"It is not our place to forgive"

September 22, 2015 9:11 AM

When reparation efforts are rejected after wrongdoing, what's a PUA to do? Nonprofit sexual abuse advocacy group Our Voice has declined donations from Waking Life Espresso owners Jared Rutledge and Jacob Owens following their exposure as creators of the semi-anonymous "Holistic Game" Twitter account and accompanying blog, in addition to over 20 hour-long podcasts they recorded under aliases.

In their statement, Our Voice writes that "We will not be taking their money because it is not our place to forgive. Our VOICE is not in a position of absolving them for their misogyny as it perpetuates a culture of danger to all women and girls."

In their joint statement, Rutledge and Owens also write that "Our employees who have lost their jobs due to our behavior will be given severance to help as they transition." At least two of their employees, however, have declined their offer: "We also believe that money can not be used to mend broken trust, absolve one of accountability, or assuage the weight of personal guilt."

Also:
Asheville Citizen-Times
Asheville Blog
Jezebel

posted by witchen (37 comments total)

> Some people want to see the business closed, others who are angry are unsure of the solution

If coffee shop profit margins are as thin as I've been told they are, this problem will probably resolve itself before too long.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:15 AM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

uppance, here it comes.
posted by chavenet at 9:24 AM on September 22, 2015 [9 favorites]

petition to pull waking life espresso's flash chilled coffee off the shelves, only ~600 more signatures to go
posted by and they trembled before her fury at 9:31 AM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

the people who have lost jobs are because their business tanked? surely they will get other jobs, since other businesses will take up the slack and employ more people.

i don't mean to dismiss their individual problems, but i see this sometimes as an argument for not taking action against a company, and it makes no sense to me. boycotting the company seems like a swell idea - in the long term it hits the owners, not the employees.
posted by andrewcooke at 9:43 AM on September 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Holy shit, GROSS. I've been following this for a bit but I had no idea these two trash-skeletons covered in hate-meat were actually trying to buy off the public by donating money to Our Voice. How disgusting of them, above and beyond what they've already done, to try to make a rape crisis organization complicit in their desperate attempts to backpedal and slap a coat of paint over their vicious misogyny. Misdirection at its finest: "Hey everyone, look over there! Just a couple of regular old nice guys, donating money to charity!"

"Under a disguise that I thought would be anonymous, without the accountability that good friends hold you too, this persona that I am fully responsible for developed into a chauvinist and a misogynist," Owens wrote. "I love women. I value them. In my experiences with them they have taught me of kindness, grace, and compassion. Many of my words in the podcast do not reflect that."

Wow. Now there's a totally un-self-aware gaslighting asshole if ever there was. It takes a lot to get me to say this without a hint of humor or lightness, but seriously: fuck off.

On a happier note, I had heard somewhere on the wilds of the internets that a bunch of other coffeeshops in Asheville had offered to pick up Waking Life's former employees -- does anyone know if there's any truth to that?
posted by divined by radio at 9:45 AM on September 22, 2015 [24 favorites]

"There's nothing I can do" yeah there is asshole, stop being a misogynistic asshole.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:48 AM on September 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

When they refer to women as "fuck-socks" and gleefully talk about having sex with a woman so medicated that she couldn't possibly consent...their business closing is hardly the worst thing I wish upon them.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:51 AM on September 22, 2015 [19 favorites]

I don’t see an ending to this that doesn’t involve both men leaving Asheville and setting up shop somewhere else — maybe they do it together or maybe they go their separate ways. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll keep skeeving on women in the new place; maybe they truly have learned their lessons. But I doubt they’ll be able to repair their reputations in town.
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:53 AM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Now now, SecretAgentSockpuppet, they love and value women. They said so!
posted by Elementary Penguin at 9:53 AM on September 22, 2015

This is all suddenly reminding me of an anecdote I read in one of the essays in The Sunflower. It's a story of this renowned and famous rabbi who was going somewhere on a train; but for traveling, he was dressed in regular street clothes. And there was a guy on the train who was just being a massive douche to him (hogging the luggage compartment overhead, and when the rabbi asked if he could move some of his bags over so the rabbi could use it too, the guy was a jerk and said no, etc.)

When they got to the station where they were going, the rabbi had a bunch of people waiting for him to welcome him, and the douche saw that and thought "oh shit" and ran over to apologize to the rabbi and ask for forgiveness for the way he'd acted. But the rabbi said "no". Which shocked everyone. "Rabbi, why aren't you forgiving this man?" someone asked him.

"Because he didn't behave badly towards a rabbi," the rabbi said, "he behaved badly towards a regular-joe guy he didn't think anything of. Let him go find that regular-joe guy and ask him for forgiveness, he's the only one that can offer it."

The owners of Waking Life espresso didn't harm the staff of Our Voice. They harmed the women whom they treated like dirt. The women whom they treated like dirt (including the one that got raped, basically) are the only ones to whom these guys should be apologizing, and the only ones who can choose whether or not to accept or reject their apology.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:55 AM on September 22, 2015 [73 favorites]

Re: hiring the former employees: yes! Happily, I think lots of truth, as far as I can tell on local Facebook. This effort is one of a few to get the word out and get the baristas better positions.

Awesome! Thanks for the update from on the ground. I was pretty devastated thinking about anyone (especially any women) who might be unable to stop working for/with admitted rapists out of economic necessity so this is super-heartwarming.
posted by divined by radio at 9:57 AM on September 22, 2015

On a brighter note, I am so, so happy that Asheville is in a place where this kind of behavior caused this much backlash. I know the reaction wouldn't be the same everywhere (I have a hard time imagining people get especially het up about this in the small, military-heavy Southern town I used to live in, for instance), but still, you go, Asheville. It's nice to see we've come far enough that there is somewhere, anywhere, where virulent misogyny and tactics that celebrate manipulation and lack of consent are punished with real-- albeit social rather than legal-- consequences.
posted by WidgetAlley at 9:58 AM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

My fear now that this has blown up is that a bunch of men's rights/PUA types get together and make a point of frequenting this place...but their "apology" might have done away with that possibility.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:58 AM on September 22, 2015

Hell, I've only read the Jezebel article so far and I feel like I need a shower.
posted by JaredSeth at 9:58 AM on September 22, 2015

Oh yuck. Good on everyone for not letting them buy their way into a notpology. "Don't reflect our true beliefs" in-fucking-deed. They actively worked to harm women and think lolnotreally is the proper response? They're just sorry they got caught.
posted by Deoridhe at 9:58 AM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Several comments deleted. Please flag things and refresh the thread rather than responding.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:05 AM on September 22, 2015

There was a post up early this morning and I composed a local reply only to find the post had been taken down.

If you want to see this from the perspective of local anger: http://ashvegas.com/
posted by Mr. Yuck at 10:10 AM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

When reparation efforts are rejected after wrongdoing, what's a PUA to do?

In the words of Rufus T. Firefly, "Go, and never darken my towels again!"
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:12 AM on September 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

Jared Rutledge, 10 Apr 2015: "i'm more about long term harem building than one night stands"

Jared Rutledge, 19 Sep 2015: "We didn't always say nice things, and sometimes we were downright mean."

He honestly doesn't think he's done anything truly wrong other than fail to maintain plausible anonymity. Germaine Greer said that women have very little idea of how much men hate them, but living in a world with men like this never lets me forget.
posted by divined by radio at 10:23 AM on September 22, 2015 [42 favorites]

Certainly sounds like a pretty solid case of "I'm sorry I got caught. I promise I won't do it again, until I do."
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 10:44 AM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Exactly, divined by radio. We no longer have plausible deniability when it is coming at us from all sides. It's easier to dismiss a catcall from a block away that we didn't really hear fully, but we think he might have used the word cunt. But when we have their words for all of eternity, screen capped and retweeted, it's hard to remember that there are men that don't hate women.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:47 AM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I really, really, really don't get how some men seem to think they can get out of being called on their rampant misogyny by saying "but I love women!"

I think they honestly believe they do. One of the more interesting things I learned was that benevolent sexism (women are "angels" and should be treated like "Queens") is highly correlated with malevolent sexism (women are "bitches" and should be treated like "hos"). As near as I can tell, the interior experience of these men is that they love women and want them as part of their lives - with the emphasis on PART. They seem to see women as an extension of themselves, as something they deserve and should have, and by and large the question of whether women have thoughts, lives, experiences, or opinions is largely viewed the way one might view a precocious child or unusually intelligent pet - interesting, maybe even worthy of praise, but the real person in the room is the man.

This is a logical extension of something which was literal law in the US until quite recently, and something which remains literal law in other countries now - the idea that women exist as extensions to and property of men. It's behind a lot of the "advice" women receive upon getting harassed - that we should restrict our movements - because the harassment is serving the role of social pressure to reinforce that women don't exist as individuals. It's why men want a "girlfriend who loves games/sports/cars" but get mad when she's better at something than them, or knows more - women are implicitly supposed to fill the role of supporting cast or NPC, not a character in our own right.

And honestly, that POV exists even in men who we wouldn't tend to consider misogynistic. One of the ironic aspects of the "strong woman" trope is that her strength is used in the service of men - narratively, for many men, even if a woman is strong and capable her strength and knowledge is best served by being passed on to the main character (who just happens to be a man - meritocracy!).
posted by Deoridhe at 11:24 AM on September 22, 2015 [43 favorites]

I really, really, really don't get how some men seem to think they can get out of being called on their rampant misogyny by saying "but I love women!"

I'm sure that on some level, those kind of guys "love" their cars or their humidors or dogs or whatever too. So long as those things "behave".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:33 AM on September 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Which is precisely what they want from women, qcubed.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:40 AM on September 22, 2015

Christ. Fuck these guys.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 11:45 AM on September 22, 2015

You know my hope with shit like this being called out and held up along with the videos of catcalling or racial abuse, etc acts as the disinfecting sunshine to really put the stamp of societal disapproval on it. Maybe slowly, surely it will get less and less acceptable. My fervent hope for humanity is that inately most of us don't feel this way - harbor these feelings - and are just too weak to stand up to it until we see it more universally disparaged.
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:46 AM on September 22, 2015

> They seem to see women as an extension of themselves, as something they deserve and should have, and by and large the question of whether women have thoughts, lives, experiences, or opinions is largely viewed the way one might view a precocious child or unusually intelligent pet - interesting, maybe even worthy of praise, but the real person in the room is the man.

Based on my male-to-male interactions with people like this, I don't think this cognitive deficit is limited to how they view women. I don't think they're able to conceive of other people as having agency at all. They don't see other men as their equals either, but as competitors they can't simply dismiss.

Other men are a step above NPCs, they're random encounters to be defeated. It's a different type of interaction, but not one where the other person is any more "human."

Male or Female, they're just another (inconveniently) Human Resource to be exploited.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 11:46 AM on September 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

I think they "love" their humidors and cars regardless of how they behave. They don't have the ability to really talk back.

My point exactly.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:54 AM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

> They don't have the ability to really talk back.

The one PUA type I used to know often described his ex-girlfriends as "crazy," but these alleged mental illnesses seemed to be closer to what most people would call "free will."
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:58 AM on September 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I really hope the PUA community rallies around them and patronizes the place. Nothing will sink the company faster than a plague of PUAs negging anyone who walks in the door.
posted by benzenedream at 11:59 AM on September 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

The always relevant 'negging' XKCD.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:01 PM on September 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Based on my male-to-male interactions with people like this, I don't think this cognitive deficit is limited to how they view women. I don't think they're able to conceive of other people as having agency at all. They don't see other men as their equals either, but as competitors they can't simply dismiss.

Hence all the chest-beating about being "alphas" and other men as "betas." Misogyny and patriarchy really are a hammer that beats down everyone. I hope this public unmasking follows these vile creatures for as long as they are on the internet.

From the open letter written by Laura Hope-Gill: "This is not shaming you. This is seeing you. Know the difference. You are a shame to all men and disgusting nuisance to all women."
posted by Existential Dread at 12:05 PM on September 22, 2015 [12 favorites]

Benzenedream, you're a mean drunk.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:08 PM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Christ. Fuck these guys.

Sigh. People do.
posted by entropone at 12:15 PM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I am at least getting some amusement at imagining the storm of contempt being visited upon them by their former comrades in arms at Heartiste, et al., for begging for forgiveness and not acting like Real Alpha Men.
posted by jokeefe at 12:21 PM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

There is something else that I got from their tone in the apologies. They are using the words and concepts of a certain type of progressive religious vibe to excuse the true repulsiveness of their behavior. Its the same as Josh Duggard using the language of Evangelical Christianity to non-apologize for sexual abuse. ('Holistic Game', 'unhealthy thought patterns', 'a stable and equal society,' humbled by and undeserving of the grace displayed by so many in the face of our actions.')

Reminds me of the Mars Hill church here in Seattle and their secret Christian coffee shop, as well as the recent FPP about Socality. There's aren't any excuses they can make for being such scum bags but I thought it was interesting to see that subtext in the apologies. Anyone else pick up on that?
posted by kittensofthenight at 12:33 PM on September 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

In Rutledge's "apology" is this explanation: Most of my life I’ve struggled with insecurities around dating. I felt like, in the past couple years, that I’d finally gotten a handle on this and experienced more success. So I made a twitter, blog, and got Jacob to podcast with me.

For most people success in dating means meeting fun and interesting new people, having a good time together, and forming fulfilling interpersonal relationships. Especially if it involves overcoming insecurities that were barriers to these things.

For Rutledge and his ilk, success is defined only as having more notches on the bedpost. Women aren't independent people who are worth getting to know as individuals. They are simply things to fuck.
posted by chaoticgood at 12:34 PM on September 22, 2015 [3 favorites]