How To Predict Bad Cops In Chicago
December 17, 2015 11:50 AM Subscribe
Not sure that 22% with 4+ complaints can be described as a "few bad apples". It's 22%, a quarter of the force basically. If I bought a crate of apples and a quarter were rotten I'd be pretty pissed.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 12:03 PM on December 17, 2015 [51 favorites]
posted by Hairy Lobster at 12:03 PM on December 17, 2015 [51 favorites]
I think the "theory" is actually this: A few bad apples make the whole bunch go bad.
It's not just that we have a few "problem cops", it's that their colleagues and higher-ups aren't doing enough to weed them out.
posted by monospace at 12:03 PM on December 17, 2015 [36 favorites]
It's not just that we have a few "problem cops", it's that their colleagues and higher-ups aren't doing enough to weed them out.
posted by monospace at 12:03 PM on December 17, 2015 [36 favorites]
(Or worse yet, actively help cover up their crimes, like every other cop on the scene at Laquan McDonald's murder? Who at the very least maintained a conspiracy of silence, if destroying evidence and filing false reports was just going a bit too far?)
posted by Gelatin at 12:04 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 12:04 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
22% seems a bit low for Chicago, actually.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:05 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:05 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
It looks like the entire country has been inculcated by the pop plea made by the Osmonds in the early 70's, and the long standing truism that one bad apple does indeed spoil the whole barrel has been lost to this generation.
posted by klarck at 12:05 PM on December 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by klarck at 12:05 PM on December 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
What a pain in the ass that it takes continued lawsuits to extract this sort of information.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:07 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ogre Lawless at 12:07 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hairy Lobster, the percentages quoted are percentages within the dataset, which does not include officers who received no complaints. They will by definition be higher than the actual incidence in the total workforce.
posted by kisch mokusch at 12:07 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by kisch mokusch at 12:07 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
The 538 article points out that there are "more than 12,000 officers on Chicago's force", so unless they're using a weird definition of "more than" that spikes that number over 15,500, that means most Chicago police have had a complaint filed against them. If you handed me a bushel and said "More than half of these apples might be bad," that is a bad bushel of apples.
posted by Etrigan at 12:12 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 12:12 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
We have very little data about this sort of thing in Chicago. We know the State's Attorney protects bad cops to some degree but the State's Attorney's office releases no data at all. There is actually a petition for them to release their data right now.
posted by mike_bling at 12:14 PM on December 17, 2015
posted by mike_bling at 12:14 PM on December 17, 2015
This is sort of like saying "hey, it's only a few priests who were sexually abusing children in a given diocese, so it's unfair to blame the people that merely covered their crimes up for decades and kept them in power."
posted by duffell at 12:15 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by duffell at 12:15 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
They tend to have badges.
posted by snottydick at 12:19 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by snottydick at 12:19 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Chicago has about 12,000 police officers. Almost 2/3 of them received a complaint some time in four years. I'm not sure that's particularly high. Let's do some back of the envelope guesstimates. Let's say a beat cop has a dozen non-trivial interactions per work day (just guessing), or about 2500 interactions per year. That means 2/3 of them gets one complaint in 10,000 interactions.
How many of these are legit complaints? Hard to say. Cops sometimes do have to use force. People don't like having force used on them. If one out of 1,000 of the Chicagoans a cop interacts with are the kind that file complaints at the drop of a hat (which, as a New Yorker, seems low) that's still ten times more than actually do.
The 22% who receive 4+ complaints are 22% of the 2/3 who actually received complaints, or about 15% of the total force -- not "almost a quarter."
I wouldn't be the least surprised that there are cops that love to intimidate and harass people, and who shouldn't be on the force. But if you bear in mind how many people a cop runs into in a day on the beat, I wouldn't make sweeping statements about cops in general. Both the Internet and people's memories tend to focus on outrages. Your average cop who's doing a good job rarely appears in either.
posted by musofire at 12:23 PM on December 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
How many of these are legit complaints? Hard to say. Cops sometimes do have to use force. People don't like having force used on them. If one out of 1,000 of the Chicagoans a cop interacts with are the kind that file complaints at the drop of a hat (which, as a New Yorker, seems low) that's still ten times more than actually do.
The 22% who receive 4+ complaints are 22% of the 2/3 who actually received complaints, or about 15% of the total force -- not "almost a quarter."
I wouldn't be the least surprised that there are cops that love to intimidate and harass people, and who shouldn't be on the force. But if you bear in mind how many people a cop runs into in a day on the beat, I wouldn't make sweeping statements about cops in general. Both the Internet and people's memories tend to focus on outrages. Your average cop who's doing a good job rarely appears in either.
posted by musofire at 12:23 PM on December 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
Part of the problem is that many police union contracts have clauses that limit recording of complaints against police, either by mandating records be expunged regularly, or that dismissed complaints be removed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:26 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:26 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm really not trying to defend police brutality here (obviously), but can we decide on what the definition of a "bad apple" is in this thread? A single complaint against an officer does not seem to rise to that level to me (while say, 3 or more would), but Etrigan's comment suggests that others don't feel the same way.
If 16% of 28588 complaints are against officers with a single complaint, that means that 4574 officers have a single complaint. The number of officers with 2 or 3 complaints is basically the same percentage (17% and 16% respectively), which suggets that 2287 officers (or so) have 2 complaints and 1144 have 3. The other 14865 complaints are attributed to the 4+ category, which is at most 3716 officers (but probably fewer, since some will have 5+ complaints). The upshot of this all is that, if we define "good apple" as 2 or fewer complaints, there are AT LEAST 7800 officers that fit that definition (never mind the 0 complaints officers), or about 2/3 of the force. The other third is crap, which is way too high a percentage in my mind, but it's not "more than half." That or I've screwed up the math somewhere.
posted by axiom at 12:27 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
If 16% of 28588 complaints are against officers with a single complaint, that means that 4574 officers have a single complaint. The number of officers with 2 or 3 complaints is basically the same percentage (17% and 16% respectively), which suggets that 2287 officers (or so) have 2 complaints and 1144 have 3. The other 14865 complaints are attributed to the 4+ category, which is at most 3716 officers (but probably fewer, since some will have 5+ complaints). The upshot of this all is that, if we define "good apple" as 2 or fewer complaints, there are AT LEAST 7800 officers that fit that definition (never mind the 0 complaints officers), or about 2/3 of the force. The other third is crap, which is way too high a percentage in my mind, but it's not "more than half." That or I've screwed up the math somewhere.
posted by axiom at 12:27 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, jeez guys, lighten up. So what if nearly 2000 cops are routinely abusing their authority and no one's doing anything to stop them? That's, like, barely a drop in the bucket of how many cops we'd potentially let assault and murder innocent people without punishment. You should be thanking us.
posted by shmegegge at 12:29 PM on December 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by shmegegge at 12:29 PM on December 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
More info on what NoxAeternum is referring to can be found at the excellent Police Union Contract Project. From the website:
How Police Union Contracts Block Accountability
How Police Union Contracts Block Accountability
- Preventing police officers from being interrogated immediately after being involved in an incident
- Preventing information on past misconduct investigations from being recorded or retained in an officer's personnel file
- Disqualifying misconduct complaints that are submitted 180+ days after an incident or that take over 1 year to investigate
- Limiting civilian oversight structures from being given the authority to discipline officers for misconduct
I hope that they start a systematic investigation starting with officers with the highest number of complaints.
posted by AlexiaSky at 12:33 PM on December 17, 2015
posted by AlexiaSky at 12:33 PM on December 17, 2015
Disqualifying misconduct complaints that are submitted 180+ days after an incident or that take over 1 year to investigate
Wait, cops get official forgiveness when another arm of the police can't do its fucking job on time?
posted by Etrigan at 12:43 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Wait, cops get official forgiveness when another arm of the police can't do its fucking job on time?
posted by Etrigan at 12:43 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, jeez guys, lighten up. So what if nearly 2000 cops are routinely abusing their authority and no one's doing anything to stop them? That's, like, barely a drop in the bucket of how many cops we'd potentially let assault and murder innocent people without punishment. You should be thanking us.
I'm not sure if this was aimed at me or not, but I'm fucking tired of police brutality threads that devolve into the "all cops are saints" vs "all cops are murderers" strawman camps. Can we have a discussion about the actual facts of the matter, rather than picking teams? I don't think all cops are good, I don't think they're all bad; I do think 1/3 is WAY TOO HIGH but I'm not convinced merely looking at the number of complaints is sufficient. Surely some complaints are bogus, whereas there are also probably a lot of people who don't make a complaint but could (and should). Does that balance out? Who knows?
I think we can probably agree that the structure of police forces doesn't make it easy to weed out bad police. What can be done about that?
posted by axiom at 12:44 PM on December 17, 2015 [20 favorites]
I'm not sure if this was aimed at me or not, but I'm fucking tired of police brutality threads that devolve into the "all cops are saints" vs "all cops are murderers" strawman camps. Can we have a discussion about the actual facts of the matter, rather than picking teams? I don't think all cops are good, I don't think they're all bad; I do think 1/3 is WAY TOO HIGH but I'm not convinced merely looking at the number of complaints is sufficient. Surely some complaints are bogus, whereas there are also probably a lot of people who don't make a complaint but could (and should). Does that balance out? Who knows?
I think we can probably agree that the structure of police forces doesn't make it easy to weed out bad police. What can be done about that?
posted by axiom at 12:44 PM on December 17, 2015 [20 favorites]
I realize that the number of actual complaints are the only information we really have to go on, but underlying all of that is some other number, of still-significant incidents which do not result in a complaint, where the would-be-complainant doesn't even bother to report. The overall picture we have may already be pretty skewed, showing only incidents-which-manifested-in-complaints, and not the number of complainable-incidents.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:45 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:45 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure if this was aimed at me or not, but I'm fucking tired of police brutality threads that devolve into the "all cops are saints" vs "all cops are murderers" strawman camps.
How about if we just go with "enough cops are murderers to be angry about it" and stop trying to figure out what exact mathematically derived number is "enough"?
posted by Etrigan at 12:47 PM on December 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
How about if we just go with "enough cops are murderers to be angry about it" and stop trying to figure out what exact mathematically derived number is "enough"?
posted by Etrigan at 12:47 PM on December 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yeah, I'm definitely angry about it, but what's the right way to fix it? Because if the number is "70% of cops are bastards" then maybe "fire the damn force and start over" is the only way to go, but if it's "30% are bastards" that probably won't fly, you know? Either way the, I don't know, emotionally satisfying "fuck em all, let's just start over" approach is never going to happen in real life. So do we just throw our hands up in despair of anything improving ever? I think instead if prosecutors would consider it their mandate to start bringing charges against police rather than holding them to no account, we might see the needle move.
posted by axiom at 12:51 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by axiom at 12:51 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
The unwritten oath of silence among the police is akin the the mafia or ghetto unspoken rule of not ratting out your own...But then this too takes place in the world of medicine, and doctors know but do not tell about fellow doctors who do bad work. But among doctors, you can locate the bad doctors often because of a record of lawsuits for malpractice. Had bad doctors been removed by other means, then there would be fewer law suits, and that would result in lower insurance rates.
There is in some instance in Chicago whistle blowers who inform on bad cops, but this still has to be done anonymously.
posted by Postroad at 12:53 PM on December 17, 2015
There is in some instance in Chicago whistle blowers who inform on bad cops, but this still has to be done anonymously.
posted by Postroad at 12:53 PM on December 17, 2015
So... what you're saying here is that Rahm Emmanuel doesn't actually hold them down, while *ALL* the cops beat 'em?!
posted by markkraft at 12:57 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by markkraft at 12:57 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I realize that the number of actual complaints are the only information we really have to go on, but underlying all of that is some other number, of still-significant incidents which do not result in a complaint, where the would-be-complainant doesn't even bother to report.
Which now-convicted rapist Daniel Holtzclaw deliberately exploited, targeting women with histories of drug use and/or sex work. The investigation started when he assaulted a woman with a clean record, who reported his attack immediately after.
posted by Gelatin at 12:58 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Which now-convicted rapist Daniel Holtzclaw deliberately exploited, targeting women with histories of drug use and/or sex work. The investigation started when he assaulted a woman with a clean record, who reported his attack immediately after.
posted by Gelatin at 12:58 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm not much of a language prescriptivist, but I do really, really feel that the transition of the phrase "a few bad apples" to meaning "it's not a big deal, really" is a big mistake and that we should re-acquaint those using it in that way to the full phrase.
posted by nubs at 1:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by nubs at 1:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
Either way the, I don't know, emotionally satisfying "fuck em all, let's just start over" approach is never going to happen in real life. So do we just throw our hands up in despair of anything improving ever?
I'd just like to point out that, if you are interested in real solutions and not throwing your hands up in despair, there are a couple of links upthread you might be interested in checking out. So, you know, maybe click on them.
posted by duffell at 1:01 PM on December 17, 2015
I'd just like to point out that, if you are interested in real solutions and not throwing your hands up in despair, there are a couple of links upthread you might be interested in checking out. So, you know, maybe click on them.
posted by duffell at 1:01 PM on December 17, 2015
What a pain in the ass that it takes continued lawsuits to extract this sort of information.
Or that the cops seek to destroy the records.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:02 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Or that the cops seek to destroy the records.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:02 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
How many people will even bother to file a complaint when they know that nothing will come of it?
posted by indubitable at 1:03 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 1:03 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not worth an FPP, I think, but it is worth noting: ALL of 538’s data is on github.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:06 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 1:06 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
In most contexts, I think I'd find myself siding with labor and saying you shouldn't look into removing people from their jobs just because they have been the subject of unverified complaints, but I find myself imagining what an improvement it would be if the officers who are the subject of 50% or more of the complaints could be fired.
posted by Area Man at 1:09 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Area Man at 1:09 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
“That’s what the ‘few bad apples’ theory doesn’t capture: the kind of compounding, metastasizing arms that flow from the impunity of bad cops,” Kalven said.
OMG! It's almost like the idea of how having a few bad apples spoil the bunch!
Ok, I will stop derailing on this now.
posted by nubs at 1:10 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
OMG! It's almost like the idea of how having a few bad apples spoil the bunch!
Ok, I will stop derailing on this now.
posted by nubs at 1:10 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
As axiom points out above, the conversation about whether or not #allcops are murderers is tedious and unfruitful. We all know that a significant fraction of police are cheats and thieves and murderers and rapists. We all know that some police could be decent enough guys but nevertheless cover for/aid and abet their crooked comrades when necessary. We also know that some police are legitimately good people — these are the whistleblowers. They get fired if they're lucky and shot if they're not.
Moreover, the normative conversation — "should cops be doing this?" — is also tedious and unfruitful; we all know that police are committing moral wrongs when they attack community members, that cops are (despite the relative lack of danger in their jobs) trained to be very jumpy and paranoid, and that although the job of a police officer may on rare occasion make it morally just for the person in that job to beat or kill other people, actually existing police beat and kill (and rob and extort and rape) other people much, much more often than they need to. The normative conversation is unnecessary because we reached an answer a long time ago.
We also know that police guilds have independent bases of power that allow them to successfully reject attempts by democratically elected officials to rein them in. We've seen this happen over the course of the last decade in Oakland, Seattle, New York — hey, remember when the NYPD threw a hissy fit over DeBlasio stating the obvious about the risks police present to children of color? — St. Louis, Baltimore, Chicago, and the list just keeps growing.
We know that police are negative presences in our communities. We know that we know it. We know that they know it. We know they won't change, because they are content with the situation. We know that they have too much power for citizens to reform them — in de facto terms, police chiefs outrank mayors and city councillors, even though de jure police chiefs are typically subordinate to elected officials . As such, we must instead be having realistic conversations about mitigation strategies to protect ourselves and our neighbors from police activity, rather than simply rehashing the already decided question of whether or not it is in a moral sense wrong for police to behave as they do.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
Moreover, the normative conversation — "should cops be doing this?" — is also tedious and unfruitful; we all know that police are committing moral wrongs when they attack community members, that cops are (despite the relative lack of danger in their jobs) trained to be very jumpy and paranoid, and that although the job of a police officer may on rare occasion make it morally just for the person in that job to beat or kill other people, actually existing police beat and kill (and rob and extort and rape) other people much, much more often than they need to. The normative conversation is unnecessary because we reached an answer a long time ago.
We also know that police guilds have independent bases of power that allow them to successfully reject attempts by democratically elected officials to rein them in. We've seen this happen over the course of the last decade in Oakland, Seattle, New York — hey, remember when the NYPD threw a hissy fit over DeBlasio stating the obvious about the risks police present to children of color? — St. Louis, Baltimore, Chicago, and the list just keeps growing.
We know that police are negative presences in our communities. We know that we know it. We know that they know it. We know they won't change, because they are content with the situation. We know that they have too much power for citizens to reform them — in de facto terms, police chiefs outrank mayors and city councillors, even though de jure police chiefs are typically subordinate to elected officials . As such, we must instead be having realistic conversations about mitigation strategies to protect ourselves and our neighbors from police activity, rather than simply rehashing the already decided question of whether or not it is in a moral sense wrong for police to behave as they do.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm not much of a language prescriptivist, but I do really, really feel that the transition of the phrase "a few bad apples" to meaning "it's not a big deal, really" is a big mistake and that we should re-acquaint those using it in that way to the full phrase.
IIRC, the "a few bad apples" defense was similarly used to hand-wave prisoner abuse at Abu Gharib.
posted by duffell at 1:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
IIRC, the "a few bad apples" defense was similarly used to hand-wave prisoner abuse at Abu Gharib.
posted by duffell at 1:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A few comments deleted; let's skip the personal fight.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:25 PM on December 17, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:25 PM on December 17, 2015
I'm not sure if this was aimed at me or not,
It was not. It was aimed, generally, at a cavalier implication that I see in the linked article. I gave a cursory read of the thread, but was not directly or indirectly addressing anyone and don't even know which comment was yours or what you, particularly, said.
I think we can probably agree that the structure of police forces doesn't make it easy to weed out bad police.
We agree on this, and that's actually what I'm trying to say, that there is a systemic problem with police protecting bad police. The linked article seems to be ignoring that, in my opinion.
posted by shmegegge at 1:25 PM on December 17, 2015
It was not. It was aimed, generally, at a cavalier implication that I see in the linked article. I gave a cursory read of the thread, but was not directly or indirectly addressing anyone and don't even know which comment was yours or what you, particularly, said.
I think we can probably agree that the structure of police forces doesn't make it easy to weed out bad police.
We agree on this, and that's actually what I'm trying to say, that there is a systemic problem with police protecting bad police. The linked article seems to be ignoring that, in my opinion.
posted by shmegegge at 1:25 PM on December 17, 2015
Funny how the criminal justice academics never talk about the "broken window theory" as it applies within the police force.
posted by JackFlash at 1:31 PM on December 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 1:31 PM on December 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
As axiom points out above, the conversation about whether or not #allcops are murderers is tedious and unfruitful. We all know that a significant fraction of police are cheats and thieves and murderers and rapists. We all know that some police could be decent enough guys but nevertheless cover for/aid and abet their crooked comrades when necessary. We also know that some police are legitimately good people — these are the whistleblowers. They get fired if they're lucky and shot if they're not.
I reject the assumption that the only police who are “legitimately good people” are the whistle blowers.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:31 PM on December 17, 2015
I reject the assumption that the only police who are “legitimately good people” are the whistle blowers.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:31 PM on December 17, 2015
Data mine the watchmen.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:42 PM on December 17, 2015
posted by Apocryphon at 1:42 PM on December 17, 2015
I wish we had statistics on which officers are arresting folks for certain types of crimes. In my (very limited) experience in Minnesota, the charge of obstructing legal process is used when a person struggles or fights in response to a police officer's improper use of force. It can also be used legitimately, of course, but I'd look askance at any officer who was having to frequently arrest people for obstruction. I think good officers know how to de-escalate situations so the issue of whether someone is physically interfering with police business rarely arises.
posted by Area Man at 1:48 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Area Man at 1:48 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
> I reject the assumption that the only police who are “legitimately good people” are the whistle blowers.
If you want to take that risk, go ahead. but don't say you weren't warned.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:01 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you want to take that risk, go ahead. but don't say you weren't warned.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:01 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
less snidely: if you can figure out a way to activate and empower the hypothetical silent majority of police who are decent people — who just go along with their crooked comrades to get along — please do so. Obviously, we disagree about whether or not this hypothetical good silent majority exists. If they do, they don't matter unless there is some way to convince them that they need to suppress and (ideally) expel their comrades, and also unless there is some way to give them the institutional power to actually go ahead and do it.
I don't see any available mechanism for a hypothetical silent majority of good cops to fix policing from the inside. If you want to work on finding one, feel free. In the meantime, we need to work to mitigate the damage caused by policing as it actually exists rather than debating the quality of the souls of hypothetical disempowered good cops.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:06 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't see any available mechanism for a hypothetical silent majority of good cops to fix policing from the inside. If you want to work on finding one, feel free. In the meantime, we need to work to mitigate the damage caused by policing as it actually exists rather than debating the quality of the souls of hypothetical disempowered good cops.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:06 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
In my (very limited) experience in Minnesota, the charge of obstructing legal process is used when a person struggles or fights in response to a police officer's improper use of force
Well the data suggests that if a complaint is made about an officer for a certain kind of misconduct, then there is a greater likelihood that future complaints against that officer will be made for the same offence. This not only argues that a major number of the complaints are not "frivolous", but it also suggests that correlating complaints for excessive use of force and charges of obstruction by the same officer could be very telling, even if the events themselves were separate.
posted by kisch mokusch at 2:16 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well the data suggests that if a complaint is made about an officer for a certain kind of misconduct, then there is a greater likelihood that future complaints against that officer will be made for the same offence. This not only argues that a major number of the complaints are not "frivolous", but it also suggests that correlating complaints for excessive use of force and charges of obstruction by the same officer could be very telling, even if the events themselves were separate.
posted by kisch mokusch at 2:16 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I look forward to the day when police departments enact the same Broken Windows enforcement actions internally that they insist are the only way to prevent crimes in the communities they police. /not really holding my breath
posted by rtha at 2:19 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by rtha at 2:19 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
less snidely: if you can figure out a way to activate and empower the hypothetical silent majority of police who are decent people — who just go along with their crooked comrades to get along — please do so. Obviously, we disagree about whether or not this hypothetical good silent majority exists.
I’m not talking about some “silent majority”. I’m just rejecting a dichotomy that posits that the only “good” police are those who engage in whistle-blowing against the establishment, in the same way that I would reject the argument that the only “good” members of any organization are those who actively protest its practices. I care less about the souls of police than I do about the souls of everyone else in the world who’s just trying to get by.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:55 PM on December 17, 2015
I’m not talking about some “silent majority”. I’m just rejecting a dichotomy that posits that the only “good” police are those who engage in whistle-blowing against the establishment, in the same way that I would reject the argument that the only “good” members of any organization are those who actively protest its practices. I care less about the souls of police than I do about the souls of everyone else in the world who’s just trying to get by.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:55 PM on December 17, 2015
Well the data suggests that if a complaint is made about an officer for a certain kind of misconduct, then there is a greater likelihood that future complaints against that officer will be made for the same offence. This not only argues that a major number of the complaints are not "frivolous", but it also suggests that correlating complaints for excessive use of force and charges of obstruction by the same officer could be very telling, even if the events themselves were separate.
Yes, I wish there were departments out there using data in just that sort of way to identify their problem officers. Of course, I think they'd mostly identify the very officers the captains, lieutenants, and sergeants already know about or suspect.
posted by Area Man at 3:06 PM on December 17, 2015
Yes, I wish there were departments out there using data in just that sort of way to identify their problem officers. Of course, I think they'd mostly identify the very officers the captains, lieutenants, and sergeants already know about or suspect.
posted by Area Man at 3:06 PM on December 17, 2015
The unwritten oath of silence among the police is akin the the mafia or ghetto unspoken rule of not ratting out your own...But then this too takes place...
It's easy for people to see the Blue Wall of Silence as some kind of separate, unique behavior, but the roots of it are in everyone. It's just the power of the job amplifies the effects. Understanding that this instinct to "protect one's own" is within all of us is paramount when it comes to specifically figuring out ways to address the negative aspects of "cop culture."
Consider the choices you have made in your own life in regards to the actions of family, friends, employers, and co-workers that have been improper, wrong, or even illegal, no matter how small. Did you report it or confront them directly in some way, or did you let it slide because "that was a one time thing, they're really not like that," or "what am I, a tattle-tale?," or "should one mistake of an otherwise good person end a career?" or "I'll lose my job, or my chances at promotion, or possibly cause everyone to lose their jobs"or "yeah, but that other guy had it coming," or "they have a family to support, and saying something will put them on the street, or cause a divorce, or have their children taken away" if I 'make an issue' out of this. The basic structure of that decision process is the same no matter who you are.
So a way must be found to instill/re-restablish within every police officer and administrator that finding and removing wrongdoing inside the organization takes first precedence over everything else, regardless of the consequences. For it not to be eventually rationalized away one good reason at a time to an empty directive, the police must accept, with the same level of seriousness that comes with accepting a job that carries with it the possibility that they may lose their lives in the line of duty, that there may come a time when they must bring one of their own to justice. They must do so even if it means investigations are ruined and crimes go unpunished, the careers and reputations of fellow officers are ruined, etc.
Unless a way can be found to establish such a directive, both on paper AND in their beliefs, so that it steps in and makes the decision between looking the other way and reporting it, the Blue Wall will continue to provide a place for corruption to remain, each instance of it secure with their own pragmatic rationalizations of why it was justified and backed by a twisted view of the power of the badge.
But who am I kidding? Such a thing would never happen in a thousand years, and another 10,000 or so in Chicago. I might be on to something about that moment of decision being the crux of the matter, but if one could find a way to effectively address those moments, you'd be solving about a million other problems with civilization at the same time.
posted by chambers at 3:47 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's easy for people to see the Blue Wall of Silence as some kind of separate, unique behavior, but the roots of it are in everyone. It's just the power of the job amplifies the effects. Understanding that this instinct to "protect one's own" is within all of us is paramount when it comes to specifically figuring out ways to address the negative aspects of "cop culture."
Consider the choices you have made in your own life in regards to the actions of family, friends, employers, and co-workers that have been improper, wrong, or even illegal, no matter how small. Did you report it or confront them directly in some way, or did you let it slide because "that was a one time thing, they're really not like that," or "what am I, a tattle-tale?," or "should one mistake of an otherwise good person end a career?" or "I'll lose my job, or my chances at promotion, or possibly cause everyone to lose their jobs"or "yeah, but that other guy had it coming," or "they have a family to support, and saying something will put them on the street, or cause a divorce, or have their children taken away" if I 'make an issue' out of this. The basic structure of that decision process is the same no matter who you are.
So a way must be found to instill/re-restablish within every police officer and administrator that finding and removing wrongdoing inside the organization takes first precedence over everything else, regardless of the consequences. For it not to be eventually rationalized away one good reason at a time to an empty directive, the police must accept, with the same level of seriousness that comes with accepting a job that carries with it the possibility that they may lose their lives in the line of duty, that there may come a time when they must bring one of their own to justice. They must do so even if it means investigations are ruined and crimes go unpunished, the careers and reputations of fellow officers are ruined, etc.
Unless a way can be found to establish such a directive, both on paper AND in their beliefs, so that it steps in and makes the decision between looking the other way and reporting it, the Blue Wall will continue to provide a place for corruption to remain, each instance of it secure with their own pragmatic rationalizations of why it was justified and backed by a twisted view of the power of the badge.
But who am I kidding? Such a thing would never happen in a thousand years, and another 10,000 or so in Chicago. I might be on to something about that moment of decision being the crux of the matter, but if one could find a way to effectively address those moments, you'd be solving about a million other problems with civilization at the same time.
posted by chambers at 3:47 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
How many people will even bother to file a complaint when they know that nothing will come of it?
And how many people would be too scared to file a complaint? If I were in that situation I'd definitely assume that the cop I'm reporting or one of their buddies will find out about me and my report.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:48 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
And how many people would be too scared to file a complaint? If I were in that situation I'd definitely assume that the cop I'm reporting or one of their buddies will find out about me and my report.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:48 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
A Modest Proposal: decimation of the police force.
I mean, I'm kind of joking, but I'm also kind of not. Though obviously we shouldn't kill them or anything.
posted by yasaman at 5:03 PM on December 17, 2015
I mean, I'm kind of joking, but I'm also kind of not. Though obviously we shouldn't kill them or anything.
posted by yasaman at 5:03 PM on December 17, 2015
A Modest Proposal: decimation of the police force.
Ah! So something like The Trenton Solution. Hopefully a 10% decrease won't be quite as devastating as a 30% one…
posted by Going To Maine at 6:44 PM on December 17, 2015
Ah! So something like The Trenton Solution. Hopefully a 10% decrease won't be quite as devastating as a 30% one…
posted by Going To Maine at 6:44 PM on December 17, 2015
How many of these are legit complaints? Hard to say.
Have you ever tried to file a complaint?
There's plenty of writeups and videos like this out there.
They quite often wont take the complaint. I've tried. I ended up leaving when i realized i was going to have to seriously be an asshole to even get anyone to listen and might end up stuck in there for hours in a locked room or something.
posted by emptythought at 10:23 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Have you ever tried to file a complaint?
There's plenty of writeups and videos like this out there.
They quite often wont take the complaint. I've tried. I ended up leaving when i realized i was going to have to seriously be an asshole to even get anyone to listen and might end up stuck in there for hours in a locked room or something.
posted by emptythought at 10:23 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think we can probably agree that the structure of police forces doesn't make it easy to weed out bad police. What can be done about that?
Give any GOOD COP who rats on a Bad Cop the Bad ex-Cop's accrued pension benefit in cash as a reward.
posted by mikelieman at 1:09 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Give any GOOD COP who rats on a Bad Cop the Bad ex-Cop's accrued pension benefit in cash as a reward.
posted by mikelieman at 1:09 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
The actual percentage of multiple-complaint officers is fairly clearly addressed in the article.
posted by slkinsey at 5:36 AM on December 18, 2015
Repeaters only make up a small fraction of the more than 12,000 officers on Chicago’s force — perhaps 1 percent to 10 percent of the officers in the database, depending on where you draw the line — but are responsible for a huge fraction of the complaints: 10 percent of the officers who had received complaints generated 30 percent of the total departmental complaints since 2011.Presumably the 10% refers to all officers wth more than one complaint and the 1% refers to those with four or more complaints.
posted by slkinsey at 5:36 AM on December 18, 2015
Give any GOOD COP who rats on a Bad Cop the Bad ex-Cop's accrued pension benefit in cash as a reward.
Or, at a minimum require all payouts for police abuse to come from either the police pension fund or the union and not tax payers. There's a conflict of interest when citizens are essentially suing themselves. I'd also require all police to carry malpractice insurance, again, paid for by them or their union and when you are too expensive to employ you need to find new work.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:10 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Or, at a minimum require all payouts for police abuse to come from either the police pension fund or the union and not tax payers. There's a conflict of interest when citizens are essentially suing themselves. I'd also require all police to carry malpractice insurance, again, paid for by them or their union and when you are too expensive to employ you need to find new work.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:10 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Keep in mind when looking at these numbers that not all cops are on the street. A lot of cops are actually off the street and mostly isolated from public interaction. So the numbers are even worse than they immediately look. There are somewhere around 6000-7000 beat cops.
posted by srboisvert at 6:57 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 6:57 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
There is also a recent Chicago Reader review of a book on Chicago's latino gang history that claims that at one point a mob-like structure, the SGD, actively placed some of its gang members into CPD as recuits in Departed style. The big gang structure imploded but there might still be CPD officers who were actually organized crime infiltrators.
posted by srboisvert at 7:10 AM on December 18, 2015
posted by srboisvert at 7:10 AM on December 18, 2015
A question that frequently arises in retrospective analyses such as this one is how predictive is the model going forward? Well, courtesy of the CPD we now have some new data to test the predictive power of 538's models (just as soon as they name the officers involved):
Officer Fatally Shoots 2 People After Domestic Dispute Saturday Morning
Officer Fatally Shoots 2 People After Domestic Dispute Saturday Morning
An officer shot and killed two people after responding to a domestic disturbance in Austin [a neighborhood on Chicago's west side] early Saturday morning, police said.ABC7 reports...
Around 4:25 a.m., officers were called to the residence in the 4700 block of West Erie Street, where they "were confronted by a combative subject resulting in the discharging of an officer's weapon," according to a statement released by police later Saturday morning.
Two people were killed, the statement said.
One of the victims was 19-year-old Quintonio Legrier, who she said was in college studying engineering, but had a mental illness, said his mother, Janet Cooksey. Police responded to the scene after the 19-year-old's father called 911 saying that his son was holding a metal baseball bat and acting erratic.... and that's not all:
"He was having a mental situation. Sometimes he will get loud, but not violent," Cookery said.
The second victim was a 56-year-old woman who was a downstairs tenant in the building.
In a separate incident at 3 a.m. Saturday, an officer fired shots during a traffic stop near the Eisenhower Expressway at the Independence Exit.posted by Westringia F. at 11:20 AM on December 26, 2015
Police confirmed the shooting, but the circumstances of the incident remain unclear. No one was injured, but a witness said police were reckless in shooting at his son. One car window appeared to be broken due to the shooting.
(Oh, and that 55-year-old woman? Her name was Bettie Jones, and her "crime" was coming to the door in a nightgown when the police knocked; she was shot three times. The 19-year-old was shot five times. [source])
posted by Westringia F. at 11:31 AM on December 26, 2015
posted by Westringia F. at 11:31 AM on December 26, 2015
(Oh, and that 55-year-old woman? Her name was Bettie Jones, and her "crime" was coming to the door in a nightgown when the police knocked; she was shot three times. The 19-year-old was shot five times. [source])
When the police do this: They're broken and need to be fixed.
There are 1600 jurisdictions in the country, so we're not going to do it with Grand Juries and Civil Suits.
Here's my suggestion. If a cop fires his weapon, his career is over. He's cashed out, and can go find another job. We can't have the risk of him doing it again, and it'll serve as a deterrent to those who use lethal force without truly being justified.
A policy of: "Shoot a suspect and you might save your life. You'll definitely end your career." will make cops keep in their holster unless they really need it. and keep them from murdering a 55 year old woman in her nightgown answering the door.
posted by mikelieman at 2:48 PM on December 26, 2015
Why is the Chicago PD trying to force Rahm to resign?
posted by rhizome at 12:37 AM on December 27, 2015
posted by rhizome at 12:37 AM on December 27, 2015
Yesterday's killing of two people by the CPD [more info: the constantly-updated & changing coverage by DNAinfo and ABC-7 I posted above; police dispatch audio; a terse & perfunctory CPD statement; article in the NYT] was not the only CPD shooting yesterday.
Later in the day, Chicago police and SWAT officers swarmed a block in response to reports of a fight and shot a man five times, sending 23-year-old Mekel Lumpkin to the hospital in critical condition.
Meanwhile, the mother of Terrance Gilbert, a 25-year-old man who was shot to death on Christmas Day last year, has sued the city of Chicago and the police officers involved. According to the Chicago Tribune, the Independent Police Review Authority (IRPA, whose job it is to police the police), "was investigating the shooting, but its website lists no results of an investigation" a year later. Last I read, the IPRA also declined to comment on any of yesterday's officer-involved shootings.
Saturday's CPD killings add another two to the data just published by the Washington Post on fatal police shootings in 2015, bringing the national total from 965 as of Christmas eve to at least 967 today.
posted by Westringia F. at 5:41 AM on December 27, 2015
Later in the day, Chicago police and SWAT officers swarmed a block in response to reports of a fight and shot a man five times, sending 23-year-old Mekel Lumpkin to the hospital in critical condition.
Meanwhile, the mother of Terrance Gilbert, a 25-year-old man who was shot to death on Christmas Day last year, has sued the city of Chicago and the police officers involved. According to the Chicago Tribune, the Independent Police Review Authority (IRPA, whose job it is to police the police), "was investigating the shooting, but its website lists no results of an investigation" a year later. Last I read, the IPRA also declined to comment on any of yesterday's officer-involved shootings.
Saturday's CPD killings add another two to the data just published by the Washington Post on fatal police shootings in 2015, bringing the national total from 965 as of Christmas eve to at least 967 today.
posted by Westringia F. at 5:41 AM on December 27, 2015
> Here's my suggestion. If a cop fires his weapon, his career is over. He's cashed out, and can go find another job.
The trouble is that at that point it's already too damn late for the person on the receiving end of the bullet. With over 12,000 officers on Chicago's force, that's a lot of room for first strikes, and I can't say the conduct of the CPD has made me particularly comfortable with that risk.
posted by Westringia F. at 5:52 AM on December 27, 2015
The trouble is that at that point it's already too damn late for the person on the receiving end of the bullet. With over 12,000 officers on Chicago's force, that's a lot of room for first strikes, and I can't say the conduct of the CPD has made me particularly comfortable with that risk.
posted by Westringia F. at 5:52 AM on December 27, 2015
I think it's a bit facile to inveigh against police officers ever using guns at all.
posted by rhizome at 12:56 PM on December 27, 2015
posted by rhizome at 12:56 PM on December 27, 2015
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posted by Gelatin at 12:02 PM on December 17, 2015 [52 favorites]