for them to say no. But what she said about how she wanted a public proposal because of our culture...there's a lot of food for thought there.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:45 PM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:45 PM on July 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
But most fat women in media didn’t even get that far – most were lovelorn, vulgar comic relief, their sexuality spun as either a menace or a joke. (To be honest, not much has changed.)
Oh, dude, precisely.
Speaking as a queer person of indeterminate gender, let me tell you, this happens to queer women/queer AFAB people/queer people read as women too.
I had the most fucked up interaction on Pride, where these random people came up to me to tell me that I look like Big Boo from Orange Is The New Black - clearly as a way of insulting me. Note: I do not look like Big Boo or Lea Delaria - the character and the actor are significantly older, significantly larger, built differently, have really different facial features than I do, have very different coloring from mine, dress differently, are shorter, move differently; the whole interaction was about people punishing me for not looking like the right kind of queer person - at Pride, no less. (And then one of them was all "ooh, this is awkward" and I was like, yes, what the fuck did you expect? You treat me like the less attractive kind of zoo animal and you expect me to make nice?)
But it sure made me think about how - as beloved as Big Boo is in some quarters - she (and Lea DeLaria's whole schtick, basically - I'm afraid I've never really been into her) is premised on this whole"fat women are ridiculous and gross and if sexual, hypersexual; they can desire but can't be objects of desire*; fat women can be sexually aggressive precisely because sexual aggression in women is viewed as either disgusting or delusional and so it's appropriate for fat women". Big Boo/Lea DeLaria is allowed to act a bit like an asshole dude because butches get some license in that regard - but there sure isn't any space for any other model of fat queerness.
*Big Boo gets desired, but the audience isn't meant to read her as desirable to us.
posted by Frowner at 1:03 PM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Oh, dude, precisely.
Speaking as a queer person of indeterminate gender, let me tell you, this happens to queer women/queer AFAB people/queer people read as women too.
I had the most fucked up interaction on Pride, where these random people came up to me to tell me that I look like Big Boo from Orange Is The New Black - clearly as a way of insulting me. Note: I do not look like Big Boo or Lea Delaria - the character and the actor are significantly older, significantly larger, built differently, have really different facial features than I do, have very different coloring from mine, dress differently, are shorter, move differently; the whole interaction was about people punishing me for not looking like the right kind of queer person - at Pride, no less. (And then one of them was all "ooh, this is awkward" and I was like, yes, what the fuck did you expect? You treat me like the less attractive kind of zoo animal and you expect me to make nice?)
But it sure made me think about how - as beloved as Big Boo is in some quarters - she (and Lea DeLaria's whole schtick, basically - I'm afraid I've never really been into her) is premised on this whole"fat women are ridiculous and gross and if sexual, hypersexual; they can desire but can't be objects of desire*; fat women can be sexually aggressive precisely because sexual aggression in women is viewed as either disgusting or delusional and so it's appropriate for fat women". Big Boo/Lea DeLaria is allowed to act a bit like an asshole dude because butches get some license in that regard - but there sure isn't any space for any other model of fat queerness.
*Big Boo gets desired, but the audience isn't meant to read her as desirable to us.
posted by Frowner at 1:03 PM on July 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Fat women can be pretty. Fat women can get married. Fat women can “get” conventionally attractive husbands.
Paragraph after paragraph of strident, non-conformist arguments that struggle against convention in all of its forms, and then we get this: blatant fatphobia in the context of selecting a partner. Why not write, instead, that "Fat women can be pretty. Fat women can get married. Fat women can rise above the fatphobia programmed into them from childhood, and select, learn to eroticize, learn to lust after, and learn to love a partner who is fat like themselves."
Even if it's possible, through charm, looks, and force of personality, to "get" a conventional (read: thin) husband, the radical rejection of such a husband in favor of a fat partner is a prerequisite to maintaining consistency in the arguments that the author so convincingly poses.
posted by Gordion Knott at 1:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Paragraph after paragraph of strident, non-conformist arguments that struggle against convention in all of its forms, and then we get this: blatant fatphobia in the context of selecting a partner. Why not write, instead, that "Fat women can be pretty. Fat women can get married. Fat women can rise above the fatphobia programmed into them from childhood, and select, learn to eroticize, learn to lust after, and learn to love a partner who is fat like themselves."
Even if it's possible, through charm, looks, and force of personality, to "get" a conventional (read: thin) husband, the radical rejection of such a husband in favor of a fat partner is a prerequisite to maintaining consistency in the arguments that the author so convincingly poses.
posted by Gordion Knott at 1:04 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Even if it's possible, through charm, looks, and force of personality, to "get" a conventional (read: thin) husband, the radical rejection of such a husband in favor of a fat partner is a prerequisite to maintaining consistency in the arguments that the author convincingly poses.
So what you're saying is that in order to be politically legit, a fat woman must seek a fat partner? How does this change anything? There's still no, like, actual choice involved.
What happens if you, like, really click with a guy who isn't fat? Do you dump him because you feel politically obligated to marry a fat guy? (Do you require that he get fat in order to stay with you?)
What happens if a thin guy asks you out? Do you tell him that he's lovely but you can't date him in order to maintain your fat bona fides?
What if you're on OKCupid and a guy messages you and his photos don't look especially thin and you're really excited about meeting him and then you go on a date and he's....thin?
What happens if you're into pretending to be a dinosaur during sex and he's into pretending to be dinosaur during sex and you're both happy as clams and then he decides he wants to take up rock climbing and thins down? Do you break off the engagement to date a vanilla fat guy? Do you insist that he stops rock climbing?
What if you have a classically beautiful face and he looks like Quasimodo but you're fat and he's thin? Is that enough rejecting of the status quo?
I mean, geez, you'd think that the only reason people choose partners is as a political gesture and that you just go down to the Depot and fill out a requisition form.
posted by Frowner at 1:12 PM on July 22, 2015 [50 favorites]
blatant fatphobia in the context of selecting a partner.
I was wondering about that too, but I don't think she meant it to be fatphobic. I do think she meant that many people believe that fat women shouldn't have attractive husbands.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:16 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
I was wondering about that too, but I don't think she meant it to be fatphobic. I do think she meant that many people believe that fat women shouldn't have attractive husbands.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:16 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Paragraph after paragraph of strident, non-conformist arguments that struggle against convention in all of its forms, and then we get this: blatant fatphobia
It appears that you missed the context of that passage. She posits those things as examples of unhelpful aspects of fat activism, not as ideas that she endorses:
It appears that you missed the context of that passage. She posits those things as examples of unhelpful aspects of fat activism, not as ideas that she endorses:
But “beauty” is a fraught concept. There’s an awkward three-way tension between wedding culture and feminism and fat acceptance – because of what “acceptance” demands of women in our culture, a lot of fat activism takes the form of fat women trying to “prove” that they can wear the trappings of male fantasy and traditional gender roles just as well as thin women. Fat women can be pretty. Fat women can get married. Fat women can “get” conventionally attractive husbands. But how is that constructive? Male approval isn’t where my self-worth comes from – and that realisation was a huge part of what made my current relationship healthy and fulfilling.posted by dialetheia at 1:18 PM on July 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
I loved that even she was kind of surprised that earlier-drunk-her had had the nerve to say what she wanted in a proposal. It's one thing to become fat-positive and love ourselves and realize that being fat means we still have a right to things like health care and love. But it's another to straight up flip the bird to the fat-shaming patriarchy.
It shows that even someone as joyfully confident as she is can still struggle with the shame expectations of fat women. So glad she got to acknowledge that and be consciously Thrilled with her wedding experience as a fat bride.
posted by ldthomps at 2:08 PM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
It shows that even someone as joyfully confident as she is can still struggle with the shame expectations of fat women. So glad she got to acknowledge that and be consciously Thrilled with her wedding experience as a fat bride.
posted by ldthomps at 2:08 PM on July 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Lindy West is a goddamn treasure. And yes, reading fat phobia in the passage about what fat women are allowed to have? Big fat (lol) misreading.
posted by palomar at 3:53 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by palomar at 3:53 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's Lindy West's fault that I saw Sex and the City 2, but over the last five years I've managed to forgive her and now I wish her well.
Seriously, this is a great, very thoughtful piece. I'm glad that she's happy but certain parts - especially where she writes about some of the fuck-knuckles she dated before her husband - made me very sad. I have nothing constructive to say about this, partly because I don't want to feel like I'm enabling or giving coping strategies to men who love a fat woman but hate themselves for doing so, but: guys, we are all going to be dead surprisingly soon. Why not spend part of that time being glad about why you're happy?
posted by Zeinab Badawi's Twenty Hotels at 3:54 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Seriously, this is a great, very thoughtful piece. I'm glad that she's happy but certain parts - especially where she writes about some of the fuck-knuckles she dated before her husband - made me very sad. I have nothing constructive to say about this, partly because I don't want to feel like I'm enabling or giving coping strategies to men who love a fat woman but hate themselves for doing so, but: guys, we are all going to be dead surprisingly soon. Why not spend part of that time being glad about why you're happy?
posted by Zeinab Badawi's Twenty Hotels at 3:54 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
What happens if you're into pretending to be a dinosaur during sex and he's into pretending to be dinosaur during sex
Ah, Flintstones fetishism, aka YabbaDabbaDo Me!
People of all sizes can be attractive to all kinds of people. This should not be news.
posted by jonmc at 4:43 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ah, Flintstones fetishism, aka YabbaDabbaDo Me!
People of all sizes can be attractive to all kinds of people. This should not be news.
posted by jonmc at 4:43 PM on July 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Their husbands being not-fat is very common. If there's any pattern of behavior where media biases are being proudly refuted or ignored, it's overweight women getting married.
I wouldn't generalize that way, but it was the case in my marriage. Sometimes people overcome the politics and don't care what the fuck anyone else thinks. Love is love.
posted by Benway at 4:44 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't generalize that way, but it was the case in my marriage. Sometimes people overcome the politics and don't care what the fuck anyone else thinks. Love is love.
posted by Benway at 4:44 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really love that dress. I want one with flowers all over it like that now.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:11 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:11 PM on July 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are long, manic messageboard threads devoted to comparing photos of me with photos of my fiance’s thin, conventionally pretty ex-wife,
Good lord, who has the time to care that much about someone else's life?
I liked the article -- she looked radiant in the photos and in her writing she is smart, provocative, and interesting. People deserve to be happy (and happy on their own terms), and I wish we could get rid of all the shaming and all the excessive public scrutiny.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:52 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Good lord, who has the time to care that much about someone else's life?
I liked the article -- she looked radiant in the photos and in her writing she is smart, provocative, and interesting. People deserve to be happy (and happy on their own terms), and I wish we could get rid of all the shaming and all the excessive public scrutiny.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:52 PM on July 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm always happy for Lindy West but I did not like that dress.
posted by sweetkid at 10:13 PM on July 22, 2015
posted by sweetkid at 10:13 PM on July 22, 2015
Lindy West is crazy talented, is conventionally pretty, dresses to kill, and has the kind of dynamic personality that fills the room. It's fucking crazy that there is one thing wrong, one thing, and it makes her totally worthless as a mate for most people. And it's not like something really difficult to deal with like, oh, she's great but she's a nazi. Like her, I assumed I would never get married because I was fat. I spent most of my life all by myself, even though I have a lot going for me. Being fat erased all my worth. I did finally find someone who sees the good behind the chub but it's still hard to not judge myself based on others' assessment of me.
posted by Foam Pants at 11:30 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Foam Pants at 11:30 PM on July 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
And yes, reading fat phobia in the passage about what fat women are allowed to have? Big fat (lol) misreading.
I would argue that her actions in selecting a non-fat spouse speak louder than her words, showing that she does, in fact, agree with the convention that she's critiquing. There are many portly gentlemen who would look equally fly in the blue-and-white plaid tux that her husband, Aham, is sporting in the wedding photos. Yet blinders prevent her from seeing otherwise.
Yes, love is love. But the failure to date, and attempt to fall in love with, a partner of size is equivalent to the attitudes of American fraternities and sororities that deny admission to minorities on the pretext that their members feel "greater synergy" with students of their own race. Although it's valid of us to wish otherwise, the selection of a partner is often read by society as a political statement, and in a country that is rife with intelligent, attractive, sexy men of size, such as statement, in the context of this writer, is "I celebrate my size externally, but in the internal world of desire, I hate fat people."
posted by Gordion Knott at 4:28 AM on July 23, 2015
I would argue that her actions in selecting a non-fat spouse speak louder than her words, showing that she does, in fact, agree with the convention that she's critiquing. There are many portly gentlemen who would look equally fly in the blue-and-white plaid tux that her husband, Aham, is sporting in the wedding photos. Yet blinders prevent her from seeing otherwise.
Yes, love is love. But the failure to date, and attempt to fall in love with, a partner of size is equivalent to the attitudes of American fraternities and sororities that deny admission to minorities on the pretext that their members feel "greater synergy" with students of their own race. Although it's valid of us to wish otherwise, the selection of a partner is often read by society as a political statement, and in a country that is rife with intelligent, attractive, sexy men of size, such as statement, in the context of this writer, is "I celebrate my size externally, but in the internal world of desire, I hate fat people."
posted by Gordion Knott at 4:28 AM on July 23, 2015
Yes, love is love. But the failure to date, and attempt to fall in love with, a partner of size is equivalent to the attitudes of American fraternities and sororities that deny admission to minorities on the pretext that their members feel "greater synergy" with students of their own race. Although it's valid of us to wish otherwise, the selection of a partner is often read by society as a political statement, and in a country that is rife with intelligent, attractive, sexy men of size, such as statement, in the context of this writer, is "I celebrate my size externally, but in the internal world of desire, I hate fat people."
I acknowledge this point (though I disagree with it). I have considered the political implications of my having married a white woman and the ways in which that choice betrays the struggle. The personal is political, that much is true. But the personal cannot only be that. Love is not entirely or exclusively a rational act (though we often underestimate how much rational choice is involved).
posted by Octaviuz at 5:08 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I acknowledge this point (though I disagree with it). I have considered the political implications of my having married a white woman and the ways in which that choice betrays the struggle. The personal is political, that much is true. But the personal cannot only be that. Love is not entirely or exclusively a rational act (though we often underestimate how much rational choice is involved).
posted by Octaviuz at 5:08 AM on July 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
"I celebrate my size externally, but in the internal world of desire, I hate fat people."
From the second link:
"So, I grew up assuming that I would never get married (unless I found my own John Goodman – swoon)"
posted by almostmanda at 6:09 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
From the second link:
"So, I grew up assuming that I would never get married (unless I found my own John Goodman – swoon)"
posted by almostmanda at 6:09 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
"I celebrate my size externally, but in the internal world of desire, I hate fat people."
With all due respect, I sort of feel like you're projecting something here that doesn't match what she's actually saying. People fall in love for all sorts of reasons that aren't calculated or planned.
From the article:
She fell in love with a guy who isn't fat. That doesn't mean she hates fat people. It means someone fell in love with her, and she fell in love back. And for someone who didn't think that part -- the mutually falling in love part -- was going to be possible, it's a bit of a triumph.
posted by zarq at 6:52 AM on July 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
With all due respect, I sort of feel like you're projecting something here that doesn't match what she's actually saying. People fall in love for all sorts of reasons that aren't calculated or planned.
From the article:
"So, I grew up assuming that I would never get married (unless I found my own John Goodman – swoon), because marriage was for thin women, the kind of women who deserved to be collected. How could I be a bride when I was already what men most feared their wives would become? I was the mise en place for a midlife crisis. I was the Ghost of Adultery Future. At least, that’s what I’d been taught."She is explaining that she had hoped for someone who would see beauty in her both mentally and physically, and think she was worth spending the rest of their lives with. Someone who could defy her low-self expectations, because being fat in modern society often translates as "unattractive." Or as she describes, a fat wife is a married man's fear. And as others have noted, she says she finds the "John Goodman" type attractive.
She fell in love with a guy who isn't fat. That doesn't mean she hates fat people. It means someone fell in love with her, and she fell in love back. And for someone who didn't think that part -- the mutually falling in love part -- was going to be possible, it's a bit of a triumph.
posted by zarq at 6:52 AM on July 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
But the failure to date, and attempt to fall in love with, a partner of size
That's a really specific charge; has she previously stated somewhere that she explicitly rejected men her size? And how long should she be expected to "attempt to fall in love" (?) with a larger man before she decides to follow her heart?)
There are many portly gentlemen who would look equally fly in the blue-and-white plaid tux that her husband, Aham, is sporting in the wedding photos. Yet blinders prevent her from seeing otherwise.
This is uncomfortably close to the saying "it's just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor man."
"I celebrate my size externally, but in the internal world of desire, I hate fat people."
I think it's sad that this woman's celebration of self-acceptance is being interpreted as self-loathing.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:04 AM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
That's a really specific charge; has she previously stated somewhere that she explicitly rejected men her size? And how long should she be expected to "attempt to fall in love" (?) with a larger man before she decides to follow her heart?)
There are many portly gentlemen who would look equally fly in the blue-and-white plaid tux that her husband, Aham, is sporting in the wedding photos. Yet blinders prevent her from seeing otherwise.
This is uncomfortably close to the saying "it's just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor man."
"I celebrate my size externally, but in the internal world of desire, I hate fat people."
I think it's sad that this woman's celebration of self-acceptance is being interpreted as self-loathing.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:04 AM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
About "fat people should only marry fat people or else they are hypocrites who secretly hate fat people" thing:
1. How does this work with other marginalizations? Or are they less important than being fat? So if someone is a fat disabled woman, she should only marry a fat disabled man, or else she hates disabled people? If someone is fat, disabled and an immigrant, she can only marry a fat disabled immigrant? Etc.
2. Your line of reasoning, Gordion Knott, suggests that fat women are the de facto "property" of fat men - a fat woman who fails to marry a fat man is doing a bad thing.
3. If fat people should only marry (and presumably only desire) other fat people, does this mean it's okay for thin people to reject fat people? And implicitly for other privileged groups to reject other marginalized groups? If marginalized people should only be dating each other, the privileged people who refuse to date them are actually doing the right thing by preventing marginalized people from dating outside their group, so all those, like, Grindr profiles that specify no Asians or femmes or whatever are perfectly all right.
4. What about people who actually like size disparity in their relationships? Some thin people proactively like to date fat people, for instance.
5. On a more serious note: I understand that our sexual preferences are substantially socially constructed and are substantially in response to bad social cues. However, what you're saying is that a fat woman (and it's interesting that we're starting with women) should totally distrust her attraction if she's attracted to a thin person and should ignore what she feels in favor of what she knows she ought to feel. This is what women are always told about sexuality - that what they (or AFAB people generally) want is wrong or stupid or a misunderstanding, and they need to ignore their feelings in favor of what's correct.
6. On a funny note: if we're saying that it's okay to ignore "bad" attraction in favor of dating a fat person above all else, why shouldn't nominally straight fat women decide to date other fat women? Surely that's the ultimate way of showing that you value fat womanhood, right? (Leaving aside that all this assumes that having sex is the ultimate way of valuing someone, which is kind of awful.) I actually have a moderately overweight straight friend who is having a dry spell, and she gets hit on a lot by women. Should she just give up on attracting a dude and learn to have a kind of sex that she doesn't actually want?
7. How is all this going to work with the fact that not all fat people are created equal? I, for instance, am what is referred to in fat acceptance circles as a "small fat" - I can often wear the largest regular sizes, I rarely get spontaneous street harassment about my weight, etc. More, I have a pretty athletic build and a large frame, and I put on muscle easily. I have a lot of social privilege over, for instance, a woman who wears a size 24, or a woman of my own size who has small bones and thus "looks" fatter. Am I allowed to date fatter than me, or should large fats only date large fats?
8. "Fat people should only date other fat people" relies on the idea that everyone has a large social circle of people like them. (Especially if you add "fat [plus other marginalization] people should only date fat [plus other marginalization] people".) And on the idea that everyone has lots of suitors, so it's easy to select from among the compatible people who are eager to date you, and only a perverse self-hater would select the thin ones. This also relies on the idea that there's not much else to physical attraction than body size, which just isn't true - as if any old fat person at all would be attractive to you, so if you have a thin suitor and a fat one, the only reason to choose the thin one is prejudice, not that you're totally drawn to guys with glasses, dark hair and faint foreign accents, or whatever.
(I've dated fat people of various sizes, thin people and one really muscular dude. Body size really is not that important to me. However, the most important factor in determining who I date has been...the fact that even in a large metropolitan area with a big queer population, there just aren't that many suitable people who I actually like. I'm sure not going to turn down someone who is fun, interesting and interested so that I can hold out for the politically correct small fat partner.)
posted by Frowner at 7:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [31 favorites]
1. How does this work with other marginalizations? Or are they less important than being fat? So if someone is a fat disabled woman, she should only marry a fat disabled man, or else she hates disabled people? If someone is fat, disabled and an immigrant, she can only marry a fat disabled immigrant? Etc.
2. Your line of reasoning, Gordion Knott, suggests that fat women are the de facto "property" of fat men - a fat woman who fails to marry a fat man is doing a bad thing.
3. If fat people should only marry (and presumably only desire) other fat people, does this mean it's okay for thin people to reject fat people? And implicitly for other privileged groups to reject other marginalized groups? If marginalized people should only be dating each other, the privileged people who refuse to date them are actually doing the right thing by preventing marginalized people from dating outside their group, so all those, like, Grindr profiles that specify no Asians or femmes or whatever are perfectly all right.
4. What about people who actually like size disparity in their relationships? Some thin people proactively like to date fat people, for instance.
5. On a more serious note: I understand that our sexual preferences are substantially socially constructed and are substantially in response to bad social cues. However, what you're saying is that a fat woman (and it's interesting that we're starting with women) should totally distrust her attraction if she's attracted to a thin person and should ignore what she feels in favor of what she knows she ought to feel. This is what women are always told about sexuality - that what they (or AFAB people generally) want is wrong or stupid or a misunderstanding, and they need to ignore their feelings in favor of what's correct.
6. On a funny note: if we're saying that it's okay to ignore "bad" attraction in favor of dating a fat person above all else, why shouldn't nominally straight fat women decide to date other fat women? Surely that's the ultimate way of showing that you value fat womanhood, right? (Leaving aside that all this assumes that having sex is the ultimate way of valuing someone, which is kind of awful.) I actually have a moderately overweight straight friend who is having a dry spell, and she gets hit on a lot by women. Should she just give up on attracting a dude and learn to have a kind of sex that she doesn't actually want?
7. How is all this going to work with the fact that not all fat people are created equal? I, for instance, am what is referred to in fat acceptance circles as a "small fat" - I can often wear the largest regular sizes, I rarely get spontaneous street harassment about my weight, etc. More, I have a pretty athletic build and a large frame, and I put on muscle easily. I have a lot of social privilege over, for instance, a woman who wears a size 24, or a woman of my own size who has small bones and thus "looks" fatter. Am I allowed to date fatter than me, or should large fats only date large fats?
8. "Fat people should only date other fat people" relies on the idea that everyone has a large social circle of people like them. (Especially if you add "fat [plus other marginalization] people should only date fat [plus other marginalization] people".) And on the idea that everyone has lots of suitors, so it's easy to select from among the compatible people who are eager to date you, and only a perverse self-hater would select the thin ones. This also relies on the idea that there's not much else to physical attraction than body size, which just isn't true - as if any old fat person at all would be attractive to you, so if you have a thin suitor and a fat one, the only reason to choose the thin one is prejudice, not that you're totally drawn to guys with glasses, dark hair and faint foreign accents, or whatever.
(I've dated fat people of various sizes, thin people and one really muscular dude. Body size really is not that important to me. However, the most important factor in determining who I date has been...the fact that even in a large metropolitan area with a big queer population, there just aren't that many suitable people who I actually like. I'm sure not going to turn down someone who is fun, interesting and interested so that I can hold out for the politically correct small fat partner.)
posted by Frowner at 7:17 AM on July 23, 2015 [31 favorites]
Even if it's possible, through charm, looks, and force of personality, to "get" a conventional (read: thin) husband, the radical rejection of such a husband in favor of a fat partner is a prerequisite to maintaining consistency in the arguments that the author so convincingly poses.
Honestly it is really hard to read this as anything other than "well jesus christ, we have to make her feel bad about SOMETHING."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:34 AM on July 23, 2015 [21 favorites]
Honestly it is really hard to read this as anything other than "well jesus christ, we have to make her feel bad about SOMETHING."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:34 AM on July 23, 2015 [21 favorites]
(I mean I guess I can understand a philosophy of personal happiness being 100% subordinate to political consistency but if we can't dance, it's not my revolution, etc.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:39 AM on July 23, 2015
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:39 AM on July 23, 2015
Yeah, I'm wondering why fat people are the group that has to only find others within the group attractive, otherwise we're self-loathing headcases who aren't "politically consistent".
posted by palomar at 7:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by palomar at 7:45 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, and the assumption that she was being snide about John Goodman? Check yourself, son.
posted by palomar at 7:46 AM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by palomar at 7:46 AM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
(The subsequent tweets on that page are super correct... I know SO MANY WOMEN who have a thing for John Goodman. Soooooo many. All shapes and sizes, surprise!)
posted by palomar at 7:48 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by palomar at 7:48 AM on July 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I'm wondering why fat people are the group that has to only find others within the group attractive, otherwise we're self-loathing headcases who aren't "politically consistent".
Maybe I'm being unreasonably charitable but I read the point as applying to myself as well. I imagine it could apply to an environmentalist marrying a petroleum engineer or a campaigner against institutional racism in policing marrying a cop.
(I mean I guess I can understand a philosophy of personal happiness being 100% subordinate to political consistency but if we can't dance, it's not my revolution, etc.)
This is the relevant point. If the struggle (whatever struggle it is) has to define every aspect of life, it's not a very attractive movement to get involved in.
posted by Octaviuz at 8:01 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'm being unreasonably charitable but I read the point as applying to myself as well. I imagine it could apply to an environmentalist marrying a petroleum engineer or a campaigner against institutional racism in policing marrying a cop.
(I mean I guess I can understand a philosophy of personal happiness being 100% subordinate to political consistency but if we can't dance, it's not my revolution, etc.)
This is the relevant point. If the struggle (whatever struggle it is) has to define every aspect of life, it's not a very attractive movement to get involved in.
posted by Octaviuz at 8:01 AM on July 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'm being unreasonably charitable but I read the point as applying to myself as well. I imagine it could apply to an environmentalist marrying a petroleum engineer or a campaigner against institutional racism in policing marrying a cop.
Yabbut those are ideologies. A body isn't an ideology. A body isn't about morality. You don't say "what political position would I be adopting if I chose to be fat"? People end up fat - for a variety of reasons, some of which are somewhat controllable and some of which are not - but it's not a decision that people make.
Even a fat person marrying someone who was emotionally abusive about their weight isn't in the same position as an environmentalist marrying a petroleum engineer.
This whole thing seems to make fat people uniquely responsible for the meaning of their bodies.
Where is the part where thin people have to work on themselves? Where is the part where thin people's bodies are read as ideological?
The absurdity of this becomes apparent when you realize that you're either left with "thin people should only marry thin people" or "thin people should make sure that they value, desire and pursue people of all body sizes, but non-thin people should only value, desire and pursue other non-thin people".
Also, it's weirdly reductionist - a fat person isn't just a regular person, with some people being fat and some people being medium and some people being thin, just like some people have freckles and some people don't, and some people have wide shoulders and some people have receding chins and some people have two-colored eyes, etc. In this line of reasoning, a fat person isn't just one of a crowd, with our goal being that human difference is truly neutrally accepted as just variation*. No, we're saying that a fat person is always and above all a Fat Person, with all the weighty social responsibility that carries. Fat bodies, unlike other bodies, have moral meaning and ingrained philosophy and responsibility. You just want to live like other people? Tough shit, your dating choices and life choices aren't just constrained by your social circle, your finances, your background and all the other things that you've experienced, they're also constrained by the weighty [ha ha] moral responsibility that you have to show the world that you Value Fat People. You can have fat friends, of course, you can act brave and happy, you can have little fat goddess stickers on your bumper or wear a fat acceptance tee shirt (and don't forget that all this is mostly about what women do) but that's not enough - you have to be very careful who you fuck and who you desire, lest your sexual choices show that you are not taking your responsibility as a Fat Person seriously enough.
posted by Frowner at 8:25 AM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
Yabbut those are ideologies. A body isn't an ideology. A body isn't about morality. You don't say "what political position would I be adopting if I chose to be fat"? People end up fat - for a variety of reasons, some of which are somewhat controllable and some of which are not - but it's not a decision that people make.
Even a fat person marrying someone who was emotionally abusive about their weight isn't in the same position as an environmentalist marrying a petroleum engineer.
This whole thing seems to make fat people uniquely responsible for the meaning of their bodies.
Where is the part where thin people have to work on themselves? Where is the part where thin people's bodies are read as ideological?
The absurdity of this becomes apparent when you realize that you're either left with "thin people should only marry thin people" or "thin people should make sure that they value, desire and pursue people of all body sizes, but non-thin people should only value, desire and pursue other non-thin people".
Also, it's weirdly reductionist - a fat person isn't just a regular person, with some people being fat and some people being medium and some people being thin, just like some people have freckles and some people don't, and some people have wide shoulders and some people have receding chins and some people have two-colored eyes, etc. In this line of reasoning, a fat person isn't just one of a crowd, with our goal being that human difference is truly neutrally accepted as just variation*. No, we're saying that a fat person is always and above all a Fat Person, with all the weighty social responsibility that carries. Fat bodies, unlike other bodies, have moral meaning and ingrained philosophy and responsibility. You just want to live like other people? Tough shit, your dating choices and life choices aren't just constrained by your social circle, your finances, your background and all the other things that you've experienced, they're also constrained by the weighty [ha ha] moral responsibility that you have to show the world that you Value Fat People. You can have fat friends, of course, you can act brave and happy, you can have little fat goddess stickers on your bumper or wear a fat acceptance tee shirt (and don't forget that all this is mostly about what women do) but that's not enough - you have to be very careful who you fuck and who you desire, lest your sexual choices show that you are not taking your responsibility as a Fat Person seriously enough.
posted by Frowner at 8:25 AM on July 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
I imagine it could apply to an environmentalist marrying a petroleum engineer or a campaigner against institutional racism in policing marrying a cop.
OK but like...while individual thin people are actively antagonistic to fat people, absolutely no question, and society is biased in favor of thin people, thin and fat individuals are not categorically pursuing opposing ends, the way your other examples are.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:25 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
OK but like...while individual thin people are actively antagonistic to fat people, absolutely no question, and society is biased in favor of thin people, thin and fat individuals are not categorically pursuing opposing ends, the way your other examples are.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:25 AM on July 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
And of course, you have to be a Very Serious Fattie, but thin people get to be just average humans with no additional moral responsibility, because after all it's virtually insulting if a thin person pursues, fucks or marries a fat person so thin people can just ignore the whole issue.
posted by Frowner at 8:28 AM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:28 AM on July 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
you have to be very careful who you fuck and who you desire, lest your sexual choices show that you are not taking your responsibility as a Fat Person seriously enough.
It's almost as if fat men might have some ulterior motive in pushing this agenda beyond political consistency.
posted by almostmanda at 8:31 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
It's almost as if fat men might have some ulterior motive in pushing this agenda beyond political consistency.
posted by almostmanda at 8:31 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
I would argue that her actions in selecting a non-fat spouse speak louder than her words, showing that she does, in fact, agree with the convention that she's critiquing. There are many portly gentlemen who would look equally fly in the blue-and-white plaid tux that her husband, Aham, is sporting in the wedding photos. Yet blinders prevent her from seeing otherwise.
Other people have already covered what a bizarre claim this is, but I want to point out that a lot of the blinders in this world are the ones worn by fat men who hate fat women.
There are A LOT of fat men who talk about how disgusting fat women are, and how pathetic men who date fat women are, and whether that is self-loathing or not, this idea that the world is full of fat men ready for any fat woman to say "I choose you! Let us be wed!" is just nonsensical. She married the person who loved her and asked him to marry her. It isn't like she turned down a series of portly beaux to pick the beanpole. She married the dude who asked.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:02 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Other people have already covered what a bizarre claim this is, but I want to point out that a lot of the blinders in this world are the ones worn by fat men who hate fat women.
There are A LOT of fat men who talk about how disgusting fat women are, and how pathetic men who date fat women are, and whether that is self-loathing or not, this idea that the world is full of fat men ready for any fat woman to say "I choose you! Let us be wed!" is just nonsensical. She married the person who loved her and asked him to marry her. It isn't like she turned down a series of portly beaux to pick the beanpole. She married the dude who asked.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:02 AM on July 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Mod note: A bunch of comments deleted. Gordion Knott, I don't know what is going on with your participation here, but I'm going to ask you to step away from this thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:44 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:44 AM on July 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'll step away. If I came across as trolling, I accept the responsibility, and apologize for derailing the thread.
posted by Gordion Knott at 11:03 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Gordion Knott at 11:03 AM on July 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think this is great. There are way too many "bridal bootcamps" so women can work themselves to death on being a skinny bride. My best friend starved herself so much she was a 95lb bride. I say focus on being happy, in love, and beautiful with who you are rather than trying to be on the cover of Bride magazine.
posted by stormpooper at 8:19 AM on July 28, 2015
posted by stormpooper at 8:19 AM on July 28, 2015
Katherine Fritz interviewing Lindy West for MTV News: “Meet The Inspiring Bride Obliterating Wedding Dress Stereotypes”
posted by Going To Maine at 8:29 AM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 8:29 AM on August 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
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Oh my god, what. What the hell, people.
posted by emjaybee at 11:08 AM on July 22, 2015 [21 favorites]