King of the Wild Frontier
October 20, 2015 1:28 PM Subscribe
The Cold War gift that keeps on giving.
Just testing the the Davy Crockett may have contaminated 12,000 acres around Fort Carson with uranium and depleted uranium residue.
“In the general mindset of the era, it was deemed a requirement for more covert, squad level nuclear weaponry…called the ‘Davy Crockett,’ it was a 155mm caliber tactical nuclear recoilless gun”
With an explosive yield of .01-.02 kilotons, or the equivalent of 10 to 20 tons of TNT the Davy Crockett was developed for covert units to destroy Soviet infrastructure, engage tank formations or repel larger units.
As the largest conventional ordinance has a blast yield of 11 tons of TNT and was short ranged, very inaccurate and likely to expose users to radioactive fallout and contaminate large areas for years, the weapon was wisely discontinued.
Previously
60’s era Action Video
60’s era Action Video
I don't know if I've ever yelled "holy shit" at a book more vehemently than I did when I learned about the Davy Crockett from Schlosser's Command and Control.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 2:08 PM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by the phlegmatic king at 2:08 PM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
OMG, Command and Control should be required reading for everybody. I don't think I realized just how much of the European strategy for NATO depended on those things. (Plus it does an amazing job of gathering all the infighting between the services, as well as that bone-chilling last sentence.)
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:14 PM on October 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:14 PM on October 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
That is fascinating. The phallic picture did make me laugh out loud.
I've been scared to read Command and Control, because I already walk around with a sense of impending doom, and I'd like not to add to it.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:16 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've been scared to read Command and Control, because I already walk around with a sense of impending doom, and I'd like not to add to it.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:16 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
ERMAHGERD NUKERLER ERTERLERY
posted by XMLicious at 2:17 PM on October 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 2:17 PM on October 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
I saw a Davy Crockett in the National Atomic Museum at Albuquerque. It was probably the only exhibit there I had to stifle a laugh at, given that the warhead looks almost comically like what you'd expect Wile E Coyote to receive after he'd ordered the Acme Atom Bomb.
posted by Major Clanger at 2:23 PM on October 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Major Clanger at 2:23 PM on October 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
That action video is fucking crazy. It describes the crater and heat effects as "militarily insignificant" but noted that within a radius of 200 meters, all humans would be fatally irradiated with 3000 rads (30 Gy) and would die in less than two weeks; from 200 to 350 meters, "delayed casualties" would be caused by 650 rads (6.5 Gy), which according to this article, is the LD50 for humans.
All with triumphant music at the head and tail.
posted by infinitewindow at 2:46 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
All with triumphant music at the head and tail.
posted by infinitewindow at 2:46 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
> the weapon was wisely discontinued.
But unwisely built and tested!
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:50 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
But unwisely built and tested!
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:50 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
♩I give my liiiiiife, not for honor, buuut foooor youuuuuuu ♫
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:00 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:00 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
So... it's basically the Fat Man from Fallout 3?
Great, glad to know of yet another thing the devs for that series got right regarding how crazy, batshit insane the Cold War world really was.
posted by RolandOfEld at 3:00 PM on October 20, 2015
Great, glad to know of yet another thing the devs for that series got right regarding how crazy, batshit insane the Cold War world really was.
posted by RolandOfEld at 3:00 PM on October 20, 2015
Yup, per infinitewindow, the point of the Davy Crockett was that although it had a low blast yield, it pumped out a fuckton of radiation -- it was the original high radiation weapon (although not a neutron bomb per se; it lacked the fusion booster).
The idea was that it would allow small mobile units to engage Soviet tank divisions -- you'd pop one over a nearby hillside in the direction of a Soviet armoured force and the radiation would penetrate the armour and kill the tank crews, but the blast wouldn't chew up the scenery.
Problem (a) was that the range of the launcher was barely sufficient to ensure that the crew weren't irradiated with their targets; either you had to have a convenient hill between you and the target or you would dive for cover under your jeep(!) after firing. Problem (b) was that the thing was so tiny it had zero spare room for bells and whistles like permissive action locks: if you had been issued with one, you could basically point it at something and pull the trigger. This did not go down well with some of the politicians who got consulted on the subject (hey, do you want a black market in small, easily concealable nukes?) ...
posted by cstross at 3:11 PM on October 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
The idea was that it would allow small mobile units to engage Soviet tank divisions -- you'd pop one over a nearby hillside in the direction of a Soviet armoured force and the radiation would penetrate the armour and kill the tank crews, but the blast wouldn't chew up the scenery.
Problem (a) was that the range of the launcher was barely sufficient to ensure that the crew weren't irradiated with their targets; either you had to have a convenient hill between you and the target or you would dive for cover under your jeep(!) after firing. Problem (b) was that the thing was so tiny it had zero spare room for bells and whistles like permissive action locks: if you had been issued with one, you could basically point it at something and pull the trigger. This did not go down well with some of the politicians who got consulted on the subject (hey, do you want a black market in small, easily concealable nukes?) ...
posted by cstross at 3:11 PM on October 20, 2015 [13 favorites]
Another vote for Command and Control. I loved how Schlosser weaved the Arkansas story in with the backstory / history portion of the book. Follow that up with The Dead Hand, and you won't sleep for weeks!
posted by ensign_ricky at 3:26 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by ensign_ricky at 3:26 PM on October 20, 2015
The Davy Crockett allowed my father to win an argument by saying "I'm the world's fifth largest nuclear power by numbers, so we're doing it my way."
posted by Etrigan at 3:30 PM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 3:30 PM on October 20, 2015 [7 favorites]
Wait a minute, for the cost of a couple of new jets, they can't clean up?
posted by Oyéah at 3:33 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by Oyéah at 3:33 PM on October 20, 2015
For comparison, a Davy Crockett has about 2-4x the explosive yield of the bomb used in the Oklahoma City bombing.
posted by Hatashran at 3:33 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by Hatashran at 3:33 PM on October 20, 2015
Just the knowledge that the Davy Crockett even existed makes me laugh for about ten seconds, and then I have to curl up on the couch for a while.
posted by Guy Smiley at 4:26 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Guy Smiley at 4:26 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
The real reason for the Davy Crockett was that the Army didn't want to get locked out of the nuke game, which the Air Force and Navy were getting to play.
A lot of weapon acquisition and development which doesn't make sense to outside observers can be explained as being the result of inter-service rivalry, especially between the Air Force and the Army.
The Air Force was part of the Army during WWII, and after it was spun off as a separate service they never forgot that. They've resented it ever since, and the fate-worse-than-death for the Air Force is to be consigned to the role of "supporting the Army". (That's why the Air Force has always hated the A-10, and has tried several times to kill it off. They didn't want it in the first place, and they only took it because Congress threatened to give it to the Army if the Air Force wouldn't take it.)
The Air Force has always seen "close air support" as the first step in turning the Air Force into a support force for the Army, and has always resisted it.
And that's why the Army developed attack helicopters. There was an agreement between the services that the Army was forbidden to have any fixed wing aircraft. They were supposed to rely on the Air Force for those kinds of things -- but the Air Force didn't provide as much such support as the Army wanted.
Who's at fault with this? Pretty much everyone, but more the Air Force than anyone else. Greatest blame and responsibility, though, rests with various Presidents and ranking members of Congress who haven't cracked the whip at the Air Force to get them to accept that they are part of a combined-arms military and that sometimes means (often means) being subordinate to the other services.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 4:29 PM on October 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
A lot of weapon acquisition and development which doesn't make sense to outside observers can be explained as being the result of inter-service rivalry, especially between the Air Force and the Army.
The Air Force was part of the Army during WWII, and after it was spun off as a separate service they never forgot that. They've resented it ever since, and the fate-worse-than-death for the Air Force is to be consigned to the role of "supporting the Army". (That's why the Air Force has always hated the A-10, and has tried several times to kill it off. They didn't want it in the first place, and they only took it because Congress threatened to give it to the Army if the Air Force wouldn't take it.)
The Air Force has always seen "close air support" as the first step in turning the Air Force into a support force for the Army, and has always resisted it.
And that's why the Army developed attack helicopters. There was an agreement between the services that the Army was forbidden to have any fixed wing aircraft. They were supposed to rely on the Air Force for those kinds of things -- but the Air Force didn't provide as much such support as the Army wanted.
Who's at fault with this? Pretty much everyone, but more the Air Force than anyone else. Greatest blame and responsibility, though, rests with various Presidents and ranking members of Congress who haven't cracked the whip at the Air Force to get them to accept that they are part of a combined-arms military and that sometimes means (often means) being subordinate to the other services.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 4:29 PM on October 20, 2015 [12 favorites]
Yeah, I can think of a couple times I would have probably fired one of those off.
This is why we have a house rule that I'm not allowed to have atomic weapons.
posted by Naberius at 4:35 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is why we have a house rule that I'm not allowed to have atomic weapons.
posted by Naberius at 4:35 PM on October 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
After the disastrous Virtuous Mission, I'm surprised the U.S. decided to continue experimenting with such a dangerous covert weapon.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:43 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 4:43 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's going to be quite a radon problem in like, 1.2 million years.
posted by ctmf at 4:57 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by ctmf at 4:57 PM on October 20, 2015
cstross:
I am on a mailing list with a guy who works (worked?) at Pickatinny Arsenal and sometimes he tells stories like that that illuminate some decision-making that is really hard to empathize with, fifty years later. Man, that must have been a LOT of fear among the designers and approvers.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:37 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
The idea was that it would allow small mobile units to engage Soviet tank divisions -- you'd pop one over a nearby hillside in the direction of a Soviet armoured force and the radiation would penetrate the armour and kill the tank crews, but the blast wouldn't chew up the scenery.I have long known about this weirdo thing, but I never knew the rationale. And boy howdy is that some lame reasoning. You will wipe out a not-enormous mobile armor group and in exchange allow a whole bunch of ground pounders -- many of whom the tanks probably wouldn't have overrun -- to die slowly and horribly...and this is a good exchange?
I am on a mailing list with a guy who works (worked?) at Pickatinny Arsenal and sometimes he tells stories like that that illuminate some decision-making that is really hard to empathize with, fifty years later. Man, that must have been a LOT of fear among the designers and approvers.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:37 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
(And another vote for "Command & Control." I listened to the audiobook over a few weeks worth of commutes, and some days I walked realllly slowly to the parking lot because it got hard to bear. It actually felt like I was "witnessing" the story, and doing a service to the people who'd died along the way.)
posted by wenestvedt at 5:39 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by wenestvedt at 5:39 PM on October 20, 2015
After the disastrous Virtuous Mission, I'm surprised the U.S. decided to continue experimenting with such a dangerous covert weapon.
You motherfucker, I came here to make this exact same reference.
posted by kafziel at 5:42 PM on October 20, 2015
You motherfucker, I came here to make this exact same reference.
posted by kafziel at 5:42 PM on October 20, 2015
Oh good. My office is right next to Carson. Screw it - I think I'll hold off on quitting smoking for a while.
posted by bibliowench at 5:47 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bibliowench at 5:47 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
"delayed casualties ... 650 rad line ... 350 meters ... troops located ... 1600 meters ... well beyond the minimum safe distance," states the narrator with the assurance of absolute authority.
650 rads kills you 1-1/2 times over. Troops at 1600m may be beyond the 'minimum safe distance' but would nonethess (unless shielded by terrain) still catch a significant dose. Everyone present at one of these dog-and-pony shows was a guinea pig, whether they wore goggles or hid behind dirt.
posted by Twang at 6:48 PM on October 20, 2015
650 rads kills you 1-1/2 times over. Troops at 1600m may be beyond the 'minimum safe distance' but would nonethess (unless shielded by terrain) still catch a significant dose. Everyone present at one of these dog-and-pony shows was a guinea pig, whether they wore goggles or hid behind dirt.
posted by Twang at 6:48 PM on October 20, 2015
650 rad (or 6.5 Gray) is potentially survivable with good medical treatment assuming no combined serious injury. [source (pdf)]
Inverse square law, neglecting shielding: 650 rad at 350 m would be 31 rad at 1600 m. They would have no symptoms of ARS and a slightly elevated risk of cancer in their lifetime.
No argument with the guinea pig remark.
posted by ctmf at 7:04 PM on October 20, 2015
Inverse square law, neglecting shielding: 650 rad at 350 m would be 31 rad at 1600 m. They would have no symptoms of ARS and a slightly elevated risk of cancer in their lifetime.
No argument with the guinea pig remark.
posted by ctmf at 7:04 PM on October 20, 2015
Reminds me of the tactical neutron bomb from the same era, a hydrogen bomb optimized to produce instantaneously lethal radiation instead of a blast. It was dubbed the ultimate capitalist weapon -- designed to kill people without damaging property. Ah, the good old days, when Dr. Strangelove was barely fiction.
posted by JackFlash at 9:53 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by JackFlash at 9:53 PM on October 20, 2015
So is this that thing that a surprising number of high school teachers (would have been teaching in the late '80s) had to run around Europe with during the cold war? I was foggy on the details of my teacher's story but my buddy here at work recalls his math teacher saying that there were specific areas that they used to be deployed at in case of a Soviet ground invasion.
Based on how many of my adult friends from various places had this story told to them, almost verbatim, always by a high school teacher, I had figured it was some kind of tall tale that originated at a conference somewhere. It was always something like "My job was to run around Europe with a nuclear bomb in a backpack..." followed by a question/answer session. Huh.
posted by mcrandello at 10:49 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Based on how many of my adult friends from various places had this story told to them, almost verbatim, always by a high school teacher, I had figured it was some kind of tall tale that originated at a conference somewhere. It was always something like "My job was to run around Europe with a nuclear bomb in a backpack..." followed by a question/answer session. Huh.
posted by mcrandello at 10:49 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Reminds me of the tactical neutron bomb from the same era, a hydrogen bomb optimized to produce instantaneously lethal radiation instead of a blast. It was dubbed the ultimate capitalist weapon -- designed to kill people without damaging property.
Good old Fred Pohl pointed out the flaws of that particular weapon, ironically enough in an issue of Destinies, which more usually was very bullish on the prospect of nuclear war and how to fight it properly, The Team B way. Basically, every time you pop one of those suckers off over an armoured Soviet division, you kill some of them instantaneously, but leave the rest as zombies: doomed to die a hideous radiation death, but still capable of fighting for a couple of days or weeks, which isn't going to be good news for your side.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:32 PM on October 20, 2015
Good old Fred Pohl pointed out the flaws of that particular weapon, ironically enough in an issue of Destinies, which more usually was very bullish on the prospect of nuclear war and how to fight it properly, The Team B way. Basically, every time you pop one of those suckers off over an armoured Soviet division, you kill some of them instantaneously, but leave the rest as zombies: doomed to die a hideous radiation death, but still capable of fighting for a couple of days or weeks, which isn't going to be good news for your side.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:32 PM on October 20, 2015
> This is why we have a house rule that I'm not allowed to have atomic weapons.
When atomic weapons are outlawed, only outlaws will have atomic weapons.
oh, wait . . .
posted by one weird trick at 4:49 AM on October 21, 2015
When atomic weapons are outlawed, only outlaws will have atomic weapons.
oh, wait . . .
posted by one weird trick at 4:49 AM on October 21, 2015
C&C was great - also look out for "15 Minutes: General Curtis LeMay and the Countdown to Nuclear Annihilation".
posted by mfoight at 6:18 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mfoight at 6:18 AM on October 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oyéah: Wait a minute, for the cost of a couple of new jets, they can't clean up?
That would set an unfortunate precedent for the military, its contractors, and lots of other folks. Nothing to see here, people!
posted by sneebler at 7:15 AM on October 21, 2015
That would set an unfortunate precedent for the military, its contractors, and lots of other folks. Nothing to see here, people!
posted by sneebler at 7:15 AM on October 21, 2015
Yes, "standard decontamination procedures" meant halfheartedly sweeping both vehicles and men with a corn broom.
posted by mubba at 8:49 AM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mubba at 8:49 AM on October 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
You can see one at the National Museum of Nuclear Science and History in Albuquerque, NM.
posted by answergrape at 9:33 AM on October 21, 2015
posted by answergrape at 9:33 AM on October 21, 2015
This is why we have a house rule that I'm not allowed to have atomic weapons.
posted by Naberius
...Skippy?
posted by Smedleyman at 5:24 PM on October 22, 2015
posted by Naberius
...Skippy?
posted by Smedleyman at 5:24 PM on October 22, 2015
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