♫ Ah, look at all the Corbyn people! Ah, look at all the Corbyn people!♪
September 12, 2015 3:47 AM   Subscribe

Jeremy Corbyn, socialist token once chosen to broaden debate... wins Labour race!
Look at his rivals -- Burnham and Cooper and Kendall all grumble, deplore. Who are they for?
All the Corbyn people -- where do they all come from? All the Corbyn people -- where do they all belong?

Jez's agenda: Nato and Trident and railways and people's QE. Experts agree!
Chuka Umunna, right-leaning leader (and one-time Barack wannabe), pleads unity!
All the Corbyn people -- what will they all become? All the Corbyn people -- will Labour play along?

(Ah, look at all the Corbyn, people! ♫♪ Ah, look at all the Corbyn, people!)

Meanwhile, the Tories, fresh from political triumph greet Corbyn with cheer. What do they fear?
Some grizzled lefty, focused on income equality -- he's Labour's grave. Or will he save?

All the Corbyn people -- where do they all come from? All the Corbyn people -- where do they all belong?
posted by Rhaomi (443 comments total) 88 users marked this as a favorite
 
Corbyn's candidacy previously.

(h/t to @CorbynWarnings for the inspiration for this post, with apologies to the Fab Four)
posted by Rhaomi at 3:47 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


He won with 59% of the first round votes. Impressive.
posted by pharm at 3:51 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ooh, this is going to be fun!
posted by Segundus at 4:08 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Good job Corbyn. What with all the election fuck ups (members not receiving ballots, kicking out long time members, not detecting Green Party infiltrators (hi!!)), it's nice that he won at least.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:09 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


Grabs the popcorn, grabs ALL the popcorn.
posted by fullerine at 4:12 AM on September 12, 2015 [5 favorites]


Up and down the land, the poor, the hopeless, the suffering, raise their eyes and cry out:

"Why the hell didn't I put a fiver on when he was at 100 to one?"
posted by Segundus at 4:13 AM on September 12, 2015 [58 favorites]


sings "Red Flag"
posted by brilliantmistake at 4:13 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


Corbyn and Watson - together, they fight crime!

Tom Watson spoke for so long during his deputy victory speech there was no time for Corbyn's on the radio coverage, which is annoying - but PMQs on Wednesday will be fun.

First Official Picture..
posted by Devonian at 4:14 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


Mefis own Tom Watson
posted by brilliantmistake at 4:15 AM on September 12, 2015 [29 favorites]


For those across the water; Corbyn and Watson is like Sanders and Warren getting the Dem nomination.
posted by fullerine at 4:17 AM on September 12, 2015 [32 favorites]


Mefis own Tom Watson

Whaaaaaaaattt
posted by Quilford at 4:21 AM on September 12, 2015 [15 favorites]


Well I certainly didn't expect Trump's endorsement
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:28 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


Labour in the guise of Tony Blair has literally, straight up been telling voters not to vote Corbyn because he's too left. There seems to be no understanding or acknowledgement that support for Corbyn is the only viable form of action against the Tory's declared war on the poor and working classes because Labour has become so desperately capitulating and centrist. The Tories have sold out housing, education and benefits and are in the middle of selling out healthcare. People are killing themselves because they have been left with no options.

If Labour doesn't understand why Corbyn won the leadership race, it's very simple to explain: people voted for survival.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:29 AM on September 12, 2015 [58 favorites]


(For anyone who might want to sing along to The Red Flag, here it is sung by Robert Wyatt.

Though, as a tune, personally I prefer The Internationale)
posted by Grangousier at 4:31 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


If Labour doesn't understand why Corbyn won the leadership race, it's very simple to explain: people voted for survival.

You're absolutely right.

I said it in the recent Lib Dem thread and will say it again here though - as much as anything this is a demonstration of the fact that politics has drifted too much towards being seen by its participants as a profession rather than a form of duty.

I think there's a lot of Labour MPs who just cannot compute right now that it's apparently their job to represent our views as party members and supporters. Not our job to get them elected.
posted by garius at 4:32 AM on September 12, 2015 [45 favorites]


As an Australian, can I just say I think this *checks notes* is good.
posted by Jimbob at 4:33 AM on September 12, 2015 [5 favorites]


This is a very interesting article on Corbyn by Taylor Parkes who is, apparently, a left-wing journalist. In it he utterly eviscerates Corbyn and to be honest Parkes makes an extremely compelling case as to why Corbyn will be a disaster. Time alone will tell of course, but to me he is an utter disaster because he does not understand the visceral nature of power. Definitely a feel-good person for those on the Left, but I just can't see him gaining any traction with the broader voting population.
posted by vac2003 at 4:34 AM on September 12, 2015 [12 favorites]


The Tory press is going to explode; the BBC is going to be deeply confused. I think the Labour media policy is going to be summed up thusly: bring it.

Worked for the SNP.
posted by Devonian at 4:34 AM on September 12, 2015 [11 favorites]


First thing Corbyn does as leader?

Goes off to the Refugee marches.
posted by garius at 4:36 AM on September 12, 2015 [10 favorites]


I hope this is the start of the end of limp third-way politics. When Capitalism and the right have teamed up to take as much of everything as they can, compromise is cooperation.
posted by lmfsilva at 4:38 AM on September 12, 2015 [18 favorites]


The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts' blood dyed its every fold.
So raise the scarlet standard high,
Beneath its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
posted by Artw at 4:45 AM on September 12, 2015 [16 favorites]


Time alone will tell of course, but to me he is an utter disaster because he does not understand the visceral nature of power.

It's a completely valid point of view. I do think this is the sad result, however, of the fact that there is such a paucity of strong candidates from the left, rather than a flaw in that leftiness itself. Indeed there are various of Corbyn's views that are the complete opposite of my own and are clearly naive.

What I'd like to see from Corbyn, is an acceptance of the point you raise as a clear risk and take a more collegiate approach to policy and leadership than we've had for a while.

i.e. an acceptance that he needs to bow to the advice of others in some areas (which is why I've come to feel that it's excellent that Watson is deputy) whilst drawing firm lines on the key areas of stuff like austerity etc.
posted by garius at 4:45 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


Miliband, that shiny, electable, dismal failure of a leader, proved again he has no clue with his statement "The task of the leader is to reach all parts of that movement ..."

Nay, lad; the task of the leader is to say "This is what needs doing; pick up your kit and walk with me, or fuck off home"
posted by scruss at 4:46 AM on September 12, 2015 [66 favorites]


If you think the media vitriol and collusion of business/Millitary-Industrial-Complex against anything economically remotely left of thatcher (i.e. Corbyn) is bad now..... you ain't seen nothing yet.

I hope he can marshal forces well, because Capital does not take this kind of insult lightly.

----

While the 2010s are not the 1980s, here is a blueprint from fiction.
posted by lalochezia at 4:47 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


I don't see Corbyn as a leader. While it's good for the Labour Party to present a genuine alternative to the current right-wing orthodoxy, I fear that the vote is a reaction to Tony Blair, not a reaction to the Tories.
posted by daveje at 4:47 AM on September 12, 2015


I'm probably going to be laughing at Liz Kendall's whopping 4.5% of the vote for at least a couple of days. Rejection of the Blairites, indeed.
posted by skybluepink at 4:49 AM on September 12, 2015 [9 favorites]


The factor that no commentators seem to be taking into account is that between now and the next general election there will very probably have been an economic downturn, coming after the recovery from the last one was systematically suppressed. Interesting times ahead.

I yearn for boring times, I must say.
posted by Grangousier at 4:49 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


The long era of management is over; politics is back!
posted by Segundus at 4:49 AM on September 12, 2015


Never mind Corbyn.... Wolfie Smith is coming back! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:49 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


I do think this is the sad result, however, of the fact that there is such a paucity of strong candidates from the left, rather than a flaw in that leftiness itself.

Yes. When hearing people both left and right say Corbyn shouldn't get the nod because he's not electable in a general election, I've been baffled with wonder. Who exactly is this electable Labour candidate Corbyn has unseated? Because I've yet to see them.

Of course I'm also living in a world where I'm being told Corbyn may be running against Boris Johnson, so obviously my barometer for who is and is not electable in any party is entirely broken.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:50 AM on September 12, 2015 [22 favorites]


Meanwhile over at The Telegraph...
posted by garius at 4:50 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


Never mind Corbyn.... Wolfie Smith is coming back! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

Or perhaps not... got overexcited there
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:51 AM on September 12, 2015


This feels like good news.

I'm really not used to that in UK politics anymore. I'm a bit giddy.
posted by Artw at 4:51 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


Taylor Parkes who is, apparently, a left-wing journalist

The music journalist?
posted by howfar at 4:53 AM on September 12, 2015


That's the problem with running a party democratically. Sometimes your members vote for what they actually want, rather than the bloodless neoliberal managerialism you've convinced yourself is the only possible option.
posted by Happy Dave at 4:57 AM on September 12, 2015 [70 favorites]


Yup. For the last ten years at least being a Labour Party member has felt a little bit like being Tim in The Office
posted by garius at 5:00 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


electability = "dancing exactly to the tune that the media is playing"
posted by lalochezia at 5:00 AM on September 12, 2015 [10 favorites]


Still not entirely convinced the last leadership election was decided behind the scenes by Ed and David trying to throw a shoe over a fucking roof.
posted by garius at 5:01 AM on September 12, 2015 [5 favorites]



That's the problem with running a party democratically. Sometimes your members vote for what they actually want, rather than the bloodless neoliberal managerialism you've convinced yourself is the only possible option.


Very much FTFY.
posted by lalochezia at 5:01 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


Everyone spontaneously stoping using the word "migrant" would be the other happy thing that could happen.
posted by Artw at 5:01 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


fullerine: "Grabs the popcorn, grabs ALL the popcorn."

Redistributes the popcorn equitably so everyone can have some.
posted by chavenet at 5:04 AM on September 12, 2015 [42 favorites]


So have we started a countdown to Tony Blair publicly joining the Conservative party?
posted by Artw at 5:11 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it."
-David Cameron (with apologies to Voltaire)
posted by sobarel at 5:12 AM on September 12, 2015


The factor that no commentators seem to be taking into account is that between now and the next general election there will very probably have been an economic downturn

This is the point I think - who knows what the political scene will be like in five years time? The political debate will inevitably get pulled to the left in the meantime.

At the very least Corbyn has proved himself a more charismatic and forceful leader than any of the candidates he faced in the election. He's also brought a huge amount of enthusiastic new blood into the party, I work with 16-18 year olds and Corbynmania is a genuine thing even here out in the provincial Midlands.

After the election I thought it'd take a long time for a political geek like me to get back into the game but I can't wait for Prime Ministers Questions next week.
posted by brilliantmistake at 5:14 AM on September 12, 2015 [8 favorites]


Very much FTFY.

Oh, absolutely, I meant in the sense of seeing politics as a narrow, professionalised, focus grouped exercise in appearing to listen. The results of that approach have been, as you note, far from bloodless. The world has burned to serve the Daily Mail's editorials.
posted by Happy Dave at 5:18 AM on September 12, 2015 [8 favorites]


The factor that no commentators seem to be taking into account is that between now and the next general election there will very probably have been an economic downturn

There might even be some articles that discover evidence of life outside of the south of England.
posted by srboisvert at 5:21 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


I just hope this stops Labour votes bleeding out to fucking UKIP in the north and midlands by offering an alternative to economic decline that isn't becoming a fucking fascist.
posted by Artw at 5:22 AM on September 12, 2015 [37 favorites]


> Well I certainly didn't expect Trump's endorsement

Donald Trump duped into retweeting picture of Jeremy Corbyn
posted by you must supply a verb at 5:24 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


(Didn't notice the link to the original tweet in the FPP; never mind...)
posted by acb at 5:28 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Happy happy hope hope. More later!
posted by runincircles at 5:33 AM on September 12, 2015


h/t to @CorbynWarnings for the inspiration for this post

For somewhat unclear reasons, Twitter injected an ad into that stream saying that the truly right choice is a HP 3PAR StoreServ Storage server.
posted by effbot at 5:44 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


Jaded cynic though I am, I have some hopes for Corbyn. Even if all he accomplishes is to shift the Overton window leftwards a bit, that'll be something. As brilliantmistake says, he's energised the youth of the party; his campaign has also taught those young people early on the value of questioning the media narrative. I would love to see the rush of privatisation reversed or halted; I would love to see the benefits system reformed to actually help those on benefits; I would love to see an aggressive empty-property tax on residential properties in London. But even if none of these things come to pass, I am still grateful for the presence of a Labour leader who appears to have at least one or two principles, compared to the zero they previously had.

My own profession is probably doomed, though. Old Labourites have one thing in common with the Tories: they love to defund the arts. Old Labour sees the arts as an elitist luxury; the Tories think art is worth nothing if it's not profitable.

On preview: Artw, heartily seconded. I think, though, that the supporters Labour is losing to UKIP are old-school hardline protectionists from the unions; and many of the things they object to (like the lack of import tariffs from non-British EU states) are built into the EU treaty, so Corbyn couldn't change them easily.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:47 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


VOTE HP3PAR STORESERV FOR BRITAIN
posted by garius at 5:48 AM on September 12, 2015 [13 favorites]


HP3PAR STORESERV IS AN UNELECTABLE SOCIALIST SANDWICH EATER!
posted by Artw at 5:53 AM on September 12, 2015 [13 favorites]


"HP3PAR STORESERV is a serious risk to our nation’s security, our economy’s security and your family’s security... This is a very serious moment for our country – the Conservatives will continue to deliver stability, security and opportunity for working people."

- Conservative Defence Secretary Michael Fallon
posted by garius at 5:56 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think, though, that the supporters Labour is losing to UKIP are old-school hardline protectionists from the unions

I think this is a tiny number in terms of voters (may be true in terms of activism, but not sure).

Labour lost votes to UKIP for a range of reasons, but I think that the largest single cause was that they had become incomprehensible to lower information voters. What Labour meant, other than "not the Tories", was so obscure at the last election that a lot of people were easily enticed away to UKIP's clear messaging on key issues, even though their actual policies were clearly contradictory and nonsensical to those of us who spend more energy and time on this stuff.

"We must do something. This is something. We must do this". Labour were nothing at the last election, and a lot of people just didn't care. The challenge now is not being something, it's getting it right. That's going to take work and dialogue. I implore you all to get involved in grassroots Labour activism right now. Thriving local parties, achieving things for local communities, are going to be the vital foundation of any hope of success in opposition and at the next election.

Bit rambling, I'm afraid, but most of the points I want to make are there, I think.
posted by howfar at 6:01 AM on September 12, 2015 [16 favorites]


"People who say their heart is with HP3PAR STORESERV: Get a transplant"

- Tony Blair
posted by brilliantmistake at 6:04 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


Old Labour sees the arts as an elitist luxury; the Tories think art is worth nothing if it's not profitable.

Oh, actually. Is this really true? It seems to me that almost the opposite has been true, historically, that arts spending has been something that politicians of all kinds like more than the electorate. I'm definitely not saying you're wrong, because I haven't thought about it very hard, but I'd be interested for more information on what leads you to this view.
posted by howfar at 6:04 AM on September 12, 2015


...and Corbyn sneaks out the side door, avoiding the media scrum out front, and goes for a "thank you" pint with his supporters first.
posted by garius at 6:10 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


Old Labour sees the arts as an elitist luxury; the Tories think art is worth nothing if it's not profitable.

Oh, actually. Is this really true? It seems to me that almost the opposite has been true,


Yeah, asfaik arts funding has already gone up under Labour... I remember Stewart Lee talking how a lot of comedians in the 80s came out of radical theater as it was no longer being funded. Crobyn has been very pro the arts.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:14 AM on September 12, 2015


This all makes me very hopeful for 2020, I just hope the coming attacks of the establishment and their media backers backfire as spectacularly. Both Corbyn and Watson dropped the word "comrade" in their victory speeches. I could hear Tories falling off their chairs from here.
posted by Acey at 6:15 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


BBC currently trying to peer through the window of the pub...
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:17 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


And Corbyn has got in a taxi!
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:17 AM on September 12, 2015


This is where 24 hour blanket news coverage really shines.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:18 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


HP3PAR STORESERV IS IN A TAXI
posted by garius at 6:19 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


Promising from Greg Dawson:

Just spoken to Jeremy Corbyn. He's confirmed he intends to have other Labour MPs take his role at some sessions of PMQs
posted by garius at 6:25 AM on September 12, 2015


The google news page from my computer is very depressing. The #1 Crobyn hit is Trump was tricked into tweeting congratulations and #2 hit is Crobyn is staunchly anti-Israel. Then they get to the BBC story, Telegraph, &c. Browsing incognito changed nothing. Today I learned why I stopped looking at the google news page for anything beside sports scores.
posted by bukvich at 6:28 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


effbot: "For somewhat unclear reasons, Twitter injected an ad into that stream saying that the truly right choice is a HP 3PAR StoreServ Storage server.
posted by effbot at 5:44 AM on September 12 [1 favorite +] [!] [quote]
"

eponysterical!
posted by chavenet at 6:30 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


I dig what Corbyn represents -- British leftists saying "finally, someone I can vote FOR" and actually doing it -- while I fear that grass-roots uprising enthusiasm will be difficult to maintain for four years. I fear that many of the things he stands for and says may make sense in context and when examined closely -- but who does that any more, when it's easier to take headlines like CORBYN TO ISRAEL: DROP DEAD or CORBYN SNOGS TERRORISTS AGAIN or MONSTER RAVING LABOUR PARTY at face value?
posted by delfin at 6:40 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


(I've been focussing so much on the news I didn't pay enough attention to the post - which is amazing, Rhaomi.)
posted by you must supply a verb at 6:41 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


Promising from Greg Dawson:

Just spoken to Jeremy Corbyn. He's confirmed he intends to have other Labour MPs take his role at some sessions of PMQs


Why is that promising? He's supposed to be the leader, and PMQs is where you rally your troops. It's an exercise in team morale. Not turning up means Cameron can paint him as too cowardly to face him. And then if he does show up he'll be (as happened at PMQs this week) showered with patronising cheers and applause from the Tory benches. It's a daft idea.
posted by sobarel at 6:44 AM on September 12, 2015


I fear that many of the things he stands for and says may make sense in context and when examined closely -- but who does that any more, when it's easier to take headlines like CORBYN TO ISRAEL: DROP DEAD or CORBYN SNOGS TERRORISTS AGAIN or MONSTER RAVING LABOUR PARTY at face value?

It seems to me that this is precisely the thing we have to work to change, even though it's massively difficult. The disproportionate dominance of a narrow range of press-sanctioned opinions is a profound sickness in British democracy, and it is something we have the tools to address. It will be astonishingly hard, yes, but the alternative is giving up and letting Murdoch and DMGT dictate our discourse forever.
posted by howfar at 7:01 AM on September 12, 2015 [9 favorites]


Why is that promising?

Because it acknowledges the risk I talked about before (differing views needing voices and acknowledgement) and shows some genuine thought about how to potentially tackle it.

Will it happen? If it does, will it work? Don't know. But acknowledging the problem exists is an important first step.
posted by garius at 7:04 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is Boris Johnson's wet dream.
posted by modernnomad at 7:08 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is Boris Johnson's wet dream

How so?
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:14 AM on September 12, 2015


This is Boris Johnson's wet dream.

OTOH, Johnson's Prime Ministerial prospects may have already been damaged by his subliminal resemblance to actual buffoon Donald Trump. I suspect a non-negligible proportion of low-information voters would misremember him making offensive remarks about Mexicans (perhaps mentally autocorrected to Spaniards or Poles or something) and women and such.
posted by acb at 7:15 AM on September 12, 2015


As far as I can see, all Labour has achieved today is to guarantee we'll get another five years of Tory rule after the next election. If that was the objective, then jolly well done to all concerned.
posted by Paul Slade at 7:17 AM on September 12, 2015


Rhaomi, this is some frankly incredible FPP composing. Hats off.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:21 AM on September 12, 2015 [15 favorites]


Another 5 years of Tory rule was already guaranteed.
This just means the Tories will have to win the election to get it.
posted by fullerine at 7:21 AM on September 12, 2015 [20 favorites]


As opposed to five years of the lesser evil sliced optimally thin; after all, if you only need to be mildly less unpalatable than the Tories, no point squandering your room to manoeuvre and/or what you have to offer to potential party donors and other stakeholders on the low-information dumbshits that constitute the peasantry.
posted by acb at 7:22 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


The Guardian has been a shower of shite throughout. My favourite recent article (literally within two hours of the announcement) was the "brocialism" one about how no woman was elected. Yes, that's what it was. Testes, not policies. Fuck the Guardian.
posted by longbaugh at 7:23 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


You do realise that more than one person writes for the Guardian, don't you?
posted by acb at 7:24 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


>This is Boris Johnson's wet dream

How so?


Because Labour has rendered themselves unelectable for the majority of the country until the next leadership cycle. Once Cameron has had enough, the Tories could put forward a buffoon like BoJo and he still would win against Corbyn.

The last thing the UK needed was another decade of brutal Tory-led austerity etc, but this choice pretty much seals it. A colossal fuck up by Labour.
posted by modernnomad at 7:30 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


Because Labour-led austerity would be better austerity?
posted by Grangousier at 7:31 AM on September 12, 2015 [22 favorites]


Yes, I do. It's been almost uniformly anti-Corbyn throughout.
posted by longbaugh at 7:31 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


As opposed to five years of the lesser evil cut optimally thin

Do you remember Ed Miliband? The surprise left-wing outsider who won the Labour leadership? Bit funny-looking but a nice chap. Drew a line under Blair and Iraq and swung the party to the left? Contested the last election on a manifesto full of red meat for the left? Provided a bigger distinction between Labour and Tories than at any time since the late 80s?

No, me either.
posted by sobarel at 7:34 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]



Do you remember Ed Miliband? The surprise left-wing outsider who won the Labour leadership?


You mean some post-Blair-era committee's idea of what a “left-wing outsider” who would still pass focus group testing might look like?
posted by acb at 7:36 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


No I don't mean that. Do you not remember how stunned the Labour establishment was by his surprise victory?
posted by sobarel at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


I genuinely thought it was sarcasm about how the deluded New Labour machine considered Red Ed left wing and thought his man of the people charm was going to win them the election against the posh boys.

They were just stunned that they got the brothers' names mixed up.
posted by fullerine at 7:42 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


But did Miliband lose because he was too left-wing to appeal to the sharp-elbowed Waitrose-shoppers or too indistinguishable from the Tories to anyone who hadn't bought into the identity of a possibly temporarily embarrassed buy-to-let multi-millionaire?
posted by acb at 7:43 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]




Some constructive stuff in this Grauniad write up considering the tone it has held up to now.

Though presumably asking Matthew former Spectator editor d'Ancona for his opinion is some sort of elaborate practical joke.
posted by brilliantmistake at 7:47 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Remember the awesome labour victory in Sxotlajd against unelectable socialists?
posted by Artw at 7:48 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Penny Red on What the Corbyn moment means for the left
What the party has done so far is panic in a manner so incoherent and undignified that the Tories have marvelled, finishing the popcorn and starting on the dodgy dips as they watch the chaos unfold. We are told that a “Free French” resistance is being plotted within the Labour Party. The image of Blairites and vacillating former Miliblands as a “resistance movement” is worth sav­ouring. What on earth would their slogans be? “What do we want? Strategic capitulation to the centre right with a view to contesting an election in five years!” “When do we want it? Subject to legal review!”
posted by zamboni at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2015 [32 favorites]


Is “Matthew d'Ancona” his actual name, or a nom de guerre taken from a character in Atlas Shrugged?
posted by acb at 7:53 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


Wait... what does Billy Bragg think?
Or Mark Steele?

*searches*
It's nice of Blair to help Jeremy Corbyn by saying 'don't vote for him'. If he asks his dictator friends to say it, that may help even more.

Okay.
I am probably Team Corbyn.
posted by Mezentian at 8:15 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


Billy Bragg seems quite keen. If him and Corbyn singing along to the red flag on the news an hour ago is anything to go by
posted by devon at 8:32 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


Most of my British friends are over the moon about this, having had a good long time to lose all faith in Labour, despise the watch-the-world-burn policies of the Tories, and genuinely fear the growing far right. What baffles me are the pleas to "think about the centrist voters". As with Sanders and his alleged unelectability, all I can think is: fuck the middle of the road. It's a nebulous, murky place that no one can ever really define but everyone seems to think is super-important to pander to for getting elected. And as candidates rush towards this foggy middle, more and more voters stay home. The middle is a trap and a lie and, as is being demonstrated on both sides of the Atlantic, no one has much trust in it anymore. Go Corbyn!
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:34 AM on September 12, 2015 [31 favorites]


In order to win the next election Labour have to gain around a hundred seats to win in the next election. Not keep; gain. The idea that Corbyn has suddenly made the party unelectable, after years decades of centrist TINA politics driving away staunch supporters and erasing difference between Labour and the public face of the Tory party, is pretty nuts.
posted by The River Ivel at 8:35 AM on September 12, 2015 [9 favorites]


In other news pigs were reported to fly past the windows of Whitehall this morning.

I still don't believe that Labor actually elected an actual socialist instead of some third way wannabe neoliberal.
posted by Talez at 8:39 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Do you remember Ed Miliband? The surprise left-wing outsider who won the Labour leadership?

Well he was a bit to the left of the Blairites and had a been a minister since 2006. Starting in Brown's camp he actually acted as a go-between to the Blairites so was seen as a uniting influence. There were a lot of interesting policies in the last manifesto but Miliband (and the party as a whole) was terrible at presentation and an overall depressing message of slightly less austerity than the Tories was not a great one. The strategy of nicking a few points from the Lib Dems, a few from the Greens and a few from elsewhere to get them just over the line was pretty much the wrong one in hindsight.

Still the Tories only have a majority of 11 and despite fiddling future planning fiddling of the boundaries I'm hopeful. A lot of his policies are straightforward genuinely popular with the majority of voters already - like re-nationalisation of the railways and a proper NHS. Once fully left-wing ideas are giving a public airing and the Overton Window starts to shift then things will get really interesting.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:39 AM on September 12, 2015 [5 favorites]


Labour has rendered themselves unelectable

The other candidates, on the other hand, none of which managed to garner a fifth of the total votes from their own party, are decidedly electable.
posted by klue at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2015 [34 favorites]


contested the last election on a manifesto full of red meat for the left?

This is really stretching the truth. There was some OK stuff in the manifesto, but so much of it was aspirational rather than concrete. What were the actual clear left-wing policies? 50p tax rate...bank bonus tax...0 hour contract ban...jobs guarantee and apprenticeships...umm...more childcare?

And that was fine, except that a lot of stuff was actually sidelined and barely sold to the electorate. And, of course, the old New Labour strategy of not actually committing to anything unless unavoidable, and only at the absolute last minute, meant that nothing actually settled in people's minds, because Labour had spent nearly 5 years saying fuck all. And the key stuff that should have been there: housing, environment, corporate tax reform, restoring the NHS, legal aid, transport infrastructure investment... All that stuff was woefully vague and barely touched on. Saying you're going to get houses built without saying who will build them and why is not a serious housing policy.

What was the underlying problem? That Labour have come to think that you win elections by being vague and nice. Labour have come to think that Blair was great at winning over voters because he once beat the most broken and hated government in post war history, and managed to beat a demented Tory party a couple of times after that (albeit with less votes in 2005 than Kinnock managed in 1992). Labour has to work out what it actually is, just like the Tories had to. It took them a decade, pretty much. I'm glad to see Labour taking steps to do it as early as this.
posted by howfar at 8:46 AM on September 12, 2015 [14 favorites]


What was the underlying problem? That Labour have come to think that you win elections by being vague and nice.

Labor of the past decade don't want the Torys to keep shouting from the rooftops that they're going to spend other people's money on the poor. I expect Corbyn will stand there on the news and say "we're not going to spend other people's money on the poor, we're going to spend rich people's money on the less fortunate you bunch of twats".
posted by Talez at 9:02 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


Yeah, the image that Blair was some sort of election winning machine has a been a problem for the Labour party... when he first beat the Tories they were in such a state post Black Monday and the various Back To Basics scandals pretty much anybody could have beaten them. Blair then lost votes in each election after that, winning because of reduced turn out and the Tories having leaders that were just plain creepy (The Quiet Man and The Man Of The Night). Then they got an Eton Toff but the Clanking Fist of Brown was equally a turn off for voters.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:06 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Another major problem was letting the Tories have all the running re the crash being because Labour spent too much... (Labour should have put more regulation on the banks, but that's another story)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:07 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


phew.

ᕕ༼ ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ⌐■-■

"Redistributes the popcorn equitably so everyone can have some."
heh. You beat me to it, chavenet. Popcorns for all!

*passing seadog-shaped popcorns across the waters, where flying spaghetti monsters sleep*

mumsnet ovaries exploding
(somebody follow this up with a socialist joke plz)

re: feminist social justice warriors - shadow cabinet planned to have at least 50% women, ladies

"abuse thrown at him over the course of the Labour leadership campaign has been "deeply hurtful" to his family and close friends... He said they were a symptom of today's "yah-boo politics"... that one of the main reasons behind the consistently low turnout at elections in the UK was due to people being "totally turned off by a style of politics which seem to rely on the levels of clubhouse theatrical abuse we throw at each other in parliament and throw at each other across the airwaves."


Harry Potter himself approves, 'He reminds me in the loveliest way of my English teacher'


Solidarity with Refugees, Billy Bragg, Red Flag

Guardian Live:
Syriza approves; Twitter approves; Murdoch no fan: "Hard left Corbyn wins in landslide, goes on TV singing "Red Flag". How did Cameron get this lucky? Hope he doesn't slack off." (Tangent: Murdoch recently bought National Geographic)

"At least two Tories are warning their party not to become cocky in the light of Jeremy Corbyn’s victory", with
Nick Hurd, former minister, tweeting "Congrats to @jeremycorbyn on stunning victory .Caution my party against complacency. Cocky Tory always a bad look. #one nation", and
Daniel Hannan, the Tory MEP, tweeting: "My final thought on the #labourleadership: there is now a real danger of Tory cockiness and complacency. ", and linking to his post, "Corbyn victory would be bad for the Conservative Party"
and

analysis by Andrew Sparrow, recommended



Now for the main course, Two Dinners*

source, re: Tom Watson on Mefi

"skilled political assassin, lethally efficient political fixer... truly believes he’s a good person trying to do the right thing... that’s what makes him so interesting, so formidable, and so dangerous... New Statesman quoted a Labour insider talking about Mr Corbyn and Mr Watson as Trotsky and Stalin... " (wtf lolololol)

"One joke that has been doing the rounds in Parliament is that when the result of the Labour leadership contest is announced, it will be Trotsky for leader with Stalin as deputy... with Trotsky dead, an ice pick in his brain. Tom Watson does not think the joke works; he was at pains to point out in a recent interview that Jeremy Corbyn is no Trotsky. And despite a family link to the old Communist Party of Great Britain, he would demur at being cast as Stalin.
His teenager’s knowledge of the music scene proved useful when the party teamed up with the singer Billy Bragg and his left-wing management to launch Red Wedge, an attempt to use music and youth culture to attract votes in the run up to the 1987 general election.

"The Labour party is a 20th-century organisation trying to solve 21st-century problems"

Last, not least: great profile of Watson a while back

*obligatory husky shamimg tsk tsk
posted by pos at 9:14 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


Been watching the BBC and the narrative constructing that is going on is appalling: the constant "oooh, he has to reach out now or else" commentary not just from the talking heads is incredibly disengenous and sly - who on earth sez he is not going to do just that, but the message it send is that he doesn't want to do it is pernicious and unfounded. And just now on BBC news - ooh he's a vegetarian, as if that's an effective way of calling someone a crank when 5-10% of the UK is, and "he's never far from his bike"- painting him as an eccentric weirdo, it's so dishonest and evil in its intent to create divides between people. The people who aren't "reaching out" are Cooper and the rest who are resigning, and quite precisely "taking their ball home", which Cooper tweets is what she's not doing. But Corbyn will get the blame for "divisiveness. grr.
posted by runincircles at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2015 [8 favorites]


In other news pigs were reported to fly past the windows of Whitehall this morning.

We do not mention pigs and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, ever.
Not even the alternate PM.

It is too soon.
posted by Mezentian at 9:26 AM on September 12, 2015 [19 favorites]


Labour has rendered themselves unelectable

We hear this a lot. I can't help but remember that we only had a general election 4 months ago, and despite five years of Tory abuse of the poor, of benefit cuts for the poor and tax cuts for the rich, of the abuse of the unemployed, of efforts to dismantle the NHS, of the further dismantling of even more of the welfare state and the turning over of more of the state to greedy yet incompetent private providers that the Labour Party HAD ALREADY RENDERED ITSELF UNELECTABLE. It couldn't get huge swathes of the country to vote for it. It lost an entire country, because the voters there felt that they had some alternative; it only held London and the North of England because there was no alternative there.

And what did they offer? A shift to the right, to be even more Tory-like from Kendall. More of the same from Cooper. Minor changes from Burnham. Which of those options would make them electable?

I think Labour is going to have problems claiming back seats lost in southern England but it would have had the same problems with the losing candidates as they will with Corbyn, and none of them were saying anything that would address that.
posted by biffa at 9:29 AM on September 12, 2015 [28 favorites]


ᕕ༼ ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ⌐■-■

haters gon hate

*passing seadog-shaped popcorns across the waters, where flying spaghetti monsters sleep*
posted by pos at 9:30 AM on September 12, 2015


"My final thought on the #labourleadership: there is now a real danger of Tory cockiness and complacency. " Says Tory MEP immediately after tweeting picture of Stalin banner, 1984 screenshot and coffin with a red rose on it
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:36 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


Some good news, six Labour types have said they won't serve in the Corbyn front bench. Particularly happy to see the back of Rachel 'tougher than Tories on benefits' Reeves, and her winning approach to making people poorer.
posted by biffa at 9:37 AM on September 12, 2015 [10 favorites]


What I've seen of the BBC coverage has been openly and enthusiastically anti-Corbyn. My sister alerted me on Facebook that someone we were at school with - Tom Baldwin - was on Newsnight, so I switched over for a gawp. It was a piece on Corbyn, and What It Would Mean For The Labour Party. They had Millibandite Baldwin and a Tory of some flavour in the studio and a representative of Corbyn on a monitor (so she was essentially cut out of the conversation except when required to reply to questions along the lines of "Will Jeremy Corbyn bring down Western Civilisation?") The interviewer was very keen that the conversation run along the lines of how dreadful Corbyn was and how his election would lead to human sacrifice, cats and dogs living together and mass hysteria.
posted by Grangousier at 9:47 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


I hope that Tristram Hunt writes more popular history books now that he's going to have more time on his hands; 10 Cities That Made An Empire was a great read.
posted by acb at 9:48 AM on September 12, 2015


Despite the back and forth over whether the BBC is pro-Labour or biased towards the Tories, what is really apparent is that the BBC is pro-establishment. It favours the status quo, the two or occasionally three party system, royal events, good chaps from Oxbridge in the plum roles. Essentially, its about our kind of people doing the kind of thing our kind of people do, all of us playing the game together. It was obviated by the Scottish referendum and its obvious with Corbyn.
posted by biffa at 10:00 AM on September 12, 2015 [13 favorites]


Grassroots victory the easy bit: "If you backed him, you now have a responsibility. Get active, build a movement in your own community and start organising to win over those who are unconvinced. Without those efforts, this will fail.", says Owen Jones
posted by pos at 10:01 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


> Because Labour has rendered themselves unelectable for the majority of the country until the next leadership cycle.

It takes an intense fixity of vision get that message from a near-record landslide and a massive outflow of enthusiasm for a party that hasn't managed to generate any energy at all in nearly a decade of miserable election results.

The UK is becoming increasingly unlivable for 99% of Britons, and everyone knows it. Corbyn is an expression of hope that things can improve.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2015 [10 favorites]


Not everyone knows it, just those not part of the media or political establishment.
posted by fullerine at 10:09 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think the BBC's attitude is all the more shocking to those that remember it during the 80s when it was pretty damn radical at times... Boys From The Blackstuff etc. It was always pro-establishment but there was always room for other points of view. Since it became much more corporate those have shrunk to nothing.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:10 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


Since it became was actively transformed into a much more corporate culture those have shrunk to nothing.

FTFY
posted by lalochezia at 10:14 AM on September 12, 2015 [9 favorites]


Metafilter: "He wears his big heart on his sleeve. His interests – computer games, obscure indy rock – are unashamedly geeky. Other weepy nerds might get bullied in the playground of life, but no one pushes Mr Watson around. Some of his Labour colleagues are frightened of him, literally frightened."
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


"We've been moving steadily to the right for twenty years and we've been doing nothing but lose ground to the Tories. Obviously the problem is that we haven't moved far enough to the right yet!"

Ask the Democrats how well that works.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:18 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


Apparently there was a rather confused table of American tourists in the pub Corbyn and his supporters went to after the announcement:
Corbyn also apologised to four American tourists from his “favourite city” of Chicago who had gone to the pub to have fish and chips for their lunch. The Americans inadvertently found themselves squeezed into a corner as the pub was occupied by hundreds of activists cheering on the left-wing politician – but even they were won over by Corbynmania.

“He came across as very, very personable,” said Republican-voting retiree David Patton afterwards, while mopping up his mushy peas. “He was very comfortable with us. Obviously he’s dedicated to what he’s running for. Anyone who can attract this many young people at his age must really having something. If I lived here I’d definitely vote for him.”
From here.

I think "won over" is perhaps an exaggeration. I doubt Republican-voting Mr Patton would likely agree with much of Corbyn's stance on things in reality.
posted by garius at 10:19 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, strip the name from the policies and most folks agree with a liberal agenda so who knows...
posted by longbaugh at 10:21 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


The media groups are always pushing the idea that left of third way it's a void of ideas that must not be taken serious. In here it's the "arco de governabilidade" (roughly "Governability Radius"), which includes the faux social-democrats, the christian right (joined at the hip for the past years and running together this year) and the Third-Way Socialist Party. Having an alliance with the Communist/Green coalition or the Left Bloc is occasionally hinted and, but denied quickly because omg commies. A very likely outcome is a central bloc with all three parties, because people were conditioned to think that only those three parties can have a say on deciding the path the country takes, and all others are noise.

The fight is against that shitstain mentality that no ideas are valid unless they come from that "center" that is so friendly to banks and capital. Majority-only ruling is a tool of weak politicians, or those controlled by others.
posted by lmfsilva at 10:23 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think "won over" is perhaps an exaggeration. I doubt Republican-voting Mr Patton would likely agree with much of Corbyn's stance on things in reality.

On the contrary, an overwhelmingly large majority of Americans like many liberal ideas when they're either not called liberal or come from a "conservative".
posted by Talez at 10:23 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


I wonder if the real reason why Labour may be "unelectable" in 2020 is not so much because of Corbyn, but instead because different elements or factions within the Labour Party itself will be unable to find common ground and work together to win that election.

Which would be a shame.
posted by Nevin at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


The fight is against that shitstain mentality that no ideas are valid unless they come from that "center" that is so friendly to banks and capital.

Like Rachel Reeves "exploding the myth" that "Labour is soft on benefits"?

It's like one level removed from straight out "fuck the poor" coming from a party founded by socialists.
posted by Talez at 10:25 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


The Tories by all accounts already have a giant dossier of material on Corbyn, and will use every trick in the book (innuendo, guilt by association, outright lies) to paint him as an extremist, a threat to national security, and a friend of scary Islamic people. They will drip feed items from this dossier to the Sun, the Express, the Mail, and the Telegraph, and wait for each hit piece to be uncritically amplified and reproduced by the Very Serious Journalistic Commentators at the BBC. In a year's time, every pensioner south of Leicester will believe that Corbyn is Britain's most dangerous man, who should either be imprisoned, sectioned, or droned. Or perhaps all three simultaneously.

People outside the UK underestimate the sheer oppressive power of the right-wing press here, and the way it acts in close concert with the Tories to advance and protect the City interests that own them both. It's more effective than mind control.
posted by Sonny Jim at 10:30 AM on September 12, 2015 [8 favorites]


To which the response from Watson appears to be "come at me bro" ;)
posted by fullerine at 10:36 AM on September 12, 2015 [9 favorites]


Watson's already been on Murdoch's shit list, to the point of being sued by him (from memory), so I doubt he's got any delusions about the press challenge ahead.
posted by garius at 10:38 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jez we did!

He was my MP for many years and the guy is basically organically composed of socialist activism. He will be pulling out the drip from his arm when he's on his deathbed to go to a demo.

A nice tweet today has been going round showing contrasting photos of what Corbyn was up to in the 80s compared to what David Cameron was doing: Corbyn's being dragged off by police on an anti-apartheid demo, Cameron's preening himself in full Bullingdon Club attire.
posted by colie at 10:46 AM on September 12, 2015 [18 favorites]


The Tories by all accounts already have a giant dossier of material on Corbyn, and will use every trick in the book (innuendo, guilt by association, outright lies) to paint him as an extremist, a threat to national security, and a friend of scary Islamic people. They will drip feed items from this dossier to the Sun, the Express, the Mail, and the Telegraph, and wait for each hit piece to be uncritically amplified and reproduced by the Very Serious Journalistic Commentators at the BBC.

Mate, the right wing press aren't waiting for the Tories. Check out the way the Daily Mail wrote the announcement right from the first sentence.
"Karl Marx admirer Jeremy Corbyn"
posted by Talez at 10:47 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Corbyn to force Metafilter to use a red background" warns MP
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:51 AM on September 12, 2015 [27 favorites]


The Tories are already doing slightly deranged mass mailouts with 'menacing' black and white shots of Corbyn, claiming he's a threat to national security based on the Bin Laden 'tragedy' comments.

Meanwhile, Corbyn just sent me a nice email titled 'It's an honour to serve you' and asked for suggestions on what he should ask Cameron at PMQs on Wednesday.
posted by jack_mo at 11:03 AM on September 12, 2015 [9 favorites]


Email I've just received from our Jezza asking for suggestions for questions to put at PMQs next week -

Dear Matt,

It is a deep honour to be elected as our party's new leader. The honour is not about holding office - it is about the opportunity to serve each and every one one of you in the fight to get a better government for our country.

I want to pay tribute to Andy, Yvette and Liz. As the last few weeks have shown, each of them cares passionately about our party and its values and has made a fantastic contribution to it.

If you voted for me, thank you for putting your faith in me. If you didn't vote for me, I hope I will win your trust and support in the coming months. Whoever you supported, we must come together to serve the millions of people who desperately need a Labour government.

The Labour Party is the joint endeavour of each and every one of us. I want to use your talents to make us stronger, and I want to represent you.

So, help me be your representative. When I stand at the despatch box for Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday, I want to be your voice.

What do you want to ask David Cameron? Tell me now and I will put your questions to him in parliament. My questions will be your questions.

Let's hold this government to account together with straight-talking, honest politics.

Thank you for your commitment to building a better future. I look forward to working with you.

Best wishes,

Jeremy Corbyn

posted by brilliantmistake at 11:05 AM on September 12, 2015 [13 favorites]


You're skipping over the really impressive digital act of the day - Tom Watson emailed us during his acceptance speech.

Now that's multitasking.
posted by garius at 11:14 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


will use every trick in the book (innuendo, guilt by association, outright lies) to paint him as an extremist, a threat to national security, and a friend of scary Islamic people.

There are a couple of options missed off that list. The first is what was done to Tony Benn: paint him as basically an English eccentric, harmless enough if you just ignore him, but fundamentally a bit mad (no matter how many times he clearly and directly states something completely rational and obvious).

The other one is rape allegations.
posted by colie at 11:22 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Karl Marx admirer Jeremy Corbyn"

OK, I've been meaning to ask this for a while now, and this is as good an opportunity as any:

Maybe I have blindspots to other parts of the world. I realize Fox News is truly hateful, for example, but it seems most of the media in America is corporatist-to-mediocre, with most of the bile contained in this one network. I just notice a lot of truly awful right-wing media in the UK. It seems to be everywhere. How do you read headlines like the above and not throw your laptop through a window? I would go insane if I were surrounded by this stuff all the time. What does it take?
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:27 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


rizlas and their contents
posted by lalochezia at 11:29 AM on September 12, 2015 [10 favorites]


I just notice a lot of truly awful right-wing media in the UK.

A lot of it is the fault of the BBC. It sets an agenda based on the false notion of 'balance' and moves the debate to the right by inches. The space left for serious analysis is filled with nonsense while the BBC's naive staff look on.
posted by colie at 11:31 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


How do you read headlines like the above and not throw your laptop through a window? I would go insane if I were surrounded by this stuff all the time. What does it take?

Consumption of a lot of tea, combined with muttering at the radio.
posted by Happy Dave at 11:32 AM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


A lot of it is the fault of the BBC. It sets an agenda based on the false notion of 'balance' and moves the debate to the right by inches. The space left for serious analysis is filled with nonsense while the BBC's naive staff look on.

That's a dynamic I can relate to. That makes sense, thank you.

Also relate to the rizlas and their contents. Is there nothing they can't fix?
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:38 AM on September 12, 2015


There are a couple of options missed off that list. The first is what was done to Tony Benn: paint him as basically an English eccentric, harmless enough if you just ignore him, but fundamentally a bit mad (no matter how many times he clearly and directly states something completely rational and obvious).

I don't think they'll be bothering with that. Here's the Tory mailout I mentioned above - they're just absolutely hammering the 'terrifying communist wants to steal your money, loves terrorists' angle.
posted by jack_mo at 11:42 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


They do like their black, white and red copy don't they. Remember the Blair "devil eyes" poster?
posted by longbaugh at 11:47 AM on September 12, 2015


The remarkable thing about Corbyn's victory is how remarkable it is” — Cory ‘The Obvious’ Doctorow.
posted by scruss at 11:47 AM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


How do you read headlines like the above and not throw your laptop through a window?

Most people on the left of the British Labour Party don't see calling someone an admirer of Marx as an insult or an inaccuracy.

I'm sure it's nothing Corbyn hasn't repeatedly acknowledged.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:47 AM on September 12, 2015 [5 favorites]


Yeah, not the best example, I admit. I don't think liking Marx is at all a bad thing.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 12:15 PM on September 12, 2015


The myth that Corbyn (or indeed any genuine leftwing politician) is unelectable really should die and frankly any leftist repeating such bullshit is doing the tories' job for them. He has real populist policies (renationalising the railways for instance is favoured by the whole population including a majority of tory voters) and has proven to be a charismatic, authentic speaker. His smug tory and vacuous blairite rivals have nothing of substance to attack him with so just repeat the mantra of unelectability like they'll make it true if they repeat it a million times and wish hard enough. I'm not saying that manufacturing consensus through repetition doesn't work as a technique - it worked well enough with "Labour caused the financial crisis" and "Labour lost the general election because they were too left wing" - but its effectiveness has been dependent on the non-existence of any counter-narrative, whereas the whole joy of Corbyn is that an alternative discourse seems possible now.

If the last five years of politics has taught us anything, with Cleggmania to Lib-Dem annihilation, from the rise of UKIP and Greens, and of course the SNP's total takeover of Scotland, it should be obvious that there is no such thing as "business as usual" any more. Frankly, all bets are off, quite literally. The polls were badly wrong about the general election results and the bookies about the leadership election. When people who crunch data for a living are so wide of the mark, why should we pay any attention to random pundits? Today is a day to be hopeful, and it isn't just blind faith to suggest that Corbyn has a genuine chance of becoming PM in 2020.
posted by iivix at 12:29 PM on September 12, 2015 [45 favorites]


On a personal level, I just find it a relief to have a politician who isn't fucking grinning all the time. Even Osborne tries to wear a likeable smile, which is a mistake because he's a skeletor.

Corbyn seems more interested in politics than having people like him. I hadn't really noticed how irritating the desperate emotional neediness of modern politicians is, until directly contrasted with Corbyn.
posted by howfar at 1:05 PM on September 12, 2015 [17 favorites]


This "what Corbyn and Blair were doing in the 80s" comparison should be enough to convince anyone.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:19 PM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


Well, anyone who wasn't pro-apartheid or pro-tuxedo I guess.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:20 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


Blair, Cameron. Schmameron. Hard to tell the difference, to be fair.
posted by motty at 1:40 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


You know what? Maybe I should have some more coffee. I'll pop back later.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:41 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


there's been so much shitty news comping out of the uk recently. this is the first thing for ages that has made me smile.

i'm pretty sure it'll end in tears, but why the fuck not give it a try?

closing thought: a world where trump is us president and corbyn uk pm is now even closer.
posted by andrewcooke at 2:13 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


During the late 90's Rolf Harris played Glastonbury. Huge crowds sang along. But everyone knew, at heart, their support for the children's entertainer of their youths was just a comforting, nostalgic defiance against Britpop's empty domination.

Corbyn won't survive this Parliament. Fingers crossed Tom Watson or Stella Creasy eventually take over.
posted by Brian Lux at 2:43 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Karl Marx admirer Jeremy Corbyn"


Too much, too soon. If they keep up at this pace, pretty soon it's going to be "Noted Sendero Luminoso Auxiliary Member Jeremy Corbyn," or "The Chavez of Chppenham Jeremy Corbyn," or "The Fidel of Finsbury Park," and everyone will just be confused.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:44 PM on September 12, 2015 [6 favorites]


While I wouldn't agree with quite a lot of his politics, it will be a refreshing change to have someone in the driving seat who isn't a smooth-talking, sharp-suited, completely interchangeable git (of either sex). I think we are into "interesting times," and await PMQs with interest.

And I don't think he'll be a pushover... the Corbyns are not known for changing their opinions, even if they are unpopular.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 3:27 PM on September 12, 2015


The Chavez of Chppenham Jeremy Corbyn

That'd be “The Chavez of Canonbury”, which is in Islington North (or close enough to it).
posted by acb at 3:34 PM on September 12, 2015


When Corbyn started pointing out that there are some very uncomfortable questions for UK plc when it comes to the Syria situation, it looked very much like Liz Kendall took half a step backwards. I would think a fair few people do that whenever he tells the truth about things.

That said, far too many people in the UK still listen to the daily dumb-down provided by their media provider of choice and then toddle off to watch the X Factor or that horrific dancing show. While this situation continues I don't see how too much will change politically. It's a lot like people enjoy being shafted by the Tories, and enjoy being told the alternatives are no good.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 3:48 PM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


On the 'electability' question - one of the best pre-leadership election pieces out there was this personal blogpost by journalist Simon Ricketts, and it's even more on-the-money in the light of today's result:

You're already dead

Corbyn was the MP for the local newspaper where I served my time as a trainee reporter, and then political reporter, back in 2000/01. In all my dealings with him, he struck me as likeable, passionate and deeply genuine.

I've also spent 15 years citing him to people as an example of the career backbencher, to prove that there are such people in politics. If you'd told me in 2000 that this is where we'd be today, I would have been utterly dumbfounded.

But as someone who was pretty much born into the Labour Party, who joined and then left again while still in my teens, (when I saw Blair send his son halfway across London to The Oratory, so he could fulfill his commitment to state education without having to actually go near any poor people) I can't help - now aged 41 - but be delighted.

God only knows what the future will hold for the Labour Party, but it can't be worse than the beige oblivion it was headed for pre-Jezza.
posted by penguin pie at 3:48 PM on September 12, 2015 [17 favorites]


When Corbyn started pointing out that there are some very uncomfortable questions for UK plc when it comes to the Syria situation, it looked very much like Liz Kendall took half a step backwards. I would think a fair few people do that whenever he tells the truth about things.

He sounded like one of those people who's supposed to think and look at the big picture before bombing a region into glass. Oh yes, a leader.
posted by Talez at 4:03 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


If Corbyn can pull off the whole 'Social Justice Farage' shtick, then all bets really will be off. He needs to get a solid economic message together to counter the no-alternative-to-austerity narrative - which is most certainly possible, but needs the right people - and he needs to keep the right wing of Labour onside. What will make 2020 absolutely impossible is if the party's imploded in the meantime. And anything that relies on post-Blair Labour having large reserves of common sense is going to be a fun game to play. I would put good money on Tom Watson's mobile glowing red-hot at this point.

The EU referendum will also be a big challenge, just for added spice.

Scottish Labour, meanwhile, is sinking in a quagmire of cognitive dissonance. So no change there.
posted by Devonian at 4:28 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


which is most certainly possible, but needs the right people

Corbyn's greaest weakness is not his policies, but the people he surrounds himself with. There are a lot of Trots. A lot of Trots.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:04 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Corbyn's greaest weakness is not his policies, but the people he surrounds himself with. There are a lot of Trots. A lot of Trots.

He's a man of the people and he reflects their views. That's why they surround him.

So far he's been able to avoid hard questions because he's been too irrelevant. Now that he's Labour's leader he won't be able to get away with this quite as easily. Taylor Parkes' article (linked above by vac2003) is beautiful and genuine and very much worth reading.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:38 PM on September 12, 2015


the taylor parkes article is banging on about charlie hesbo (the implication is corbyn is [summarizing in the article's terms] the kind of leftist that makes no distinction between racism and blasphemy and didn't support hesbo). so i went and googled "corbyn hesbo". and it turns out corbyn was primary sponsor for a motion in support of freedom of expression, defending hesbo.

something doesn't seem right.
posted by andrewcooke at 5:53 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


This is a very interesting article on Corbyn by Taylor Parkes....

I know very little about Brit politics but this dude can really write.
posted by storybored at 5:53 PM on September 12, 2015


"Time is very, very short."

And this article is very, very long.

It's also the same "I want a left-wing candidate but Corbyn in particular is awful" bollocks that middle-class, metropolitan pseudo-liberals have been spouting for months.
posted by howfar at 6:01 PM on September 12, 2015 [12 favorites]


So far he's been able to avoid hard questions because he's been too irrelevant. Now that he's Labour's leader he won't be able to get away with this quite as easily

I feel like The Guardian did a very good job of outlining all the problems with Corbyn. So thorough were their endless articles on his many issues that like by the end all I knew about were his issues and how he was a raving socialist who would never get elected. (I was not similarly informed about the flaws of the other candidates, mind you, but I guess they didn't have any, despite none of them cracking 20% among Labour votes for the leadership.) They dislike him more than high speed rail to the north, which is impressive because they dislike that almost as much as Scottish Independence.

I guess this is why I don't get the worry about how the Tory press will deal with him: if he proves unelectable it will have as much to do with papers like the Guardian and people in positions of power in Labour not wanting to listen to what their own electorate wants as anything else.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 6:25 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


closing thought: a world where trump is us president and corbyn uk pm is now even closer.

I have so many complex reactions to this statement.

I am not sure the pros outweigh the cons, frankly.
posted by Mezentian at 7:13 PM on September 12, 2015


From the comparison link:

I know of someone who was at school w/ them who watched Boris & other Bullingdons burn £50s in front of homeless 4fun

I just... I'm going to watch YouTube videos of him harassing Thatcher. She seems great. A man who wears a jumper his mum knitted is all right with me.
posted by Mezentian at 7:20 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's also the same "I want a left-wing candidate but Corbyn in particular is awful" bollocks that middle-class, metropolitan pseudo-liberals have been spouting for months.

People have been saying this about Corbyn for years, actually. It's just that he wasn't under particular scrutiny, not being the Labour leader, so you wouldn't get headlines about him saying things like this:
There was a time when people involved in Umkhonto we Sizwe in South Africa were known as terrorists; they were later welcomed to this country as freedom fighters. Things can turn full circle.

None of what I am saying is intended to give any succour, comfort or support to ISIS, but I feel that we should think about this rather more carefully and avoid the knee-jerk reaction of saying, “These are bad fighters and those are good fighters, so we will ban these and allow those in.”
I actually think that the legacy of Umkhonto we Sizwe's violence continues to harm South Africa, but at least it was ostensibly and primarily directed towards ending Apartheid and establishing an egalitarian society. People didn't defend UwS on the grounds that it might change: they said it was part of the struggle for South African freedom.

ISIS is not part of the struggle for Syrian or any other sort of freedom. It is purely focused on implementing an Islamic theocracy and we have already seen the sort of society it wishes to create. It has literally reintroduced slavery; it literally treats women as chattels; it has literally abolished freedom of thought and the press and all other things contrary to its ideology.

A principled left-wing stance would be to acknowledge our obligation to respect the rights of Syrians, particular the most vulnerable ones, and to ask how we can honour that. I think a very modest answer would be that we have a duty to prevent people joining ISIS and to prevent ISIS gathering funds and recruiting members. Corbyn did make a substantive point - what about the human rights of ISIS supporters? (NB: I think his concern for hypothetical risks they may face is rather misplaced) but most of his response was directed to the fact that there are other bad people in Syria besides ISIS. And of course there are. But even if ISIS were not the very worst, that would not excuse our failure to act in regards to ISIS: it's not like we were proposing to have al-Nusra rape women instead. Time and again, Corbyn's "policies" amount to what-aboutery. There's no substance there, and there's no principle either. It's a negative policy zone.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:32 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]




I think a very modest answer would be that we have a duty to prevent people joining ISIS and to prevent ISIS gathering funds and recruiting members.

It is, then, a good job, that Corbyn has made clear (in the debate linked in this very thread), that this is his policy position. All this handwringing to the contrary is at best mistaken and at worst in bad faith, much like the misrepresentations of Corbyn's position on Charlie Hebdo in the article you recommended.
posted by howfar at 8:15 PM on September 12, 2015 [10 favorites]


It's also his position that he doesn't like ISIS and that he does like égalité and rainbows. What action does Corbyn propose? Any action at all? I can tell you what he says in that debate:

"I feel that we should think about this rather more carefully [...]
"We should be slightly cautious [...]
"We must understand where we have come from and how we will get through this [...]"

Yes, very good Jeremy, but now you've had time for your ratiocination - what is your policy?
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:32 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes, very good Jeremy, but now you've had time for your ratiocination - what is your policy?

Demanding our leaders make gut policy decisions using limited information and without looking into the implications of those decisions within the wider scale is the reason we're in this whole shitstorm in the Middle East in the first place. Why do people continue to encourage this irresponsible course of action by demanding simple and concrete policy on things that are extremely fucking complicated?

Listen to the debate. He outlines what needs to be done. He can't tell you what his final policy is other than "think the situation through" because who knows what the fuck the answers are to several hundred of those very important variables and each of those could change what may be the best thing to do in any given situation.
posted by Talez at 8:41 PM on September 12, 2015 [21 favorites]


"Mount a serious political initiative across the entire region including Turkey, Iran and all the other countries and ask ourselves some quite hard questions. Where does ISIS gets its arms from, where does it get its money from, where does it sell its oil to, who is buying that oil, why are the borders around so leaky and also how many of the arms that we’ve sold to various countries in the region have ended up in the hands of ISIS?...You support the refugees that are fleeing, you try to bring about a political process and interestingly, I actually agree with the Foreign Secretary on this point, he went to Teheran to reopen the Embassy there and I have real concerns about human rights in Iran but nevertheless there has to be a relationship with Iran and he made the point that since this agreement may be successful with the USA, there is a real possibility you could bring about a proper political dialogue across the entire region that involves everybody except ISIL. That provides some possibility and some hope."

Those are clearer policy positions than anyone else in the debate offered. Why aren't you having a go at Liz Kendall?
posted by howfar at 8:51 PM on September 12, 2015 [26 favorites]


Those are clearer policy positions than anyone else in the debate offered. Why aren't you having a go at Liz Kendall?

Because people don't want nuance. They don't want a list of difficult things that are going to take time and require patience and fucktons of effort to be resolved. That's not policy. They just want to know if there's going to be boots on the ground and witty headlines in The Sun about "our boys" shoving things up the arse of this week's avowed enemy.
posted by Talez at 8:58 PM on September 12, 2015 [9 favorites]


He can't tell you what his final policy is other than "think the situation through" because who knows what the fuck the answers are to several hundred of those very important variables and each of those could change what may be the best thing to do in any given situation.

Sorry, Talez, it doesn't work that way. He's a member of Parliament participating in a debate on that very subject, which he knew about for weeks. The bill was in committee, it was discussed, evidence was presented, Corbyn was present or had access to all of that. This was the time to decide whether or not to support the government's plan of action, and the best Corbyn could do is stand up, waggle his beard and say "We must think about this very seriously!"

No. At some point you have to take a position. Allow ex-Jihadists back into the UK or not? If they're allowed back into the UK, should they be allowed to leave? What other restrictions should be imposed upon them? What measures should be in place to discourage the radicalisation of other people? Yes, it's all stuff that should be thought about seriously, but at some time you need to decide, one way or another. And there's Corbyn with his silly face bleating "We should be cautious!"
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:01 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wait wait wait wait wait, he's talking about pulling together a geopolitical effort the likes which has never been attempted and you're focusing on whether he's going to let ex-jihadists who are already banned from the UK back into the country?

This is like the opposite of Nixon goes to China. A socialist gets elected as leader of the fucking Labour party and he has to prove his stern hardliner chops on irrelevant bullshit first?
posted by Talez at 9:08 PM on September 12, 2015 [14 favorites]


You guys realize that ISIS is a direct result of The neocon stance that Blair rushed to support with false intelligence, right? No Blair, no ISIS.
posted by Artw at 9:10 PM on September 12, 2015 [11 favorites]


Joe, Corbyn laid out the clearest policy position of anyone in the campaign, on the very issues you claim to want addressed. No one reading this thread is ever going to believe that your opposition to Corbyn is a result of him lacking policies on these points. It seems like a bit of a waste of energy.
posted by howfar at 9:15 PM on September 12, 2015 [38 favorites]


No one reading this thread is ever going to believe that your opposition to Corbyn is a result of him lacking policies on these points.

Bravo, good sir. Bra-fucking-vo.
posted by Talez at 9:29 PM on September 12, 2015 [11 favorites]


People can not like Corbyn or think he's useless or harmful or even dangerous because he's so Red Labour, but one thing he can't truthfully be accused of is not having policies.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:03 AM on September 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


The Artist Taxi Driver's typically understated reaction to Crobyn's victory
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:43 AM on September 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Ian Mearns MP is tweeting that over 15000 people have joined the Labour Party since the announcement of the result.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:49 AM on September 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


The Tories by all accounts already have a giant dossier of material on Corbyn, and will use every trick in the book (innuendo, guilt by association, outright lies) to paint him as an extremist, a threat to national security, and a friend of scary Islamic people.

The Labour Party is now a threat to our national security, our economic security and your family's security.
posted by aihal at 3:06 AM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]




From a friend: "Thus making the Tories the political equivalent of the guy with a 'the end is nigh! Repent!!!' sign in the middle of town who all sensible people ignore."
posted by aihal at 3:40 AM on September 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


The last Labour leader to represent an inner London seat, indeed the last leader of any major party to do so, was in his 60s by the time he became Prime Minister. He was unfashionable, disdainful of the media and he stood on a platform that promoted peace and investment in public services and housing, even with the country facing massive debts.

Clement Attlee went on to be Labour’s greatest Prime Minister. And while few may believe that Jeremy Corbyn can follow in his footsteps as he slips into the leader’s shoes today, one thing is for sure: He comes from the right place.


Damien McBride (of all people) in the Mail (of all places)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:57 AM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Corbyn is affable, yet passionate and serious of purpose. Like a woodwork teacher by day, Vampire Hunter by night." Bill Bailey on twitter
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:05 AM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Don't panic.

The Mail is also leading with "Braless Kylie Jenner displays extreme sideboob in plunging grey body as she joins boyfriend Tyga on a fun night out in NYC Likes to draw attention" and there's a story about food bank users buying drugs so there's no sort of weird reality inversion going on.
posted by Mezentian at 4:11 AM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Tyga

Thunder, thunder, thundercats!
posted by biffa at 4:20 AM on September 13, 2015


Ian Mearns MP is tweeting that over 15000 people have joined the Labour Party since the announcement of the result.

I've been flat out amazed by the number of friends and family joining up - plenty of old lefty ex-members rejoining, of course, but mostly it's 'they're all the same, what's the point?' types. Interestingly, I think all the Christians I know have signed up (which makes perfect sense, of course, but still came as a bit of a surprise).

Also, look at this lovely little Corbyn factlet revealed in the Sunday Times:
...Corbyn revealed an esoteric interest in manhole covers, but even this is rooted in his socialism. He looks at the lettering. Before nationalisation or after? Post office telegraphs or Post office telephones? To Corbyn the difference matters.
"My mother always said there's history in drain covers," he said. "I take pictures of them. People think it's odd but there we are."
posted by jack_mo at 4:56 AM on September 13, 2015 [18 favorites]


Radio 4 has been wall-to-wall establishment diaper babies throwing dummy-spitting tantrums. It is glorious. Yes, it'll probably all end badly, but right now, I am having so much fun.
posted by skybluepink at 5:38 AM on September 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


More from The Artist Taxi Driver - Jeremy Corbyn a Whole Bloody SuperNova just Burst Open. This is absolutely epic.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:12 AM on September 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Ian Mearns MP is tweeting that over 15000 people have joined the Labour Party since the announcement of the result.

Well, I've decided to go from union affiliation to full membership, and paid my extra couple of quid.

I haven't done any party political campaigning for a good 15 years, but I can't see a better use of my political energy at this point. We can't control what the media will do to try to destroy Labour, but we can try to make it irrelevant. If we can make an indicative difference in the various local elections in 2016, that will be a start.

I've detected very little sense of triumph from Corbyn supporters. More a sense of challenge and opportunity. I don't know if we can make things better, but I think a lot of people are determined to give it their best try.
posted by howfar at 8:29 AM on September 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


The Labour Party is now a threat to our national security, our economic security and your family's security.


Now I'm imagining a Monkey Dust style running joke, with Cameron saying the most innocuous things are threats to national everything.
posted by lmfsilva at 8:29 AM on September 13, 2015


Tyga

Thunder, thunder, thundercats!
Nah, just John Inverdale gearing up for the Rugby World Cup.
posted by Sonny Jim at 8:32 AM on September 13, 2015


More from The Artist Taxi Driver - Jeremy Corbyn a Whole Bloody SuperNova just Burst Open. This is absolutely epic.

*dust in my eye*

epic, indeed. supernova going off in brain.
posted by infini at 8:38 AM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


What are the legalities on Americans donating to and/or joining UK political parties, anyway?

Not that I'm sure whether Labour, the OMRLP or both would be the target.
posted by delfin at 8:41 AM on September 13, 2015


But the problem is that the Labour Party hierarchy, and particularly their parliamentary party, is still full of people who are neo-cons, Red Tories, appallingly corrupt, careerists and in several cases war criminals from Craig Murray.
posted by adamvasco at 8:49 AM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


What are the legalities on Americans donating to and/or joining UK political parties, anyway?

The Labour Party at least you have to be registered to vote in the UK to join.

OMRLP is pretty much identical to UKIP nowadays... Sutch must be spinning in his grave
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:57 AM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


chunkymark on youtube gives me hope, again, after recent years of watching the world's powers hurtling through the tracks on headlong collision - could the planet avert the train wreck of economic humanity? He deserves an introduction and his own FPP
posted by infini at 9:17 AM on September 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


I registered today as a union affiliate. Can't wait to get cracking. My local MP is pretty decent as well (Sarah Champion, Labour, Rotherham).
posted by longbaugh at 11:10 AM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


But the problem is that the Labour Party hierarchy, and particularly their parliamentary party, is still full of people who are neo-cons, Red Tories, appallingly corrupt, careerists and in several cases war criminals from Craig Murray.

As opposed to Red Labour trot careerists who publicly declare their friendship with war criminals? Look, Corbyn is refreshing and energising and a revolution in politics but there is no point in pretending he's not also problematic on several levels. The reason he's unelectable is not because he wears Crocs and socks, you know?
posted by DarlingBri at 11:51 AM on September 13, 2015


publicly declare their friendship with war criminals

Debunking by the man himself.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 12:01 PM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


The more absurd the attacks get the more I think he's bulletproof.
posted by Artw at 12:03 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


He's far too intelligent for the media's needs. But ended up making them look bad instead. This will be interesting.
posted by infini at 12:05 PM on September 13, 2015




I think maybe where people were expecting more sandwich bollocks it's going to be the SNP thing all over again. The differences are interesting, but I think are mainly down to Millibakd never having the guts to stand up to anything and the press and the public could smell weakness. Telling the press to fuck off, as the SNP did, seems to be the winning strategy.
posted by Artw at 12:13 PM on September 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Some interesting reading from Murray again on the "myth of the unelectable" from back in June.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 12:16 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Red Labour

Um. Yes. Labour is red. The party even sings the Red Flag at conference.

trot

This is nonsense. Point at one aspect of anything Corbyn has ever said or done that indicates that he is a revolutionary socialist.

careerists

'Careerist' does not mean the same thing as 'professional'

who publicly declare their friendship with war criminals?

See above.

Words mean things.
posted by howfar at 12:24 PM on September 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Saw and interesting thing on twitter that throwing open PM questions to contributed questions means the PM's team have no idea what might be coming up so have no idea how to prepare for it
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:34 PM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


People often characterise it as a failure of authenticity – why won’t politicians just say what they mean? But there’s more: blank failure to answer a straight question doesn’t make you look victorious, it makes you look slippery and dishonest. And yet, as that tactic became the norm, the delivery got more and more tendentious, so that politics evolved into a set of value-free statements, propounded with infinite self-righteousness. It’s been a process of abasement, which could only continue for as long as everybody did it. One politician answering questions as they are posed might be ceaselessly misrepresented for it, but he makes the others look absurd.
Zoe Williams in the Observer on why Corbyn's simple willingness to give a straight answer to any given question is potentially gamebreaking.
posted by Sonny Jim at 12:37 PM on September 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


When Corbyn started pointing out that there are some very uncomfortable questions for UK plc when it comes to the Syria situation

If I had the money I would move to the UK now just so I could vote for this man in a few years. His response was astounding.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:38 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also, Rhaomi, *applause*. I wonder who's going to post a cover to Music first.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:40 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


His response was astounding.

If you like that, you'll like his stance on Blair's "potential" war crimes, and his slam dunk rebuttal of the "we thought there really might have been WMDs" arguments.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 1:17 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]




The national security line irks me like no other. It absolutely incenses me, in a way I wasn't sure I could still get truly annoyed.

You know what's a threat to national security? Undermining faith in the democratic process by calling into question its legitimacy, you imbecilic Tory fools. Not agreeing with the Tory manifesto doesn't make a politician a threat, except to sickening born-to-rule presumption. Idiots. You'll destroy what you profess to be protecting with your games.
posted by Happy Dave at 1:21 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


If the Tories care so much about security, I can't wait to hear their justification for allowing UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia and other repressive regimes.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 1:35 PM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think that line will come back to bite them very quickly.


This interview with Priti Patel is very funny, and followed by a couple of labour seat warmers making fun of her being a scripted robot (a bit like this one). The Labour party as a whole need to buy into this, No Party Line, honest politican thing and relentlessly mock the tories for their strict soundbiting.

Also as a country we should band together to buy Cameron a security blanket, because he's clearly got a problem.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 1:39 PM on September 13, 2015


Good thing that Thatcher never cozied up to war criminals, or dictators to boot. Then she would have been totally unelectable.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:55 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh also, have you all seen Tom Watson's Teens pages?
I think it says a lot about him.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 1:57 PM on September 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


roffle
posted by infini at 2:16 PM on September 13, 2015


Zoe Williams in the Observer on why Corbyn's simple willingness to give a straight answer to any given question is potentially gamebreaking.

“The activist need not face off against every weed in the field, but rather, unannounced, alters the chemistry of the soil”.

Corbyn may have just altered the chemistry in the soil of Westminster quite adversely for a lot of the incumbents.
posted by acb at 4:38 PM on September 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Good thing that Thatcher never cozied up to war criminals, or dictators to boot. Then she would have been totally unelectable.

It's a bit odd to see denunciations of the Tories' proposed union-busting laws from within their own party comparing to Franco-era Spain, with the implication that that is an unambiguously bad thing, when the status of the similarly iberofascist Pinochet regime is still an unsettled matter (with the Baroness Thatcher of hallowed memory emphatically for the defence).
posted by acb at 4:40 PM on September 13, 2015


tomorrow's sun cover, apparently.
posted by andrewcooke at 6:25 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


You get that from the Sun when you literally refuse to take their calls. Heh.
posted by bonaldi at 7:06 PM on September 13, 2015


It's kind of interesting to see umabashed leftists gaining so much steam in both the UK and the USA, and here we get a frantic race to the centre from the left. Sigh.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:13 PM on September 13, 2015


Oh man, John McDonall, who swore he would swim through vomit to vote against benefit cuts, is the Shadow Chancellor. The Today programme is lively this morning!

I'm slightly surprised and kind of pleased Burnham is being a big boy and joining up as Shadow Home Secretary.
posted by skybluepink at 10:20 PM on September 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


From the New Yorker: The Corbyn Supremacy

Two interesting bits:
And then, unexpectedly, a fourth contender arose. His name was Jeremy Corbyn, and he was a last-minute candidate. That is no exaggeration. Anybody wishing to enter the contest for the leadership had to be nominated, with the support of thirty-five Labour Members of Parliament, by noon on June 15th; with hours to go before the deadline, Corbyn was still short of that figure, and it was not until 11:59 A.M., apparently, that the final nomination for him was registered.
And a test awaits:
By custom, the leader of the opposition becomes a member of the Privy Council—the small body of advisers to the Queen. When you are first sworn in as a Privy Councillor, you must observe a particular ritual: kneel on one knee, on a stool; raise a Bible in the right hand, for the lengthy intoning of the oath; stand up, walk three paces forward, and kiss the monarch’s hand; then walk backward, preferably without tripping over the stool. All of this is enough to strike terror into the privileged. So how will it affect someone who is a self-confessed republican, and an atheist to boot? Will Corbyn even go through with the ceremony? Will he skip the kiss? Will he, in a gesture of defiance, hurl the stool through a window? Will Her Majesty, who has seen everything, be amused?
posted by Rhaomi at 11:49 PM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm slightly surprised and kind of pleased Burnham is being a big boy and joining up as Shadow Home Secretary.

Yeah, I admire him for that and not spitting out his dummy and storming off (or making some pathetic calculation not be tainted by the left... not, get stuck and fight the tories here and now, not some imagined future when labour swings right again, because I think you might have a wait there)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:26 AM on September 14, 2015


If you like that, you'll like his stance on Blair's "potential" war crimes, and his slam dunk rebuttal of the "we thought there really might have been WMDs" arguments.

I like how calm he is in refuting one stream of bullshit after another from the slimy pseudo-liberals around him, whilst delivering a history lesson about NATO. Cool mindfulness and intelligence is tough combination to beat. Reminded me of Obama's unperturbed "Please proceed, governor" moment.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:29 AM on September 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Daily Mail website today leads with "Corbyn pals pledge strike chaos: Union leaders threaten walkouts and civil unrest in plot to topple Tory Government", plus a further nine articles deriding him on the front page. In the comments there are people calling for his assassination, which looks set to be the wing-nut talking point.
posted by colie at 1:30 AM on September 14, 2015




I'm slightly surprised and kind of pleased Burnham is being a big boy and joining up as Shadow Home Secretary.

I have a feeling Burnham's made the calculation that his political career is essentially over after that dismal campaign and he has no choice other than to nail his colours to Flag Corbyn (which is deepest red of course).
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:01 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


If you like that, you'll like his stance on Blair's "potential" war crimes, and his slam dunk rebuttal of the "we thought there really might have been WMDs" arguments.

Oh how cute, Liz Kendall called Labour a "progressive" party. At least it is now.
posted by Talez at 4:26 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


The level of disinformation that my work colleagues came in with this morning was epic.

"He's got no women on his cabinet"
"Actually he's 6/14 with 9 to be announced, a percentage that is higher than any other political party in history."

"He wants to abolish the Army"
"No, he wants to use diplomacy and has specifically stated that there are probable circumstances that he would use ground troops. He objects to spending 2% of GDP on the military when it could be better spent."

Just two examples from the folks around me.
posted by longbaugh at 4:45 AM on September 14, 2015 [9 favorites]


The level of disinformation that my work colleagues came in with this morning was epic.

You should hear the shit your colleagues are saying about Obama in the alternate universe where you're Americans.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:51 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


The level of disinformation that my work colleagues came in with this morning was epic.

If only we could vote the media out.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 4:57 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


I just overheard "... that's what you get when you let anyone vote for a fiver ..." and that was enough for me. Not looking forward to the avalanche of bullshit one bit.

Media blackout for the next 5 years anyone?
posted by Acey at 5:01 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


"He wants to abolish the Army"

Front page of today's Sun:

CORBYN: ABOLISH THE ARMY
New leader's potty plan for world peace
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:05 AM on September 14, 2015


15 out of 29 selected posts by my count.The first shadow cabinet ever to majority female.
And yet he is under attack from some of the leftest of people for not giving "Top Jobs" to women. It's going to be an uphill struggle.

So far as I can tell this just means that they Angela Eagle should have been Shadow Chancellor, which would never have happened. A major chunk of his popularity was on anti-austerity grounds, he was always going to being John McDonnell in that role.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:09 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Today's UK front pages... (scroll down for The Sun)_
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:10 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


I have a feeling Burnham's made the calculation that his political career is essentially over after that dismal campaign

I dunno, he might be able to rehabilitate his reputation over the next five years. Nowhere near as canny as Cooper, though: taking a minor post with a potentially high public profile, and will likely be putting forward policy in line with public opinion - nice position from which to launch her next leadership bid.

Media blackout for the next 5 years anyone?

That seems to be Corbyn's strategy at this point! Has he spoken to anyone other than Newsbeat since he was elected leader? The 'bothering' video doesn't count ;-)
posted by jack_mo at 5:19 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


"He's got no women on his cabinet"

His cabinet has just been fully announced and it's in fact majority women for the first time in the history of planet Earth. But we are of course about to enter Bizarro World where black is white and white is black. We've already had 'Corbyn is similar to Trump' as a meme.
posted by colie at 5:40 AM on September 14, 2015 [7 favorites]


Oh how cute, Liz Kendall called Labour a "progressive" party. At least it is now.

"Progressive" means something very odd to the Labour Party's right wing these days. "B52 Liberal", basically.
posted by howfar at 5:59 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm trying very hard to avoid arguing on Twitter, but there is one person I follow, (ridiculously left wing, relatively famous and who I respect tremendously) who seems absolutely furious that the "top jobs" haven't gone to women and is shouting down anyone who disagrees. It's very hard to restrain myself from arguing.
It's infuriating, because this is exactly what the Daily Mail are saying (like they've EVER cared for equality before).
We could do with people on "our side" not joining in with their games.

The first ever majority female shadow cabinet, Angela Eagle deputised for PMQ (the first ever lesbian ever to hold such high office), it's surely pretty good isn't it?
This notion of top jobs seems like a new one to me. I mean, yeah the Chancellor is pretty much a top job, but Health, Education, Defence, Chief Whip, Leader of the House of Lords, come one, they're top jobs.
Some would have argued in the past that the order of topness goes, Leader, Chancellor, Chief Whip. But no, apparently that's just a minor sinecure, despite getting to live in number 9 Downing Street.
Bah!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:00 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


There is a thing called 'Great Offices of State' in the UK and it goes Leader, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary, in that order. Hardly any of them have ever been women before, and I don't think there has even been a female Shadow Chancellor. But that's what the papers have detected as the tiniest crack to get into for an attack.
posted by colie at 6:14 AM on September 14, 2015


To be fair, at the time I was arguing the case with my LICs (Low-Information Colleagues) the full cabinet line up had not been announced. That's an amazing thing to have done and yet another reason I am proud to be a Corbynista*.


*now a thing.

Next up, watching hours of footage of Our Jez so that when he's quoted out of context I can provide the context to my LICs and show that actually, he's really quite good isn't he?

I watched four hours of his stuff last night and he's fucking awesome. Like every politician I ever wanted to vote for. I'll be doing my best to grin and bear it as I hear his positions misrepresented and I'll try not to bite as I explain the nuanced positions to people used only to repetitive soundbites of black and white.
posted by longbaugh at 6:20 AM on September 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


Ah thank you colie, I've been trying to look up the source of this "top jobs" nonsense.

Only 4 women have ever held the Great Offices of State according to wikipedia, Thatcher and May from the Conservatives and Margaret Becket and Jacqui Smith from Labour.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:22 AM on September 14, 2015


Amazing interview with Dennis Skinner... watch it right to the end!
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:51 AM on September 14, 2015 [11 favorites]


I am loving this :)

I've been talking to people all day about Corbyn and his policies and doing my utmost to clear the FUD being tossed out in the media. It is *very* early days but it really seems like we will see a reaction against the poisoning of our public discourse.

This makes me immensely happy. Folks from the US? It *can* be done.
posted by longbaugh at 7:10 AM on September 14, 2015


But Kate has new hair!
posted by Artw at 7:23 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


This makes me immensely happy. Folks from the US? It *can* be done.

*looks at Australia*
posted by acb at 7:24 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Apparently the BBC had to chase after Skinner to get their microphone back...
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:24 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


I've been talking to people all day about Corbyn and his policies and doing my utmost to clear the FUD being tossed out in the media.

Don't count on making much headway in that Augean stable. Here in Scotland we have very popular sites like Wings which spend their whole time addressing the smaller but still stinky pool of media FUD that exists here. In July the BBC's own data showed that just 48% of Scots (as opposed to 61% of English) trusted the broadcaster, for example. Media FUD (and silence) can kill stories and reputations only so much these days. Beyond that point it is the mainstream media who suffer for their tactics.
posted by rongorongo at 7:28 AM on September 14, 2015


My new Facebook strategy is to just drop the fact in an relatively innocuous way. So...

"A shadow cabinet composed mostly of women. That's a good thing."

My hope is that we can use social media just to clarify reality, rather than get into ideological battles.
posted by howfar at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


There is a thing called 'Great Offices of State' in the UK and it goes Leader, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary, in that order.
As McDonnel pointed out - rightly, I think, even if he was covering his arse - they might be the 'great offices' historically, but from a left wing perspective, Health and Education are just as great.
posted by jack_mo at 8:13 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Amazing interview with Dennis Skinner... watch it right to the end!

recall the platform labour and attlee won on (which is a remarkable document to me ;)

i'm guessing he reaches out to the SNP's extended hand of friendship?

also btw, fwiw, i'm reading paul mason's postcapitalism -- endorsed by russell brand :P -- and he has a nice, pretty succinct description of neoliberalism:
Neoliberalism was designed and implemented by visionary politicians: Pinochet in Chile; Thatcher and her ultra-conservative circle in Britain; Reagan and the Cold Warriors who brought him to power. They'd faced massive resistance from organized labour and they'd had enough. In response, these pioneers of neoliberalism drew a conclusion that shaped our age: that a modern economy cannot coexist with an organized working class. Consequently, they resolved to smash labour's collective bargaining power, traditions, and social cohesion completely... Neoliberalism's guiding principle is not free markets, nor fiscal discipline, nor sound money, nor privatization and offshoring – not even globalization. All these things were byproducts or weapons of its main endeavour: to remove organized labour from the equation.
as for corbynomics and a people's QE, chris dillow gives it a meh (it's surprisingly, uh, lawrence summers-esque) but the debate is worth having: "If Jeremy Corbyn becomes leader of the UK Labour Party, one positive consequence will be the ensuing discussion of the monetary policy transmission mechanism."
Our preferred approach would be direct deposits into household accounts offered at the central bank. It's simple and doesn't require any political debate about how best to spend the newly created money.

But Corbyn's plan to have the Bank of England fund government-directed investment in infrastructure could also work, especially if the pace of investment were adjusted according to the condition of the economy. In fact, Adam Posen supported something similar when he was on the Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England, except that he focused on small businesses.
cheers!
posted by kliuless at 8:16 AM on September 14, 2015 [5 favorites]


"But Kate has new hair!"

Princess Di is wearing a new dress... ;)
posted by longbaugh at 8:29 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


We're gettin' the band back together!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 2:49 PM on September 14, 2015


The BBC clip with Dennis Skinner is awesome.
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:42 PM on September 14, 2015


I desperately want to be buoyed, but then something like this comes out and I'm reminded that I live in a country where the ruling party can not only release that without a shred of irony, but that it would be taken completely seriously be a large proportion of the populus.
posted by lucidium at 6:37 PM on September 14, 2015


The implications of Corbyn's Prime Ministerial reign of terror for the Premier League.
posted by biffa at 4:19 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Paul Mason asks What wil Corbynomics look like?: '...it’s not far off what generations of orthodox Keynesian economists have wanted to do to the British state, including senior old-school Lib Dems.'

John McDonnell talks to Jon Snow and - surprise! - seems rather reasonable, not at all like a deranged IRA-licking communist.

Does Jeremy Corbyn Have a Media Strategy? Apparently Not. - Roy Greenslade points out that Corbyn is now being handled by Labour, not by Carmel Nolan, who ran comms during his campaign. (Though it's not like Nolan got the press onside...)
posted by jack_mo at 5:31 AM on September 15, 2015


Ben Norton: Identitarians Say Elect People ‘Regardless of Their Policies,’ Exposing Inherent Conservatism of Identity Politics
Invoking the specter of “brocialism”—that poorly defined, bloody piece of meat red-baiting bourgeois feminists sling at socialist feminists—Moore said the “new brocialism cares deeply about women’s issues of course—just not enough to elect an actual woman.”

Corbyn is certainly a man—and certainly a white one, at that. But is Moore’s claim true? Was “not one female voice heard”?

A bit of research indicates that not only were women’s voices heard, they were in fact the loudest voices in support of Jeremy Corbyn.

Socialist feminist journalist and writer Elizabeth Bruenig pointed out that, according to an August poll, 61% of women said they planned on voting for Corbyn. In contrast, just 4% of women (versus 11% of men) planned on voting for Liz Kendall, a female Labour politician who happens to be on the right-wing of the party. The other woman running for Labour leadership, Yvette Cooper, a centrist, associated Corbyn with “extremism.” Just 19% of women said they would vote for her—less than one-third of those who said they would back Corbyn.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 5:36 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


I desperately want to be buoyed, but then something like this yt comes out and I'm reminded that I live in a country where the ruling party can not only release that without a shred of irony, but that it would be taken completely seriously be a large proportion of the populus.

Now unavailable due to a copyright complaint. Cassetteboy's piss-take of the attack ad is still up, and so they have tweeted some advice for the Tories:
.@Conservatives ProTip - admit you took Corbyn's words out of context & the copyright infringement won't matter as it will count as a parody
posted by jack_mo at 5:36 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


Chief Whip is a party post, but it usually comes along with a cabinet post as well (Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury according to Wikipedia) which is what brings the house (offices really these days) on Downing St.

Buried on the Guardian website is this article: Angela Eagle's extra title due to Labour 'women row' which sheds a little extra light.

It’s pretty clear that the Corbynites made a bunch of post announcements, and then realised they’d ended up a) appointing men to all the posts with actual power (except the Chief Whip if you count that: the Chief Whip effectively inherits their power from the PM directly, so much depends on their relationship - it’s very much a behind the scenes role) and then b) followed that up by listing a bunch of women appointed to a list of stereotypical 'caring' posts: Health, Mental Health, Education etc etc. So they rowed back desperately after the fact by tacking on some extra titles to Angela Eagle & going on about “50% of the cabinet is women!” when Ed Milliband’s cabinet was already 45% women & all they’d really done was promote a few minor appointments to notional 'cabinet' level in order to make up the numbers.

Power is taken, not given & a more effective demonstration that in the Corbyn cabinet, men hold the power by default you could not have asked for: Slow clap.

The outraged denials by the left that there was any kind of problem at all with any of this was fairly entertaining I suppose.
posted by pharm at 6:11 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


(Watching the right-wing press desperately trying to smear Corbyn is also a good source of entertainment: I particularly liked The Times’ description of Corbyn as riding a “Chairman Mao-style bicycle”. Otherwise known to the rest of us as, “a bicycle” I suspect.)
posted by pharm at 6:19 AM on September 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


Chief Whip is a party post, but it usually comes along with a cabinet post as well (Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury according to Wikipedia) which is what brings the house (offices really these days) on Downing St.

On the opposition side of things, the opposition chief whip and their assistant as well as the leader of the opposition are the only MPs outside government who get extra salary. An extra 41k for the opposition chief whip and 26k for the assistant.
posted by biffa at 6:41 AM on September 15, 2015


Ooh, I'm looking forward to tomorrow's front pages: Corbyn didn't sing the National Anthem at today's Battle of Britain service. Quite why anyone found this surprising, I don't know.

I particularly liked The Times’ description of Corbyn as riding a “Chairman Mao-style bicycle”. Otherwise known to the rest of us as, “a bicycle” I suspect.

Extra amusing, since the right wing press wank themselves silly every time Johnson or Cameron hop on a bike, presenting it as proof positive that they're 'men of the people'.
posted by jack_mo at 7:27 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


Identitarians Say Elect People ‘Regardless of Their Policies,’ Exposing Inherent Conservatism of Identity Politics

Can it still be a straw-man if he's got actual examples of people saying that? I sort of refuse to believe the articles pictured were written by actual humans.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 7:48 AM on September 15, 2015


Further investigation reveals that Jeremy Corbyn rides a Trek. Clearly therefore The Times ought to believe him to be a willing lackey of capitalist oppression.
posted by pharm at 8:05 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Chairman Mao, on the other hand, rode a pirated Moulton from Wiltshire. (supposedly)
posted by rongorongo at 9:49 AM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Corbyn didn't sing the National Anthem

I mean really, media people, he's just following the lead of football players at all our international games.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 2:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


At least he didn't pretend to sing the national anthem.
posted by popcassady at 2:55 PM on September 15, 2015


Bernie Sanders rejects 'vicious' attack over his support for UK Labour leader.
Democratic presidential candidate accuses Super Pac associated with Hillary Clinton of crude slur after it reportedly criticised his support for Jeremy Corbyn.
posted by adamvasco at 5:13 PM on September 15, 2015


Mr Corbyn used his appearance at the TUC conference in Brighton to announce that Labour would now oppose the Conservatives’ benefit cap and fight Tory “poverty deniers” across the country. But the event was undermined when he was pictured failing to sing the national anthem at a service to mark the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Britain.

The right-wing media seized on his silence and compared it to his participation in singing “The Red Flag” after his election on Saturday. He also appeared to have walked off with two donated packed lunches provided for veterans attending the event.
This shit is exactly like the flag pin and "he didn't put his hand over his heart!" attacks leveled at Barack Obama early in his candidacy.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:54 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Eh. I don't think anyone ever suggested that Obama would refuse to sing the National Anthem as a point of principle.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:58 PM on September 15, 2015


Eh. I don't think anyone ever suggested that Obama would refuse to sing the National Anthem as a point of principle.

Well, the U.S. anthem isn't all about the Queen.

Why anyone is surprised a self-avowed republican (in the UK sense) wouldn't sing 'God Save The Queen' is beyond me.

Oh no, wait, its not beyond me, it's just another boring, content-less, irrelevant smear.
posted by Happy Dave at 10:55 PM on September 15, 2015 [6 favorites]


I presume he swore allegiance to the Queen in order to take his seat, and that he aspires to be her Prime Minister. Refusing to sing the anthem is comparatively petty, and childish. Furthermore, it was churlish behavior: it made the story about him rather than the aircrew who defended Britain. I suppose next time they'll know better than to invite him.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:57 PM on September 15, 2015


It's petty, childish and churlish to adhere to personal principles?
posted by Happy Dave at 12:47 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


I think it's petty, childish and stupid to insist that all public figures mindlessly mouth platitudes and pay lip service to respect, while doing the opposite of respect in their actual governing.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:50 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


My God, of course a lifelong socialist didn't sing the pathetic dirge worshipping the blood-soaked British Empire! Sometimes it feels like the 60s never happened!
posted by colie at 1:07 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


And to pretend that the current right-wing blaring about this is anything else than the press and Tory party screaming CONFORM AND BE HARMLESS LIKE THE OTHER LABOUR LEADERS is disingenuous. Not a one of the people writing or speaking about this gives two shits about the airmen who fought in the Battle of Britain, they just want to paint Corbyn in as negative a light as possible so they're seizing on weak sauce like this. You know it and I know it.

This isn't about respect . Those airmen died to allow people the freedom to not pay lip service to glorious leaders, whether monarchs or autocrats of the uniformed flavour.
posted by Happy Dave at 1:34 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


When I was in the scouts I was told the way to show respect to the national anthem at formal occations was to stand quietly at attention not bellow it out like you're at a footie match
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:50 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


it made the story about him rather than the aircrew who defended Britain.

No, the NEWSPAPERS made the story about him.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:09 AM on September 16, 2015 [6 favorites]




Everyone furious as agnostic republican doesn't sing song about God rescuing a monarch.

People across the country were left confused and frightened today after a man who isn’t a massive fan of the queen didn’t sing a song about how terrific she is.
posted by Happy Dave at 2:13 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


"I presume he swore allegiance to the Queen in order to take his seat..."

Tony Benn didn't swear so I wouldn't presume too hard.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:14 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]




On reread: actually, Benn did swear, but with a preface. In fact it appears you can't be an MP at all without swearing, constitutionally. Whereas you can be an MP and not sing the anthem.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:17 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]




Perhaps he crossed his fingers like Tony Banks did when he was sworn in
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:37 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Or like Corbyn's press office did, when they explained why he wasn't appointing women to senior positions:
Corbyn Reveals Full Shadow Cabinet Line-Up
The statement issued in response to concerns over gender balance in the shadow cabinet said: "For Labour our proudest achievement is the creation of NHS.

"We are the party that delivered comprehensive education.

"We are the party that founded the open university, and that established and will defend the trade union and employment rights.

"The so-called 'great offices of state; as defined in the 19th Century reflect and era before women or workers even had the vote, and before Labour had radically changed the state."

Previously, Mr Corbyn had been pressed repeatedly by Sky News about why none of the key posts had gone to women but he did not respond.
And here's a video of him not responding. Look at those lips!
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:44 AM on September 16, 2015


What can happen when you talk to the British media..

video of media spin... and rebuttal
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:15 AM on September 16, 2015


Prime Minister's Questions in progress!
posted by skybluepink at 4:12 AM on September 16, 2015


I'm only reading the live blog but I get the impression that Corbyn's decision to take questions from the public has put Cameron on the defensive. He can hardly slag off the public with the enthusiasm he usually levels at the opposition. Interesting move.
posted by Acey at 4:21 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


PMQ's pretty interesting in it's matureness and civility. Could do with some forensic follow up questions to pick apart Cameron's bullshit though.
posted by brilliantmistake at 4:34 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Disappointingly it seems like Corbyn will sing that disrespectful dirge in the future.

It's absolute bullshit to suggest that not singing it is disrespectful to veterans. What about the atheist (and non christian) veterans? What about the rebellious scots?
Bah.

Anyway, PMQ was fun, no doubt Tories will maintain that Cameron gave a strong commanding performance whilst Labour supporters will claim he was wrong footed and floundering, in the usual partisan talking heads way.
It seemed more civil and more informative than usual though. The Milliband /Cameron PMQs ended up being a bit farcical with them jumping up and down to snipe at each other. This way it looks like Corbyn wants to get on and do government work (and casts him as the voice of the people) although I agree that a bit more follow up would be nice.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:54 AM on September 16, 2015




Tweet from Mhairi Black (21 year old SNP MP):
Tories sniggering every time Corbyn mentions a member of the public's name. At least they are real people, unlike those the DWP made up.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:00 AM on September 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


Cameron immediately forced onto the back foot at PMQs by Corbyn re-framing the entire debate. The usual sycophants made to look a bit silly.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 5:02 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


I am a bit at odds about Corbyn not singing the anthem. On the one hand, I get it how people felt it was disrespectful - it was a ceremony honoring the sacrifices people have made in the name of nationalism and by not singing the national anthem I could see how it could feel disrespectful. And showing respect is how how you make others feel, not about how you feel. Haven't we had a ton of MetaTalk threads about this sort of thing before where we ask people to refrain from using certain phrases that offend people? I feel like this is similar. Just sing the damn song.

On the other hand, the guy's got principles and he sticks to them and it's a stupid song. I'm more offended he didn't put on a nice suit that actually fits him.
posted by like_neon at 5:26 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


The bleating from very serious people about Corbyn not singing the national anthem on the R4 news today has been particularly obtuse. Still, expect the right to bang on and on about this peripheral stuff because they think it will resonate with their base.
posted by pharm at 5:38 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


certain phrases that offend people

The song is offensive from start to finish, and has nothing to do with respecting anyone's life that was lost in a war, civilian or conscript or otherwise. The fetishisation of it is an obvious instance of ideological control by the state, like the flag in the USA.
posted by colie at 5:39 AM on September 16, 2015 [5 favorites]


I defo think Corbyn could've done more in terms of follow-up questioning, but it was a damn sight more useful/interesting to watch than the usual pissing contest. And every time Corbyn appears moderate, mild mannered and reasonable, the less people will buy the right wing press line (I'm an optimist!). Not at all bad for a first go.

He can hardly slag off the public with the enthusiasm he usually levels at the opposition.

Good point - it really does force everyone to talk about policy.

I think Cameron is probably quite happy with the 'new PMQs', though. He was never very good under the old shouty format - this time he got to put his case without all the froth, and got to admonish Labour MPs for naughty 'old PMQs' behaviour.

Oh, and I cannot fucking believe that the first Tory question was about a tiger in a zoo.
posted by jack_mo at 5:42 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


They should have stuck with denouncing it as tittle tattle.

I would bet hard cashy money on the fact that 99.9% of these people talking about it being offensive are not offended. They're playing stupid political games with made up opinions.
It's like Obama's Latte Salute (or whatever it was) all over again. Fake outrage and noise!

There are probably more people who the song genuinely offends than are genuinely offended by it not being sung at this event.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:43 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


The tiger and mating rhino bit was great tho. Can't stand these Tories but I can't help feeling Cameron would be good to have a beer with. I used to feel the same about George W Bush. Corbyn doesn't drink.
posted by colie at 5:45 AM on September 16, 2015


On the other hand, the guy's got principles and he sticks to them and it's a stupid song

Er, he's said he'll sing it in future. (Well, he sort of did and didn't, then Labour clarified that he will.)

I'm disappointed by this, but it's probably not worth the hassle to make a point of not-singing.
posted by jack_mo at 5:45 AM on September 16, 2015


Cameron would be good to have a beer with

What's your net worth? I'm terribly sorry, he only drinks with millionaires unless there's a camera crew present.
posted by Acey at 6:23 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Robert Peston on the possibility of New Labour MPs crossing the floor if Corbyn endures.
posted by brilliantmistake at 7:39 AM on September 16, 2015


BBC economics editor Robert Peston on the chatter in the corridors about the possibility of several New Labour Blairite MPs defecting to the Tories
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:42 AM on September 16, 2015


Sam Kriss in Vice: Jeremy Corbyn's First Ever PMQs Was a Grim, Strange Spectacle
With his selective statistics, Cameron seems to be living in a very different world to the real one, where people are actually suffering, but like all fantasy worlds, it has a lot more coherence than reality.

But Corbyn never presses him on any of this: he asks a question, Cameron smugly disgorges a little glob of distortions and half-truths, and then Corbyn asks another. It's all very admirably restrained and serious, even statesmanlike, but it's not really doing anything. Is he really trying to convince the Tories to do more about housing and mental health, as if their assaults on these services were an unexpected cockup rather than the fruition of an ideological agenda?

A mature, sensible PMQs is a fine idea, but it misses the point of what PMQs – and Parliament itself – are really about. As a good Marxist, Corbyn should know that the organs of our representative democracy are really just a vast sideshow to the real exercise of political power, which comes from our financial overlords, and, sometimes, an empowered working class. It's just a vehicle for propaganda, and treating it as anything else doesn't do anyone any favours. There's no point trying to make PMQs into less of a circus: however you arrange the props, however seriously you talk to the audience, it's all still taking place in a big stripy tent, and the caged elephants are still shitting all over the sawdust.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:44 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


If the Blairites do defect, I'll respect them for being honest about their beliefs while simultaneously cursing them for the pass they brought Labour to in the first place.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:53 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Didn't Thatcher say her greatest achievement was New Labour? Perhaps the time has come to undo some of that legacy.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:08 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Cameron would be good to have a beer with

I never understood this metric for personality politics. I disagree on this point anyway, why would I want to have a drink with a principle free salesman?

My metric for the personality of a politician is the question, would I buy a second hand car from them? The answer, for around 80% of politicians of all stripes, is no. I can't trust them to tell the truth.
posted by asok at 8:09 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


What is the cross over between people who give a shit about someone singing the national anthem and people who would vote for the Labour party lead by Corbyn?
posted by asok at 8:12 AM on September 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


BBC economics editor Robert Peston on the chatter in the corridors about the possibility of several New Labour Blairite MPs defecting to the Tories

Turns out they were Tories all along! Gasp!
posted by Artw at 8:18 AM on September 16, 2015 [8 favorites]


In a world where There Is No Alternative, all MPs are Tories.
posted by acb at 8:37 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I wonder who these Blairite whingers who love George Osbourne are? Because if they're in razor-thin margin seats that could tip Tory, I totally believe they mean it. If, however, they're anything like my own right-wing Labour MP, they'd need to have an electoral death wish, because they'd get booted at the first possible opportunity. (Blood-red Merseyside constituency here.)
posted by skybluepink at 8:50 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I imagine a game plan of defecting to get a ministerial job then leaving the commons and decamping to the lords just before the next election (My old Tory MP did this, crossing the floor to join Labour under Blair)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:01 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh yes, that sounds completely plausible.
posted by skybluepink at 9:11 AM on September 16, 2015


Here is a list of Labour MPs and who they nominated for the part leadership. I assume we are talking about Kendall's supporters being the likeliest to go across the floor. Have a look at who nominated her and where they represent. Stoke, Rochdale, Stockport, Lewisham, Bury, Sunderland, Darlington...Liverpool Riverside FFS, that's Toxteth! Labour have a majority of 55% there, I could literally shit in my hand and put a red rosette on it and it would beat the sitting MP if she crossed the floor. They're only going to walk if it means getting parachuted into a safe Tory seat in the next election, how many of them are going spare?

It does make you question how some of these MPs thought Kendall was the best bet for the people they represent.
posted by biffa at 10:00 AM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


My own MP actually nominated Corbyn, on the grounds that "we need to widen the debate." In other words, he didn't think Corbyn had a chance. Hahahahahaha. We're in one of the safest imaginable Labour seats, so defecting would have to be a career move, ultimately, out of the Commons altogether. And he's getting on in years, so who knows, but no fucking way would the Tories hold this seat any longer than the rest of this parliament.
posted by skybluepink at 10:25 AM on September 16, 2015


Basically every single MP is sulking because Corbyn stole their ball and they can't play with it for a while.

I do wonder what the game plan really is for him, since he is enough of a socialist to know there's no parliamentary road. Bringing down the government after a bunch of Europe and Scotland constitutional crises could be the best he can hope for.
posted by colie at 10:48 AM on September 16, 2015


Liverpool Riverside FFS, that's Toxteth!

*waves*

I've been here for ten years now and I haven't been able to stomach voting labour in that time (not that they needed my vote).

I doubt I'll ever have my faith restored, but I want to believe. I'm comfortable enough to watch it unfold with some detachment, but sadly many people in this city are already at breaking point. I'm not sure they can take 5 more years of Tory government. I'm hoping JC can pull off a spiritual awakening in the party, but I'm not holding my breath.
posted by Acey at 11:12 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Enjoyed the Channel 4 interview this evening. Refreshingly soundbite free.
posted by brilliantmistake at 12:45 PM on September 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Unfortunately, he is actually a bit like Lenin. Zero sex appeal and can't whip up even an adoring home crowd. Trotsky had all the moves in that respect.
posted by colie at 1:55 PM on September 16, 2015


I confess that sometimes I've been a bit negative about the new Labour leader, and to balance this I'll link to something positive: No, Jeremy Corbyn didn't steal sandwiches from a veterans' memorial service

There is good in the man after all.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:36 PM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


So I get the anthem thing. And I am opposite to Corbyn on the whole monarchist question, so please feel free to take what I am about to say with a grain of salt:

The national anthem of any country speaks in two major ways, I think (subdivided by various reactions to those things, of course! And my own country's anthem needs a serious fucking update, so no high-horsing here):

1) The words and what they say literally and the emotions they engender;

2) The ideas (good or bad from one's own POV) that are tied to what one believes My Country Is.

So for me, I have a great deal of difficulty understanding people--especially people who have publicly devoted themselves to serving the country--who won't sing their national anth

em (side crap about wearing pins or whatever is meaningless), because that anthem can also be for them a recitation of everything that needs to change (see again: Canada's). And, for me, the point of a national anthem is that it is a thing that unites while allowing everyone to project what is meaningful to them.

I guess a national anthem is a secular version of prayer. The respectful thing to do when one believes differently is to be silent and follow the movements, and I don't think that either works or is appropriate in politics. When one pledges themselves to serve the country, I think one also signs oneself up to be performative about popular conceptions about national identity. An anthem, being in most countries one of the few things that defines national identity in law, seems to me to be above petty partisan crap.

(Also I really think that #2 is way more important, and with national anthems it's much more effective long term to change a bit to catch up to more inclusive language to reflect more inclusive ideas)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:30 PM on September 16, 2015


The national anthem of any country speaks in two major ways, I think
Lots ots of countries have fucked up national anthems I think that the one we sing here in Great Britain is a particularly egregious case. Corbyn appears to be the sort of person who pays attention to the underlying meaning of words which might otherwise be uttered as soundbytes. Here is a potential list of concerns with line 1:
God:- Well obviously we are discounting atheists from the get go - about 40% of the UK.
save: - in what sense - and what from exactly? The remaining text does not provide clarification in this draft. Moreover, if we are assuming that we really do have the ear of an all powerful, and rather busy, monotheistic deity then is the salvation of a feisty and prodigiously wealthy late octogenarian really item #1 on our wish list? Shouldn't the NHS be first?
our: - need to be more specific about stakeholders since they represent a non-homogenous group with interests that are likely to diverge on the operational meaning of "save". She is the monarch of 15 states, head of the commonwealth and governor of the Church of England. And that's before we get into issues of individual national sovereignty or of the representation of people who consider themselves republicans, those who don't like singing. And people with lock-jaw.
gracious: - graciousish.
queen: - clearly a over-gendered term.
posted by rongorongo at 2:05 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Although when there's a king, it's God Save the King, so.

It's really not relevant. It's not about the song. In fact, The Sun attacked Corbyn for not singing the song through the medium of parodying the words of the song. Tomorrow they'll find something else, the next day something else and on the days there isn't anything obvious to attack him on, they'll make something up. It's a propaganda machine, that's what they do.

I'm old enough to remember the campaign against Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock in the 1980s and they can carry on like this ad infinitum. The BBC's job is to refer to Corbyn as an extremist, and the right as moderates, which they've been doing right on cue. I like the petition going round demanding that the BBC, in the name of balance, refer to Cameron as "right wing Prime Minister David Cameron", but that's not how "balance" works.

I think it would be good to be able to use the ongoing propaganda war to point out how the media lies to you, and wonder what else they might be lying to you about, but if you have any emotional response to their lies you have a distressing few years ahead.
posted by Grangousier at 2:33 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Is Cameron to the right of his own parliamentary party, though? Because people are speculating whether Corbyn is so far removed from the rest of Labour that he's going to end up splitting the party.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:47 AM on September 17, 2015


Because people are speculating whether Corbyn is so far removed from the rest of Labour that he's going to end up splitting the party.

Corbyn is a bog-standard democratic socialist. It's the party that's lurched right in the last twenty years, not him lurching left.

I guess a national anthem is a secular version of prayer. The respectful thing to do when one believes differently is to be silent and follow the movements, and I don't think that either works or is appropriate in politics.

Bear in mind that God Save the Queen/King is only the de-facto UK national anthem. There's nothing in law or even in Royal proclamations that makes it so, it's just been around for ages. When you add in problematic colonialist lyrics, oft-omitted verses about crushing Rebellious Scots and the fact that the other three countries in the unitary state that is the UK have their own de-facto national anthems for sporting occasions, it's not nearly the grand, uniting thing that the press has suddenly started saying it is.

In Scotland, for example, about the only places you'll hear God Save the Queen being sung are military barracks, rugby stadiums when we play England (immediately followed by Flower of Scotland), Balmoral and Holyrood when Her Madge is in residence and occasionally Ibrox for complex sectarian reasons.

The whole thing is so obviously a smear and an early attempt at tarring his whole leadership with 'dangerous traitor bad man not like us' that it's laughable.
posted by Happy Dave at 3:04 AM on September 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


Yeah, the anthem bollocks was yesterday's manufactured Corbyn outrage. Then we swung into the usual suspects whinging because Corbyn didn't do the snarky soundbite thing at PMQ. We'll be onto something else soon, with frequent reprises of the things they think have traction. The press is broken and disgusting and totally in the pockets of the interests they represent, which isn't the people on whose behalf Corbyn was asking questions yesterday.

And the fact that he was overwhelmingly elected leader doesn't suggest to me he's the one out of step with the Labour party. Rather, it suggests the Blairites are.
posted by skybluepink at 3:24 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


And the fact that he was overwhelmingly elected leader doesn't suggest to me he's the one out of step with the Labour party. Rather, it suggests the Blairites are.

Quite - although I might say that the Parliamentary Labour Party is dangerously out of step with its own party membership. Corbyn might manage to bring them back leftward while only losing a few Labour-in-name-only Blair/Brown people, but he'll have a job. Nearly thirty years of There Is No Alternative has done a number on the PLP's sense of itself and of what a government can, should or is able to do and stay in power.
posted by Happy Dave at 3:27 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'll be meeting Tom Watson next week as he tours around the country. If anything has anything they want asked let me know :)
posted by longbaugh at 3:46 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'd be interested to know if he read this thread...
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:55 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ask him if he can put in a word with the mods about the attraction of draft mode.
posted by rongorongo at 4:47 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


And this thread that's specifically about him!
posted by like_neon at 8:20 AM on September 17, 2015


The forces of darkness ride south.
posted by rongorongo at 8:41 AM on September 17, 2015


I thought this article was well worth reading. And Mefis 'Own gets a shoutout, too: When will Labour move against Corbyn?
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:10 PM on September 17, 2015


What a terrible, terrible article that was.
posted by longbaugh at 11:10 PM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Tory article is Tory
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:37 AM on September 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


(I had a glance at the comments and they are particularly wingnut even for The Spectator)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:38 AM on September 18, 2015


I like to think (to hope, to dream!) that one of the fallouts from all this will be that more people start realising that the media is a bunch of lying distorting monsters.

A lot of people have said (after PMQ) that they'd heard Corbyn was a monstrous stalinesque figure and then he's all calm and reasonable in PMQ and his John Snow interview.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:20 AM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yes, the right-wing press histrionics about a mild-mannered chap in a cardigan are somewhat self-defeating.
posted by Happy Dave at 3:33 AM on September 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


It might be working...

Corbyn snubs the rugby!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:14 PM on September 18, 2015


I think it would be good to be able to use the ongoing propaganda war to point out how the media lies to you, and wonder what else they might be lying to you about
I have a feeling that is Watson's long game.
You can't defeat the right-wing controlled media but you can make them less relevant.
posted by fullerine at 6:04 AM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'd like to hear something substantive about why Corbyn isn't tainted by his associations. I mean, surely there would be well-justified criticism if it turned out that a Conservative politician had invited, e.g., David Irving to tea at Parliament.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:50 AM on September 19, 2015


Here you go Joe, and in case his talking with Hamas bothers you, the Israeli government does as well.
posted by adamvasco at 10:35 AM on September 19, 2015 [2 favorites]


The main thing against Corbyn now seems to be that he attended demos at which some guys were holding anti Semitic banners. Just pathetic smearing that even the corporate hacks can't really get behind.
posted by colie at 12:14 PM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean, surely there would be well-justified criticism if it turned out that a Conservative politician had invited, e.g., David Irving to tea at Parliament.

But would you be so insistent on talking about that criticism if that Conservative politician were a supporter of Israeli policy?
posted by howfar at 2:15 PM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


The main thing against Corbyn now seems to be that he attended demos at which some guys were holding anti Semitic banners. Just pathetic smearing that even the corporate hacks can't really get behind.

Yeah, like that thing when Trump didn't stop that guy who ranted against muslims at one of his rallys. Nobody claims that he's in any way responsible for what his supporters say when he's around. Oh, wait, that's exactly what everyone does.
posted by effbot at 3:22 PM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Where was this Corbyn rally to which some supporters brought anti-Semitic banners and were not stopped by the organisers?
posted by acb at 3:40 PM on September 19, 2015


It seems to have been the al-Quds Day rally in 2012. Al-Quds Day is an event sponsored by Iran, which is also the sponsor of Hezbollah. You can see a bit of the banner carrying a message from the Ayatollah Khomeini, Supreme Leader of Iran, behind Corbyn's shoulder. So it's not some incidental guy happening to walk in front of the camera; it's basically the entire rally. Here's a video of Corbyn's address to the rally.

The list of speakers at the rally is quite interesting, incidentally. Corbyn has been criticised for supporting the antisemitic clergyman Stephen Sizer, and lo! Sizer is one of the speakers. Corbyn is a Patron of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, and Mick Napier (its chair) spoke at that rally - calling for the destruction of Israel, incidentally. Corbyn is a patron (and former chair I think) of the Stop the War Coalition, and its National Officer, John Rees, also spoke at the rally - and also called for the destruction of Israel, naturally. So these criticisms of Corbyn aren't about incidental encounters; they're to do with people whom he associates with, or whose organisations he supports, or with whom he has shared platforms.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:34 PM on September 19, 2015 [1 favorite]


Corbyn simply stands with Palestine against the occupation. All this anti-semitic stuff is bullshit and you know it.
posted by colie at 2:37 AM on September 20, 2015 [8 favorites]




We're talking about a guy that has worked for Iran's Press TV channel (along with Galloway). His shows are pretty funny, in a "how the fuck can anyone take this man seriously" way -- a recurring feature is when someone calling into the show starts ranting about how America controls all countries, and Corbyn politely reminds him that it's actually both the US and Israel that's an issue.

But if you'd rather not waste time on utter stupidity, just listen to the interviews with Corbyn when he's confronted with shit like this, and note how there's always a "but this other thing" in the replies -- "the holocaust was bad, but what about these 100 people killed by zionists" "the invasion of ukraine was bad, not that crimea actually belonged to ukraine, but what about drone wars in pakistan and the iraq invasion" "they say he's guilty of blood libel, but Israel let the guy travel and he never said anything that sounded anti-semitic to me." That, or he just doesn't remember, like when he was hanging out with that "europe loves aids-spreading faggots" guy.

Either the guy is a complete idiot, or he doesn't really care because dropping this would risk the support from the big chunk of anti-Israel leftists for which the boundaries beween Israel, Zionists, and Jews are rather fuzzy (don't think they exist? check the comments to any article that criticizes Corbyn on these topics). And he's not as noisy as Galloway anyway. So a good guess is "not anti-semite, but #1 with leftwing anti-semites."

(and to Joe, of course he's tainted by this, and not just in the center and to the right; lots of people on the British left agrees with that.)
posted by effbot at 3:33 AM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


calling for the destruction of Israel

Just in case anyone else was wondering about this: here's John Rees' position on Israel and Palestine.

Corbyn's position is different, putting it mildly.

(I didn't bother searching for a statement from Napier - I wouldn't be surprised if he calls for the destruction of Israel ten times a day while dancing a racist jig to a Gilad Atzmon sax solo - but it may be worth pointing out that he's not a member of the PSC, let alone the chair.)

Here's a video yt of Corbyn's address to the rally.

Which is a perfectly reasonable expression of solidarity with oppressed Palestinian people, and not in any way a call for the destruction of Israel.

The idea that sharing a platform with someone is the same as agreeing with or endorsing their views is ridiculous. Nobody accuses Cameron of secretly wanting to execute gay people because he's chummy with the Saudi royals, because we know from his words and actions that he isn't a homophobe.

just listen to the interviews with Corbyn when he's confronted with shit like this

Okay then:
"My views are that the Holocaust was the most disgraceful and vile process of the history of the 20th century, if not the wider world and that has to be understood by successive generations and it has to be understood by all our children in schools,” he said. “That surely is important.
"The idea that I'm some kind of racist or anti-semitic person is beyond appalling, disgusting and deeply offensive. I have spent my life opposing racism. Until my dying day I will be opposed to racism in any form."
posted by jack_mo at 4:13 AM on September 20, 2015 [5 favorites]


Corbyn may very well say that he's spent his life opposing racism, but there he is, up on a platform with Mick Napier, Stephen Sizer, and John Rees. Mick Napier used his time up there to call for attacks on an Israeli dance troupe that was due to visit the UK:
19, 20, 21 November, go to Sadlers Wells at 6 o'clock and drive Bathsheba [theatre] out of London, while Hezbollah drove them out of Lebanon, and while the Arab resistance drives them out of Israel.
Did Corbyn have a word with Napier about this?

And there he is, at the Deir Yassin Remembered service organised by his friend, the Holocaust denier Paul Eisen. Corbyn reportedly went there every year - did he ever raise the subject with Eisen? How about when Corbyn sat on a platform with Dyab Abu Jahjah, and invited him over for tea?

It's very very easy to say that you're opposed to racism. It's surely isn't that much harder to actually oppose it, but for some reason Corbyn keeps on lobbying on behalf of racists and attending their functions and sharing platforms with them, and we never hear him actually criticising them. In fact, when called upon to do so he defends them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:25 AM on September 20, 2015


Oh, that was quick:
Labour leader forced to quit Stop the War Coalition after attack on Royal family
Jeremy Corbyn was under intense pressure last night after his peace movement published a “disgraceful” diatribe against the Queen.
A poem on the front page of the Stop the War Coalition website alleges that the Queen has a “criminal record” and is “lubricating Britain’s wars”, while the Royal family are arms dealers and “friends to despots and dictators”.

At midday on Saturday, the Telegraph asked Mr Corbyn’s office to comment on the article.
Almost five hours later, Labour announced that he was standing down as chairman of the Stop the War Coalition after four years in charge.

However, in a gesture of defiance to his critics, he sent the group a message of support, saying it represented “the very best in British political campaigning” and promised that its cause “will remain my cause”.

Mr Corbyn’s office repeatedly refused to criticise the poem, claiming that the Labour leader had not seen it and so could not comment.

His refusal to condemn the tirade provoked outrage from his own shadow ministers, who said they were “appalled” by the sentiments it expressed.
I'm sure Mr Corbyn is a busy man, but it's extraordinary how often his office has to lie on his behalf.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:31 AM on September 20, 2015


Next, the patriotic Daily Telegraph -- owned by off-shore, corporate tax evaders the Barclay Brothers -- reveal that 40 years ago Corbyn used to madly pogo to the frenzied beat of anarchic anti-monarchist music! Shock! Horror!
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:28 AM on September 20, 2015 [4 favorites]


Corbyn may very well say that he's spent his life opposing racism

Oh, come on, are you suggesting there's some sort of worldwide conspiracy to forge evidence of Corbyn's decades of work campaigning against racism?

, but there he is, up on a platform with Mick Napier, Stephen Sizer, and John Rees

As I say above, I don't think sharing a platform with someone means that you share their views.

And there he is, at the Deir Yassin Remembered service organised by his friend, the Holocaust denier Paul Eisen.

Corbyn:
“Fifteen years ago [Eisen] was not a Holocaust denier,” said the Labour leadership frontrunner. “Had he been a Holocaust denier, I would have had absolutely nothing to do with him. I was moved by the plight of people who had lost their village in Deir Yassin.”
Since that won't be good enough for you, how about this letter signed by 30-odd British Jewish public figures angered by the Jewish Chronicle attacks on Corbyn:
Corbyn has an outstanding record of opposing racism, including antisemitism in all its forms. He was particularly prominent in the campaign against apartheid in South Africa. He has consistently supported oppressed peoples such as the Kurds and the Palestinians.
The allegation that Corbyn supports or associates with Holocaust deniers is malicious and unfounded. It is based on an article in the Daily Mail, which was dependent on the word of a self-confessed Holocaust denier, Paul Eisen. The JC reports him as saying that Corbyn donated to Deir Yassin Remembered. So did many people, before DYR was taken over by antisemites and Holocaust deniers. The JC’s efforts to paint Corbyn as a closet antisemite can only help legitimise those who are antisemitic.
FWIW, I do think that Corbyn should more explicitly condemn some of the people he's shared a platform with in the past - Napier is a very nasty piece of work - but the idea that he's some sort of closet racist and anti-semite is just absurd, and doesn't match the facts that we know about him.

If you think Corbyn is an anti-semite, find some evidence that he is - all you're doing in this thread is making vague, mealy-mouthed implications that because he's too slow to condemn others, he must therefore agree with them. It's bollocks.

it's extraordinary how often his office has to lie on his behalf.

Er, where in that story is there any suggestion that Corbyn's office lied about anything?
posted by jack_mo at 7:12 AM on September 20, 2015 [12 favorites]


Er, where in that story is there any suggestion that Corbyn's office lied about anything?

Nowhere. Unfortunately, Joe's comments in this specific thread are directed by a political goal wholly tangential to the discussion of British politics.
posted by howfar at 7:58 AM on September 20, 2015 [15 favorites]


Yeah, it's pretty much time for Joe to take his I/P concerns to an I/P specific thread, and if he can't find any ruminate on how that's his own damn fault.
posted by Artw at 8:31 AM on September 20, 2015 [15 favorites]


I miss Paris.
posted by fullerine at 11:14 AM on September 20, 2015


Well British politics has taken a bit of turn tonight
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:53 PM on September 20, 2015


My Twitter feed seems to have crossed over with Black Mirror, I have no idea what's going on...
posted by Artw at 4:16 PM on September 20, 2015


Oh. Oh dear.
posted by Artw at 4:20 PM on September 20, 2015 [2 favorites]


Good news Jeremy - the press focus has shifted from you a bit! #hameron
posted by Flitcraft at 4:20 PM on September 20, 2015


You can devestate an economy in the name of provably wrong theory, prey upon the disadvantaged and the downtrodden while going out of your way to demonise them, but you fuck one pig...
posted by Artw at 4:23 PM on September 20, 2015 [3 favorites]


Ally Fogg points out that every Corbyn smear from now on can be simply countered with "Yeah, but Cameron fucked a dead pig."
posted by Grangousier at 4:49 PM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


Is this a new version of the LBJ anecdote?
posted by adamvasco at 5:07 PM on September 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


And we're sitting here, many miles from home, intermittently bursting into spontaneous fits of giggles. This is beautiful.
posted by Grangousier at 5:21 PM on September 20, 2015




I had work to do, dammit.
posted by Artw at 5:28 PM on September 20, 2015


Is a poke in a pig a pig just a pig in a poke?
posted by rongorongo at 1:21 AM on September 21, 2015


The best thing I've seen? #Baeofpigs
posted by longbaugh at 1:28 AM on September 21, 2015


Interesting, in passing, that Corbyn became a vegetarian and joined the League Against Cruel Sports after his experiences of working on a pig farm.
posted by rongorongo at 2:24 AM on September 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


"JEREMY CORBYN FONDLES CELERY INAPPROPRIATELY" - THE SNU
posted by longbaugh at 2:56 AM on September 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


This Is What Jeremy Corbyn’s New Labour Coalition Looks Like Paul Mason writing in The Nation
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:30 AM on September 21, 2015 [3 favorites]


The coverage gets increasingly desperate.
in 1979 Corbyn accidentally spent £3.45 more than he should have.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:36 AM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Did he spend it on pork scratchings?
posted by Artw at 6:38 AM on September 21, 2015 [2 favorites]


I actually intend to get incredibly worked up about his not singing, as I need to distract myself from what’s really happening. Any time I see someone not singing the right song or wearing the right flower in their lapel, I will scream “Traitor!”, as otherwise I will be forced to dwell on the projections that mean our climate is warming rapidly. I will sing my national song as my habitat burns and whole species become extinct; I will sing it as gargantuan boiling waves flecked with rubble and major public buildings pursue me through the streets. I will sing it as I light a pyre of garbage to warn my fellow survivors that our enemies the Crabmen have begun their final sideways march out of the sea. I will sing my national song in a rich baritone in one of humankind’s final mountaintop redoubts. Even when there is none left to hear but the carrion birds that circle me daily, I will sing.

It’s odd that Jeremy Corbyn is considered non-conformist. He couldn’t be more British if he bled tea - Frankie Boyle
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:14 AM on September 21, 2015 [5 favorites]




I'm guessing the only solution for the Guardian to save face is either to admit they're a libdem rag for good, or that an internal conduct investigation finds a bunch of people guilty of unethical practices and forced to resign, replaced by people aligned with the old labour ideals instead of despairing Blairites.
posted by lmfsilva at 3:22 PM on September 21, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jeremy Corbyn interview: the leader strikes back

I love that he has an allotment!
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:49 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]


Red Neoliberals: How Corbyn’s Victory Unmasked Britain’s Guardian
The paper's support of neo-liberalism also meant that that sided with "better together" rather than "yes" in the Scottish referendum and it political aftermath. Here, as with Corbyn, the paper swum vigorously against a popular, democratic, left-leaning tide created by those it might be expected to have supported. That is a costly option these days - and it is one that leaves Corbyn supporters with no newpaper they can call their own.
posted by rongorongo at 1:56 AM on September 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


The Telegraph asks: The end of the Labour Party might be closer than any of us really believed.
The Labour Party needs to make a choice: is it a serious political party or a protest group in Parliament?

Whilst the The Independent reports: More people have joined Labour since Jeremy Corbyn became leader than are in Ukip (or the lib dems)

Meanwhile The Guardian rebuts, yes many have joined, but how many have left? Are you thinking of leaving the labour party? (Red NeoLiberals indeed)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:35 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]


Surely the guardian could grab a couple of interns and make up a labour exodus story like they've done with all the other anti corbyn shite they're printing.
posted by fullerine at 7:26 AM on September 24, 2015 [4 favorites]


The Corbyn earthquake – how Labour was shaken to its foundations

The inside story – from the candidates and advisers – of how Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour leadership campaign delivered the political shock of a generation

It's long but it's an interesting read.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:57 AM on September 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


It's long but it's an interesting read.

Including some absolutely corking quotes from anonymous Blairites:
“To have [the close of nominations] at 12 o’clock on a Monday – we must have been on fucking crack cocaine. You can’t get to anyone, so people were wandering in after a weekend of spending time with their bloody constituency secretary or their leftwing wife, they just fucking wander off the train and hadn’t even had a cup of tea in the tea room by 12 o’clock on a Monday. They go straight down to the PLP office and do something stupid. The people that are around on a Monday morning are the London lot – and for fuck’s sake, it’s the home of the left, it’s all the fucking mayoral candidates and deputy leader candidates.”
posted by jack_mo at 4:39 AM on September 25, 2015 [4 favorites]


Haha. It's all the fault of leftwing wives!
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:52 AM on September 25, 2015 [5 favorites]


The vast majority of my soul wants to be heartened by the Corbyn victory, but that Guardian article helps drive home how much of a perfect storm it was.

I firmly believe that we’re moving into an era of backlash against political blandness. I think that candidates will be able to set themselves apart by speaking frankly and honestly, and in a manner that makes it clear that they are not running everything they say through a gauntlet of mental campaign advisors.

The advantage of this strategy in the short term is that the current media landscape will find it utterly perplexing — why is this person behaving like a human being? It will serve as an indictment of their framework, rather than the person who fails to fit into it.

(This does not require everyone to start behaving like Donald Trump and be “politically incorrect.” Trump’s problem is not that he’s frank — it’s that he appears to believe awful things and is an awful person.)

Now, the Corbyn victory could be proof that I’m right about all this. More likely, though, it’s about what happens when you make party membership as easy as signing up online and paying £3. (Maybe if Labour had made that change before 2010 we’d never have had Ed Miliband to kick around.) It’s also likely that the average Labour party member has always (as of late, at least) been far to the left of the average Labour MP, and that previous Corbyn-esque candidates would’ve sailed to victory in a leadership election if they had found enough MPs to nominate them. I’m trying to avoid the pundit tendency of making newly-discovered facts contort to support long-held notions.
posted by savetheclocktower at 5:14 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


Corbyn Turns Moon Red!
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:30 AM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


The latest Conservatives video, all it needs is the Hell's Kitchen sound effect
posted by lucidium at 7:41 PM on September 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Wow. That's something. I especially like the audio post production they've done to turn interviews into illicit sounding secret recordings.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 10:08 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


I had thought the wild hyperbole might have died down by now, but obviously not.
So just this morning I knocked up a new twitter bot , which is the very definition of cheap bots done quick and needs much refinement, but for now we'll see what it comes up with.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:31 AM on September 29, 2015


The latest Conservatives video

Haven't they figured out that this national security thing just makes them sound like idiots yet? Are they really that scared of Corbyn?
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 5:17 AM on September 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


LABOR'S PLAN: REASONABLE THINGS SUPPORTED BY MAINSTREAM ECONOMICS

BE AFRAID, PEONS
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:01 AM on September 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


The Conference speech is worth listening to. He comes off well I think.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:49 PM on September 29, 2015


'Say the word Israel' heckler yells at UK Labor head Corbyn after speech
After concluding a ten-minute speech given at a pro-Israel reception in London Tuesday night, new UK Labor Party leader Jeremy Corbyn was heckled by a audience member after he failed to mention Israel by name in his comments.

"Say the word Israel" a man yelled inside the packed auditorium where the Labor Friends of Israel event was being held before being ushered out by security guards, British daily The Telegraph reported. The man, whose identity remains unknown, was not allowed back inside.

The Labor leader looked in shock after the outburst was made, according to The Telegraph, which followed a speech on the importance of the two-state solution between Israel and Palestine.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:54 PM on September 29, 2015


Interesting: Revealed: ‘unspun’ Jeremy Corbyn used an old speech rejected by Miliband

The actual story is that the borrowed chunks were taken from a blog post written in 2011. There's nothing immoral about it, presuming Corbyn had the author's permission, but his heavy reliance on the blog seems a bit weak.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:46 PM on September 29, 2015


The author of that chunk says:

"...I discovered for the first time that Corbyn had used the passage almost exactly in the form I offered it to him (and others). I also discovered that some British media were suggesting that his use was unauthorised. This is quite untrue."
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:38 AM on September 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


The actual actual story is that this is a part of a speech written a while ago for a labour leader by a speech writer, and then not used, it was then posted on a blog of stuff the writer had written.
The link you posted about it being written "for Ed Milliband" is demonstrably not true.

Speech writers (I assume) are like technical writers (or any other writer), they have a store cupboard of zingers and nice turns of phrase from many sources and assemble speeches from the best of them.
No other political speech in the history of history has been written from whole cloth. This chunk was in the "Labour Speech Writers toolkit" and was used from it as it was intended (and expressly written) to be used.

This whole Corbyn reused an old stolen speech is a made up non-story. You could tell exactly the same story about any political speech.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:44 AM on September 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


You'd have thought that the journalists at the Spectator might have actually fucking contacted the chap who wrote the bloke the blog post pre-written political speech to check whether he asked permission, particularly since the author of that piece apparently *knows* the writer of the speech.

Is this what passes for journalism nowadays? So desperate to stick the knife in they couldn't even be arsed to ask whether it was stolen without attribution?

I spent 10 seconds looking for the blog, clicked on the link to Heller's Facebook (another 5 seconds) and he's actually 100% okay with Corbyn using the speech. Heller even had an article in the Guardian confirming this (and I quote) -

"As with every other new Labour leader, I offered it to Corbyn shortly after his election, both to him personally and to Neale Coleman, on learning of his appointment as chief of staff."

Maybe the Spectator should look elsewhere for cheap shots against him?
posted by longbaugh at 3:49 AM on September 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


You're triumphantly demolishing a straw man. Nobody suggests that it was unauthorised - or that it had been written specifically for Miliband. Here's what the "demonstrably untrue" article actually says:
Mr Heller [...] has been offering his speech to various Labour leaders since the days of Neil Kinnock. [Labour Party leader 1983–1992 - JiA] Four years ago, he offered Ed Miliband this unsolicited advice. As best I can tell, Miliband ignored him – as previous Labour leaders had. So Heller posted his words on his website, a well of leftie rhetoric free to anyone who may want to use it.
Everybody expects that politicians will have speech writers; we don't demand that their addresses be all their own work. But ... why didn't anyone say, "Jeremy, it's your big speech to the Labour Conference. You can do better than quote a blog post from 2011, particularly since the audience will be expecting to hear what you have to say. And if anyone finds out that you've filed the edges off freely-available material, they will laugh at you."
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:55 AM on September 30, 2015



I had actually misread the headline "Jeremy Corbyn used an old speech rejected by Miliband" as saying the speech was written for Milliband (as, I suspect the author of the piece intended) so I retract my "demonstrably untrue" statement, but it is at best wilfully misleading.

However it 's not from a blog post and you keep saying that in an attempt to undermine. It was from a speech written for a labour leader which was then given by a labour leader.
The writer did not " offer... Ed Miliband this unsolicited advice.". He offered use of a speech that he had written.

The final paragraph of this article then insinuates twice that it was used without attribution. Again, wilfully misleading.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:08 AM on September 30, 2015


Joe, you're ignoring the quote from the Grauiniad that I posted above.

"As with every other new Labour leader, I offered it to Corbyn shortly after his election, both to him personally and to Neale Coleman, on learning of his appointment as chief of staff."

I hope that makes it clearer for you now.
posted by longbaugh at 4:10 AM on September 30, 2015


Well, here's the blog post. Or "material posted on a blog", if you prefer it that way:
A collection of zingers

Longbaugh: The final paragraph of this article then insinuates twice that it was used without attribution.

Hmm. Did Corbyn attribute it to anyone? I don't recall Corbyn ever saying something like "As Richard Heller wrote ...."

But that's fine; I suppose most politicians use speechwriters of some sort or another. In this case, though, Corbyn was reciting "a collection of zingers" that had been freely available on the Internet for some years. Corbyn didn't even secure an exclusive license: Heller says that he offered it to Corbyn and his staff but never heard back from them, although he was delighted to later learn that Corbyn had used it. And well he may have been, although I think it's a bit like getting a prestigious internship in lieu of an actual job. Still, I suppose it's Economy 2.0 and Mr Heller wasn't in any position to ask to be paid for his work.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:09 AM on September 30, 2015


Fine, we all accept that you think this is some terrible political faux-pas and so on and so forth.

But I don't think that. I think this is nonsense manufactured outrage over nothing, as usual.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:32 AM on September 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


2000+ People joined the Labour party following the speech, so it couldn't have been all that bad
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 7:52 AM on September 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, but they're just 2000 people from some blog that Ed Miliband rejected four years ago...
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 8:16 AM on September 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


Labour doesn't really NEED members and in fact adding them is a fundamental mistake...
posted by Artw at 8:51 AM on September 30, 2015 [4 favorites]




Jeremy Corbyn’s Necessary Agenda
Seven economists (including Joseph Stiglitz, Thomas Piketty, and me) have agreed to become economic advisers to Jeremy Corbyn, the new leader of the British Labour Party. I hope we will have a shared goal to help Labour shape an economic policy that is investment-led, inclusive, and sustainable. We will bring different ideas to the table, but these are my thoughts on the kind of progressive agenda the United Kingdom – and the rest of the world – now needs.
Read more at https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/corbyn-labour-progressive-economic-agenda-by-mariana-mazzucato-2015-09#83rX6TRzI22CmzTR.99<>
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:09 PM on September 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Been out of the country and I just saw my first recent BBC news report (last night's 10 o'Clock, I think) on the Labour conference and... wow... they're really doing the Mail's work, aren't they?

Out of curiosity, Artw, why is Labour adding members a mistake?
posted by Grangousier at 5:34 PM on September 30, 2015


They prevent easy triangulation to Tory-lite, the only sure path to Victory.
posted by Artw at 5:45 PM on September 30, 2015


including Joseph Stiglitz, Thomas Piketty, and me

Lunch with the FT: Mariana Mazzucato - "The first time I saw Mariana Mazzucato in action was when she intellectually eviscerated a guileless American venture capitalist..."[1,2,3; pdf]

also btw...
-Managerialism vs innovation
-NIB: good economics, bad politics
-A much-maligned engine of innovation
-Putting the 'New Deal' into climate R&D
-Mission Finance: starting to think big again
-Why innovation needs the help of an active state
-Serious innovation requires serious state support
-Mariana Mazzucato at FT Camp Alphaville Robot Panel
posted by kliuless at 6:09 PM on September 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


Out of curiosity, Artw, why is Labour adding members a mistake?

Here's a more serious answer than Artw's: party members can affect the Labour Party's platform and select its representatives, but they can't necessarily affect the outcome of an election. Consider the Tea Party in the USA: it has been massively successful at swinging the strategy and internal debate of the Republican Party, but many senior party members fear that their party will ultimately be destroyed by radical know-nothings.

The question that needs to be asked is, is the goal to have
  • A Labour government?
  • A Labour-led government?
  • A "strong" Labour Party?
  • A Labour Party with the "correct" ideology?
Each of those is a legitimate position, but they need different strategies. That's not to say that you can't win government with (e.g.) an ideologically-pure party, but sacrificing diversity is a high-stakes gamble because it reduces your ability to recover from failure. Similarly, embracing pragmatism to win government will not always weaken your party - the initial burst in popularity may help you gain members - but after a while the party members may get sick of being ignored. And so forth.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:18 PM on September 30, 2015


They prevent easy triangulation to Tory-lite, the only sure path to Victory.

Difficult to assess exactly how much irony there is in that, but it's fairly clear that victory isn't an option in the traditional sense, even under an "acceptable" Tory-lite candidate. I mean, they thought Ed Miliband was too left wing. I suspect the most useful path for the next couple of years would be to make explicit the mechanisms the establishment - which seems to include the BBC, the New Statesman and the Guardian - employ to destroy Corbyn. What surprises me is that it isn't tinfoil-hat stuff, they're really, really obvious about it. The secondary thing, which pleases me, is to get the reality-based economic narrative (Mazzucato, Piketty, etc) into the public eye, and was wondering whether being a member might assist with that. The last time I considered joining a political party, the miners' strike happened, but was put off by the trotskyists. Now, weirdly enough, it's the right (or as the media insist on calling them the "Moderate" "modernisers") who are as fanatical and detached from reality as the trots were then.
posted by Grangousier at 6:40 PM on September 30, 2015


to make explicit the mechanisms the establishment [...] employ to destroy Corbyn.

Answer: Jeremy Corbyn.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:30 PM on September 30, 2015


It's amazing what people will take at face value these days.
posted by Artw at 7:37 PM on September 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I suspect the most useful path for the next couple of years would be to make explicit the mechanisms the establishment - which seems to include the BBC, the New Statesman and the Guardian - employ to destroy Corbyn.

I'm having real problems making my bot by ridiculous enough to be honest.
Every time something absurd gets generated the media goes and throws a new hissy fit about an even more pointless thing.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 11:28 PM on September 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Most of these stories are more or less pointless. But let me give you a point of comparison: last year it turned out that a senior-ish US politician, Steve Scalise, had addressed a white supremacist front group in 2002. He did the "I can't recall ... didn't seem racist ... maybe I was there for another reason ..." dance for a while, but it eventually became clear that he had spoken there; that he had been invited by two of David Duke's aides; that he'd been trawling the gutters for Duke's supporters since 1999 and that Duke's supporters had openly endorsed him.

And you know, he's still in Congress, still the House Majority Whip, and it's basically a dead issue. Should it not be a dead issue? Well, I think it shouldn't be, but how long are you going to beat that horse? The meeting was in 2002! We've all moved on.

Then there's Rand Paul, who may or may not be running for President in 2016. He's got something of a chequered history, with at least a couple of his spokespeople turning out to be horrible, horrible racists. Should that count against him? Well, I think so. And his own position on (e.g.) the Civil Rights Act is pretty equivocal. But those are his aides, who don't work for him any more, and it's not like he's come out with anything directly racist, that I know of. I mean, it's not like his dad's openly-racist newsletters, but his father denies being responsible for them and who knows.

So when I say that Corbyn has befriended horrible racists, and shared platforms with them, and attended their (ostensibly non-racist) functions, I really don't expect it to get any more traction than the stories about Scalise and Rand Paul and Paul's father. The stories pop up, the candidate does a bit of a shuffle to confuse everything, and we all move on. But we shouldn't. The associations were bad, and the shuffle just makes things worse. So even though I know that Corbyn's hardly going to be kicked out just because he hangs out with Holocaust deniers, I think it's worth bringing up. We shouldn't accept this sort of thing, and even if all we can do is force these guys to lie about their comrades, at least we've made things that much harder for them. Perhaps it will warn their successors.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:55 AM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Can we not revisit this argument?
We covered it, in detail around earlier in this thread. You're just going to get the same responses.

The media establishment are just throwing everything at this guy, literally everything. They said that he wanted an asteroid to wipe out humanity (Daily Mail link, sorry, but when you're talking about bad journalism you're going to get one eventually.).
If there was any legs to these allegations at all I would expect to see something a bit more damning. (I get that you think what they found is damning enough, I disagree, it seems like a bunch of hearsay, implication and insinuation to me, but that's just me.)

I'm really sorry that we disagree so much on this, because I can see that you are very passionate about this issue (and rightly so), and I'm delighted that you're in this thread to provide a measure of balance, but I just don't see that revisiting this is going to get us anywhere.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:54 AM on October 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


he hangs out with Holocaust deniers

Oh for fuck's sake. You mean Eisen? I can't be arsed repeating myself, so please have a read of the quotes in this comment.

The 'Corbyn is an anti-semite' story isn't getting any traction because... he isn't an anti-semite.

in this thread to provide a measure of balance

That's one way of looking at it, I suppose.
posted by jack_mo at 4:18 AM on October 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


Most of these stories are more or less pointless.

Yes.
posted by Artw at 4:31 AM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm having real problems making my bot by ridiculous enough to be honest.
Every time something absurd gets generated the media goes and throws a new hissy fit about an even more pointless thing.


You know something's up when satire is this difficult. I'm finding the reporting too to be quite staggeringly absurd and unashamedly unprofessional.

The latest example of unbelievably cringeworthy journalistic amateurism was a showcase for Corbyn's reasoned and serious approach. A ten year old could have done a better job of the interview.

Then there's this juvenile reporting about a Labour fundraising breakfast.

I'm beginning to think that the unceasing barrage of misreporting and incredulity from the media is only serving to help Corbyn and his new agenda. It just makes Corbyn look like a grown up, and makes these media people look like kids.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 7:03 AM on October 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Incidentally guys,
Corbyn refuses Irn-Bru in scotland!

but my bot totally called it THE DAY BEFORE!
Satire is dead.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:12 AM on October 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


Corbyn refuses Irn-Bru in scotland!

UPDATE: Corbyn has accepted the gift of some Irn-Bru from Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale. Scottish Labour is saved.

According to Dugdale, Corbyn said: “It’s like nothing I’ve ever tasted.”
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:29 AM on October 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


Corbyn's first party political broadcast Straight talking, honest politics
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:35 PM on October 1, 2015


According to Dugdale, Corbyn said: “It’s like nothing I’ve ever tasted.”

Technically correct, but avoids the real issue: it is made in Scotland from girders.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:39 PM on October 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Corbyn has refused to bow down and kiss the Queen. Apparently he's going to get into her Privy some other way, though.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:17 AM on October 8, 2015


Corbyn has refused to bow down and kiss the Queen.

A story that turned out to be a load of bollocks. Fancy that.
posted by jack_mo at 3:33 AM on October 10, 2015 [4 favorites]


That report implies he changed his mind after missing the first meeting at which he might have been sworn in. I was pretty sure he would; the pressure on him must have been enormous.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:16 PM on October 10, 2015


Momentum
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:55 AM on October 11, 2015


Revealed: Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell's close IRA links
[...] it is the explicit support for the Brighton bombing in London Labour Briefing magazine that may prove the most controversial.

In its December 1984 leader, the editorial board “disassociated itself” from an article the previous month criticising the bombing, saying the criticism was a “serious political misjudgment.” [...]

Mr Corbyn was general secretary of the editorial board at the time. Other reference material describes him as a member of the board. Mr Corbyn ran Briefing’s mailing list and supporters’ register, according to an advert in the March 1983 issue.

He usually chaired its fringe meetings at Labour conferences and other events and was a keynote speaker at its annual general meeting in July 1985, after the Brighton articles appeared.

In a telephone interview during the recent leadership campaign, Mr Corbyn was repeatedly asked by a BBC interviewer whether he condemned the murders by the IRA.

He five times refused to answer the question directly, saying: “I condemn what was done by the British Army as well as the other sides” before the line went dead.

Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell did not respond to requests for comment.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:36 AM on October 11, 2015


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